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Around SBN: The Gift Of The 2003 Tigers

OK: Why are anabolic steroids so bad for baseball?

Were anabolic steroids banned from baseball in the early 2000's?  You know,  the years that Bonds and ARod supposedly  took anabolic steroids.Were they  banned like the moral indignity called "gambling on baseball games that one manages" ala a certain potential hall of famer?  Getting away somewhat from baseball rules,  anabolic steroids, at least some of them, were/are hormones, available as drugs that were/are legally prescribed by physicians for certain medical indications.   What if some of the players who tested positive in 2003 were prescribed anabolic steroids by their physician as a legit therapy to aid in the healing of a skeletal muscle injury? Would we not hate them so much?   OK, ARod's cousin was/is not a licensed physician, at least not in this country.  It seems that in  the reality described by Jose Conseco,  he somewhat downplays the legit steroid prescription as the preferred method that players obtained these federally controlled performance enhancers.  

We all know that labs like Balco have been accused of making new improved, and probably not legally approved substances which essentially  were/are anabolic steroids.  New drugs must undergo years of research to prove that they are safe and effective before the FDA allows them on the market.  But we still need to know why these substances are banned.

I think there are a few reason's besides the fact that they are usually obtained by less than optimal and legally legit methods.   The drugs have been demonized, righty or wrongly as having terrible side-effects.  Some of those proferred include premature heart attacks,  "Roid rage" ,  cancer,  benign growths in the liver, infertility, scrotal shrinkage, head enlargement, weight gain,  obnoxious behavior, premature death, just to name a few.  Lyle Alzado blamed his disease and his then impending premature demise on anabolic steroids.   Recently, it has been reported that several monstorously large pro-wresters have had some of the worst of these bad effects. 

But how many baseball players so far, have had these horrible effects?  Is one of the bad effects lying to Congress?  These substances have been around for a long time.  Just ask California's  Governor.  Could be some players from as far back as the 1960's or 1970's could have been indulging.  

Maybe its the massive amounts some players take that makes it unsafe.  You know, like taking 2 tylenol can help your fever, or maybe your pain, but taking a bottle full of them can kill you.   Maybe its taking street drugs, because they are so hard to get otherwise that makes them so unsafe.  Are all these baseball players going to be dropping dead soon from these anabolic steroids?  Or have these substances been not as dangerous as we have been led to believe?  I don't know the answer to that, but maybe some folks hanging out in the Cove have some real scientific facts.

One must wonder, if a surgery can enhance your performance, (a legal surgery), why shouldn't a legal drug be able to enhance your performance?  Obviously people aren't getting black market surgeries, but the black market becomes the method of distribution for anabolic steroids precisely because they are banned.  Are surgeons more ethical than pharmacologists?  Ok stupid question, but I get to write pharmacologist.    If normal doses of anabolic steroids are relatively safe: At least as safe as surgery, and may even help a player heal from surgery, why should they be illegal or banned from major league players who are given a true risk assessment and then prescribed the drug by their physician?

Ok, so far I haven't even convinced myself of the above arguments, but they are certainly offered as legit arguments.  Then comes the one argument that says, "What about the kids?"  These players are role models, and kids, (those under 18) might take these substances to basicly cheat, and clearly we do not know the long term effects of these drugs when given to teens or preteens.  We sometimes assume that the pressure on these kids to perform, and be better then the next kid, would make them succumb to taking these anabolic steroids.  This becomes an even greater risk if their MLB baseball hero is also taking steroids.  So baseball bans these drugs as a responsible business to protect the kids. 

So, dangerous side effects, cheating, unfair competitive advantage, black market distribution, and sending a bad message to kids, are all among the reasons baseball bans these substances.  Maybe we also do not like the idea that a little magic pill, or injection can make a baseball player better and cause the resultant player to break records which supposedly otherwise would not have been broken. 

