Fire Brian Sabean
by TexasRanger on Apr 16, 2009 10:56 AM PDT
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PrintThis is not an overreaction to the start of the season, or a knee jerk because he failed (most epically) to trade Cain for Fielder. This is because Brian Sabean has lost his ability to be an effective (affective?) general manager. Whether it is poorly misjudging the free agent market or not having the balls to go through with a trade Sabes has lost it. When you look at his moves over the offseason, every single one rates as a meh or worse so far. And that was his best offseason in years. I get that feeling that the Bochy and sabean dislike young players, The only players they go after now are veterans or over the hill prospects like McPhereson or Phelps. They seem to have no interest in making risk moves or tinkering trying to find a diamond in the rough such as a Pie or a Rich Hill. The Brian Sabean era has been over for a long time now and we need to go in another direction.
I'm not a Yahoo sign up nor am I TAGSAG, I am level headed as I write this and I recognize a need for the winds of change to blow. A possible replacement in my mind is Paul depodesta formerly of the Dodgers, he was run out of town there, but in hindsight he did not make a bad move, and even made astute trades for future productive big leaguers Jayson Werth and Cody Ross. But whoever it may be the Giants need to go in a new direction. Baseball is changing, it is a young mans game now, you can't win with veterans, or a stubborn gm. So please before I see a NEEDZ MOAR CANE 4 FELDER, discuss this, see if you agree. Maybe this is a universally accepted fact here, or maybe people still cling to their old beliefs, but in my mind he needs to go now. He has done a fine job here in the past, but his time is done now, thoughts?
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because he failed (most epically) to trade Cain for Fielder
You want(ed) him to trade Cain for Fielder?
Noonan. Nooooonan!
by Giant Fan in Singapore on Apr 16, 2009 11:01 AM PDT reply actions
That's what is sounds like..
Someone’s gonna rip him a new one.
proud father of the newly acquired Brandon Crawford..
No need to rip him for an opinion
But yeah, the general consensus (and it’s a pretty strong consensus at that) is this would be a silly trade, even if Cain doesn’t know how to win.
Noonan. Nooooonan!
by Giant Fan in Singapore on Apr 16, 2009 11:05 AM PDT up reply actions
OT: Crawford looks awesome
You have every right to be a proud adoptive father.
Noonan. Nooooonan!
by Giant Fan in Singapore on Apr 16, 2009 11:12 AM PDT up reply actions
thankyouthankyouthankyou
Why does Sabean always look constipated?
by TexasRanger on Apr 16, 2009 12:52 PM PDT up reply actions
I was down to read it
but when I got there it was “oop, ya lost me”
Rafael Rodriguez: Your number 8 organizational prospect before stepping a foot on American soil and has "looked just super so far," according to Felipe Alou. "He has some bat speed and the ball comes off the bat pretty well" - K.Law.
Bochy is a much bigger problem than Sabean
Sabean isn’t perfect but does his best. Just because we don’t get good hitters doesn’t mean we don’t try…I think it is more that the hitters look at our offer and say, well, I can do better over here.
Once our hitting improves from within (after Bochy is gone) we should start to see better offseasons.
Renteria looked bad at the time and looks worse now. Just a horrible signing.
Anyway, blame Bochy. He’s the guy who makes the gametime decisions. He is transparent for the most part. Sabean is completely opaque. I think Sabean will keep his job and am really hoping they dump Bochy. Bochy is just horrible.
A good manager would be really nice.
by positiveuphemism on Apr 16, 2009 11:05 AM PDT reply actions
I thought Renteria looked like an OK signing at the time
As the offseason wore on it became clearer that he overpaid, of course, and after 1 1/2 months of swinging at a fastball that’s already in the catcher’s mitt it looks pretty bad. But at the time I think a lot of people thought it was OK.
Noonan. Nooooonan!
by Giant Fan in Singapore on Apr 16, 2009 11:07 AM PDT up reply actions
I would have much rather had Orlando Cabrera for the same money, let alone the fact that Cabrera signed for less than half as much. Hoping E-Rent could return to his 2007 self is not a strategy. Would have been better off with Cabrera at least offsetting Sandoval’s weaknesses at third base.
My plans for 2009: getting married and attending Tim Lincecum Bobblehead Day.
I’d have preferred signing O-Dog and leaving Burriss at short. I guess moving Burriss to 2b was the plan all a long, but that wasn’t necessarily a good plan.
Proud adopted parent of future big league slugger Thomas Neal
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Apr 16, 2009 11:25 AM PDT up reply actions
I would’ve preferred Cabrera too but Renteria wasn’t a terrible signing at the time. Yes, Cabrera signed for less than half but nobody knew the market was going to collapse and that an FA like Abreu, for example, would get just $5 million. Sabean jumped in from the start to sign a position of need. If he would have waited he might have signed nobody.
Noonan. Nooooonan!
by Giant Fan in Singapore on Apr 16, 2009 11:26 AM PDT up reply actions
Wasn’t a terrible signing, but wasn’t a good signing either. At the time. There were big questions about him being on the decline. Too early to tell as of now, but those fears seem to be reasonable.
I still do not understand why you’d put a SS at 2B. Burriss has no (or little) value at 2B. I want a decent hitter there; somebody like, say, Kevin Frandsen. Burriss either is, or is not, capable of being a ML shortstop. Let’s find out this year, so we know more about our team next year.
Sergio Romo: striking out professional hitters since 2005. And winner of the 2012 NL Fireman of the Year Award!
Question – one of the reasons Cabrera lasted so long, aside from his dollar demands, was that he’d cost a high draft pick. Was Renteria a Type A SS? If yes, then we likely signed the wrong guy; if not, saving a high pick is actually a refreshing change for Mr. “I signed Michael Tucker” Sabean.
p.s. Irony that IIRC the two SS in question hate each other’s guts.
Proud parent of future rookie of the year, Gerald Posey!
by GiantsFanInExile on Apr 16, 2009 1:19 PM PDT up reply actions
We both worng- in a good way.
KLaw speaks – we listen. It’s in the first paragraph.
Where is my beer & chili dog?
Yeah
Law says he will be good if he can hit the 299 he hit in the last few months, which i hope he can, but am not confident in
Why does Sabean always look constipated?
And I believe the Tigers didn’t offer him arbitration.
GROUGTHINK ALERT
Chatterbalks dot com: Still with jokes. Now with updates.
I hate to pee in Lynch Sabean Cheerios here but what makes the Damon Bruce’s of the world think the Giants’ didn’t make a similar offer to at least one of the "cheaper guys"?
We know similar offers were on the table for Furcal. So the words was out the what the Giants were willing to pay full time starting SS that might be able to hit. Yet, strangley, nothing was heard from “the cheaper” crowd.
Where is my beer & chili dog?
by daveinexile on Apr 16, 2009 11:49 AM PDT up reply actions
Shoot, in the case of Carlos Lee and whats-his-name with the Cubs, some players looked at the Giants offer and said, “I’ll take less to not play here…”
I'm thinking but nothing's happening.
If I remember with Lee, one of his main motivations to take less in Texas is because the income taxes were friendlier and Houston is closer to his cattle ranch. (Lee = Big time rancher.) I think it was less a knock on playing in SF and more a preference to play where his quality of life would be better. Sometimes guys do that.
Proud parent of future rookie of the year, Gerald Posey!
by GiantsFanInExile on Apr 16, 2009 1:21 PM PDT up reply actions
Yup. So if you want to knock Sabean for not getting a big bat, when he was willing to overpay for at least one of two guys that year, you should remember that Sabes has outbid other teams for power bats in the recent past. The outcome might not be what you wanted, but he was in the game.
Just pointing it out.
I'm thinking but nothing's happening.
I dont think he should go after them in the first play, they just do not work out in those 7 year contracts.
Why does Sabean always look constipated?
I tend to agree, but my point is that if you want to complain that Sabean hasn’t gone after a power bat in recent years, you can’t forget the times that he did go after them, but another team with a lesser offer but a preferred situation got that player instead.
I'm thinking but nothing's happening.
Did I complain that he didn’t go after a power hitter? I complain that he is behind the curve when it comes to the rest of basball (i really need to find a better way to phrase that, I’m getting tired of writing it)
Why does Sabean always look constipated?
I smell you. Let’s just say it’s a general rule. People may not complain that Sabean has not gone after a power hitter in recent years, when in fact he did. Twice. And both times got spurned in favor of teams offering lesser deals.
I'm thinking but nothing's happening.
Yeah and those will probably turn out to be good moves by the end of those contracts. And i can see myself screaming if we had signed Soriano and he decides he cant hit anywhere but leadoff, or when carlos lee hits 350 pounds from eating whole cows in the offseason. But yes people do complain a lot about the “inability to sign a big bat”
Why does Sabean always look constipated?
I wonder if “i tried but failed” works as an excuse in any other working environment.
"You ask for game winning hits, I give you Eugenio Velez"
by The Gene Hackman on Apr 16, 2009 3:23 PM PDT up reply actions
Banking?
No, I guess they didn’t really try.
GROUGTHINK ALERT
Chatterbalks dot com: Still with jokes. Now with updates.
Sure it does. If you try something and it turns out it’s not going to happen, regardless of how much money or effort you throw at it… You can’t pin that on IT, you can’t pin that on sales, and you can’t really pin that on Sabean.
I'm thinking but nothing's happening.
So, it’s really nobody’s fault that the Giants are on their way to the franchise-unprecedented 5th consecutive losing season?
Just bad luck and things not working out as Sabes had planned?
I don’t buy that.
"You ask for game winning hits, I give you Eugenio Velez"
by The Gene Hackman on Apr 16, 2009 3:47 PM PDT up reply actions
Guess what YOU just earned???
Seriously, dude… I said people complain that Sabean hasn’t tried to get a power hitter, but he did try, even outbidding other teams for the top two hitters available a couple years ago. So there’s evidence to the contrary that he, in fact, DID attempt to get a power hitter in the last couple years. Is that not true?
So how on God’s green earth do you turn THAT into, “So you’re saying it’s nobody’s fault the team sucks?” Come on, Gene, that’s so dumb, it reads like something I’d say, not something you’d say.
I'm thinking but nothing's happening.
we’ve had this discussion a bunch, and i truly appreciate you trying to make your slight in a nice way…
BUT:
You seem to be saying that Sabes can’t be blamed for not getting some middle of the order bats. You defend this position by pointing out that not only has he tried, he’s tried more than once.
There is no “try.” Especially in baseball. There is do or do not, to paraphrase Yodi-berra. “Coach don’t bench me. I know I haven’t had a hit in 50 ABs but, believe me, I’ve TRIED.”
Sabes has been “trying” to address the GLARING HOLES in this offense since before BLB was gone. And he has not be able to. He started the rebuild about 4 years after everybody in baseball knew he should.
How does Sabean’s trying and failing to field a decent lineup for 4 years earn him a pass for this year’s still embarrasing lineup?
[Personally I think the Giants FO makes moves they think will put butts in seats, and don’t really care about winning… i mean look at the team they put around bonds. And now that they have Timmy CY, we can count on more of the same.]
your move.
"You ask for game winning hits, I give you Eugenio Velez"
by The Gene Hackman on Apr 16, 2009 4:13 PM PDT up reply actions
Here’s what he gets a pass from me on:
- Lee and Soriano: You can only offer a guy so many dollars and so many years before you’ve gotta say, “ehhhhh… Never mind.” Those two guys were the cream of the crop in terms of power hitting that year. And the fact that Sabean was already offering them too much money and too many years to come to SF tells me he tried to land them. But in the end, they chose to go somewhere else to play. So what do you do? Do you offer them more money or more years and hope the difference is enough to land either of those guys? Personally, I’d say no. So the fact that those guys are not in Giants unis, I don’t pin that on Sabean.
