Scouting the Sally - Charlie Culberson, INF, SF
Charlie Culberson (2-5) - A former supplemental first round draft pick, Charlie Culberson began 2008 in Augusta with high hopes. After a .234/.290/.319 season which left many wondering what the Giants saw in Culberson to begin with, he enters the 2009 season repeating the Sally League in what the Giants hope will be his coming out party. After watching him play, I'm not sure a breakout is coming anytime soon.
- Solid, compact build; Looked shorter than 6'1"; May have been due to solid build; Not much room for additional growth
- Thick through the lower half; Quickness to play shortstop in doubt
- Listed as SS; Played 3B in this game which is surprising considering his lack of power
- Misplayed slow ground ball at third
- Short, level swing; Average bat speed; Will struggle to generate power
- Grounded out weakly to 3rd base his first at bat
- Gap to gap hitter; A couple of hard hit balls to left center field
- Solid approach; Could tell he was trying to work counts after his first at bat
Overall, Culberson was a little better than I thought he would be. Reports I had read previously were in the bad to worse range, so I honestly was not expecting much. While he will likely never be an everyday big leaguer, I can see him filling a utility role on a major league club. However, his playing third base was concerning because he just doesn't have the bat for a corner. If he's already been labeled a tweener at twenty, he's going to have a very tough time salvaging whatever prospect status he has left. Especially if he loses another step has he progresses and can no longer play shortstop in a pinch.
I wonder what the Giants were thinking when they drafted Culberson so high. I understand hindsight is 20/20, but drafted shortly after Culberson were Kyle Lotzkar, Nick Hagadone, and Jordan Zimmermann. With pitching being the Giants bread and butter, passing on a number of high upside talents to draft a seemingly limited Culberson just doesn't make much sense.
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Comments
This is the same draft that produced Jackson Williams for the Giants, whom I think is still overrated. Sorry wil. If you want to come at me, I’ll be waiting around back with a broken glass bottle and we can settle this once and for all.
My point: Culberson probably will go down as another grossly overrated pick. Sucks, because I was behind him last season. It’s still early, but he’s showing no signs of improvement on defense yet.
"While conservatives tell you 'leave things alone and no one will lose,' and liberals tell you 'interfere a lot and no one will lose,' baseball says 'someone will lose.' Not only says it - but insists upon it! ... Democracy is lovely, but baseball's more mature." BVCE supports SF Dugout and Manny Burriss.
by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Apr 24, 2009 5:40 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
that entire draft after the first two picks (and maybe even after the first, since we picked alderson over porcello) was full of bad draft choices
Also known to haunt as theghostoftravisdenker and theaccidentalghostofsergioromo.
by theghostofjasonellison on Apr 24, 2009 6:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Mike Loree has already done more than the average 50th rounder can ever hope to do.
Never has a poster been more correct in the history of the internet. Ever! - ResDog on yours truly
Adopted Giant: Fred "Ruthless Aggression" Lewis
by jcb9 on Apr 24, 2009 7:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I remember epic threads deriding those picks as well.
When you’re right, you’re right.
Meaning that I was right, in case that wasn’t clear.
Also, Jackson Williams is rated?
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
by Bhaakon on Apr 24, 2009 10:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You were right, I was right…several of us were. It is nice to hear it from an outside (or maybe just new) source, though. I would have preferred Hagadone, so maybe Zimmerman would have been a better choice (so far). Either way, Culberson and Williams deserve a special place in Sabean’s heart, as he slowly twists in the wind.
Sergio Romo: striking out professional hitters since 2005. And winner of the 2012 NL Fireman of the Year Award!
by Lyle on Apr 25, 2009 7:55 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Would that be his own?
Would that be in his own wind that he just passed?
by sharksrog on Apr 25, 2009 11:37 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's a nice thought
Rog, I’m reminded of a comedy bit I read somewhere, which said that So-and-so was hung in Effigy, which is a small town outside Chicago.
Sergio Romo: striking out professional hitters since 2005. And winner of the 2012 NL Fireman of the Year Award!
by Lyle on Apr 25, 2009 12:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hits exceeding errors?
With his move from shortstop to third base, are Charlie’s hits now exceeding his error total? I believe it took him close to two months last season to accomplish that feat.
by sharksrog on Apr 24, 2009 10:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He has 11 hits and at last count, he has eight errors. Yeesh.
