Hey, Sanchez, Nice start. Now grab some pine, meat.
by chacabuco on Apr 22, 2009 4:39 PM PDT
125 comments
How do you reward your young starter for his best outing of the season?
Why, skip his turn in the rotation, of course. Better yet, send his a** to the bullpen for more jacking around of his young arm.
Big Head and Suckbean strike again! These two either don't have a plan, they keep changing their plan, or they have their heads so far up their plans they can't see. It's really unbelievable if you stop to think about it.
This FanPost is reader-generated, and it does not necessarily reflect the views of McCovey Chronicles. If the author uses filler to achieve the minimum word requirement, a moderator may edit the FanPost for his or her own amusement.
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Okay, I’m not entirely pleased about this either but it’s one start. It’s not a big deal.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on Apr 22, 2009 4:41 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
5th Starters
They always skip starts. It is to make sure your top 4 get more innings and starts. Sanchez is a streaky guy, but I think he just needs a slow pace. Let the other guys pitch because they are pitching well too, yes, that includes Zito.
by gimpsta7 on Apr 22, 2009 10:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
don't remember a lot of complaints
when Fassero or Wright got skipped… it’s not Sanchez’ fault that he shouldn’t be the 5th starter
Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."
by natteringnabob on Apr 23, 2009 6:34 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ugh.
“It’s really unbelievable if you stop to think about it.”
It’s unbelievable how hard some people look for things to get upset about.
by KCE on Apr 22, 2009 4:42 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
GINAT BRASSS!!!!!!
WTF R U ALLL DUE N???
Adopted groomer for Mark Gardner's Mullet / Adopted brother of the AnVil
by SoFa King Mike on Apr 22, 2009 4:46 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
GETTING HIS TRADE VALUZ UP
MILAUKEE NEEDS PITCHING ADN WE NEED BATZZZZZZ
Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."
by natteringnabob on Apr 22, 2009 4:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
See Sanchez's July-September 2008....
….Then tell me that giving him an early break is a bad idea…
Proud supporter of the Fightin' Hydrants.
by Little Napoleon on Apr 22, 2009 4:46 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, this at least makes some sense. Skipping his turn is fine given his workload last year and he might as well get his work in in actual games where he can contribute.
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realized God doesn’t work that way, so I stole one and prayed for forgiveness. - Emo Philips
Proud father of Juan Carlos Perez. Think Albert Pujols at second.
by marcello on Apr 22, 2009 4:50 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I don't mind this
Sure it would have been better to skip Zito (regardless of how he did today). This allows Lincecum to face the Dodgers. Had Sanchez remained in the rotation for Friday, Lincecum faces Colorado instead.
by SFGuy on Apr 22, 2009 4:50 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Why is it unbelieveable that the team would want to skip Sanchez?
For all the b1tching about workload, you’d think there’d be some support for limiting the innings of the pitcher with the most health-related red flags coming into the season. Not only did he vastly increase his IP last season from his previous high while moving from relief to the rotation, he also got hurt, missed a bunch of time, and faded badly down the stretch. If Lincecum’s arm is made of porcelain, Sanchez’s is made of wet toilet paper.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
by Bhaakon on Apr 22, 2009 4:51 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
this
except the Lincecum part.
Hi, I am Johnny Disaster.
by Johnny Disaster on Apr 22, 2009 5:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nobody bitched about Jonathan’s workload last year until the very end, where everyone cried, moaned and bitched about Timmy’s from the get go. So a mid April skip is going to save Jonathan down the road, I think it has more to do to having Lincecum go against the Dodgers (trying to increase attendance) than face Colorado, who have been known to manhandle him.
Actually I was looking forward to the Colorado games, to see how Timmy would go about his game.
Krazy Krab despised in the 20th century and beloved in the 21st century. Hey it only took over 20 years, so don't give up hope.
by timmeh on Apr 22, 2009 9:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t think they need to increase attendance for Dodgers games.
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realized God doesn’t work that way, so I stole one and prayed for forgiveness. - Emo Philips
Proud father of Juan Carlos Perez. Think Albert Pujols at second.
by marcello on Apr 22, 2009 9:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
There’s no reason to pull Jonathan, he had an extra day from the first off day. The start of the rotation got a bit more. And there has been talk of the low attendance for this Dodger series since it’s during the week. (Although i have to admit my cynical side is getting the better of me.)