- Other power hitting free agents: Much like Lee and Soriano, there aren’t a whole lot of power bats out there I was particularly dying to see in a Giants uniform, for the price they’d command or the years they get (a la the 2009 model of Manny looking for a five year deal). Some guys, sure, but not a lot of them. So the guys I don’t blame Sabes for are the ones who I felt were overvalued and ended up on other teams for too much money.
That’s about it. I’m not particularly defending Sabean. My point was, don’t claim he didn’t try to get a power bat since Bonds left, when he did. Do you really read that as an argument for Sabean remaining the GM after this year?
I know Brian (not particularly well, but a little bit). I like him. He’s a good dude. But I’m not in the position of saying he should absolutely positively remain the GM after this season. But I’m also not saying he needs to be fired because we’ll absolutely positively get another better GM. Hey, if you want to say without a doubt he should be gone after this year, good for you. I’m just more flexible-minded than you, apparently. That’s not a knock, it’s a good thing to have convictions, and it’s also a good thing to not lock yourself into one point of view.
Thanks for allowing me my move. I’ll now pass it back to you.
I'm thinking but nothing's happening.
[Personally I think the Giants FO makes moves they think will put butts in seats, and don’t really care about winning… i mean look at the team they put around bonds. And now that they have Timmy CY, we can count on more of the same.]
I guess the key is do you think Sabean was handcuffed by Magowabaer in delaying the rebuild or was he fully on board with it?
I tend to blame Mags and Baer for making decisions designed to put asses in the seats (or attempt to anyway) instead of talent on the field. I know nothing of the Duke Neukom, but I’ve been looking at his decision to retain Sabean as an indication that he either will continue that tradition or understands Sabean’s hands were tied. Time will tell…. long, painful time.
Hi, I am Johnny Disaster.
by Johnny Disaster on Apr 16, 2009 5:38 PM PDT up reply actions
Great argument here on both your parts. I think Sabean has definitely tried to pick up hitters and it hasn’t worked out. After seeing Carlos Lee take BP before the All-star game a couple years ago, I wanted him more than anything, but looking at the contract now, maybe Sabes made a good decision in not offering more. We MAY be able to get more production for less towards the end of that contract.
That being said, I think a ton of credit goes to the Giants scouting department for the talent they have pulled in the last two drafts. The only question in my mind is that if Sabean gets canned after this year, does he really deserve the blame for the years he was here? After all, he put up with Barry and did EXACTLY what the ownership wanted, but didn’t win a WS or make the post season after Barry left? Is that his fault that we didn’t rebuild sooner, or was he handcuffed into building a solid “potential” playoff team that didn’t mature until after he was on the unemployment line?
Time frames
Brian Sabean was VERY good from his hire until the end of the 2002 season.
Then he was lousy for a few years.
Then he began the rebirth of the Giants farm system with the drafting of Tim Lincecum in June of 2006 and has made more good decisions than bad since that time.
I didn’t like the signing of Edgar Renteria this past off-season, but I did like the signings of Randy Johnson, Jeremy Affeldt and the low-risk signing of Justin Miller. I thought the signing off Bobby Howry was a decent gamble.
Who knows how those moves will work out? In the long run, it doesn’t matter. Most of the Giants’ future is either already on their roster or is playing for San Jose. And most of that future is under 25, all the way down to 16 (Rafael Rodriguez).
The saying “Their future is ahead of them” is an obvious and redundant one. But with the Giants, you can see what it might mean.
by good until 2002 you mean lucky.
I can say this because he didn’t start making different moves in 2002, he made the same kinda dumb ones, but they didn’t work out.
Renteria was overpriced, but I bought my house at the top of the market, too, so I can’t really blame him for that.
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
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PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game currently in early planning stages.
If, then
If we say Brian Sabean was lucky prior to the end of the 2002 season, wouldn’t it follow that we would have to say he was unlucky during his down period from 2002 midway through 2006?Through the end of 2002, almost every trade Brian made either worked out or was rather neutral. Since then he hasn’t fared nearly as well in that department, although to his credit, at least he’s made far fewer deals.Where Brian began to go wrong at the end of 2002 was with free agents. For the most part, he didn’t keep the ones he should have (Kent, Mueller, Lofton and Sanders) and signed many he shouldn’t have (including Alfonzo, Perez, Matheny, Zito and likely Renteria.
Maybe Brian WAS lucky. But I feel it is presumptuous to say so without reallly knowing for sure.
this is why
you should not really analyze moves in retrospect.
I agree he was unlucky at times – especially with Edgardo Alfonzo.
AT THE TIME HE MADE THEM All the moves he made looked pretty stupid, or at best mediocre. The notable exceptions are:
(in no particular order)
0) Bonds resigning (if I recall he had nothing to do with the 1993 initial signing)
1) Durham
2) Alfonzo
3) Ellis Burks
4) Reggie Sanders
I am not sure how much credit (he gets some) for the Schmidt trade… since he gave up a decent young OF (who immediately got hurt out out of baseball) for a guy who then put up the best years of his life. I give him almost no credit for aquiring Jeff Kent, because in his own words “Julian Tavarez” was the key to the deal. He gets points for selling high on Matty.
Everyone else he aquired was either an a slappy hitting alleged defensive whiz (Neifi, Sanchez, Shinjo), an unknown crapshoot relief pitcher, or some aged crafty veteran who either (a) tanked predictably or (b) had a last flurry of glory before riding off into the sunset.
I think Renteria was (and still is) a reasonable solution given the lack of options they had at SS this year and the next.
All that being said… he (or his staff) have produced some nice drafts since they starting sucking bad enough to worry about signing bonuses.
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
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PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game currently in early planning stages.
Also should get credit for
Robb Nen
Livan Hernandez (credit taken away for then dealing him for nothing)
Jose Cruz Jr. (don’t let the dropped ball sway you)
Omar Vizquel
And those are just off the top of my head. I think Sabean should get a lot of credit.
But then, he should also get a LOT of blame, too.
"Catcher are base running. Hitters are offense."
Only [hella] games left until the end of Zito's contract.
Adoptive father of "Poncho" Villalona: This Angel don't fly. Nothing about him is light.
/sitting on a barrel of hay
No state taxes & no Giant games blacked out.
El Presidente Larry Baer's epitaph
"Nothing important ever happened without me."
who hired Bochy? Wasn’t it Sabean? How many bad signings does he have to make before he gets canned? The choice of manager is included in this as well. You have Bochy, Dave Roberts, Rowand, Zito, (maybe not his fault, but if it isn’t, he should have expressed himself stronger) Matt Morris, Jose Castillo, Armando Benitez, Ray Durham, Pedro Feliz, Ryan Klesko, and I’m just listing over the last few years. Throw in the bad trades and what has he done to keep his job? His draft choices? Alot of the recent success is due to the fact that they’ve added sound judges of talent like Bobby Evans and Barr, and also due to the fact that the teams Sabean has built have been so bad they’re now picking near the top of the draft.
I’m not saying to fire him today, but if his 2009 signings turn out to be like the signings of the past two years, you’d have to be crazy to give him a new deal.
Proud new dad of Edgardo errr Edgar Renteria!!!
I’d like a new GM, sure..but we don’t know about Sabean. All we know is he never tells anything that is going on behind the scenes. What we do know is that our farm system is getting stronger each year and that Magowan is gone (and seems to be taking the fall for zito.)
by positiveuphemism on Apr 16, 2009 6:46 PM PDT up reply actions
Everyone talks of the bad signings that the dude has made, but why doesn’t anyone think of the trades where he has absolutely ROBBED the opposing GM? Keep in mind, this is the same man that brought us via trade Randy Winn, Jeff Kent, Rob Nenn, Jason Schmidt, JT Snow, the Big Cat, Kenny Lofton, Joe Carter, Bill Mueller and didn’t really give up anyone who became shit in the big leagues. At some point, you have to ask yourself who was holding this guy back from building a contender…because I honestly don’t think it was Sabean. His track record is pretty damn solid until he was forced to build around Barry
Jason Schmidt?
Schmidt’s contract was up, and he SUCKED before the GIants got him. I wouldn’t say that was a robbery trade. The Pirates turned a huge bust player who would have left the team in 3 months into a serviceable outfielder and B+ pitching prospect, that both suffered career ending/altering injuries in short order is jut bad luck. There’s no way that Sabean could have predicted either Schmidt’s incredible turnaround or his sudden durability.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
You have an odd definition of ''sucked"
He was hurt in 2000 but from 97-99, he averaged 200+ innings with a 104 ERA+ and 147 strikeouts. That’s basically a league average #2 starter.
Neither Vogelsong nor Rios suffered career ending injuries. Vogelsong got back to the majors (and, apparently, on to Japan after that) after TJ surgery and Rios was still playing in South America as recently as last winter.
Meet my new son: Sundrendy Windster, coming soon to a minor league near you.
Didn’t Schmidt throw like a one-hitter his first start in SF? Whether it was Sabean or one of his scouts, they obviously saw something in him. And he (they?) also let him go right before he blew up. You can call it genius or luck, but whatever it was, it turned out great for the Giants and Sabean deserves some credit for it
Schmidt had a 4.61 ERA year to date before the trade, and 5.40 the season before. He’d suffered injuries both seasons. Sabean had no reason to expect the turnaround, and, more importantly, he was only under contract for another couple months. I have a very hard time categorizing any trade deadline rental-type deal as a robbery. Schmidt was probably Sabean’s best signing, though (non-brainer Bonds extensions aside).
As for the the injuries to Rios and Vogelsong, as I wrote, they were career ending/altering. Vogelsong was sidetracked by injury, and never haad a healthy season. Rios’s career as an effective player (even an effective bench player) was over, even if it took the league another 300 odd ABs to figure it out.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
Of course you were.
He went out and blew away the Pirates almost before anyone had time to think about it.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
It was actually early in the afternoon on the 30th, and he didn’t pitch until after 7pm the next day.
Haven't been to The Examined Life? No wonder your life feels so empty.
"I been waitin' a long time for this! I been waitin' since the f**kin' amateurs!" --WILL "THE THRILL" CLARK
by Josh from Hollywood on Apr 18, 2009 10:45 PM PDT up reply actions
Sabean had no reason to expect the turnaround
I had Schmidt on my fantasy team that year, so I was watching closely, and I can tell you that he had already turned around. His last six or eight starts before the trade were just tremendous, and it was clear that he was finally realizing his potential.
I don’t think he was lucky with the Schmidt trade, I actually thought that Sabean was doing a great job back then. He seemed to have the knack. I was excited every year at the trade deadline because I knew he was going to do something great. Even the Ponson trade SHOULD have been a great trade because he gave up little to get one of the top winners in the AL. But you have to be judged on what you’ve done lately. He can’t get a lifetime pass because he used to make good trades and signings. It’s been a long time since he got it right. He might have been a victim of his own success, because other GM’s didn’t want to make trades with him after awhile.
Proud new dad of Edgardo errr Edgar Renteria!!!
I think it was less other teams not wanting to make trades, and more that he had nothing to offer.
It turned out that few of the prospects Sabean gave up in those deals came back to bite the team (Foulke and Howry are the only serious regrets), but all were highly touted. The Giants had few well-regarded prospects after about 1999, and the system was so thin that they couldn’t afford to trade the few they had.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
Wrong focus?