"While conservatives tell you 'leave things alone and no one will lose,' and liberals tell you 'interfere a lot and no one will lose,' baseball says 'someone will lose.' Not only says it - but insists upon it! ... Democracy is lovely, but baseball's more mature." BVCE supports SF Dugout and Manny Burriss.
by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Apr 24, 2009 11:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s hard to say that Williams is overrated, since, except for Baggs and wilriv, nobody really expects him to become anything.
Adoptive parent of Noah Lowry. Because he was awesome once, and, goddammit, he shall be awesome once again!
I hope.
by Cookyman on Apr 25, 2009 2:17 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I did on draft day and through most of his first year.
"While conservatives tell you 'leave things alone and no one will lose,' and liberals tell you 'interfere a lot and no one will lose,' baseball says 'someone will lose.' Not only says it - but insists upon it! ... Democracy is lovely, but baseball's more mature." BVCE supports SF Dugout and Manny Burriss.
by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Apr 26, 2009 10:35 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's not
It’s not that Jackson is overrated; it’s that he’s underskilled.
by sharksrog on Apr 26, 2009 4:51 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why ALL the Jackson Williams hate?
He is very skilled defensive catcher. He is developing and improving each season. He has improved as he climbs up the ladder. Baggs gave the kid a glowing report from the instrucx last season and he has built on it at the AA level.
Williams gives the Giants depth, options and versatility for the organization. Keep hacking, Jacks!
by wilriv21 on Apr 26, 2009 5:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Skilled indeed
Jackson is indeed a skilled defensive catcher, almost certainly the best in that regard in the entire organization. But I don’t think he’s going to hit enough to become anything more than a backup. He was drafted high enough (#43 overall?) that one might expect more.
As for his building on his intructional league success, I wouldn’t call a .689 OPS building too much.
The one thing that Jackson does have going for him is that he’s still just 22 years old until next month. But while Jackson was drafted nearly as high as Conor Gillaspie, I don’t think many, if any, of us consider Jackson to be as good a prospect as Conor. At this point I don’t consider Jackson to be as good a prospect as Brandon Crawford, draffted in the fourth round a season after Williams.
Jackson’s defense is probably good enough to get him into a backup role eventually, but I doubt he will ever have much impact. I would love to be wrong.
As a left-handed hitter, Adam Witter might make a better complement to Buster Posey. Then again, Witter is 26 years old and hasn’t set the world on fire with his hitting. But Adam does get on base and has some pop.
Switch-hitting Michael Ambort, presently the DH for San Jose, was drafted well after Wiliams, but might also become a better complement to Buster if he regains his arm strength after a previous injury.
Assuming Buster becomes the good defensive catcher the Giants believe he will be, as another right-handed hitter, Williams doesn’t form a good complement. If they become good enough to play in the majors, either Witter or Ambort might.
If the Giants retain Pablo Sandoval and use him as their primary backup backstop, I think Williams’ defense might make him a decent candidate for the #3 catcher. If Williams himself can make a noticeable improvement in his hitting, he could indeed become valuable as a backup catcher. As might be the case with Sandoval, though, Williams’ greatest value could come from a trade.
by sharksrog on Apr 26, 2009 6:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks rog
You put it much better than I can.
"While conservatives tell you 'leave things alone and no one will lose,' and liberals tell you 'interfere a lot and no one will lose,' baseball says 'someone will lose.' Not only says it - but insists upon it! ... Democracy is lovely, but baseball's more mature." BVCE supports SF Dugout and Manny Burriss.
by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Apr 26, 2009 6:50 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't know
I don’t know about THAT, but thank YOU!
By the way, Buster went 3-for-4 today and drove in four runs — but the Little Giants still lost 11-8 to High Desert. Buster DH’d and had a homer and a double in his first two at bats.
Jackson himself went 2-for-4, both singles, in Connecticut’s amazing 20-15 win over Portland. Portland scored 5 runs in the first and 10 in the sixth to take a 15-12 lead, but the Defenders roared back with 7 runs in the eighth and another tally in the ninth.
