Trade Idea
by sharksrog on Jun 14, 2009 7:39 PM PDT
110 comments
I suspect this idea will get shot down from a LOT of directions, but here it is:
How about Matt Cain and Edgar Renteria for Dustin 'Pedroia?
The Giants get the reigning AL MVP, and a guy who won it at age 24, at that. They greatly improve their middle infield, save a lot of salary and have control of Pedroia through 2015, whereas Cain can leave after 2011. They open up a spot for Madison Bumgarner -- or they don't think he's ready, Joey Martinez or Kevin Pucetas.
The Red Sox get a fabulous starter to replace the injured and seemingly not recovering Diasuke Matsuzaka, they get to move their shortstop Nick Green back to the second base position he is more familiar with, and they get an experienced shortstop in Renteria.
Would the Red Sox make the deal? Would the Giants? Should they? I'm leaving myself really exposed on this one. Have at it!
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Pedroia is fantastic, but does he strike anyone else as a guy who might age poorly? Also, has anyone noticed that his power has evaporated this year? .095 ISO vs. a career ISO of .138.
by xanthan on Jun 14, 2009 7:44 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Also, it would be pretty hilarious to see Renteria co back to Boston.
by xanthan on Jun 14, 2009 7:44 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was thinking that, too. Plus there’s the whole issue of the gigantic pitching surplus the Red Sox have built up (including John Smoltz and Clay Bucholz in the minors) which they’re most likely to try to use to fill the yawning gap in their lineup left by the decaying corpse of David Ortiz’ bat.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
by Roger on Jun 14, 2009 7:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
There are reasons for this.
#1. He is the AL MVP. Pitchers are approaching him differently, and he feels the pressure to hit dingerz.
#2. David Ortiz is a corpse. He has had little to no lineup protection when Ortiz has been in the #3 hole behind him. Last year he had Ortiz and then Manny, so he had a lot of hittable pitches thrown his way. If you’ll notice he’s been doing better in the leadoff spot, with Drew-Youkilis-Bay behind him.
Although he’d make the Giants a much better team, Boston will NEVER do this trade.
These are my principles. If you don't like them, I have others. -Groucho Marx
by RDreamer on Jun 14, 2009 8:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Red Sox have about 10,000 starting pitchers, and I don’t think they’re all terrible. Replacing Matsuzaka probably isn’t a huge concern for them.
No, really, I have updated my blog this year: http://skaldheim.livejournal.com/tag/baseball
by Skaldheim on Jun 14, 2009 7:49 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
To be honest, I don’t really see how this helps us. I might consider it if Cain was in his walk year, but he isn’t. I think we could plug Frandsen into the 2B slot and be okay.
The real problem on this team is lack of power from the corner infield and OF spots. Pedroia has good power for a 2B, but not enough to compensate for our lack of power in other areas. I’d rather try to pry Brandon Wood from the Angels. That, and see what Bowker can do up here.
by Squire_Boone on Jun 14, 2009 7:53 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I totally agree.
Sergio Romo: striking out professional hitters since 2005. And winner of the 2012 NL Fireman of the Year Award!
by Lyle on Jun 15, 2009 3:48 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Saw Wood and Kendrick play yesterday in Reno. Wood can swing the bat, but the man has some serious holes in his swing. Not one of the Reno Aces pitchers threw him a fastball in the strike zone except Spottiswod and he smoked it for a double. And that pitch came in the 7th when the Aces had an eleven run lead. He was on a steady diet of sliders and off speed stuff. Same thing for Kendrick.
In all three games the Bee’s (Angels) 3A bullpen has been a disaster. Some decent pitching could probaly pry him loose, but the Giants have to do something about the “log jam” of useless vets.
"One percent of ballplayers are leaders of men. The other ninety-nine percent are followers of women."-John McGraw, NY Giants Baseball Club
My adopted son Matt Downs . Ranked as the 24th best prospect in the Giants farm system by Baseball America !!
by nvsfg on Jun 15, 2009 7:39 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was at the games friday and saturday. Wood just smoked a bitch from etherton for a 2 run shot. The plus for wood would be the versitility and power, as I don’t think it’s likely he will hit for average in the majors, at least initially. I think you’re right, but would upside arms like hinshaw and valdez get it done?