I am very unclear on whether these substances should be banned from baseball if they are legitimately prescibed by a licensed physician for an appropriate medical indication.   On the other hand, if the drugs are obtained on the black market, and are being solely used for the purpose of a competitive advantage, without any otherwise legitimate medical indication for their use,  I would probably go along with the ban.  

Poll
Should anabolic steroids which are presribed by a licensed physician for a legitmate indication be banned by baseball?
Yes
24 votes
No
29 votes
Jose Conseco is still alive so how bad can these drugs be?
13 votes
These drugs killed Lyle Alzado and should never be used.
7 votes

73 votes | Poll has closed

This FanPost is reader-generated, and it does not necessarily reflect the views of McCovey Chronicles. If the author uses filler to achieve the minimum word requirement, a moderator may edit the FanPost for his or her own amusement.

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Moral indignity? Managers betting on baseball is a great deal worse than that.
Fuck Pete Rose.

Fred Lewis can stand under my umbrella.
31 May 2007, 21:38 EST - the last time Matteh's career W-L wasn't below.500
We are at war with Los Angeles. We have always been at war with Los Angeles.

by S.F. Giangst on Mar 10, 2009 6:11 AM PDT reply actions  

Rose has paid his dues

Yeah, it was bad for him to bet on games he was managing, but why can’t he be allowed in the HOF already? Aren’t your HOF credentials based on the way you played the game? Can anyone dispute that his playing numbers aren’t hall worthy?

I’m sick and tired of the HOF acting like it’s some sort of moral country club, only allowing in those that fit their moral standards despite their obvious talent (which, of course, is a huge hypocrisy considering the majority of the early players in the HOF were outspoken racists). The HOF should be a history of the game more than a “best players club”, in my opinion. When I go there, I want to learn about the history of baseball and the people that impacted the game, for better or for worse. We as fans are smart enough to decide for ourselves whether or not we like all the men as players or not.

STEVE HOLM! refuses to be the odd man out.

by UnleashTheGore on Mar 10, 2009 7:10 AM PDT up reply actions  

i should have worded this part differently:

(which, of course, is a huge hypocrisy considering the majority of the early players in the HOF were probably racist)

STEVE HOLM! refuses to be the odd man out.

by UnleashTheGore on Mar 10, 2009 7:15 AM PDT up reply actions  

probably?

Somebody already mentioned Ty Cobb’s in the Hall of Fame.
What’s even worse is that Kenesaw Mountain Landis almost single-handedly blocked black players for 24 years, and he’s in there too. (not to mention his getting Jack Johnson banned from boxing for dating a white woman)

by SammyG on Mar 10, 2009 10:32 PM PDT up reply actions  

The numbers are fine. The conduct is not. Rose called into question the integrity of the game. If the fan can’t believe he’s seeing fair competition, it’s not sport, it’s sports entertainment. With regards to Rose or any other player or manager, nothing less than baseball’s version of the death penalty will do. It is a very good deterrent…

Fred Lewis can stand under my umbrella.
31 May 2007, 21:38 EST - the last time Matteh's career W-L wasn't below.500
We are at war with Los Angeles. We have always been at war with Los Angeles.

by S.F. Giangst on Mar 10, 2009 7:59 AM PDT up reply actions  

Yup

If I wanted fixed outcomes and steroids, I’d just watch the WWE

My adopted Giant: "Raptor Jesus" Guzman

by Goofus on Mar 10, 2009 12:40 PM PDT up reply actions  

Ha Ha H…

Wait; what?

Stupid is as Ruben Rivera does...

by bkrhater on Mar 10, 2009 1:22 PM PDT up reply actions  

FWIW the WWE has been doing steroid testing for a while now.

New to McCovey Chronicles? Check out the McFAQs! McFAQ I & II
comics | art | Nattowear

by Natto on Mar 10, 2009 2:32 PM PDT up reply actions  

Really? Are the test results fixed?