The during last season, the bitch session over Tim started at his rained out Dodger game, I don’t recall any bitch sessions over Jonathan before the break, but it you can reference of those threads , that would be great.
Krazy Krab despised in the 20th century and beloved in the 21st century. Hey it only took over 20 years, so don't give up hope.
by timmeh on Apr 22, 2009 11:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s the economy, forgot to mention that tiny little annoyance.
Krazy Krab despised in the 20th century and beloved in the 21st century. Hey it only took over 20 years, so don't give up hope.
by timmeh on Apr 22, 2009 11:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
To be fair to me, I always bitched about Sanchez’s workload.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Apr 22, 2009 10:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t think they are trying to increase attendance. I think they did because Tim kept missing the Dodgers last year (he did 2 appearances?).
by SFGuy on Apr 22, 2009 10:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
This
It was very frustrating
Wall-E for Best Picture 2008
McCC = McClain Chronicles
by Useful_Idiot on Apr 22, 2009 10:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m not convinced that they want to make up for last year and make entertaining matchups for fans. I would hope they’re doing it because the bums are the best team in the division and Tim gives us the best chance of beating them.
by thethrillisgone on Apr 23, 2009 7:25 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I rmember biching about his worklooad out of spring training.
Well, more dire prediction than bitching. He’d topped out at 125 IP in the minors, and spent most of the previous two seasons in the bullpen; trouble was clearly brewing.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
by Bhaakon on Apr 22, 2009 10:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
There’s a fine line between the two; but I’m sure you straddled it quite successfully. ;^)
Sergio Romo: striking out professional hitters since 2005. And winner of the 2012 NL Fireman of the Year Award!
by Lyle on Apr 23, 2009 9:13 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s partly to do with attendance, it’s partly to do with Sanchez’s workload last season.
Most of all we get to see Timmy pitch against the dodgers…with Manny. Last season the dodgers missed Lincecum except for the first and last games of the year. The first had the whole rainout/another Bochy Blunder and the last game of the season Lincecum destroyed the entire dodger lineup albeit Mannyless.
Plus having our #1,2 and 3 go against the dodgers gives us the best chance to back-sweep them and send a message that this is going to be a long season.
I think I pulled my swagger muscle...
by BawLa on Apr 23, 2009 2:25 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
FAIL
I guess it’ll be Zito-Sanchez-Cain against LA instead of Cain-Zito-Sanchez.
Time for bed
I think I pulled my swagger muscle...
by BawLa on Apr 23, 2009 2:30 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lincecum would be pitching on Tuesday or Wednesday in the LA series, depending the how many are in the rotation. Enjoy folks, I’ll be away on business.
Krazy Krab despised in the 20th century and beloved in the 21st century. Hey it only took over 20 years, so don't give up hope.
by timmeh on Apr 23, 2009 4:20 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually This Move Makes Pefect Sense To Anyone Not Looking For Something To Complain About
This move prevents the other 4 starters from having to go a whole week between starts and gets Lincecum into the home series coming up against the Dodgers. Great move by Sabean and I am sure it has been planned from the very beginning of the season when the Giants saw they were going to get 2 days off in the same week.
by giantsrainman on Apr 22, 2009 4:55 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I don’t really agree with it but it’s not a big deal at all.
by chilibean_3 on Apr 22, 2009 5:06 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Actually, I think it’s perfectly reasonable to either skip Sanchez’s spot or just have the entire rotation get an extra day of rest. Huh, there really is no reason to be upset about this.
by chilibean_3 on Apr 22, 2009 5:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
if you wanted an awful post to compete with wcw’s from yesterday then you accomplished that
by FluLikeSymptoms on Apr 22, 2009 5:08 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Nice.
That’s a constructive reply. Great going.
Other thoughts:
A. What should the front office be trying to accomplish here, protect Sanchez from having a late season collapse or see if the dude can pitch for a full season in the major leagues?