Brand new adoptive daddy for the Big Unit. Congrats go out to my son for his 300th win. Only 211 more wins until he catches Cy Young!
by Speedforthewin on Jun 15, 2009 11:00 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t know, Valdez and another AAA arm might get it done. Espinelli also might have some appeal to the Angels. It all depends on how what the FO brass thinks of Wood’s value compared to Valdez + AAA arm (HInshaw or Espinelli).
by Squire_Boone on Jun 16, 2009 12:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
and you could play wood at 3B, 1B or even SS.
Brand new adoptive daddy for the Big Unit. Congrats go out to my son for his 300th win. Only 211 more wins until he catches Cy Young!
by Speedforthewin on Jun 15, 2009 11:00 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Even for a 2b
Uggla is a better fit and he wouldn’t cost us Matt Cain.
Chris Cohan- YOU'RE FIRED!
by bonbrillio on Jun 15, 2009 7:44 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You think we can get Uggla for less than Cain?
by The Double Deuce on Jun 15, 2009 1:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Absolutely. Florida won’t want to pay him until after the new stadium is built and they start to draw some fans. Sell, sell, sell will be their motto
by m34josh on Jun 15, 2009 9:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
isn’t the word that the Red Sox are currently trying to trade one of their starters?
by FluLikeSymptoms on Jun 14, 2009 8:02 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
The Red Sox had Renteria a few years ago. It went badly. They don’t want him back.
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by groug on Jun 14, 2009 8:16 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
The guy from Boston who sat next to me on Friday took special care to talk about how much he hated Edgar Renteria and everything he stands for.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on Jun 14, 2009 10:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The nickname in Boston for him was “Rente-wreck”
by SFGuy on Jun 14, 2009 11:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
there's another nickname too
but it’s definitely nsfw
Do they know to win the game a team has to actually score at least once?
by noahthek on Jun 15, 2009 12:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Taking Pedroia out of Fenway is a great way of losing 15 doubles a year off his bat
by Graham on Jun 14, 2009 8:29 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Agreed (look at the sig)
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
If Dustin Pedroia played in Seattle, not many people would be talking about him.
by baetown415 on Jun 15, 2009 12:31 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I want Hanley or Wright
Proud father of Dallas Mcpherson, the Babe Ruth of AAA.
by The Thrill on Jun 14, 2009 9:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Or Mauer
My adopted Giant: "Raptor Jesus" Guzman
by Goofus on Jun 14, 2009 9:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
A Morneau-type player
Giant Dirtbags: John Bowker, Steve Hammond. MIA List: Todd Jennings, Brian Anderson
Wronghanded Affeldt pitches right
by Giant among Angels on Jun 14, 2009 10:51 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
NOPE
RedSox will have about 7 SP on their roster that are ready to pitch in MLB (Penny, Smoltz, Beckett, Dice-K, Buckholtz, Lester, Wakefield) not including the 10+ pitching propects they have in the minors….
the last thing they need is SP, im in favor of a sanchez for rios trade
by cazzuno on Jun 14, 2009 8:43 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
No way the Red Sox do it.
Judgment Day is coming
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by Natto on Jun 14, 2009 9:05 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
The addition of one bat, no matter how good it is, CANNOT make up for the loss of value in removing Cain from the rotation. The new bat might get you an extra win and a half but you’d give up three wins or more to get it. Losing Matteh would gut any chance the Giants have of making the playoffs this year, and destroy any chance they’d have of advancing out of the first round*.
- And it’s not as farfetched as it sounds. If the starts align just right, we can limp into the Wild Card spot and start Lincecum and Cain on normal rest on the road in the divisional series and who knows, maybe sweep behind Johnson in Game 3 and reset the rotation for the LCS.
Fred Lewis can stand under my umbrella.
31 May 2007, 21:38 EST - the last time Matteh's career W-L wasn't below .500
We are at war with Los Angeles. We have always been at war with Los Angeles.
Lowering the Quality of Internet Discourse Since 1985™
by S.F. Giangst on Jun 14, 2009 9:20 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
Is Cain really the only option we have at getting a legitimate bat?