My adopted Giant: "Raptor Jesus" Guzman

by Goofus on Mar 10, 2009 2:40 PM PDT up reply actions  

Meaning everyone should be doing steroids?

by chilibean_3 on Mar 10, 2009 2:55 PM PDT up reply actions  

Why do you REALLY think The Rock isn't wrestling anymore?

“Dwayne, we got back the results of your steroid test, and I’m afraid the results were negative. If you’re not using, you’re not into wrestling. You’re out.”

I'm thinking but nothing's happening.

by JRPhillips on Mar 10, 2009 2:58 PM PDT up reply actions  

Pete Rose - Hall of Fame A-Hole

Pete Rose has more base-hits than anyone else who ever played the game. HE SHOULD BE IN THE HALL OF FAME.

There should be a plaque detailing his amazing career between the lines, and also a plaque explaining why he will NEVER be able to step onto the field again.

I too am sick of the ‘moral police’ deciding who gets into the Hall. If you have the numbers to get in, YOU GET IN. PERIOD.

But right next to Clemens, A-Rod, and Bonds H.O.F. plaques – there should also be the reality of what else they brought to the game. Better or worse.

Pete Rose REALLY wants to be reinstated so that he can make a couple million dollars a year as a manager. That should never be allowed to happen….for, I hope, very obvious reasons.

Charlie Hayes ate my homework

by glenallen hill's waterpipe on Mar 10, 2009 10:17 AM PDT up reply actions  

THIS !!

If you have the numbers to get in, YOU GET IN. PERIOD.

(cough,cough TY COBB cough)

"Just take the ball and throw it where you want to. Throw strikes. Home plate don't move."-Leroy "Satchel" Paige

My adopted son Matt Downs . Utility Infielder with a Bat !

by nvsfg on Mar 10, 2009 8:20 PM PDT up reply actions  

Why aren’t the moral police more outraged at Gaylord Perry & Don Sutton who wantonly broke baseball’s rules on a continual basis and then bragged about it? Total Hipocrisy.

Why isn't Sabean held accountable for leading the Giants into many years of mediocrity???

by oldrips on Mar 11, 2009 8:20 AM PDT up reply actions  

Or millions on the lecture circuit (as if) or at least hundreds of thousands more from endorsements, autographs, etc.

For the record, I have no problem with Pete Rose being recognized for his accomplishments as a player, providing he never bet on baseball as a player. But having been busted for betting, I don’t want him to make a single cent off his past association with the game.

Fred Lewis can stand under my umbrella.
31 May 2007, 21:38 EST - the last time Matteh's career W-L wasn't below.500
We are at war with Los Angeles. We have always been at war with Los Angeles.

by S.F. Giangst on Mar 11, 2009 7:46 AM PDT up reply actions  

RUTH DID IT ON BEER AND HOTDOGS!!!1

by xanthan on Mar 10, 2009 7:17 AM PDT reply actions  

AND FLOOZIES!

When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realized God doesn’t work that way, so I stole one and prayed for forgiveness. - Emo Philips

Neglectful father of David Quinowski

by marcello on Mar 10, 2009 8:59 AM PDT up reply actions  

AND FLOO…

OH.

Stupid is as Ruben Rivera does...

by bkrhater on Mar 10, 2009 10:10 AM PDT up reply actions  

And sheep testosterone.

..so allow me to present Tim Lincecum and Matt Cain as two sweet, sweet bottles of warming hooch.

by Cookyman on Mar 10, 2009 11:48 AM PDT up reply actions  

Awww… I was hoping that sentence wouldn’t end with the syllybles “osterone.”

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on Mar 10, 2009 11:00 PM PDT up reply actions  

Do you think he cheated on his sheep test?

Catcher are base running. Hitters are offense.
Only [hella] games left until the end of Zito's contract.

by thehavenot on Mar 11, 2009 10:54 AM PDT up reply actions  

Just a little, though.

