More Thoughts on Second Base
by Grant on Jun 23, 2009 12:59 PM PDT
158 comments
Oof. This is the part of the job that I don't like. See, I like Matt Downs. I like the idea, the concept, of Matt Downs. He has a little pop. He makes contact. He plays six positions, and he can run a little bit. It isn't going to take much to make him a back-of-the-bench guy on a good team.
Maybe he'll be a starter one day. Maybe that day is right now. Maybe his Fresno numbers weren't indicative of his true performance level, and maybe he'll settle in at second for the next few years. Weirder things have happened to just about every team in the league. Mark DeRosa was a 26-year-old infielder hitting .291/.351/.425 in AAA in 2002, but he peaked in the majors after he turned 30. I'm not writing anyone off who has shown even a modicum of hitting ability at any level.
But when the Giants say they're going to give Matt Downs the bulk of the at-bats at second, does anyone have any confidence that they're looking for the right things? My hypothesis: Downs's performance in about 100 at-bats will dictate everything. Not his raw minor league numbers, not his adjusted minor league numbers, and not a detailed scouting report or a hit chart. If Downs gets eighteen solid singles, two doubles, and ten broken-bat infield hits, the decision-makers will say he's "seeing the ball well right now" and "they're going to ride the hot hand."
I'm not nuts about starting Kevin Frandsen. If anything, I'm worried that he has the ability to sustain an empty .285/.335/.350, and that will keep him employed for years to come. ZiPS says Downs's averages will be around .271/.318/.404; ZiPS says Frandsen's only good for .261/.320/.357. So don't take this as a "Frandsen deserves to start"-post. I do think Frandsen deserves more of a chance than Downs, even if only because Frandsen's been waiting for a chance for several years. But if your argument is that Downs is more likely to be a productive major league hitter than Frandsen, I'll accept that.
I have no confidence that the Giants will evaluate this well, though. Manny Burriss's hot August last year and his hot March this year meant more than the aggregate total of every other at-bat he had ever taken in his professional career. That was a little bit of a miscalculation.
Am I making too much out of Matt Downs getting a few at-bats? Probably. Almost certainly, even. But I don't know what will be more frustrating: Downs going 10-for-100, and the Giants ignoring him for the next four years, or Downs going 29-for-100, and the Giants deciding that they don't need to upgrade the infield at the trading deadline. The overarching point of this post in a one-sentence blurb: I don't think the next 100 at-bats should be the final word on Matt Downs's ability to play baseball, but I root for an organization that will read waaaaaay too much into those 100 at-bats.
Next time, I'll just cut out the thesis sentence and make it a FanShot. Your thoughts, if you would.
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Also of note: I’m using the “continue reading this post” thingie from now on. I’m tired of my genius getting pushed onto the next page after two days.
No problem here...
What’s harder, clicking a “jump” button or flipping through six pages of newspaper or 100 pages of magazine to get to the end of a story? Man, the Internetz have made us all lazy.
(Of course, I use the same thing on my bloggy thing, so I may be biased here.)
by Bay Area Sports Guy on Jun 23, 2009 1:06 PM PDT up reply actions
Half the time I accidentally press “comments” instead, and end up only reading the first paragraph.
Adoptive parent of Noah Lowry.
:-(
just like how Grant misses nothing when he writes his post game threads in the 7th and 8th innings
Brand new adoptive daddy for the Big Unit. Congrats go out to my son for his 300th win. Only 211 more wins until he catches Cy Young!
by Speedforthewin on Jun 23, 2009 1:12 PM PDT up reply actions
The 100 AB’s thing is pretty fair, I think. Remember DAN ORTMEIER and his super-terrific-awesome string of 157 at-bats in 2007? He hit: .287/.317/.497 and was immediately put into the 1B starting role for the next season.
Dan Ortmeier was briefly our starting first baseman. Dan. Ort. Meier.