Oakland got Holliday for Street, Greg Smith, and Carlos González. With the way Wilson’s stats appear, and teams always overpaying closers, I’m curious as to what a Brian Wilson package could net us. Maybe it’s just my personal bias, but I feel like he’s at best our third reliever (behind Affeldt and Romo) and the 09 Giants, contrary to the post-Nen Giants, have capable arms at several levels to restock the loss of an all-star closer.
by SeeingStars on Jun 14, 2009 9:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Legitimate Bat
I like the idea of trading Brian Wilson, but I don’t think he would bring in return the kind of bat the Giants need.
To be honest, I’m not sure Matt Cain will either, but if the Giants could find a team that needed a top-notch pitcher and say Randy Winn or Bengie Molina (such as after an injury), they might be able to wangle say a couple of top-notch hitting prospects. It may not make sense to trade Matt for prospects, but if it is only a pitcher another team needs, I wouldn’t see them giving up a proven power hitter even for Matt.
Maybe Matt and a good prospect could bring a top-notch hitter. The A’s got Matt Holliday on the cheap, but only because he was going to become a free agent in a year.
The Giants are in something of a bind short-term, since it will be tough to sign top-notch free agent hitters (of which Holliday may be the only one this winter, assuming he doesn’t sign first, which might be the case if Oakland flips him). If they are going to trade for a top-notch hitter, it will almost have to be an unproven one — or the cost will probably be too high.
Brian Sabean believes there will be some financially distressed merchandise available at the trade deadline. I’m probably a little less confident of that than he, and even if there are some players who are available strictly for financial reasons, the Giants would likely be in a bidding contest that would still cost a heavy price in players. Financially, they are still paying a hefty priced for signing Barry Zito.
I wonder if a team were hitting-heavy if the Giants could trade BOTH Cain and Wilson and get a top-notch hitter. If not, let’s hope that Mr. Inside-the-Park and John Bowker can man the corners off the outfield next season.
Was anyone else as shocked as I that Nate Schierholtz made it all around the bases in 14.7 seconds? That’s flying. I thought he had above-average speed, but NOTHING like that.
by sharksrog on Jun 14, 2009 11:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Was anyone else as shocked as I that Nate Schierholtz made it all around the bases in 14.7 seconds? That’s flying. I thought he had above-average speed, but NOTHING like that.
I was totally shocked, and he certainly didn’t look like he was moving that fast.
Thing A
by sam23 on Jun 14, 2009 11:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was totally flabbergasted. The camera was focused on Cust getting to the ball, so watching on TV, I had no idea until the throw home that he was digging for the plate.
Hopefully his play yesterday will be enough to get him some consistent starts.
by The Double Deuce on Jun 15, 2009 1:44 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
he seemed to be coasting
more or less to first, so he might even be a touch faster.
Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."
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by natteringnabob on Jun 16, 2009 1:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m pretty sure the Giants would get some tempting offers if they were to put Cain out there. For all that he isn’t (as good as he’s pitched this year), the value of a 200+ IP, 120 ERA+ pitcher is pretty fucking high, especially one signed for two more years at a cheap price. But the thing is that trading Cain only really makes sense if it’s for a package of players, which really wouldn’t be a popular move at all.
In terms of straight value, sure there are plenty of position players out there with equal or more value than Cain, but do they represent a significant upgrade when you take into account the probable huge dropoff from Cain to Pucetas/Martinez?
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on Jun 15, 2009 12:02 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
What if you’re going to Burriss to Chase Utley?
(no, the Phillies won’t do that)
by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on Jun 15, 2009 3:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I mean, there are certainly some players that would probably provide a big enough upgrade to make it worth it, but how available are those players in a one-for-one swap?
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on Jun 15, 2009 3:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The addition of one bat, no matter how good it is, CANNOT make up for the loss of value in removing Cain from the rotation. The new bat might get you an extra win and a half but you’d give up three wins or more to get it.
Why? would we only get another win and a half? Are you really telling me you wouldn’t trade Cain for Hanley or Longoria?
Adoptive parent of Noah Lowry.
:-(
by Cookyman on Jun 15, 2009 1:32 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think the point is that you might gain 1.5 wins at, say, first base, by upgrading from Ishikawa, but you’d lose three wins in the rotation for a net of minus-1.5 wins.
