OT: How good was Yogi?

by sam23 on Jun 11, 2009 6:02 AM PDT Comment 81 comments

I apologize for bringing this here, but the McCoven are some of the best baseball minds I have access to.

So I was up really late/early the other night/morning and got distracted watching the Mike and Mike show while I should've been studying for finals. Its not a show I would normally watch or listen to, but because I'll do anything to procrastinate and there's not much else on besides Girls Gone Wild ads at 3:30 a.m. I got sucked into their discussion about whether the Yankees are the greatest franchise in sports history. Comparing teams or franchises across different sports seems more than a bit ridiculous but what caught my ear was when they said the Yankees had at least 7 or 8 guys who were "locks" as top 50 players of all time. They included Yogi Berra on their list.

Now I'm no baseball historian, but that seemed a bit odd to me. I know Yogi is widely regarded as being among the top handful of catchers of all time, but I never thought of him as being that elite. Again, because I'll do anything to procrastinate, I took a quick glance at some of Yogi's basic stats, confirmed my belief and fired an e-mail off to the show expressing my feelings on the subject. To my surprise, I got an e-mail back the next morning from ESPN's Bob Picozzi (apparently he does morning SC?) stating that Yogi is, indeed, a clear top 50 player of all time. Since then Picozzi and I have been firing back and forth.

His arguments for Berra so far are pretty much just "he's a 3 time MVP," "He was the second best player on a team that won 12 pennants in 14 years from 51-64" and "look at his post-season stats." I'm convinced that Yogi deserved the '55 and '56 MVPs less than Jeff Kent deserved the award in 2000. I'm not arguing that he wasn't great, and not even that he ISN'T among the top 50 of all time, simply that if he is, he's at the very, very bottom of that 50 and not a "shoe-in" or "lock." But, I'm really drawing all my judgements from baseballreference.com so I figured I'd hit up some people who know a whole lot more about baseball than me....what say you McCoven? Am I way off and not giving Yogi nearly enough credit, or is he really just another like-able guy slightly overrated by some east coast bias?

Poll

Was Yogi Berra one of the top 50 players of all time?

Yes, definitely

9 votes

No, absolutely not

19 votes

meh, he's borderline

17 votes

who cares? get back to studying, thats gotta be more entertaining than a meaningless debate over just how good some old Yankee was.

10 votes

55 votes | Poll has closed

This FanPost is reader-generated, and it does not necessarily reflect the views of McCovey Chronicles. If the author uses filler to achieve the minimum word requirement, a moderator may edit the FanPost for his or her own amusement.

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Comments

Top 50 of all time is pretty steep competition. Without actually getting the list of Hall of Famers, I’d guess Yogi is somewhere in the second 50. Maybe 75ish. Maybe lower.

Sergio Romo: striking out professional hitters since 2005. And winner of the 2012 NL Fireman of the Year Award!

by Lyle on Jun 11, 2009 6:21 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Yea I started listing guys and came up with at least 45 guys who I felt were clearly better.

Thing A

by sam23 on Jun 11, 2009 12:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Sure he is. Look at his numbers in the decade from 1948 to 1957 — consistent OPS+ around 130, while catching 140 games a year. That’s a superduperstar.

by Evan on Jun 11, 2009 6:45 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

According to SABR he was. In 1999 they voted five times on the the Top 100 greatest Baseball players. I voted no, and my top 100 would be in a different order from this list. I mean Barry Bonds at #65 and Yogi at #26 ?

"One percent of ballplayers are leaders of men. The other ninety-nine percent are followers of women."-John McGraw, NY Giants Baseball Club

My adopted son Matt Downs . Ranked as the 24th best prospect in the Giants farm system by Baseball America !!

by nvsfg on Jun 11, 2009 6:48 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Your link doesn’t work … but even in 1999, Bonds at #65 is inexcusable.

by Evan on Jun 11, 2009 6:49 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Link Fail, Link Fix

SABR 100 Greatest Baseball Players

Not enough coffee yet.