Thankfully, the team came to their senses.
but the team came to their senses over like 50 AB in spring training. This organization has shown it’s love for SSS statistics over and over again.
Brand new adoptive daddy for the Big Unit. Congrats go out to my son for his 300th win. Only 211 more wins until he catches Cy Young!
by Speedforthewin on Jun 23, 2009 1:06 PM PDT up reply actions
no, I believe Rich Aurilia did. Ortmieier hit poorly in ST and lost the job, if I remember correctly
Brand new adoptive daddy for the Big Unit. Congrats go out to my son for his 300th win. Only 211 more wins until he catches Cy Young!
by Speedforthewin on Jun 23, 2009 1:08 PM PDT up reply actions
Yeah, looks like you’re both right. I just checked his gamelog.
Still, it’s a pretty bad idea. I still remember hearing Ort and Frandsen on KNBR all the time and how they were going to BRING ENERGY, YOUTH, and a SWAGGER GRITTUDE to the clubhouse.
lol.
Yeah, but you are right about how the giants do things. I mean, Brian Bocock is on the 40 man roster, how seriously can we take the front office.
Brand new adoptive daddy for the Big Unit. Congrats go out to my son for his 300th win. Only 211 more wins until he catches Cy Young!
by Speedforthewin on Jun 23, 2009 1:11 PM PDT up reply actions
Nothing like scared youngsters to bring SWAGGER. What, is it because the young guys use this?
by Bay Area Sports Guy on Jun 23, 2009 1:13 PM PDT up reply actions
Swagger, It smells like Aaron Rowand running into a wall
Brand new adoptive daddy for the Big Unit. Congrats go out to my son for his 300th win. Only 211 more wins until he catches Cy Young!
by Speedforthewin on Jun 23, 2009 1:15 PM PDT up reply actions
When did this site become Twitter?
by Bay Area Sports Guy on Jun 23, 2009 1:19 PM PDT up reply actions
nasty shit style
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Jun 23, 2009 2:42 PM PDT up reply actions
i really am curious about that moment
when Aaron picked up a bat, and had a coach/mentor tell him “now, stand like you’re teabagging the plate…attaboy”
LMFAO
Holy Shit!!!!!!!!!!!!
Oakland Raiders Fan
Golden State Warriors Fan
San Francisco Giants Fan
San Jose Sharks Fan
MMA Fan
USC Trojan Fan
by i love sports101 on Jun 23, 2009 10:11 PM PDT up reply actions
Bochy doesn’t seem to like energy and swagger in his youth. That’s why Ort was banished without getting much of a chance and Frandsen might as well be. Good ole Boch prefers quiet, boring guys like himself.
by crazedcrustacean on Jun 23, 2009 5:29 PM PDT up reply actions
"swaggrittude"
i think we have our new Giants advertising slogan for 2010
On 5/7, the best part of waking is up LOLDGERS in my cup.
And I mean:
he 100 AB’s thing is pretty fair, I think.
By that’s how the Giants actually do things. Not that it’s actually fair.
ok, i can see your point
Brand new adoptive daddy for the Big Unit. Congrats go out to my son for his 300th win. Only 211 more wins until he catches Cy Young!
by Speedforthewin on Jun 23, 2009 1:07 PM PDT up reply actions
who the fuck is Dan Ortmeier?
Randy Winn is going to catch that. And he'll do it real classy-like too.
A powerless contact hitter currently playing for Colorado’s Triple-A team. Something tells me he would have really done a lot better before the days of drug testing.
by Bay Area Sports Guy on Jun 23, 2009 1:26 PM PDT up reply actions
Downs is the new Denker: last year there was no forseeable difference between sticking denker, frandsen or burriss at 2B and this year I see little to no difference between sticking downs at second over Frandsen or Burriss long term. 2 of them will probably stick with the team over multiple seasons, though in what roles are to be determined. Long story short, I see no problem is Downs if the 2B for the rest of the season, though admittedly I have a soft spot in my heart for Frandsen.
