Matt Downs: Your Thoughts?
by uber on Jun 22, 2009 1:52 PM PDT
280 comments
A few weeks ago there was a lot of heated debate on this site over second base. Fransden v Burris: The Clash at the Cove. Not sure there ended up a clear winner in that fight. Anyhow, since then both Fransden and Burris have been sent down. Matt Downs has been, for 5 games, our starting second bagger. I know its a small sample size, but I so far like what I see from Downs. Mostly what I have noticed is that is taking good at bats. He appears very confident at the plate, has a good swing, and looks like he is going up with a plan. Kuip actually compared him (I think his approach and demeanor at the plate, not his actual skills) to Jeff Kent!
I know he booted a grounder in game 3 against the Angels, but I am willing to chalk that up to "getting used to the speed of the game." He made an impressive defensive play in yesterdays game and a smart base running play in Fridays. I'd like to keep him as the starting line up to see how both his AVG (currently .250) and his D develop.
Again, I know its only been 5 games, but I am curious to know what the rest of the group here think about Matt Downs so far. Thoughts?
This FanPost is reader-generated, and it does not necessarily reflect the views of McCovey Chronicles. If the author uses filler to achieve the minimum word requirement, a moderator may edit the FanPost for his or her own amusement.
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He has a good approach at the plate and seems to be steady at second. I don’t think he’s a long term answer for anything other than utility infielder but I’m fine with sticking for him for now
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on Jun 22, 2009 1:57 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Agree
with one exception – believe he could be all around utility fielder
by wilriv21 on Jun 22, 2009 2:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hey, Matt Downs: The Outfielder. I remember watching that horror flick during ST!
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
by Roger on Jun 22, 2009 2:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m just not sure why he deserves a shot over Frandsen. Perhaps Frandsen seems like a borderline prospect, but it seems like that applies at least as much to Downs. Frandsen actually has the better numbers in the minors, no? The Brass must be seeing something that isn’t evident to guys like me, who look at the box scores and follow the games on the radio/iPhone app.
Psycho killer, qu'est-ce que c'est?
by shikantaza on Jun 22, 2009 2:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’d dump Aurilia and bring up Frandsen.
Judgment Day is coming
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by Natto on Jun 22, 2009 2:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
this is basically the right answer.
Neal before Zod!
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by nostocksjustbonds on Jun 22, 2009 2:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is the only answer. The dump Aurilia part I mean.
My adopted son Matt Downs . Ranked as the 24th best prospect in the Giants farm system by Baseball America !!
by nvsfg on Jun 22, 2009 10:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1
Psycho killer, qu'est-ce que c'est?
by shikantaza on Jun 22, 2009 2:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's my poll choice as well
Downs AND Frandsen in the bigs.
co-dad of IshikaBOOM w/AfDC.
Ishikawa, let the boy hit against lefties.
by kennv on Jun 22, 2009 3:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
+ a brazillion
Psycho killer, qu'est-ce que c'est?
by shikantaza on Jun 22, 2009 5:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ding ding ding ding ding!
You are correct, sir.
Joe Martinez: My fingers are crossed and my palms are together for you.
When it's all said and done, America will be remembered for three things: The Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
by cornball on Jun 22, 2009 5:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He doesn’t, really, but nor does Frandsen really deserve a shot over Downs at this point.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on Jun 22, 2009 2:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That’s true. Maybe they just both suck. :P
Psycho killer, qu'est-ce que c'est?
by shikantaza on Jun 22, 2009 2:51 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
…but not as much as Aurilia.
Why isn't Sabean held accountable for leading the Giants into many years of mediocrity???
by oldrips on Jun 22, 2009 5:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
but really, the Giants have to have an idea regarding which one they prefer, right? And they aren’t really going to be concerned about rushing either one of them at this point, so really, they should just go with the player they like better. Seems like that player is Downs; I’ll trust their assessment over my armchair guesses.
Psycho killer, qu'est-ce que c'est?
by shikantaza on Jun 22, 2009 2:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
They may like Downs better long-term, but for now, the only reason Downs is on the big-league team is that they couldn’t call up Frandsen for a few more days.
by Evan on Jun 22, 2009 3:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I doubt that’s the only reason. They could’ve sucked it up for another week of Burriss if they wanted to bring Frandsen back, or decided to send Burriss down a few days earlier and kept Frandsen up. And they had to designate Holm to get Downs on the 40-man. They wouldn’t do that unless they seriously wanted a better look at Downs.
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by EliminateMe on Jun 22, 2009 4:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
agreed-even for the Ginas
I can’t believe they’re so incredibly stupid and short sighted as to option Frandsen only to have to bring up Downs a few days later and dump a catcher.
I almost wonder if Botchy or someone just doesn’t like Frandsen for one reason or another (i.e. not related to his performance, but on a personal level).
Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."
There's 3 ways to do something: the right way, the wrong way, and the Max Power/ Ginats Way...
by natteringnabob on Jun 22, 2009 10:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You’re right, it’s crazy to suggest the Giants might act without a long-range plan. Who would ever believe that?
by Evan on Jun 23, 2009 7:31 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I know ZIPS says he sucks, but Frandsen is hitting .335/.385/.515 at Fresno. Downs never hit that well even at San Jose.
by Evan on Jun 22, 2009 3:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
How many years has Frandsen played in the PCL? I’m not going to get excited about great PCL numbers unless it’s the player’s first go-round.
Joe Martinez: My fingers are crossed and my palms are together for you.
When it's all said and done, America will be remembered for three things: The Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
by cornball on Jun 22, 2009 5:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Todd Linden anyone?
"Well, um, actually a pretty nice little Saturday, we're going to go to Home Depot. Yeah, buy some wallpaper, maybe get some flooring, stuff like that. Maybe Bed, Bath, & Beyond, I don't know, I don't know if we'll have enough time."
by Azantor on Jun 22, 2009 6:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Daniel Ortmeier anyone?
He’s batting .303 for the Sky Sox!
Eliezer Alfonzo anyone? He’s batting .303 in Portland.
Cody Ransom anyone? He batted .309 for Fresno in 04.
Lance Niekro anyone? He batted over .300 for Fresno in 07, along with Horwitz, Bergolla, Luis Figueroa, Clay Timpner, Jeremiah Luster, and Barry Gunther. And Rich Aurilia (in 6 AB).
I think I’m done hyperventilating over guys batting .3gazillion in Fresno. At least until a position player sticks in the majors after having put up big numbers in Fresno (note Fred and Pedro F. both batted under .300 there, for whatever that’s worth). Every year there seems to be another hard luck harry killing birds in Fresno with DINGERZZ and we’re still looking for any scrap of that on the ML roster.
Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."
There's 3 ways to do something: the right way, the wrong way, and the Max Power/ Ginats Way...
by natteringnabob on Jun 22, 2009 10:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, when you throw a bunch of three-peaters at AAA up against guys three years their junior you’ll get numbers like that. Best not to overreact to them.
Barry Zito: Mike Hampton with a guitar
by JakeS on Jun 23, 2009 11:55 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I suspect the stigma against “repeating a level” has little or no empirical basis. It generally seems to be used to justify not giving long-term minor leaguers the shot they’ve earned.
If you look at the records of guys who spent a long time in AAA, like Dave Roberts or Jack Cust, you generally find that (a) they didn’t get dramatically better in their second or third crack at the league, and (b) in the majors they did just about what you would expect from their AAA stats.
by Evan on Jun 23, 2009 1:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Frandsen has hit well consistenly at every level he’s been in though.
Judgment Day is coming
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by Natto on Jun 22, 2009 6:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And yet his approach is fucking AWFUL. The guy swings at every fucking pitch. His call-up to play in Arizona was ugly.
by Hobbes2d on Jun 22, 2009 7:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t mean to overreact to a small sample size but it really did seem like (in both call-ups), he was just having poor ABs and hitting a ton of weak ground balls. I’m sure it’d fix itself if he got an extended chance, but it’s frustrating.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on Jun 23, 2009 1:58 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I just think he presses far too much when he is up in the bigs. Even that year he actually got a significant amount of playing time he was awful until the very end of the season. Only then did he start to hit, in what were meaningless games.
by Hobbes2d on Jun 23, 2009 9:58 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes he has. Very true. I won’t deny that. I also won’t get excited by the numbers posted by a guy repeating the PCL. His numbers his first time through the league do get me a little fuzzy, though.
Joe Martinez: My fingers are crossed and my palms are together for you.
When it's all said and done, America will be remembered for three things: The Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
by cornball on Jun 23, 2009 7:37 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Consistently too!
Judgment Day is coming
comics | art | Nattowear
by Natto on Jun 23, 2009 10:06 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Frandsen hit .351/.429/.467 in his first go-round at Fresno.