B. Suppose you want to give the guy an early season rest, why would you have him available to pitch out of the bullpen? (Yada yada, side work, yada yada. If your goal is to see how he develops, you wouldn’t treat him like this. This is how you would treat a guy like Russ Ortiz.)
C. The Giants aren’t going to win anything this year. They are best served by focusing on their young players and seeing who can cut it and who can’t and then responding accordingly.
by chacabuco on Apr 22, 2009 5:15 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
A. Either. Both.
B. Technically, they’re treating him a lot like Johan Santana.
C. Then they should be carefully building up Sanchez’s arm strength, perhaps by strategically resting him throughout the season when it does not hurt the team so that he can get in many more effective innings at the end of the year with less of a risk of injury.
GROUGTHINK ALERT
Chatterbalks dot com: Still with jokes. Now with updates.
by groug on Apr 22, 2009 5:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I love that PhilliesNation.com put $190 together to sponsor Johann Santana’s page with “HAHAHAHAHA – The Mets are a joke!!!”.
by FPTV on Apr 22, 2009 5:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
We should sponsor Russell Martin’s page with a simple “Suck it, Russell Martin.”
Judgment Day is coming
comics | art | Nattowear
by Natto on Apr 22, 2009 5:51 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh we totally should
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
by Viliphied on Apr 22, 2009 5:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hairston?
Let’s get serious.
Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."
by natteringnabob on Apr 22, 2009 6:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No one but us would see that though
proud father of the newly acquired Brandon Crawford..
by Azmanz on Apr 22, 2009 7:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually, that might be funnier. Some random Padre fan decides to check Hairston stats and gets a WTF moment.
Judgment Day is coming
comics | art | Nattowear
by Natto on Apr 22, 2009 7:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
probably cheaper too
the schlemiel
Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."
by natteringnabob on Apr 22, 2009 8:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
somebody already does?
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/h/hairssc01.shtml
loser
Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."
by natteringnabob on Apr 22, 2009 8:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Someone did but it expires on April 24, 2009.
by SFGuy on Apr 22, 2009 10:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Or, “And you thought Paul LoDuca was a douche”
by Bay Area Sports Guy on Apr 23, 2009 11:32 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If Sanchez is actually used like as a relief pitcher in the upcoming games, then you can complain about jerking him around. I can’t see the problem with giving a pitcher with history like Sanchez’s some extra time off. Especially one who started competative ball earlier than the rest of the staff.
by chilibean_3 on Apr 22, 2009 5:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
In re: to C
Umm, Nate? That is all.
Insanity is just a state of mind.
by giants9107 on Apr 22, 2009 6:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would bitch but......
Zito was a stud today. As much as I agree there really is nothing you can bitch about. Jerking Sanchez around really sucks but getting Zito straightened out could be huge. I know its only one start. I’m not saying anything is better until I see it for a few weeks in a row but right now Sanchez is the odd man out.
Bring me the head of Barry Zito!
by elGuapo on Apr 22, 2009 5:16 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I don’t like bumping up Lincecum and Cains workload, but it’s not a terrible idea to give Sanchez the start off, while keeping Lincecum in his rhythm.
Remember how much he was talking about not being in rhythm? Let’s not mess with that.
Eric "Beastmode" Surkamp, Overlord of Augusta.
by MonkeyChow on Apr 22, 2009 5:17 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I wouldnt have done, but otherwise Im pretty indifferent
Proud adoptive parent of the set-up man.
This is Howry do it!
by CB30 on Apr 22, 2009 5:45 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I was listening to radio by chance
and Bochy actually had a good answer for this. If Sanchez didn’t skip his start then that sets back the other 4 starters to 7 days rest. I’m sure the people complaining for the sake complaining will find issue with that as well so I’m happy Giants Brass went with the solution that gives us more of Caincecum.
by SeeingStars on Apr 22, 2009 5:58 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
7 days rest sounds good
Bring back the 8-man rotation!
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
by Bhaakon on Apr 22, 2009 6:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
“And starting for your San Francisco Giants, Alex Hinshaw!”