Danny Otero preserved the win with two scoreless innings, leaving him unscored upon in his 6.1 frames over six appearances. Danny was hoping to improve his change up over the winter, figuring his future at the big league level might be as a long reliever. Danny has been successful so far in his minor league career, relying on a nasty breaking ball and pinpoint control.
by sharksrog on Apr 26, 2009 7:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I like Otero and I’m hoping he can show us something in CT and Fresno.
"While conservatives tell you 'leave things alone and no one will lose,' and liberals tell you 'interfere a lot and no one will lose,' baseball says 'someone will lose.' Not only says it - but insists upon it! ... Democracy is lovely, but baseball's more mature." BVCE supports SF Dugout and Manny Burriss.
by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Apr 27, 2009 4:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
So does this mean no knife fight?
"While conservatives tell you 'leave things alone and no one will lose,' and liberals tell you 'interfere a lot and no one will lose,' baseball says 'someone will lose.' Not only says it - but insists upon it! ... Democracy is lovely, but baseball's more mature." BVCE supports SF Dugout and Manny Burriss.
by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Apr 26, 2009 6:50 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
“Keep hacking” is a funny way to put it, because if Williams can be said to have any offensive value at all, it comes from his ability to draw walks.
Never has a poster been more correct in the history of the internet. Ever! - ResDog on yours truly
Adopted Giant: Fred "Ruthless Aggression" Lewis
by jcb9 on Apr 27, 2009 10:38 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Showing them off today
Already 2 errors in tonights game
by Splash Down on Apr 24, 2009 5:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I say we develop him into a pinch-hitter.
by xanthan on Apr 24, 2009 5:51 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm sure GIANTS BRASS is torn
Low average, lack of power = Giant’s way
Attempt to work counts =/= Giant’s way
by Splash Down on Apr 24, 2009 5:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Still close
If Charlie has 10 errors on the season, he still has only 11 hits, so once again the race between his hits and errors is on!
by sharksrog on Apr 25, 2009 5:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
How’s his arm?
Perhaps Culberson will one day toe the rubber in The City.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on Apr 24, 2009 5:52 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Another Candidate?
plenty of room to add to list. Has he toed the rubber before?
by wilriv21 on Apr 24, 2009 6:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Never has a poster been more correct in the history of the internet. Ever! - ResDog on yours truly
Adopted Giant: Fred "Ruthless Aggression" Lewis
by jcb9 on Apr 24, 2009 6:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Toe the rubber, Charlie
Charles Culberson, SS, Calhoun HS (GA)
Height/Weight: 6-1, 185 | DOB: 4/10/89
Calhoun High School produced two picks in the supplemental round: Culberson and teammate Josh Smoker, who was selected by the Washington Nationals at 32. The duo led their team to the Class AA state baseball finals. Culberson was the No. 2 pitcher and played shortstop when not on the mound. He hit a ton this spring, batting over .500 with 16 HR, including 6 in the postseason
by wilriv21 on Apr 25, 2009 12:48 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Who exactly had high hopes for Culberson last year? I’ve never met ’em.
Never has a poster been more correct in the history of the internet. Ever! - ResDog on yours truly
Adopted Giant: Fred "Ruthless Aggression" Lewis
by jcb9 on Apr 24, 2009 6:18 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
The Culberson pick was odd on draft day, and it’s not looking good two years later.
by Dan from NM on Apr 24, 2009 10:21 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Not a hitter
Charlie didn’t look like a hitter on his draft video. He appeared to have a ceiling no higher than a utility infielder even back then.
by sharksrog on Apr 24, 2009 10:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I honestly have heard from scouts...
…that even if the Giants didn’t grab him, he wouldn’t have lasted through the supplemental round.
The Giants were not the only team high on him.
SFDugout.com is BACK! See the Top 50 Giants Prospects!
by BruteSentiment on Apr 25, 2009 2:21 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Giants were not the only team high.
Randy Winn is going to catch that. And he'll do it real classy-like too.
by oldjacket on Apr 25, 2009 7:39 AM PDT up reply actions 3 recs
Now that response deserves to be in green! Yay, Mr. Samuelson.
Sergio Romo: striking out professional hitters since 2005. And winner of the 2012 NL Fireman of the Year Award!
by Lyle on Apr 25, 2009 7:57 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Goes to show
Goes to show how bad scouts are. :)
More realistically, it demonstrates how difficult scouting is.
by sharksrog on Apr 25, 2009 11:40 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
yes, that second thing.