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by BruteSentiment on Jun 22, 2009 10:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah
I really don’t understand the “Frandsen’s never done anything to show he can hit in the Majors” arguement. It’s pretty baseless.
If Buster Posey hit .351/.429/.467 in AA all year long, we would all be shitting ourselves over how amazing that was.
Frandsen just seems like a case of “This isn’t the prospect you are waiting for” by the Giants ownership, and after 3 years – we as fans are starting to believe it.
I don’t know Kevin personally – I’ve only seen him play on TV. But his MiL #‘s as well as his effort in the ML tells me that the dude really deserves a legitimate shot – and he’s certainly done more to deserve it than pretty much any other position player in the Giants farm system in about 10 years.
Why he is continually passed over really baffles me. If I was him, I would be legitimately pissed.
by FairweatherFan on Jun 22, 2009 11:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If Buster Posey hit .351/.429/.467 in AA all year long, we would all be shitting ourselves over how amazing that was.
I wouldn’t. It would mean that he has good contact skills, poor discipline and no power. I expect much better from Posey.
Adoptive parent of Noah Lowry.
:-(
by Cookyman on Jun 23, 2009 2:41 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Would love for Posey to put up those numbers at AA Dodd. He would be a MONSTER
by wilriv21 on Jun 23, 2009 11:31 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
A monster whose numbers are completely driven by his BA. It’s not a bad line by any means and I wouldn’t be disappointed with it, really, but I have to agree with Cooky. If it was .351/.429/.567 that would be more exciting.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on Jun 23, 2009 2:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, yeah
Adding .100 to slg makes anyones line more exciting :)
My original point just was that I think context matters, and that line, put in a different context – would ellicit a totally different response.
by FairweatherFan on Jun 23, 2009 2:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was saying that I’d rather have a minor leaguer who hit .300/.400/.500 for a season than one who hit .380/.420/.510.
Adoptive parent of Noah Lowry.
:-(
by Cookyman on Jun 23, 2009 3:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why?
Sergio Romo: striking out professional hitters since 2005. And winner of the 2012 NL Fireman of the Year Award!
by Lyle on Jun 23, 2009 4:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If I could guess
it would be because .380 is a redonkulous batting average, and very likely to regress to league average strongly.
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
-------
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by zenbitz on Jun 23, 2009 4:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
So it just seems more believable is all? Sheesh. Some of you are very hard to please.
Sergio Romo: striking out professional hitters since 2005. And winner of the 2012 NL Fireman of the Year Award!
by Lyle on Jun 23, 2009 4:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Because the first line is A) believable, and B) sustainable. The second line most likely was at least partially a result of luck, and is in no way sustainable in the majors. Basically, a guy who hit .300/.400/.500 in the minors is way more likely to hit .300/.400/.500 in the majors, than a guy who hit .380/.420/.510. in the minors is to hit .380/.420/.510. in the majors.
Adoptive parent of Noah Lowry.
:-(
by Cookyman on Jun 23, 2009 4:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
OK
I see how it’s unlikely the .380 guy will hit .380 in the majors. But surely you wouldn’t refuse to promote that guy to the majors simply because you believed he couldn’t sustain that average? Wouldn’t you at least give him the chance to prove that he’s the next Tony Gwynn (or whomever)?
Sergio Romo: striking out professional hitters since 2005. And winner of the 2012 NL Fireman of the Year Award!
by Lyle on Jun 23, 2009 5:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And anyway...
…isn’t the real question which one is more likely to hit .300/.400/.500 in the majors? I mean, what we care about it performance in absolute terms, not how well you do relative to your minor league stats. Otherwise you just call up someone whose stats are so terrible he’s almost sure to better them in the majors. (Come to think…maybe that’s why they called up Holm when his average was at .000!)
Meet my new son: Sundrendy Windster, coming soon to a minor league near you.
by EliminateMe on Jun 23, 2009 5:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
.300/.400/.500 is about as good as 380/.420/.510, so the argument is moot.
Adoptive parent of Noah Lowry.
:-(
by Cookyman on Jun 23, 2009 5:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wait, I lost you. All I said is that I wouldn’t be that happy if Posey hit like that in AAA, because I believe he could do better. I didn’t say that it’s a bad line or anything. But, regarding this:
But surely you wouldn’t refuse to promote that guy to the majors simply because you believed he couldn’t sustain that average
I don’t know what I would do, but that’s definitely how teams work. The baseball world is filled with players who put up nice minor league numbers and never got a real chance, because their teams thought they won’t be able to repeat them in the majors.
Adoptive parent of Noah Lowry.
:-(
by Cookyman on Jun 23, 2009 5:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Interestingly enough
…that has been a chief complaint of mine about the Giants for at least 20 years.
Sergio Romo: striking out professional hitters since 2005. And winner of the 2012 NL Fireman of the Year Award!
by Lyle on Jun 24, 2009 7:20 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And is pretty much our complaint about the Giants
Re: Frandsen
by FairweatherFan on Jun 24, 2009 11:44 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
We are in complete agreement on this.
Sergio Romo: striking out professional hitters since 2005. And winner of the 2012 NL Fireman of the Year Award!
by Lyle on Jun 24, 2009 12:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think you're confused
That’s what he did in 2005, in San Jose.
Adoptive parent of Noah Lowry.
:-(
by Cookyman on Jun 23, 2009 2:48 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
True — his first go-round in Fresno was actually much better than that.
by Evan on Jun 23, 2009 7:32 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
++1
I’d drop Aurilia, send Downs back to Fresno (he needs to play everyday to work on his D), and bring Frandsen (let him start every day at 2b for at least 6 weeks) and Bowker up.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
by Fla-Giant on Jun 22, 2009 3:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Trade him for justin morneau type hitter
by jctGamer on Jun 22, 2009 2:07 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Downs for Fielder or Downs for Hardy & Hart?
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by ResDog on Jun 22, 2009 2:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Can we do both?
Joe Martinez: My fingers are crossed and my palms are together for you.
When it's all said and done, America will be remembered for three things: The Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
by cornball on Jun 22, 2009 5:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Trade him for J.J. Hardy… throw in Jesse English to sweeten the deal if necessary.
Psycho killer, qu'est-ce que c'est?
by shikantaza on Jun 22, 2009 2:15 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I’m high on Downs.
Supporting San Francisco Dugout since 2005 and Manny Burriss since 2006, and bringing you all your California League needs since 2009.
by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Jun 22, 2009 2:17 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I’m down with highs.
Psycho killer, qu'est-ce que c'est?
by shikantaza on Jun 22, 2009 2:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thumbs Up for Downs
I like what I see. I like that he even has an approach at the plate, which so many of our players (even, GASP, veterans) don’t. I’d still love to see Kevin up, but he and Downs seem rather redundant, though Frandsen can play SS and Downs doesn’t, which makes Kevin a bit more valuable in my book, but only slightly.
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by nostocksjustbonds on Jun 22, 2009 2:19 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
rather redundant is better then facking useless. release Aurilia and bring up Frandsen.
co-dad of IshikaBOOM w/AfDC.
Ishikawa, let the boy hit against lefties.
by kennv on Jun 22, 2009 3:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right again!
Joe Martinez: My fingers are crossed and my palms are together for you.
When it's all said and done, America will be remembered for three things: The Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
by cornball on Jun 22, 2009 5:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He’s a nobody in the long term, but probably better than Burris in the short term so I can’t complain.
Barry Zito: Mike Hampton with a guitar
by JakeS on Jun 22, 2009 2:24 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
He has a decent chance of being better than Burriss in all terms.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
by Roger on Jun 22, 2009 2:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sure, but that says more about Burriss than it does about him. He has 100% chance of being better than me as well.
Barry Zito: Mike Hampton with a guitar
by JakeS on Jun 22, 2009 2:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
trade JakeS for Fielder!
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Jun 22, 2009 2:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, yeah, I mean, I don’t want to understate my abilities. I am a Morneau-type player.
Barry Zito: Mike Hampton with a guitar
by JakeS on Jun 22, 2009 3:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
funny. that’s my exact reaction to Gary Radnich.
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Jun 22, 2009 2:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
…and he’d be wrong as usual.
"The dreams ain't broken down here now, they're walking with a limp" --TW
by bgunn on Jun 22, 2009 4:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I like him fine, but the evidence is strong that Kevin Frandsen is a better player, and it would be dumb to allow a few good games from Downs to overshadow that.
by Evan on Jun 22, 2009 2:30 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Downs is good. I think people forget that he was primarily a pitcher until a few years ago. He plays solid D, has a gun for an arm, actually can draw walks, and his approach at the plate and power potential are much better than Frandsen. Not to mention he has a little bit of speed to steal some bags, another thing Frandsen doesn’t really bring to the table.
by Hobbes2d on Jun 22, 2009 2:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
that’s a good point… he does have quite a bit more pop and a better arm than Frandsen. OTOH, the guy is in his 4th year in pro ball as a hitter. How long can you use the “used to be a pitcher” excuse?