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on Mar 11, 2009 9:07 PM PDT up reply actions  

YEAH!

And during prohibition, when beer was illegal! THINK OF THE CHILDREN! Ban Ruth from the HOF! Give the home run crown to….uh…..Home Run Baker! Yeah!

Wait…..that wasn’t your point, was it?

I'm as tall as Mel - why can't I hit 500 home runs?

by Ott on Mar 10, 2009 11:58 AM PDT up reply actions  

What would Brian Boitano do?

Stupid is as Ruben Rivera does...

by bkrhater on Mar 10, 2009 7:48 AM PDT reply actions  

He’d make a plan and follow through.
That’s what Brian Boitano’d do.

by Lars The Wanderer on Mar 10, 2009 8:12 AM PDT up reply actions  

and then he’d kick an ass or two…

by Johnny Disaster on Mar 10, 2009 9:30 AM PDT up reply actions  

Then maybe, just maybe...

He’d call all the kids in town,
And tell them to unite for true
That’s what Brian Boitano’d do.

Stupid is as Ruben Rivera does...

by bkrhater on Mar 10, 2009 10:12 AM PDT up reply actions  

I want this V-chip out of me.
It has stunted my vocabulary.

I'm thinking but nothing's happening.

by JRPhillips on Mar 10, 2009 10:50 AM PDT up reply actions  

For Wendy I’ll be an activist too
Cause that’s what Brian Boitano’d do

GROUGTHINK ALERT

by groug on Mar 10, 2009 11:45 AM PDT up reply actions  

bedazzled

are rhinestones a PED?

Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."

by natteringnabob on Mar 10, 2009 10:14 AM PDT reply actions  

reply fail

sorry team

Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."

by natteringnabob on Mar 10, 2009 10:15 AM PDT up reply actions  

If you’re this guy, they can only enhance performance.

Stupid is as Ruben Rivera does...

by bkrhater on Mar 10, 2009 10:20 AM PDT up reply actions  

I think the question you’re getting at is, Should anabolic steroids be illegal, not just in sports, but state- or country-wide? If so, that’s a question that would take far more space than any of us have time to use (I think).

To answer your subject-line question, they’re “bad for baseball” for the same reason spit balls and sand paper or any other method of cheating are bad for baseball: they give an unmitigated advantage to the person employing the prohibited tactic.

Whether or not it’s realisitic to believe, sports are supposed to provide an intermediary through which those of equal ability compete at a given activity. If one of those participants then uses a performance enhancer to which others aren’t allowed equal, LEGAL access, it skews the results.

Also, what surgeries are being performed that allow for superior performance in sports?

Stupid is as Ruben Rivera does...

by bkrhater on Mar 10, 2009 10:35 AM PDT reply actions  

Also, what surgeries are being performed that allow for superior performance in sports?

It has been suggested that pitchers who have TJ surgery come back better than they used to be. I don’t buy it, but I’ve read it in a couple of places. Also:

sports are supposed to provide an intermediary through which those of equal ability compete at a given activity.

I’d change “equal ability” to “equal opportunity”.

by Lars The Wanderer on Mar 10, 2009 10:42 AM PDT up reply actions  

True...

Stupid is as Ruben Rivera does...

by bkrhater on Mar 10, 2009 10:49 AM PDT up reply actions  

Of course, the whole argument is contingent upon unprescribed anabolic steroid use being illegal. If it ever were to become legal, the original question is legitimate.

Stupid is as Ruben Rivera does...

by bkrhater on Mar 10, 2009 10:53 AM PDT up reply actions  

Lasik eye surgery has been pointed to as a “performance enhancing surgery.” I don’t actually have any knowledge of if it’s actually better then glasses.

by Scottsdale on Mar 10, 2009 11:02 AM PDT up reply actions  

Nothing’s better than glasses.

