What to do with Jonathan Sanchez?
by Grant on Jun 22, 2009 11:10 AM PDT
237 comments
You know, it's been a good long while since there's been on ol' timey rotation controversy. Unless you really got riled up about the Hennessey v. Correia knife fights of the past few years, or the Russ Ortiz shenanigans from 2007, the rotation has been pretty stable since Lincecum's virgin birth call-up from the minor leagues.
Jonathan Sanchez starts tonight, and while it hasn't been officially labeled as a make-or-break start, it's not not a make-or-break start. Sanchez has been good for about only four or five innings all season; he's made it past the sixth inning only once in 12 starts. He's still getting hitters to swing and miss, but he just walked you while you were reading this sentence, and he's about to do it again. Sanchez is allowing too many baserunners, and he's not so unhittable that he can get away with it.
The problem is, though, that there isn't an obvious replacement. The candidates, after the jump:
- Joe Martinez is in rookie ball, rehabbing from his injuries. Even if he were at full strength, there isn't much reason to think he'd be much better than Sanchez right now. Martinez only has two innings above AA, and while he had a fine season for Connecticut last season, he didn't miss a whole lot of bats. That doesn't mean he'll never be a major league pitcher, of course, but it doesn't bode well for short-term success, which is what the Giants would want if they're getting Sanchez out of the rotation.
- Kevin Pucetas is doing well, and he'd be the likeliest choice to come up if the Giants could clear a roster spot for him. At the risk of revealing my secret strikeout fetish, I'll note that Pucteas isn't striking out AAA batters, which makes me skeptical of his ability to hold down an ERA under 5.00 in the majors.
- Billy Sadler is walking five hitters for every nine innings he pitches in AAA. A franchise that would replace a control-challenged pitcher in the rotation with Sadler, who hasn't even been a starter for more than a couple months in his professional career, is a poorly managed franchise. That's being polite.
- Tim Alderson and Madison Bumgarner are fresh-faced young pups who have little business being in the conversation, except they keep pitching so danged well. If I had to choose one for an immediate call-up, it'd be Alderson, but I couldn't explain why. He's a little older than Bumgarner, but just by a few months. They've both shown great control, but Alderson's has remained ridiculous since moving up to AA; Bumgarner's control has just been really good. Both are used to a six-man rotation, though, so I'm not too keen on the idea of just tossing them into a major league rotation
- Ramon Ortiz is a VWKHTW, and he's doing some good work as Fresno's swingman, but he's still seven years removed from his last above-average season.
For the Giants to remove Sanchez from the rotation, there would have to be a pretty compelling solution in place. Moving from "bad" to "nearly, but not quite, as bad" doesn't seem like it's worth interrupting Sanchez's development, even though I use that term loosely. The only way the Giants have a good shot at moving from "bad" to "pretty danged ok" is by rushing Alderson and Bumgarner, and that's a plan with a ton of potential snags. The A's tried something similar with Brett Anderson and Trevor Cahill this season, and while they've both shown promise, they've both allowed a billion baserunners. I don't want to watch Alderson or Bumgarner struggle through 30-pitch second innings right now.
Then there's the idea of what to do with Sanchez. In what situation would it make sense to bring the anti-Maddux in as a reliever? Certainly not a close game -- the Giants have plenty of relievers doing well, so there shouldn't be any temptation to try Sanchez with a one-, two-, or even three-run lead. So the Giants would be forced to treat Sanchez like a Rule 5 pick, putting a cone around his neck so he doesn't chew at the wound. The Giants still have an option on Sanchez, but unless he were completely on board with the idea that he needs to clear his mind in the minors, that seems like a one-way ticket to a sulking, confidence-free project.
No easy solutions here, so I'd be willing to give Sanchez a few more starts unless he pitches even worse than he has in his four- and five-inning masterpieces. Hopefully he starts by shutting down the vaunted A's lineup tonight. In the meantime, I'll just forget about the shiny objects Sanchez could have brought back in trade this offseason, and how much better the team would be right now if Kevin Correia were the fifth starter.
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Meh
Keep throwing him out there and hope he gets better.
by Lars The Wanderer on Jun 22, 2009 11:11 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
+1
As frustrating as he is, he’s the fifth starter, the other four dudes have been pretty good about going deep into games and the other options aren’t much better. Don’t hesitate to skip some of his starts if the opportunity arises though.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on Jun 22, 2009 11:14 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, without a viable replacement and without the ability to send him down I don’t see any other appealing option. He’s been pretty bad, to be sure, but pitchers who can strike out a batter an inning in the majors are not exactly a dime a dozen and I don’t buy into the idea that he’ll be able to work through his issues pitching in mop-up duty out of the bullpen any better than going every fifth day in the rotation.
Barry Zito: Mike Hampton with a guitar
by JakeS on Jun 22, 2009 1:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
right, and it seems that the problem with Sanchez is more mental than physical. he lets mistakes get to him and it just compounds his wildness. Now, obviously, he seems to have problems repeating his delivery, which is a physical one, but his inability to find the right slot is mental, too.
I suggest pushing back or skipping one of his starts, assuming he struggles again tonight.
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Jun 22, 2009 1:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I really don’t get the thing about how he “lets his mistakes get to him”. Kruk has been saying it for while, and everybody to seems agree, but I just see a pitcher with great stuff, poor control, and no stamina. When he breaks down, it’s because he’s walking people and/or is tired. I’ve haven’t really seen anything that made think that there’s anything else to it. His numbers. by the way, have been much better with runners on base than with the bases empty this year (1.73 K/BB compared to 1.00), and over his career, he’s been pretty much the same pitcher:
Bases empty: .257/.358/.420, 1.86 K/BB.
Runners on: .266/.358/.411, 1.83 K/BB.
And just for the heck of it:
RISP: .269/.368/.395, 1.83 K/BB (not including IBB).
Dude’s a machine!
Adoptive parent of Noah Lowry.
:-(
by Cookyman on Jun 22, 2009 2:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
This I agree with. Sanchez’s problem seems to be the same one he’s always had that made him the 20something round draft pick he was – he’s never been able to repeat his delivery consistently enough to throw enough strikes.
Barry Zito: Mike Hampton with a guitar
by JakeS on Jun 22, 2009 2:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
This
Judgment Day is coming
comics | art | Nattowear
by Natto on Jun 22, 2009 11:21 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree, throw him out there and let God sort it out
by jctGamer on Jun 22, 2009 11:22 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
sure worked for Ishi!
STEVE HOLM! refuses to be the odd man out.
by UnleashTheGore on Jun 22, 2009 11:24 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Or, um, Sadler.
Adoptive parent of Noah Lowry.
:-(
by Cookyman on Jun 22, 2009 2:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
God sorted him to AAA.
Duane Kuiper: Hall Of Fame broadcaster.
by Johnny Disaster on Jun 22, 2009 4:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Apparently
God has been spending an inordinate amount of time concerning itself with the San Francisco Giants.
by Rorsavelt on Jun 23, 2009 2:37 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sanchez has the talent and the stuff.
He really needs to work on not letting shit get to him so easily.
by SoFa King Mike on Jun 22, 2009 12:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I read one comment and it summed up the best viable solution just fine.
I don’t see any reason why I would need to read any of the other comments in this thread.
Except that I want to waste time right now.
"Catcher are base running. Hitters are offense."
Only [hella] games left until the end of Zito's [no, make that Rowand's] contract.