He’s 25 and had a .786 OPS in AAA. I hope he surprises me, but I’m not really expecting much.
Psycho killer, qu'est-ce que c'est?
by shikantaza on Jun 22, 2009 2:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’ll take a 786 OPS. Burriss was at 560 when he went down.
A 200 point OPS improvement would be like trading for a real, major league player.
(Assuming Downs can maintain that in the bigs)
by jayreed13 on Jun 22, 2009 3:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If Downs posts a .786 OPS in the bigs I will eat the Pope’s hat.
Barry Zito: Mike Hampton with a guitar
by JakeS on Jun 22, 2009 3:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I really hope Downs posts a .786 OPS in the bigs
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by Useful_Idiot on Jun 22, 2009 3:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It seems the power structure is directly correlated to the size of their hats. I have to wonder if God’s up there wearing a massive sombrero.
Supporting San Francisco Dugout since 2005 and Manny Burriss since 2006, and bringing you all your California League needs since 2009.
by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Jun 22, 2009 4:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Imaging if Bochy became pope—that’s alotta hat.
"The dreams ain't broken down here now, they're walking with a limp" --TW
by bgunn on Jun 22, 2009 4:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
LOL
Psycho killer, qu'est-ce que c'est?
by shikantaza on Jun 22, 2009 5:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
lulz
Joe Martinez: My fingers are crossed and my palms are together for you.
When it's all said and done, America will be remembered for three things: The Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
by cornball on Jun 22, 2009 5:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
"Actually can draw walks"
Maybe he can, but he doesn’t. He’s got 95 walks in 1350 minor league PA’s, while being constantly way too old for his league. That say a lot more about his approach than a few major league at bats.
Adoptive parent of Noah Lowry.
:-(
by Cookyman on Jun 22, 2009 3:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
BURN THE NAYSAYER
A NON BELIEVER! HE’S A WITCH!
by jctGamer on Jun 22, 2009 3:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
so you're saying
toe the rubber?
co-dad of IshikaBOOM w/AfDC.
Ishikawa, let the boy hit against lefties.
by kennv on Jun 22, 2009 3:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Understanding its only been 5 games, I suggested that I liked what I saw and would like to see more and not that he is a better player than Fransden. Obviously it would be unwise to make any stat based comparison between either players. Downs has only 5 games and Fransden 9. It would be just as wrong headed to suggest that Downs is a better player than Fransden as it would to suggest that Fransdens 9 game line of .071/.161/.071/.233 means he sucks.
At this point all you really have to go on is general impression. My general impression has been that Downs has shown good plate discipline, a good approach, and some baseball smarts that are encouraging and worth seeing develop a little more. Shit give him 9 games and then decide.
by uber on Jun 22, 2009 2:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Clarification...
I wrote " it would be unwise to make any stat based comparison between either players." and I meant between this years PAs in the Majors. We could compare their minor league stats all day long, and basically you are correct that statistically Fransden has an edge (its close though):
Downs (1348 PAs ): .306 /.364 /.485 /.849 197RBI, 34HR,
Fransden (1331 PAs ): 328 /.390/ .468 /.858 158RBI, 21HR
by uber on Jun 22, 2009 3:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
But Frandsen’s are overwhelmingly at AAA while Downs’s are overwhelmingly at A-ball.
I agree with your general impression, and long-term I’d probably rather have Downs; but for this season, playing Downs over Frandsen will almost certainly cost the team some runs.
by Evan on Jun 22, 2009 3:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You are right
I conceed the failure in my reasoning (re minor league numbers). Second base hasn’t been what any of us would have liked to have seen from that position. So, while Downs continues to put up better numbers than either Fransden or Burris, I am happy to see him in the line up and watch what happens.
by uber on Jun 22, 2009 3:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
without age and league adjustment these are meaningless
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
-------
PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game currently in early planning stages.
by zenbitz on Jun 22, 2009 3:44 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
So far, so good
Nice approach at the plate, can make solid contact, not a total embarrassment with the glove. I don’t mind watching him for a while more.
No, really, I have updated my blog this year: http://skaldheim.livejournal.com/tag/baseball
by Skaldheim on Jun 22, 2009 2:54 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I like him, but he is just an organization guy. He shouldn’t be taking away playing time from Frandsen.
Merkin Valdez? Manuel Mateo? A rose by any other name...
by rotorueter on Jun 22, 2009 2:55 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I think Frandsen is also pretty much an “organization guy” too.
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by Goofus on Jun 22, 2009 2:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
An organization guy that complained in the press about his organization.
Adopted father of Brian Bocock, Brad Boyer, Sharlon Schoop, Shane Jordan and Jeremiah Luster,Trey Webb and David Quinowski.
by RichH on Jun 22, 2009 3:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The way his organization has treated him deserved some complaining in the press.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
by Roger on Jun 22, 2009 6:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not really. Not when he fails to impress every single time he is called up. It’s a nice story and all that he grew up in the area a Giants fan, but he simply isn’t that much better than Downs or anyone else really. Burriss sucks too, but at least he can steal a bag and slap a couple of singles once in awhile.
by Hobbes2d on Jun 22, 2009 7:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Really?
Believe Franny is more than an organizational guy. Believe he can be an everyday ML 2b
by wilriv21 on Jun 22, 2009 3:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Do you really see a big difference in the celings of Downs and Frandsen?
I don’t disagree that Frandsen could end up being a starting ML 2B, but if you make that argument it’s pretty hard to say Downs couldn’t be one as well.
My adopted Giant: "Raptor Jesus" Guzman
by Goofus on Jun 24, 2009 11:00 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Believe Franny is a much better player than Downs. Franny can be an everyday guy while Downs will be a utility guy.
by wilriv21 on Jun 24, 2009 12:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Based on what?
Adopted father of Brian Bocock, Brad Boyer, Sharlon Schoop, Shane Jordan and Jeremiah Luster,Trey Webb and David Quinowski.
by RichH on Jun 24, 2009 1:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
See my post below
My adopted Giant: "Raptor Jesus" Guzman
by Goofus on Jun 24, 2009 8:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, based on what?
Comparing their minor league numbers, they’ve both been basically .850 OPS guys. Frandsen has some small sample size gawdy lines, but has also repeated more leagues whereas Downs has been a more steady progression.
The only thing that jumps out is that Downs is younger and has 20 and 17 HR seasons. Frandsen hasn’t done anything close to that. Downs is also taller and bigger, so he probably prects better power numbers at the MLB level as well.
My adopted Giant: "Raptor Jesus" Guzman
by Goofus on Jun 24, 2009 2:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Frandsen.
Wait, let me do my impression of SFGate and Mercury News commenters…
“TAKE OFF YOUR BLINDERS, FRANDSEN LOVERS! THERE’S NO REASON TO THINK HE CAN HIT AND HE HAS NO RANGE AND HE’S SLOW AND HE SUCKS!”
Seriously, I have no idea why I ever scroll into the comment section on those sites…
by AndOnTheDrums... on Jun 22, 2009 3:16 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Frandsen AND Downs
I wish I had thought to add it to the poll. Didnt occur to me. I would agree with those here who have said to play both Fransden and Downs. I would assume that Frandsen would play SS? That could be a refreshing change from watching a sluggish Renteria play short.
I could be “Down” (errherr) with that.
by uber on Jun 22, 2009 3:27 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
one vote against an everyday Major League SS named Kevin Frandsen. He could spot start he and there.
by wilriv21 on Jun 22, 2009 3:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Frandsen would be a utility player, as he has played games at 3B, SS, 2B, LF and RF
Brand new adoptive daddy for the Big Unit. Congrats go out to my son for his 300th win. Only 211 more wins until he catches Cy Young!
by Speedforthewin on Jun 22, 2009 3:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And if anybody asks, I’m sure he’ll say he has a first baseman’s glove in his locker, too. (And then he’ll go ask to borrow Aurilia’s.)
Meet my new son: Sundrendy Windster, coming soon to a minor league near you.
by EliminateMe on Jun 22, 2009 4:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Or he’ll just take it when they cut Aurilia between Richie’s ‘At-Bats’.
"Well, um, actually a pretty nice little Saturday, we're going to go to Home Depot. Yeah, buy some wallpaper, maybe get some flooring, stuff like that. Maybe Bed, Bath, & Beyond, I don't know, I don't know if we'll have enough time."
by Azantor on Jun 22, 2009 6:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
As a fan, and not a numbercrunching GM wannabe, I love to see players come up and get a chance just like Downs is getting right now. Being as clueless as I am, I think he’s currently one of the best 25 players in all of baseball.