Brand new adoptive daddy for the Big Unit. Congrats go out to my son for his 300th win. Only 211 more wins until he catches Cy Young!
does that mean he’s a prospect now?
Brand new adoptive daddy for the Big Unit. Congrats go out to my son for his 300th win. Only 211 more wins until he catches Cy Young!
by Speedforthewin on Jun 23, 2009 1:13 PM PDT up reply actions
15 teams since 2003. Poor guy, that has to suck.
Proud father of Juan Carlos Perez. Think Albert Pujols at second.
hes one well traveled Denker
Minor White > Ansel Adams
by say hey nation on Jun 23, 2009 1:24 PM PDT up reply actions
he left his bat on the west coast, though
Randy Winn is going to catch that. And he'll do it real classy-like too.
he couldn’t cut it with the Padres organization.
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Jun 23, 2009 2:43 PM PDT up reply actions
If you can't hit well enough for the Padres,
you’re probably pursuing the wrong career.
Extremely proud adoptive parent of Paul E. Stanley, hacker extraordinaire
Thanks to roger
I've never been happier to have Crabs
I like Matt Downs
However, he should be sent back to the minors when they can call up Frandsen.
Ultimately, I think the difference between the 2 is negligible.
by Lars The Wanderer on Jun 23, 2009 1:06 PM PDT reply actions
I think this also needs to be considered
Downs and Frandsen both go great with soup.
by Lars The Wanderer on Jun 23, 2009 1:08 PM PDT up reply actions
Ritz?
Saltine?
Goldfish?
Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."
There's 3 ways to do something: the right way, the wrong way, and the Max Power/ Ginats Way...
by natteringnabob on Jun 23, 2009 1:42 PM PDT up reply actions
me too
Oakland Raiders Fan
Golden State Warriors Fan
San Francisco Giants Fan
San Jose Sharks Fan
MMA Fan
USC Trojan Fan
by i love sports101 on Jun 23, 2009 10:12 PM PDT up reply actions
Copy/Pasted becase I'm lazy and I think my thoughts are so important that you ALL need to read and agree with them...
You know
Consolidating some thoughts here…
The Frandsen thing is very confusing to me. The guy has literally the best career MiL line of any position player in the Giants farm in 10 years (in 2006 @ age 23 he OPS’ed .861 across 3 levels including a 1.024 OPS in 94 AB’s in AAA), plays at a position of need, has a great attitude (christ, he hung out in the dugout w/ the team ALL last year w/ a torn achillies) and in his (extremely) limited ML opportunities made good contact and has hit the ball on the screws. (Career 18 LD%, 10.6 k%)
He’s been totally BABIP screwed (.259 ML career, .080 2009) while in the ML.
But for some reason, the Giants management seems to try to play everyone BUT Frandsen – it’s as if he is a last resort. First he spent 2007 sitting behind an extremely under peforming Durham. 2008 out w/ the Achillies, 2009 lost job to a 22 year old guy w/ 62 AB’s in AA of .566 OPS as his largest pro accomplishment.
Now that the position is again available – the team roots around and finds Downs, a questionable prospect, a guy who was OPSing .786 in AAA – his best MiL performance, to date.
A guy who’s BEST AAA season (this year) is worse than Frandsens worst. A guy who is OPSing almost 300 points lower than Frandsen in the same exact environment, for the same exact team. 300 freaking points. That’s like the difference between Rowand and Pujols.
It just doesn’t make ANY sense. Kevin is probably not going to be a great hitter in the ML (That’s what the MiL splits say), but what all of the available evidence suggests, without question, is that he will be a better hitter than Burriss, Downs, Velez, or any of the other clowns that the Giants have tried at second instead of him.
He would also likely be a much better hitter than Renteria at SS, and certainly an adequate defender.