Adoptive father of "Poncho" Villalona: This Angel don't fly. Nothing about him is light.
by thehavenot on Jun 22, 2009 2:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
TRADE HIM FOR CANTWOOOO
GIANTZ BRAZZZZZ
by jctGamer on Jun 22, 2009 11:13 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Please don't call up the kids from AA
Let’s not fool with their progression. All you need from a 5th starter is someone that can get through 5 innings and give up three runs or so. I think Pucetas can do that. And to clear the roster spot, all the cool kids already know they gotta get rid of Richie.
STEVE HOLM! refuses to be the odd man out.
by UnleashTheGore on Jun 22, 2009 11:14 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
To answer the question, though...
I’d skip Sanchez’s start and have a “bullpen night”, where you start Merkin and just have 3 or 4 relievers pitch the game.
STEVE HOLM! refuses to be the odd man out.
by UnleashTheGore on Jun 22, 2009 11:17 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Coming up are some offdays I thought where he could be skipped once or twice. And you could always call it a “bullpen night” and you could have Sanchez start and go only a few innings.
The Basil Fawlty Moderating Strategy:
"We could run a nice blog here if we didn't have all these members getting in the way."
Kevin Frandsen, come back!
by WalrusMan on Jun 22, 2009 12:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I always liked that experiment
Has anyone seen any interviews with LaRussa commenting on what he thought of that experiment in retrospect?
"[Greg] Vaughn is in a funk so deep, George Clinton wearing a miner's helmet couldn't find him."
- Jim Baker, ESPN.com, May 2002
by achiappanza on Jun 22, 2009 2:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm supporting Sanchez for obvious reasons
But I don’t think it would be the worst thing in the world to send him to AAA to work on his control for a little bit; this team jerked him around a lot from starting to relieving, so I’d want him to be on board with it if we did.
I actually would prefer to give Alderson the shot as well – his ceiling is lower (and I think he’s pretty close to it), and I think he could probably pitch in the big-leagues right now. Giving him a shot for 1-2 starts (with a clear understanding that this wasn’t permanent) wouldn’t be awful.
Jonathan Sanchez. He's left-handed, like Barry Zito. His fastball breaks 80, unlike Zito.
by Aadik on Jun 22, 2009 11:17 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, if we had to call up someone, I think I’d be okay with it being Alderson.
MadBum should under no circumstances be called up this year at all.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on Jun 22, 2009 11:18 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I thought he was out of options? Teams would line up to claim Sanchez if we tried to put him through waivers to get him down to AAA.
Barry Zito: Mike Hampton with a guitar
by JakeS on Jun 22, 2009 1:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sanchez has one more option left.
Judgment Day is coming
comics | art | Nattowear
by Natto on Jun 22, 2009 1:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Huh, guess I just assumed with all the juggling the team had done of him he was out. In that case, I wouldn’t be that upset if he were sent down for a little bit, in fact, I’d prefer it to moving him to the bullpen.
Barry Zito: Mike Hampton with a guitar
by JakeS on Jun 22, 2009 1:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Baggs had misheard and then misreported. I guess Shulman had misheard the same guy.
co-dad of IshikaBOOM w/AfDC.
Ishikawa, let the boy hit against lefties.
by kennv on Jun 22, 2009 1:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah. they asked “is he out of options?” and the answer was “Yes, he has an option left.” I guess they only heard the “yes” part of the answer.
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Jun 22, 2009 1:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
if we're going to trade him/replace him out of the rotation
I’d rather we sign a FA like Pedro(although recent news makes him less appealing) or Ben Sheets.
by superk1ng on Jun 22, 2009 11:17 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
The rumors since this winter have been that Sheets has an informal deal in place with Texas when and if he’s ready to pitch again.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
by Roger on Jun 22, 2009 11:54 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2009/06/rangers-unlikely-to-take-on-salary.html
We can always outbid them if it comes down to money. Baggs said the Giants would have no problem adding pay roll, in fact, they’re using that as a bargaining chip in trade talks.
I have no problem sticking with Sanchez, but if they’re going to replace him, I’d rather they do it with somebody good.
by superk1ng on Jun 22, 2009 12:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t want Martinez or Sheets. Sanchez has a 5.54 ERA right now, and I don’t believe that Pucetas or Sadler would pitch too much worse. Let’s get Winn and Molina’s salaries off the books before we start signing FA’s again.
by quincy0191 on Jun 22, 2009 9:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe skipping a start would help. Maybe a few weeks in the bullpen would help. Maybe a few weeks in Fresno would help. Maybe giving him a vote of confidence and leaving him alone would help. No way to know, really. I just hope management makes the right choice.
If they do leave him in the rotation, Bochy needs to get him out of the game sooner, fer heaven’s sake.
by Evan on Jun 22, 2009 11:24 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
If he’s out of the game any sooner than what’s the point in having him start.
by SeeingStars on Jun 22, 2009 11:29 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I dunno — but look at his pitch-count splits here. Over the last year and a half, opposing batters have hit around .250/.325/.390 against him in his first 45 pitches. That’s pretty great. After that, they’ve hit .290/.420/.525. That’s … not pretty great. And he’s getting worse.
If they want to try to make him into a real starter, fine, but Bochy MUST have a quick hook or they’re just giving games away.
by Evan on Jun 22, 2009 1:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Best stat I’ve seen yet to show that he belongs in the pen
by OTTOMATIC on Jun 22, 2009 1:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
maybe he’s not in the best shape he could be in either. The more the game drags on, the more tired (physically and mentally) he gets.
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Jun 22, 2009 1:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
To bad he couldn’t have a “get it together” start against our line up.
Minor White > Ansel Adams
by say hey nation on Jun 22, 2009 11:37 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Actually
Probably the next best thing than a start against us would be a start against the A’s…or the Mariners
by Mrbasepaul on Jun 22, 2009 11:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would guess “veteran who knows how to win”
however I suppose he could also be a
“velociraptor wearing knarly hollow turquoise wings”
by Merope on Jun 22, 2009 12:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
pretty sure it's "gnarly"
STEVE HOLM! refuses to be the odd man out.
by UnleashTheGore on Jun 22, 2009 12:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
veiled white kiansman half-tranny whore?
by sayheybk on Jun 22, 2009 1:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Or as we call that in San Francisco, a guy from Pacific Heights.
Thank you, thank you. (adjusts tie)
Forsan et haec olim meminisse iuvabit... Maybe.
by Mayor of 311 on Jun 22, 2009 4:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Very Well Known to Hate the World?
Duane Kuiper: Hall Of Fame broadcaster.
by Johnny Disaster on Jun 22, 2009 4:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Joe Martinez
Dude gets groundballs. Anyways, leave Sanchez in the rotation until Martinez works up his arm strength, then, if Sanchez is still sucking, let Joey have a shot at the 5th spot.
Proud father of Juan Carlos Perez. Think Albert Pujols at second.
by marcello on Jun 22, 2009 11:44 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
This
El Presidente Larry Baer's epitaph
"Nothing important ever happened without me."
by ResDog on Jun 22, 2009 1:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sanchez might needs some competition for his job. that certainly would get anyone’s attention.
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Jun 22, 2009 1:44 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Unfortunately
We have a hard time fielding ground balls. So a dude who gets groundballs will not have fun on the mound
by Mrbasepaul on Jun 23, 2009 12:00 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hopefully they’ll all get hit to Ishi.
Proud father of Juan Carlos Perez. Think Albert Pujols at second.
by marcello on Jun 23, 2009 10:04 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think we are pretty spoiled with the top of our rotation to think that Dirty Sanchez is that unbearable as a 5th starter. Keep sending him out there.
Hitler was a Dodgers fan.
by The Nick on Jun 22, 2009 11:46 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
This.