You know how upset I was with the Giants’ signing of Barry Zito, Mark. And you know I wasn’t big on their signing of Edgar Renteria.
But we may be focusing on the wrong part of Brian Sabean’s performance, since his ultimate success will be determined by the players he has signed beginning with Tim Lincecum and continuing all the way through the signing of the #6 overall pick in 2009 and quite possibly a top 15 pick in 2010.
In addition to drafting well the past three seasons, Brian has added Angel Villalona and Rafael Rodriguez from the Dominican.
I was shocked when the Giants re-signed Brian two summers ago. In reality, though, he seems to have done a good job since then where it’s most important — acquiring young talent.
But we may be focusing on the wrong part of Brian Sabean’s performance, since his ultimate success will be determined by the players he has signed beginning with Tim Lincecum and continuing all the way through the signing of the #6 overall pick in 2009 and quite possibly a top 15 pick in 2010.
The way things are going, I suspect that Sabean’s successor may be evaluated by those signings.
Sabean himself will probably be best remembered for his failure to pull off even serviceable drafts while the team was still good. Oh, and Zito.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
Manny Acta
I like Manny Acta as a manager. Manny’s contract expires at the end of the season, and the Nationals certainly haven’t gotten offf to a good start.
nope, i think he has been slipping over the last 3 to 4 years
Why does Sabean always look constipated?
by TexasRanger on Apr 16, 2009 12:54 PM PDT up reply actions
Then I disagree
IMO he’s actually been better in the past couple of years.
Judgment Day is coming
comics | art | Nattowear
Zito is the only one I have a real problem with out of the three.
Judgment Day is coming
comics | art | Nattowear
Really?
You dont have a problem with 5 years of Rowand as a cf?
Why does Sabean always look constipated?
You want Sabean to be more “aggressive” in offseason signings, yet you slam him for signing Rowand?? How do you figure him to get capable batters for a sub .500 rebuilding team in what media members label a pitcher’s park without overpaying?
See another comment, the free agent market is a poor way to build a team, be aggressive with minor leaguers and “low profile trades” but be less aggressive in the big time free agent market. When was the last time any free agent worked out for anyone besides Barry Bonds.
Why does Sabean always look constipated?
Leauge wide in Cf?
The Beltran contract was not disastrous. Mike Cameron has been pretty decent.
Where is my beer & chili dog?
Yes
but Beltran’s power will decline and by the end of the contract it will look bad, its bound to happen with all long term contracts. And sorry lots of free agent deals work out, when was the last time a 5 year deal or more worked out? And for every one that does how many fail? Is it ever worth the risk?
Why does Sabean always look constipated?
My apologies. I miss understood were you were going with this. In genreal I actually agree with your premise as you stated here.
Beltran is interesting because he had a horrible first year, compared to expectations, like our own Scott. It really looked like a nuclear meltdown of a contract. Now with only 2 seasons after this one (age 33 & 34 seasons) I would saw the odds are good the Mets will get what they paid for and in a premium position to boot.
Where is my beer & chili dog?
Yeah
Beltran is the exception not the rule, and yeah i poorly wrote my point first, my bad
Why does Sabean always look constipated?
not your bad. I am responbile for trying to read it correct as much as you are for trying to write it so.
Where is my beer & chili dog?
part of the weirdness with FA deal is that you hope that salries continue to rise, so that even if the player declines later in the deal that he won’t be overpaid at the end. BTW, Manny, A-Rod, & Cap’n Jets are all 5+ year deals that have worked out…
Those are just three out of all the five year plus free agent deals handed out, if you are trying to tell me that signing a player to a five year deal is a good idea, you need more evidence than that.
Why does Sabean always look constipated?
that was just off the top of my head, and I think every signing is a different case. I can’t say it’s good or bad until I know what player we’re talking about. Zito’s contract was a bad idea the moment it was inked. A-Rod’s deal (the 10 year on before this 10 year one) wasn’t close to as bad.
A-rod was good, but Soriano and Lee will be bad by the time contract is up, same with Rowand, Pierre, Mathews, Kevin Brown, Mike Hampton, Todd Helton, Vernon Wells, Griffey, Torii won’t be, Scott Rolen, Kevin Millwood, and those are just a few I can pull out of my head right now
Why does Sabean always look constipated?
I’ll give you Lee for sure, but I’m not sure about Soranio. I’m glad the Giants’ didn’t go that far trying to sign him, but he may be worth the $$.
Like I said, it all depends on the player we’re discussing. I don’t like the Rowand contract, but I’m not sure he’ll end up being overpaid in the end. Yes, he had a bad year last year but if he hits 22 HR’s a year for the rest of his contract, it won’t be so bad.
Is soriano gonna be hitting 30+ homers when he is 37 & 38
Why does Sabean always look constipated?
by TexasRanger on Apr 16, 2009 10:00 PM PDT up reply actions
Well...
I’m going to be redundant here, but the last 3 years of Sabean are exactly what you’re asking for. The Giant’s farm system has vaulted up from nowhere and our top draft picks all look promising. I don’t see how McPhereson and Phelps don’t qualify for low profile moves.
To be frank, my evaluation of Sabean is the complete opposite of yours. In your fanpost you think he’s done a fine job in the past, but I would venture to say he’s made way more mistakes back then. Other than Kent and Schmidt, Sabean was basically surviving off Bonds. Benitez, Pierzynski, old player after old player, trading away picks, not one above average position player developed (well you can make the case for Feliz I suppose) are all bigger mistakes than 5 years for Rowand.
My main complaint is
Sabean is behind the times in baseball, and when he does catch up, there will be another change. Baseball front office ideals experience significant turnover, essentially there was a time when free agents were the way to go, and then even the big market teams decidedmto rebuild, draft bonuses are going up again, and the overseas market is exploding. Then when that goes up and free agents go down again the market will shift. he will just be behind again when it does.
Why does Sabean always look constipated?
Sabean is definitely oldschool
but to be fair, I don’t think you can call Pat Gillick a trendsetter either but he’s won 3 WS including last year’s.
Now does that mean I’m a Sabean proponent? Absolutely not. Still I think he’s passable as a GM among the pool of GMs.
I don’t really get the point SeeingStars is making here. If you’re not going to give Sabean credit for the winning that was done in the Bonds years, what exactly CAN you give him credit for? He’s kept his job through these lean times because of the success of the Bonds years. As for the success of the recent drafts, there are reasons for that, and Sabean probably doesn’t deserve the praise he’s been getting.
In short, he was way behind the times in recognizing the importance of the draft, way behind the times in recognizing the importance of all the new statistics, and this offseason he was way behind the other GM’s in recognizing the market, which is why other teams were able to sign players like Orlando Hudson, Bobby Abreu, Pat Burrell etc at bargain basement prices while he was shelling out way too much for someone like Edgar Renteria. Even if you like Renteria, you have to know that he could have had him for much less. How long are we going to continue to make excuses for him?
Proud new dad of Edgardo errr Edgar Renteria!!!
What I mean by my response to him being behind the times is that while I definitely agree, I don’t think its fair to say there’s one absolute methodology to being a successful GM which the last WS showcased to two extremes.
As far as credit/blame issue, you’re right I’m probably giving Sabean too much credit for the recent drafts, but I honestly don’t know who has what say on personnel moves so I assume the GM has his hands somewhat on what his staff is doing.
On drafts it seems to me like the scouting department would scout all the players and then present their cases to the gm who would choose whether or not to draft that player. So that would mean that Barr and Evans are doing a great job of scouting and leading the scouting team.
Why does Sabean always look constipated?
Still, Sabean is the head of the office, so he get to take credit and blame for the draft and all other business/signing decisions. Otherwise, you are just picking and choosing based on whimsy or to satisfy your critique of Sabesy. Scouts and staff also evaluate potential free agent signings, not just potential amateur draftees. Other staff do research on the FA market and contract prices. Yet more staff, train and drill and promote, and so on. As the GM Sabes, is the top-man – claimer of credit and target of blame.
co-dad of IshikaBOOM w/AfDC.
Ishikawa, let the boy hit against lefties.
+1
You articulate much better than I could have.
You can’t put blame on Sabean for Velez starting and then not credit him for drafting a Posey.
+2
To both you and kennv. If you want to credit Barr and Evans for the work they’ve done, that’s cool. But you also have to note that Sabean put them in position to do what they do, and ultimately he has final say even in issues of drafting.
I'm thinking but nothing's happening.
It may be that he’s kept his job through these lean years because he was doing his bosses’ bidding and they liked the job he was doing.
In the last couple of years (when Magowan was out of the picture/a lame duck) money and effort have been put into drafting and iinternational development.
How STAT savvy he is I don’tknow, but he does seem to be on the scout side of that particular religious divide.
Hi, I am Johnny Disaster.
by Johnny Disaster on Apr 16, 2009 5:51 PM PDT up reply actions
I don’t think that Sabean underestimated that draft, I just feel that the Giants’ were so against their payroll limits in the Bonds era, they didn’t have the $$ to spend on the draft. Hudson wouldn’ve cost the team a draft pick, and Burrell and Abreu play in the OF where two of the Giants’ best 4 player play. And their highest paid player (non Zito division) get to go out every day.
Yes, he could’ve had Renteria for much less, but it’s only a two year deal, and I don’t think anyone could’ve predicted the free fall in the FA market this year.
But, he would have been offered Arb (probably) if the Giants had tried to sign him before the Arbitration-offer deadline – which is when they signed Renteria.
co-dad of IshikaBOOM w/AfDC.
Ishikawa, let the boy hit against lefties.
no, they didn’t. The deal was in place, but the Giants’ didn’t actually sign Renteria until after the Tigers declined to offer him arbitration. They didn’t give up a draft pick, which was huge at the time.
Payroll limits
It may well be correct to state that Brian Sabean didn’t underestimate the draft so much as he was up against it spending-wise.
But he is still to blame, since his poor-to-mediocre free agents signings were what put the Giants up against it spending-wise.
Good point. As great as Bonds was, I do believe he was around 20% of the whole payroll. The Giants’ may be the only team in this era that has succeded at all with one player taking up such a large portion of the payroll. It’s an interesting dance for sure.
The payroll issue had very little to do with Bonds, he was a complete bargain.
The payroll issue had alot more to do with the minor league not producing any cheap and effectve major leaguers. The Giants had to turn to free agency just to fill out the roster.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
I don’t give Sabean a pass for what he was up against spending wise. He was fully on board with the policy. He made many comments at the time about the wisdom of forfeiting your number one pick. He made it pretty clear that he thought the draft was pretty much a crap shoot, and the players in the second and third rounds were just as good, without you having to give them big money.
Proud new dad of Edgardo errr Edgar Renteria!!!
Behind the times
Brian Sabean certainly was WAY behind the times in recognizing the importance of the draft, but he has finally caught up — and appears to have done quite well with his drafting and Dominican signings the past three years.
I’m not sure whether the Giants have drafted well because of Brian or in spite of him, but the bottom line is that they appear to have drafted quite well.
Yes, it’s a lot easier when you have #10, #10 and #5 (and now #6) overall, but it appears the Giants have done quite well with those picks.
Promise me a healthy arm for Madison Bumgarner, and I would say they have done GREAT with those picks.
What constitutes a “low profile trade?” Except for the AJ ordeal, Sabean’s trade record is awesome. He was doing well way before dumping Matt Morris!