Stupid is as Ruben Rivera does...

by bkrhater on Mar 10, 2009 11:05 AM PDT up reply actions  

New to McCovey Chronicles? Check out the McFAQs! McFAQ I & II
comics | art | Nattowear

by Natto on Mar 10, 2009 11:15 AM PDT up reply actions  

LOL'd

My little guy wears glasses. That’s why I said nothing is better than glasses.

Oh, and the boy standing next to the kid with the glasses really likes them, and him.

Stupid is as Ruben Rivera does...

by bkrhater on Mar 10, 2009 11:20 AM PDT up reply actions  

They look well.

Formerly Revolution1 || Status: Fetal Position until April || Barry Zito: Throws Canyons Mildly Half-OK

by GiantBrass on Mar 10, 2009 12:31 PM PDT up reply actions  

Stupid is as Ruben Rivera does...

by bkrhater on Mar 10, 2009 1:43 PM PDT up reply actions  

I just realized he’s saying it to himself. Photoshop fail. :^(

Stupid is as Ruben Rivera does...

by bkrhater on Mar 11, 2009 5:05 AM PDT up reply actions  

Not that I care much about steroids, but I can say that there is no freaking way that anabolic steroids can lead to tumorigenesis. Whoever told Lyle Alzado that was either lying to him or stupid.

by Scottsdale on Mar 10, 2009 11:06 AM PDT reply actions  

It was his own theory – he’s obviously not a doctor and didn’t know what he was talking about. Wikipedia agrees with you – it’s impossible that steroids caused his death.

by Missing Barry on Mar 10, 2009 12:33 PM PDT up reply actions  

I want the best baseball players science can create!

Baseball is a lot like life. The line drives are caught, the squibbles go for base hits. It's an unfair game. -Rod Kanehl

by j14 on Mar 10, 2009 12:11 PM PDT reply actions  

I believe it was Jeff Fletcher over at Bay Bridge Baseball that made a point that’s stuck with me on this issue. We know football players were using them, we can understand WHY baseball players used them, etc:

The reason for the outrage in baseball (and at baseball players), however, is because of the perception that it changed the nature of the game. “Juiced-up” hitters are perceived to hit home runs at an unnatural rate, thus altering the way the game is played. I think it was a very profound point on the steroids issue. John at OBM also makes good points that many of the writers are outraged because they are protecting their childhood memories and heroes – the past always looks better in hindsight and they don’t see how this generation of players can measure up to the players they grew up with. Some deep thoughts on human pyschology.

As for the steroids issue itself, the whole thing is so absurd I’m not even going to get into it. I could write 10 pages of continuous typing on it without even stopping to think.

by Missing Barry on Mar 10, 2009 12:31 PM PDT reply actions  

Nobody seems to be too worked up about the juiced up baseball which contributed a hell of a lot more to increased HRs than did juiced up players.

Why isn't Sabean held accountable for leading the Giants into many years of mediocrity???

by oldrips on Mar 11, 2009 8:23 AM PDT up reply actions  

This is something I’ve always found interesting. Despite all the speculation from fans and writers (which I readily take part in), it doesn’t seem that anyone actually has any information on any changes made to the ball over the years. I’ve never seen a single writer with so much as a knowledgeable anonymous source report anything on this subject. It seems a lot of people want to know, so you would think SOMEONE out there would find out. The information has to exist, right? Am I missing something here?

by Missing Barry on Mar 11, 2009 9:31 AM PDT up reply actions  

It’s impossible, the needle would just bend!

by microwave donut on Mar 11, 2009 10:44 AM PDT up reply actions  

Nobody knows for sure because Selig and his cronies don’t want to make this information public. Many players have commented over the years that the basball is definitely different than it used to be. They use it every day. Don’t you think that they’s be the first to notice?