No offense intended to anyone who attempts to sift through the available information to determine who would be the better/best player, but I would enjoy the game less if I approached it that way.
For the record, I was a Frandsen supported coming out of camp, but tried to give Burriss the same support while he was here.
"The dreams ain't broken down here now, they're walking with a limp" --TW
by bgunn on Jun 22, 2009 4:40 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Wait awhile, see what happens after the scouts find his weaknesses. Then the question becomes: can he adjust to the other teams adjustments.
Bowker – for example- couldn’t seem to be able to do that last season.
by Merope on Jun 22, 2009 5:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, Bowker did the first time
Laid off the junk.
But then he fell for the high fastball.
Couldn’t make the second adjustment.
by FairweatherFan on Jun 22, 2009 5:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I salute your metaphorical cajones
Being less than worshipful of Bowker can get someone put in the stockade and pummelled with tomatoes. (“I mean, who brings tomatoes? Honestly.” — Austin Powers)
Forsan et haec olim meminisse iuvabit... Maybe.
by Mayor of 311 on Jun 23, 2009 8:31 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Awesome! So maybe we can trade Downs for Hanley Ramirez!
My adopted Giant: "Raptor Jesus" Guzman
by Goofus on Jun 23, 2009 10:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I like his intangibles
Downs seems like a smart, steady player who doesn’t excel in any one phase of the game but is decent all the way around. He kinda reminds me of Kelly Johnson of the Braves – not a star by any means, but a gritty, scrappy player, and you can never have enough of those on your team. And unlike other players on this team, he doesn’t hack away at every pitch, and actually seems aware of the count up there.
Lets let him play for a few more weeks and see what happens.
by crazedcrustacean on Jun 22, 2009 6:10 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
the Giants actually have too many gritty, scrappy players
by ktice on Jun 23, 2009 12:09 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
..but in the wrong positions. For 2B, that’s an ideal description. For LF, 1B, or RF not so much.
Sergio Romo: striking out professional hitters since 2005. And winner of the 2012 NL Fireman of the Year Award!
by Lyle on Jun 23, 2009 6:57 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Which disproves the theorem than you can never have enough gritty, scrappy players.
Joe Martinez: My fingers are crossed and my palms are together for you.
When it's all said and done, America will be remembered for three things: The Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
by cornball on Jun 23, 2009 7:38 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh, agreed!
One or two wouldn’t be a bad thing; in most team sports a variety is a good thing.
Sergio Romo: striking out professional hitters since 2005. And winner of the 2012 NL Fireman of the Year Award!
by Lyle on Jun 23, 2009 4:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think it's really wild
that I was at the MLB debut of both Matt Downs and Kelly Downs
by moonman on Jun 22, 2009 6:19 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
And they both wore #37. This is just getting creepy !
My adopted son Matt Downs . Ranked as the 24th best prospect in the Giants farm system by Baseball America !!
by nvsfg on Jun 22, 2009 10:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm a big fan of Downs...
…but Downs still has learning to do in Fresno. Frandsen doesn’t, and he should be getting his shot for once and all in the bigs now.
Bring Frandsen up.
"The knowledge of the game is inversely proportional to the price of the seat." ---Bill Veeck. •Now you can follow SFDugout.com on Twitter and Facebook!•
by BruteSentiment on Jun 22, 2009 10:14 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Every time Frandsen is up, he does nothing. I don’t see him more than anything but a utility player. Downs isn’t much either so far so let’s see what he may or may not have.
by SFGuy on Jun 22, 2009 10:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Seems weird to me… he hasn’t even had 400 major league at bats yet, and the one time that he did get regular at bats (in 2007), he actually had a fairly decent line.
I’m not saying he’s a superstar or anything, but there are a lot of reasons to believe that his overall ML line is not representative of his skill, and an insane amount of reasons to believe that his 2009 line is a complete aberration.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Jun 22, 2009 10:25 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
So This
People that want to sell the line “Frandsen had his chances” need to name those chances. And we can pull the game logs and talk about it. I am not saying The Flying Squirrel is going to be anything special but if you want to condemn a guy at least have some facts or a funny " Repent the end is near" act that we can try to laugh along with.
Yes, This is still a 79 win squad.
Where is my beer & chili dog?
by daveinexile on Jun 22, 2009 10:50 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah
The “He had his shot in 9 Ab’s” line is really getting fucking old.
by FairweatherFan on Jun 22, 2009 11:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I respectfully disagree
In 2007, he had a usual kind of rookie year, until he tweaked a couple of things, and then went wild at the end of the year. He never got the chance to follow up on that. Of course, he missed 2007 with injury, and this season has gotten only 28 at-bats, nine games (only seven starts), and though his numbers were low, everyone agrees that he was hitting the ball well, just getting snakebit.
He deserves a chance. It’s his last chance, but he deserves it.
"The knowledge of the game is inversely proportional to the price of the seat." ---Bill Veeck. •Now you can follow SFDugout.com on Twitter and Facebook!•
by BruteSentiment on Jun 23, 2009 12:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I almost couldn’t read this post. If I saw ONE MORE reference to this guy as being called “The Syndrome” I was going to throw my computer across the room and probably hit a bookshelf and destroy a bunch of Tufte books (that’s what’s sitting across from me). Nobody wants that. So, on behalf of me, Apple Computing, my jumpy dog, Edward Tufte, and Light, and Reason, thank you all for not calling him that in this thread. And I’ll thank you kindlier to refrain from doing it ever again.
Oh, the baseball? I like him. Fun to listen to him get some hits.
Still backing Notgardo, wheresoever he may wander. (Don't forget to wriiiite!)
by tk on Jun 22, 2009 10:31 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I actually did make a comment like that, but I got rid of it because it’s not even worth the throwaway comment I threw it away in, and I felt dumber for having even hit post on it.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Jun 22, 2009 10:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
/ takes away no hurl guarantee.
Yes, This is still a 79 win squad.
Where is my beer & chili dog?
by daveinexile on Jun 22, 2009 10:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dude did you catch my rage or what? I’ve been feeling much less ragey these days. I was wondering what happened to it.
Supporting San Francisco Dugout since 2005 and Manny Burriss since 2006, and bringing you all your California League needs since 2009.
by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Jun 22, 2009 11:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I caught it. Big time!
Still backing Notgardo, wheresoever he may wander. (Don't forget to wriiiite!)
by tk on Jun 22, 2009 11:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I can’t stand that nickname.
Joe Martinez: My fingers are crossed and my palms are together for you.
When it's all said and done, America will be remembered for three things: The Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
by cornball on Jun 23, 2009 7:39 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Huh?
Where do you see “The Syndrome” tk?
Sergio Romo: striking out professional hitters since 2005. And winner of the 2012 NL Fireman of the Year Award!
by Lyle on Jun 23, 2009 4:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
She said it wasn’t in this post and it was a good thing, because it’s been on the site elsewhere and she has found it annoying.
Right?
GROUGTHINK ALERT
Chatterbalks dot com: Still with jokes. Now with updates.
by groug on Jun 23, 2009 6:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Edward Tufte is awesome.
Meet my new son: Sundrendy Windster, coming soon to a minor league near you.
by EliminateMe on Jun 23, 2009 4:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Matt Downs Is an Oppressive Force
Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."
There's 3 ways to do something: the right way, the wrong way, and the Max Power/ Ginats Way...
by natteringnabob on Jun 22, 2009 11:09 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Keeping the people Downs
Supporting San Francisco Dugout since 2005 and Manny Burriss since 2006, and bringing you all your California League needs since 2009.
by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Jun 22, 2009 11:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
This
Is awesome. I hope Kevin sees this.
by FairweatherFan on Jun 22, 2009 11:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You know
Consolidating some thoughts here…
The Frandsen thing is very confusing to me. The guy has literally the best career MiL line of any position player in the Giants farm in 10 years (in 2006 @ age 23 he OPS’ed .861 across 3 levels including a 1.024 OPS in 94 AB’s in AAA), plays at a position of need, has a great attitude (christ, he hung out in the dugout w/ the team ALL last year w/ a torn achillies) and in his (extremely) limited ML opportunities made good contact and has hit the ball on the screws. (Career 18 LD%, 10.6 k%)
He’s been totally BABIP screwed (.259 ML career, .080 2009) while in the ML.
But for some reason, the Giants management seems to try to play everyone BUT Frandsen – it’s as if he is a last resort. First he spent 2007 sitting behind an extremely under peforming Durham. 2008 out w/ the Achillies, 2009 lost job to a 22 year old guy w/ 62 AB’s in AA of .566 OPS as his largest pro accomplishment.