Joe Martinez: My fingers are crossed and my palms are together for you.
When it's all said and done, America will be remembered for three things: The Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
by cornball on Jun 15, 2009 5:29 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
How can you know how many wins we’ll gain without knowing who we’re trading for? It seems that S.F. Giangst’s point is that our replacement starting pitchers are worse than our replacement position players, which is plain not true, at least not for 1B, 2B, and probably SS.
Adoptive parent of Noah Lowry.
:-(
by Cookyman on Jun 15, 2009 8:34 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That’s not even a likely scenario though. I would trade Zito for Pujols in a sec but we both know thats not happening.
by SeeingStars on Jun 15, 2009 11:30 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He said
“The addition of one bat, no matter how good it is, CANNOT make up for the loss of value in removing Cain from the rotation.”
Also, you’d be surprised, but there are people here who wouldn’t trade Cain for Hanley.
Adoptive parent of Noah Lowry.
:-(
by Cookyman on Jun 15, 2009 2:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ah, let’s just start saving our pennies now to sign Pujols when he hits the market in two years. Seems like the ugliness in St. Louis is just starting to kick into gear.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
by Roger on Jun 15, 2009 2:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cain's value will never be any higher
But it is impossible to explain to your fanbase why you are trading away a 9-1 pitcher with a shiny 2 something era. Moreover the replacements are not ready to step in right now.
Trading Cain is the right move, but it is an impossible move to make right now unless we are getting somebody like Hanley Ramirez in return, someone that clearly is worth more than Cain.
And because the other execs (or members on their staff) understand the concept of tRA and FIP, Matt Cain will never be traded for Hanley Ramirez and such, and the Giants will hang onto Cain.
by jctGamer on Jun 14, 2009 9:22 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Trading Cain could be the right move, but I don’t think it would be the right move if it’s just a one-for-one trade. If it’s for a Haren-like package of prospects, maybe. If it’s for one hitter, I don’t think it actually improves the team in the short term (or long-term really, trading him now with the assumption that MadBum or Alderson will be able to replace his value – FIP aside, he’s been a 200+ IP, 120~ ERA+ pitcher more or less – could be potentially disastrous.)
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on Jun 14, 2009 10:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
which is why Cain will not be traded ;p
by jctGamer on Jun 14, 2009 10:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cain’s value will never be higher… WTF? If you mean his value to the Giants, his value will be higher next year when he continues as part (along with Timmeh) of what may become the best 1-2 punch in recent memory, especially if we add another bat by free agency.
If you mean his trade value, his value will be higher next year presuming he concludes this year the way he has started it. The books are full of guys who had a stellar couple of months in the midst of otherwise undistinguished careers. If some fundamental change has occurred with Matteh that makes him ubercandy, any GM is going to want the biggest sample size possible before he buys into it and will make the deal. 20-3 is going to be a hell of a lot more attractive than 9-1.
The biggest reason not to trade Cain is somewhat intangible and has to do with the organizational philosophy. You’ve got a guy who generally pitched his guts out for two years and got nothing by way of reward except a horrible record, a meagre paycheck for his skill level and some misguided trade rumors. Now that he’s getting run support and some well-earned national recognition (and on the verge of a more appropriate paycheck), to dump him and his feature role (if not leadership role; I don’t know if he’s vocal in the clubhouse) as a persevering young veteran, you’d risk alienating a lot of players at every level of the organization. The sun may be about to start shining in San Francisco again so why kick everybody in the balls, why piss off the fans, why gut-punch the players…
Even if trading Matteh was a break-even proposition in terms of wins or even dollars-per-win (which it ABSOLUTELY IS NOT), moving him would be just teh stoopid because of the message it would send.
Fred Lewis can stand under my umbrella.
31 May 2007, 21:38 EST - the last time Matteh's career W-L wasn't below .500
We are at war with Los Angeles. We have always been at war with Los Angeles.
Lowering the Quality of Internet Discourse Since 1985™
by S.F. Giangst on Jun 14, 2009 11:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The message
Your point about the message trading Matt would send is a very good one. The one thing it would show, though, is that the Giants were very serious about winning.