"One percent of ballplayers are leaders of men. The other ninety-nine percent are followers of women."-John McGraw, NY Giants Baseball Club

My adopted son Matt Downs . Ranked as the 24th best prospect in the Giants farm system by Baseball America !!

by nvsfg on Jun 11, 2009 6:59 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Have another cup. That’s a Sporting News list, not SABR.

by Evan on Jun 11, 2009 7:40 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

That Sporting News list is an absolute travesty

Brooks Robinson is #80. I almost stopped right there. But then I looked down further and the greatest pitcher ever, Cy Young, is #14 and (IMHO) the best player ever, Honus Wagner, is directly below him at #13.

And I don’t get why anyone would diss Ty Cobb. Racist scoundrel as he was, still deserves the spot at #3.

These are my principles. If you don't like them, I have others. -Groucho Marx

by RDreamer on Jun 11, 2009 9:39 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Wagner probably should be higher but who do you lose to put him in? I’d say Grover Alexander but it’s hard to make a case against anyone in the top 14.
Also, I know I’m in the minority but I’d put Hammerin’ Hank lower than five.

Rafael Rodriguez: #8 on our list, n/a on a stat sheet.
BBk supports Sleepy's Law: "As a hoops discussion grows longer, the probability of an absurd trade proposal involving LeBron James approaches 1."

by BrianBokake on Jun 11, 2009 10:07 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Well...

I say switch Honus out with Rogers Hornsby, and then move him up to where Aaron is.

Grover Cleveland Alexander is one of the best pitchers ever and deserves his slot.

These are my principles. If you don't like them, I have others. -Groucho Marx

by RDreamer on Jun 11, 2009 10:41 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I’m with you in that minority, Brian. Hank wouldn’t crack my top 20, most likely.

Sergio Romo: striking out professional hitters since 2005. And winner of the 2012 NL Fireman of the Year Award!

by Lyle on Jun 12, 2009 7:20 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

We’re aware of your irrational hate of Aaron.

Adoptive parent of Noah Lowry.

:-(

by Cookyman on Jun 12, 2009 7:43 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Not that anyone will read this, but I don’t actually hate Hank Aaron. No doubt he endured off-field problems that I cannot comprehend. And he was a solid hitter – I would have been happy to have him on my team any time. But I don’t think he was the greatest hitter ever, nor the greatest HR hitter ever. He greatly benefitted from small home ballparks in achieving his HR totals. Was a good HR hitter? Oh, absolutely. But if he and Mays had competed on an equal footing, playing home games in similar parks, I believe Mays would have easily eclipsed him in HRs. Plus, Mays was a better defender and played a more demanding defensive position. And then you factor in speed…

I do not hate Hank Aaron.

Sergio Romo: striking out professional hitters since 2005. And winner of the 2012 NL Fireman of the Year Award!

by Lyle on Jun 13, 2009 9:18 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Young is not the greatest pitcher ever. He just has the most decisions ever.

by positiveuphemism on Jun 11, 2009 10:35 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Walter Johnson = greatest pitcher ever.

Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.

by jponry on Jun 11, 2009 10:42 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

That's because he was consistently great for a very long time.

There’s a reason we have the Cy Young award. Who do YOU think is the greatest ever?

I’d also like to point out, that Josh Gibson is #18 on the list, and this makes me happy.

These are my principles. If you don't like them, I have others. -Groucho Marx

by RDreamer on Jun 11, 2009 10:45 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Cy Young? That guy was the biggest loser in baseball history!

A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.

by Roger on Jun 11, 2009 5:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Wow..