Now that the position is again available – the team roots around and finds Downs, a questionable prospect, a guy who was OPSing .786 in AAA – his best MiL performance, to date.
A guy who’s BEST AAA season (this year) is worse than Frandsens worst. A guy who is OPSing almost 300 points lower than Frandsen in the same exact environment, for the same exact team. 300 freaking points. That’s like the difference between Rowand and Pujols.
It just doesn’t make ANY sense. Kevin is probably not going to be a great hitter in the ML (That’s what the MiL splits say), but what all of the available evidence suggests, without question, is that he will be a better hitter than Burriss, Downs, Velez, or any of the other clowns that the Giants have tried at second instead of him.
He would also likely be a much better hitter than Renteria at SS, and certainly an adequate defender.
I really just do not get it. it is either extreme incompetence on the management’s part or there is something about Kevin that we as fans do not know. The Giants track record doesn’t really suggest that they miss judge offensive talent (the list of players that fell out of our system and made it somewhere else is pretty exclusive) but it is really really hard for me to believe that Frandsen is not the Giants best in-house option for 2b right now and for 2010/2011.
MLE’s
Frandsen (2009 AAA) .289/.327/.417/.744
Downs (2009 AAA) .250/.286/.370/.656
That line would make Frandsen the 3rd best hitter on the Giants and the 16th best 2b in baseball.
All of the sentimental, touchy feely, Burris/Downs love bullshit aside, I’m really not sure how not playing Kevin makes ANY sense for this team trying to win now OR in the future.
If Kevin were black and exhibiting this type of performance relative to his peers in the business world while others got promotions, the ACLU would be all over this shit.
by FairweatherFan on Jun 23, 2009 12:13 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
So yeah
by FairweatherFan on Jun 23, 2009 12:15 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
FWF
Well, I don’t agree with your last assessment of Downs, but you are absolutely correct about Frandsen in the above long post. Without actually knowing him, his personality, or how he treats Mrs. Sabean, we fans at a distance cannot logically explain the disdain that SF management seems to view Kevin with. (dangling preposition, sorry).
Kevin Frandsen will never be Chase Utley. He could be Robbie Thompson, and that worked out pretty well for several years. I’m the second biggest Matt Downs fan here, but I say we bring Kevin back up to play 2B for the rest of year, and move on to fixing the other, more pressing problems this team has.
Sergio Romo: striking out professional hitters since 2005. And winner of the 2012 NL Fireman of the Year Award!
by Lyle on Jun 23, 2009 7:07 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dangling prepositions are okay. So says my usage dictionary. They should be used with discretion, but I support your usage.
Joe Martinez: My fingers are crossed and my palms are together for you.
When it's all said and done, America will be remembered for three things: The Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
by cornball on Jun 23, 2009 7:41 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m the second biggest Matt Downs fan here,
Who’s the first ? I find your Robbie Thompson reference interesting, as I made the same comment about Downs last week. . That might the be real problem with the Frandsen/Downs discussion. They are virtually the same guy.
I was all aboard the Frandsen bandwagon this Spring. I honestly thought there would be no contest, and that Frandsen would be the starting 2B in 2009. I mean what were the other choices ? Burris ? Velez ? Frandsen should be here. He has hit well and played everywhere the Giants have asked him to from OF to SS.
That being said, I am happy to see Downs getting a shot. He has performed well so far. He does not have an Iron Glove (ala Velez), has shown paitence at the plate, and while he has never walked a lot, has an actual approach at the plate that does not include swinging at the first pitch every time he steps into the box.
The real answer is that Richie needs to go, Renteria needs to sit down for awhile, and Frandsen and Downs should stay up.
My adopted son Matt Downs . Ranked as the 24th best prospect in the Giants farm system by Baseball America !!
by nvsfg on Jun 23, 2009 8:08 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would support
Aurilia poof, Frandsen up and Downs/Frandsen covering the MI for a while. Frandsen can also cover 2b/3b/OF when needed.
That’s another feather in Kevin’s cap. All of his MiL batting credentials aside, He also is capable of playing 2b/SS/3b/OF and probably 1b if you needed him to (Aurilia style). That’s more than you can say for either Burriss or Downs. His ability to cover essentially the entire field as a RH bat on this lefty heavy team is, IMO, pretty valuable.
by FairweatherFan on Jun 23, 2009 8:16 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually, Downs has played 1B in the past. I wouldn’t call it his best position, but he could do so in a pinch and wouldn’t be a butcher.
Sergio Romo: striking out professional hitters since 2005. And winner of the 2012 NL Fireman of the Year Award!
by Lyle on Jun 23, 2009 9:23 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Downs can play all those positions too if asked.
by Hobbes2d on Jun 23, 2009 10:00 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
NVsfg...
…you are the first! I wanted to adopt Matt, but you beat me to it. Sergio has worked out pretty well for me, so I’m not complaining. But I’ve predicted that Downs would make the majors ever since his NWL debut.
Sergio Romo: striking out professional hitters since 2005. And winner of the 2012 NL Fireman of the Year Award!
by Lyle on Jun 23, 2009 9:16 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I never get the Thomspon comps. Frandsen doesn’t have Robby’s gift for the K, and I’m not sure he’s as good a defender.
Randy Winn is going to catch that. And he'll do it real classy-like too.
by oldjacket on Jun 23, 2009 8:20 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Every white 2B Giants prospect = Robby Thompson
by xanthan on Jun 23, 2009 8:23 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Except Nick Noonan, who is Chase Utley, only without power, patience, or defense.
by Evan on Jun 23, 2009 8:33 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Defense?
Adoptive parent of Noah Lowry.
:-(
by Cookyman on Jun 23, 2009 8:41 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
At least he has the best plate discipline in the system.
Judgment Day is coming
comics | art | Nattowear
by Natto on Jun 23, 2009 10:12 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Every white 2B Giants prospect = Robby Thompson
Every White SF Giants Second Baseman ?
Don Blasingame
Chuck Hiller
Tom Heintzelman
Rob Andrews
Duane Kuiper
Brad Wellman
Mike Woodard
Robby Thompson
Greg Litton
Steve Scarsone
Jay Canizaro
Mark Lewis
Jeff Kent
Travis Denker*
Kevin Frandsen*
Matt Downs*
Nick Noonan*
My adopted son Matt Downs . Ranked as the 24th best prospect in the Giants farm system by Baseball America !!
by nvsfg on Jun 23, 2009 8:47 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think there’s a pretty strong case for: Robby Thompson = Robby Thompson
by jhiat00 on Jun 24, 2009 2:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think part of it is Robby never seemed to get any love outside of SF tell almost the very end of his run.
Yes, This is still a 79 win squad.
Where is my beer & chili dog?
by daveinexile on Jun 23, 2009 9:01 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pretty simple. He’s never shown any power before this year – as a 27 year old repeating the PCL – and even this year he’s not showing that much. He also has never shown any signs of reasonable plate discipline. He’s all AVG. Those kind of hitters usually don’t work out well in the majors.
Adoptive parent of Noah Lowry.
:-(
by Cookyman on Jun 23, 2009 2:56 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
As a 23 year old Frandsend had an ISO of .130 across 3 levels
and an ISO of .192 in AAA across 94 AB’s.
I’m not really sure it’s accurate to say that he never showed any power. He’s certainly showed more power at EVERY step than Burriss, and more power than Downs, too.
Downs had an ISO of ~ .163 in 2008 as a 24 year old between in AAA.
Frandsen bested that by a lot in his above referenced age 23 season in AAA.
And since when has plate discipline EVER factored in to the Giants decision making process?
The arguement isn’t that Frandsen will ever be a great player – it’s that he is CLEARLY better than the other options.
by FairweatherFan on Jun 23, 2009 7:00 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
ISO of .130 is below average. Before this season, Frandsen had 13 HR’s in 1102 minor league PA’s. No power is exaggeration, but he hasn’t shown much. Anyway, I was just explaining why I don’t think Frandsen is a prospect, but I agree that he should be our 2B right now.
Also, regarding this:
The guy has literally the best career MiL line of any position player in the Giants farm in 10 years
Sadly, I think that goes to Todd Linden.
Adoptive parent of Noah Lowry.
:-(
by Cookyman on Jun 23, 2009 7:41 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You might be right about Linden
But that is kinda a special case.
by FairweatherFan on Jun 23, 2009 8:03 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
RE: LInden
Age 22 Season AAA – > .760 OPS
Age 23 Season AAA – > .768 OPS
Career AAA OPS → .875. That includes ages 22-29.