I really just do not get it. it is either extreme incompetence on the management’s part or there is something about Kevin that we as fans do not know. The Giants track record doesn’t really suggest that they miss judge offensive talent (the list of players that fell out of our system and made it somewhere else is pretty exclusive) but it is really really hard for me to believe that Frandsen is not the Giants best in-house option for 2b right now and for 2010/2011.
MLE’s
Frandsen (2009 AAA) .289/.327/.417/.744
Downs (2009 AAA) .250/.286/.370/.656
That line would make Frandsen the 3rd best hitter on the Giants and the 16th best 2b in baseball.
All of the sentimental, touchy feely, Burris/Downs love bullshit aside, I’m really not sure how not playing Kevin makes ANY sense for this team trying to win now OR in the future.
If Kevin were black and exhibiting this type of performance relative to his peers in the business world while others got promotions, the ACLU would be all over this shit.
If the Giants are so annoyed with Frandsen...
Couldn’t they just ask him not to go on KNBR so often? Besides that, I don’t know what else he’s done wrong in such limited time — besides snapping his Achilles, of course.
by Bay Area Sports Guy on Jun 23, 2009 3:19 PM PDT up reply actions
I hope second base is what we’re targeting when we get in to trade talks because all of these options stink.
Sabean targeting anyone on the trade or free agent market scares me.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that pie > cake, that Bochy is endowed by his creator with certain undeniable traits, that among these are veteran man-love, a gigantic skull, and the pursuit of the double switch.
Adopted Giant: Fred Lewis, who can still draw a walk.
if not a trade
then i’d rather see Uribe there. I would have liked to see Uribe at SS but I know we’re not going to bench rent, so I’d rather see an infield of Pablo-Rent-Uribe-Ishi.
Let Frandsen start at 2b for the rest of the year!
Give him his shot. In the end it’s all about doing the right thing. There’s much to be said about a guy who does everything you ask of him in the minors without bitching and complaining (until a bit of a whine 2 weeks back). He fought back hard from his injury last year, played winter ball, had a good Spring and didn’t malinger and mope when they gave the jobs to Burriss and Aurilia at the end of ST. We can’t continue to screw good guys over like this (I’m putting Schierholtz in this boat). After all, let’s face it, it’s not like Downs has torn it up at Fresno or up here in SF. If he were hitting .350 with a couple of bombs then, sure, you keep him in the starting lineup and ride him until he fails (if he ever does). But that’s not the case here.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
Give him his shot. In the end it’s all about doing the right thing
Oh, God NO! Please don’t let sabean see this. Yes, life is about doing the right thing, but baseball is driven by talent and desire. I say the front office can mistreat players all they want as long as the team wins!
Minor White > Ansel Adams
by say hey nation on Jun 23, 2009 1:33 PM PDT up reply actions
Correct me if I'm wrong
I seem to recall that we’ve been above .500 for a total of about 30 days in the 2 years (not counting last year when he was injured) that Frandsen could legitimately be considered as a starter. I agree that you don’t want to always do the right thing by the players if you can get a competitive advantage doiing otherwise (as I wrote I would stick with Downs if he were playing above his Fresno numbers), but in the cases where the 2 coincide (as they do here) we’re shooting ourselves in the foot by not doing the right thing.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
I didn’t finish reading your post. And I never said I wouldn’t start Frandsen, I just think the argument is ignorant
Minor White > Ansel Adams
by say hey nation on Jun 23, 2009 2:09 PM PDT up reply actions
I guess it depends on what doing the right thing means. But in this case, Kevin has been the most deserving candidate for the 2nd base job since spring and the org has continued to give him the shaft. I know we want the best player to play and we want guys who work the hardest to get a shot, but in this case, it’s the same guy.
In any event, the org cannot continually mistreat players and expect them to play hard, especially after they see that doing so gets them nowhere.
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Jun 23, 2009 4:15 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
and a shipment of HGH
Minor White > Ansel Adams
by say hey nation on Jun 23, 2009 1:35 PM PDT up reply actions
I’m definitely in favor of that with or without Roberts.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
flaw in theory:
My hypothesis: Downs’s performance batting average and errors in about 100 at-bats will dictate everything
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
-------
PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game currently in early planning stages.