Judgment Day is coming
comics | art | Nattowear
by Natto on Apr 22, 2009 6:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well that would be disturbing
Why does Sabean always look constipated?
by TexasRanger on Apr 22, 2009 6:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lincecum, Unit, Cain, Sanchez, Bumgarner, Alderson, Sosa, Zito
It’s a little thin at the back end, but maybe lowry will come back in a couple months and push the Zen Master to the pen.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
by Bhaakon on Apr 22, 2009 6:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Giants Brass
I love that guy
Wall-E for Best Picture 2008
McCC = McClain Chronicles
by Useful_Idiot on Apr 22, 2009 10:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sanchez has no room to complain. They’ve been skipping Schierholtz’ starts all year!
Well, there goes my one Nate Schierholtz joke. I hope I didn’t waste it by making the same one everybody else is making.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Apr 22, 2009 7:27 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
/golf clap/
Sergio Romo: striking out professional hitters since 2005. And winner of the 2012 NL Fireman of the Year Award!
by Lyle on Apr 23, 2009 9:15 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
/polite cough/
Hi, I am Johnny Disaster.
by Johnny Disaster on Apr 23, 2009 10:08 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
/dry cough, real but poorly timed/
Forsan et heac olim meminisse iuvabit... Maybe.
by Mayor of 311 on Apr 23, 2009 10:11 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
/fart
Adoptive parent of Noah Lowry. Because he was awesome once, and, goddammit, he shall be awesome once again!
I hope.
by Cookyman on Apr 23, 2009 11:59 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
/tries to slowly leave without getting noticed
by chilibean_3 on Apr 23, 2009 12:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
/hides so Howwie looks better to the ladies by not being able to read this
The Basil Fawlty Moderating Strategy:
"We could run a nice blog here if we didn't have all these members getting in the way."
Kevin Frandsen should be with the big team.
by WalrusMan on Apr 23, 2009 5:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
/bursts out laughing hysterically
/looks around at people staring
/clears throat
"Catcher are base running. Hitters are offense."
Only [hella] games left until the end of Zito's contract.
Adoptive father of "Poncho" Villalona: This Angel don't fly. Nothing about him is light.
by thehavenot on Apr 23, 2009 7:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
/strangles thehavenot
It’s not funny any more dammit! What’s this pappa to do?!?
Who else wants some?
Who else wants some Deebo?
Proud papa of Nathan John Schierholtz. Choo Choo...the train is a comin' baby, get off them tracks!!
by PacBellBoozer on Apr 23, 2009 10:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
/can’t stop looking at that apostrophe.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Apr 23, 2009 8:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
(yeah, it’s z’s if you’re using AP)
Still backing Notgardo, wheresoever he may wander. (Don't forget to wriiiite!)
by tk on Apr 24, 2009 8:19 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Who was that one user? SabeanSupporter or something? Maybe this poster read that stuff and decided you needed to bash Sabes in order to be OK here. Apparently not.
Still backing Notgardo, wheresoever he may wander. (Don't forget to wriiiite!)
by tk on Apr 22, 2009 9:42 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
When you have two off days in a four day period, don’t you have to skip someones start? I think starters need the regularity of pitching on a schedule. It’s better to have 4 out of 5 stay on a rotation and one skip a start than have everybody set back one or two days. Why risk the whole rotation losing their momentum and rusting up on us?
"Don't trust anyone under the age of 30" - Brian Sabean
by Smotheredinhugs on Apr 23, 2009 5:09 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
This is a slightly different can of worms, but I’m kind of wondering whether we should get real and admit that maybe Sanchez belongs in the bullpen. He doesn’t seem to be making much progress at stretching himself out, but he’s often unhittable the first time through the order.
by Evan on Apr 23, 2009 6:29 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Hey guys I think we should all get some real and admit that Jonathan Sanchez might not be it.
Sorry, Evan, I couldn’t help it. That thread just sticks to the walls of my mind like plaster. On a seriouser note, I do think it’s too early to give up on Sanchez as a starter if only because he is so damn electric and it would be a shame to lose that in the rotation without having… ahem… exhausted every conceivable hope that he’ll get there.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Apr 23, 2009 7:16 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree. I think most teams would give their collective left nut to have a pitcher like El Guapo as their #5 starter. Is he the future staff ace? Most assuredly not, but he’s probably our number 3 next season if we’re only going to play with our big Johnson for one season.