Why isn't Sabean held accountable for leading the Giants into many years of mediocrity???

by oldrips on Mar 11, 2009 1:10 PM PDT up reply actions  

You’d think somewhere out there there’s a disgruntled ball manufacturer employee just waiting to tell us though…and damn it, I want to know.

by Missing Barry on Mar 11, 2009 1:16 PM PDT up reply actions  

anecdotal

I remember Jason Schmidt of all people commenting on how the balls were smaller, more rubbery one year. Too lazy to google it so just believe me ok?

"They can trade me," Bonds said. "I don't think they will, though. It's not like I want to be traded, man. I'm a Giant. I'm stuck here till the end."

by GameSix on Mar 12, 2009 1:24 PM PDT up reply actions  

And how about those new, harder bats!?

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on Mar 12, 2009 7:03 PM PDT up reply actions  

they aren't

"Those boos really motivate me to make something happen." - Bonds

by Persiflage on Mar 10, 2009 3:27 PM PDT reply actions  

Records

This has probably been brought up quite a bit here but would you guys be in favor of having the records of known steroid users wiped out or marked off in some way or should they just stand as is?

by baybruin415 on Mar 11, 2009 11:33 AM PDT reply actions  

Should we wipe out the records of players who excluded blacks and darker-skinned hispanics from the game? What about the records of pitchers who pitched off a higher mound, with a bigger strike zone? Or players in the 60’s that used amphetamines (or greenie users in any era, really)? Take Gaylord Perry out of the HoF for throwing spitballs?

The idea of marking or wiping out records is as ridiculous as it is stupid.

by Missing Barry on Mar 11, 2009 12:30 PM PDT up reply actions  

The comparison of Cheaters, Gamblers, and Racists is rediculous.

All cheaters, no matter how egregious, are fundamentally aligned with the basic tenets of sport: Trying to win. It may not be ‘fair’, it may not be legal, but it certainly grows from the same competitive seed that all sport grows from.

Gambling is the exact opposite. The suspicion of playing NOT to win is as anti-sport as can be, and completely undermines the integrity of the game. This is why the actions of Pete Rose are so inherently unforgivable. They are in no way comparable to any type of cheating in any sport, whether it be steroids or spitballs or anything else.

Racism in sport is a societal issue, not a sport issue. Racism existed as an establishment in baseball at a time when Racism existed as an establishment in American society. Some of our greatest public figures from the past were undoubtedly unabashed racists. Some of our greatest baseball players from the past were the same. The statement “a man of his times” is relevant here – not as an excuse, but as a possible explanation.

by FairweatherFan on Mar 11, 2009 5:15 PM PDT reply actions  

Pow!

Solid.

OK if I adopt Randy Johnson?
"What kind of a stupid question is that?"

by victor frankenstein on Mar 11, 2009 6:30 PM PDT up reply actions  

I think there is a solid link between the steroids issue and racism. During the “steroids era”, baseball had a culture that accepted its use and turned a blind eye. The writers turned a blind eye (possibly out of mostly ignorance), Selig and his cronies turned a blind eye because they were making money, and Fehr and the players let it happen because they didn’t want testing. I believe taking steroids was ethically wrong, but again, was accepted in baseball. Racism was the same way. Ethically it’s an outrage, but at the time was culturally acceptable.

Now a bunch of idiot writers and scum Selig want to take the records away from steroids users, and keep the deserving players out of the Hall of Fame on ethical grounds. On those ethical grounds, racism is a much bigger offense (and they both no doubt had some effect on the “sacred” statistics).

by Missing Barry on Mar 11, 2009 7:49 PM PDT up reply actions  

I think you're missing the point...

I suppose there’s a link between steroids and racism in baseball, but the link is solely that both happened to take place in basbeball (among others.) The comparison ends there.

What Vic Frankenstein is saying, correctly so, is that racism, cheating, and gambling affected the game in completely different ways. And while all took place, they aren’t interchangeable in their respective impact.

Stupid is as Ruben Rivera does...

by bkrhater on Mar 12, 2009 8:34 AM PDT up reply actions  

Sorry, meant Fairweather Fan, not Vic Frankenstein.