If you give someone a task that’s really hard to do, most of the time they will fail at doing it.
Randy Winn is going to catch that. And he'll do it real classy-like too.
by oldjacket on Apr 25, 2009 1:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
The lack of success in finding good players even as early as the top picks overall in the first round (less than half became good players from my study; by the end of the first round, it’s worse than trying to roll a 5 with a pair of dice) shows how many variables there are in developing players who are good starters, variables that scouting is not yet able to discern with a very high degree of accuracy.
Let’s take Jackson Williams, for example (since he was discussed before). It is common for people to bash him but he hit .344/.426/.525/.951 in his last season in college, and was a .300 hitter in college, and while not great at avoiding the strikeouts, he was OK at taking walks, very good one season. Yet, it was obvious to scouts that he wasn’t going to hit for much in the professional ranks, so the scouts knew.
What they also noted was that he is an excellent catcher. That’s why the Giants drafted him, I believe, for his defense. He was so good, he was already calling pitches in the college ranks, a very rare thing in college.
Who knew we would get Posey the next year? Finding a catcher who would be ready to take over for Molina was paramount, and frankly, the only way you are going to find a good offensive catcher would be 1) drafting in the top 5 and 2) there being a top offensive catcher to draft. That’s pretty rare and yet we had two top ones in a row, Weiters then Posey. Plus there is a young catcher in high school who is already acknowledged as the top pick for the 2011 draft. Still, with that rareness (and Posey raised himself to Top 5 status in 2008, he was not there when the 2007 draft was going on and Jackson Williams selected), selecting a great defensive catcher, I think, is a good alternative to hoping you land the jackpot with your high draft pick.
Culberson, however, I didn’t see the sense of it then or now. If he was a defensive whiz, then I could see it, much like Williams. But the scouting reports on him was that he was an overdraft and apparently drafted because he would be gone before the Giants next pick, many rounds later. And it was no sure thing he would stick at SS, though greater than with Noonan. Now that I see that he was a great pitcher in high school, up there with Smoker, I can see the Giants figuring to give him a shot at SS, and if he fizzles there, they can move him over to pitcher, much like another failed SS, Joe Nathan. Still, not good enough reason for me, considering the other choices still out there at that time.
Because, really, once you get this deep into the draft (and it’s not really that deep, but just that hard to find a good player), you are talking about lottery tickets in terms of chances of making it as a good starter (and not much better chance of being a useful, journeyman player). So I imagine that there is a lot of guts selections, based on one particular feature or another of that player.
It feels nice to say that Gillaspie and Crawford are better picks, but the ying and yang of that is that they were both considered first round material going into the season, that they had the talent to be drafted that high, and yet the vast majority of teams passed on them, particularly Crawford multiple times, so there were obviously issues that caused them to fall that far into the draft.
And really, as much as I love Bill Mueller as a player and a Giant, do you really think it’s a jackpot to add a Bill Mueller to the lineup? That he is a difference maker? And for all the complaints about the lack of power we have on the corners, Gillaspie is only going to add to that long string of lack of power.
And Crawford, well, I don’t know how many times I’ve seen a young player do well out the chute only to collapse later or simply float back down to Earth. I’m excited, don’t get me wrong, but he’s only in Advanced A ball after screwing up a $1M+ payday with his play in 2008. Yes, young people make mistakes and they can recover from it, but he’ll have to do more than a month of nice hitting to show to me that he’s grown from that experience.
Adoptive parental unit of Ehire Adrianza.
Godfather of Travis Ishikawa.
"I'm really proud to be on this team." - Nate Schierholtz
"Woo hoo" - Tim "The Kid" Lincecum
"Let's go get them in 2009!" - The Kid
by obsessivegiantscompulsive on Apr 28, 2009 9:31 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Charlie Culberson
is a great baseball name… for the dead ball era.
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
-------
PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game currently in early planning stages.
by zenbitz on Apr 25, 2009 9:13 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Paraphrasing
To paraphrase Lon Simmons, don’t say dead balls to an older person.
by sharksrog on Apr 25, 2009 5:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Given that the Giants chose Bumgarner and Alderson
I think the answer is pretty evident there: their scouts didn’t agree on the potential of those pitchers.
And it is nice 20/20 hindsight as well. Both of the prospect books after Zimmerman was drafted thought he was a mid-rotation pitcher, at best a #3 starter. While nice, that’s not a player you build off of when re-building a team. But he continued to develop and now could be a top rotation guy, a #2.
You can always find some player who a team should have picked. The most well-known story is of how the Dodgers traded one of the best catchers in MLB history, Mike Piazza, past the 50th round (when most teams have stopped drafting), as a favor to Tommy Lasorda, as the Piazza’s were a friend of his family, if I recall correctly. But that goes for just about any pick you want to complain about in any draft, with the odds so poor in finding a good starting player, the good ones stick out like a sore thumb. But if they were so good in the first place, why did that team draft another, now lesser player, earlier, risking losing that player.
For example, the A’s passed on Huston Street with multiple picks who haven’t done as much as Street has, yet if they were so smart in selecting him in the first place, why didn’t they pick him first instead of risking losing him? Because, like every other team, there were question marks that made that particularly player fall that far in the first place. Only because he solved those question marks while the other players didn’t makes him stand out.
Thus, if you are going to argue over who should have been selected over whom (and in evaluating trades, while I’m at it), you also need to take into context the situation the way it was when the decision was made, not how it looks in retrospect, when further information that would chance the decision comes into play.
Thus, I see why Jackson Williams was selected, he was considered a very good defensive catcher, skilled enough to already be calling pitches on his own, and we needed one for the future. In Culberson’s case, while we needed a SS, his offensive abilities were considered a big question mark, though there was some hope. One of my prospect books noted that he’s “athletic with excellent instincts that allow tools to play up. Bat speed and aggressive approach produces moderate power, but lacks plate discipline which will make BA inconsistent.” The other (BA) ranked him our 14th best prospect, just behind Clayton Tanner and Mike McBryde and ahead of Waldis Joaquin, Osirus Matos, and Jackson Williams, in 2008.
Oh, and about Williams, BA noted in 2008: “… the Giants are captivated by his skills behind the plate and think he’ll be a big leaguer if they can make him just a serviceable hitter. As a bonus, his first pro manager at Salem-Keizer happened to be former big league catcher Steve Decker, who knew he was watching something special the first time Williams threw to second base. He has a slightly above-average arm but his lightening-quick release helps him get a pop time consistently below 1.95 seconds on throws to second base. He was able to control the running without pitchers even bothering with a slide-step, leading the Northwest League by throwing out 43 percent of opposing basestealers. Williams also has terrific footwork, blocks everything in the dirt and runs well for a catcher. He works hard on his line-drive swing, has a bit of gap power and does a decent job putting the ball in play.”
This year: “There’s no doubting his Gold Glove-caliber skills behind the plate. Augusta manager Andy Skeels, who played with Sandy Alomar and Benito Santiago, said Williams has a quicker release and a more accurate arm than those two former all-stars. He threw out 45 percent of basestealers last season. He blocks balls in the dirt, keeps pitchers focused and calls a good game.”
So Williams is special defensively, the key is figuring out how to get him to hit better. Remember, also, that it usually takes catchers much longer to figure everything out and make the majors. So by the time he figures out how to hit well enough, Posey might be ready to move from C to another position to save his legs, much like Biggio did. Or Posey could be double-switching, with Williams taking C, Posey taking an infield position, for defensive purposes late in the game (say for Sandoval at 3B or perhaps someone in the OF). If need be, Posey could always move back behind the plate in case something happens to Williams and we have no other backup catcher.
Adoptive parental unit of Ehire Adrianza.
Godfather of Travis Ishikawa.
"I'm really proud to be on this team." - Nate Schierholtz
"Woo hoo" - Tim "The Kid" Lincecum
"Let's go get them in 2009!" - The Kid
by obsessivegiantscompulsive on Apr 28, 2009 10:03 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Also
Great defensive catchers should have trade value.
Adoptive parental unit of Ehire Adrianza.
Godfather of Travis Ishikawa.
"I'm really proud to be on this team." - Nate Schierholtz
"Woo hoo" - Tim "The Kid" Lincecum
"Let's go get them in 2009!" - The Kid
by obsessivegiantscompulsive on Apr 28, 2009 10:04 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

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