Post-Game Recap: Giants beat the A's
by Grant Brisbee on Jun 12, 2009 9:28 PM PDT
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PrintCongratulations to Tim Lincecum for the (non-forced) complete game shutout of his career! Even the biggest pitch-count weenie in the world would have left Lincecum out there, as he threw only 98 pitches. Jonathan Sanchez has done that several times -- he calls it "the fourth inning" -- but that shouldn't detract from Lincecum's amazing performance.
Part of me wants to believe that Lincecum has an imaginary rivalry in his head with 2006 1st-overall pick Luke Hochevar, who also threw a complete game tonight. But Hochevar gave up a run. So eat it, Hochevar.
Also of note: Pablo Sandoval started the run barrage (three!) with a deftly placed bunt. Ten pounds of Ty Cobb in an eight-pound sack, that one is. Without the virulent racism, of course.
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Favorite Moments:
1) Nate/Manny Relay
2) Panda Bunt
3) Timmy RBI
These guys looked like an actual MLB team.
"One percent of ballplayers are leaders of men. The other ninety-nine percent are followers of women."-John McGraw, NY Giants Baseball Club
My adopted son Matt Downs . Ranked as the 24th best prospect in the Giants farm system by Baseball America !!
I want the Giants to do well, but I get a sinking feeling the closer we get to contention. I can feel a Mark DeRosa trade a-comin’
Sabean actually sounded pretty logical about it on the radio yesterday
I’m going off memory but it sounded like he wouldn’t trade any big prospects if a trade were to happen and they wouldn’t make any trades until closer to the trade deadline. Also, if i remember correctly, he sounded like he still has confidence in Lewis, so that’s a plus.
I’m confused. You’re saying that this team might be okay? Cause that just doesn’t seem right.
Joe Martinez: My fingers are crossed and my palms are together for you.
When it's all said and done, America will be remembered for three things: The Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
He’s not saying, he’s just saying.
GROUGTHINK ALERT
Chatterbalks dot com: Still with jokes. Now with updates.
Where is that cyborg Tim?
And that Panda. He knows kung fu.
co-dad of IshikaBOOM w/AfDC.
Ishikawa, let the boy hit against lefties.
Play of the week. And his diving play to start DP in Miami was play of last week.
I just wish he could hit better than a junior high school girl.
Forsan et haec olim meminisse iuvabit... Maybe.
by Mayor of 311 on Jun 12, 2009 9:40 PM PDT up reply actions
Hochevar is overrated. Tim is superhuman. It’s clear who the winner is.
Supporting San Francisco Dugout since 2005 and Manny Burriss since 2006, and bringing you all your California League needs since 2009.
by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Jun 12, 2009 9:35 PM PDT reply actions
Imagine my surprise to see this “Matt Palmer is in line for his sixth win…” on the MLB.com front page.
He’s going to be left in the rotation the rest of the season. The Angels are putting Kelvim Escobar in the bullpen.
sure he is. When he’s 6-0 they can say anything. Wait until the real Matt Palmer shows up.
Proud new dad of Edgardo errr Edgar Renteria!!!
Great
The WHY DID WE LET MATT PALMER GO meme will never die.
Supporting San Francisco Dugout since 2005 and Manny Burriss since 2006, and bringing you all your California League needs since 2009.
by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Jun 12, 2009 9:42 PM PDT up reply actions
Why would Wilson be in?
Are you implying the Giants taking a lead? Against Matt Palmer?
Insanity is just a state of mind.
Brian Wilson is best reliever of all time. Makes Mariano Rivera look like Armando Benitez.
Joe Martinez: My fingers are crossed and my palms are together for you.
When it's all said and done, America will be remembered for three things: The Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
Of course
I may skip that game entirely.
Anagram of "knowing how to win" = WOW, I KNOW NOTHING
by Stuttering John Tamargo on Jun 12, 2009 9:44 PM PDT up reply actions
JPonry was the Deputy Mayor of 311 tonight. She is welcome to use those tix ANYtime.
Forsan et haec olim meminisse iuvabit... Maybe.
Thank you SO MUCH
I will definitely have to take you up on that again sometime.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
Smooth w/ the ladies
Extremely proud adoptive parent of Paul E. Stanley, hacker extraordinaire
Thanks to roger
I've never been happier to have Crabs
by bondslegend on Jun 12, 2009 10:45 PM PDT up reply actions
Lincecum and Cain: The best 1-2 punch in baseball for the next decade or so?
Wall-E for Best Picture 2008
McCC = McClain Chronicles
maybe
they could pay in actual, live Zito
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
-------
PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game currently in early planning stages.
Wrong #2 guy
I think the Giants could indeed have the top starting duo in baseball in the 2010’s — but I think it is more likely to be Lincecum and Bumgarner. With Matt Cain, I think they could have the top trio.
CastilLOL
Anagram of "knowing how to win" = WOW, I KNOW NOTHING
by Stuttering John Tamargo on Jun 12, 2009 9:39 PM PDT reply actions
I love the fact that K-rod gets a blown save and a loss for that.
Judgment Day is coming
comics | art | Nattowear
the funniest thing is that after dropping it, Castillo throws it to second while the winning run is scoring.
Proud new dad of Edgardo errr Edgar Renteria!!!