Frandsen put up a .920 OPS in his age 23 season in AAA (similar # of AB’s as Linden’s age 22 year)
Career AAA OPS → .872, Age 22/23/24/25/27 seasons.
They are really entirely different players anyway. Linden was a power hitting outfielder while Frandsen is a contact hitting infielder.
I actually think Frandsen’s line is better. Not only did he put up a higher OPS at a similar age, he also has about the same career AAA OPS primarily achieved at a younger age. Linden’s career numbers are built largely on some huge AAA seasons after he left the Giants org, in his ages 27/28/29 seasons.
And Frandsen plays a more premium defensive position. As a 2b/SS he shouldn’t have to OPS as high as an outfielder to be valuable.
by FairweatherFan on Jun 23, 2009 8:12 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
None of this is relevant to “the guy has literally the best career MiL line of any position player in the Giants farm in 10 years”, which is what I replied to.
If you look at the big picture, then yeah, Frandsen probably looks better than Linden, but then are also many who look better than Frandsen, like Pablo, Schierholtz, or Bowker.
Adoptive parent of Noah Lowry.
:-(
by Cookyman on Jun 23, 2009 8:18 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not gonna argue every one
But I think you could make arguements for each.
Anyway, doesn’t really matter. I think you and I agree on the fundamental premise (which is rare)
by FairweatherFan on Jun 23, 2009 8:26 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It is rare. I don’t know why that is.
Adoptive parent of Noah Lowry.
:-(
by Cookyman on Jun 23, 2009 8:37 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’d like to see some evidence that those kind of hitters don’t work out well in the majors. I believe the reason you don’t see many batting-average-centric hitters in the majors anymore is that baseball fashion turned against them. There were good sabermetric reasons for that, of course, but that doesn’t mean they can’t contribute.
by Evan on Jun 23, 2009 7:40 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
A good player once.
Adoptive parent of Noah Lowry.
:-(
by Cookyman on Jun 23, 2009 8:11 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah. I think he’s the first guy that comes to mind when I think of pure BA players.
by xanthan on Jun 23, 2009 8:24 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He's been a pretty good (lucky) player this year
Fucking Dodgers
by FairweatherFan on Jun 23, 2009 8:27 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m not basing this on any research, just logic. Average 2B has a .340 OBP and a .410 SLG. Frandsen will probably need to hit .295 or better in order to match that, which is very hard to do.
Adoptive parent of Noah Lowry.
:-(
by Cookyman on Jun 23, 2009 8:10 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sure
And he probably won’t do it.
Regardless, that’s not really the question at this point.
Replacement level out of 2b would be nice.
by FairweatherFan on Jun 23, 2009 8:17 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Replacement level out of 2nd would be fantastic.
Yes, This is still a 79 win squad.
Where is my beer & chili dog?
by daveinexile on Jun 23, 2009 9:04 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I can almost garauntee you that Frandsen would provide us with replacement level, at least.
by FairweatherFan on Jun 23, 2009 9:04 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Even the MOST pessamistic people on Frandsen
Peg him as that – a replacement level player.
by FairweatherFan on Jun 23, 2009 9:05 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeh, I’m pretty much in that camp. I think would most likely be good MLB utility infielder taht goes on occassional streaks of goodness if played enough.
Of coarse the means the manger needs to be willing to take play time from 64 OPS+ & 46 OPS+ second basemen with shaky gloves and give Frandsen a chance …. ( mubble, grumble, spits)
Yes, This is still a 79 win squad.
Where is my beer & chili dog?
by daveinexile on Jun 23, 2009 9:10 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
This kind of the thing if getting to like excepting HIEAD to think OBP is a good idea in the #1 & #2 spots. Al Davis will happily burn all his white leisure suits before that happens.
Yes, This is still a 79 win squad.
Where is my beer & chili dog?
by daveinexile on Jun 23, 2009 9:13 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Matt Downs was the MVP of the NW league in 2007 when he had an OPS of 947. I assume you meant to say “his best AAA performance to date”.
I must say I don’t know what all the fuss is about, they couldn’t bring Frandsen up until today (6/23), so they brought Downs up and gave him a shot. Small sample size, but he does as expected: Reasonable with the bat and barely passable with the glove. That also sounds like Kevin Frandsen.
"Don't trust anyone under the age of 30" - Brian Sabean
by Smotheredinhugs on Jun 23, 2009 6:48 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
THANK YOU for the note of sanity re limit on calling up Frandsen!
And once a guy is doing ok (as Downs is at the moment), there is no use in arbitrarily sending him down just to bring up Frandsen, who represents no great probability of being much better. If or when Downs starts scuffling in a way that isn’t quickly correctable, then bring up Frandsen.
Forsan et haec olim meminisse iuvabit... Maybe.
by Mayor of 311 on Jun 23, 2009 8:45 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think the point, mayor
Is that it was either extremely short-sighted or entirely purposeful that they were in this situation in the first place.
Nothing happened in the 5 days since Frandsen was optioned down that changed the perception of Burriss. Either the team displayed extreme incompetence and lack of planning AGAIN by sending Frandsen down w/o realizing that they were likely to send Burriss down sometime in the next 10 days OR they didn’t plan on calling Frandsen up anyway.
Either way, it’s retarded. Choosing Downs over Frandsen is nonsensical (especially when Downs isn’t on the 40 man) and f’ing up the timing of the Burriss/Downs/Frandsen situation is amateurish, at best.
One of the things that has served me well in my short life is that I try not to assume successful people are stupid/incompetent. If people w/ demonstrated success (and Sabean, regardless of his performance as GM, is clearly a generally successful man) do things that seem irrational/incompetent – I always assume that I don’t know the full story.
So, as such – In this situation I can only assume I do not know the full story. It’s getting to the point where there MUST be something about Kevin that we as fans do not know. It’s as if the Giants are running an “anybody but Frandsen” campaign for second base.
by FairweatherFan on Jun 23, 2009 9:03 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t think the Giants have anything in particular against Frandsen — his timing has just been rotten.
In 2005 he was aggressively promoted.
In 2006 he got a brief shot and didn’t do anything, and anyway Ray Durham was in the midst of a great year.
In 2007 they were able to sign Durham to what seemed like a bargain contract — a solid baseball decision, but it meant Frandsen was out of luck.
In 2008 it seemed like Frandsen’s time had finally come, but he got hurt.
In 2009 the Giants were seduced, as they so often are, by small-sample flukiness, first from Burriss and now from Downs.
by Evan on Jun 23, 2009 9:31 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t think there’s a flukeness thing about Downs. It’s just that the team decided they needed to send Burriss down for some mechanical issue, and it happened to be within four days of Frandsen being sent down, which meant they couldn’t bring Frandsen up. The only other infielder they could’ve brought up was Velez, and the team didn’t want to do that for an unknown reason.
"The knowledge of the game is inversely proportional to the price of the seat." ---Bill Veeck. •Now you can follow SFDugout.com on Twitter and Facebook!•
by BruteSentiment on Jun 23, 2009 12:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Burriss was hitting .25/.306/.283 when Frandsen was sent down. Weirdest move we’ve made this year?
Adoptive parent of Noah Lowry.
:-(
by Cookyman on Jun 23, 2009 1:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree, calling up Downs was absolutely the right thing to do at the time. But if they leave him as the starter even after Frandsen is eligible to return, it’ll be a decision based on flukiness.
by Evan on Jun 23, 2009 1:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The question is why they sent Frandsen down in the first place.
Adoptive parent of Noah Lowry.
:-(
by Cookyman on Jun 23, 2009 1:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Because he went 2 for 28, of course. Clearly not ready yet.
by Evan on Jun 23, 2009 1:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If that really is the case, they're idiots.
They discovered some mechanical issue with Burriss that only became apparent after Frandsen was sent down? Some flaw that was hidden up until June 11th and then suddenly revealed itself and, in the course of four games, became so urgent they couldn’t wait another week, but had to make a 40-man roster move?
I think it’s more reasonable to believe they wanted to give Downs a shot over Frandsen for whatever reason.
Meet my new son: Sundrendy Windster, coming soon to a minor league near you.
by EliminateMe on Jun 23, 2009 4:50 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe Bam-Bam is a better hitting instructor than Carney ?
My adopted son Matt Downs . Ranked as the 24th best prospect in the Giants farm system by Baseball America !!
by nvsfg on Jun 23, 2009 7:50 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually in that 5 days Burriss went from an 0-16 slump to an 0-27 slump. I think the perception is that you can’t send someone down after an 0-16.