As for signing a free agent bat, which bat are you thinking of? Brian Sabean is said not to be a fan of Matt Holliday, and are there really any other bats on this year’s free agent market that are likely to be what the Giants need? In addition, AT&T is far from a power-hitter’s paradise, making it all the more diffficult to sign a top bat.
In order to have big bats, I think the Giants will either need to develop them and/or develop other commodities that can be traded for them. Since Jeff Kent left, have the Giants really had any impact batters aside from Barry Bonds?
I have high hopes for Rafael Ramirez and also Wagner Mateo if the Giants are successful in signing the power-hitting center fielder when the Dominican signing period begins July 2nd. Thomas Neal is impressing me more and more. Because of his poor K/BB ratio, I’m probably not as high on Roger Kieschnick as others.
Angel Villalona is the Giants’ top power hope, but he’s likely at least two years away. I think Buster Posey can be a 25-homer guy and that he will be the starting catcher next season.
Conor Gillaspie has no power, and Nick Noonan seems to have lost the ability to hit. Maybe Jesus Guzman will be able to help out, although it didn’t appear that way in his brief trial a month or so ago.
Bowker looks like the guy who is most likely to help soon, but he isn’t a heavy power hitter, either. Schierholtz has still hit only one ball out as a Giant. Fred Lewis is struggling and isn’t likely to become a power hitter anyway.
I guess maybe the Giants could build such a pitching staff that they don’t need many runs. But usually the best teams have some type of balance. In reality, the Giants are likely going to have to put together an expensive package or flat-out get lucky if they want to obtain a big bopper.
Meanwhile, their offense if more like Chantilly Lace.
by sharksrog on Jun 14, 2009 11:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Where has it been said that Sabean isn’t a fan of Holliday?
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on Jun 14, 2009 11:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
dunno but
“walks to much” would be my guess.
I don’t think Sabes was a BB fan, but I think the B.B. years made him ill.
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
-------
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by zenbitz on Jun 15, 2009 9:48 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Extra Baggs?
I think it may have been Extra Baggs.
by sharksrog on Jun 15, 2009 12:01 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
From what I can see, it seems that they’re not interested in trading for Holliday during the season (which I hope would be the case), but it says nothing about a possible free agent signing.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on Jun 15, 2009 12:04 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nick Johnson is a free agent right? I know he’s not the kind of bat that makes the lineup a whole lot better by himself, but he seems like he’d be a pretty good, fairly affordable bat and may not command more than a 2 year deal. I’m not real clear why Sabean hasn’t already acquired him, what could the Nationals be asking for right now?
Thing A
by sam23 on Jun 15, 2009 12:03 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Matt Cain
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on Jun 15, 2009 12:04 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
ha, you don’t seriously think thats what they’re asking for do you? Are they holding out for Sanchez instead of a reliever? Is there any way they would do a Guzman/Johnson for Renteria/Sanchez deal?
Thing A
by sam23 on Jun 15, 2009 12:20 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was kidding. I might do Sanchez at this point, but I’d love to dangle Merkin and maybe like Billy Sadler or Alex Hinshaw or something and see if they bite.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on Jun 15, 2009 12:21 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yea, I was pretty sure you were kidding, but if they can’t spell their own team name or the 26th President’s name correctly then you never know. I don’t see why a Merkin for Johnson swap doesn’t make both sides very happy. I’ve been wanting to see Nick Johnson in a Giants uni since about the time JT stopped being good, so this is all very frustrating.
Thing A
by sam23 on Jun 15, 2009 12:27 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why would they want Sanchez if they can get Alderson?
by Hobbes2d on Jun 15, 2009 1:58 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I really
don’t like Nick Johnson.