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/files/san_francisco_giants_brian_sabean.xls
A.J. the worst, not the only
A.J. Pierzynski was by far Brian Sabean’s worst trade, but not the only one. Trading Livan Hernandez for Jim Brower wasn’t the best, either.
Brian’s biggest problem has been with deciding which players to sign and re-sign. After the 2002 season, he allowed Jeff Kent, Bill Mueller, Kenny Lofton, Reggie Sanders, Hernandez and Russ Ortiz to leave with little to show in return.
From the 2002/2003 off-season until he drafted Tim Lincecum in 2006, Brian was pretty awful. Since then, he has actually been above-average.
Perhaps the Giants should keep Brian to spearhead the draft, and bring in someone else to pick out the free agents they will sign. :)
Oh, and just THINK if he had traded Lincecum for Alex Rios!
Sabean didn’t let Kent leave, Kent chose to sign with Houston. He took less $ and fewer years. As a matter of fact, at his into press confrence in Houston, Kent told the story about how he instructed his agent to make sure he ended up there.
Ortiz was traded because of payroll reasons, and the Giants are still trying to figure out what Merkin Valdez brings to the table.
Sanders wasn’t resigned, but Jose Cruz Jr. was great until the biggest choke in SF Giants history in the 2003 playoffs. I don’t think your theory holds water on that postseason.
I guess that is why they have horse races
I guess disagreements are why they have horse (and pennant) races. If we all agreed on everything, they wouldn’t have to play those things out to prove them.
Here is how I see post-2002:
Kent — Yes, Jeff DID want to leave. But had Brian handled the car washing incident differently and shown Jeff that he truly wanted to keep him, I suspect the result could have been different.
Mueller — All he did was lead the AL in batting in 2003.
Lofton — Did a nice job for the Giants and kept playing well for another five years or so.
Sanders — Brian failed to realize that Reggie was one of those every-other-year players, sort of like Robb Nen. Brian signed Reggie for two years, but opted out of the second, which not surprisingly turned out to be another good one for Reggie, who also was quite serviceable for another half decade, somewhat like Lofton.
Hernandez — Brian was a REAL boob on this one. He actually paid all but the minimum of Livan’s 2003 salary just so Livan could develop into a top 10 NL starter for the Expo/Nationals. Why did he do so? Because he was afraid that Livan would pitch 216 innings in 2003 and vest an option for something like $4.5 million for 2004.
If the Livan weren’t pitching well enough in 2003 to earn the vesting, all the Giants would have had to do was remove him a bit earlier from his games. By coincidence, Livan had pitched exactly 216 innings in 2002.
Ortiz — All Russ did was win 20 games for the Braves in 2003. The Giants probably would have made the mistake of re-signing Russ, but they wouldn’t have been required to do so if they hadn’t traded him after 2002.
Brian let a TON of talent slip away from him after the 2002 season, and the Giants have never come close to their 2002 post-season since.
I agree with you on all of those except Sanders. I preferred Cruz to Sanders.
I think sharksrog has the best (i.e. closest to mine) perspective here.
Thinking back on the 2003 season, imagine had the Giants had Kent at 2nd (I know it probably wasn’t Sabean’s fault that he left, but still), Mueller at third, and Hernandez and Ortiz in the rotation.
That 2003 team won 100 games almost exclusively on the shoulders of Barry Bonds, Jason Schmidt and the bullpen. Check out the OPS+/ERA+ of all the players on that team. It’s amazing. Had some of those guys been replaced by others who were more productive, who knows what could have happened.
After that, it was all downhill from there. And it’s going to be a long rebuilding process.
"Catcher are base running. Hitters are offense."
Only [hella] games left until the end of Zito's contract.
Adoptive father of "Poncho" Villalona: This Angel don't fly. Nothing about him is light.
although to be fair on the Ortiz deal he did get Merkin Valdez, and right now who would you rather have?
Proud new dad of Edgardo errr Edgar Renteria!!!
Sure
But it still remains to be seen just how valuable Valdez is going to be. However, I still would have preferred the Giants keep Ortiz than have the possibility of a good-dominant bullpen arm in the here and now.
"Catcher are base running. Hitters are offense."
Only [hella] games left until the end of Zito's contract.
Adoptive father of "Poncho" Villalona: This Angel don't fly. Nothing about him is light.
Merkin
I really like Merkin and hope he turns out very, very well for the Giants. Still, this is the seventh season after the trade. Discounting for the time value, Merkin will need to perform quite well for quite a while to make up for Russ Ortiz’s 20 wins six seasons ago.
Mark makes a good point here, but I think in reality he may be overstating the case. If this were football, it would be somewhat like trading a latter-day Brett Favre for a 2015 fourth-round draft choice.
Neither here nor there, but I don’t think Sabean is the one who should’ve handled the “car washing” incident differently. I think, maybe just perhaps, Kent should’ve been honest to his employer (who didn’t fine him or withhold a dime of his salary) rather than lying about it. Maybe that’s just me.
I think that’s moot anyway. Bonds was tired of Kent, Kent was tired of Bonds, and the Giants’ kept the better player.
Hernandez was another player who just wore out his welcome. I know that trading a player for “clubhouse reasons” is odd to those of us not there, but it seems that he was doomed to go.
Good points
Jeff Kent was wrong, wrong, wrong in the car washing incident. He was as wrong as a motorcycle is different from a car and as car washing is from riding.
But it was the Giants who wound up hurting from the fallout of the situation moreso than Jeff.
Hernandez had probably worn out his welcome in the clubhouse, as you say. But isn’t it a manager’s job to work through the problems caused by different personalities in order to get the job done? And wasn’t that manager hired by Brian Sabean, who also acquired Hernandez in the first place?
Regarding Jose Cruz versus Reggie Sanders, I liked the play of Jose more than most Giants fans. With two glaring exceptions, he was great in right field and did a good job of getting on base. But in 2003, Sanders posted a .913 OPS while driving in 87 runs in 130 games.
And IIRC, the Giants bought out Reggie’s contract for $500K. Added to the $2.5 million they paid Cruz, the Giants paid $3 million for a .779 OPS from Cruz. I don’t believe they would have had to pay more than that to Sanders had they exercised their option for him.
And given that Reggie wound up signing for only $1 million that season, perhaps the Giants could have worked out a deal where they gave him a $500K raise from the $1.75 million he made in 2002. That would have saved them $750K compared to buying him out and signing Cruz, and would have improved their OPS in right field by well over 100 points.
And Reggie would have made $750K more than he wound up receiving. A win/win situation.
My worst 5.
Zito, Zito, Zito, Rowand and Ziwand.
The last 2 picks are because even at the time I viewed Rowand as redundant on the team with Winn.
Where is my beer & chili dog?
Not a Winning Center Fielder
As good as Randy Winn is defensively at the corner outffield spots, he’s not very good in center field. Unfortunately, Randy is a player who hits like a center fielder, but isn’t really a good enough fielder to play there.
That said, playing Randy in center field and flanking him with Fred Lewis and Nate Schierholtz wouldn’t have been the worst thing the Giants could have done a year ago.
Ah but I don’t think much of Rowand as a CF (and didn’t at the time of the signing) in full sized out field. To me Winn has less power but is steadier. I would say Winn has a better glove then Rowand as well but this is higher debatable. In either case really Rowand is a slightly younger version Winn with more power so just why did (or does) the franchise need both?
Where is my beer & chili dog?
Because
Because Aaron is a better center fielder and does indeed have more power.
I’ll admit I was OK with the Rowand signing in part because I felt it put the Giants in position to trade Winn and/or Dave Roberts.
I hated the Rowand signing, unless the Giants traded Winn and Roberts.
co-dad of IshikaBOOM w/AfDC.
Ishikawa, let the boy hit against lefties.
This is pretty much my stance.
I am pro Winn if I was to choose between the two but really, to me, the most important thing was they needed to chose; which they didn’t do.
Where is my beer & chili dog?
by daveinexile on Apr 19, 2009 11:24 AM PDT up reply actions
Lincecum, Cain, Sanchez, Sandoval, Wilson, Posey, Villalona, Alderson, Bumgarner, Gillaspie, Noonan, Crawford?
Semi-proud adoptive father of Scott Barnes.
Again I give the credit for the farm to John Barr not Brian Sabean
Why does Sabean always look constipated?
And if I wanted to I could blame the FA signings on Peter Magowan. He was the owner, so technically he was Sabean’s boss. Your logic is pretty flawed. You’re blaming Bochey’s problems on Sabean and not giving Sabean credit for any of the things he did right. Yes, he’s been an idiot on the FA market, but you have to give him credit for everything good about the organization if you’re going to knock him for everything bad.
Semi-proud adoptive father of Scott Barnes.
John Barr didn’t start with the Giants until the end of the 2007 season. Barr has been here for a grand total of one draft.
So you can’t really credit Barr with any of those guys except Posey, Crawford, and Gillaspie.
You’d also said that if the GM wants a guy to play, he’ll tell the manager to play that guy. Likewise, shouldn’t you also say that if the GM wants to draft a guy, he’s going to have the final say over the head of scouting?
I'm thinking but nothing's happening.
Yes but
the gm only knows about the potential draftees from the information that the scouting director gives him, its not like he goes and scouts all the players and then decides who to draft.
Why does Sabean always look constipated?
Yeah, lets not ignore the fact the reason we hired him was because he was a top scout for the Yankee’s when they were developing players
Rafael Rodriguez: Your number 8 organizational prospect before stepping a foot on American soil and has "looked just super so far," according to Felipe Alou. "He has some bat speed and the ball comes off the bat pretty well" - K.Law.
I’m confused… So it’s a failing of Brian Sabean’s that he has his scouts and scouting director scout players, instead of personally doing it himself?
That’s silly. Look, part of a GM’s job, and part of why any good GM gets credit for what they do, is because they hire the right people for the right jobs. Sabean’s responsible for his staff, so he deserves credit for that, doesn’t he?
Again, I’m not defending the idea of him staying with the Giants beyond this contract, I’m defending the notion that he doesn’t deserve credit for performing certain aspects of his job.
I'm thinking but nothing's happening.
yes
he gets credit for their sucesses and demerits for their failures. Like failures to develop (a) single (1) batter who can TAKE A FREAKING BASE ON BALLS.
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
-------
PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game currently in early planning stages.
Yes
This might be the thing that annoys me the most about this years Giants, they all hack up a storm except for Lewis and Winn
Why does Sabean always look constipated?
Who Hired John Barr, Again?
No, really, I have updated my blog this year: http://skaldheim.livejournal.com/tag/baseball
Barr None
It may be true that John Barr deserves most of the credit for the Giants’ drafting beginning in 2008. But of the dozen players Boonitez mentioned as good draftees and/or signings, Barr had nothing whatsoever to do with nine of them.
"This is not an overreaction to the start of the season"
the above statement is so false it’s comical.
Flossing a dead horse
by kenshin1 on Apr 16, 2009 11:07 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Sorry, doc-to-be, I disagree. The start of the season makes the timing of the post more appropriate, that’s all. It is NOT an overreaction. It is the truth being spoken at a painful time. Sabean has consistently done less with more than most. He was late to see the value of developing your own young players and locking them into early, less-expensive contracts. He was late to act on the need to replace an aging superstar. I grant that he did some good things earlier in his SF tenure, but he has been overtaken by better (and younger) GM’s in the last several years. His hiring of John Barr is the exception to that. And as long as some wish to blame Magowan for the Zito Debacle, perhaps we should also assign credit to Magowan for pressuring Sabean to hire Barr. In either case, we’ll never know. All we can do is go by the results. Yes, the 2007 draft looks good. Yes, signing Villalona was a bold stroke. Each came years too late.
