Dirty Sanchez
by Hobbes2d on May 31, 2009 3:44 PM PDT
110 comments
*Please note that this is not a reactionary "TRADE SANCHEZ" post.* I am just curious as to the fellow McCoven's views of Sanchez. I for one, find him to be a talented left handed pitcher, but I also find him to be very expendable and highly overrated by many Giants fans. People seem to think he is some valuable asset. Yes, normally LHP's who throw in the low 90s fastball, good slider and high K rates are rare and very good to have, but not so much when they fail to find the strike zone consistently. I for some time have thought that Sanchez should be the kind of prospect or pitcher that we can form a deal around to get a decent younger hitter. Although lately I'm wondering if he can even return something like that with the continued meh pitching performances.
So my questions for you are: What do you think Sanchez's ceiling is? Do you think he is capable of being a ML starter? Or will his command ultimately force him to become reliever? And last but not least, would you trade Sanchez? Or do you find him to be an important piece to the GIants future?
I myself think he's a poor man's Oliver Perez at best. Although I find he might have higher upside if thrown into a set-up role or even as a closer. But even then I have doubts about his abilities to throw strikes consistently in a closer role. So perhaps middle relief/set-up like Affedlt was forced to do in KC after failing as a starter.
This FanPost is reader-generated, and it does not necessarily reflect the views of McCovey Chronicles. If the author uses filler to achieve the minimum word requirement, a moderator may edit the FanPost for his or her own amusement.
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He’s not a poor man’s Oliver Perez, he is Oliver Perez. But that’s not particularly good.
I still think the best role for him is as a 120-inning-per-year reliever, but they don’t do that anymore, so I dunno.
by Evan on May 31, 2009 4:05 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
120 IP
Now that’s an interesting idea.
by Dan from NM on May 31, 2009 9:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If a pitcher struggles with his command regularly, is it a good idea to put that pitcher in the bullpen? I can’t answer this question.
I'm thinking but nothing's happening.
by JRPhillips on May 31, 2009 4:08 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
the ceiling is high but right now the room is largely empty
Randy Winn is going to catch that. And he'll do it real classy-like too.
by oldjacket on May 31, 2009 4:10 PM PDT reply actions 2 recs
Ooh, that’s really kinda profound. Worthy of Mr. Samuelson, at least.
Sergio Romo: striking out professional hitters since 2005. And winner of the 2012 NL Fireman of the Year Award!
by Lyle on May 31, 2009 5:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I still like him but he’s been tough to watch at times lately.
by xanthan on May 31, 2009 4:14 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
And yet the Marlins seem to be interested in him. Makes me wonder if they would throw him in the pen if they do end up trading for him.
by Hobbes2d on Jun 1, 2009 12:52 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Who would they trade for him?
Cuz I heard the Uggla rumors were shot down?
That true?
by AmorVincitOmnia on Jun 1, 2009 8:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think he would be fine as a reliever. He wouldn’t have to go through the lineup multiple times, it would be harder to time him, he would be fine with two pitches, and he conceivably could throw harder (although he may lack the control to throw any harder).
by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on May 31, 2009 4:19 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Plus he would be brought in against lefties more:
Career K/BB vs. RHB: 1.54
Career K/BB vs. LHB: 4.05
by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on May 31, 2009 4:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sanchez has no command of his pitches. He should get that at AAA or be part of a large trade.
by wilriv21 on May 31, 2009 4:29 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Personally, I think Sanchez is kind of a dork.
But he does have a car, and the chicks seem to be into that.
My son is Madison Bumgarner, the Spacebat of pitching prospects. My other son is a Porsche.
by multiphasic on May 31, 2009 4:32 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Sanchez’s ceiling is the Sistine Chapel. Trade him for the statue of David (Wright)
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by Useful_Idiot on May 31, 2009 4:33 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
he really hasn't pitched that much
he has thrown about 300 major league innings and 250 minor league innings. They used to say that a guy needed at least 600 innings in the minors before he was ready for the bigs. That may not be the case for everybody, but unless you’re Tim Lincecum, that is more likely than not, true. (Obviously, these days, teams don’t wait that long.)
