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HOF & Historical WAR

WAR, there's got to be a better way... And indeed there is, at least when it comes to guestimating the chances of active players entering the Hall Of Fame. Or at least trying to get them into some sort of historical perspective. Historical WAR gives us tools to do that.

My method to arrive at the table below is fairly simple:

  1. Sort all the players by year (combining stints for players who were traded), then by WAR in descending order.
  2. Determine in a most Excel-ent fashion who were the top 5% in WAR for each given season.
  3. Count the number of times each player's performance placed him in the top 5%.

Then I just present the data to you for your consideration and wait for your accolades and underpants.

As always with WAR the dataset is limited to 1955 and later seasons. Some players obviously got jobbed by this. I have not refined it by restricting the dataset to only players debuting in 1955 or later. It's a first draft...

Also please keep in mind that when seeking a cutoff point for the elite 5%, it is invariably just a matter of .1 WAR that includes or excludes a player from elite status. Some players may have numerous seasons where they were in or out by the skin of their teeth. I'm thinkin' on other ways to do that.

The cutoff of 5% is arbitrary. For recent seasons it typically yields a list of 35-40 players per season. Likewise the decision to cut off the report at 7 appearances in the top 5% is arbitrary. But that yields approximately 1.5 (or slightly higher with the pre-1955 debut players removed) players for consideration in each season in the dataset; being a "kinda small Hall" proponent I'm happy with that when it comes to evaluating non-pitchers.

Enjoy, and I look forward to your comments and suggestions on the methodology and the results.

Star-divide

Aaron, Hank          18
Bonds, Barry 18
Mays, Willie 16
Robinson, Frank 15
Henderson, Rickey 14
Schmidt, Mike 14
Rodriguez, Alex 12
Brett, George 11
Kaline, Al 11
Mathews, Eddie 11
Rose, Pete 11
Bagwell, Jeff 10
Boggs, Wade 10
Clemente, Roberto 10
Griffey, Ken (Jr.) 10
Martinez, Edgar 10
Molitor, Paul 10
Morgan, Joe 10
Ripken, Cal 10
Smith, Reggie 10
Yastrzemski, Carl 10
Carter, Gary 9
Grich, Bobby 9
Jackson, Reggie 9
Jones, Chipper 9
Larkin, Barry 9
Mantle, Mickey 9
Murray, Eddie 9
Robinson, Brooks 9
Thomas, Frank 9
Whitaker, Lou 9
Abreu, Bobby 8
Bando, Sal 8
Bench, Johnny 8
Bonds, Bobby 8
Boyer, Ken 8
Carew, Rod 8
Edmonds, Jim 8
Guerrero, Vladimir 8
Hernandez, Keith 8
Jones, Andruw 8
Lofton, Kenny 8
McGwire, Mark 8
Pujols, Albert 8
Raines, Tim 8
Santo, Ron 8
Thome, Jim 8
Trammell, Alan 8
Wynn, Jimmy 8
Allen, Dick 7
Banks, Ernie 7
Cey, Ron 7
Gwynn, Tony 7
Helton, Todd 7
Jeter, Derek 7
Killebrew, Harmon 7
McCovey, Willie 7
Nettles, Graig 7
Palmeiro, Rafael 7
Phillips, Tony 7
Piazza, Mike 7
Randolph, Willie 7
Rolen, Scott 7
Sandberg, Ryne 7
Sheffield, Gary 7
Smith, Ozzie 7
Sosa, Sammy 7
Suzuki, Ichiro 7
Tenace, Gene 7
Ventura, Robin 7
Walker, Larry 7
Williams, Bernie 7
Williams, Billy 7
Yount, Robin 7

This FanPost is reader-generated, and it does not necessarily reflect the views of McCovey Chronicles. If the author uses filler to achieve the minimum word requirement, a moderator may edit the FanPost for his or her own amusement.

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More from McCovey Chronicles

Hall of Fame Stuff

Jan 2009 by Grant - 200 comments

Comments

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Any list in which Ron Cey equals Willie McCovey is one I find suspect.

Sergio Romo: striking out professional hitters since 2005.

by Lyle on Mar 9, 2009 6:42 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Speaking of McCovey, maybe you can help me out, Lyle. What happened to him in 1964? Did he get injured or what? His ‘64 season doesn’t really mesh with the peak years he was entering during that time frame of his career. I’m almost certain he was injured, but a quick Google search isn’t telling me much.

by xanthan on Mar 9, 2009 8:04 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes.

Mac had gimpy knees. He was moved to the outfield in 63 on a part time basis so the Giants could get Cepeda into the lineup at the same time. Because Cepeda had a better glove, the thought had been to put him in the outfield, but Cepeda himself had bad knees, so they kept him at first, and played Mac, mostly in left. He had a terrible time out there leading the team in errors, making something like 14 in 1963. Much of his defensive ineffectiveness at both first and in the outfield was attributable to his injuries.