Merkin Valdez? Manuel Mateo? A rose by any other name...
by rotorueter on Jun 22, 2009 12:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
We have to have a great rotation. We have no offense, and I have little faith in Zito and Johnson to be consistent. Sometimes they’re great, sometimes they’re awful. We need a fifth starter who posts a 4.00 ERA and goes 6-7 innings per start. Admittedly, having Timmeh and Cain in the rotation makes us expect a lot of the other guys, but this is a team that’s going to be built on pitching and we need a great rotation if we are going to contend.
by quincy0191 on Jun 22, 2009 9:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have no faith in the team to win in Sanchez's starts
It feels like watching early last year Zito
The artist formerly known as Set-up man
by CB30 on Jun 22, 2009 11:47 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Hi
My name is Kevin, and I’ve started 14 games, thrown 80 innings w/ a 4.26 ERA and 4.06 FIP.
I’m throwing the best K/9 of my career coupled with the lowest BB/9. Word on the street is a pitching coach with my new team noticed something funny about my follow through. I worked on it and what do ya know?
And, believe it or not – my current team got me for free because my previous team didn’t think I was worth even keeping around.
:(
by FairweatherFan on Jun 22, 2009 11:54 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
2006 he had better K/9 and BB/9 but it was out of the pen.
I always liked Correia though and wish he was the 5th starter.
by Hobbes2d on Jun 22, 2009 11:56 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I am on record
As wishing the giants had held onto him
by FairweatherFan on Jun 22, 2009 12:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m not sure what my record is but I always thought he could be good, if not nasty at some times.
The Basil Fawlty Moderating Strategy:
"We could run a nice blog here if we didn't have all these members getting in the way."
Kevin Frandsen, come back!
by WalrusMan on Jun 22, 2009 12:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Your record is either “The White Album” or “Revolver”, isn’t it?
"Are we bad? No. But right now, we are." Boulderskull, 4.16.09
by Kitspool on Jun 22, 2009 12:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Two points
Yes I have both on vinyl and yes I am wearing my Revolver shirt right now.
The Basil Fawlty Moderating Strategy:
"We could run a nice blog here if we didn't have all these members getting in the way."
Kevin Frandsen, come back!
by WalrusMan on Jun 22, 2009 12:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Is it the cool one from Target?
That runs down the right side?
I’m wearing my Abbey Road shirt, found a nice one in Army Green.
Adoptive parental unit of Ehire Adrianza.
Godfather of Travis Ishikawa.
"I'm really proud to be on this team." - Nate Schierholtz
"Woo hoo" - Tim "The Kid" Lincecum
"Let's go get them in 2009!" - The Kid
"He got his pitch; he did not miss it" - Cainer
"Kung Fu Panda don't get hurt" - Cainer
by obsessivegiantscompulsive on Jun 22, 2009 1:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Forget where I got it but yes, it’s that one.
The Basil Fawlty Moderating Strategy:
"We could run a nice blog here if we didn't have all these members getting in the way."
Kevin Frandsen, come back!
by WalrusMan on Jun 22, 2009 1:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pffft
Things I predicted:
- Fred Lewis’s AVG will drop to .260 this season.
- Matt Cain will get run support, and everyone will talk about how he’s learned how to win.
- 2008 Barry Zito is actually going to be worse than 2007 Barry Zito:
McC projected Zito’s ’08 ERA at 4.32.
Mr. Pessimistic - coockyman wins this one with his frightening projection of 5.21. He was the only user to project Zito with a 5+ ERA.
[…]
McC projected Zito for a BB/9 of 3.84, nearly identical to his BB/9 in ’07 of 3.80.
Mr. Pessimistic – coockyman strikes again with his pessimism! His BB/9 of 5.21 is 1.41 over Zito’s ’07 BB
(From xanthan’s community projection post from early 2008. Oh, how little did he know.)
Adoptive parent of Noah Lowry.
:-(
by Cookyman on Jun 22, 2009 3:50 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
COOKYMAN WUZ RITE!
I wonder why I kept misspelling your name? Did it used to be Coockyman?
by xanthan on Jun 22, 2009 3:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think that’s how I used to spell it, though I’m not sure why.
Adoptive parent of Noah Lowry.
:-(
by Cookyman on Jun 22, 2009 4:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wouldn’t get so forlorn about him just yet. It was known he had his moments before you walked out on him. Just don’t forget the time that he stayed out drinking with his buddies on your anniversary. Stay strong sista!
by Rorsavelt on Jun 23, 2009 2:45 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
People keep saying the 5th starter’s job is to get to the 5th inning, well Sanchez struggles to just do that most of the time. He’s a fucking train wreck out there. He genuinely often looks uncomfortable on the mound and has poor body language and doesn’t seem to have much confidence a lot of the time. He needs to be sent to AAA and given some time to work on some things.
I think Pucetas is the best option. I would love to see Alderson and he’s probably ready, but to be honest I’m intrigued by Pucetas. Guy just seems to know how to pitch by all indications. He has skipped AA and responded very well. He has won at every single stop, and last I checked just because you don’t strike out 9 guys everytime out doesn’t make you a bad pitcher.
by Hobbes2d on Jun 22, 2009 11:54 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
last I checked just because you don’t strike out 9 guys everytime out doesn’t make you a bad pitcher.
Maybe not 9, but the list of guys w/ lower than 6 K/9 rates and successful careers is pretty exclusive.
by FairweatherFan on Jun 22, 2009 12:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
are there any?
I can’t think of any off the top of my head
by superk1ng on Jun 22, 2009 12:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Really?
Warren Spahn 4.4 K/9 ERA + 118
Bob Ojeda 5.4 K/9 ERA + 104
Jamie Moyer 5.4 K/9 ERA + 105
I just looked up 3 guys, and all 3 were under 6 K/9 and all have career winning records. One being a HOF. All 3 from different eras picked at random. Moyer has the highest career ERA in the low 4’s. But all of them were better than 5th starters in their peaks.
by Hobbes2d on Jun 22, 2009 12:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think it’s more useful to compare those K/9 to the league average K/9 during those players’ careers. Spahn, for example, certainly played in an era where pitchers didn’t get as many strikeouts as they do now.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on Jun 22, 2009 12:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Paul Byrd 4.9 K/9 104 ERA +
Derek Lowe 5.9 K/9 121 ERA +
Tom Glavine 5.3 K/9 118 ERA +
Also say hello.
by Hobbes2d on Jun 22, 2009 12:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bobby J Jones 5.3 K/9 ERA + 94
Livan Hernandez 5.7 K/9 ERA + 97
All 5 of those guys were all-star pitchers at some point in their career. I can keep looking for examples, they aren’t that hard to find.
by Hobbes2d on Jun 22, 2009 12:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Correction
There was never anyone named “Bobby Jones” who played baseball, or if there was he certainly never pitched a playoff game against the Giants.
"Are we bad? No. But right now, we are." Boulderskull, 4.16.09
by Kitspool on Jun 22, 2009 12:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m also pretty sure there was never a “Livan Hernandez”. Man where do you come up with this stuff?
by lincypoo i wuv u on Jun 22, 2009 12:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
There are exceptions to every rule, sure. But Pucetas has a K rate equivalent to these guys, but in AAA.
by Evan on Jun 22, 2009 1:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Mark Buehrle only struck out 5.2 per 9 in AA.
Pucetas is 5.7 per 9 at AAA and skipped AA completely. He was 7.3 per 9 at SJ.
Joe Saunders first hit AAA at 24 like Pucetas and he only K’d 4.7 per 9 at AAA.
Pucetas has better K per 9 rates than Roy Halladay did coming up through the minors. In 56 starts at AAA, Halladay had a 5.1 K/9.
Jake Westbrook another AS pitcher, with a career 4.9 K/9 in the majors, his AAA K/9 is only slightly better than Pucetas at 6.3.