And wish he were never spoken of in rumors for trades with the Giants.
by AmorVincitOmnia on Jun 15, 2009 11:26 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He’d be a fantastic fit for this team in the 2 or 3 spot in the lineup.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on Jun 15, 2009 11:28 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He’s never not injured though. If we can get him in a trade for a reliever (package?) sure, but on the open market I don’t think we have a chance at getting him without a multi-year commitment.
by SeeingStars on Jun 15, 2009 11:33 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I can’t imagine the Nats could ask that much for him in a trade with the injuries and the fact that he’s a FA after the year. I’d do Merkin + another relief prospect for him.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on Jun 15, 2009 11:40 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wow in that case, he would be a great addition. I’d be a lot more relieved if we go for Johnson rather than Beltre.
by SeeingStars on Jun 15, 2009 11:48 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
News flash:
The message has already been sent that the Giants are serious about winning. They’ve been concentrating on rebuilding their farm system over the past couple of seasons. They continue to say that they will not trade their big chips for a FA to be rent-a-player, or some overrated player who can hit some dingerz. Oh and in case you haven’t noticed the Giants ARE winning. It may not be pretty, but they’re one of the best teams in the NL this year like it or not. I don’t know why people are so gung ho to trade Cain right now or in the future. I’m sure they can find another way to continue this rebuild while staying in contention thing, while building for a strong future and having all their important pieces in place at the same time. It’s not like they Cain all of the sudden got good, he’s been good the entire time, he’s just finally getting some very important run support and maturing a little bit into an even BETTER pitcher. The idea is to build around him and Lincecum, not trade him away.
by Hobbes2d on Jun 15, 2009 1:57 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
To me the crucial factor is one that right now should be happening somewhere we can’t see — because the Giants should be starting talks with Cain’s agent in the very near future on a long-term extension, and I’d say they need to be able to get a decent read that this is something that can get done. If I were Matt’s agent, I don’t know that I’d be sending that signal because at 27 he could easily be the dominant figure in his FA class and be looking a CC-esque money. But as I say the Giants should be trying to get a read on that in the near future. If they think they can get a long-term deal done, then I agree with you, build around Timmy and Cain for the future. But if they don’t, and their Timmy/Matt window is only two more years? Then I think they have to think seriously about what his trade value is this winter, when he’s still got two years left on his deal, rather than the winter of 2010 when he’ll be a rent a player.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
by Roger on Jun 15, 2009 6:56 AM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
Totally agree.
"One percent of ballplayers are leaders of men. The other ninety-nine percent are followers of women."-John McGraw, NY Giants Baseball Club
My adopted son Matt Downs . Ranked as the 24th best prospect in the Giants farm system by Baseball America !!
by nvsfg on Jun 15, 2009 7:46 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
My analysis is purely based on Cain's Trade value
— Matt Cain is a very good pitcher that will make a solid #2 in every staff. He can be a #1 in some staffs, but he is not a top 10 pitcher. He is a top 50 pitcher in MLB. Maybe top 30 at this moment.
— Matt Cain is ridiculously cheap and is under team control for the next 2.5 years. He is due 4.5M next year and 6.5 the year after that. His salary is 2M and change this year.
— Because his contract is so good, he demands somebody of equal value (top 50 hitter, maybe top 30, under teams control for 3 years, roughly the same age (24)) AND good contract in return.
— If a player is Equal value to Cain (top 50 player, maybe top 30) but is signed to a contract of his worth, he cannot be traded for Matt Cain. Because Matt Cain is signed to a better contract than him. A Top 30 hitter signed to 4-6M a year for the next 2.5 years is equal value for Matt Cain. A Top 30 hitter signed to 8M a year for only 1 more year is not equal value for Matt Cain.
Matt Cain’s peripherals suggest he is the same pitcher from last year to this year. Going into next year, if we assume he is the same pitcher again, now he is only under team control for 1.5 years instead of 2.5 years. The value of his contract is no longer Insanely good, it is merely “good”
I guess that’s what I was really trying to say, but I got lazy and didn’t type all that out.
by jctGamer on Jun 14, 2009 11:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
To be honest
To be honest, I thought you did pretty darn well the first time.
by sharksrog on Jun 15, 2009 12:06 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
My fiance is a Red Sox fan and based on past experience she says she’d rather have Green, Lugo or Lowrie play shortstop for the Sox over Renteria.
And, of course, the irrational fan in me doesn’t want to see Cain pitch for anybody but the Giants.
The #1 greatest threat to America: BEARS
by norcalnick on Jun 14, 2009 9:24 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Sox are overloaded with starting pitching. In terms of talent, it seems more fair then most other proposed deals, but there is no way something like this happens in the middle of a season.