So Mac played in the OF for parts of 3 seasons starting in 1962. Mac though he played from 1959 to 1980, always had bad wheels. By 1969 he had an arthritic knee and and a bad hip. I always try to keep in mind that sports medicine was rudimentary to non-existent in those days. Contracts were not guaranteed and players were eminently more replaceable then they are now due to low salaries and the reserve clause.

The end results are evident today when he is seen in public. He is virtually crippled now and has to use a wheelchair most of the time.

by E Ticket on Mar 9, 2009 10:14 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks, E

I was 9 in 1964, Chris, and not quite yet into the Giants. E’s explanation jives with what I’ve read of the times. Interestingly, I’ve read recently that Willie now thinks he was wrong to object to playing LF. As much as I’d prefer the idea of a left-handed 6’4" firstbaseman, can you imagine both Cepeda and McCovey in the lineup throughout the 60’s? Wow.

Sergio Romo: striking out professional hitters since 2005.

by Lyle on Mar 10, 2009 7:37 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well, your little inquiry and Lyle’s response had me rumminating a little bit about that time period…thinking about some things that I had actually forgotten. The fact that Cepeda and McCovey didn’t live that far from each other out in the avenues not far from Ocean Beach when McCovey first came up. One of my first friends at the new high school I transferred into was the visiting team bat boy during those years.

We met in the spring of ‘63 as late tryouts for the jayvee baseball team. Being a Giants batboy wasn’t considered a big deal around school for some reason, but It was pretty cool for him, because he got to leave school early on gamedays and it was pretty cool for me because he had tons of baseballs, caps, liners, cracked bats and other stuff he was able to scrounge from Murph.

You’re right Lyle. Mac worked really hard at his new position, in spite of the injuries. Eventually, Stoneham/Feeney traded Cepeda to St. Louis for Ray Sadeki in 1965. Most people don’t realize that Mac was once benched for the better part of six weeks in 1960—getting only about 20 ABs the entire month of July.

Another Mac trivia item was that in the 62 World Series he started one game in right field, one game in left field, and only two at first base, not playing in the others.

Anyway, really appreciate xanthan’s always looking for new ways to look at things and shed new light on them.

by E Ticket on Mar 10, 2009 10:14 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

E

Did you know that Wille Mac actually spent part of one winter as the sports anchor at the (I think) CBS TV affiliate in Sacramento (my home town)? It was geek heaven for me. I’d guess it was somewhere around 1968. Looking back, and now that I’m in the business, I can’t figure out how that came about – if the regular guy had an extensive medical leave, or they were between sports anchors, or what. I got the impression Willie was trying to pave his way into a post-baseball career, but that was strictly my young opinion. He seemed very genial, and read well enough.

Sergio Romo: striking out professional hitters since 2005.

by Lyle on Mar 11, 2009 9:17 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

As noted, it’s a first pass, i.e. how many times a player was in the top 5%.

Fred Lewis can stand under my umbrella.
31 May 2007, 21:38 EST - the last time Matteh's career W-L wasn't below.500
We are at war with Los Angeles. We have always been at war with Los Angeles.

by S.F. Giangst on Mar 9, 2009 8:12 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

And Ron Cey had a pretty damned good career, too. He played a tougher position than McCovey and rated favorably there in certain years by TZ (a 4 year span of +14, +13, +9, and +10 runs above average). He had some good years. It’s not like David Eckstein is getting compared to McCovey.

by xanthan on Mar 9, 2009 8:18 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Also..Cepeda forced McCovey to the OF for a few years, that can’t have been good for his defensive numbers.

The Basil Fawlty Moderating Strategy:
"We could run a nice blog here if we didn't have all these members getting in the way."

by WalrusMan on Mar 9, 2009 8:31 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Good call, I forgot about his brief 1.5-ish seasons in the OF. After 1964, he never played another game in the OF.

by xanthan on Mar 9, 2009 8:33 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I just intensely dislike Ron Cey (as a Dodger, not as a person).

Sergio Romo: striking out professional hitters since 2005.

by Lyle on Mar 10, 2009 7:39 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sal Bando = Johnny Bench was the one that really jumped out at me.

Not that I have anything against Sal Bando. I once named my pet salamander after him.

Adoptive father to the All-Father. Does that make me the All-Grandfather?

by EliminateMe on Mar 9, 2009 9:46 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Again it’s not necessarily a matter of “equals” in terms of pure value. A way to look at it is as a mechanized system for selecting All-Stars and just counting those up for a full career.

Fred Lewis can stand under my umbrella.
31 May 2007, 21:38 EST - the last time Matteh's career W-L wasn't below.500
We are at war with Los Angeles. We have always been at war with Los Angeles.

by S.F. Giangst on Mar 9, 2009 7:47 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I was hoping you’d drop a Fallout 3 quote into this: “War…. War never changes.”