Again I really don’t know why people keep trying to downplay Pucetas. He skipped AA entirely, and he’s excelling at AAA. The guy clearly knows how to pitch and his stuff might be average but it’s not like he throws 80 MPH up there.
by Hobbes2d on Jun 22, 2009 2:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
There are a lot of pitchers will middling stuff but good pitchability who dominate the minor leagues and never cut it in the majors. A lot of pitchers. Nobody is saying that you have to have great stuff to make it in the big leagues but it gives you a much better shot.
Barry Zito: Mike Hampton with a guitar
by JakeS on Jun 22, 2009 2:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
pitchability? Duuuuuude you been watching too many commercials.
by Merope on Jun 22, 2009 3:50 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Heh, not my favorite word either.
Barry Zito: Mike Hampton with a guitar
by JakeS on Jun 22, 2009 4:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
But look at what these guys did in their first go-round in the majors. Derek Lowe had a 6.96 ERA his rookie year. Saunders threw 9 innings and allowed 8 runs. Even Glavine had a 5.54 ERA. Buehrle was pretty good right from the start, but he had much better control than Pucetas.
I’m not saying Pucetas isn’t a prospect. On the contrary, his stock has gone way up this season. But I am saying that it’s very unlikely he’ll be able to help this year.
by Evan on Jun 22, 2009 5:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yup, they’re just giving away guys who hit .400
by quincy0191 on Jun 22, 2009 9:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If we call up Alderson or Bumgarner, don’t we (unneccesarily) start their MLB clock, insuring we lose them/pay big dollars just that much sooner?
by allfrank on Jun 22, 2009 12:00 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Yes
But if this team is legitimately playoff bound (via wildcard) that is a cost worth paying.
Besides, if you DID call up Alderson now, it would be with the understanding that he would likely be in the rotation in 2010.
by FairweatherFan on Jun 22, 2009 12:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not really
Actually, it is not a cost worth paying if it costs us competitiveness later, when the team is much stronger offensively (with all our top offensive guys coming up, games he pitches then will have better offenses than the current offense; or at least one would hope) and better able to go deep into the playoffs.
Adoptive parental unit of Ehire Adrianza.
Godfather of Travis Ishikawa.
"I'm really proud to be on this team." - Nate Schierholtz
"Woo hoo" - Tim "The Kid" Lincecum
"Let's go get them in 2009!" - The Kid
"He got his pitch; he did not miss it" - Cainer
"Kung Fu Panda don't get hurt" - Cainer
by obsessivegiantscompulsive on Jun 22, 2009 1:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cain – Lincecum – Johnson – Zito Phoenix
Can go quite deep in the playoffs even with an anemic offense.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
by Viliphied on Jun 22, 2009 1:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
hence
But if this team is legitimately playoff bound (via wildcard) that is a cost worth paying.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
by Viliphied on Jun 22, 2009 1:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Caution, run-on sentence ahead
The problem with throwing Sanchez out there start after start, with diminishing returns, is that even though he may be a “league-average 5th starter” that argument ignores the fact his teammates don’t appear confident right now they can win behind him.
This is way different than failing to give Matt Cain run support for three seasons or whatever. Right now the team that opposes the Giants during a Sanchez start has like an 80% chance of winning the game as well as a 90% chance of seeing three or more members of our bullpen—which becomes an issue in Timmy’s starts if Medders/Romo/Affeldt/Howry/etc. have to make two straight appearances in two days.
I don’t know what the best solution is but keeping Sanchez on his regular start schedule probably isn’t it.
"Are we bad? No. But right now, we are." Boulderskull, 4.16.09
by Kitspool on Jun 22, 2009 12:05 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Right now the team that opposes the Giants during a Sanchez start has like an 80% chance of winning the game as well as a 90% chance of seeing three or more members of our bullpen
I am pretty sure that these percentages came from jcb9’s ass.
by Lars The Wanderer on Jun 22, 2009 12:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
80% chance, huh? I would love to make a bet at 4-to-1 odds on the Giants winning tonight’s game.
THE GREATEST OF ALL TIME (for 3 days in 1995).
by Mike Benjamin Hit King on Jun 22, 2009 12:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, the Giants are 3-9 in games Sanchez starts this season, so that means the opponent is winning 75% of the time (not 80%, I admit, but close enough).
And three or more Giants relievers have pitched in 8 of Sanchez’ 12 starts. So, not 90%, but 67%. Still higher than any other starter on the team, with the possible exception of The Big Unit.
"Are we bad? No. But right now, we are." Boulderskull, 4.16.09
by Kitspool on Jun 22, 2009 12:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
There is way too much static in team winning percentage over 12 starts to draw any definitive conclusions.
Barry Zito: Mike Hampton with a guitar
by JakeS on Jun 22, 2009 1:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think the big point with this question is whether we think we’re in the playoff run or not. Clearly Sanchez is perfectly adequate as a 5th starter statistically. As Kitspool pointed out, perhaps there is a morale issue that brings him away from being adequate, but by the numbers he’s a 5th starter.
If we think we are in the playoff run, it’s definitely in our best interest to move up Alderson/Bumgarner to AAA, shop Sanchez around for whatever kind of hitter we can get, and then by the trading deadline or whenever we can get a good deal, make the deal and move up Alderson/Bumgarner.
if we think we aren’t in the playoff run, then keep Sanchez in the rotation to see if he can work it out for the rest of the year. If he doesn’t work it out by the end of this year, he’s already had two years to try to do it, and then it’s time to ship him off.
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by WalrusMan on Jun 22, 2009 12:11 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
IAWTC
I think what we do with Sanchez if he keeps struggling is completely dependent on how long we stay in contention. If we are in a penant race then nobody on here will put up with Sanchez giving away every 5th start.
After watching Sanchez pitch all year I think he could slip back into the bullpen and be our situational lefty right away. He generally cruises through the order first time and then by the third inning is getting smacked around like Tina Turner. That just reeks of reliever!
I think the org hasn’t pulled the trigger on making that move already because of Jonathans perceived value as a starter vs the pen. Well I think Sanchez has done a pretty good job of destroying any value he had as a starter for now, and while it might be better off for HIS career to try to figure things out this year, I think it’s obvious from the Giants standpoint that he would have more value in the pen.
Not only that, but it would allow us to trade someone from the pen to a team with a need there and hopefully bring back something of value. I think Valdez probably has more trade value then Sanchez right now, and I don’t think that Pucetas could do any worse as our 5th starter. If Pucetas doesn’t work out then bring up Alderson for the stretch run.
by OTTOMATIC on Jun 22, 2009 1:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think that due to his recent performance shopping Sanchez around for a hiter is a bad idea because his perceived value is at such a low. I doubt we could get back anybody that would be worth the risk that Sanchez does put it together, be it as a starter or a reliever.
Barry Zito: Mike Hampton with a guitar
by JakeS on Jun 22, 2009 1:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly! We got a bunch of guys in the pen who could bring back more than Sanchez right now and it would give us the chance to balance out the pen a little and get another left hander in there. I think we could stand to lose one of Howry/Valdez/Medders/Miller more than Sanchez and they would probably bring us back more right now to a team that is having bullpen issues.
by OTTOMATIC on Jun 22, 2009 1:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Everybody seems to overvalues their middle relievers on their team. When was the last time a team traded an average-at-best reliever like Brandon Medders or Justin Miller for anything of substance.