"Don't trust anyone under the age of 30" - Brian Sabean
by Smotheredinhugs on Jun 23, 2009 10:00 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
For anyone with half a Brain
Whether Burriss was 0-16 or 0-27 was fairly immaterial. He was hitting regardless, even when he was “hitting”
by FairweatherFan on Jun 23, 2009 10:35 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with Mayor. As soon as Downs starts performing at a level below what the Giants brain trust thinks Kevin Frandsen can do, they’ll send him down & Frandsen comes alive.
El Presidente Larry Baer's epitaph
"Nothing important ever happened without me."
by ResDog on Jun 23, 2009 11:14 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Anybody But Frandsen
I think it’s an official position – I’ve even seen their trucks on the road.
Sergio Romo: striking out professional hitters since 2005. And winner of the 2012 NL Fireman of the Year Award!
by Lyle on Jun 23, 2009 9:29 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
150+ comments on Matt Downs!
And most of it on topic!
I love you guys.
by Lars The Wanderer on Jun 23, 2009 10:17 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
POKEMON!
Judgment Day is coming
comics | art | Nattowear
by Natto on Jun 23, 2009 10:39 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lars’ love is complete.
El Presidente Larry Baer's epitaph
"Nothing important ever happened without me."
by ResDog on Jun 23, 2009 10:41 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have a bias towards Downs since watching the solid production from him and his cohort at SJ last year. But Fairweather’s stats make an impression. Intangible-wise…here are some guesses of mine
*1. Power. Fresno and San Jose batted Downs 5th or so. Fresno opened with Downs hitting 2 and Frandsen 3. By mid May, Frandsen was always hitting 2nd, and Downs mostly 5, sometimes 3 or 4, rarely 6. In more of an RBI spot than Rohlinger (who has a few bigleague ABs and a rep for “pop” or Copeland. Often right after Guzman. This, I think, is a decision by manager trying to win.
*2 more power: Frandsen with all the GIDPs this year and not hitting the ball out of the infield that often in RBI spots does not generate confidence.
*3 Southern gamyness: I am a New Yorker and Calif guy, and I think this team needs more crackers like Thompson, Will Clark to join with Cain, and soon Posey. The mellow Seattle and Bay area guys are central to this team (Winn, Ishi, Frands, Tim L, Zito, Rowand; Wilson acts like a Calif guy too), but the southern rednecks bring a nastiness, a football mentality that spices things up in a good way. I noticed Cain hanging mostly with Aurilia and Downs in the dugout last night when it wasn’t just the 4 SPs all together. Of course Bochy has that Florida/military drawl too.
4. *more gamyness. True, Downs looked terrible in the outfield in Spring. But they shoved him out there several times anyway. I can’t find the stats, but I recall Downs played 1B when that was needed in 08, and filled in at short.
cheering for Adam Witter, who will hit bigleague dingers some day.
Still yelling "Go, Antoan"
by foothillsfan on Jun 23, 2009 10:27 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Did you really just argue that the team needs more White guys?
by FairweatherFan on Jun 23, 2009 10:36 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Alvin Dark?
Is that you?
Supporting San Francisco Dugout since 2005 and Manny Burriss since 2006, and bringing you all your California League needs since 2009.
by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Jun 23, 2009 10:43 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
/ golf clap
Yes, This is still a 79 win squad.
Where is my beer & chili dog?
by daveinexile on Jun 23, 2009 10:51 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Frank White
for manager
Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."
There's 3 ways to do something: the right way, the wrong way, and the Max Power/ Ginats Way...
by natteringnabob on Jun 23, 2009 11:02 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Frank White
Part time color commentator for the Royals on FSN.
Hm.
Supporting San Francisco Dugout since 2005 and Manny Burriss since 2006, and bringing you all your California League needs since 2009.
by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Jun 23, 2009 3:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Needs more
Bud Black and Chris Brown. Benetton broadcast team FTW!
Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."
There's 3 ways to do something: the right way, the wrong way, and the Max Power/ Ginats Way...
by natteringnabob on Jun 23, 2009 4:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Already have Vida Blue in the fold
That’s why we should have drafted Grant Green.
Supporting San Francisco Dugout since 2005 and Manny Burriss since 2006, and bringing you all your California League needs since 2009.
by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Jun 23, 2009 4:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Roy G. Biv
for the complete set!
Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."
There's 3 ways to do something: the right way, the wrong way, and the Max Power/ Ginats Way...
by natteringnabob on Jun 23, 2009 5:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Giants could hire that singer Pink to do music.
by SFGuy on Jun 24, 2009 12:26 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I read that as “More gayness.”
Judgment Day is coming
comics | art | Nattowear
by Natto on Jun 23, 2009 10:39 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Same
Then again i should havecaught on when Downs carried a sparkler with him after a double.
by Giant Voodoo on Jun 25, 2009 10:52 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
In 07
Downs Played all the infield positions but pitcher and catcher. Most of his time was at 1st with quite a bit at 3rd. Played them all well during his time here in SK.
Adopted father of Brian Bocock, Brad Boyer, Sharlon Schoop, Shane Jordan and Jeremiah Luster,Trey Webb and David Quinowski.
by RichH on Jun 23, 2009 11:13 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lewis and Medders are also from the south.
Adoptive parent of Noah Lowry.
:-(
by Cookyman on Jun 23, 2009 1:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Gamyness
I think generally you try to get rid of that by tenderizing the meat before you bring it up to the big leagues.
Still backing Notgardo, wheresoever he may wander. (Don't forget to wriiiite!)
by tk on Jun 23, 2009 2:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
…just let it simmah…
Sergio Romo: striking out professional hitters since 2005. And winner of the 2012 NL Fireman of the Year Award!
by Lyle on Jun 23, 2009 4:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
yes I did argue for white guys. From the South. I am not Al Dark, and I am on record supporting Fred L., Thomas Neal, Velez, and plenty of guys of all colors and origins. Look at the way Winn does not react at all after striking out. that’s what I’m talkin about.
More important, the front office may think this way.
There will always be a full range of colors and backgrounds on the team. A few crackers help the culture in my opinion. I think “crackers” is politically incorrect today, sorry.
cheering for Adam Witter, who will hit bigleague dingers some day.
Still yelling "Go, Antoan"
by foothillsfan on Jun 23, 2009 12:32 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Wow.
Judgment Day is coming
comics | art | Nattowear
by Natto on Jun 23, 2009 12:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That just happened.
El Presidente Larry Baer's epitaph
"Nothing important ever happened without me."
by ResDog on Jun 23, 2009 12:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
This just in:
by FairweatherFan on Jun 23, 2009 12:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Whole Wheat Crackers?
Not pure!
by FairweatherFan on Jun 23, 2009 1:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
too many rye crackers
spoil the snack mix
Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."
There's 3 ways to do something: the right way, the wrong way, and the Max Power/ Ginats Way...
by natteringnabob on Jun 23, 2009 4:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I formally apologize to anybody who I might have told they had the stupidest reasoning in the world before. I was wrong.
Barry Zito: Mike Hampton with a guitar
by JakeS on Jun 23, 2009 1:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not to mention
Coupled with an Epic reply fail
by FairweatherFan on Jun 23, 2009 2:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
'cause ya know
The brotha’s, as a whole – are such a group of reactionary, mild mannered, gentile fellas. They really need to get into the game more, show a little more emotion.
Especially that Milton Bradley guy.
And the Latin players – Not enough fire! Someone needs to show Zambrano how to be more “spicy” when he’s beating the shit out of the water cooler next time. Totally doing it wrong.
by FairweatherFan on Jun 23, 2009 2:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, but, you see, he opened his comment mentioning that he’s not a racist, so whatever he said after that is OK. That’s how it works.
Adoptive parent of Noah Lowry.
:-(
by Cookyman on Jun 23, 2009 2:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Also, he has lots of black players he roots for.
Barry Zito: Mike Hampton with a guitar
by JakeS on Jun 23, 2009 2:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Milton Bradley is black?!?
Who knew?
Meet my new son: Sundrendy Windster, coming soon to a minor league near you.
by EliminateMe on Jun 24, 2009 1:21 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No no, I get it. You have a color TV, so you think it’s fine to say things like this.
Wait. No. What you said makes no goddamn sense at all.
Supporting San Francisco Dugout since 2005 and Manny Burriss since 2006, and bringing you all your California League needs since 2009.
by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Jun 23, 2009 3:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
lol you
GROUGTHINK ALERT
Chatterbalks dot com: Still with jokes. Now with updates.
by groug on Jun 23, 2009 6:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Frandsen may get his shot soon
Aurilia is going to miss the St. Louis series to go to his father’s funeral, according the Schulman. Seems like that may be a time they’ll bring Frandsen up, and then make a decision at the end of Aurilia’s bereavement leave as to which one goes down.