Stupid is as Ruben Rivera does...

by bkrhater on Mar 12, 2009 8:35 AM PDT up reply actions  

I don’t think I’m missing the point. I’m not trying to say they’re the same thing. I’m arguing that the people that want to take an ethical stand against steroids (especially the writers that are invoking the HoF “character clause”) are doing so while completely ignoring other morally reprehensible things that have happened in the past. The link I’m making between steroids and racism is a very similar justification can be used in each case to defend those involved, and in the racism case it’s accepted but not in the case of steroids.

The only reason I brought up the effect on the game was just to point out that both situations had an effect on the statistics that were put up, because we all know the real reason behind the steroids outrage is the fact that records were broken.

Going back to my original point, I just know how ridiculous it is to try to erase records or keep players out of the HoF because of steroids suspicion. As I originally said, we have an admitted spitballer in the HoF in Gaylord Perry. From my understanding, Barney Dreyfuss actively fought to keep baseball segregated as an owner, and he was just elected into the HoF, where was the character clause there? According to Tom House, steroids have been in baseball since the 60’s, and we know amphetamine use was rampant back then. The ball has changed, bats have changed, the mound has changed, the strike zone has changed, stadiums have changed, but we should wipe out the accomplishments of a generation of players now? That idea is just stupid.

by Missing Barry on Mar 12, 2009 11:10 AM PDT up reply actions  

My underlying point

Is that the arguement “Since you let racists in, you should let cheaters/gabmlers/etc in” or vice versa is a very weak one.

Each of these (and many other) transgressions need stand on their own (lack of) merit. There are arguments for and against each one, but they are hardly the same arguments.

It is entirely possible and reasonable to be pro Bonds and anti – Rose / Cobb, for example, and vice versa.

They are demonstrably independent issues.

by FairweatherFan on Mar 12, 2009 3:19 PM PDT up reply actions  

Sounds like a fair enough argument, and I’m not really trying to argue against it. If someone considers the argument, and forms an opinion that disagrees with mine, I respect that. My problem is that the moral argument is only even being considered when it comes to steroids. For a large number of people, they don’t care about and completely ignore the moral issue of the racist era of baseball.

My own opinion is that the racists were far worse from a moral/ethical standpoint than any player that simply used steroids.

There’s also too little understanding on how stats have been affected over time by the different eras in baseball, though I’m sure the blogging community has a more solid grasp on this concept than writers and the general public…

by Missing Barry on Mar 12, 2009 6:46 PM PDT up reply actions  

the real fact of the matter here is that invoking the “character” argument for keeping someone out of the HOF for any reason is purely lame. PERIOD. Who sets the standards here? Sportswriters who vote on this? Who appointed them guardian of the public’s baseball morality? It’s a joke.

Why isn't Sabean held accountable for leading the Giants into many years of mediocrity???

by oldrips on Mar 13, 2009 8:21 AM PDT up reply actions  

This Rose Fellow

He finally admitted a few years ago that he bet on baseball after denying it for years. But, he claims he never bet against himself or threw a game. He bet on his own team to win. I do not know what the evidence says about that. Seems like the guy had a gambling addiction, something quite a few rich athletes seem to have. Many non rich folks have the problem too, but when you see Charles Barkley and Michael Jordan having these large gambling debts, you wonder what is wrong with these guys. Not sure he gambled in a way to lose games. It seems like Cobb’s rascism went a lot further than was generally culturally acceptable at the time. At least in Detroit. Maybe in the deep south, but not so much in Michigan.

by bradleybear on Mar 11, 2009 10:03 PM PDT reply actions  

The gambling thing

Is as much perception as reality.

When you are in that position, you don’t fuck w/ gambling – especially on sports and ESPECIALLY on the sport you have some (no matter how little) ability to impact.

The temptation is too great, and the slope too slippery.