Barry Zito: Mike Hampton with a guitar
by JakeS on Jun 22, 2009 1:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t know… our middle relievers have been pretty awesome this year and their stats are all as good as they are going to get. There are so many teams right now with bullpen issues and I think any team that thinks they have a chance at the playoffs would be willing to give up some talent for a solid reliever with an ERA in the mid 2.00s.
by OTTOMATIC on Jun 22, 2009 1:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t think there is a GM in baseball who looks at Medders or Miller and sees a reliever who will continue to post ERAs in the low 2.00s. The last team I can remember giving up any real talent for a middle-reliever is the Giants and LaTroy Hawkins and we can’t trade them to ourselves.
Barry Zito: Mike Hampton with a guitar
by JakeS on Jun 22, 2009 1:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Leave him alone for now
This is just like the Fred Lewis debate, except without a Bowker or Schierholtz-type replacement. We don’t have an obvious upgrade for Sanchez, and our pitching rules even when he stinks up the joint.
Let me put it this way. Bob Howry has pitched around 70-80 innings over the past few years. He is currently on pace to pitch around 50 innings this season. Same goes for Affeldt. ERAs are low, our relievers are well-rested. We are fine.
Merkin Valdez? Manuel Mateo? A rose by any other name...
by rotorueter on Jun 22, 2009 12:21 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I don’t care how good Ramon Ortiz’s stats are right now, I don’t want him anywhere near San Francisco. He scares me.
I like cats.
by Norm Median on Jun 22, 2009 12:22 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
The Giants just don’t seem to do well with young / struggling players. I’m not sure why that is, though I have some outlandish ideas.
by Merope on Jun 22, 2009 12:23 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
DO TELL
I happen to be craving outlandish ideas right now
by Giant Homer on Jun 22, 2009 12:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wonder if it has anything to do with never playing them so we can trot out washed-up vets instead…
Barry Zito: Mike Hampton with a guitar
by JakeS on Jun 22, 2009 1:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Put him in the brig until he’s sober!
Randy Winn is going to catch that. And he'll do it real classy-like too.
by oldjacket on Jun 22, 2009 12:29 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I did adopt Kevin Pucetas
so don’t tell him this, but I’d rather keep Sanchez in the rotation then send him down.
If they did send him down, though, Pucetas is the obvious choice. I don’t want to rush MadBum or Alderson (give ‘em a September callup, not now), Joey isn’t ready, I could insert a number of puns related to Sadler’s walk rate, and LOLORTIZ. Plus, J.J. Cooper from BA thinks Pucetas is the real deal. Ehh? Ehh? Am I convincing or what?
Watch out Sanchez... uncle Pucetas is comin' for you.
by Sammy Danger on Jun 22, 2009 12:32 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
At this point
I’d say Alderson has the upper hand on Bummy, especially with offspeed and finishing pitches. Stemming all the way back to his intitial scouting report from high school and first hand accounts, Tim2 likes to pound the strike zone, and I like that about him.
But, somewhere in a fantasy universe, MadBum has perfected a change up to compliment that slider/fastball repertoire. Can’t wait to see that day when Bummy is skilled enough and puts mows down 27 Dodgers in a row.
by SoFa King Mike on Jun 22, 2009 12:55 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I wouldn’t mind him putting down 27 dodgers
Minor White > Ansel Adams
by say hey nation on Jun 22, 2009 1:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
How about three in the meantime?
by SoFa King Mike on Jun 22, 2009 1:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If I had to choose one for an immediate call-up, it’d be Alderson, but I couldn’t explain why
I was under the impression that Alderson’s secondary pitches were more developed and therefore may have more success initially in the majors. someone please correct me if i’m wrong
Brand new adoptive daddy for the Big Unit. Congrats go out to my son for his 300th win. Only 211 more wins until he catches Cy Young!
by Speedforthewin on Jun 22, 2009 12:56 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I’m drinking from the same Kool-Aid pitcher
by SoFa King Mike on Jun 22, 2009 12:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s because Alderson is awesome.
Judgment Day is coming
comics | art | Nattowear
by Natto on Jun 22, 2009 1:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
infallible logic
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Jun 22, 2009 1:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
His command seems like it’s better as well.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on Jun 22, 2009 1:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
AAA Fresno
Send Jonathan Sanchez down to Fresno to work on his command/control and mental approach to the game. The Giants currently lead the Wild Card and each game is extremely important so having a starter (even if he is the 5th starter) who taxes his bullpen and seldom gives his team a chance to win (3-9 in his starts) is hurting the teams chances at the playoffs.
Since Sanchez does have an option he can be sent down to find his groove. The Giants then could promote RHP Kevin Pucetas in his place. Hopefully this will give a better chance at winning.
If in playoff hunt the Giants should consider adding Madison Bumgarner to the roster on August 31 similar to what the Angels did with KRod in 2002 and Rays did with DPrice in 2008.
by wilriv21 on Jun 22, 2009 1:05 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
The Giants currently lead the Wild Card and each game is extremely important
They are just renting that spot.
If Sanchez needs to work on anything, mowing down a bunch of “never will be’s” in AAA isn’t going to help. Every starter reaches a point in each game where things don’t go their way. Sanchez’s problem is that he melts down in those situations. If he never has those types of issues in AAA, he won’t learn to work through them.
by Lars The Wanderer on Jun 22, 2009 1:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
"They are just renting that spot."
89 WINS!
El Presidente Larry Baer's epitaph
"Nothing important ever happened without me."
by ResDog on Jun 22, 2009 1:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
i wonder
how much longer this discussion is going to continue. At what point do we stop saying Contenders? and start saying Contenders!
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
by Viliphied on Jun 22, 2009 1:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I am sure that date is a great deal later than the 3rd week in June.
by Lars The Wanderer on Jun 22, 2009 1:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
After the next 3 game sweep. This place needs an ℞ for Lithium.
by Merope on Jun 22, 2009 3:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Too Hot: A couple of start ago Sanchez walked 7 batters.
Too Cold: In order to fix his last start problem Sanchez decided to throw strikes and got raked.
Just Right?: In tonight’s start can Goldilocks Sanchez get it just right?
The main problem I have with Sanchez is that there has been no progress. Whether in his pitching, mental approach, holding runners on or his batting/bunting. We pretty much know what we are going to get: 5 ip 100 pitches and Giants trailing.
by wilriv21 on Jun 22, 2009 3:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would say that the first half of last year was progress. Since then, however, he has seemed to regress. And that is, indeed, frustrating.
"Catcher are base running. Hitters are offense."
Only [hella] games left until the end of Zito's [no, make that Rowand's] contract.
Adoptive father of "Poncho" Villalona: This Angel don't fly. Nothing about him is light.
by thehavenot on Jun 22, 2009 6:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The strongest argument for a mid season trip to Fresno is not the wild card. (79 wins baby!!)
It is the fact at age 26 Sanchez only has like 550 professional innings. Correct repetition for more than 4-5 innings a time could actually really help Sanchez. Of course this assumes the AAA coaching staff is given clear instructions what the Big Club wants Sanchez working on and Sanchez is told up front "We want you back but right now you just aren’t right. Go get right and we will see you after the All Star break."
If, and only if, Sanchez is to get bounced for the rotation or be skip 2-3 times in the next month this would seem the way to go for me.
Yes, This is still a 79 win squad.
Where is my beer & chili dog?
by daveinexile on Jun 22, 2009 7:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Giants are 3-9 in last 12 sanchez starts
all i can say is… = (
by cazzuno on Jun 22, 2009 1:09 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Please skip his spot in the rotation on Sunday
That way I can see Lincecum pitch in Milwaukee. I would also be happy with seeing the MLB debut of Madison Bumgarner.