The emperor has no clothes. And hasn’t for several years.
Sergio Romo: striking out professional hitters since 2005. And winner of the 2012 NL Fireman of the Year Award!
locking them into early, less-expensive contracts
Which players are you referring to? He locked Lowry and Cain up, IIRC; can’t really think of anyone else worthy. (And before you say Lincecum, didn’t he want to go year-to-year?)
Proud parent of future rookie of the year, Gerald Posey!
by GiantsFanInExile on Apr 16, 2009 5:48 PM PDT up reply actions
Better late than never
Brian Sabean was quite late in realizing the importance of the draft. But since he finally did, his acquisitions of young talent have been among the best of any GM. Brian certainly has benefitted from good draft positions, but he seems to have capitalized well.
I was shocked when the Giants re-signd Brian two years ago, but perhaps I was guilty of driving with my rear view mirror.
I believe it was the great philosopher Mater who once said, “I don’t need to see where I’m going… I just need to see where I been.”
I'm thinking but nothing's happening.
I'm guessing
I’m guessing Mater didn’t make a killing on the stock market. :)
Not so much, Mater was just a poor tow truck in Radiator Springs, off Route 66.
I'm thinking but nothing's happening.
The giants have something...
like a 78-80 win team in terms of true talent.
The fact that everything that could go wrong has gone wrong in the first week of the season does not make the team any worse.
Flossing a dead horse
Perspective?
Take that somewhere else!
"The BB's are out. The BB's are being arseholes to me." - Brian Wilson.
You guys have totally lost me. You say the Giants have a 78-80 win team in terms of talent, yet you don’t fault the man who put that team together. Your argument is basically don’t blame Sabean for all these losses, because the team sucks. Huh? If anything, Bochy is the one who gets a pass if the team is lousy, not Sabean. And believe me, I don’t give Bochy a pass. He’s a horrible manager. Toss them both out with the trash.
Proud new dad of Edgardo errr Edgar Renteria!!!
yes, because they are rebuilding! they did start late in the rebuilding process, but now they are playing youngsters to see the devolp. Isn’t that what we all want?*
but they arent playing youngsters, Sabean is trying to have it both ways, and neither will work
Why does Sabean always look constipated?
Lewis, Sandoval, Burris, Ishikawa, plus all the pitchers. You really can’t run out 9 rookies and be legit. I don’t mind the vets this year. For the most part, they aren’t taking innings away from youngsters, (Aurilia the last two nights aside).
This
Proud parent of future rookie of the year, Gerald Posey!
by GiantsFanInExile on Apr 17, 2009 11:12 AM PDT up reply actions
I agree
I agree that the Giants should throw both Sabean and Bochy out with the trash. They should immediately replace both boobs with Mordy.
Underperformance also tends to fall on the field manager’s shoulders, rather than the general manager’s. If the fanpost had been about Bochy needing to be fired, I doubt there would be much argument here.
No, really, I have updated my blog this year: http://skaldheim.livejournal.com/tag/baseball
I’m not really sure how meaningful a term like “true talent” is with a team that has this many unknowns, then Kenshin. 3/8 of our starting lineup has no meaningful major league track record (to go with somewhat problematic minor league track records). FLew has barely a year of major league track record. And then on the other side you have players who are agewise in their decline years making up another 2 or 3/8 of the starting lineup. In the rotation, 20% is way way past decline years, 20% has yet to show any kind of consistency, and 20% is Barry Zito. The very notion of “true talent” seems predicated on much more predicatbility than the Giants roster can offer up.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
Track Record
Actually, part of the problem with the Giants’ lineup may be that they have a track record but not a baseball record. :)
If we buy pythag record as a better indication of "true talent" than actual record
Then you think the Giants somehow raised their “true talent” by about 13-15 W’s this offseason (they’re expected record was 67-95).
I’m skeptical. I think their true talent is probably close to 72-75 W’s, which would still be a which is a pretty sizable improvement for one offseason.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
Perspective
While I am a little more optimistic than you, I feel your perspective here is pretty darn good, Bhaakon.
How do I mail in my resume? I have absolutley dominated “MLB Front Office Manager”, so I must be qualified. Right?
Minor White > Ansel Adams
by say hey nation on Apr 16, 2009 11:11 AM PDT reply actions
As bad as the start of the season has been
This is more then a little knee-jerky.
Proud adoptive parent of the set-up man.
This is Howry do it!
BTW hotshot....
Prince fielder was worth about 2.5 wins last season. Matt Cain? 3.7 wins. Not only would this trade immediately make the Giants worse on a 1 for 1 level but also the Giants would have to call up a minor league pitcher and the AAA cupboard is not exactly brimming with high quality starting pitchers.
Flossing a dead horse
in addition to "recommend" for fanposts
there needs to be a “laugh at poster” option
"The BB's are out. The BB's are being arseholes to me." - Brian Wilson.
Laugh at Poster
I was really big on the “Laugh at Poster” option until I realized I would have to laugh most at myself.
But but but...
We could bring up Bumgarner now! He’s pretty much ready! Right?
I'm thinking but nothing's happening.
Three of the four
Three of the four hits Mad Bum yielded last night were of the infield variety. The other was a looping liner that fell in short center field.
He did walk two guys in a row, though, which might have been the first time in his professional career that he did so.
Where's the dang sarchasm picture when you need it?
I'm as tall as Mel - why can't I hit 500 home runs?
I’d like to see Sabean fired and replaced with Bobby Evans. I just feel as though Sabean has outstayed his welcome in San Francisco.
I don’t know about Bobby Evans
on one of the Radio Broadcasts last year he talked about how Lewis was a switch hitter
maybe nervous on the radio, maybe pays more attention to the farm…..
sure, I probably shouldn’t judge him on that…..but that is such a silly error…..
Tommy Lasorda HATES GIANTSBOARD.COM
Say Hey! Say Who? Say Willie, that Giant Kid is Great!
his contract is up after this season
why not give the team he built a chance. if there isn’t progress then get rid of him. but a week and a half into the season is too soon to make this kind of big move.
Proud adopted parent of future big league slugger Thomas Neal
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Apr 16, 2009 11:27 AM PDT reply actions
This
And if this team fails I could see Neukom dropping the bomb on Sabean.
Noonan. Nooooonan!
by Giant Fan in Singapore on Apr 16, 2009 11:29 AM PDT up reply actions
How about we wait until after June? He’s done fairly well in the drafts as of late.
Merkin Valdez? Manuel Mateo? A rose by any other name...
You mean John Barr and Bobby Evans have done fairly well in the drafts as of late.
by deuce deuce on Apr 16, 2009 11:35 AM PDT up reply actions
Right, but if there really is a house-cleaning, there’s a chance that a whole lot of less objectionable people are let go in addition to Sabean.
Merkin Valdez? Manuel Mateo? A rose by any other name...
sad but true.
Where is my beer & chili dog?
by daveinexile on Apr 16, 2009 11:52 AM PDT up reply actions
How is McPherson over the hill...
…and Rich Hill a “diamond in the rough”? McPherson is actually a few months younger than Hill.
Meet my new son: Sundrendy Windster, coming soon to a minor league near you.
shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
don’t cloud his argument with your “facts”
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
facts and whatnot
Thats the kind of logic that just doesnt belong here
Proud adoptive parent of the set-up man.
This is Howry do it!
Why is the signing of Dallas McPherson such a good move? Does it take a genius to give a minor league deal to a guy who hit 41 homeruns in the minor leagues last season? If anything, that’s the kind of signing that usually gets panned around here, with so many knowledgable fans who are smart enough to know you have to take ballpark affects into consideration. McPherson hit .244 with 16 HR’s on the road last year. Now he’s worth a shot with a minor league deal, but it’s not like Sabean is so smart he knows something other GM’s don’t know. Let’s face it, he saw 41 homeruns and jumped, just like he did with Phelps and his 31 homers. Sorry, doesn’t take a genius.
Proud new dad of Edgardo errr Edgar Renteria!!!
Nobody said it was genius
What I’m saying is that signing guys like McPherson is no different than signing guys like Rich Hill.
Meet my new son: Sundrendy Windster, coming soon to a minor league near you.
the thing that makes hill interesting and dallas not is that hill has had previous success in the majors, I’m not saying hill per say but players like him, like Cantu a few years ago or many other players. Bad teams like the Giants should be gambling left and right becuase why not?
Why does Sabean always look constipated?
by TexasRanger on Apr 16, 2009 12:58 PM PDT up reply actions
So, you're saying that if Sabean picks young guys with upside, he gets the ones that are going to be good?
Am I right?
Hindsight is nice and all, but I don’t see the point at laughing at Sabean because he didn’t get to use it.
I'm as tall as Mel - why can't I hit 500 home runs?
No
I’m saying he needs to try thats all. Sabean is guilty of not trying, he needs to be more aggressive taking risks, and like many teams are doing, pull off of the free agent market
Why does Sabean always look constipated?
Shawn Hill signed as FA, Right? Why would he sign with SF? we have all 5 rotation spots filled with better players, which means he would get 0 starts, in SD they have no pitching and may get a few starts if not 30.
Minor White > Ansel Adams
by say hey nation on Apr 16, 2009 1:58 PM PDT up reply actions
Isn’t Hill widely regarded as a headcase, and wouldn’t we have had to trade for him, whereas McPherson was a straight-up FA signing? Seems like apples and oranges.
Proud parent of future rookie of the year, Gerald Posey!
by GiantsFanInExile on Apr 16, 2009 4:24 PM PDT up reply actions
yeah but Hill wouldn’t have cost a useful prospect, i’m just saying he is an intriguing project for the right team.
Why does Sabean always look constipated?
Which is probably why the Orioles traded for him – they don’t have much pitching at so can stick him someplace and see what happens. Giants could do the same but at what price, you know?
I think for guys like Hill, there are so many factors involved that you can’t blame a GM for not going and getting him and honestly, I’d rather have a FA reclamation project than a trade-for any day of the week. (Hill is just an example; there are a number of headcase projects out there). Cubs have to sign off on the trade, we’d have to give up something and in the end, what do we get? A guy most people think is incapable of getting back to his one good MLB season and who may have been overrated in the first place. I’d much rather sign a guy like Mulder or Prior to an incentive laden deal than trade for any headcase out there. Just my two cents.
Proud parent of future rookie of the year, Gerald Posey!
by GiantsFanInExile on Apr 17, 2009 11:19 AM PDT up reply actions
You're losing me...
I’m not sure what you want Sabean to do. He does pull off the free agent market, and he does pick up freely available talent. A few guys are overpaid, sure, but Sabean is doing what he feels necessary to attract certain players. Zito is the only obvious, glaring mistake on this team right now who can seriously harm the team several years down the road. Yeah, Rowand isn’t awesome, but he isn’t a bad player, just a little overpaid.
I'm as tall as Mel - why can't I hit 500 home runs?
I’m having a hard time with this… You’re saying he should gamble on players who have had success at the major league level already, but not guys like McPherson or Phelps, because they’ve not.
I’m… Stunned. I mean, what about guys like Cust and Carlos Pena? They hadn’t really been met with any ML success before breaking through. So… ?
I'm thinking but nothing's happening.
Y'know who else has had some success in the majors?
Juan Uribe…and Josh Phelps.