And the all-important GF (Grit Factor).
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that pie > cake, that Bochy is endowed by his creator with certain undeniable traits, that among these are veteran man-love, a gigantic skull, and the pursuit of the double switch.
Adopted Giant: Fred Lewis, who can still draw a walk.
Maybe he can win the Aaron Rowand Award! I hear it pays very nicely!
Minor White > Ansel Adams
by say hey nation on Jun 23, 2009 1:39 PM PDT up reply actions
no he's a middle IF.
it’s not his job to drive in runs.
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
-------
PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game currently in early planning stages.
I agree
dear god if he runs out one dropped pop-up for a double he’ll be firmly entrenched for the remainder of the year + next year
Watch out Sanchez... uncle Pucetas is comin' for you.
by Sammy Danger on Jun 23, 2009 2:38 PM PDT up reply actions
Hell, on this team if you can lay down a sacrifice bunt or knock in a runner from third base you’re a God.
by Bay Area Sports Guy on Jun 23, 2009 3:21 PM PDT up reply actions
To be fair, on a team with no power, those things assume more importance.
Duane Kuiper: Hall Of Fame broadcaster.
by Johnny Disaster on Jun 23, 2009 3:28 PM PDT up reply actions
Especially if some of your power-free hitters are very prone to striking out in those situations.
by Bay Area Sports Guy on Jun 23, 2009 3:34 PM PDT up reply actions
Frandsen got screwed because of timing (but mostly Giants front office). Kevin comes up to fill in for Uribe for a few games and then gets sent back down. A few days later Giants Brass decide that enough is enough with Burriss at second and send him down, but unfortunately because Frandsen can’t come back for 10 days, they bring up Matt Downs. Matt Downs gets a few hits and now he gets his chance.
Perhaps this was the Giants FO’s way of telling Frandsen to go home and get his fuckin shine box because he leaked to the media he wanted out of the organization. Either way, Frandsen should be up and Matt Downs down.
by CrispinGloversBalls on Jun 23, 2009 2:12 PM PDT reply actions
The timing thing is a little suspicious to me. They said the same thing last year when they brought Bowker up right when Nate was sitting out with a minor injury, but then they never did bring up after that. My hypothesis: this “poor timing” excuse pops up conveniently whenever a prospect they’re just not that into is getting passed over. Are we really supposed to believe that Saturday and Sunday’s games made all the difference between thinking Burriss should stay in the majors and thinking he should be sent down? His perma-slump couldn’t possibly be part of the equation on Friday when they were sending Frandsen down?
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
They actually brought up Timpner first, and then Bowker a few days later.
I heard Bochy on the pre-game show when they called up Timpner, and he said they needed him because, with Roberts hurt, they needed someone who could back up Rowand in CF. I kind of wanted to strangle my radio after that.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that pie > cake, that Bochy is endowed by his creator with certain undeniable traits, that among these are veteran man-love, a gigantic skull, and the pursuit of the double switch.
Adopted Giant: Fred Lewis, who can still draw a walk.
To be precise
He mentions Kennedy as a possible target, not that they’re interested in him. http://diamondleung.tumblr.com/post/128582736/ken-rosenthal-names-jermaine-dye-felipe-lopez-and
Judgment Day is coming
comics | art | Nattowear
Calling it right here.
Alderson, Pucetas and Neal for Holliday & Kennedy.
by AthleticsReign on Jun 23, 2009 3:04 PM PDT up reply actions
hahaha. lay of the drugs.