My adopted Giant: "Raptor Jesus" Guzman
by Goofus on Apr 23, 2009 7:31 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He has 39 career starts with an ERA of 5.34. That’s not particularly good even for a fifth starter. He has value in the role, but wouldn’t he have more value as a lights-out late-inning reliever?
I guess I’m still in favor of keeping him in the starter role for now, but I’d like to see some sign of progress.
by Evan on Apr 23, 2009 8:18 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m pretty sure his FIP-type stats are much better than that… wasn’t his ERA last year in the 5s but his FIP was something like 3.8-3.9? I think he deserves a chance, at least for the rest of this season. It’s not like we have anyone beating down the door to take his spot at the moment.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on Apr 23, 2009 8:25 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
4.53 by tRA* (or as I like to call it, “trasterisk”). That’s not broken up by starter/reliever appearances, though.
Here are some career breakdowns for Sanchez from ESPN:
First 45 pitches: .250 batting average against, .130 iso power, 23.6% strikeouts, 11% walks
Afterward: .293 batting average against, .207 iso power, 20.1% strikeouts, 14.9% walks
by Evan on Apr 23, 2009 10:20 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bwoop! Bwoop! Nerd humor alert!
4.53 by tRA* (or as I like to call it, "trasterisk").
Gilbert and Lewis approve
My adopted Giant: "Raptor Jesus" Guzman
by Goofus on Apr 24, 2009 4:33 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Even if his true talent as a starer is around 4.50 runs, that’s nearly a full-run lower than your replacement level SP in the NL. A pitcher that can throw 180 innings of 4.50 run baseball in the NL is worth about +2 wins to a team. Not shabby at all.
by xanthan on Apr 24, 2009 5:31 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And furthermore, unless you’re throwing Sanchez in a closer and he’s dominant-shutdown-omgamazing in that role, it’s not really worth it. Relievers just aren’t that valuable. I’d rather the Giants exhaust every opportunity for him to make it as a starter than a reliever just on the basis of value provided.
by xanthan on Apr 24, 2009 5:33 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t know that that’s entirely true … nonclosers can put up some pretty sweet leverage numbers, Sanchez isn’t going to throw all that many innings as a starter anyway, and I believe he would improve by more than the usual eight-tenths of a run or whatever the standard is when pitchers switch to the pen. So the math might work out in favor of the pen.
While he is valuable as a starter, literally all of that value comes in his first 45 pitches. In his career to date, you’d be better off pulling him after the third or fourth inning and bringing in the 12th man on the staff instead.
Really this is an argument for a tag-team starter in at least one spot in the rotation, but that’s not going to happen anytime soon, so I’ll shut up about it and go back to hoping Sanchez learns to extend himself.
by Evan on Apr 24, 2009 7:54 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
While he is valuable as a starter, literally all of that value comes in his first 45 pitches.
Literally fail.
Adoptive parent of Noah Lowry. Because he was awesome once, and, goddammit, he shall be awesome once again!
I hope.
by Cookyman on Apr 24, 2009 8:08 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fail fail! I meant it. He’s horrible after 45 pitches — at or below replacement level. Ergo, no value.
by Evan on Apr 24, 2009 8:29 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Are you actually arguing that Sanchez has never ever had an above replacement level inning after already having thrown 45 pitches? I think you’re better off admitting the literally fail.
Adoptive parent of Noah Lowry. Because he was awesome once, and, goddammit, he shall be awesome once again!
I hope.
by Cookyman on Apr 24, 2009 9:15 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, I’m arguing that overall he’s great under 45 pitches (which is just the number ESPN uses for some reason; there may be a better cutoff point) and terrible afterward.
by Evan on Apr 24, 2009 9:22 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is a stupid argument, but I'm not going to give up now
Even if you think that Sanchez is generally terrible after 45 pitches, it’s not the same as saying that he literally has no value. Also, using the numbers WalrusMan posted below, hitters hit .261/.349/.393 against Sanchez between his 51st and 75th pitch. That’s not only above replacement level, but also above average (though not by a lot). So I don’t know what’s the real cutoff for Sanchez, but 45 definitely isn’t it.