Can I fail any more today :-(

"One percent of ballplayers are leaders of men. The other ninety-nine percent are followers of women."-John McGraw, NY Giants Baseball Club

My adopted son Matt Downs . Ranked as the 24th best prospect in the Giants farm system by Baseball America !!

by nvsfg on Jun 11, 2009 9:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

The SABR List, For Real this time

"One percent of ballplayers are leaders of men. The other ninety-nine percent are followers of women."-John McGraw, NY Giants Baseball Club

My adopted son Matt Downs . Ranked as the 24th best prospect in the Giants farm system by Baseball America !!

by nvsfg on Jun 11, 2009 9:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Wow, interesting list. I still think Yogi is overrated on it. Having him as better than Roger Clemens is a little ridiculous. Joe Morgan, too.

Bay City Ball

by xanthan on Jun 12, 2009 5:58 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I got stuck...

…when you suggested that Mike & Mike was a better option than Girls Gone Wild ads.

Really?

Stupid is as Ruben Rivera does...

by bkrhater on Jun 11, 2009 6:59 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

ha, yea I know

I was trying to NOT be too distracted as I studied.

Thing A

by sam23 on Jun 11, 2009 1:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

It’s not so much that Girls Gone Wild does anything special for me, necessarily. It’s just that I find Mike & Mike to be complete weiners.

You could’ve said your only other option was cutting your cuticles with printer paper and I’d have been equally surprised.

Stupid is as Ruben Rivera does...

by bkrhater on Jun 11, 2009 2:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Mike Golic tends to be the lone voice of wisdom about the steroids issue on ESPN. No joke.

Bruce Bochy would like you to look at the career numbers and stop complaining.

by cheno on Jun 11, 2009 4:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

In no paticular order

Babe Ruth
Ty Cobb
Barry Bonds
Willie Mays
Ted Williams
Cy Young
Randy Johnson
Roger Clemens
Pete Rose
George Brett
Juan MArchial
Stan Musial
Honus wagner
Ricky Henderson
Hank Aaron
A-Rod
Pujols
Greg Maddox
Johnny Bench
Mauer (if he plays long enough)

Thats 20 I think I can find another 30 easily (even not including Jeter)

Minor White > Ansel Adams

by say hey nation on Jun 11, 2009 7:03 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

I would take any one of these players + an average C than have Berra + average player else where

Minor White > Ansel Adams

by say hey nation on Jun 11, 2009 7:04 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

fail

this list includes players that did not wear the sacred pinstripes

Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."

There's 3 ways to do something: the right way, the wrong way, and the Max Power/ Ginats Way...

by natteringnabob on Jun 11, 2009 7:11 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Bonds/Mays/Williams/Honus/Mantle (where’s Mantle?) > Cobb

"he walked 18; new league record! Struck out 18, another new league record! He also hit the sportswriter, the PA announcer, the bull mascot twice..."

by i did my job on Jun 11, 2009 9:23 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Mantle definitely not better than Cobb

He certainly had the potential to be but Ty Cobb was essentially the best player playing every year he was in the bigs. The only thing he didn’t do better than almost anyone was hit for power but that’s largely because of the style of play of the day.
I’ve read a story about Cobb telling reporters before a game that if he were so inclined he could be a power hitter (largely as a reaction to the recent attention garnered by Babe Ruth), that game Cobb went out and hit three home runs.

by BrianBokake on Jun 11, 2009 10:20 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

In that story

Just checked, Cobb told two reporters that for the first time in his career he would try to hit home runs. he moved his hands down toward the bottom of the bat instead of his normal spaced out grip and hit 5 homers in the next two games and another to close out their three game series against St. Louis.

by BrianBokake on Jun 11, 2009 1:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I’d give that a 5% chance of being true.

Adoptive parent of Noah Lowry.

:-(

by Cookyman on Jun 11, 2009 3:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

yea and if it is, why didn’t he continue to bat like that for the rest of his career? Did he just find it too boring to hit it out of the park every other at bat?

Thing A

by sam23 on Jun 11, 2009 3:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

He felt bad for the other players.

Adoptive parent of Noah Lowry.

:-(

by Cookyman on Jun 11, 2009 4:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

only explaination:

he was a complete and utter moron who doesn’t understand baseball.

Or, maybe it was a fluke.

FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
-------
PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game currently in early planning stages.

by zenbitz on Jun 11, 2009 11:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Or maybe it never happened.

Adoptive parent of Noah Lowry.

:-(

by Cookyman on Jun 12, 2009 5:18 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I realize baseball journalism has a history of sensationalism but if “meh, probably didn’t happen” is your only reply that’s pretty weak.

http://www.baseballlibrary.com/ballplayers/player.php?name=Ty_Cobb_1886

by BrianBokake on Jun 12, 2009 10:27 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

And again, not saying this is definitely true, but it’s a great story about what an enormous talent/ego Cobb was.

by BrianBokake on Jun 12, 2009 10:29 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

It’s a cute story. That doesn’t make it a true one.

Adoptive parent of Noah Lowry.

:-(

by Cookyman on Jun 12, 2009 3:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Let’s put it this way – if Cobb could actually hit 2-3 home runs every game, at will, but just chose not to, then he is one of the dumbest people in the history of baseball.

Adoptive parent of Noah Lowry.

:-(

by Cookyman on Jun 12, 2009 3:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Ty Cobb was a different breed of cat.

He was a cerebral player. The type of guy who would rather slap a single, and then steal second, third and home just to demoralize the other team, prove to them that they could not stop him. He would often sharpen his cleat spikes where the other team could see him do it, just to get into their heads.

He hated the fact that people like Babe Ruth were famous for hitting home rons, he didn’t think that took any skill at all and was beneath a player of his caliber to specialize in it. In 1909 he led the league in home runs anyway, with a grand total of 9. Parks were bigger then, I guess.

These are my principles. If you don't like them, I have others. -Groucho Marx

by RDreamer on Jun 12, 2009 4:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

He was a cerebral player. The type of guy who would rather slap a single, and then steal second, third and home just to demoralize the other team, prove to them that they could not stop him.

Then he was so stupid, I doubt he knew how to tie his shoes.

Are you people serious? Do you actually believe that Cobb could have hit 2-3 home runs every game – which would mean 380 home runs a year – if he wanted to, but just chose not to? Because it was more fun for him to hit a single and then score maybe once every three times?

Adoptive parent of Noah Lowry.

:-(

by Cookyman on Jun 12, 2009 4:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think Cobb could have hit for more power if he wanted to. 2-3 HR’s a game, no way. But I think he could have hit a lot more than he did. The fact that he was one of the best players to ever play, and DOMINATED the sport for much of his career is a testament to his talent and sure will to succeed.

by Hobbes2d on Jun 12, 2009 8:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Exactly

Is it that hard to believe someone with a .366 average over 24 seasons was a tremendous hitter? I don’t think anyone is suggesting that he could have hit hundreds of home runs in a season. I just think he could swing the bat as well as anyone who’s ever played and the numbers certainly back that up.

by BrianBokake on Jun 13, 2009 3:51 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Many players could have hit for more power if they wanted to. Most players, if they focused less on making contact and more on driving the ball, would hit for more power. Yes, Cobb was an incredible player, so were Bonds, and Ruth, and Williams, but none of them could approach the power numbers that story implies that Cobb could have reached.

I don’t believe that Cobb could have been the best slugger in the history of the game, by far, but chose not to because it was more fun for him to “demoralize” the other teams by slapping singles and then not scoring 70% of the time. And it seems that neither do you. If you agree that, even though he was a great hitter, he didn’t actually have the ability to hit multiple home runs whenever he wanted to, then you’re agreeing with me and zenbitz – Cobb was incredible, but that story is either not true, or merely a fluke. I don’t see what’s the argument here.

Adoptive parent of Noah Lowry.

:-(

by Cookyman on Jun 13, 2009 4:36 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Would you at least agree that Cobb could have hit more HR’s if he had wanted to, and purposely chose not to do so because (1) he thought it was a bit of a stunt that somewhat cheapened the purity of the game and (2) he was all about the mental competition between teams?