With the two off days for 2 thursdays in a row, skipping his starts both those days and giving the rest of the rotation its normal rest is a sensible way of keeping Sanchez out of the rotation for a while.
by backtocali on Jun 22, 2009 1:25 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I can safely say that you are not going to see the MLB debut of Madison Bumgarner.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on Jun 22, 2009 1:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And I can safely say some missed their morning dose
Minor White > Ansel Adams
by say hey nation on Jun 22, 2009 1:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I like this idea, but then to get in back in the rotation w/o forcing anyone else to go on short rest would be on 6/30. Then, however, we’d have a Lincecum Johnson Sanchez Cain Zito rotation until the break and I’m not sure I like having Johnson and Sanchez go back to back.
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Jun 22, 2009 1:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I can safely say I don’t like Unit then Dirty. Thats a lot of ’Pen time inside two games for a staff with out a true long relievier.
Yes, This is still a 79 win squad.
Where is my beer & chili dog?
by daveinexile on Jun 22, 2009 7:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Milwaukee?
I’ll be at both the Saturday and Sunday games in MIL. I’m hoping Sanchez skips and I can see Timmy on Sunday, because watching Zito and Sanchez get bashed around while surrounded by Brew-Crew fans will not be a good finish to my family vacation.
by The Double Deuce on Jun 22, 2009 3:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
We'll at those same games
My first question for you is “Why in the world would anyone take a family vacation to Milwaukee?” I am from here and have lived most of my life here, but this is not a place to take family vacations, unless you have little kids and take them to Wisconsin Dells or something.
There will be a few scattered Giants fans around. it will be bad win or lose. Brewer fans will be all liquored up, and with the teams new found success a lot of idiots have jumped on the bandwagon.
by backtocali on Jun 22, 2009 3:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
My first question for you is “Why in the world would anyone live in Milwaukee?”
The Basil Fawlty Moderating Strategy:
"We could run a nice blog here if we didn't have all these members getting in the way."
Kevin Frandsen, come back!
by WalrusMan on Jun 23, 2009 1:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
SHOULDA SIGNED CC
Justin Miller: More ink'd than an octopus on PCP.
by stealth snail on Jun 22, 2009 1:30 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
he would have been an epic #5
Dodgers fans eat their young.
by redhornet78 on Jun 22, 2009 1:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
but if cain wins cy young this year and we signed CC
we would have a rotation of 5 cy youngs
by jctGamer on Jun 22, 2009 1:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
NO!
The Cy Young Award has been renamed the Saitchel Paige Award! (According to Yahoo! sports)
Minor White > Ansel Adams
by say hey nation on Jun 22, 2009 1:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
well, some dumbass thinks it should be renamed that anyway…
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Jun 22, 2009 1:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I thought the Cy Young Award was renamed the Tim Lincecum Award last year.
Sir Alex Omar Hinshaw: It's not right if it's not left.
by The Enchanter on Jun 22, 2009 6:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
We could just sign Pedro…
Justin Miller: More ink'd than an octopus on PCP.
by stealth snail on Jun 22, 2009 1:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Gomez?
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Jun 22, 2009 1:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The key thing is
Even with Sanchez doing this poorly, we are still right in the thick of things regarding the Wild Card. So he should stay up, he should not be sent down, at least not yet.
It is not like there are any obvious choices, for one. Plus we would end up with someone extraneous in the bullpen or burn an option to AAA. I would rather give him this year then throw him to AAA for all of 2010 to figure out whatever he needs to figure out. But if we start falling back of the pack for the Wild Card, I would re-think taking him out of the rotation.
I would have skipped his start against the A’s. Even though their poorer offense would be good for him to face, they have added back some key hitters lately. More importantly, skipping him would have made it Lincecum, Johnson, Cain facing the A’s, which would give us a huge chance of at last winning the series and hopefully sweeping them again. I want to crush them whenever we can.
Also, he seems to be lost on the mound. According to that article on sfgiants.com, Johnson has been giving him a lot of good advice. But when you are trying to absorb all those lessons, you end up doing maybe one thing well, while everything else sucks. When Cain and Lincecum got one start rests, they came back stronger than ever mentally. I don’t know if that would work for Sanchez, who has been a bit of a headcase, but it couldn’t hurt. Give him a short break, plus he’ll have another one during the AS break. Reassess after the ASG and see how things ago. We can do any of the above suggestions if he continues to suck like this. Given that he pitched well last for half a season last year, he should be able to find the key to doing that again, we should give him more time to figure this out.
Adoptive parental unit of Ehire Adrianza.
Godfather of Travis Ishikawa.
"I'm really proud to be on this team." - Nate Schierholtz
"Woo hoo" - Tim "The Kid" Lincecum
"Let's go get them in 2009!" - The Kid
"He got his pitch; he did not miss it" - Cainer
"Kung Fu Panda don't get hurt" - Cainer
by obsessivegiantscompulsive on Jun 22, 2009 1:38 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Even with Sanchez doing this poorly, we are still right in the thick of things regarding the Wild Card. So he should stay up, he should not be sent down, at least not yet. . . . But if we start falling back of the pack for the Wild Card, I would re-think taking him out of the rotation.
Is it me, or does this make the opposite of sense?
by Evan on Jun 22, 2009 1:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah…. If we are out of it I have no problem letting him work it out up here. But, if we are in a pennant chase, I want to feel like I have a chance of winning every game and right now I have zero confidence on nights that Sanchez starts
by OTTOMATIC on Jun 22, 2009 1:51 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah, that is the only part I read
Minor White > Ansel Adams
by say hey nation on Jun 22, 2009 1:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
i agree
if you’re out of contention, you can punt games to develop players. If you’re leading the wild card, that’s a luxury you can’t afford.
What’s been driving me batty is people here saying that we’re essentially out of contention while we’re leading the damn WC race. It’s not like it’s April, we’re almost halfway through the season. No matter what your pre-season predictions were (79 winz!!!) or how many games we “should” have won, we are contenders right now, and should act like it.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
by Viliphied on Jun 22, 2009 1:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
“We are contenders right now, and should act like it.”
After all, this mindset has certainly served the team well over the last few years, right?
Barry Zito: Mike Hampton with a guitar
by JakeS on Jun 22, 2009 1:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, but you can’t use the stupid decisions of the past as an excuse to just give up.
by Evan on Jun 22, 2009 1:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
this
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
by Viliphied on Jun 22, 2009 1:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think the difference is that the last few years, we’ve been 6 games under .500 and 8 games out of the Wild Card and thinking we’re contenders.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on Jun 22, 2009 2:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah
before, a significant improvement would have to have been made to put us in position to seriously contend for the WC. Now, relatively minor tweaks (downs instead of burriss, for instance) can have a much larger effect.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
by Viliphied on Jun 22, 2009 2:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m just saying, I wouldn’t put the Giants chances at the playoffs this season at much higher than 25% and I don’t want to see Sabean make another win-now trade with the idea that we’re playoff favorites just one little push away like he always does.
Barry Zito: Mike Hampton with a guitar
by JakeS on Jun 22, 2009 2:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He seems to kind of understand though that one “big” trade isn’t going to improve the offense enough to make a huge difference (I believe he’s been quoted as saying that the team probably needs three good bats to have a good offense, not just one), so that’s kind of reassuring.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on Jun 22, 2009 2:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
We’ll see. I’ll be a lot less nervous on August 1st, regardless of the Giants position in the standings.
Barry Zito: Mike Hampton with a guitar
by JakeS on Jun 22, 2009 2:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Let me just say the words that we’re all thinking: Shea Hillenbrand.
Randy Winn is going to catch that. And he'll do it real classy-like too.
by oldjacket on Jun 22, 2009 2:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yep. I can’t believe it either, but when you’re six games over .500 and in line for a playoff spot, you’re a contender, like it or not.
by Evan on Jun 22, 2009 1:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
pretty weird, eh?