Adoptive parent of Noah Lowry. Because he was awesome once, and, goddammit, he shall be awesome once again!
I hope.
by Cookyman on Apr 24, 2009 2:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I actually kind of agree with you, though. Right now we don’t have anyone to replace Sanchez in the rotation, but in a couple of years, when Alderson and/or Bumgarner are ready, I’m fine with turning Sanchez into a closer and trading Wilson or something.
Adoptive parent of Noah Lowry. Because he was awesome once, and, goddammit, he shall be awesome once again!
I hope.
by Cookyman on Apr 24, 2009 8:14 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’ve been saying this for years and I keep being wrong, but the current system of reliever usage is so nuts that it has to collapse sooner or later. I’m envisioning four-man rotations on low pitch counts, and each team having two or three relief aces throwing 100+ innings each. That’s the sort of role I see Sanchez in.
by Evan on Apr 24, 2009 8:35 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
This really makes sense. You can uses the relief “aces” in high-leverage situations and lesser talents in blow-outs in either direction.
It does a better job of having your best pitchers in the game when you most need them rather than “set-up man, set-up man, closer”.
I still think Sanchez is a starter.
My adopted Giant: "Raptor Jesus" Guzman
by Goofus on Apr 24, 2009 11:35 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t know that that’s entirely true … nonclosers can put up some pretty sweet leverage numbers, Sanchez isn’t going to throw all that many innings as a starter anyway, and I believe he would improve by more than the usual eight-tenths of a run or whatever the standard is when pitchers switch to the pen. So the math might work out in favor of the pen.
number of relievers worth +2 wins or more in 2008 – 10
number of starters worth + 2 wins or more in 2008 – 61
And the IP thing is kind of speculation. Even if he’s only throwing 140 innings in a season, it’s going to be worth way more than anything he’ll do in relief. Sanchez should only be moved out of the rotation if there’s better depth to replace him with (Bumgarner, Alderson, etc.) or if he’s definitely proven that he can’t handled the work load yet.
Neither of those things has happened.
by xanthan on Apr 24, 2009 9:43 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
OK, I’ll take your word for it. I’m not completely convinced that the question of reliever value is a settled issue — it’s too dependent upon slippery assumptions about leverage and replacement level, plus there’s the whole team-psychology angle that managers and announcers are so obsessed with, and the likelihood that there are more efficient and productive ways to use relievers than the one that is currently standard.
But with regard to Sanchez, I just want to emphasize my main point: He’s a great pitcher for a few innings at a time, then he starts giving away runs in a hurry. If the team can’t figure out how to get him to be effective the second time through the order, they need to figure out how to use him in such a way that he’s not hurting the team with those extra innings.
by Evan on Apr 24, 2009 11:54 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would expect all pitchers (minus the elite ones) are worse the 2nd and 3rd time through the order. Whether Sanchez completely falls apart during his 2nd time through the order is something I’d like to look up because it’s one of those things that I think we as fans, when we watch the game, might be overstating at times.
Here’s the 2008 NL League Averages for Times Facing Opponent in Game:
1st PA – .727 OPS
2nd PA – . 765 OPS
3rd PA – .800 OPS
Here’s Sanchez’s 2008 for the same stat:
1st PA – .713 OPS
2nd PA – .742 OPS
3rd PA – .807 OPS
He’s better than league average against hitters for the first and second PA’s in a game, but he’s slightly over by the third PA — but not by a huge amount. I’m not sure I would consider a 7 points of OPS above league average to be falling apart. And, when you consider that his development path (and most likely his stamina) has been messed with some, it’s pretty impressive.
I’ll end with this, a +2 win starter is something like: Randy Wolf, Joe Blanton, Tim Wakefield, and Jon Garland.
A +2 win reliever is something like: Joe Nathan, Grant Balfour, Jonathan Broxton, and Brad Lidge.
Which do you think is more likely for Sanchez?
by xanthan on Apr 24, 2009 12:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wow, nice stat fu. Where did you get those OPS-against breakdowns? I wonder how they can possibly square with the number-of-pitches breakdowns I posted earlier.
by Evan on Apr 24, 2009 1:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s all on BB-Ref. Just go to the splits pages for an individual pitcher, or league, to find out the numbers.