Prospective parent of new pick, Zack Wheeler. Projectable Righty stolen from the braves. Of course, I stalk my son's myspace: http://www.myspace.com/zackwheelerbaseball
"Obviously I’m not doing things like going toe-to-toe with a ninja. Find me a ninja, for one."--Brian Wilson
off
Prospective parent of new pick, Zack Wheeler. Projectable Righty stolen from the braves. Of course, I stalk my son's myspace: http://www.myspace.com/zackwheelerbaseball
"Obviously I’m not doing things like going toe-to-toe with a ninja. Find me a ninja, for one."--Brian Wilson
I'd rather
Lay of the drugs… but thanks!
In all seriousness. For Holliday and Kennedy, filling 2 needs the Giants have. What would it honestly be worth? Keep in mind Holliday will yield a late 1st and an early supplemental pick and the A’s don’t have to trade him due to any financial reasons. Also considering that the A’s offense is just offensively awful & they would be trading what amounts to the A’s 2 best offensive players, the A’s would need to get a great package just to let them go. So what is fair? Also would the Giants want the both of them?
by AthleticsReign on Jun 23, 2009 3:59 PM PDT up reply actions
If the A’s don’t have to trade him for financial reasons, and if he’ll net such a bounty in the draft next year, then why are you so quick to get rid of him?
Merkin Valdez? Manuel Mateo? A rose by any other name...
I am just throwing some ideas out
Last I checked I am not the GM of the A’s so I couldn’t get rid of him even if I wanted to. Since I’ve come to the realization that the A’s are going nowhere this season. I’d rather see some excitement come July at the trade deadline or before than waiting for my gratification when the next draft rolls around.
by AthleticsReign on Jun 23, 2009 5:15 PM PDT up reply actions
If the Giants window of opportunity seemed limited to this season, I think it might be different, but I don’t think this is the Giants peak season. I’d much rather sign Holliday in the offseason than trade good prospects for him now.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
I’d rather not sign him at all, frankly. He’s going to cost a crap load of money, and hasn’t shown he can hit for power outside of Coors. If he’s really just a .270/.370/.420 hitter, then he’s not worth $18M over Lewis, Nate, or Bowker.
Adoptive parent of Noah Lowry.
:-(
Well, if he’s going to make $18M, I wouldn’t want him either, but I’m not sure (if he finishes the year hitting like that and the market is depressed again this year) he’ll end up commanding that much.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
The problem is that he’s still going to be the best FA around (assuming Bay resigns with Boston). The market may be depressed, but that seems to affect the mediocre players much more than the great ones. Last year the 3 best guys around – Sabathia, Ramirez, and Teixeira – still got crazy money, and even A.J. Burnett and Francisco Rodriguez managed to get $16.5M and $13.5M respectively.
Adoptive parent of Noah Lowry.
:-(
He hasn’t? I mean, I suppose it’s only been a couple months, but he’s on pace for about 20-25 HR.
Randy Winn is in time out until his OBP gets back over .330.
I’m amazed this comment isn’t from a disgruntled Giants fan!
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that pie > cake, that Bochy is endowed by his creator with certain undeniable traits, that among these are veteran man-love, a gigantic skull, and the pursuit of the double switch.
Adopted Giant: Fred Lewis, who can still draw a walk.
why don’t we just trade Randy Winn for the A’s best outfield prospect. Kinda like a Milton Bradley (except with class) for Andre Ethier kinda trade.
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Jun 23, 2009 4:20 PM PDT up reply actions
why don’t we just throw in Mad Bum and Posey while were at it.
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Jun 23, 2009 4:23 PM PDT up reply actions
ehh….
I’ve never been much impressed with any projection that tries to transfer MILB numbers into MLB.
Sure…they have some quick and VERY VERY dirty value…but they seem so inexact as to not warrant much use. Has there been any statistical analysis of these (such that they draw out large sample size coefficient correlation numbers? If so, please tell me where.
As it is, I suspect the reliability in prediction is fairly low, so I’ll take MLB performance over, combined with a consideration of the players tools, and adjustments being made, over taking any projection system serious.
That leads me to not have much of a problem with Downs up and Frandsen not. Downs has certainly looked better in his play this year, than has Frandsen. I’m more or less indifferent as to who is playing between the two, until one is clearly struggling.