Sabean’s done far more of this failed-prospect dumpster diving this year than ever before (to the extent you can separate it from his past washed-up-veterans dumpster diving). It doesn’t make much sense to me to criticize him for being in the right dumpster but picking the sandwich crust over the apple core.
Meet my new son: Sundrendy Windster, coming soon to a minor league near you.
Uribe never really showed success he has always been a poor hitter with a little bit of pop, and yeah I an’t really criticize Phelps. I’m just saying it seems like it takes Sabean a few years to catch up to the curve of the rest of the league. Now he is jumping on the dumpster diving, but it always seems he is just too late. You might call this an unfair criticism but the teams that contend have sharp gms who know what to do before the rest of the league.
Why does Sabean always look constipated?
Yep, I'd agree.
That’s an unfair criticism.
Finding a major piece through the avenues you are suggesting are so rare that no one can really count on them. If you get them, great. If not, oh well. Sabean is taking chances now, just like certain other teams.
The actual model for building a contending team is still building from within, and supplementing with the right players acquired via trade or free agency, with emphasis on building from within. I guess I just don’t see Sabean messing that up too badly right now.
I'm as tall as Mel - why can't I hit 500 home runs?
Wait a second. I love Carlos Pena but prior to Tampa Ray, his stat line was not that far off Uribe’s.
OPS+ lines of 106, 108, 113, and 112 are not bad in the early part of a career
Why does Sabean always look constipated?
by TexasRanger on Apr 16, 2009 10:03 PM PDT up reply actions
Which one is the tallest midget?
Where is my beer & chili dog?
by daveinexile on Apr 16, 2009 11:54 AM PDT up reply actions
The problem
Is the problem with the Giants that they have brass rather than brass balls?
Me either.
No, really, I have updated my blog this year: http://skaldheim.livejournal.com/tag/baseball
You may get your wish if the team continues to underperform. Sabean is in the last year of his contract, and the new owner will certainly hold him to account for the team’s performance in 2009.
However, there are quite a few signs that Sabean has improved over the last two or three years. I’m thinking especially about the draft, but also about how he has not made any, shall we say, premature trades such as the one you mention. While Sabean had a truly terrible few seasons from ‘03 to ’06 or so, there’s enough doubt as to Magowan’s influence there, plus enough good work since, to justify keeping Sabean on. On the other hand, no one would be surprised if the new owner wanted to bring in his own guy to run the front office.
No, really, I have updated my blog this year: http://skaldheim.livejournal.com/tag/baseball
What has Sabean done since the start of the season to justify his firing now? on the other hand “not a platoon” Bochy is managing like sh**. It’s not many wins or runs over a season, but thus far the guy is pissing me off. And yes, it’s in part a knee-jerk reaction, but FIRE BOCHY.
co-dad of IshikaBOOM w/AfDC.
Ishikawa, let the boy hit against lefties.
I guess I didn't mean right now
I was just thinking about the future of the Giants, and Sabean should not be a part of it, you can’t fire a gm in the first few weeks of the season, I guess he should not just be rehired
Why does Sabean always look constipated?
I think the better question is, "What has Sabean done since around 2002/3 to justify his continued employment?"
Draft is pretty much the only answer, and his biggest successes (Posey, Lincecum) fell into his lap more on account of other teams’ incompetence and penny pinching than any scouting savvy on the part of the Giants.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
I agree with your question. Sabes better step up to the plate, demote the superflous Velez, DFA Uribe and fire Bochy. Then one miracle trade and he’s rehired. Otherwise…
Since 2002/3, he’s also drafted Cain, Wilson, and other pitching dudes. His drafts after the top 10 have also turned out pretty good in the past couple of years – even Jacks seems almost okay. I liked the Crawford-Kieschnick “late” round picks. And he’s put more investment into signing young Caribbeans.
Still, unless the future is really looking bright at the end of ‘09 I think it’s probably time for a new GM.
co-dad of IshikaBOOM w/AfDC.
Ishikawa, let the boy hit against lefties.
dfa sabean
Sabes was hamstrung during the offseason by the horrible contracts he handed out in prior, worse offseasons, and by his continued obsession with having three CFs in the OF.
Sabes basically admitted at the beginning of this season that last year’s team was a joke. His fix? Renteria, Johnson, and some bullpen “help.”
I doubt that this team would have more wins under a different manager. I do wonder what the roster would look like if teh GIANTZBRASS had fired Sabean a couple of seasons ago.
"You ask for game winning hits, I give you Eugenio Velez"
by The Gene Hackman on Apr 16, 2009 12:21 PM PDT reply actions
Ramon Ortiz
I don’t care if it was just a minor league deal. What the hell was he thinking when he signed this guy? He’s been absolutely killed everywhere he’s been the last couple of years, including the minors and winter leagues, so why the hell would you even consider him? And then after a horrendous spring training, it took him until the very end of spring training to decide to keep Martinez over him. And the guy’s STILL in the organization, pitching at Fresno. What other GM would keep this washed up bum around?
Proud new dad of Edgardo errr Edgar Renteria!!!
Really? You’re upset about a no risk minor league signing of a washed up pitcher? He’s a place holder at Fresno for the kids in San Jose right now. Who cares that he’s eating innings in AAA while not blocking anyone?
It bothers me that my team’s GM thought that this guy could still pitch when absolutely nobody else did. Then when he comes to spring training and shows that everyone else was right, it makes me wonder about the GM’s ability to evaluate talent.
Proud new dad of Edgardo errr Edgar Renteria!!!
Humm. Yabu pitched fairly well last year, and Ortiz cost the Giants’ nothing. If you catching lightning in a bottle, hey great. If not, then he’s the back up to the back up to the back up to the back up while not hurting the big league club or any prospects. I can’t see your point on this one.
Medders and Miller
The minor league signings of Brandon Medders and Justin Miller appear to be good, low-risk moves. Then there’s Juan Uribe and Rich Aurilia.
more good points. I don’t get judgeing any GM for a minor league deal for a guy who’s actually in the minors.
Don’t compare Ortiz to Yabu. He was an interesting pick who was worth a shot because he didn’t have the last two years of epic fail on his resume. When Ortiz is called up here shortly because of his experience, let’s revisit this topic.
Proud new dad of Edgardo errr Edgar Renteria!!!
A few things
1) I don’t see why anyone would blame Bochy more than Sabean. The manager doesnt have too great an impact, and I never see blatantly clear mistakes done on Bochy’s part
2) Sabean clearly was unable to read this market very well. I too was fine with the Affeldt, Johnson, and Retneria moves at the time, but they all proved clearly (with the possible exception of Jonson) to be well above the market value. This is was a huge failure on Sabean’s part, that’s his job, to read the market.
3) While the farm system has certainly improved, I think a lot of that has to do with the influx of first round picks the Giants received the past few years, as well as the the draft position due to losing records. I still have not been impressed with Sabean’s track record of drafting offensive players. I love posey, but Noonan and Gillaspie are both pretty overrated in my opinion. Fairley still has promise, but hasn’t shown much so far. Don’t get me started on Jackson Williams.
The Giants’ overall cruddy play has helped regarding draft picks, but there are teams, such as the Pirates, who have squandered such opportunities in recent years. A lot of times, there is a reason that the FO has allowed the team suck enough to get the good picks in the first place.
Merkin Valdez? Manuel Mateo? A rose by any other name...
yes, but...
Teams like the pirates often miss out on better players because of budgetary reasons. They pass on the Matt Wieters of the world to go with someone more affordable (although it seems like those days are over for them) whereas the Giants just have a lot more money to work with.
The Giants are a team that is top 10, probably top 7, in resources and yet we are not a top 10 organization
by NeifiChicken on Apr 16, 2009 12:48 PM PDT up reply actions
The Giants have been spending resources on player development since 2006 (at least) when they signed AnVil and drafted Lincecum. They paid a lot for Alderson and Mad Bum and they paid Posey the largest signing bonus in MLB draft history. Don’t forget RafRod either. But that’s only a couple seasons.
The org is definitely moving in that direction. Of course, they should have started sooner, but it has started. It just hasn’t shown up yet at the major league level, where signing stopgaps like Renteria, the bullpen guys and the Big Unit have taken place. But those are short-term deals. Obviously, the Zito and Rowand deals are hamstringing the org in terms of spending, but they didn’t repeat those mistakes this offseason.
Proud adopted parent of future big league slugger Thomas Neal
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Apr 16, 2009 1:04 PM PDT up reply actions
exactly right
don’t forget about RafRod
Rafael Rodriguez: Your number 8 organizational prospect before stepping a foot on American soil and has "looked just super so far," according to Felipe Alou. "He has some bat speed and the ball comes off the bat pretty well" - K.Law.
On 1) the general manager should have final say on who starts and who does not, and if Ssabean truly is unhappy with dickhead starting velez in center instead of Randy and Nate, or having both Velez and Torres on the team, he would overrule that.
3) you can attribute to John Barr who was an excellent poach from the Dodgers and apparently learned a lot from their player development system and evaluations. You also cannot say that high draft picks means better players, just look at the Red Sox who have such an excellent scouting department without high draft picks.
Why does Sabean always look constipated?
the general manager should have final say on who starts and who does not
Hello, Mr. Micromanager!
Wisconsin: Famous for dairy, Ryan Rohlinger and not much else.
No thats how it works, if the General manager wants a player to play he will play, the General is the boss directly over the Manager
Why does Sabean always look constipated?
I tend to agree, in the long run.
The GM isn’t setting the lineup on a nightly basis, though.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
Just saying
Are you saying that Bruce Bochy is a-head of Brian Sabean?
Not trying to be a jerk, but really, I stopped reading when you didn’t know if it’s “effective” or “affective.”
I once punched a hole in a light fixture in celebration of a J.T. Snow home run. That is all.
That's why I go the safe route...
…I just write ’fective instead.
Meet my new son: Sundrendy Windster, coming soon to a minor league near you.
I disagree
I don’t know what exactly you expect from Sabean, but overall he has improved in all the aspects people were begging for here a few short years ago. He’s shown an ability to correct mistaken assumptions and adjust his philosophy. He’s not throwing away draft picks, and the farm system is looking vastly improved over the last 2-3 years. We’re obviously rebuilding now, so that’s pretty much what his job description is at this point. Other than that, he’s fielding a pretty mediocre team on the major league level, which is admittedly his fault, but the blame for that lies in the past. Nothing in his recent past demands that he be replaced. The time to fire Sabean was 3 or 4 years ago, maybe, but not now.
I’m fine with letting his contract expire, but I wouldn’t be surprised if he’s given another contract. He isn’t the worst GM, and expecting unparalleled success and brilliance is a bit of a high standard to hold him to. At times I’m more frightened by the possible replacements than by Sabean continuing to be GM. There are some pretty crappy guys out there looking for a job.
I'm as tall as Mel - why can't I hit 500 home runs?
What was the last really good move he made? Many gms have been fired over lesser offenses than Sabean has committed, and the fact that it took him so long to face the fact that he needs to rebuild has cost the Giants several seasons of competetive time, or even to realize the fact that draft matters. Sabean seems to be the last gm in the league to pick up many new developments in the league. Many people say that the giants rate defense very highly, but then why would they sign renteria over cabrera, or even renteria at all?
Why does Sabean always look constipated?
Drafting Posey, et al last year.
Signing Randy Johnson on a 1-year deal that cost only money.
Signing Howry & Affeldt, ditto.
Not trading Cain for Fielder.