Here’s a graph for the 2008 numbers by PA.
It’s based on sOPS+ which should park factor the numbers some, so it should be a little more accurate.
by xanthan on Apr 24, 2009 1:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tim Lincecum was really good (duh!) and Matt Cain had some problems the 3rd time a hitter took a PA against him last season.
by xanthan on Apr 24, 2009 1:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I can’t find any SABAR type stats but here are a few interesting things.
The linked data and one below it – http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/split.cgi?n1=sanchjo01&year=Career&t=p#times
Also here’s his starter/reliever splits – http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/split.cgi?n1=sanchjo01&year=Career&t=p#sprel
His SO/9 goes up as a reliever but his WHIP goes up as well. Surprising.
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Kevin Frandsen should be with the big team.
by WalrusMan on Apr 23, 2009 5:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was alluding to that thread. I’m shocked by your response, though — didn’t you used to be the “Sanchez is going to get hurt and he should be a reliever” guy?
by Evan on Apr 23, 2009 8:12 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh don’t get me wrong. I’m still terrified by the very thought of his arm stretching out and subsequently falling off. I like to think that I was never in the turn him into a reliever camp as early as last season just because I think the value of a starter is so much higher that I wouldn’t want to give it up. I can’t say that I wasn’t saying that, but I hope I wasn’t. I do remember staunchly advocating trading him because the arm scared me so much.
And the arm still scares me. But his value as a starter… as long as it remains at all feasible… I think it’s more important.
I also call this my “part of why I fucking hate Jonatan Papelbon” theory on pitching.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Apr 23, 2009 6:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’ve read, from a good source, that 2/3rds of pitchers who are taken in the draft have their arms fall off…sadly, Dirty appears to be firmly in this majority.
by tyrannoman on Apr 23, 2009 11:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
maybe next year.
Randy Winn is going to catch that. And he'll do it real classy-like too.
by oldjacket on Apr 23, 2009 8:30 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Assuming a MadBum or Alderson (or both) are coming soon, I think this is the year we find out. If he has a second half similar to last year, i think yes. If he’s effective through say, 160 innings this year as opposed to 90, then I think you keep him a starter and see if can go even deeper next year. He had only 3 outings of 6 or more complete innings pitched after July 1st last year.
"Don't trust anyone under the age of 30" - Brian Sabean
by Smotheredinhugs on Apr 23, 2009 9:50 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yea, depending on how other things play out, and assuming that Lincecum, Cain, and Zito are in the rotation the next few years, then we have to fill 2 spots with MadBum, Alderson, Sanchez, and Sosa (the biggest prospects at least). Perhaps even another FA next year. Sanchez will either have another 2008 where he dies off at the end of the season and he’ll go to the pen or he’ll have a good season and we’ll have trade bait from him or one of the prospects.
I’d actually like him to have a roll (it’s role you idiot, change this before you click post) of around 30-45 pitches a night every 3-4 days.
The Basil Fawlty Moderating Strategy:
"We could run a nice blog here if we didn't have all these members getting in the way."
Kevin Frandsen should be with the big team.
by WalrusMan on Apr 23, 2009 5:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
My gut says he has a much better second half. He just looks stronger to me. If he doesn’t pan out, the bullpen or a trade are both good options to have.
"Don't trust anyone under the age of 30" - Brian Sabean
by Smotheredinhugs on Apr 24, 2009 5:16 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Very high P/C count
This attempt at a populist rant has pretty well beeen demolished by the knowledgable McC crowd, and no one even mentioned that the organization has expressed concerns about managing Sanchez’ workload because of his limited ST and limited innings in the WBC.
These two either don’t have a plan, they keep changing their plan, or they have their heads so far up their plans they can’t see. It’s really unbelievable if you stop to think about it.
I would say they had a plan, but you didn’t stop to think about it.
My adopted Giant: "Raptor Jesus" Guzman
by Goofus on Apr 23, 2009 7:26 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I'm trying
but I can’t figure out P/C count.
Pitches/….
I am a bad baseball geek.