Anyways, cool post. I honestly think that this Historical WAR stuff is one of the more interesting (and useful and just plain cool) things to pop up in the baseball statistical community in recent years. I’ve been spending a lot of time browsing through the site.

I think a lot of people underrate Pete Rose, he was a hell of a player for a long time. From ‘65-’76 he had a great run. That’s over 10 years of very good win totals.

by xanthan on Mar 9, 2009 8:10 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I’m working on another method that sums a player’s yearly count of standard deviations from the mean for his full career. Not sure I’ve done it right though. But so far it’s telling me Bonds = 95, nobody else even reaches 80, A-Rod is about to pass Schmidt as teh awesomest infieider in the Retrosheet era, it’s a scandal that Bobby Grich and Lou Whitaker aren’t in the Hall, Johnnie LeMaster really, really sucked and Greg Maddux is the ultimate WAR killer.

Fred Lewis can stand under my umbrella.
31 May 2007, 21:38 EST - the last time Matteh's career W-L wasn't below.500
We are at war with Los Angeles. We have always been at war with Los Angeles.

by S.F. Giangst on Mar 9, 2009 8:23 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

re: LeMaster

Dude just couldn’t hit. And the even sadder thing is that TZ seems to hate his defense, which was his only saving grace. He total -46 runs for his career on defense. Oooch.

by xanthan on Mar 9, 2009 8:26 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Think about Rose’s 1968 season in context. This was a season in which a starting pitcher posted a 1.12 ERA…

Catcher are base running. Hitters are offense.
Only [hella] games left until the end of Zito's contract.

by thehavenot on Mar 9, 2009 11:25 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, the average (average!!) hitter in the NL that season hit: .243/.300/.341. Rose hit: .335/.391/.470.

by xanthan on Mar 9, 2009 11:32 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Holy shit

I’ve always felt Rose was a bit overrated, but this is a good reminder to always look at context. I shouldn’t need a reminder, but I do.

When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realized God doesn’t work that way, so I stole one and prayed for forgiveness. - Emo Philips

Neglectful father of David Quinowski

by marcello on Mar 9, 2009 12:12 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

He also did some awesome Aqua Velva aftershave commercials!

A man wants to smell like a man!

by xanthan on Mar 9, 2009 12:23 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Also, a question to you SF Giangst. How did you sort total players by year? Is there a top WAR leaderboard by year or something?

by xanthan on Mar 9, 2009 8:20 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I don’t know if the owner of b’proj will ever make a leaderboard or offer the data in a searchable way. So, I wrote a Perl script to suck down all the player pages and write them to a CSV file, and it’s just Excel from there.

Fred Lewis can stand under my umbrella.
31 May 2007, 21:38 EST - the last time Matteh's career W-L wasn't below.500
We are at war with Los Angeles. We have always been at war with Los Angeles.

by S.F. Giangst on Mar 9, 2009 8:26 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Nice! Any chance I could get my hands on your Perl script — that sounds dirty — or the CSV file? I’d love to query around in it.*

*TWSS!

by xanthan on Mar 9, 2009 8:28 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

The CSV… no. The guy running the b’proj site is a) trying to make money, and b) hasn’t on his own yet decided to dump the whole database for general consumption. So I don’t want to trample on his interests.

But the script is mine, so I guess I can give that to you…Email me.

my $username =~ s/\W//;
$username .= “@gmail.com”;

Fred Lewis can stand under my umbrella.
31 May 2007, 21:38 EST - the last time Matteh's career W-L wasn't below.500
We are at war with Los Angeles. We have always been at war with Los Angeles.

by S.F. Giangst on Mar 9, 2009 8:37 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

You two nerds to get a temperture-controlled clean room.

My adopted Giant: "Raptor Jesus" Guzman

by Goofus on Mar 9, 2009 9:13 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Left out “need” but I got it anyway – Goofus, you beat me to it again.

Sergio Romo: striking out professional hitters since 2005.

by Lyle on Mar 10, 2009 7:41 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Barry Bonds is pretty good.

New to McCovey Chronicles? Check out the McFAQs! McFAQ I & II
comics | art | Nattowear

by Natto on Mar 9, 2009 10:09 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

he's okay.

Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.

by jponry on Mar 9, 2009 11:38 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I heard he put stuff in his butt.

by xanthan on Mar 9, 2009 11:40 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

You say that like it’s a bad thing.

by Lars The Wanderer on Mar 9, 2009 11:47 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Humor. How… human.

Fred Lewis can stand under my umbrella.
31 May 2007, 21:38 EST - the last time Matteh's career W-L wasn't below.500
We are at war with Los Angeles. We have always been at war with Los Angeles.

by S.F. Giangst on Mar 9, 2009 7:49 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

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