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Jun 22, 2009 1:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Emotionally, I just can’t make this sink in.
Randy Winn is going to catch that. And he'll do it real classy-like too.
by oldjacket on Jun 22, 2009 2:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And you may ask yourself, how did I get here?
El Presidente Larry Baer's epitaph
"Nothing important ever happened without me."
by ResDog on Jun 22, 2009 2:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
theme song for the season!
Randy Winn is going to catch that. And he'll do it real classy-like too.
by oldjacket on Jun 22, 2009 2:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And you may say to yourself – this is not my beautiful bullpen!
Meet my new son: Sundrendy Windster, coming soon to a minor league near you.
by EliminateMe on Jun 22, 2009 4:51 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Letting the days go by
Letting the offense hold us down
GROUGTHINK ALERT
Chatterbalks dot com: Still with jokes. Now with updates.
by groug on Jun 22, 2009 5:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
imagine how good the team would be in if the manager wasn’t a complete idiot.
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Jun 22, 2009 2:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not as much better as they’d be if they’d gone with Frandsen or Downs instead of Burriss from the outset
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
by Viliphied on Jun 22, 2009 2:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’ve read this 5 times and I still have no idea what you mean
by jctGamer on Jun 22, 2009 2:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The team would have more wins if they’d started the season with downs or frandsen at 2nd instead of burris than they would if they had notbochy managing.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
by Viliphied on Jun 22, 2009 2:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
ok now i understand. Thanks. I agree with you, but the impact is probably 1 win or so.
by jctGamer on Jun 22, 2009 3:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s Tim McCarver!
The Basil Fawlty Moderating Strategy:
"We could run a nice blog here if we didn't have all these members getting in the way."
Kevin Frandsen, come back!
by WalrusMan on Jun 23, 2009 1:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Jesus now I can't stop thinking about signing Pedro Martinez
I don’t know the logistics/statistics/astrophysics of such a deal. I don’t know how many rolls of duct tape it took to put his calf/shoulder back together or how many millions he would cost for half a season. But something about a rotation of Lincecum/Unit/Cain/Zito/Pedro sets my head a spinnin’.
Justin Miller: More ink'd than an octopus on PCP.
by stealth snail on Jun 22, 2009 2:05 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
ALL CY YOUNGS, ALL THE TIME!
Get on it Giants Marketing Brass!
by SoFa King Mike on Jun 22, 2009 3:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Then we trade Cain for Fielder and pick up Tom Glavine!
by Bay Area Sports Guy on Jun 22, 2009 5:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Let Marichal treat Pedro to the next rooster fight
by SoFa King Mike on Jun 22, 2009 3:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Giants have jerked Jonathan Sanchez around way too much. I’m not sure if there is really any definitive evidence as to what the Sanchez treatment would do to the typical prospect’s development, but one would think that it wouldn’t be good. Last year was the first time in three seasons that the Giants treated him as we should have been treated.
Correlation and causation and all that, but how many of us think that it was a coincidence that Sanchez wore down at the end of last year? And now, we are discussing the possibility of jerking him around some more.
Obviously, starting in the minors won’t be as bad as how he was treated prior to last year. However, part of the “jerking” was sending back and forth between Fresno and SF. I think we all agree that Sanchez’s pysche isn’t the most stable.
This means that I can’t see the good in dropping him from the rotation; at least, not without a viable upgrade.
He needs stability. Hopefully he’ll be able to work through his issues. I think that keeping him where he is gives him the best chance of doing so.
"Catcher are base running. Hitters are offense."
Only [hella] games left until the end of Zito's [no, make that Rowand's] contract.
Adoptive father of "Poncho" Villalona: This Angel don't fly. Nothing about him is light.
by thehavenot on Jun 22, 2009 2:25 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
"After the jump"
Grant, I hope you’re not going to pick up the “jump page” habit. I’d much rather see all the post content on the home page.
In fact, I’m not even sure what the argument for jump pages is. Maybe to measure click interest, maybe to have more shiny objects available for those who page down a few and then move on.
"[Greg] Vaughn is in a funk so deep, George Clinton wearing a miner's helmet couldn't find him."
- Jim Baker, ESPN.com, May 2002
by achiappanza on Jun 22, 2009 2:32 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
not to speak for Grant
but it allows for more stories on the front page.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
by Viliphied on Jun 22, 2009 2:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
and more ads blocked.
co-dad of IshikaBOOM w/AfDC.
Ishikawa, let the boy hit against lefties.
by kennv on Jun 22, 2009 3:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think it’s actually the same number of stories, it’ll just be much longer if you don’t have the jump part.
Proud father of Juan Carlos Perez. Think Albert Pujols at second.
by marcello on Jun 22, 2009 2:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Obviously...
….Sanchez needs a montage. Who is in charge of montages over at the Giants, anyway? It worked great for Zito!
Seriously — if the Giants weren’t contending for the playoffs, I’d have no problem leaving him out there to sort things out. Since we are contending, I’d like to see him moved to the bullpen to chill out and rebuild that confidence. He just may be a born reliever, and there’s nothing wrong with being an effective lefty out of the pen. I don’t have a strong preference who to plug in his place, though.
No, really, I have updated my blog this year: http://skaldheim.livejournal.com/tag/baseball
by Skaldheim on Jun 22, 2009 2:50 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Every other clip in the montage would be a walk or a visit from Boch
I’m with you on relegating him to the pen, though. I don’t know that he’ll ever learn how to complete 6 innings, which granted may not be a requisite now with how strong we are 1-4 (the bullpen does need to see some action, I guess).
"... a nice Dodger blue. Yes, it's a meth lab."
by zheetos on Jun 22, 2009 2:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Let him surf?
El Presidente Larry Baer's epitaph
"Nothing important ever happened without me."
by ResDog on Jun 22, 2009 2:55 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
El Guapo don't surf
But I think he should
by Lars The Wanderer on Jun 22, 2009 3:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Uh, Sosa
You left Henry Sosa out of your discussion. But I also think that’s pre-mature. Sanchez’ problem is that he gets in trouble, loses concentration, loses his release point, starts walking people, and gives up a big inning. That seems fixable. Give him a few more starts, meanwhile see what Sosa can do at AAA. Then him or Pucetas.
by Giantsfan4life on Jun 22, 2009 3:49 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Yes, Sosa should be in the discussion
If Sanchez is replaced in the rotation, Sosa is the most logical person since he’s already on the 40-man roster and Pucetas isn’t. Remember, the roster is full right now, and a spot will have to be cleared when Martinez comes off the 60 day DL. This is one reason why Alderson or Bumgarner will not be called up at any point this season. That, and THEY ARE STILL TEENAGERS!!! and there is no logical reason to rush either of them.
by crazedcrustacean on Jun 22, 2009 5:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If we are worried about Sanchez's ability to go more than 5 innings
then I’m not sure that Sosa is the person we want to turn to.
"Catcher are base running. Hitters are offense."
Only [hella] games left until the end of Zito's [no, make that Rowand's] contract.
Adoptive father of "Poncho" Villalona: This Angel don't fly. Nothing about him is light.
by thehavenot on Jun 22, 2009 6:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I BLAME THE WBC
Someone had to say it.
GROUGTHINK ALERT
Chatterbalks dot com: Still with jokes. Now with updates.
by groug on Jun 22, 2009 3:52 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
After the Dice-K implosion this season, the WBC is in trouble when it comes to borrowing starters from MLB teams. Even if his injury and the WBC are in no way related.
Of course, if Sanchez stuck around the entire spring it would have just meant he spent more time with Rags. I’m not sure that would have really benefited anyone all that much.
by Bay Area Sports Guy on Jun 22, 2009 4:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And don't forget ...