Prospective parent of new pick, Zack Wheeler. Projectable Righty stolen from the braves. Of course, I stalk my son's myspace: http://www.myspace.com/zackwheelerbaseball
"Obviously I’m not doing things like going toe-to-toe with a ninja. Find me a ninja, for one."--Brian Wilson
what I can't figure out
is how you managed to post to a blog from back in 1994. I mean that’s impressive. You would have had to set up some kind of post bot on 15 year timer…
Srs answer: It has been shown, time and time again, that minor league numbers, PROPERLY ADJUSTED FOR LEAGUE AND PARK are just as useful as the equivalent number of major league at bats. As for where this is reported, well, I sir, am not your google monkey. But I’ll give you a hint: “minor league equivalence” and “bill james”
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
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PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game currently in early planning stages.
Anicdotal Evidence...
.. to add to Grant’s DeRosa example. Heres the career minor league line for a 2B that never hit above AA ball before being promoted:
257 /.258 /.440 /.698
Any Guess?
Uggla
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Jun 23, 2009 4:49 PM PDT up reply actions
JEFF KENT
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Jun 23, 2009 4:53 PM PDT up reply actions
DING DING DING
yup.
And I realized after I posted that line that I guess I was adding anecdotal evidence to zenbitz’s post and sort of the contrary-evidence-to-support-the-same-arguement-in-reverse Grant was making about DeRosa, kind of, or something…
I like the point Grant makes in that the team may be too comfortable with a mediocre hitter in Downs. I hope not. I do wish Downs success, but I don’t believe he’s what the team needs.
I think we are running out of time. The Rockies are about to pass up the Giants at full speed. We’re not going to get anybody decent for Sanchez now unless we throw in a couple hot prospects. Manny’s coming back in a few days to a red hot Dodger team. The Brewers, Cubs and Mets are not going to be .500 teams for the rest of the season. They will be battling it out for the wild card as their records improve while the Giants stay a .500 team with excellent pitching and mediocre hitting.
Ron Wotus for Manager or Roberto Kelly.
Billy Ripken is still a douche bag.
If the Rockies and the Dodgers both continue to win at ridiculous red hot rates, then the Giants’ second baseman won’t matter. The whole team would have to go on a tear just to keep up.
co-dad of IshikaBOOM w/AfDC.
Ishikawa, let the boy hit against lefties.
Actually
I hope the Dodgers continue to beat the crap out of every team they run into. It only helps our wildcard chances.
The Rockies, not so much.
by FairweatherFan on Jun 23, 2009 2:53 PM PDT up reply actions
Feline AIDS:
It’s the number one killer of domestic cats.
(Meow meeeeoooooowwww)
by Bay Area Sports Guy on Jun 23, 2009 3:25 PM PDT up reply actions
SSS aside...
I have been impressed with Downs’ ability to work the count. The guy is seeing 4.57 P/Pa. I know this is an extreme SSS, but he would be leading the league right now in this category were he to keep up this rate. Frandsen on the other hand, saw only 3.27 P/Pa during his two stints with the team. This is lower than every regular except Bengie (3.17 P/Pa). The Giants’ offense needs batters who work the count.
Here are the numbers for P/Pa (taken from espn):
Downs 4.57
Lewis 4.14
Torres 4.02
Ishikawa 4.00
Uribe 3.80
Renteria 3.79
Winn 3.67
Sandoval 3.49
Burriss 3.49
Rowand 3.48
Schierholtz 3.37
Frandsen 3.26
Molina 3.17
that's about
3.17 times higher than I thought it would be, but I guess he fouls off and/or misses the occasional pitch.
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
-------
PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game currently in early planning stages.
LOL – I thought the 3.17 was high, too. I would have guessed somewhere between 1.25 and 2.00.