I think he was hoping A-Rod would be dumb enough to run into a tag before the run crossed the plate. But then he should have thrown to first.
co-dad of IshikaBOOM w/AfDC.
Ishikawa, let the boy hit against lefties.
I think you’re giving him too much credit for actually having a plan there. I doubt it ever occured to him where he should throw the ball in case he drops it. If he had thrown it straight home he probably gets Texeira.
Proud new dad of Edgardo errr Edgar Renteria!!!
If he had caught the ball…
I was in a Brooklyn bar last night. Not really a sports bar, but it had the game on (YES) muted. And of course people perked up as it was tied in the eighth and the mets break down Mo, and then the pop up…. and Castillo drops it. The crowd went wild!
co-dad of IshikaBOOM w/AfDC.
Ishikawa, let the boy hit against lefties.
Speaking of strange endings. Did anyone catch the highlights of the KC/CLE game yesterday?? The game winning single bounced off one of those gulls in center.
by SeeingStars on Jun 12, 2009 11:15 PM PDT up reply actions
That park is a joke
2 more homers today. The first one, Buck said “Off the end of the bat….and it’s gone”
The next was “Rodriguez pops it up…..and its gone”
It makes the Phillies and Rockies yards look like Petco.
by Lars The Wanderer on Jun 13, 2009 1:50 PM PDT up reply actions
Both of those home runs were complete jokes
I don’t know how anybody can take any of the yankee players’ stats seriously. What a complete fucking joke of a park.
Manny being TV.
Supporting San Francisco Dugout since 2005 and Manny Burriss since 2006, and bringing you all your California League needs since 2009.
by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Jun 12, 2009 9:40 PM PDT reply actions
Transvestite? Is that because he has great makeup?
Forsan et haec olim meminisse iuvabit... Maybe.
by Mayor of 311 on Jun 12, 2009 9:41 PM PDT up reply actions
Pablo is now three for three on bunt attempts. He’s amazing :D
Proud father of Barry Zito. As long as he keeps throwing strikes, that is.
HELL YA HE IS
Extremely proud adoptive parent of Paul E. Stanley, hacker extraordinaire
Thanks to roger
I've never been happier to have Crabs
by bondslegend on Jun 12, 2009 10:51 PM PDT up reply actions
The end boss was hard.
Supporting San Francisco Dugout since 2005 and Manny Burriss since 2006, and bringing you all your California League needs since 2009.
by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Jun 12, 2009 9:41 PM PDT up reply actions
It was hard, but I was ten and had a summer to kill.
by Grant Brisbee on Jun 12, 2009 10:05 PM PDT up reply actions
As Acting Chief of MCC Pitch Count Weenieness
I agree with this statement:
Even the biggest pitch-count weenie in the world would have left Lincecum out there,
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
-------
PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game currently in early planning stages.
here comes a greaseball
Supporting San Francisco Dugout since 2005 and Manny Burriss since 2006, and bringing you all your California League needs since 2009.
by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Jun 12, 2009 9:45 PM PDT up reply actions
Is that what that was? I was pissed that he was making fun of cerebral palsy.
Forsan et haec olim meminisse iuvabit... Maybe.
by Mayor of 311 on Jun 12, 2009 9:46 PM PDT up reply actions
Giants vs. Oakland must be wearing thin
Only 35,000+ announced as the attendance (meaning there were probably under 30,000 in the stands).
In fairness, all added up, probably 12,000 have restraining orders against Kevin Mitchell and/or Will Clark.
So instead of making the guys miss the 89 celebration, the fans stayed away. Classy of them.
Forsan et haec olim meminisse iuvabit... Maybe.
by Mayor of 311 on Jun 12, 2009 9:48 PM PDT up reply actions
Bud Selig says shut up
TEH INTRELEAGUE PLAY IS ECXITING
Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."
There's 3 ways to do something: the right way, the wrong way, and the Max Power/ Ginats Way...
by natteringnabob on Jun 12, 2009 11:53 PM PDT up reply actions
Posey and Gillaspie keep on hitting/walking
Posey: 1-3, double, walk
Gillaspie: 1-2, 2BB – He’s not hitting for power, but BOY DOES HE WALK!
Amazin' Avenue looks like McCoveyChronicles after the Balknitez Incident
Status: So pissed that the Giants sold my wall of Ks to Johnsonville Sausages, that I'm boycotting purchasing anything at the park, or patronizing their sponsers.
my goddamn Tivo
Keeps recording that game
has "baseball’ and “San Francisco Giants”
They keep running it as a Mets Classic Game
/me shakes fist
Tommy Lasorda HATES GIANTSBOARD.COM
Giantsboard Blog Because everyone needs a blog
Say Hey! Say Who? Say Willie, that Giant Kid is Great!
Goddamn I love Timmy
Best of Senator Clay Davis: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TI4-QyAzY64&feature=related
"You are the master of cool." - Claire
Just got home
Was doing family stuff all day. Very very happy to see what happened. :)
by positiveuphemism on Jun 12, 2009 10:15 PM PDT reply actions
Got back from the game
I was sitting in an area filled with obnoxious A’s fans and non-baseball fans. Lame crowd there. It was amusing listening to a coworker try to explain baseball to an Indian coworker though.
Judgment Day is coming
comics | art | Nattowear
311 was pretty good. Though I was sitting next to a Red Sox fan who tried to bait me about Barry Bonds. I was just like, “whatever.”
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
You should have reminded him on Manny Ramirez (and I’M a Red Sox fan). He’s likely to have taken PEDs during his days there.
I thought about saying something like, “If you think that there aren’t any Red Sox players who used and haven’t admitted to it -” (because he started talking to his date about how Giambi admitted it but Bonds didn’t) – “then blah blah blah something clever”. But I just kind of rolled my eyes instead.
He was shocked when I said that 3 years of living in Boston hadn’t made me a Sox fan.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
I was a Sox fan when I moved to Boston. I wasn’t when I left.
Joe Martinez: My fingers are crossed and my palms are together for you.
When it's all said and done, America will be remembered for three things: The Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
True story: In the ’80s, a family friend took an Indian coworker to a Giants game. He seemed interested, but he really perked up when the second baseman came up to hit.
“Ah! Ravi Thompson! Is he Indian?”
They laughed for a couple of innings/years about that one.
by Grant Brisbee on Jun 12, 2009 10:57 PM PDT up reply actions
to an Indian coworker though.
It’s like cricket, but they wear Pajama’s and it doesn’t suck
Tommy Lasorda HATES GIANTSBOARD.COM
Giantsboard Blog Because everyone needs a blog
Say Hey! Say Who? Say Willie, that Giant Kid is Great!
Baseball:
It’s like cricket; only better
by SoFa King Mike on Jun 14, 2009 9:05 AM PDT up reply actions
Just got back from the game, so awesome. One day I hope to find a woman that I love as much as I love Timmy.
I was also at his first complete game in San Diego. I’m either lucky or a good luck charm.
by TimLincecumIsGod on Jun 12, 2009 10:57 PM PDT reply actions
I’m sure you’ll be able to find plenty of women who love Timmy as much as you do if that helps.
Judgment Day is coming
comics | art | Nattowear
I know a woman that kinda looks like Timmy
She’d got a little more facial hair though
Happy to introduce you
Tommy Lasorda HATES GIANTSBOARD.COM
Giantsboard Blog Because everyone needs a blog
Say Hey! Say Who? Say Willie, that Giant Kid is Great!
Tim seems like he’s trying to grow some facial hair. He had the beginnings of a molestache going today, from what i could see.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
ALSO
There were these two douchebags sitting in the Field Club level behind Home Plate, decked out in full McGwire and Canseco uniforms, including some big fake WS trophies. I hope they had a good time. :)
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
they showed those 2 guys on tv
they even made it in to the game story
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/recap?gameId=290612126
Two Oakland fans were dressed in full uniforms, with wigs and sunglasses, imitating Mark McGwire and Jose Canseco and carrying a replica of the World Series trophy.
a WHOLE sentence!
I don't want to click the link
in case they are “injecting” each other in the buttocks
Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."
There's 3 ways to do something: the right way, the wrong way, and the Max Power/ Ginats Way...
by natteringnabob on Jun 12, 2009 11:55 PM PDT up reply actions
Did you see the group of A’s fans sitting in the arcade that were flipping off everyone? Classy!
Judgment Day is coming
comics | art | Nattowear
Couldn’t see that from where I was but it sounds like they could use a few lessons from Randy Winn. >:(
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
BOCHY WHY WOULD YOU PLAY SCHIERHOLTZ IN RIGHT
GROUGTHINK ALERT
Chatterbalks dot com: Still with jokes. Now with updates.
actually, Bochy doesn’t even deserve credit for that one. From what I’ve read, Nate told Bochy he’s more comfortable in rightfield, and when Randy Winn heard that he volunteered to play left when Nate is playing.
Proud new dad of Edgardo errr Edgar Renteria!!!
Randy Winn...
Professional Baseball Player.
"One percent of ballplayers are leaders of men. The other ninety-nine percent are followers of women."-John McGraw, NY Giants Baseball Club
My adopted son Matt Downs . Ranked as the 24th best prospect in the Giants farm system by Baseball America !!
Randy Winn...
As sick of watching Fred Lewis in left as the rest of us.
by Bay Area Sports Guy on Jun 13, 2009 1:56 PM PDT up reply actions
Well, you know, coming to SF is the only time they ever get the chance to go to a ballpark.
by shanghaijim on Jun 13, 2009 12:11 AM PDT up reply actions
I guess we have to call him Rick now. (à la Scott.)
by satyricrash on Jun 13, 2009 12:13 AM PDT up reply actions
When they gave Nen the plaque
a few years back….the scoreboard ran his lifetime stats with the name
ROB NENN
Tommy Lasorda HATES GIANTSBOARD.COM
Giantsboard Blog Because everyone needs a blog
Say Hey! Say Who? Say Willie, that Giant Kid is Great!
I wonder how many players privately hate being involved in Until there is a Cure day. Knowing how far to the right Jeff Kent was (he donated $15,000 for Prop. 8), he probably didn’t want to do this.
I seriously, seriously doubt they’re heartless enough to be like that. Well, maybe Jeff Kent. But AIDS is not just a gay disease, if that’s their issue.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
Tell that to the idiots who hang around the starting line of the AIDS Walk with bullhorns telling us if we need to stop the buttsecks, God will cure our disease. Fortunately they taper off at about the mile mark. I guess God doesn’t give them the strength to walk the other 5.2 miles the rest of us do to fight AIDS.
Supporting San Francisco Dugout since 2005 and Manny Burriss since 2006, and bringing you all your California League needs since 2009.
by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Jun 13, 2009 12:49 AM PDT up reply actions
I'm a Christian
And I hate when people do that. That’s not the right way, losers…
Insanity is just a state of mind.
A gay couple walking ahead of us yelled YOU NEED A BLOWJOB at one of the protesters with his shitty bullhorn thing. I thought that was an A+ response.
Supporting San Francisco Dugout since 2005 and Manny Burriss since 2006, and bringing you all your California League needs since 2009.
by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Jun 13, 2009 1:16 AM PDT up reply actions
I always think it’s best to just let them spew whatever it is they’re yelling, and completely ignore them. But if something genius can be said, let it be said.
Insanity is just a state of mind.
The best revenge is to do well. I raised $700 by myself last year, and I’m doing the walk for the third year in a row. I raise at least $700 each year I walk.
Supporting San Francisco Dugout since 2005 and Manny Burriss since 2006, and bringing you all your California League needs since 2009.
by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Jun 13, 2009 1:34 PM PDT up reply actions
hypocrites like Tom Lasorda who hated his gay son, yet tells hookers how he loves lesbian porn. I saw Darryl Strawberry on TV yesterday, and they asked him who his favorite managers were, and he named everyone except Tommy Lasorda. The announcer then asked him if he liked Tommy, and he shook his head with a disgusted look on his face.
Proud new dad of Edgardo errr Edgar Renteria!!!
/moves “Straw” up a few notches on the repect list.
"One percent of ballplayers are leaders of men. The other ninety-nine percent are followers of women."-John McGraw, NY Giants Baseball Club
My adopted son Matt Downs . Ranked as the 24th best prospect in the Giants farm system by Baseball America !!
I met Rudy Law and I was with a bunch of Dodger fans, and when they all asked just how much he loved Lasorda ( on a scale of a lot to a hell of a lot) he responded that Lasorda was the worst manager he ever played for, and that he was terrible with managing players and didnt treat people the same. They were all speechless before attacking him and saying he was wrong. It was hilarious and Rudy and I had a good eye roll.
Congrats to my soul mate and birth brother Zach Wheeler on being drafted into greatness. Should I just buy my Wheeler jersey now, or wait till my next birthday?
by TexasRanger on Jun 13, 2009 10:55 AM PDT up reply actions
Dusty Baker said the same thing.
Randy Winn is going to catch that. And he'll do it real classy-like too.
Darryl Strawberry just got a little cooler in my book.
GROUGTHINK ALERT
Chatterbalks dot com: Still with jokes. Now with updates.
Yeah, in the early days of it, there was some discomfort from some of the players.
Dewey, as mentioned, wore the fish sideways and said it looked like a fish (as in the Christian symbol) that way. I can’t remember the names of some of the other self-professed “Christians,” but I know there were 2-3 others who were reported to be uncomfortable with it.
Barry Bonds was actually instrumental in making this thing successful and accepted. I remember the first UTAC Day, and there was the quilt ceremony out on the field, and speeches, and then both teams (forgot the opponent) came out on the field, and it was Barry Bonds who led the Giants out to the crowd of people in red t-shirts who formed the red ribbon in CF, and he waved the other team over, too. The players all met by the ribbon and shook hands. That was leadership.
Forsan et haec olim meminisse iuvabit... Maybe.
by Mayor of 311 on Jun 13, 2009 10:43 AM PDT up reply actions
Awesome. Fucking awesome.
Supporting San Francisco Dugout since 2005 and Manny Burriss since 2006, and bringing you all your California League needs since 2009.
by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Jun 13, 2009 11:57 AM PDT up reply actions
This picture made me smile a lot.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
And he looks like he has an absolutely epic mullet.
by Bay Area Sports Guy on Jun 13, 2009 2:00 PM PDT up reply actions
I love this pic. This is the heart of something really good that is happening.
by positiveuphemism on Jun 13, 2009 12:22 AM PDT up reply actions
They're like
“No u!”
“No u!”
“No u!”
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
“I’d go hungry trying to eat you bro!”
Supporting San Francisco Dugout since 2005 and Manny Burriss since 2006, and bringing you all your California League needs since 2009.
by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Jun 13, 2009 12:57 AM PDT up reply actions
Panda- “u da Man”
Tim " No..U da man"
"One percent of ballplayers are leaders of men. The other ninety-nine percent are followers of women."-John McGraw, NY Giants Baseball Club
My adopted son Matt Downs . Ranked as the 24th best prospect in the Giants farm system by Baseball America !!
T-Minus One Second to Hug-Off
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Jun 13, 2009 9:50 AM PDT up reply actions
I think Pablo should bunt when the other team doesn't expect it.
Just to keep the infielders from playing back way deep.
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
If Dustin Pedroia played in Seattle, not many people would be talking about him.
That bunt led to the Giants only runs the entire game. Giants didn’t even have a base runner before that play.
I believe Randy Winn reached base on a Hanrahan error in the previous inning. Otherwise Molina would have led off that inning, not Sandoval. Shows you how a little thing can change a game. If Molina leads off instead, he probably makes out and Pablo doesn’t bunt. Maybe the game’s still going as a scoreless tie.
Proud new dad of Edgardo errr Edgar Renteria!!!
But you don’t bunt to break up a no-hitter! Oh no’s
by positiveuphemism on Jun 13, 2009 12:33 AM PDT up reply actions
The unwritten rules clearly state that in the fifth inning of a scoreless tie, it’s cool to get on however you can.
Duane Kuiper: Hall Of Fame broadcaster.
by Johnny Disaster on Jun 13, 2009 8:08 AM PDT up reply actions
TWSS!
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Jun 13, 2009 9:52 AM PDT up reply actions
Hey Now!
Duane Kuiper: Hall Of Fame broadcaster.
by Johnny Disaster on Jun 13, 2009 1:57 PM PDT up reply actions
I hate bunts, even when they work. I really have no problem with it having happened, and I understand the utility when it’s done in severe moderation, but I really freaking hate watching it.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Jun 13, 2009 9:51 AM PDT up reply actions
OH GOD YOU FOUND ME OUT!
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Jun 13, 2009 1:04 PM PDT up reply actions
I assume you mean sac bunts – I think bunting for a hit is an exciting play when done well. If you can get on at better than .300 with bunt attempts, they should be a regular part of your game.
Duane Kuiper: Hall Of Fame broadcaster.
by Johnny Disaster on Jun 13, 2009 2:00 PM PDT up reply actions
Actually, no. A bunt can only only get you to first base, so they always lower your SLG. Bunting only makes sense if your OBP (which is identical to your AVG) on bunts is significantly higher than your overall OBP. If your overall OBP is below .300, you probably don’t belong in the majors.
Adoptive parent of Noah Lowry.
:-(
I think it makes a lot of sense for Sandoval. If the third baseman is playing him deep, it’s almost a guaranteed base, and then it forces the guy to play in for the next at bat, reducing his chances at catching a groundball.
Randy Winn is going to catch that. And he'll do it real classy-like too.
If his odds of bunting for a hit are very high, like 50%, which is possible, then it makes sense. I was responding to the claim that " If you can get on at better than .300 with bunt attempts, they should be a regular part of your game", which, even though it sounds like it makes sense, really doesn’t.
Regarding the “it forces the 3B to play deep” argument, well, does it really? And more importantly, how much does it really matter? Think of it this way – the odds of Pablo putting the ball into play in the next at bat are about 80% (strikeouts, walks, home runs, and HBP’s make up about 20% of his PA’s). The odds of that ball in play being a groundball are about 50%. The odds of that ground ball going to the 3B are, at best, 20%. The odds of that ground ball to the 3B turning out to be a hit are, again at best, 30% (in a very small sample size, Pablo’s AVG on ground balls is .290. League average is .235).
Now, what are the odds, that, had the 3B played a couple of steps back, this theoretical groundball would have been a hit? Lets give it a 40% chance, which I think is very generous.
So, for every bunt he drops, Sandoval gains .0096 hits in his next AB. Statistically, he’d need to drop 105 bunts in order to gain 1 hit on a grounder to the 3B.
Adoptive parent of Noah Lowry.
:-(
Even if the advantage gained is small, it’s generally a good idea to try not to be predictable and let defenses get comfortable against you. Besides, baseball is a game of seeking small advantages.
Randy Winn is going to catch that. And he'll do it real classy-like too.
It’s generally a good idea to try not to be predictable and let defenses get comfortable against you.
One of those things people say that don’t really mean anything. Again, if you’re really good at bunting, you should bunt. But that bunt’s effect on your next AB shouldn’t really be a factor in your decision.
Adoptive parent of Noah Lowry.
:-(
I hope you learn this lesson on baseball rather than something more important as you seem like a guy who’s got a future in some form of quantitative analysis. Here’s what I want you to remember: Just because something has not been formalized or validated, does not make it meaningless. No one has done any study to validate whether defenses perform better against “predictable” hitters or “unpredicatable” ones. I doubt that an effective study could be done. But that does not make the idea automatically wrong or meaningless.
I happen to believe it from personal experience, and I think the majority of players would agree that it’s easier to play defense against a guy that you don’t have to think about. That’s not proof, but only believing in proven things would restrict the number of things you believe in to a handful of theories about light, particles and waves.
Randy Winn is going to catch that. And he'll do it real classy-like too.
This.
Duane Kuiper: Hall Of Fame broadcaster.
by Johnny Disaster on Jun 13, 2009 4:34 PM PDT up reply actions
you seem like a guy who’s got a future in some form of quantitative analysis.
This needs to be said: no. I dislike math, I really do. Always have. I’m pretty good at it, but I find it to be mind-bogglingly boring. The only, and I mean only reason I’m interested in baseball stats, is that I like baseball. I like learning stuff about baseball. When I was young, I’d spend a ton of time trying to memorize exactly how each of our pitchers’ curveball, slider, and change up moves, and at what velocity. It wasn’t because I was interested in physics. I just wanted to be able to call pitches before the announcers did. Many of us can read a 5,000 word breakdown of exactly why Lincecum’s mechanics are perfect. Not because we like learning about the human anatomy. Because we like baseball.
And, while I have no idea what’s my future going to be, I’m pretty sure it’ll have nothing to do with math. I’m probably going to major in history, then realize that the only job I can get that has anything to do with history is teaching history, which I don’t want to do. Then I’ll freak out. That’s my plan, and I’m sticking to it.
Anyway:
Just because something has not been formalized or validated, does not make it meaningless.
That’s true. But there’s a problem – you could use that argument for anything. Yes, we haven’t found the Loch Ness Monster. We searched the lake and found nothing. We proved that all the photos in which it appeared were fakes. But we didn’t prove that it doesn’t exist, did we? Therefore, we are not to say whether or not the Loch Ness Monster exists.
And here’s the thing – you can never prove that something doesn’t exist. It’s impossible. You could conduct the most elaborate study, trying to prove that Nessie doesn’t exist, but the only conclusion you’d reach is that “we failed to find any evidence of it’s existence”, which, like you said, proves nothing.
That’s why the burden of proof is not on us. It’s always on those who argue that something does exist, or did happen. If you claim that I stole money from you, that the earth in getting warmer every year, or that we’re all going to die in 2012, it’s your responsibility to show evidence that support your argument, not mine to find evidence that contradicts it.
There’s a problem with that, too. Only believing in proven things wouldn’t allow me to get through the day. I’d get up, see the wall in front of me, and, having no proof that it exists, assume that it doesn’t, walk right into it, and break my nose. We have a solution for that – logic. In the absence of proof, we turn to logic. That’s what I did with my pseudo-sabremetrics a few comments up.
The reason I said that “It’s generally a good idea to try not to be predictable and let defenses get comfortable against you” doesn’t really mean anything wasn’t because no one proved it does mean something. It’s because I think it’s one of those sentences that get thrown around without much thought behind them. When people say things without really thinking about them, what they say is meaningless. That’s what I meant.
Now, obviously I’m not accusing you of not thinking about what you’re saying. What I do think you’re doing, is generalizing when we should try to be specific. Yes, in general, it’s good to be unpredictable and try to surprise the defense. But what exactly are we talking about here? We’re talking about the bunt. Does it surprise the defense? Yes. But what does that mean? The 2B and SS may be surprised, but that doesn’t really help us. They’re not going to change their positioning next AB, as the bunt doesn’t really affect them. For the 1B, too, the bunt is just normal play, since non-speedsters only drop bunts to the 3B size. The pitcher and catcher may be surprised, but that doesn’t help us, since the can’t change their positioning. So whatever effect the bunt will have on our future AB, it has to do with the 3B. Like I tried to show, but obviously didn’t prove, even if the 3B changes positioning, its effect on us isn’t very big. In vacuum it might be important, but when you consider all the other factors that go into your decision to bunt or not, it isn’t really. So while being unpredictable is generally a good thing, in this specific case, the bunt doesn’t have much of an effect on our next AB.
A different way to put it: not striking is a good thing for hitters. Players who don’t strike out often are, in general better than players who do. No one would argue with that. But if we compare Hanley Ramirez and Emanuel Burriss, by looking, or at least trying to look, at every single aspect of their game, and come to the conclusion that Hanley is the better player, the fact that Burriss strikes out less shouldn’t affect us. Because players who don’t strike out are generally better, but why? Because fewer strikeouts => more hits => better offensive contribution. That is true, in general. But once we conclude that Hanley is the better offensive player, in spite of the strikeouts, the general point about strikeouts doesn’t matter anymore. It becomes meaningless. Am I making any sense?
Adoptive parent of Noah Lowry.
:-(
Well...
In the chapter regarding bunting in The Book, the author talks extensively about it and comes to the conclusion that…. I said in my original post.
So it’s not my original idea.
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
If Dustin Pedroia played in Seattle, not many people would be talking about him.
2 points.
Well, if you’re future is really not in statistical modeling, then the Ricardian vice becomes less of a deadly sin and more of a harmless eccentricity (though even in history you may not escape math, just look at the work of Gavin Wright). I do not agree with you philosophy of science, but I don’t think I’ll clog up the boards of a baseball blog arguing with it, other than to say that I don’t think there is such thing as a burden of proof for most of the beliefs that humans have.
In specific, I’m not exactly sure how big of an advantage Pablo gets from the bunt. There is a book on him, and doubtless that book says “careful, you can’t play him too deep, or he’ll lay a bunt down.” So I doubt it only influences their position on his next at bat. Pablo hits a ton of groundballs, so I’m pretty sure keeping the 3B in could be valuable to him, though I can’t quantify how valuable.
THe other specific thing I like about the play is that it has a psychological effect. Winning a baseball is not just about scoring runs and not making outs. Sometimes it’s about convincing the other team that they can’t win, that no matter what they do, the outcome of the game is not in their hands. Doing stuff like that get the other team thinking instead of playing and lead to other mistakes down the road. Again, all stuff not provable, but it is part of the game as played.
I really love statistics, and not just in a baseball setting. But I don’t like to restrict myself to talking about only things that can be quantified with them. It’s too restrictive, even in the toy world of baseball.
Randy Winn is going to catch that. And he'll do it real classy-like too.
The other specific thing I like about the play is that it has a psychological effect. Winning a baseball is not just about scoring runs and not making outs. Sometimes it’s about convincing the other team that they can’t win, that no matter what they do, the outcome of the game is not in their hands. Doing stuff like that get the other team thinking instead of playing and lead to other mistakes down the road.
It’s definitely possible. On the other hand, maybe the bunt pisses off the opposing players, and drives them to do better. That sounds just as likely to me, if not more.
Fact is, if our bullpen hadn’t broken down in game six, there’s a good chance that, to this day, we’d remember Baker giving Ortiz the game ball as the moment that broke the Angles’ spirit, and allowed us to cruise through the last three innings. Instead, our bullpen did break down, and people still haven’t forgiven Dusty for it.
You keep on making this about statistics, but I don’t understand why. It’s not like I just pulled some stat from jcb9’s ass Fanraphs that supports my claim. You argued your point, I argued against it. No need to make me look like some cynical dick who doesn’t care about Love, God, and Santa Claus because they’re not scientific enough. Because that’s only 66% true.
Adoptive parent of Noah Lowry.
:-(
I don't understand your point about singles and SLG
if I hit a single every time I bat, my SLG will be 1.000, right? As almost everyone has a SLG lower than 1.000, then wouldn’t a single help the SLG in just about every case?
Forsan et haec olim meminisse iuvabit... Maybe.
by Mayor of 311 on Jun 13, 2009 2:40 PM PDT up reply actions
You’re right, that doesn’t make sense. But it’s SLG fault, not mine. A bunt single is completely identical to a BB – you get to 1B safely and all runners advance one base (OK, bunts also give you the chance of a throwing error, but walks tire the pitcher more. Let’s call it even). Both of them increase your OBP. Both of them should increase your SLG. That’s not the case, for historical reasons. It’s also an example of how OPS, and to a lesser extent OPS+, underrate walks. But I digress. Bunt hits = walks. So a hitter who walks 30% of the time and makes an out the other 70% is identical to a player who bunts .300. A hitter who walks 30% of the time and makes an out the other 70% is a terrible hitter. Therefore, bunting .300 is terrible.
Adoptive parent of Noah Lowry.
:-(
Bunt hits don’t precisely = walks. A walk doesn’t advance a runner from second to third without a force for example. No such thing as a suicide walk and so forth.
Duane Kuiper: Hall Of Fame broadcaster.
by Johnny Disaster on Jun 13, 2009 3:47 PM PDT up reply actions
A suicide squeeze is generally a sacrifice bunt, so it’s not really irrelevant. Also, since you mentioned it – “walk attempts” never cause the runner on 3B to be out at the plate – only suicide squeezes can do that. Bunts with a runner on 2B and no one on 1B are very rare. Even if bunt singles are more valuable than walks, it’s very very very close.
Adoptive parent of Noah Lowry.
:-(
But not precisely… I was just quibbling to annoy you, I ‘m afraid. It’s my reaction to what I percieve as the false precision of sabremetrics.
Even as I have learned a great deal and even changed the way I look at the way the game should be played (small example: range is more important than fielding pct. for outfielders), the tones of mathematical certainty I hear at times remind me of derivatives traders circa 2002. It’s just that while I think analyzing actual results mathematically is an incredibly powerful tool and a very valid way of looking at the game, as a fan it doesn’t capture the entirety of what I love about the sport.
What can I say? It’s religious, I think… I dance at the feet of the gods of capricious, random luck. For instance, I am apparently a win mystic. I know they aren’t a good way of evaluating a pitcher’s performance, but I respect pitchers that win a lot. I really do think 300 wins is a great accomplishment for a pitcher. I love Matt Cain and think he has pitched basically as well for the last couple of seasons as this season, but some irrational part of me is gratified to see him getting the wins.
Duane Kuiper: Hall Of Fame broadcaster.
by Johnny Disaster on Jun 13, 2009 4:28 PM PDT up reply actions
Also, I don’t think the squeeze should be played exactly as a sacrifice, even if it gets scored that way. The bunter should wait until at least after the runner breaks rather than squaring around early for instance.
Duane Kuiper: Hall Of Fame broadcaster.
by Johnny Disaster on Jun 13, 2009 4:38 PM PDT up reply actions
I mean, you’re not bunting for a hit certainly… but you want the element of surprise… OK, sorry for wasting everyones’ time, I’m gonna go make dinner.
Duane Kuiper: Hall Of Fame broadcaster.
by Johnny Disaster on Jun 13, 2009 4:47 PM PDT up reply actions
I'm with you. Another way of saying what you're saying about the risk of over-reliance on exotic stats:
The map is not the same thing as the territory.
Some stats really do a good job of explaining aspects of baseball, some don’t. No matter what, it is important to keep remembering that the map isn’t the territory.
Forsan et haec olim meminisse iuvabit... Maybe.
by Mayor of 311 on Jun 13, 2009 10:27 PM PDT up reply actions
I think you're right
I agree with you that Matt Cain HAS pitched as well the past two seasons as this one — despite his 15-30 record in 2007 and 2008 compared to now 9-1 in 2009. I think there have been two primary differences:\
First, Matt is finally getting run support. At six runs per nine innings, he is getting almost double the run support he got in 2007 and 2009.
Second, his strand rate is through the roof.
Hopefully the first will continue. I don’t see him continuing to get six runs per nine the rest of the way, but I would certainly settle for five. The second almost certainly can’t.
Matt has essentially allowed only half as many runners to score as he has over the three-plus previous seasons of his career. If he were to keep that level up, as far as I know it would be unprecedented in modern baseball history — by a fair amount.
That said, Matt is only two or three starts from making the All-Star team, possibly as the starter. His luck will catch up to him eventually, but let’s hope it isn’t until after the All-Star game.
Matt and Tim are now a combined 15-2 this season. Tim is 31-11 on his career, and Matt deserves far more than his 39-44 mark. Hopefully Matt can get over .500 before the season ends.
Two things:
First, I should have been more clear, players without a lot of home run power who can bunt well enough should make it a regular part of their game (how regular I don’t know). You’re right that the success rate probably should be more like .350… but I don’t think it needs to be significantly higher than your OBP because as long as it isn’t hurting your OBP it’s forcing the infield to play in without costing anything.
Second, I primarily watch baseball because I like watching baseball. I like close plays, especially in close games and bunts are often close plays. I am friggin’ annoyed when Juan Pierre bunts for a hit and I like it when the Giants similarly annoy the opposing teams’ fans. I like watching things like triples, surprise drag bunts and properly executed outfield defense like last night’s play at home. Doing stupid things that the team outs or bases obviously bothers me… but last night’s bunt started the only scoring rally and I think severely affected the pitcher’s concentration. How can I hate it?
Duane Kuiper: Hall Of Fame broadcaster.
by Johnny Disaster on Jun 13, 2009 3:43 PM PDT up reply actions
but I don’t think it needs to be significantly higher than your OBP because as long as it isn’t hurting your OBP it’s forcing the infield to play in without costing anything.
How is it not costing anything? You’re sacrificing any chance you had to hit a extra base hit. That’s pretty significant.
And I never said you should hate bunts. I like bunts. I loved watching Pablo drop one. I do despise the sacrifice bunt and everything it represents, but that’s different.
Adoptive parent of Noah Lowry.
:-(
This all started as a reaction to the ‘I hate bunts’ comment. It wasn’t you that you that made it, sure, but that has never stopped me before…
Duane Kuiper: Hall Of Fame broadcaster.
by Johnny Disaster on Jun 13, 2009 4:32 PM PDT up reply actions
Nope, I mean bunting for a hit. There are times when sac bunts make a heck of a lot of sense.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Jun 13, 2009 2:37 PM PDT up reply actions
Oh, I appreciate the utility of a sac bunt late in a close game. And I respect players that are professional enough to have developed that skill. But I don’t really like ’em.
Duane Kuiper: Hall Of Fame broadcaster.
by Johnny Disaster on Jun 13, 2009 3:45 PM PDT up reply actions
The thing I don’t like about bunting for a hit is that it just feels like you’re potentially giving up a lot for something that is going to be a damn close play 10 out of 10 times. I understand taking advantage of a defensive set, or forcing a defense to play in, but I would prefer to give my guy a chance to hit a double 100% of the time over trying to force a third baseman to play in three innings from now.
To me, the bunt hit thing seems like a strategy for a team or a player who you don’t think has a shot at a double.or more. Which is a team or player who isn’t good enough to be enjoyable to watch. Maybe a little simple, but that’s that.
And sure, that often describes the Giants. And I don’t enjoy watching them hit when it does.
I don’t know if that’s coherent. Hopefully it is. Very simple version: I want to feel like a guy at least had a shot at extra bases in his at bat. The bunt hit makes that pretty much impossible. And I’m skeptical – though I don’t know the numbers – if it’s successful often enough to be worth the sacrifice.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Jun 13, 2009 4:58 PM PDT up reply actions
Bunting for a hit
Bunting for a hit is almost always a good play as long as it works.
It’s really pretty terrible when it doesn’t, though.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Jun 14, 2009 5:37 PM PDT up reply actions
I never get the players who never walk, but love to bunt. I get it when they’re trying to hit a home run, but when you’re bunting, you’re limiting yourself to one base anyway.
Adoptive parent of Noah Lowry.
:-(
You are definitely correct that the player who would benefit from bunting is exactly the player who should be working counts and getting free bases as much as possible.
Duane Kuiper: Hall Of Fame broadcaster.
by Johnny Disaster on Jun 13, 2009 3:46 PM PDT up reply actions
nothing relative here.
Just wanted to say it feels good to be a Giant fan.
NL West TempestTeapot
Nothing matters , and what if it did?
by victor frankenstein on Jun 13, 2009 12:53 AM PDT reply actions
So...
Did anyone else think Bochy was going to pinch hit for Timmy in the 5th with the bases loaded and 1 out?
Hitler was a Dodgers fan.
Bat rack
Mmmmmm….. Vicki Vale
Forsan et haec olim meminisse iuvabit... Maybe.
by Mayor of 311 on Jun 13, 2009 10:47 AM PDT up reply actions
Loved the Giants game...
But, the ending of that Mets/Yankees game almost had me in tears I was laughing so hard. Granted, it would have been even better if it had been the Yankees who had given away the game, but I don’t know too many people who wouldn’t find that one shamefully hilarious (except Mets fans).
Admit it: you love his ass too.
GROUGTHINK ALERT
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