Sergio Romo: striking out professional hitters since 2005. And winner of the 2012 NL Fireman of the Year Award!

by Lyle on Jun 13, 2009 9:22 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Did he really think it’s “a stunt that somewhat cheapened the purity of the game”? He still had 117 career home runs, and led the league in them in 1909.

Like I said, I’m sure Cobb could have hit more home runs if he had wanted to, I just think that the same is true for many other hitters. It’s definitely possible that it’s more true for him than for others. That’s not really a point in his favour though. I mean, “he could have been a much better player, but wasn’t, because he thought it wouldn’t be as cool” isn’t exactly something you’d write on someone’s HOF plaque.

Adoptive parent of Noah Lowry.

:-(

by Cookyman on Jun 13, 2009 9:41 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I presume Cobb would disagree with your assumption that hitting more homeruns equals “being a better player.” And that’s all I’m saying, really.

Sergio Romo: striking out professional hitters since 2005. And winner of the 2012 NL Fireman of the Year Award!

by Lyle on Jun 15, 2009 6:49 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

If he really was a better home run hitter than Ruth, then, well he’d be wrong. And I thought your point was that he didn’t like home runs because they were a trick that cheapened the game, and he was all about the mental competition. That has nothing to do with whether or not they make you a good player.

Adoptive parent of Noah Lowry.

:-(

by Cookyman on Jun 15, 2009 10:33 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

1) no order
2) quick list

Minor White > Ansel Adams

by say hey nation on Jun 11, 2009 10:23 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

smarter than the average bear

also, maybe depends on whether or not you wipe out folks for juicy juicing?

Or whether you are considering position by position? Not too many catchers to go ahead of him. He’s 72 on the all-time HR list, and there seem to be plenty of guys from 1-71 (Canseco, Juan Gonzalez, Andruw Jones) that are less deserving to be in the top 50 than him.

Finally, you know how people rave about Pablo and Pujols hitting whatever they see? Imagine if Pablo were the best fielding catcher in the game and puts his average batting numbers up every year until 2024.

Actually, this just makes me depressed that Pablo is playing 1B/3B. I’m leaving now.

Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."

There's 3 ways to do something: the right way, the wrong way, and the Max Power/ Ginats Way...

by natteringnabob on Jun 11, 2009 7:10 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

If we're just talking position players....

I think he might be a borderline Top-50 player of all-time. If we’re including pitches, he’s not a Top-50 all-time player.

Bay City Ball

by xanthan on Jun 11, 2009 7:15 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

*pitchers

Bay City Ball

by xanthan on Jun 11, 2009 7:18 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I also I guess it depends on how you define what’s “Top-50” and what isn’t. I’m talking total career value — ie: the sum of a player’s career. But, if you’re talking peak value, he’s probably a lot closer.

Bay City Ball

by xanthan on Jun 11, 2009 7:22 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yea Bill James had him at 56 among position players….but I don’t know when that list was made.

Thing A

by sam23 on Jun 11, 2009 1:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yogi was really, really good but I don’t know about top 50 all time.

Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.

by jponry on Jun 11, 2009 8:36 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

7 or 8 locks

I pulled out the BJHBA. Mr James has the following Yankees in his top 50:

1 Babe Ruth
6 Mickey Mantle
13 Joe DiMaggio
14 Lou Gehrig
41 Yogi Berra

Berra is the top rated catcher of all time in the Abstract.

That said, 7 or 8 seems off base, although not entirely. The trick is to include sorta-Yankees, which an asshole radio host from NYC would do without a second thought. That way you get #26 Rickey Henderson, #49 Roger Clemens, and almost-certainly-top-20-by-now-since-the-list-was-written-in-2000 Alex Rodriguez. Although knowing these morons, they probably just counted Derek Jeter three times.

"he walked 18; new league record! Struck out 18, another new league record! He also hit the sportswriter, the PA announcer, the bull mascot twice..."

by i did my job on Jun 11, 2009 9:19 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Jeter

once for grit
once for leadership
once for sass

= 3 times on the list

Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."