No, really, I have updated my blog this year: http://skaldheim.livejournal.com/tag/baseball
I tend to give Barr more credit for the draft, and Johnson is meh because of the age/money/mediocre pitching for a few years before a great second half, and Affeldt and Howry are overpays, with howry coming off a very poor season.
Why does Sabean always look constipated?
Howry’s on a 1 year, 2.75M deal. How is that overpaying? Yes he had an off year ERA-wise, but that was the first season he had done that in a while. And Affeldt’s contract certainly isn’t hamstringing the payroll.
Semi-proud adoptive father of Scott Barnes.
Who Hired John Barr?
No, really, I have updated my blog this year: http://skaldheim.livejournal.com/tag/baseball
this
Semi-proud adoptive father of Scott Barnes.
A while because of the prolonged Bonds era. But how do we know that wasn’t in part Magowan’s doing?
Semi-proud adoptive father of Scott Barnes.
Q: What does Bonds have to do with scouting the draft?
A: Nothing. It’s a total non sequitor that seems to have been propagated by excuse-making Giants execs and apologetic sportswriters.
Also, beyond signing bonuses, I seriously doubt that Magowan had any notable input on scouting, drafting, and player development.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
my bad
thought it was a response to a different comment. But wasnt Barr with the Braves before they let him go? And if so, how is that in any way Sabean’s fault?
Semi-proud adoptive father of Scott Barnes.
It's Sabean's fault for sticking with Barr's predicessors for so long.
I doubt Barr was the first better option to come along, the Giants stunk at drafting/developing for a loooong time.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
Rentawreck cost no picks. None, just money.
I think talk about SS prospect on the farm has reached dead horse status here so suffice it to say staying in house was not an option. The Giants’ didn’t have guy the caliber of Crosby to use as leverage.
As for Cabrera The Giants had made a similar offers to Furcal as the ended up making to Renteria. The word was out what the Giants would pay for SS the might be able to field, hit for better the 325wOBA and play over 1K innings. Obviously Cabrera was not interested in those terms at the time or they would have make their interest known or they had a similar offer on the table and rejected it directly. In either case how is that Sabean’s fault?
Where is my beer & chili dog?
But the consensus around baseball seems to be that the Giants royally fucked up by signing Renteria, even at the time, it was ridiculed and mocked, for the years, the money, and the player renteria had become.
Why does Sabean always look constipated?
Consensus hated the Giants for not demanding the public build them a new home and think BLB was the only one to use PEDs- Ever.
That point aside sights that try and weight things were not so damning at the time the contract was signed. Off the top of my pointy head KLaw was favorable and so was fangraphs. Some people sighted "scouts" but you noticed they left team affiliations (and thus their possible self interests) out.
Where is my beer & chili dog?
Keith Law thought it was not so bad, and really, I think the majority of the mocking came once it became apparent how depressed the FA market had become. I’m not a Renteria fan, I thought he was done before the signing but Sabean’s major problem WRT dollars and money seems to be that Edgar was one of the first signings of the off-season. Sometimes that happens. Renteria isn’t blocking a better option, it’s a relatively short term deal and yeah, it’s more money than Cabrera, but it also saves us a pick. Hopefully Renteria can be adequate enough to get through the deal (I’ll wait to freak out if he’s still a problem in July).
Proud parent of future rookie of the year, Gerald Posey!
by GiantsFanInExile on Apr 16, 2009 4:32 PM PDT up reply actions
It's true that the majority of the issue is based on what happened the market later
But Sabean is in a much, much, much better position than anyone of us, and probably anyone in the media, to judge the financial aspects of baseball and the free agent market.
That said, Sabean’s background is scouting rather than business (which would be a reason for his mistake, not an excuse).
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
I guess so, I just seem to remember the theme of most of the off-season reporting being surprise at how depressed the market was, both from long-time baseball journalists and front-office people. I don’t think anyone thought Abreu and Burrell were going to sign for as low as they did going into the off-season, for example. Sabean probably spent what he felt he could get away with and not hurt the team, whereas people who waited had the benefit of what they would pay WRT what others had paid. Again, it happens sometimes when you go first.
Proud parent of future rookie of the year, Gerald Posey!
by GiantsFanInExile on Apr 16, 2009 4:48 PM PDT up reply actions
The Giants, in recent years, have made a habit of moving fast in the FA market.
It hasn’t bit them in the arse every season (though, between lost draft picks, missed opportunities, and the current market collapse, it’s hurt plenty), but I don’t think it’s ever paid dividends.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
Different take
I felt that Edgar Renteria would bounce back with a decent season this year. But I didn’t like his signing, since I felt it took up too much salary for a signing that wouldn’t put the Giants over the top.
I felt at the time that the move would be good only if the Giants followed it with two or three big moves. Why sign Edgar Renteria but not Manny Ramirez or Adam Dunn?
Do you think that signing Renteria prevented them financially from signing Manny or Dunn? Or are you saying why spend the money on Renteria if you aren’t also going to spend money on another FA?
Proud parent of future rookie of the year, Gerald Posey!
by GiantsFanInExile on Apr 17, 2009 11:28 AM PDT up reply actions
I agree with this
it was kind of a half measure.
Renteria, if he still can play (remains to be seen) might have gotten this team into 82 win territory. Clearly, they needed someone who could ACTUALLY hit (and presumably play 1B or 3B) to actually become somewhat threatening.
What did Dunn sign for? $2/20? Pat Burrell even less.
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
-------
PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game currently in early planning stages.
yeah, but Renteria was done very early in the offseason. Who didn’t think that much more was coming? Who thought at the time that the only additional help the offense would be getting the rest of the offseason was Uribe and Aurilia, especially when the team seemed to be on the fringes of CC and Manny, which meant they had another 20 million or so to possibly play with.
Proud new dad of Edgardo errr Edgar Renteria!!!
a bad day to compliment him for signing Howry, that’s for sure. As for “not trading Cain for Fielder,” what makes you think he didn’t try to do just that? All the rumors this offseason seemed to think it was the Brewers who didn’t want to make that trade, not the Giants.
Proud new dad of Edgardo errr Edgar Renteria!!!
I think the real issue here is that you are comparing Sabean to the half-dozen or so GMs in baseball who are clearly ahead of the pack. There are 30 teams, and I would consider Sabean above average. Sabean is the last GM to get the memos? Behind Bavasi, Littlefield, and the various and sundry guys responsible for driving the Pirates, Astros, Orioles, and such teams into the basement for years at a time? I’m not trying to defend Sabean as brilliant or ahead of the curve, but he’s capable, and he’s not ruining the team.
3 years ago, yeah, I might be chiming in with a few reasons for why Sabean should be fired, but he’s learned from some mistakes. You don’t fire people for mistakes they made years ago.
I'm as tall as Mel - why can't I hit 500 home runs?
but see serviceable is not good enough, the fact that he is not as bad as Bavasi, Littlefield and the like is not good enough. The Giants are a major market team and need to doing everything they can to contend not just try to catch on at the end.
Why does Sabean always look constipated?
Wow I offered one up in the fanpost, and I can think of a lot of other people who could run the Giants better than Sabean has
Why does Sabean always look constipated?
If you think the Giants are going to try to get DePodesta, I suggest you think again. Whatever his skills, his communication amongst the Dodgers front office seems to have ruined his chance at a GM job until he’s proven himself again. And if you hadn’t noticed, he was asked to change his channel of communication in SD, too, after reporting directly to Sandy Alderson since he’d come there. Fair or not, the Giants won’t sign him. Who are these others you speak of? I can only think of a few that offer clear, obvious upgrades, and they aren’t guys the Giants can get right now. I’m sure there are some well qualified candidates out there, but do you trust the Giants office to get the right guy? What if they just lure Ned Colletti away from LA?
I’m fine with Sabean or a reasonable level-headed other GM, as I think we’ve got some real talent on the way. A new GM bringing a change of philosophy is likely to be a win-now move – I don’t want to see that. I like our future, and don’t want to mortgage it.
I'm as tall as Mel - why can't I hit 500 home runs?
To me, when I see the Giants “need to do everything they can to contend,” I translate that into them needing to make short-sighted free agent signings and trade away minor leaguers for established vets. That seems to me to be the surest way to contend right now. Think about it, our top four prospects are in Single A ball. What are they going to do for the big club this year?
I don’t think that’s actually what you want, but I can’t help but think you don’t have the patience for a team trying to rebuild itself.
I'm thinking but nothing's happening.
just wondering:
When did the rebuild start?
When should have the rebuild started?
"You ask for game winning hits, I give you Eugenio Velez"
by The Gene Hackman on Apr 16, 2009 3:40 PM PDT up reply actions
By everything they can to contend I meant that they need to scour all avenues for talent, they are starting to that but by now its too late as every other team has caught on. To me the model should be The Red Sox
Why does Sabean always look constipated?
Honest question – how much more, annually, is the Red Sox budget than the Giants?
Proud parent of future rookie of the year, Gerald Posey!
by GiantsFanInExile on Apr 17, 2009 11:30 AM PDT up reply actions
According to CBS Sports (BUY CBS PRODUCTS AND/OR SERVICES!!!) Boston’s payroll last year was $133M, 4th in the league, and the Giants were at $77M which put them 17th in the league. So the Sox’ budget is roughly 3 Zitos larger than the Giants’.
Meet my new son: Sundrendy Windster, coming soon to a minor league near you.
by EliminateMe on Apr 17, 2009 12:30 PM PDT up reply actions
That pretty much confirms what I thought. Can the Giants even implement the ‘Red Sox’ model without significantly increasing their annual budget? Seems the ability to dump cash whenever they want (FA signings, draft, etc.) is as much a part of the Boston model as savvy GM moves and scouting.
Proud parent of future rookie of the year, Gerald Posey!
by GiantsFanInExile on Apr 17, 2009 1:58 PM PDT up reply actions
sure, the giants can start to implement that kind of model. The difference between the Yankees and Red Sox is that they can make huge FA mistakes, and not be bound by them for the lenght of the contract. Middle and Lower revenue teams cannot. They can also draft 1st round talent in the 4th and 5th rounds for players who say they will not sign, then back up a dumptruck full of money to their house to convince them otherwise.
Exactly
Proud parent of future rookie of the year, Gerald Posey!
by GiantsFanInExile on Apr 17, 2009 6:22 PM PDT up reply actions
So are you saying the Giants can start to implement that or being sarcatsic? Obviously we can’t go ahead and completely go for it, but it doesn’t mean we cannot start to pattern our organization after them, the way they evaluate talent, and with the way the Giants have been handing out bonuses lately they clearly can pick the first round talents who seem to be tough signs.
Why does Sabean always look constipated?
Just curious:
You say “Many gms have been fired over lesser offenses than Sabean has committed.” Which GMs, and what were their offenses?
Forsan et heac olim meminisse iuvabit... Maybe.
by Mayor of 311 on Apr 17, 2009 8:50 AM PDT up reply actions
2 things the gints need
1) Guys that throw strikes
2) Guys that take pitches
2a) (Bonus: DINGERZ.EXE)
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
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PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game currently in early planning stages.
All A-Loney
I thought it was ironic that the Giants’ announcers criticized James Loney for taking pitches the other night. All he did was drive in two runs with walks, including the game winner.
I felt they were legit criztisims, though. Loney worked the count to a hitters count, then looked at what looked on TV to be fat fastballs. That’s the whole point of working the count in your favor. It worked this time, but perhaps he’s being overly patient. Ted Williams and Charlie Lau were constantly harping on this when they discussed hitting. Make the pitcher throw your pitch, then crush it. Not watch it go by.