Sure, perhaps Rose only bet on his team to win – and on it’s own merits that doesn’t seem like a bad thing. The problem is the perception – the involvement with the institution of sports gambling. When in a publicly visible position, one must avoid the perception of impropriety.

by FairweatherFan on Mar 12, 2009 3:23 PM PDT up reply actions  

You said “fuck” and made a concise, eloquent argument. I’m in.

Stupid is as Ruben Rivera does...

by bkrhater on Mar 12, 2009 4:05 PM PDT up reply actions  

Even betting on your own team to win is suspect. The temptation would be there to overuse the bullpen (to turn a medium-to-low leverage situation into a virtual sure thing, for example) and have pitchers unavailable when the team needed them more albeit in a game in which the manager has no bets placed.

Fred Lewis can stand under my umbrella.
31 May 2007, 21:38 EST - the last time Matteh's career W-L wasn't below.500
We are at war with Los Angeles. We have always been at war with Los Angeles.

by S.F. Giangst on Mar 15, 2009 8:10 AM PDT up reply actions  

Fuck anybody who says ‘Fuck Pete Rose’ is all I have to say.
Oh and whilst speaking about steroids I think youve brought up an interesting point about scientific advancements in medicine…but I would still stand on the ground of steroids are wrong.

It wont happen but I think MLBs stance should be;

*I read an article someplace where the writer had made a formula that put the value of a Roided up homer at 0.75

So with that in mind I would make the announcement that former /current players who have used steroids can come forward and have their career stats altered as above(Not just with homers…I’m sure a formula could be devised for all statistics)and be granted immunity from any other punishment provided whilst they are playing they are subjected to quarterly roid checks.
Any other player after said announcement who doesnt come forward and is later found to have taken PEDs will be banned for 2 years and not be elligible for HOF.
I think this would solve a lot of problems and create an atmosphere where players have a ‘way out’ without punishment for a mistake.
Then you can judge a players merits after the afformentioned statistical formulas have been applied and see if they still warrant the HOF etc.
Sound good?

by Ohpityme on Mar 15, 2009 7:35 AM PDT reply actions  

I honestly don’t think that you can do anything with the numbers or with HOF eligibility that would reek of anything appraoching integrity.

What you do: base achievements in the context of the era. If it is known that a player used, you could easily just put some mental markdowns for the performance. The knowledge of their use will remain known, and people can value that to their own individual liking for pretty much ever.

What you do: Make sure the problem is cleaned up. Don’t bitch about what happened or figure out how to further dismember the already thoroughly dismembered sense of performance from the current era. If it’s clean, then get over it. If it’s not, then that is today’s problem, and not yesterday’s problem. Retroactively changing stats the way you’re suggesting isn’t a real way to deal with anything. It’s just a way to keep putting our efforts and our energy into yesterday’s issues.

What you don’t do: Don’t screw with the numbers. Don’t assume that anybody used based on abberant stats. Roger Maris played for 12 seasosn and hit over 20% of his career homeruns in one of them. Therefore: he is a steroid user. Hank Aaron hit more than half of his career homeruns from his age 31 season foreward. But players typically decline in their 30s! He must be a steroid user. See how these things fall apart. See why you can’t screw with the numbers? Numbers do strange enough things on their own. Any intelligent person can work out the kinks for themselves.

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on Mar 15, 2009 3:49 PM PDT up reply actions  

You can’t change the stats, because each one of those home runs actually happened in an officially sanctioned MLB game. As howtheyscored noted, you can look at the era in the context of what happened, but to somehow pretend these things didn’t go happen is not a solution. Also keep in mind, there’s an argument that steroids weren’t even cheating because they weren’t against baseball rules when most of this happened.

One more thing – you can change the stats when Selig and his cronies give all the money back they made off the players using steroids. Let me know when that happens.

by Missing Barry on Mar 15, 2009 6:04 PM PDT up reply actions  

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