The artist formerly known as Set-up man
by CB30 on Jun 14, 2009 9:47 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I think I read something about Giants + Derrek Lee somewhere. it’d be interesting, seeing how he’d need to waive his no-trade, but he’s from norcal and is a good glove at 1b and has some pop as well
by i wish we were good on Jun 14, 2009 10:13 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Derrek Lee is no longer a very good hitter. He has an OPS+ of 106 after accruing a 110 last year. That’s above-average to good. After hitting 46 HRs in 2005, he’s hit 57 in the 400+ games since. Even his SLG is on a downward projection since 2005 (if you throw out 2006 due to injury). He’s a decent hitter who is clearly aging and will turn 35 next year. Sure, he’d be an improvement on Uribe/Ishikawa at the corner opposite Pablo and he’d instantly be our clean-up hitter, but what would we be giving up? Sanchez plus a reliever/prospect? He’s certainly not worth Cain.
Joe Martinez: My fingers are crossed and my palms are together for you.
When it's all said and done, America will be remembered for three things: The Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
by cornball on Jun 15, 2009 5:42 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, i definitely wouldn’t give up Cain for him, but if it was something like Sanchez + B prospect, I think it’d be something to think about
by i wish we were good on Jun 15, 2009 10:38 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t think it’d be a very good trade for the Giants.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on Jun 14, 2009 10:20 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
ALSO
It’d probably be a pretty terrible PR trade on both sides, even if it did technically make sense. Pedroia is pretty much God in New England (every girl wants him – I have no clue why, dude looks like a rat – and every dude wants to be him), I don’t think the Sox would have any interest in trading him.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on Jun 14, 2009 10:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s a terrible trade for the Red Sox, too.
by SFGuy on Jun 14, 2009 11:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Neither team would do it, I think. Red Sox aren’t exactly thin on pitching as an organization, Giants aren’t going to swap Cain at this point (when he’s finally looking like an ace even to the less statistically oriented fans out there). If they did trade a player like Cain, I think it would have to be better than a 1-for-1 type deal— at least two advanced prospects/good position players coming back for the Giants. And the Red Sox sure as heck wouldn’t be interested in Renteria again after he already sucked for them a couple of years back.
Idolizing Robb Nen since 2002...
by Smoke on the Water on Jun 14, 2009 11:22 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Man
Talking about trading Matt Cain is getting seriously old.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on Jun 15, 2009 12:05 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Especially now that he’s learned how to win!
Judgment Day is coming
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by Natto on Jun 15, 2009 12:17 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Let’s talk about Fred Lewis and Bengie Molina instead
by jctGamer on Jun 15, 2009 12:18 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
KEVIN FRANDSEN VS EMMANUEL BURRISS
Who sucks less?
A Hard-Hitting Investigative Report
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on Jun 15, 2009 12:20 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You know who we never talk about trading?
Tim Lincecum!
:D
MAH BOY Kevin Pucetas gets nothing but results, and is highly sought after by 29 other major league clubs.
by Sammy Danger on Jun 15, 2009 12:19 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
see, i think that's interesting
granted, timmy is the better pitcher, but some folks out there could argue that this just means we should expect more back, not that we shouldn’t do it. But no one, it seems, wants to even talk about that possibility. I guess part of it’s because he’s undeniably the face of the franchise, but I think another part of it may be psychological— we came close to dealing him for far less than he was worth, and were then shown the immense error of our ways the very next season.
Idolizing Robb Nen since 2002...
by Smoke on the Water on Jun 15, 2009 10:30 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That is not a pretty face for a franchise.
by jnormous on Jun 15, 2009 8:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Butt Pee Nah
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
If Dustin Pedroia played in Seattle, not many people would be talking about him.
by baetown415 on Jun 15, 2009 12:32 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I hate you
I dont really hate you. I hate Pedroia. Cain is 9-1 with an ERA under 3.00. Can we please not trade him?
by gimpsta7 on Jun 15, 2009 7:23 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I do not want to subscribe to your newsletter.
by Lars The Wanderer on Jun 15, 2009 7:30 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
This is
one of the worst trade proposals I’ve heard yet.