Of course, this could all be moot because the TV angle could’ve made the pitches look much more hittable than they actually were
Problem
The problem here is that we don’t know what Loney was looking for when he was ahead in the count.
In addition, Brian Wilson throws about 62% strikes. That likely indicates the probability of his throwing two strikes in a row is less than 50%. By taking the next two pitches after 3-1, Loney likely gave himself better than a 50% chance of driving in the winning run.
Even if he automatically took the first pitch, he gave himself something like a 38% chance of winning the game on that pitch and perhaps an added 25% chance by taking the approach on the 3-2 pitch that you recommended on the 3-1 toss.
By taking the 3-1 pitch, James likely gave himself a 60% or better chance of winning the game. Once he took strike two, his chances went down, of course. But between the chance of getting a hit and getting a walk, they were still close to 50/.50.
I didn’t see James’ first walk, but on the second, the announcers really didn’t understand the situation. They have a baseball mentality, not an intelligent one.
The two often coincide. But here I don’t think they did. Brian Wilson had a lot of pressure on him to throw strikes. The odds were likely against his throwing two in a row.
Even if a hitter gets just the pitch he’s looking for, he’s probably at best a .500 hitter. Against Wilson, that might be closer to .400. By automatically taking the 3-1 pitch and then taking a realistic approach to the full count offering, Loney likely gave himself closer to a 60% chance of success.
In a different situation I might well agree with you. In this particular situation, I don’t. And that is why baseball is 90% half mental.
I am pretty sure
that if you never swung at _GIANTS_PITCHER_ ’s offerings, ever, you would probably win the game.
Well, maybe the would adjust with BP fastballs, so you could swing when the count was 0-2.
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
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PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game currently in early planning stages.
It's "effective"
Unless you mean that Sabean can no longer make sympathetic trades or passionate FA signings.
Adoptive parent of Noah Lowry. Because he was awesome once, and, goddammit, he shall be awesome once again!
I hope.
Seasonal Effective Disorder
The sadness that is produced by watching an ineffective team built by Brian Sabean.
Sergio Romo: striking out professional hitters since 2005. And winner of the 2012 NL Fireman of the Year Award!
That's pretty good! Definitely a joke worth making.
Forsan et heac olim meminisse iuvabit... Maybe.
by Mayor of 311 on Apr 17, 2009 8:51 AM PDT up reply actions
DePo's trades for Ross and Werth?
I’ll give you Werth, but Ross was pretty much useless to the Dodgers and didn’t become a productive player until 2007.
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
If Dustin Pedroia played in Seattle, not many people would be talking about him.
This thread is great
Whether you agree or disagree with the points, lots of great baseball arguments without a bunch of people busting in with stupid lines and photos. Guess this is why baseball fricken rules!
I apologize
I apologize for joining this discussion late, but while I haven’t provided any pictures, hopefully I’ve done a good job of busting in with stupid lines. Think of how well I could have busted in if I were a woman!
When you say "busting in with...photos"
You must be referring to photos like this:
Outtake of Mickey Morandini’s 1994 press guide photoshoot:
I agree; that was so irritating.
Stupid is as Ruben Rivera does...
Motorized Picnic Table:
A level-headed person thought this was a good idea, too.
thoughts?
Initially, after reading this post: “I’ve awakened after being sucked into a vortex and transported back to every knee-jerk FanPost/blog following seasons ’03, ’04, ’05, ’06, ’07, and ’08!”
This isnotan overreaction to the start of the season
Is what I assume you meant to say. Because that’s exactly what it is. Firing Sabean right now would accomplish exactly nothing. Sure, it might make you feel better emotionally for a minute, but it won’t raise the team OBP one-millionth of a percentage point (which, at this point, I’d take.)
Stupid is as Ruben Rivera does...
Pie and Hill are not diamonds in the rough. And nearly the majority of the people here WANTED McPherson the last 2 years and that was before he even proved his back was healthy. Now that we acquire him AFTER he hits over 40 HR’s in AAA people have a problem with it?
People really need to analyze situations before they make such asinine comments. Like about his inability to pull of a trade. The Giants only position of strength to make trades is by dealing pitching. And Sabean was reluctant to part with any ML caliber pitching because it’s not like we have great depth in the upper minors to supplant getting rid of a Sanchez or Cain. What was considered a strength going into the season has already not been one. And injuries have already been a problem too. And while Renteria looks terrible so far, it’s still only two weeks into the season. Aaron Rowand started last year off pretty well and looked like an A ball player by the end of the year. Have some goddamn patience. Renteria is already guaranteed to be an upgrade over Bocock and a sub Mendoza hitting Vizquel. Everyone wants to play the young kids, well they finally are and you’re getting exactly what you asked for. Young players are inconsistent and need to learn to adjust to the league as it adjusts to them. This is accomplished by gaining more experience and playing time. So while Sandoval may look terrible now, by June he could be hitting .290 or better.
And DePodesta was run out of town because he ruined what had been a playoff team and was 12 games under .500 the year after, trotting out the likes of Mike Edwards and friends in a ML lineup.
Renteria is already guaranteed to be an upgrade over Bocock and a sub Mendoza hitting Vizquel.
As the lone (?) advocate of re-signing Vizquel for 2009, I’m going to crow about this while I still have the chance: Omar has an OBP of .556 so far this year, and is presumably still playing the same spectacular defense.
he is also mentoring Elvis.
"You ask for game winning hits, I give you Eugenio Velez"
by The Gene Hackman on Apr 17, 2009 1:30 PM PDT up reply actions
So when Mr. Andrus hits homeruns
….will the radio announcers say “Elvis has left the yard”????
Sergio Romo: striking out professional hitters since 2005. And winner of the 2012 NL Fireman of the Year Award!
But wasn’t Vizquel signed specifically as a back up to Andrus, while Renteria was signed as a starter? Do you think Omar could pull off a whole season at SS with similar numbers/defense? If we had a player as good as Andrus for him to mentor, sure, but absent of that…?
Proud parent of future rookie of the year, Gerald Posey!
by GiantsFanInExile on Apr 17, 2009 2:14 PM PDT up reply actions
But it's only 9 games =(
That’s not an excuse for how badly Renteria has performed thus far this year, but can we give him a few months before we break out the “I told you so’s.” Digging this up in the archives, http://www.mccoveychronicles.com/2008/12/27/702799/randy-johnson-is-a-giant-a we have a whopping 87% in favor. No one has yet to bring Johnson up despite him having a bigger contract and even worse results. Bottom line, everyone stay calm!
DePodesta is also a major part of a Padres front-office that has not only completely wiffed in putting together a quality farm system but has a major league team that is beyond horrid. (For all those who point at what they’ve done this year, it’s April.) I mean, talk about behind the curve – they just started investing in Latin America and despite what Funson says about them having a top-five farm system, they are consistently ripped for taking ‘safe’ players in the draft who most believe can’t even live up to the ‘average player’ descriptor at any level, not just the major leagues. Why would we want any exec from such a backward org running the Giants?
Proud parent of future rookie of the year, Gerald Posey!
by GiantsFanInExile on Apr 17, 2009 2:12 PM PDT up reply actions
What people miss
What people often miss with Paul DePodesta is that while the Dodgers certainly had an off year in his last season there, he pared over $20 million in payroll, which set Ned Colletti up to spend money to make the Dodgers winners again.If Ned were a little smarter, the Dodgers would be REALLY tough.Also, Paul’s predecessor Dan Evans doesn’t get nearly enough credit. It was Dan who drafted most of the fine young players who are now leading the Bums. Colletti has benefitted greatly from the work of his two predecessors.
More DePo
As for what DePodesta has done for the Padres, they have at least three present or former GM’s there, so he really doesn’t have any power. Also, the Padres have one of the lowest payrolls in the game.
To be honest, I don’t think Paul has ever truly been given a fair chance. He was panned for trading Guillermo Mota, Juan Encarnacion and Paul LoDuca for Brad Penny and a pair of others who didn’t pan out. In retrospect, he saved a bunch of money, traded Mota at just the right time, missed out on one year from LoDuca (who ultimately was replaced by the better Russell Martin) and lost Encarnacion to a mediocre career.
DePo’s top acquisitions in his year and two thirds with the Dodgers were Jeff Kent, Derek Lowe, Penny and Milton Bradley. He didn’t really give up too much to acquire Penny and Bradley, and he didn’t overpay for either Kent or Lowe.
Meanwhile, Penny finished third in the NL Cy Young voting in 2007.
The biggest accomplishment DePodesta made with the Dodgers was in paring payroll while still leaving a solid, young core intact.
It's amazing to me
How much of a hue and cry went up when the Dodgers trade LoDuca, and how utterly silent the sports page was when it came out that the team got rid of him because he was roiding. I don’t tthink it’s an exaggeration to say that the irrational negative press from the Loduca trade hastened Depodesta’s departure.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
Plus
LoDuca wasn’t even that good anyway, one of the most overrated players in recent Dodgers history. The trade was panned because the teams steroid dealer was apparently the “heart and soul” of the dodgers.
Why does Sabean always look constipated?
we love to make fun of Colletti, but I think this offseason he greatly surpassed Sabean. He waited on Manny and got him for the amount he wanted, he got Orlando Hudson at an unbelievable discount, and he got Furcal off the prohibitive number that forced the Giants to chase Renteria, and got him back with the Dodgers. In fact, whenever I look at the Dodgers I hate them more because so many of their players were rumored to have the Giants’ interest this offseason. It’s like Colletti got a hold of Sabean’s wish list and beat him to everyone on it. He even signed Will Ohman just a couple of days after the Giants’ expressed interest. Casey Blake was a player Sabean was interested in, and even though I didn’t want him, he too wound up with the Dodgers.
I have to blame the owners for this as well. It seems pretty obvious to me that players prefer the bright lights and warm weather of LA to San Francisco, and the Giants’ owners have to realize this and offer free agents MORE than the Dodgers are offering, not less. Instead they fall short on every player that both teams are interested in.
Proud new dad of Edgardo errr Edgar Renteria!!!
Other than Manny, about whom I’m deeply conflicted, I’m glad the Dodgers got all those guys. I don’t think any of us will like Furcal at the end of that 4 year contract. He’s a speed guy coming off major back surgery playing a premium defensive position. Just dosn’t sound like a good 4 year bet to me. Will Ohman…eh. Whatever. Servicable bullpen lefty. Rather see Hinshaw learn how to throw strikes. (I’d also like a pretty pony. Wonder which I’ll get first).
Ned won by waiting out the market, but...
Weren’t the owners seriously beat up by the housing bubble? I was under the impression that Colletti waited the market mostly because the McCourts were being stingy/prudent with their dwindling millions.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
I will always remember where I was when the great Brian Sabean debate of 09 went down.
"Catcher are base running. Hitters are offense."
Only [hella] games left until the end of Zito's contract.
Adoptive father of "Poncho" Villalona: This Angel don't fly. Nothing about him is light.
I really have enjoyed this thread
There have been few pictures, no hijacks or Rush or butt-pee references, until after i post this and some asshat decides to. There has been good old fashioned debate and before this gets bumped off the recent fanposts page and no one looks at it, I want to say thank you to everyone who debated, I really had fun arguing with all you guys. Best blog site/ internet fan forum on the web!
Why does Sabean always look constipated?
Definitely
Sorry if anything came off offensive, I enjoyed the friendly banter.
by SeeingStars on Apr 17, 2009 11:12 PM PDT up reply actions
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