Oliver Perez. Another vicitm of the WBC.
by StickRat on Jun 22, 2009 5:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not just bad pitchers...
Peavy also pitched in the WBC
by BleedBlackNOrange on Jun 22, 2009 5:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, he basically didn’t pitch in game situations for two weeks (he had, what, two appearances for PR?).
Joe Martinez: My fingers are crossed and my palms are together for you.
When it's all said and done, America will be remembered for three things: The Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
by cornball on Jun 22, 2009 4:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
for all Sanchez's manifold flaws this season..
..he is still a half-win above replacement. We forget that for all this team is the worst-hitting monstrosity in baseball, it can flat-out pitch. Sanchez as 5th starter is a problem most of the rest of the league would like to have.
Man, he’s hard to watch, though.
by wcw on Jun 22, 2009 3:56 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Tonight is the night that Sanchez proves the haters wrong!
Also, Juan Uribe will show Zetsuboushita the error of his ways.
by xanthan on Jun 22, 2009 3:57 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Also, facing the A’s and their horrible offense should help things.
by xanthan on Jun 22, 2009 3:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
XANTHAN IZ HELLA RONG
Still in despair.
BRING BACK MARMOL!
konakona:「つかさに教われと...なんか非常に負けたような気がする。」
Shun Kakazu: MOAR JAPANESE PROSPECTS PLZ
by Zetsuboushita on Jun 22, 2009 4:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
cruising through youtube watching clips
OOF Angel & Panda together someday…
Now look at me. I'm wet nurse to a last-place, dead-to-the-neck-up ball club, and I'm choking to death!
by zodiac_chiller on Jun 22, 2009 4:25 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Utilizing the wild pitch to his benefit…
Anvil is a Giant already!
by Bay Area Sports Guy on Jun 22, 2009 4:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
today's lineup?
CF Rowand
DH Lewis
3B Sandoval
C Molina
LF Winn
1B Schierholtz
SS Uribe
2B Downs
The hell?
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
by Viliphied on Jun 22, 2009 4:27 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
SCHIERHOLTZ AT FIRST BASE
AND THE MCCOVEN GOES CRAZY??
by jctGamer on Jun 22, 2009 4:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Groug says, “WRONG CORNER OF THE INFIELD!”
"Are we bad? No. But right now, we are." Boulderskull, 4.16.09
by Kitspool on Jun 22, 2009 4:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
HE SHOULD BE CATCHING
GROUGTHINK ALERT
Chatterbalks dot com: Still with jokes. Now with updates.
by groug on Jun 22, 2009 4:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Who’s playing RF?
Judgment Day is coming
comics | art | Nattowear
by Natto on Jun 22, 2009 4:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Noah Lowry?
"Are we bad? No. But right now, we are." Boulderskull, 4.16.09
by Kitspool on Jun 22, 2009 4:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s supposed to be Schierholtz in RF and Ishikawa at IB.
Judgment Day is coming
comics | art | Nattowear
by Natto on Jun 22, 2009 4:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
6 years later, the Giants finally put this plan in action
by jctGamer on Jun 22, 2009 4:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's much less funny
GROUGTHINK ALERT
Chatterbalks dot com: Still with jokes. Now with updates.
by groug on Jun 22, 2009 4:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fuck it
We’ll bet em with 8
The artist formerly known as Set-up man
by CB30 on Jun 22, 2009 4:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
lol wut
GROUGTHINK ALERT
Chatterbalks dot com: Still with jokes. Now with updates.
by groug on Jun 22, 2009 4:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No right fielder, eh? An intriguing experiment.
Meet my new son: Sundrendy Windster, coming soon to a minor league near you.
by EliminateMe on Jun 22, 2009 4:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Slightly Off Topic Here : 5th Starter Next Year
Am I the only one tha thtinks if he keeps pitching like this, we sign Randy Johnson for another year?
by jctGamer on Jun 22, 2009 4:28 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I say he’s done after this year
The artist formerly known as Set-up man
by CB30 on Jun 22, 2009 4:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Might it depend on what kind of physical shape he ends the season in…and … how far away he is from that strikeout milestone?
by Merope on Jun 22, 2009 4:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Only 142 left til 5000!
Judgment Day is coming
comics | art | Nattowear
by Natto on Jun 22, 2009 4:51 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah that one, I’m supposedly working on a term paper that’s due tonight and didn’t want to take the time to look that up.
by Merope on Jun 22, 2009 4:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Do you think Randy Johnson would turn down another $5-$8 million unless his back exploded, and do you think the Giants would turn their backs on him if he makes 30 starts and keeps pitching like this? They still haven’t gotten rid of Richie, for chrissakes.
by Bay Area Sports Guy on Jun 22, 2009 5:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think he’s said he wants to go to Seattle.
Bruce Bochy would like you to look at the career numbers and stop complaining.
by cheno on Jun 22, 2009 7:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I say we bring back the not yet retired Shawn Estes!
by baybruin415 on Jun 22, 2009 5:04 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Property of the Dodgers. And I’m telling you, they are saving him for downt he stretch.
by StickRat on Jun 22, 2009 5:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
as a pinch runner
Randy Winn is going to catch that. And he'll do it real classy-like too.
by oldjacket on Jun 22, 2009 5:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dirty is 5th starter, not 3rd; can't yet say he's who he's gonna be yet; our RA is best in majors thus pitching isn't our problem, etc.
Higher priorities than acting on the Sanchez “problem”:
1. Getting a league-average 2b
2. Give Molina the 5 days off to rest and reset (as the Red Sox did with David Ortiz earlier)
3. Getting all our non-pitcher guys with fewer than 2 years of ML service some individualized, intensive coaching about their hitting, with 1-on-1 tutoring from someone who can teach, with video tech traveling with them. (Offer not valid if name is Pablo Sandoval. But everyone else: get to school/therapy.) We don’t have to accept that these young guys who grew up in the age of ‘Moneyball’ are cast in concrete as Slop Hackas 4 Life.
4. A car and driver for regular inhabitants of View Box 311 to and from games.
Forsan et haec olim meminisse iuvabit... Maybe.
by Mayor of 311 on Jun 22, 2009 5:16 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
problem #1
FRED LEWIS
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on Jun 22, 2009 6:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would add that Downs/ Frandsen/ Burriss should fall into the coaching in 3. until a league average 2B could be acquired.
Brand new adoptive daddy for the Big Unit. Congrats go out to my son for his 300th win. Only 211 more wins until he catches Cy Young!
by Speedforthewin on Jun 22, 2009 6:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
What to do with Sanchez ...
Put a dollar bill on the ground to make sure he follows through.
by StickRat on Jun 22, 2009 5:19 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Sanchez
I think that everyone is worried about Sanchez, Sanchez, o Sanchez sucio, because sometimes he gives us awesome hope that he can be a really good starting pitcher, but he can’t make that next step from walking a guy an inning to Cain badassedness (Cain hates walks). He has the potential, which is why we should do whatever it takes to make him become a better pitcher for next year and the year after, and worry much less about what he does this year, whether it’s in mlb or aaa. So if Sanchez can improve in AAA, that’s fine. If he’s better off repeating his delivery against mlber’s, let’s see it.
by Mrbasepaul on Jun 23, 2009 12:16 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
His versatility as a reliever should keep him in the big leagues. Unless the Giants get blown away by an offer for a young power bat with a contract beyond ‘09 (probably even beyond ’10) I don’t see Sanchez getting traded midseason. He could simply take on a long relief role if someone like Joe Martinez or even Henry Sosa gets a look in the Major League rotation.
by StickRat on Jun 24, 2009 12:57 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
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