-1. Boston doesn’t wasn’t Edgar Renteria, and I don’t think they would bring him on just to acquire Cain. 2, The rationale that Cain is free to do what he likes after 2011 is nonsense, simply ‘cause if the Giants were proactive, they’d extend him NOW rather than wait for his price to drive up. 3, Pedroia is overrated and has had the benefit of playing among a stacked lineup in Boston (who’s to say the #’s will translate). 4, the Giants are weak with power, and Pedroia is not a power hitter. 5, we have a glut of pitching talent, but you propose to trade one of the two guys (Lincecum the other) that all Giants fans would agree they should keep???
In all, bad bad idea. The Giants SHOULD (as in right this minute) first spend the money necessary to keep Cain and Lincecum. With two spots of the starting 5 locked down, with Zito as well, 3 spots of the starting 5 are locked in. Then we have the prospect pitching to trade. If that means an outfielder or corner infielder- those should be the target positions.
Chris Cohan- YOU'RE FIRED!
by bonbrillio on Jun 15, 2009 7:41 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
put down the crack pipe Rog
But of course, trading Cain for anyone this side of Pujols doesn’t help the Giants in 2009. Trading him before the off season is just a classic Beane “we are playing well, but screw it, trade for the future move”. Assuming I wanted to move Cain for future stars, I would gamble on him finishing out 2009 as WBCYC (Wins Bloated Cy Young Contender), and shop him in the off season.
The only trade that makes sense NOW is like a Cain for Pederia + Youkillis or Drew and get a 1B and a 2B. In any case, I don’t see Boston as a trade partner, giving up any kind of ML ready talent.
But hey, look, crack pipe! . I bet we could get Big Papi cheap! Buy LOW!
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
-------
PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game currently in early planning stages.
by zenbitz on Jun 15, 2009 9:54 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
No thanks.
Pedroia is a good player, but the MVP thing was given to him more for being a likable guy, and not because his actual numbers deserved it.
He lacks the power the Giants need, especially in all of his seasons not counting 2008.
by AmorVincitOmnia on Jun 15, 2009 11:17 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
His actual numbers deserved it. He was second in the AL in VORP to A-Rod (by about ~2) and he was undoubtedly a much better defensive player than him. He was a deserving MVP.
I don’t know how likely he is to replicate that though.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on Jun 15, 2009 11:22 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Heh, VORP.
/stats snob
Adoptive parent of Noah Lowry.
:-(
by Cookyman on Jun 15, 2009 2:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
OK, he led the AL in WAR last year too. Good enough for ya? :)
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on Jun 15, 2009 2:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I stand by my heh.
Pedroia was a decent choice. I would have given it to Mauer.
Adoptive parent of Noah Lowry.
:-(
by Cookyman on Jun 15, 2009 3:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
that is a just heh
Prospective parent of new pick, Zack Wheeler. Projectable Righty stolen from the braves. Of course, I stalk my son's myspace: http://www.myspace.com/zackwheelerbaseball
"Obviously I’m not doing things like going toe-to-toe with a ninja. Find me a ninja, for one."--Brian Wilson
by haverecords on Jun 16, 2009 4:05 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t find him all that likable.
Judgment Day is coming
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by Natto on Jun 15, 2009 11:38 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, he’s a douche (along with Youkilis, Papelbon and Beckett)
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on Jun 15, 2009 11:39 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And you would love those three on the Giants.
by SFGuy on Jun 16, 2009 2:40 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Eh, Youk, sure but Papelbon’s peripherals are starting to go way in the wrong direction and Beckett is mostly reputation at this point (he’s still solid but he’s not a #1 starter).
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on Jun 16, 2009 7:42 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
A move from Boston to the NL would likely change that, though.
Merkin Valdez? Manuel Mateo? A rose by any other name...
by rotorueter on Jun 16, 2009 10:37 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Youkilis, yes. The other two, meh.
Judgment Day is coming
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by Natto on Jun 16, 2009 10:30 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Finally, someone brings some common sense to the table.
Judgment Day is coming
comics | art | Nattowear
by Natto on Jun 16, 2009 10:39 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
So?
Bonds used to lick his bat
by Lars The Wanderer on Jun 16, 2009 1:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
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