It's my blarg! Quick Pitch
Pitches per plate appearance
For 9 PA’s is 100% useless.
by FairweatherFan on Jun 23, 2009 4:34 PM PDT up reply actions
23 PA's, not 9
Yes, I understand, even 23 PA’s is not hugely indicative, but it is surely NOT useless. If you’ve watched his AB’s (as I’m sure you have), and can remember back to Frandsen’s AB’s (which weren’t that long ago), it is difficult to argue that Downs has shown superior discipline in the batter’s box. Frandsen has never shown much discipline (even in 2007 with 296 PA’s, his P/PA was 3.57).
Wouldn’t pay any attention to that with such small sample sizes. At one stage last year Bocock had a very high P/PA (4.39 in a large sample size) but it obviously didn’t mean anything, pitchers are just wary of new hitters & new hitters tend to want to see more pitches to get used to the level.
Proud parent of Waldis Joaquin!
Wait, so are you saying that the Giants should trade for Mark DeRosa? GIYANTS LINKED TO DEORSA!!!!
Merkin Valdez? Manuel Mateo? A rose by any other name...
lineup
CF Rowand
LF Torres
3B Sandoval
C Molina
1B Ishikawa
DH Winn
SS Renteria
RF Schierholtz
2B Downs
btw
its ABOUT FREAKING TIME Renteria is moved out of the two spot
yes sir
THAT is where that Deck chair should go! 7th best deck chair
AT BEST
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
-------
PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game currently in early planning stages.
I don’t understand why Winn is the DH when he’s one of our best defenders.
Judgment Day is coming
comics | art | Nattowear
alternately
isn’t the idea behind the DH to involve an extra HITTER in the game?
Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."
There's 3 ways to do something: the right way, the wrong way, and the Max Power/ Ginats Way...
by natteringnabob on Jun 23, 2009 4:34 PM PDT up reply actions
hmmm
I assume this is from Out of the Park or something. I don’t remember any “Shinjo” or “Goodwin”.
Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."
There's 3 ways to do something: the right way, the wrong way, and the Max Power/ Ginats Way...
by natteringnabob on Jun 23, 2009 5:03 PM PDT up reply actions
he is available
GIT R DONE GINATS BRANS
Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."
There's 3 ways to do something: the right way, the wrong way, and the Max Power/ Ginats Way...
by natteringnabob on Jun 23, 2009 5:04 PM PDT up reply actions
Maybe he’s due for a rest day, so he’s just DHing instead?
Of course, that’s just an attempt to use logic, which doesn’t apply to Giants mgmt.
It's my blarg! Quick Pitch
conserving power
won’t waste any energy legging out any “hits”.
Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."
There's 3 ways to do something: the right way, the wrong way, and the Max Power/ Ginats Way...
by natteringnabob on Jun 23, 2009 5:04 PM PDT up reply actions
valid point. maybe Schierhioltz in left, torres in center, winn in right and rowand at dh would be better?
Brand new adoptive daddy for the Big Unit. Congrats go out to my son for his 300th win. Only 211 more wins until he catches Cy Young!
by Speedforthewin on Jun 23, 2009 4:54 PM PDT up reply actions
That is a far superior plan.
Joe Martinez: My fingers are crossed and my palms are together for you.
When it's all said and done, America will be remembered for three things: The Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
yep it must be a sort of rest day for Winn. Renteria is the one that really needs rest, wasn’t he talking about a sore hammy? Franny at short tomorrow maybe?
cheering for Adam Witter, who will hit bigleague dingers some day.
Still yelling "Go, Antoan"
I think Uribe has the sore hammy. Word is that if it doesn’t clear up in the next day or two, a retroactive DL move may be made. Then anybody but Frandsen will be brought up.
It's my blarg! Quick Pitch
OT
Is there anything edible at the Coliseum? I’ll be there tonight.
Judgment Day is coming
comics | art | Nattowear
They have a deli on the second level now. It isn’t as bad as the rest of their food.
by Lars The Wanderer on Jun 23, 2009 5:26 PM PDT up reply actions
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