"The knowledge of the game is inversely proportional to the price of the seat." ---Bill Veeck. •Now you can follow SFDugout.com on Twitter and Facebook!•
by BruteSentiment on Jun 23, 2009 12:51 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
“Hey, so your dad died….ummm, you’re fired.”
by xanthan on Jun 23, 2009 12:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Eh, even if that is the case he will be fine. Richie can live off of the big bucks his wife is bringing in with her singing career!
by Lars The Wanderer on Jun 23, 2009 1:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It reminds me of those sitcom moments where the guy is trying to break up with his girlfriend but her dad passes away.
Judgment Day is coming
comics | art | Nattowear
by Natto on Jun 23, 2009 1:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
“We just want to make sure you have time to spend with your family. A lot of time…”
Barry Zito: Mike Hampton with a guitar
by JakeS on Jun 23, 2009 1:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That made me LOL
“Hey Richie, we’ve got some good news and bad news. The bad news is your grandfather died. The good news is you don’t have to hurry back from the funeral!”
My adopted Giant: "Raptor Jesus" Guzman
by Goofus on Jun 24, 2009 11:04 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I apologize immensely for insulting people of any geographic orientation. And all of you are free to swear that you have never made a comment about any group or label.
Dang, I thought it was a pro diversity comment—this team is loaded with West Coast talent although lots of baseball is played in the Southeast. Then I stupidly used the C word. Apologies. I guess we should all be careful, esp. since some radio guy was rude a year or 2 ago.
cheering for Adam Witter, who will hit bigleague dingers some day.
Still yelling "Go, Antoan"
by foothillsfan on Jun 23, 2009 4:01 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Dude, did you even read your own comment? You said you want white people from the south, not just people from the south, because you don’t like the way black players react when they strikeout.
Adoptive parent of Noah Lowry.
:-(
by Cookyman on Jun 23, 2009 4:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m glad I’m not the only one who basically went “wait what?” here.
Supporting San Francisco Dugout since 2005 and Manny Burriss since 2006, and bringing you all your California League needs since 2009.
by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Jun 23, 2009 4:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
FIRST!
by FairweatherFan on Jun 23, 2009 4:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
blurst
Supporting San Francisco Dugout since 2005 and Manny Burriss since 2006, and bringing you all your California League needs since 2009.
by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Jun 23, 2009 5:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
actually my comment about non reacting after striking out was about Winn only, who I lumped with the West Coast guys. There are so few black players coming out of the South, I have no idea what they are like anymore. McCovey, Mays, this team has done well with Southerners in the past. Yep there were stupid things about my original comments.
cheering for Adam Witter, who will hit bigleague dingers some day.
Still yelling "Go, Antoan"
by foothillsfan on Jun 23, 2009 4:50 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
There are so few black players coming out of the South, I have no idea what they are like anymore
I’d imagine they’re male (I can check that for you) and they play baseball. Y’know, like the other ballplayers that come from that part of the nation. And the other parts of the nation. And the world.
Supporting San Francisco Dugout since 2005 and Manny Burriss since 2006, and bringing you all your California League needs since 2009.
by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Jun 23, 2009 4:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
BUT BLACK PEOPLE ARE DIFFERENT
THEY CAN DANCE
by FairweatherFan on Jun 23, 2009 4:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
But what other broad generalizations can we assume about them?
El Presidente Larry Baer's epitaph
"Nothing important ever happened without me."
by ResDog on Jun 24, 2009 9:55 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
FHF
What you are exhibiting right now is the most insidious form of racial prejudice.
Outlandish, extreme prejudice is easily identified and ignored – but subtle ignorant prejudice like you have exhibited here has a way of sneaking into peoples every day thoughts and decisions. It is much more powerful in it’s ability to negatively influence peoples lives.
Now, I don’t know you – and I don’t want to call you a closet racist because of a string of comments on the internet. But I surely hope that you have simply mis spoke.
Also, learn to use the reply button.
by FairweatherFan on Jun 23, 2009 4:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
FWF, thanks.
So, basically I can comment about individual players. But if I make any kind of grouping, like “white guys from the South” that is racist. I can accept that, because it implies that group is better than some other groups, and it is not smart thinking. What if I had said “guys from the South with competitive spirit like Matt Downs and Will Clark and Willie Mays”, that would have been OK?
cheering for Adam Witter, who will hit bigleague dingers some day.
Still yelling "Go, Antoan"
by foothillsfan on Jun 23, 2009 5:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I suppose that’s better than drafting those lazy, non-committal guys.
Supporting San Francisco Dugout since 2005 and Manny Burriss since 2006, and bringing you all your California League needs since 2009.
by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Jun 23, 2009 5:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, but that’s the thing – it seemed that the only thing that made you think that Downs is any more competitive than Lewis is that he’s white (both are from the south). Now, if that’s all you really mean – “competitive southerners” – why say you want “crackers” (which, as far as I know, just means white, not necessarily from the South), and even specifically mention that you’re talking about white guys?
Adoptive parent of Noah Lowry.
:-(
by Cookyman on Jun 23, 2009 5:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
yep. My fondness for Will Clark’s playing has got me to a bad place. The team was good then, too. Lewis is / was an actual football player, I wish he showed some personality on the field a little more. Or would he get labeled if he did?
cheering for Adam Witter, who will hit bigleague dingers some day.
Still yelling "Go, Antoan"
by foothillsfan on Jun 23, 2009 5:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I liked his fist pump when he made the great diving catch last year: http://sanfrancisco.giants.mlb.com/media/video.jsp?content_id=2616862
Also, in searching for this video, I see that Brian Bocock is still on the 40-man roster. For some reason I didn’t think he was. Maybe it was my brain in self-preservation mode. Still, D:
Supporting San Francisco Dugout since 2005 and Manny Burriss since 2006, and bringing you all your California League needs since 2009.
by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Jun 23, 2009 5:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah
not to interrupt the “Crash” script, but I was amazed that Mr. Bocock’s Many-Stickered Suitcase is listed on the 40 man when godwilling SF is the ONE sticker that case won’t get this year.
Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."
There's 3 ways to do something: the right way, the wrong way, and the Max Power/ Ginats Way...
by natteringnabob on Jun 23, 2009 9:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, we also used to have a black, mellow player from California who was pretty good for about 15 years.
Adoptive parent of Noah Lowry.
:-(
by Cookyman on Jun 23, 2009 6:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
and that swing by Lewis against Texas—it’s in the batch that Baroness linked—where he rotates real fast from the hips and generates huge power—maybe some similarity there too.
cheering for Adam Witter, who will hit bigleague dingers some day.
Still yelling "Go, Antoan"
by foothillsfan on Jun 23, 2009 6:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It made me believe.
Supporting San Francisco Dugout since 2005 and Manny Burriss since 2006, and bringing you all your California League needs since 2009.
by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Jun 23, 2009 11:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, me too
That swing had Bonds stink all over it
by FairweatherFan on Jun 24, 2009 11:47 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
What you meant to say
I’m pretty sure – is that this team needs some red asses.
Being a red ass has about 0% to do w/ skin color or geographical place of birth.
You unfortunately lumped them together, assuming that redass = white + south.
That is a stereotype. Because it involved race, it is a racial stereo type. Because the implication was that white + south = good thus, not white + not south = not as good it became a negative racial stereotype. That is where your comment lost the audience and became unfortunate.
Had you instead just said “What this team really needs are a few Red asses like Will Clark or Jeff Kent to fire things up” You would have been 100% in the clear.
You would have also been wrong, but I digress.
You know who else was a Redass? Micheal Tucker. Definitely Black.
by FairweatherFan on Jun 24, 2009 11:51 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Kenny Lofton was a redass as well. The man knew how to push buttons.
by Lars The Wanderer on Jun 24, 2009 12:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Being a red ass has about 0% to do w/ skin color
Well, technically, it has everything to do with it..
Adoptive parent of Noah Lowry.
:-(
by Cookyman on Jun 24, 2009 1:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wow
Jonathan Sanchez. He's left-handed, like Barry Zito. His fastball breaks 80, unlike Zito.
by Aadik on Jun 23, 2009 11:12 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
if rbi baseball taught me anything, it’s that good pitching, adequate defense, and unrealistic base running will beat a stacked all star team every time
matt downs is in the adequate defense category… therefore, success
maybe it is just me in an anti fire joe morgan/ statistical analysis sorta way, but matt downs’ ab’s just feel different than the other melange that have been playing the position
i think i may be jaded by the initial excitement of trying someone new and the anticipation of possible positive results in doing so
Les Plack = more chicks
I am running roughshod over the dingerz.exe league. the dl is trying to jinx me, but im too guile-y.
by Headhunter Rollins on Jun 24, 2009 10:06 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
They may feel different
But that’s just cause you sat on your hand first. The end result is the same or worse.