ZiPS and Kevin Frandsen
I'm not quite sure if this is kosher, but there were a lot of questions about ZiPS and Kevin Frandsen in a recent thread and I was out of town and unable to give responses. Well, I could have on my cell phone, but my phone doesn't have a swanktastic fold-out or slide-out keyboard and I'd rather take a bath with a toaster than write long sentences without one.
First off, one has to take into account (I'll drop David a note) that the rest-of-season projections on Fangraphs do not take factor in the seasonal minor league performance, simply because David doesn't yet have a mechanism for minor league translations. I recently provided him something for him to turn into such, but he's had a lot to do in maintaining the website before saving me my coding work. When I do RoS projections as part of entries on BTF or Twitter, I do use minor league translations. The Fangraphs RoS projection has no way of knowing that I have Frandsen's 2009 translation at 305/344/415.
There are also a few reasons why Frandsen's 2009 projection was better than his 2008 one. First, a missing season isn't as serious for a hitter as it is a pitcher. Also, SF's expected park factor went up a bit and some less-stellar performances, moved farther into the rear-view mirror.
Here's what I get for Frandsen's performances (minor league translations plus major league statistics)
Year Overall 2004 255/290/314 2005 292/337/372 2006 274/326/375 2007 275/341/381 2008 000/000/000So there wasn't a huge shift in his projection. It would have been higher without him missing 2008 (274/332/385 rather than the 269/325/370 actually predicted).
Majors Only Translation Only Majors and Translation
2009 071/161/071 305/344/415 247/295/344
It helps to think of a projection not just as a seasonal line, but an array of probabilities. ZiPS and other projection systems simply see the midpoint as the likeliest. ZiPS knows there's a chance that Frandsen will have a .900 OPS and also a chance that he'll have a .600 OPS. If you picture a large curve loosely resembling a bell curve, imagine every bit of new data hitting the curve from one side or the other, moving that curve to the right or the left or crushing it down. (This is essentially a really simple way to think of Bayesian inference).
Without the minor league data, all ZiPS on Fangraphs sees as new data is that 2-for-28 stretch. Small sample, sure, but Frandsen's missing 2008 already increases the uncertainty to begin with, enough to make the best guess move from 269/325/370 to 258/316/353. Add that to the numbers already "in the bag" and it's not a great season line.
It's less bleak when we see have his minor league performance for 2009 included. It's a better line, but a larger sample size, so the RoS projection becomes 262/316/361.
You can't not expect the projection to drop off a bit. You take an uncertain player with a .695 projected OPS and give them a little less than half a season of a .639 OPS and you have to lower your expectations (in this case, to .677).
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Thank you very much, Dan...
for taking the time to explain the projections. Very informative.
Flossing a dead horse
Re: Frandsen
even with a ROS projection including his 2009 minor lines, Frandsen doesn’t exactly look like the answer at 2nd. 262/316/361, while not Burriss-esque, is pretty bad.
Flossing a dead horse
Who would you like at 2nd then? Burriss? Frandsen? Downs?
I think the best answer when Frandsen becomes eligible to come up is to send Downs down to play 2nd and have Burriss play SS at Fresno.
The Basil Fawlty Moderating Strategy:
"We could run a nice blog here if we didn't have all these members getting in the way."
Kevin Frandsen, come back!
I really want to trade for Mike Fontenot. He’s under 30, free, and under control for a long while. His career line is pretty much average for a 2B, and he’s also pretty good defensively. And, I think he could be had for cheap, since he’s currently underperformig because of a .271 BABIP, and the Cubs seem to be unhappy about the relative lack of power he’s shown compared to last year. The Cubs have no farm system, I wonder what it would take to get him.
Adoptive parent of Noah Lowry.
:-(
I think teams knowing the Giants offensive woes will try to start all trade talks with one of alderson, bumgarner, posey or anvil. I still think teams will continue to aim really high in trade talks. Plus, whilt the cubs aren’t happy with fontenot’s production, can we really offer them anything better at our black hole of a 2B situation? I don’t see this happening
Brand new adoptive daddy for the Big Unit. Congrats go out to my son for his 300th win. Only 211 more wins until he catches Cy Young!
by Speedforthewin on Jun 20, 2009 4:06 PM PDT up reply actions
Plus, whilt the cubs aren’t happy with fontenot’s production, can we really offer them anything better at our black hole of a 2B situation?