There's 3 ways to do something: the right way, the wrong way, and the Max Power/ Ginats Way...

by natteringnabob on Jun 11, 2009 10:16 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Another time for Jeremy Giambi not sliding

by BrianBokake on Jun 11, 2009 10:21 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Another time for not actually tagging Jeremy Giambi, and getting away with it.

I only have a signature because I recognize everyone else by their sigs, not their usernames..

by lmaozedong on Jun 11, 2009 1:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

James actually has Josh Gibson at #9, so he’s the highest-rated catcher.

I am surprised he has Yogi ahead of Bench, though.

by Evan on Jun 11, 2009 11:26 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Just create your two greatest teams...

Is he in the top four catchers? If yes, he’s top 50, if no, he’s not. This is a very simplistic/crude way to do it, though. There will of course be some positions that don’t get equal representation. It’s a really quick way to do it.

Bench
Lombardi
Piazza
Cochrane
Irod
Gibson (yeah yeah, but you know he was better)

are some that immediately pop into mind that I would pick before Yogi. So I’d say definitely not top 50. Maaaaybe top 100 and if so, past 75.

by positiveuphemism on Jun 11, 2009 10:33 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

The others are debatable, but I don’t think you can make a legit case for Ernie Lombardi. He was slower than Bengie Molina, had several of his best years when everyone else was off at the war, and didn’t actually catch all that many games.

by Evan on Jun 11, 2009 11:34 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

You are probably right. The Bill James book gave me a crush on him when I was 16 and it never really went away. The key is from what I read, he was the best hitter in the game. He just was so slow that his numbers balanced out. Shrug.

by positiveuphemism on Jun 11, 2009 11:37 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Must have been fun to watch him hit — apparently the infielders all played on the grass, since he was so slow they could throw him out anyway. And he still hit a career .306.

Also, he gripped the bat with his fingers interlaced.

by Evan on Jun 11, 2009 11:39 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Campanella?

Thing A

by sam23 on Jun 11, 2009 1:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Dodgers don’t count

by positiveuphemism on Jun 11, 2009 3:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

SUCK IT RUSSEL MARTIN

/obligatory

by otis29 on Jun 11, 2009 3:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yogi was great

and a champion

by wilriv21 on Jun 11, 2009 4:07 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Interesting:

Yogi Berra career OPS + of 125, 3 MVP’s. 3 other top 3 finishes.

Roy Campanella career OPS + of 124. 3 MVP’s.

Mickey Cochrane career OPS + of 128. 2 MVP’s. 1 other top 5 finish.

Bill Dickey career OPS + of 127. 3 top 5 finishes in MVP.

Johnny Bench career OPS + of 126. 2 MVP’s. 2 other top 5 finishes. 10 GG’s.

Joe Torre career OPS + of 128. 1 MVP (as a 3b), 1 GG as a catcher. 1 other top 5 MVP finish.

Carlton Fisk career OPS + of 117. 2 top 5 MVP finishes, 1 GG,

Gary Carter career OPS + of 115. 2 top 3 MVP finishes. 3 GG’s.

Mike Piazza career OPS + of 142. 4 top 5 MVP finishes (3 in the top 3) But defensively meh.

Having looked at Joe Torre’s career he is vastly underrated as a player. Kind of interesting.

by Hobbes2d on Jun 11, 2009 6:03 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Does this count?

I have yet to watch a baseball player in a commercial as many times as I’ve seen that damned AFLAC barbershop ad that cracks me up as consistently.

no , I guess it doesn’t. But still. So there.

NL West TempestTeapot
Nothing matters , and what if it did?

by victor frankenstein on Jun 11, 2009 6:31 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Definitely the funniest player out there

Bill Simmons was contemplating the least funny player of all time on his podcast. They came up with Ty Cobb.