How the Giants handled him stunted his development, IMO. Really, this is Sanchez’s 2nd season as a starter in the majors and he really only had one season in the minors as a full-time starter. He’s still only 26 years old and he still needs time to harness his stuff. I would definitely give him more time to work it out before writing him off. Someone will give it to him because he has talent. That team being the Giants seems less likely every week.
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by nostocksjustbonds on May 31, 2009 4:41 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
His ceiling?
A poor man’s Oliver Perez is, frankly, ridiculous.
Of course, now I’m going to utter what many consider to be equally ridiculous.
His ceiling is a poor man’s Randy Johnson.
"Catcher are base running. Hitters are offense."
Only [hella] games left until the end of Zito's [no, make that Rowand's] contract.
Adoptive father of "Poncho" Villalona: This Angel don't fly. Nothing about him is light.
by thehavenot on May 31, 2009 4:46 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Oliver Perez is a poor man's Randy Johnson.
Actually, he’s pretty much the actual Randy Johnson through age 27.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
by Bhaakon on May 31, 2009 4:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I can buy the comparison to Oliver Perez. I can’t buy calling him a “poor man’s” version.
"Catcher are base running. Hitters are offense."
Only [hella] games left until the end of Zito's [no, make that Rowand's] contract.
Adoptive father of "Poncho" Villalona: This Angel don't fly. Nothing about him is light.
by thehavenot on May 31, 2009 5:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The reason for me calling him a poor man's Perez is...
I don’t think Sanchez is ever going to put up a season like this….
196 IP, 145 H, 81 BB 239 K 1.153 WHIP, 2.98 ERA.
Their career peripherals are also nearly identical, with Perez’s being a slightly better.
by Hobbes2d on Jun 1, 2009 12:37 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That was one season
"Catcher are base running. Hitters are offense."
Only [hella] games left until the end of Zito's [no, make that Rowand's] contract.
Adoptive father of "Poncho" Villalona: This Angel don't fly. Nothing about him is light.
by thehavenot on Jun 1, 2009 11:27 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why so sure? Have you seen how Perez has pitched other than that one season?
"Catcher are base running. Hitters are offense."
Only [hella] games left until the end of Zito's [no, make that Rowand's] contract.
Adoptive father of "Poncho" Villalona: This Angel don't fly. Nothing about him is light.
by thehavenot on Jun 1, 2009 6:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Because I really have a hard time believing Sanchez is going to just figure out how to throw strikes. Plus I’m not sure his stuff is on par’s with Oliver’s. Perez has a better breaking pitch.
Also Perez has 2 decent years for the Mets already. True when Perez is bad, he’s BAD, but when he’s able to find the plate he can put together some good seasons and already has.
by Hobbes2d on Jun 2, 2009 12:37 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If you want to compare the two
Sanchez’ FIP last year(3.85) was better than any season Perez put together, except for one(3.45). I’d probably wait a couple season before comparing the two as Sanchez has only put together about 200 innings worth of starts… but if you want to compare what they’ve done so far, Perez has only put together one season that was better than what Sanchez did last year.
by superk1ng on Jun 2, 2009 8:30 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
a poor man’s version of Oliver Perez is a guy that isn’t on a MLB roster
by FluLikeSymptoms on May 31, 2009 5:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was considering writing this, but I figured everyone would think I was crazy.
If he can harness his stuff, he’s going to be very good. And right now, he’s Oliver Perez. I can live with it.
Proud father of Barry Zito. As long as he keeps throwing strikes, that is.
by MonkeyChow on May 31, 2009 5:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think the "poor man's" Oliver Perez is an apt description, actually.
The real Perez was capable of putting up a fringe-Cy season on stuff alone. I don’t think Sanchez can do much better than the current mid-high 4-ish ERA without improving his command.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
by Bhaakon on May 31, 2009 10:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The real Perez?
Look at his career stats and tell me if that “fringe-Cy” season is the “real” Perez or if the 5.00+ ERA seasons are the real Perez.
Command was always the issue with Perez too. Thus, Sanchez being equated to Perez is about right. Sanchez being equated to a “poor man’s” Perez is an insult.
"Catcher are base running. Hitters are offense."
Only [hella] games left until the end of Zito's [no, make that Rowand's] contract.
Adoptive father of "Poncho" Villalona: This Angel don't fly. Nothing about him is light.
by thehavenot on Jun 1, 2009 11:31 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It was obviously the real Perez.
Unless the Pirates employed some sort of alien technology to swap him with Johan Sanata’s clone.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
by Bhaakon on Jun 2, 2009 4:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're using the term "Real Perez" in a much too literal sense, here
"Catcher are base running. Hitters are offense."
Only [hella] games left until the end of Zito's [no, make that Rowand's] contract.
Adoptive father of "Poncho" Villalona: This Angel don't fly. Nothing about him is light.
by thehavenot on Jun 2, 2009 8:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I find him very frustrating to watch.
GROUGTHINK ALERT
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by groug on May 31, 2009 4:50 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Others wish they had our problems
I for one am glad he’s in the rotation ,even though he’s had me pulling out my hair at times.Give Bochy some credit for faith and sticktoitness. He has a lot more than I would have had patience for. It seems that he can remain a valuable addition to the rotation.As long as we have the great middle relief preforming as it has, we will win games, And even journeymen like Rowand since he’s seems to have found himself in the Lead off spot are producing all batting averages are going the right way,…up! If we keep playing the youngsters and giving them decent playing time=Faith & Confidence in them and they will realize what valuable assets they are to the team And how about that Merkin Valdez, all of our setup pitchers are playing well, At this rate we’ll have nobody to offer as trade bait a lot of other teams wish they had our problems. Dodgers here we come! I tell you when other teams see up on the schedule , they’ll cringe
by hoseby50 on May 31, 2009 5:01 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Keep playing our youngsters?
Outside of Manny (who has McC split 50:50 on his potential) and Pablo, we’re not playing any prospect.
by SeeingStars on May 31, 2009 5:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
do we have a lot of prospects who are rotting on the bench?
by FluLikeSymptoms on May 31, 2009 5:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well there’s that one guy we affectionately call who.
by SeeingStars on May 31, 2009 5:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
who?
I'm pretty much a professional lurk.
by BasqueDuck on May 31, 2009 7:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
As of today, I have officially jumped off the Sanchez bandwagon. I still lament the way the Giants jerked him around in the past, but at some point he needs to get past that and get straightened out. Oh, and locate his pitches better.
Sergio Romo: striking out professional hitters since 2005. And winner of the 2012 NL Fireman of the Year Award!
by Lyle on May 31, 2009 5:25 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Check out what Randy Johnson was doing when he was 26 years old.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/j/johnsra05.shtml
and Jamie Moyer: http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/m/moyerja01.shtml
and David Wells: http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/w/wellsda01.shtml
and Kenny Rogers: http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/r/rogerke01.shtml
and Warren Spahn: http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/s/spahnwa01.shtml
and Ron Guidry: http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/g/guidrro01.shtml
I could probably find more, but you get the point—-many of these guys only figured it out in their late 20s, and often didn’t do it in their rookie season. Where they are available, check out the minor league numbers that these guys put up before being recalled. Lots of walks and inconsistency. Perhaps you could make the “they were freaks of nature” argument, but again, there are a lot of guys like this.
Maybe he is unlikely to figure it all out and all I am doing is creating a good pitch for us when we try to trade Sanchez, but the fact is that, for some reason, it often takes lefties with great stuff longer to figure it all out.
Merkin Valdez? Manuel Mateo? A rose by any other name...
by rotorueter on May 31, 2009 5:31 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
i agree
and it’s not like Sanchez is holding us back from competing in a pennant race. We really don’t have any reason not to be patient with him.
by superk1ng on May 31, 2009 5:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sure we do
He needs to improve control/command and should do this in AAA.
by wilriv21 on May 31, 2009 5:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
why?
He pitches well enough to be a fifth starter. We certainly don’t have anyone better in AAA. Let the kid work out his problems in the bigs.
Randy Winn is going to catch that. And he'll do it real classy-like too.
by oldjacket on May 31, 2009 7:51 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He taxes the bullpen and does not give his team enough chance to win. Pitchers with command problems should work them out in the minors The Giants are 3.5 back in the wild card race. The Giants were very fortunate the bullpen picked him up again otherwise we would all be calling Sanchez the goat of this game.
Other options available could be Kevin Pucetas and Bill Sadler. Both are on the 40-man roster and would give their team no worse of a chance for victory.
by wilriv21 on May 31, 2009 7:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s not like we’re seriously contending for a playoff spot this year. I don’t have a problem with him “working things out” in the ML.
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by Natto on May 31, 2009 8:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
sure we is wild card 3.5 games back
by wilriv21 on May 31, 2009 10:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sadler has not solved his control problems in AAA, and Pucetas has struggled there as well.
Randy Winn is going to catch that. And he'll do it real classy-like too.
by oldjacket on May 31, 2009 8:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
There is no way that Pucetas or Sadler will pitch better than Sanchez has.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on May 31, 2009 8:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sanchez 2009 Major League ERA: 4.75
Pucetas MLE: 4.87
Sadler MLE: 4.75
Sanchez has better stuff than both of them/more ability to get the K (wayyy better than Pucetas and better than Sadler). Pucetas has better command and Sadler is just as bad w/ walks as Jonathan.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on May 31, 2009 10:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
same ERA and just as bad with walks?
Sanchez = Sadler
by wilriv21 on Jun 1, 2009 12:30 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No
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by Natto on Jun 1, 2009 12:45 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sadler probably has worse control than Sanchez.
Randy Winn is going to catch that. And he'll do it real classy-like too.
by oldjacket on Jun 1, 2009 6:54 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sadler has the same ERA in TRIPLE-A.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on Jun 1, 2009 7:47 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
FUN FACT: A 4.75 ERA is fine for a fifth starter!
It’s true!
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by groug on Jun 1, 2009 12:52 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're forgetting
MATT KINNEY!!! Put him on the board!!!
by FireBrianSabean on Jun 1, 2009 11:35 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
What about Pat Misch???
/shows self out
by Bay Area Sports Guy on Jun 1, 2009 2:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wow, I did a great job reading the next post by LargeFarva. I’m going to go drink an entire bottle of maple syrup and grow a mustache.
by Bay Area Sports Guy on Jun 1, 2009 2:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
meow?
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
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by zenbitz on Jun 1, 2009 3:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
CHICKENFUCKERS!
Oh, that was inappropriate.
Joe Martinez: My fingers are crossed and my palms are together for you.
When it's all said and done, America will be remembered for three things: The Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
by cornball on Jun 2, 2009 6:00 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree
Plus, I am not sure he has the mental toughness to be able to deal with a demotion to Triple A. Keep him in the bigs, let him iron stuff out, and be patient. Or would you rather see Misch?
Robby Thompson "hey Hinshaw, let me see your hat for a minute."
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Robby Thompson ,"You'll see...."
by LargeFarva on May 31, 2009 10:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Umm
Other then Jamie Moyer, nobody you listed here really struggled all that badly.
Spahn went to war and when he came back was great. Guidry’s first actual season he won 16 games. Rogers and Wells worked out of the pen when they made the majors but did ok, and eventually became innings eater guys. And Randy Johnson didn’t exactly struggle other then with the walks. His stuff was untouchable. He won his first 3 ML starts. And did well after being traded to Seattle in 89 for Mark Langston, and threw a no-hitter and made the all-star team in 1990.
All of these guys are better than Sanchez is right now even at the same age IMO. Except for Moyer that is.
by Hobbes2d on Jun 1, 2009 12:49 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was gonna say the same thing — not sure what the purpose of this list is. But as Spahn was his league’s best pitcher at age 26 (in his first full year) I’d definitely pick him as the one I’d most like to see Sanchez resemble.
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by Roger on Jun 1, 2009 8:06 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I haven't really looked at the others
But Randy Johnson is a lot closer than you might think, at the same age. Sure, RJ was posting ERA’s under 4.00 in his age 26 and age 27 seasons. But those seasons came in a time when scoring was about half a lower, per game, than it is in the last few seasons. This must be taken into account.
Look at the K/BB ratios. Except for this season (which shows Sanchez’s real problem this year: the walks) Sanchez’s K/BB ratios were better than RJ’s at the same age. It wasn’t until RJ solved the walk problem that he started taking off. The same will happen with Sanchez (if he can).
And this isn’t even really taking into account the crappy way Sanchez was treated by the Giants.
"Catcher are base running. Hitters are offense."
Only [hella] games left until the end of Zito's [no, make that Rowand's] contract.
Adoptive father of "Poncho" Villalona: This Angel don't fly. Nothing about him is light.
by thehavenot on Jun 1, 2009 11:49 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Stop!! This fanpost is hurting Sanchez' trade value
Proud new dad of Edgardo errr Edgar Renteria!!!
by rxmeister on May 31, 2009 5:40 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
The thing with Sanchez is we aren’t going to be able to trade him for anything unless he starts realizing his potential, which would make him the type of player we don’t want to trade. We have to keep running him out there to see if he can improve, because frankly, we don’t have a better #5 option, so there’s no real downside to it. Upside – he improves and becomes tradeable/valuable. Downside – he pitches as poorly as any other #5 pitcher we run out there would (at least until Bumgardner/Alderson are ready), but if he does that it’s not like we’re passing up the opportunity to trade him for a good hitter…
by Missing Barry on May 31, 2009 7:12 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I believe you’re requires to cite The Jonathan Sanchez Paradox, copyright 2009 by Grant Brisbee every time you mention or describe the Jonathan Sanchez Paradox (copyright 2009 by Grant Brisbee).
Meet my new son: Sundrendy Windster, coming soon to a minor league near you.
by EliminateMe on Jun 1, 2009 10:24 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
i think that we are stuck with him for the rest of this year. He’s not good enough to get us an upgrade in the infield than we already have. Maybe after this year, but he will not be traded this season
by lehmsbobby on May 31, 2009 7:37 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
When he's good, he's very very good.
But I think he never seems to be in good shape by the 5th inning. Let alone the 6th. He just has no cruise control.
I would seriously consider converting him back to a reliever – 7th/8th inning set up man every 2-3 days. But I guess let him finish out the season as a starter, since it’s not like we a have a good option to replace him.
I don’t think we should trade him, unless someone really has a huge hard on for him, and gives up too much.
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
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by zenbitz on May 31, 2009 7:50 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I think everybody overstates how much his trade value correlates with his performance
of course it matters somewhat how he pitches, but there is not this 1 to 1 correlation that everybody seems to think there is. The other MLB clubs are capable of looking beyond his 2009 stats and seeing the youth and potential he still possesses. In addition, we constantly see in all sports that every team always thinks they will be better at managing a talent, or be able to get the most of somebody (the best example that comes to mind is Rick Peterson’s famous proclamation that he could have Victor Zambrano turned around in 10 minutes).
by FluLikeSymptoms on May 31, 2009 8:00 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Well think about it this way – if we trade Sanchez for a hitter, an equal trade will be a hitter with potential that hasn’t managed to turn it into consistent major league level performance yet. That’s what Sanchez is worth, because that’s exactly what he is (except pitcher version).
by Missing Barry on May 31, 2009 8:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Brandon Wood?
I am Cameron Wood and this is my son and business partner CW Culberson.
by camwoody on May 31, 2009 10:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would probably make that trade, if we also got a good, young (ie, A-ball) prospect in the package. The Angels need starters. It makes sense.
Joe Martinez: My fingers are crossed and my palms are together for you.
When it's all said and done, America will be remembered for three things: The Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
by cornball on Jun 1, 2009 8:16 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
So you’re saying if we give the Angles a Dirty Sanchez, we’ll get Wood?
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by Goofus on Jun 1, 2009 10:31 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If the Angels are willing. But unfortunately, Wood wouldn’t fill the hole left by Johnson’s eventual departure.
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by neurofarm on Jun 1, 2009 1:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah But Johnson's eventual departure
Can easily be filled by available FA talent ;)
by FairweatherFan on Jun 2, 2009 8:17 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good point
Pull the big unit out of there and that hole is gaping. You can just insert any old Johnson in there and expect to fill it.
My adopted Giant: "Raptor Jesus" Guzman
by Goofus on Jun 2, 2009 10:06 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Music at Stadium
By the way, do any of you guys know the Giants celebration song after a win at home? It has "Whoo-hoo" in it. But I can’t name it. If someone can give me Rowand’s walk up music and/or the Giants one, it’ll be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
by sharpness609 on May 31, 2009 10:23 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
“Song #2” by Blur
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by Natto on May 31, 2009 10:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Isn’t this every teams celebration song?
by positiveuphemism on Jun 1, 2009 4:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I dunno, but the A’s use “Celebration” by Kool & the Gang.
Judgment Day is coming
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by Natto on Jun 1, 2009 5:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I look forward to your next thought provoking question.
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by WalrusMan on Jun 1, 2009 5:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Who knows what his ceiling is? I think it reasonable to think a full year in the rotation allows him to learn how to eliminate some of his control issues, and that means a pretty damn good pitcher. Next year the rotation is without Johnson and will be crying out for such a pitcher, so I don’t see trading him for a rent-a-player or low level prospects. As part of a trade for the right impact player in the off season? That makes sense. Anything else (other than the Giants rotation or in one of the very limited number of impact player trades) would be a waste of his talent.
by Sayhey on Jun 1, 2009 9:02 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Since it would leave two holes in the rotation to fill if we assume Johnson moves along, I’d be reluctant to trade him unless we could get more than I think he’ll bring back.
My adopted Giant: "Raptor Jesus" Guzman
by Goofus on Jun 1, 2009 10:28 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Sanchez is going to end up in the bullpen, simply because this team has too many up and coming starters to keep him in the rotation. That said, right now he is a viable #5 starter and if he EVER gets decent control he could be seen as a #2 or #3 starter, especially depending on the pitching staff (hell, right now he’d probably be #3 on the Mets).
Trading him is a good idea if we get something we need: a power bat. And we should definitely make it known that he is available; the bullpen is pitching crazy good right now, and should continue to be good for the rest of the year. But unless we get an established ML starter, he should stay; Sanchez’ ceiling is insanely high, but he has the same control problems that plagued guys like Randy Johnson early in their careers (there’s a good article about RJ’s early years in the Chronicle). Once (if) he gets over that, he’s got a pretty wicked set of pitches, and even decent control makes him an excellent pitcher.
Should we consider trading him? Definitely. But only if we get something worthwhile, because Sanchez has the potential to be one of the best left-handers in the game.
by quincy0191 on Jun 1, 2009 3:52 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I think he's meh right now
But I have hope that he’ll harness his good stuff and become solid.
Or maybe he’ll get his ERA down really low and Sabean can trade him for a quality infielder.
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
If Dustin Pedroia played in Seattle, not many people would be talking about him.
by baetown415 on Jun 1, 2009 6:44 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
He's a good 5th starter...
I don’t see him as much more than that.
by AmorVincitOmnia on Jun 1, 2009 9:05 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
He's better than a good 5th starter
a good 5th starter is someone who consistently gives you a sub 5 ERA performance.
Sanchez is a guy who can’t get out of the 5th inning one start, but will toss 8 innings of scoreless ball w/ 10 strikeouts the next.
It’s really like gambling, because when he’s on – he’s nearly as good as anyone on the staff. When he is off he’s bad.
And when he is on, your team has an excellent chance to win that day, which is more than you can say about most 5th starters.
When he is off, you hope the bullpen is there (like Sunday).
by FairweatherFan on Jun 2, 2009 8:20 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
A fifth starter who consistently gives you a sub 5 ERA performance would perhaps constitute the best fifth starter in baseball. The aggregate performance of ML fifth starters is worse than you think it is.
Merkin Valdez? Manuel Mateo? A rose by any other name...
by rotorueter on Jun 2, 2009 8:36 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would love to see the aggregate numbers of the 5th starters in baseball. Is that available?
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by Goofus on Jun 2, 2009 10:06 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
From about three years ago but still probably pretty close
Average 5th starter ERA is 6.24 in the MLB according to that study.
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by jponry on Jun 2, 2009 10:13 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Also, check this out. It’s based on tRA+
http://www.lookoutlanding.com/2008/9/23/618821/rotation-slots-in-reality
AVERAGES. (based on 2007 and 2008 data)
#1 STARTERS: 130 tRA+
#2 STARTERS: 112 tRA+
#3 STARTERS: 100 tRA+
#4 STARTERS: 91 tRA+
#5 STARTERS: 76 tRA+
MARKERS.
These represent the breakpoints between each slot. For example, between a 95 and a 106 tRA+ would be rated as a #3 starter. Below 86 and you’re a #5, above a 118 and you’re a #1.
1 — 2 BARRIER: 118 tRA+
2 — 3 BARRIER: 106 tRA+
3 — 4 BARRIER: 95 tRA+
4 — 5 BARRIER: 86 tRA+
Sanchez has a 94 tRA+ right now, which is a borderline #3.
by xanthan on Jun 2, 2009 10:14 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’ll add that I think generally referring to starters as a [number] starter isn’t very informative or helpful.
by xanthan on Jun 2, 2009 10:16 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think it can be helpful because it’s an easy baseline to assess how many pitchers out there are better/worse than said pitcher, and how easy it is to acquire a pitcher of the same or better production.
by Missing Barry on Jun 2, 2009 10:49 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
they should
have compared this analysis to the “classical” definition of
all #1s = #1 tRA on each team
all #2s = #2 tRA on each team
I would guess that would collapse the endpoints a little, as teams with good pitching staffs will have some decent #5 starts and bad ones will have terrible #1s.
Not saying this method is better, but I think it’s useful to have both.
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
-------
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by zenbitz on Jun 2, 2009 11:37 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Where do I find the rest of our rotation’s tRA+?
My adopted Giant: "Raptor Jesus" Guzman
by Goofus on Jun 2, 2009 2:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
We had a big discussion about this last year
Where I tried to argue the value of Zito and Correia.
I do however think a more valuable breakdown would be the tRA by slot of teams with 500 or better records.
by FairweatherFan on Jun 2, 2009 3:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I fully realize how bad they are, as a group
Remember I was the guy arguing last year that Zito was a great 5th starter and frankly a pretty good 4th.
by FairweatherFan on Jun 2, 2009 3:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sanchez is barely averaging 5 innings a start
by wilriv21 on Jun 2, 2009 12:48 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
This
Plus pretty much any 5th starter is awful, but they’re also capable of the occasional good game, JUST like Sanchez. Just because Sanchez has better stuff then most of them doesn’t make him better if his performances are about the same.
by Hobbes2d on Jun 2, 2009 3:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
except with great stuff there is always room for improvement. If Jonny Fifthstarter has fringey stuff, there is no room for improvement.
by tyrannoman on Jun 2, 2009 7:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No
Didn’t you see Hobbes comment upthread? Sanchez has NO room for improvement.
"Catcher are base running. Hitters are offense."
Only [hella] games left until the end of Zito's [no, make that Rowand's] contract.
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by thehavenot on Jun 2, 2009 8:51 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
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