Well, if we had a better 2B than Fontenot, we wouldn’t need to trade for him. I was thinking prospects for Fontenot, but I guess the Cubs are contending, so that won’t happen. This is a pretty big problem – there are only 5-6 teams in the majors that are truly out of the playoff race, and two of them are in our division, so making trades is going to be hard.
Adoptive parent of Noah Lowry.
:-(
exactly. Derosa is the only 2B with ML experience who is presumably on the block, and that is a problem.
Brand new adoptive daddy for the Big Unit. Congrats go out to my son for his 300th win. Only 211 more wins until he catches Cy Young!
by Speedforthewin on Jun 20, 2009 4:51 PM PDT up reply actions
Considering the Cubs have 344 OBP, 380 SLG, 325 wOBA on a rate to post a -18.5 UZR/150 in right field for $5MM this season, $9MM 2010 and a team option for 2011. There could be room to talk. But there ownership situation is still up in the air so I don’t think they make any big moves and any move(s) would probably have to be almost be payroll neutral ( like an NBA trade) tell the new owners eventually take over.
Yes, This is still a 79 win squad.
Where is my beer & chili dog?
by daveinexile on Jun 21, 2009 12:24 PM PDT up reply actions
I would love to see that trade. It’s tougher with Aramis Ramirez hurt, because the Cubs just don’t have much in the farm system, but they have seemed more willing to start Jake Fox at third lately.
There are some other problems though, as that leaves the Cubs with Aaron Miles and/or Ryan Freel for 2B. Miles is terrible and Freel is injury-prone, already having gone on the DL this year. It also breaks up the Cajun Connection – LSU buddies Theriot and Fontenot – which may or may not matter.
by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on Jun 21, 2009 2:36 PM PDT up reply actions
Oh, and the Cubs are only 2 1/2 games back in the Central.
by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on Jun 21, 2009 2:40 PM PDT up reply actions
What are we expecting from 2B, realistically? I want a average to good defensive 2B that isn’t a black hole offensively and could improve next season. Frandsen fits that bill. We don’t want the FO to lose its mind and go “OMG WE NEED MOAR BATZ” and make a bad deal. Pick a 2B and let him develop for the rest of the season. 2B, like 1B is a long term project fix, not a short term one. Your choices are seemingly downs or frandsen, I choose frandsen, but would like both on the team.
Brand new adoptive daddy for the Big Unit. Congrats go out to my son for his 300th win. Only 211 more wins until he catches Cy Young!
by Speedforthewin on Jun 20, 2009 4:09 PM PDT up reply actions
the mccovey chronicles...
fan base HUGELY overvalues Giants prospects. It’s time to make a trade using some of our chits. Frandsen is just not that good a player.
Flossing a dead horse
we overvalue prospects, true. But what trade are you going to make that we won’t get shafted at? I’d rather have frandsen than decimate the farm system for a ML average 2B
Brand new adoptive daddy for the Big Unit. Congrats go out to my son for his 300th win. Only 211 more wins until he catches Cy Young!
by Speedforthewin on Jun 20, 2009 4:55 PM PDT up reply actions
rosterbating is a bad habit.
If you preface the discussion with “a decent 2nd baseman will cost Madison, Alderson, or Posey” than of course a trade is stupid. But that’s a strawman argument as neither you nor I have any idea what the trade market is like.
Flossing a dead horse
PS:
I am tired of repeating the math but if you say the Giants shouldn’t try and trade for a decent (not even particularly good) 2nd baseman than basically you are saying the Giants should only trade scrubs for superstars. The Giants are 1 game back in the wild card. Adding a 2nd basemen who doesn’t suck (which probably excludes every 2nd baseman in the Giants org.) is the equivalent of adding a superstar.
Flossing a dead horse
The reason I say don’t go for it is because of who is available. an above average to great 2B is not generally available, and especially this year when 20-25 teams still think they are in it. I say use specifics because I’m curious as to who you think the Giants could get who hasn’t been talked about. I, as a fan, don’t want dan uggla or any of the rent a players out there, and If I am going to gut the farm system, I want a good reason to, not “he’s better than burriss or frandsen”
Brand new adoptive daddy for the Big Unit. Congrats go out to my son for his 300th win. Only 211 more wins until he catches Cy Young!
by Speedforthewin on Jun 20, 2009 5:25 PM PDT up reply actions
The point is you don't necessarily have to gut the farm to get a better than burriss 2b
Like say, The brewers did for Durham last year.
by FairweatherFan on Jun 20, 2009 5:26 PM PDT up reply actions
even with a ROS projection including his 2009 minor lines, Frandsen doesn’t exactly look like the answer
did we really need a ZiPS projection to tell us that?
by FluLikeSymptoms on Jun 23, 2009 6:00 PM PDT up reply actions
Serious Question:
Has there been anything other than the very limited experience that Frandsen has had in the majors, that people here have seen from him that indicates that he shouldn’t get the chance to start at 2B full time without someone breathing down his neck? We have seen the reasons why Burriss should not be here now and he was given the chance to start full-time with no threat from somebody off the bench. In fact, at one point, Burriss had played more games than any other Giant up to that point. Frandsen has been thrown all over the field, not started much, and played well in the minors. It is sort of now or never for the guy. I believe he needs to start at 2B every day the rest of the year to see what the Giants have.
by Uribe nee Gonzalez on Jun 20, 2009 2:01 PM PDT reply actions
I would be cool with that.
I would also be cool with ride Downs for few weeks, install Frandsen in Aurilia’s 25 spot and let him be back up 3rd, 2nd & some SS time as well.
Sorry Richie but if this (front office in action) keeps on you are a prime canidate to be Ol’ Yellow’ed.
Yes, This is still a 79 win squad.
Where is my beer & chili dog?
It's a myth...
that minor league production is not predictive of performance in the majors. His looks like a below average major league player given his minor league trajectory
Flossing a dead horse
Who? Frandsen?
Shirley, you jest.
Sergio Romo: striking out professional hitters since 2005. And winner of the 2012 NL Fireman of the Year Award!
he had a chance for a week and failed
i rather take Burriss than Frandsen playing everyday. Why is everybody hating on Burriss when Frandsen hasen’t done a damn thing to prove himself
Burriss .250 avg. 30 stolen bases(when he gets on base) and better defense that Frandsen .22 yrs old
Frandsen .265 avg .a lil speed .moderate defense .27 yrs old
by Mannybeatsfranny on Jun 20, 2009 3:41 PM PDT up reply actions
I'm sensing sarchasm..
(I hope I’m right)
Brandon Crawford: Your SF Giants 2011 Opening Day starting SS!
Oh yes 1 week is a great sample size to reduce playing time on.
/ Looks at Rip Van Rowand who was “alseep” for every day in CF for almost a full calender year.
Yes, 1 week is obviously all you need to lose play time…..
Yes, This is still a 79 win squad.
Where is my beer & chili dog?
by daveinexile on Jun 21, 2009 12:28 PM PDT up reply actions
During his last week in the majors, Burriss had zero hits.
ADVANTAGE FRANDSEN
GROUGTHINK ALERT
Chatterbalks dot com: Still with jokes. Now with updates.
Is that Manny Burriss or one of his relatives?
by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on Jun 21, 2009 2:37 PM PDT up reply actions
30 stolen bases when he gets on base? Let’s see… if he gets on base 100 times, then that means…
MY GOD…
3,000 stolen bases?! That must be pretty close to the record!
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Jun 21, 2009 11:32 PM PDT up reply actions
Also, Burriss is two months older than me. And I’m 24.
Though if he was .22 years old, that would be fantastic. By the time he turned one, he’d be absolutely amazing.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Jun 21, 2009 11:34 PM PDT up reply actions
I, too, hate writing long sentences without a toaster.
My son is Madison Bumgarner, the Spacebat of pitching prospects. My other son is a Porsche.
Frandsen 27 OK, but Burriss is 24.
3 years difference.
Aha. Thanks for the explanation, Dan.
This isn’t a ZiPS question exactly, but what causes the big differences in translation systems? You have Frandsen at 305/344/415; Minor League splits has him at 286/323/404; Prospectus says 296/338/463. How can park/league adjustments vary by that much?
Without knowing exactly how each were developed, I can only give educated guesses as to differences. While I know Davenport from usenet in the 90s and Smith from BTF and around, I don’t have all the ins and outs.
I get the impression that Smith is a bit on the harsh side. I can get pretty close to minor league splits MLEs if I consider full regression as part of the mix. For example, let’s say we’re looking at a player’s AAA numbers and MLB numbers in consecutive years and the guy hit 350/600 the first year and 300/450 the second year. One has to remember, however, that part of the loss of 200 points of OPS is simple regression to the mean and not having anything to do with the differences in league strength. So I wrote a model for year-to-year and in-season regression of statistics and leave most of the work to a projection system, not a translation.
On BP’s side, I suspect that they haven’t changed the formula too much. This is risky and it puts BP’s translations as the highest. Translation factors, especially AAA to the majors, have gotten stronger since the mid 90s. What appears to be happening is that teams are far more willing to give serious chances to players that would be Ken Phelps All-Stars in previous generations and for the ones that aren’t getting chances (like Greg LaRocca) have Japan as a more serious alternative than they did in the old days. Roberto Petagine, for instance, would likely have had a career in MLB if he had been born 10 or 15 years later.
--
Dan Szymborski
dan@baseballprimer.com
by D.Szymborski on Jun 20, 2009 6:59 PM PDT up reply actions
I have a suspicion that whoever is in charge of BP’s translations inflates them so people will like them more, and use them more often.
Adoptive parent of Noah Lowry.
:-(
Bill James's are even higher.
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
-------
PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game currently in early planning stages.
Dan is cool
’Nuff said
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
If Dustin Pedroia played in Seattle, not many people would be talking about him.
GET THAT VORP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!
Dan is the man!!!!!
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by i love sports101 on Jun 21, 2009 1:39 PM PDT reply actions
Thanks Dan
Great to see you here.
by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on Jun 21, 2009 2:41 PM PDT reply actions
People always miss the main point
Burriss has done nothing as a profession to suggest that he would be any good in the majors as hitter other than he does not strike out that much. He has hit poorly (as measured by OPS) at every level he has been at, and he’s never been that young for the league he was hitting in, except for the majors.
Frandsen has hit at every minor league level he has been at except for AA, and we all know what Dodd does to any hitter’s power. He also was never too young for a league, but at least he has hit almost everywhere he has gone. Not only has he hit well, but when the criticism was that he didn’t walk enough, he upped his game to take more walks. And while it is noted that Burriss is good defensively, everyone failed to note that the Giants think that Frandsen has been doing very well defensively at SS, something that was not said about Burriss, that was always the big question on him, whether he can field SS regularly.
Hitting, power, fielding, success hitting at every level, Frandsen has done all that he could to earn a promotion and get the opportunity to start.
Hopefully this will all be moot soon. Aurilia will be taking a long bereavement leave soon for his father’s funeral (that probably weighed on his all much of this season and contributed to his poor hitting early one; he’s been over .800 OPS since mid-May) and thus Frandsen would make the most sense to call up at that point. Then, unless Downs is hitting the cover off the ball, he becomes the utility guy and Frandsen gets to start and see what he can do, and hopefully the Giants will just give him the starting job at that point and send Downs back to AAA..
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Godfather of Travis Ishikawa.
"I'm really proud to be on this team." - Nate Schierholtz
"Woo hoo" - Tim "The Kid" Lincecum
"Let's go get them in 2009!" - The Kid
"He got his pitch; he did not miss it" - Cainer
"Kung Fu Panda don't get hurt" - Cainer
by obsessivegiantscompulsive on Jun 22, 2009 2:07 PM PDT reply actions
SEE
Xanthan isn’t the only computer that hates the Giants!
(Hi Dan!)
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
-------
PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game currently in early planning stages.
thank god this story has been uncovered, finally

Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."
There's 3 ways to do something: the right way, the wrong way, and the Max Power/ Ginats Way...
by natteringnabob on Jun 22, 2009 10:04 PM PDT reply actions

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