Still backing Notgardo, wheresoever he may wander. (Don't forget to wriiiite!)
by tk on Apr 24, 2009 8:20 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Probably post to comment ratio.
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I hope.
by Cookyman on Apr 24, 2009 9:17 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cooky’s right. Post/Comment ratio. We realized a few months ago that it’s an easy way to indentify people (like Takeagiantstepandgo) who like to proclaim their opinion in a Fanpost rather than join existing conversations.
My adopted Giant: "Raptor Jesus" Guzman
by Goofus on Apr 24, 2009 11:38 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wouldn’t have had a problem if Sanchez wasn’t coming off a great outing. If anyone in the rotation needs steady work when things are going right, it’s Sanchez. If this was planned from the start of the season, then I think it should have been reconsidered after Sanchez stopped our 6 game skid with a great performance.
But I’m not going to get out my pitchfork over this. I won’t even toss a brick through the GIANTS BRASS front office. Maybe an ill-tempered hand-written letter.
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by ResDog on Apr 23, 2009 8:36 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Send them a terse email.
Hi, I am Johnny Disaster.
by Johnny Disaster on Apr 23, 2009 10:10 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Needle steak?
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by SoFa King Mike on Apr 23, 2009 10:02 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Grab some pine meat?
"Don't trust anyone under the age of 30" - Brian Sabean
by Smotheredinhugs on Apr 23, 2009 10:14 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
meet some pine grabbers!
"You ask for game winning hits, I give you Eugenio Velez"
by The Gene Hackman on Apr 23, 2009 10:17 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I prefer needles away from my meat
My adopted Giant: "Raptor Jesus" Guzman
by Goofus on Apr 24, 2009 11:38 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
pine your meat with manicured hands
by CrispinGloversBalls on Apr 23, 2009 10:22 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Grab some tree, lunch!
Formerly Revolution1 || Status: Worried that Giants are going to sell my wall of Ks to Johnsonville Sausages || Barry Zito: Throws Canyons Mildly Half-OK
by GiantBrass on Apr 23, 2009 10:33 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Grab some evergreen, beef!
Meet my new son: Sundrendy Windster, coming soon to a minor league near you.
by EliminateMe on Apr 23, 2009 11:54 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Trees, the other red meat?
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by PacBellBoozer on Apr 23, 2009 10:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It shouldn't be so hard to recognize GOOD management when it happens.
This is less about Sanchez than it is about the top three pitchers, and keeping them in their rhythm and not having the rest of the rotation on too many days’ rest. Um, you know, this is obvious.
God knows we have complaints about the running of this team. In a barren lot, it shouldn’t be so hard to spot a flower.
Forsan et heac olim meminisse iuvabit... Maybe.
by Mayor of 311 on Apr 23, 2009 10:21 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
This was more about Zito than the top 3
Zito knew that if he had any trouble in the first few innings he’d get a quick hook. Even yesterday, during Zito’s best start in ages Sanchez was running to the bullpen every time Zito allowed someone to second base. In effect Zito and Sanchez were pretty much interchangeable as far as this decision went, but Zito got the ball because it was his turn (and oh yeah, he makes a little more scrilla).
I’d have to say it worked out pretty well, as I doubt it was a coincidence Zito pitches so well with Sanchez right behind him. Sort of like when Zito’s performance improved for a while after his “bullpen” stint last year.
by Bay Area Sports Guy on Apr 23, 2009 11:44 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I only saw Sanchez go warm up once.
I could have missed have missed the other time, I guess.
I’m willing to take all the official comments at face value on this one: this is about keeping the top of the rotation in its usual pattern of rest, and this is REALLY COMMON. It is so common that it is less likely that it is about one player (whether that is Sanchez, as the poster suggests, or Zito, as you suggest). We do, however, agree that this isn’t about Sanchez or an insult to Sanchez, or whatever this original poster is suggesting.
Forsan et heac olim meminisse iuvabit... Maybe.
by Mayor of 311 on Apr 23, 2009 1:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
this is exactly what sould be said. Congrats Mayor, for pointing out the folly of this post. And the stupididty of me for responding to it about 4 times.
by tyrannoman on Apr 23, 2009 11:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
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