Bruce Bochy would like you to look at the career numbers and stop complaining.

by cheno on Jun 11, 2009 7:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

by SFGuy on Jun 11, 2009 10:06 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

FWIW

My edition of Total Baseball Encyclopedia’s TPR system had Yogi at 79. The New Bill James Historical Abstract lists Yogi at #41, and has him rated as the #1 overall catcher.

Although he doesn’t say it, that preference on James’ part is no doubt based partly on the fact that, as someone said above, he was the 2nd best player on a team that dominated the majors his entire career. I suspect that because it falls in line with his reason for slightly bumping down Gehrig (“If Ruth and Gehrig really were the #1 and 2 players of all time why did they win relatively few pennants together?”) and his highly provocative argument in favor of reinstalling Tinkers’, Evers’, and Chance’s HOF bonafides (on a team with no offense and meh pitching, if they’re D wasn’t HOF worthy than explain how they anchored the greatest winning team over a 1-year, 2-year, 3-year, 4-year, 5-year, 6-year, 7-year, 8-year, 9-year, or 10-year span in major league history.)

by Roger on Jun 13, 2009 5:42 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Roger

Interesting that TBE’s system comes close to my seat-of-the-pants guess. Who are their top 20 guys?

Sergio Romo: striking out professional hitters since 2005. And winner of the 2012 NL Fireman of the Year Award!

by Lyle on Jun 13, 2009 9:24 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

With the caveat that mine is the 2001 edition, so some players (Bonds, Maddux, Clemens) will have moved up the scale since then, here’s the Top 25

1. Ruth
2. Mays
3. Lajoie
4. Cobb
5. Walter Johnson
6. Bonds
7. Aaron
8. Speaker
9. Williams
10. Hornsby
11. Wagner
12. Schmidt
13. Cy Young
14. Mantle
15. Rickey Henderson
16. Eddie Collins
17. Musial
18. Gehrig
19. F. Robinson
20. Alexander
21. Mathewson
22. Ott
23. Maddux
24. Lefty Grove
25. Clemens
25t. Kid Nicholds

by Roger on Jun 13, 2009 10:01 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Nap Lajoie at #3 is an eccentric choice. It would be hard to argue that he was a better player than Honus Wagner.

by Evan on Jun 13, 2009 11:45 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Nap certainly jumps off the list. But I should say, the list is above was intended to avoid reflecting somebody’s “choice”, just the numerical outcome of their TPR system that added Adjusted Runs, Fielding, Runs, Base Stealing Runs, minus positional adjustment, divided by a Runs Per Win Factor. I noted that Bonds, Maddux, and Clemens would be placed differently on the same list today, but really I’m sure a lot of these guys would be affected as statistical analysis has gotten more sophisticated. The point you bring up of Nap v. Wagner in part reflects the problems of trying to get a decent statistical score for the defensive abilities of turn of the century players.

by Roger on Jun 13, 2009 3:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah, those defensive stats are pretty much outs per balls hit in your direction. We don’t have play by play data for games played before 1956. So it’s outs per a random number we hope is close to the number of balls hit in your direction.

Adoptive parent of Noah Lowry.

:-(

by Cookyman on Jun 13, 2009 3:50 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Bonds number 6 in 2001.

co-dad of IshikaBOOM w/AfDC.
Ishikawa, let the boy hit against lefties.

by kennv on Jun 13, 2009 12:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

The Giants have 4 of the top 22, if I scanned that correctly. Not too bad.

Sergio Romo: striking out professional hitters since 2005. And winner of the 2012 NL Fireman of the Year Award!

by Lyle on Jun 15, 2009 6:48 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

4 plus 1 year of Rogers Hornsby — although in retrospect that was really a bad bad trade. The balance of power in the NL followed Frankie Frisch from NY to StL, and I don’t think that was entirely coincidental.

It’s bittersweet to see all the extraordinary HOF level talent that have worn Giants unis in their peak and think of the relatively paltry championship hay we’ve made out those careers.

by Roger on Jun 15, 2009 8:41 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs