Steve Holm on the outside looking in?
by pittsburghian on Mar 27, 2009 7:54 AM PDT
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PrintI always thought that the whole 11-12 man roster for pitcher discussion was dancing around the elephant in the middle of the room.
As Baggs is want to do, he threw in a nugget at the end of this article on sagging ticket sales:
Pablo Sandoval will begin catching in the bullpen as early as today and log a few innings behind the plate over the final Cactus League games, Bochy said. The Giants had hoped to use Sandoval as a third-string catcher, but backup Steve Holm could be squeezed out if the Giants feel they must have a 12th pitcher.
So, when Bochy puts Sandoval in at catcher, its not that the 3rd base experiment is over, but rather that the solution to having that extra bench spot for Torres, Guzman, or the like may in fact be moving Holm down or otherwise.
This FanPost is reader-generated, and it does not necessarily reflect the views of McCovey Chronicles. If the author uses filler to achieve the minimum word requirement, a moderator may edit the FanPost for his or her own amusement.
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Sandoval
I went to the Q&A/book signing with Kevin Goldstein, Christina Kahrl and Gary Huckabay in Alameda last night (which was awesome, by the way) and one of the few Giants fans in attendance asked about this very issue – the viability of Sandoval catching 30 games a year thereby eliminating the need for a backup C.
I knew Goldstein was bearish towards Pablito’s catching skills, but he absolutely shredded him. Multiple times, he used the words “awful”, “terrible”, and “horrible” in reference to Pablo’s defensive skills. I almost felt bad for the guy asking the question because Goldstein was so over the top critical of Sandoval. Basically sounded like even a few emergency innings behind the dish was too many.
really?
When I watched him play for SJ, he didn’t look near “horrible”. In fact, he was 3/3 in throwing out base runners.
STEVE HOLM! refuses to be the odd man out.
by UnleashTheGore on Mar 27, 2009 8:57 AM PDT up reply actions
I remember seeing some articles (possible from Baseball America? not sure) showing that pablo’s defense appeared to be good behind the plate. Don’t have a link, but yeah, not everyone says he’s horrible.
Less arm, more talk. Raisingcain is a GAMER.
Adopted Giant: Henry Sosa
I can’t find the article either, but it described that Sandoval was one the most efficient catchers at throwing out runners in the minors last year.
Giant Dirtbags: Brian Anderson, Todd Jennings, Steve Hammond, John Bowker
Wronghanded Affeldt doing it right
by Giant among Angels on Mar 29, 2009 10:34 AM PDT up reply actions
Weren’t these the same ass hats that said the Giants would lose 110 games last season?
Pablo isn’t Bengie, but he isn’t terrible.
by Lars The Wanderer on Mar 27, 2009 10:03 AM PDT up reply actions
I’m angry that I didn’t know there was such an event in Alameda yesterday because I would have gone if I had known.
"While conservatives tell you 'leave things alone and no one will lose,' and liberals tell you 'interfere a lot and no one will lose,' baseball says 'someone will lose.' Not only says it - but insists upon it! ... Democracy is lovely, but baseball's more mature." BVCE supports SF Dugout and Manny Burriss.
by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Mar 27, 2009 12:40 PM PDT up reply actions
/ tries to not look too smug.
If Molinia needs prolonged time off and Holm is not on the 25 man he is only a plane ticket away. Sandoval would basically be used there one full game every few weeks or just long enough to mop up a game. This is something they should be considering. I will not go as far as to say the must do it but does open up a lot of options for the bench and could make sure the team has flexibility should any of the other young ones need some time in Fresno to get back up to of their game.
Here comes Captain Obvious wearing his Atomic Wedgie!
It's more than once every few weeks
Molina started 136 games at catcher last year, and that was a career high. His average is closer to 120 games. It’d be foolish to count on more than 130 games from him which means at least 32 from the backup. That’s 1-2 games a week, plus the odd late inning fill-in after Molina’s been pinch run for.
Given Molina’s age, speed, and career history, not having a dedicated backup is a terrible idea.
Adoptive father to the All-Father. Does that make me the All-Grandfather?
by EliminateMe on Mar 27, 2009 11:55 AM PDT up reply actions
Don't question their commitment
I’m sure whoever is the backup catcher will be dedicated.
My adopted Giant: "Raptor Jesus" Guzman
I question your lack of commitment
You should have been committed a long time ago.
Adoptive father to the All-Father. Does that make me the All-Grandfather?
by EliminateMe on Mar 27, 2009 12:17 PM PDT up reply actions
Playing all or nothing are we?
We are talking about an arrangement, that if it is chosen, would last at most couple weeks at a time. Since Molina has been a Giant name the times and conditions his not written into the starting lineup 2 times a week when it is not an off or travel day. Especially in the early part of the season Big Head barely gives him a day off a week when the rest of the team is playing.
Add to that how unlikely the starting pitchers are going to put in 7 strong inning all April long and a temporary move like this makes a lot of sense. It is risky but then anything the Giants do is going to be risky with this collection of position players. And sending Holm down does not mean the Gaitns lose his services all year.
Here comes Captain Obvious wearing his Atomic Wedgie!
Sandoval has enough to learn with third base, I think that expecting him to work on his catching as well may be too much to ask. Having to learn two positions simultaneously is going to hurt him in the field, and may even affect him at the plate. This also means that Molina is going to be played into the ground, because Sandoval is just too inexperienced to get alot of playing time back there.
In short, typical Giant stupidity. They’ve been in spring training for a month already and now with the season about to start, they’re scrambling around. This should have been sorted out weeks ago. They could have avoided this whole thing by making Kevin Frandsen the starter, and sending Manny Burriss back to the minors for seasoning. By making Manny the starter, (pretty obvious although not announced as yet) they are wasting a roster spot. Has he outplayed Kevin Frandsen this spring? Yes, but Frandsen has played well too. Certainly well enough that nobody would have a problem if Kevin was the second baseman. The Giants need a bona fide backup catcher, who constantly sits with the pitchers and works out with them, not a second string catcher who is also the starting third baseman. Just dumb.
email Matt Cain at findsawaytolose.com
man, you can be hard to take.
they’re not really “scrambling around”, they’re trying to decide if they need to carry what would be strictly a backup catcher, or if they can use Pablo in that role and spend the roster spot elsewhere.
Have you ever had a positive thought about the Giants? Has there ever been a move that you approved of?
Fairley odd parent to Wendell
If they’re trying to decide if he can be the backup catcher, they could have given Pablo more than a week to prepare for that scenario. He spent all offseason learning to play third base at the big league level. Giving him a one week crash course with the possibility of starting at catcher once a week is something they should have thought about at the start of spring training.
Unless it’s just something they want him to prepare for as the 3rd string catcher, it’s typical Giant stupidity.
Don't think, it could only hurt the ballclub.
it’s typical Giant stupidity.
Lest we forget, Holm has options left, so it’s not like he either makes the squad or is placed on waivers and we’re left with just Pablo. The aforementioned quote would have been more relevant two years ago, when Pedro was the emergency catcher. The fact is, the Giants are in a fairly admirable position at catcher, thanks specifically to Giants-nonstupidity.
Stupid is as Ruben Rivera does...
I agree that they are in an admirable position. But it wouldn’t have taken a genius to think of this scenario at the start of spring training. Maybe Pablo can play 5 days a week at 3rd & another at cather while playing adequate defense at both positions. Maybe he can make smooth in-game switch to catcher if Bengie has to be replaced for a pinch-runner. Doing all of this while learning how to hit big league pitchers trying to adjust to his hacking approach at the plate. I’m just saying, they could have easily given the kid more time to prepare for it.
Don't think, it could only hurt the ballclub.
I know what you're sayin'
But, this…
Between the minors and majors, he’s caught 153 games.
…is probably what led to the relaxed approach in deciding what to do with Pablo’s catching skilz. Having an emergency catcher with nearly an entire season’s worth of professional catching experience ain’t too shabby, and I’m sure this was taken into account.
Stupid is as Ruben Rivera does...
But they’re talking about making him the backup catcher not the emergency catcher. Like I said earlier, that’s more than just waiting on Molina to get hurt. It means 30+ starts at catcher & some late inning replacements. All while learning to play 3rd & hit major league pitching.
Don't think, it could only hurt the ballclub.
153 isn’t that many games for the entirety of a minor league career.
Hi, I am Johnny Disaster.
by Johnny Disaster on Mar 27, 2009 5:48 PM PDT up reply actions
WTF, WTF???
actually I consider myself one of the most optimistic Giants’ fans around, and everyone that knows me knows that, so obviously you don’t know me. If you went back and read my posts in the past, you would see I’m always optimistic over every trade we make and every free agent signing. I even liked the Zito signing!! However, here is what I DON’T like:
1. Brian Sabean- he was once an elite GM, when all GM’s thought like he did, but his time has passed. He ignored the draft to the point where he forfeited number one draft picks to build through elderly free agents. He basically is the reason this team has been lousy these past few years. Now the franchise is in recovery, but is it due to him seeing the light, and or is it because the people over him saw the light and surrounded him with people who DO get it? His friendship with Magowan allowed him to keep the job long after he should have been shit canned.
2. Bruce Bochy- a Sabean hire who got the job because he was old school. Sabean interviewed Manny Acta, a young dynamic manager who places great values on computers and stats, yet he somehow decided Bochy was a better fit for this franchise, despite the fact that it’s future lies with its young talent. He’s a better fit for having a beer with Sabean, but not for the good of this franchise.
My point is that if the subject is Bochy and Sabean, there’s a good chance I’m going to say something bad. It’s not that I hate the Giants, quite the contrary, it’s because I love them and they play a way too much important role in my life. It just bugs me that something so important to me is in the hands of two guys who just don’t get it. And in this specific case, this is a decision that should have been thought about and planned for even before spring training. These two guys just pull shit from their asses. They knew Sandoval was a catcher before spring training started, so why hasn’t he been practicing behind the plate? They decided last week that an 11 man pitching staff is feasible, now they realize it’s stupid so again, one week before the season starts they’re changing their minds. Man, they knew before spring training they had about 20 guys competing for three spots in the bullpen, so why would they even think for a second about making them compete for TWO spots? That’s what drives me crazy, short and sweet. Oh, not very short I guess!
Anyway, my point is that
email Matt Cain at findsawaytolose.com
I’m going to end all my comments like this from now on.
Completely agree with your argument, though. On any other franchise, the idea that your backup catcher should be your starting third baseman would be so ludicrous that we wouldn’t even have to talk about it.
It’s not like Pablo is actually a 3B, like he’s David Wright or something like that. He’s just a kid who can hit that needs to find a place on the field and probably can’t play any of them particularly well.
Fairley odd parent to Wendell
Doesn’t make any difference whether he’s “actually” a 3b or not; the fact is, he’s the team’s starting third baseman.
There’s a reason why baseball teams always have a backup catcher. Catchers get hurt, need lots of days off, need pinch runners, etc.
The backup catchers typically get into at least fifty games a year. Shuffling the third baseman behind the plate every third game is going to create all sorts of managerial headaches and handicaps, to say nothing of playing havoc with Pablo’s development.
I don't necessarily disagree
I just don’t think it’s too big of a deal that Pablo is getting some time at C during ST.
Fairley odd parent to Wendell
I don't mind if that's all it is.
I’m just worried about the suggestion made by Baggs that they’d consider going without a real backup.
Adoptive father to the All-Father. Does that make me the All-Grandfather?
by EliminateMe on Mar 27, 2009 12:28 PM PDT up reply actions
This
Slow catcher + defensively below-average third baseman = need for lots of subs late in innings + days off for said catcher. Why hamstring yourself to the point that you can only ever take one of the two out of the game? Like EM, I’m not upset by the fact that Pablo is catching bull-pen sessions, but by the fact that Bochy thinks they only need one and a half catchers.
When it's all said and done, America will be remembered for three things: The Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
Since his abilities were far less known at 3B than C, it makes perfect sense to me that getting Sandoval lots of reps as a 3B starter was a far greater priority than getting him reps as the backup catcher.
My adopted Giant: "Raptor Jesus" Guzman
well, THAT I can agree with, but if your plan is now for him to be second string catcher instead of third string or emergency catcher, you simply cannot wait this long in the spring before putting him back there for the first time. I know they want another spot for the bullpen and that’s important, but not at the expense of a second string catcher. If they’ve decided this late that they’re not happy with Steve Holm they need to check the waiver wires for an experienced backup, not throw a kid back there. And it might not be fair to say before final cuts are made, but it’s starting to look like me that their desire to keep non essential personnel like Rich Aurilia, Juan Uribe, AND the loser of the Burriss-Frandsen second base battle is going to cause them to cut essential personnel like an extra arm for the bullpen or in this case, the backup catcher.
email Matt Cain at findsawaytolose.com
this is so well said.
…their desire to keep non essential personnel like Rich Aurilia, Juan Uribe, AND the loser of the Burriss-Frandsen second base battle is going to cause them to cut essential personnel like an extra arm for the bullpen or in this case, the backup catcher.
You eat a steak a bit at a time not by trying to shove the whole thing in then chewing. If the player is young and has options a month or 2 in the minors will not hurt things as long as the youngster on the 25 man are getting frequent and regular play time. The younger does well the spare tire vet can be jettisoned at will.
Here comes Captain Obvious wearing his Atomic Wedgie!
Feliz???
Feliz was the third-string emergency catcher. The 2007 Giants always had a dedicated backup catcher, either Notgardo or GRod. Feliz wore the pads for part of one game.
Having Sandoval be the emergency catcher makes perfect sense. Having him be the only backup to a 34-year-old who is frequently pinch-run for and has averaged about 120 games started over his career makes the opposite of that.
Adoptive father to the All-Father. Does that make me the All-Grandfather?
by EliminateMe on Mar 27, 2009 12:00 PM PDT up reply actions
Could be hilarious...
…especially the first time he airmails a routine toss to the mound into center field.
Adoptive father to the All-Father. Does that make me the All-Grandfather?
by EliminateMe on Mar 27, 2009 12:26 PM PDT up reply actions
I dunno...
…maybe I wasn’t clear.
Lemme give this another try. First, my response was to what I block-quoted. Second, I never made an argument for Pablo as the back-up. My intention in using the example of Feliz??? was simply to point out that having Bengie, Pablo, and Holm as options is a far more enviable position to be in than the ‘07 situation; giving Pablo time behind the plate at the end of spring ain’t “typical Giants stupidity.” Signing an aged, defensively declining SS who probably will counter any improvement in offensive production with defensive immobility would be “typical Giants stupidity.”
Oh. :(
Stupid is as Ruben Rivera does...
Feliz is still a poor example, though
Most if not all teams have some random position player as the emergency third catcher. It doesn’t make sense to carry someone with catching experience just on the off chance they might be needed in one game. The fact that Feliz had to actually suit up and squat for an inning or two isn’t typical Giants stupidity; it’s just standard practice.
As I said elsewhere, I’ve got no problem giving Sandoval a few innings behind the plate in ST and having him 3rd on the depth chart.
Adoptive father to the All-Father. Does that make me the All-Grandfather?
Alright, so referring to the Giants’ emergency catcher in ’07 to point out that the situation is better now because the current emergency catcher actually has catching experience, is a poor use of an example?
Huh.
Stupid is as Ruben Rivera does...
They’re not talking about Pablo as the third catcher though. They’re talking about him as the second catcher. If Pablo were to be the third catcher all year, I’d love it. If they choose to not have a back-up – as Bochy suggests – that’s dumb.
When it's all said and done, America will be remembered for three things: The Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
Well, Baggerly is talking about Sandoval as back-up. The Giants are talking about a twelve-man rotation. Bagg’s is simply speculating.
Stupid is as Ruben Rivera does...
Ahh, I mis-read. But in any case, it would be bad move.
When it's all said and done, America will be remembered for three things: The Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
Sandoval as back-up: terrible move.
Sandoval as emergency: comfortable.
Stupid is as Ruben Rivera does...
Or, to phrase it differently...
Unless it’s just something they want him to prepare for as the 3rd string catcher, it’s typical Giant stupidity.
Adoptive father to the All-Father. Does that make me the All-Grandfather?
No...
…using the fact that the emergency catcher has no catching experience as an example of “typical Giants stupidity” is bad use of an example, because most emergency catchers don’t have any significant experience.
“The situation is better now” and “They were stupid then” are two different statements.
Adoptive father to the All-Father. Does that make me the All-Grandfather?
You've totally lost me
At what point did I make the statement that, because Pedro Feliz was the emergency catcher, the Giants were being typically stupid? I was arguing AGAINST the assertion made by the poster to whom I was replying that having Pablo catch in ST was “typical Giants stupidity.”
If you wanna argue for argument’s sake, at least pick a better topic.
Stupid is as Ruben Rivera does...
Uhhh...
….you quoted the line about typical Giants stupidity, and you wrote:
The aforementioned quote would have been more relevant two years ago, when Pedro was the emergency catcher.
If you weren’t saying what I said you were saying, then I have no idea what you were saying.
Adoptive father to the All-Father. Does that make me the All-Grandfather?
Some possible options:
a) “Okay, it’s not stupid, I don’t know what I was thinking.”
b) “I see how you misread that, but what I meant was…”
c) “My favorite pie is (insert name of pie flavor).”
d) Nothing.
Anyway, my point is that
Could it also be that Sabes’ phone might be ringing about interest in Molina and that triggered this action? Maybe Seattle called and said they can’t stand their current crop of catchers. They might offer up Beltre as Branyan + Molina > Beltre + Jobjima. That might be a good deal for both teams because Betre + Pablo > Pablo + Molina
My adopted Giant: "Raptor Jesus" Guzman
yeah, I’m sure that’s it. On a team that’s going to go as far as its pitching is going to take it, he’s going to trade the only catcher who has experience with this staff and leave them in the hands of a kid with limited catching experience about ten days before the season starts.
email Matt Cain at findsawaytolose.com
There has been no study able to prove that who’s catching a pitcher makes any difference in the pitcher’s results.
There have been lots of studies done that have proven who’s hitting makes a difference in the team’s results.
At this point, I think the team needs offense far more than it needs a catcher that warm and fuzzy with the pitchers. My imaginary trade (Molina for Beltre) would improve the team, IMO.
My adopted Giant: "Raptor Jesus" Guzman
while you and I might think that way, and stats might even prove us correct, what do you think the response would be if you asked vets like Randy Johnson or Barry Zito, or even kids like Cain or Lincecum? They obviously want to pitch to someone they feel comfortable with. Trading Bengie Molina now and putting the staffs in the hands of an inexperienced catcher could cause an upheaval in the pitching staff, and that’s not something you want to do this late. If you had made this trade in the offseason, and the new catcher had a solid month of spring training work with the staff that would be a different story, but this is simply a trade you cannot make now.
email Matt Cain at findsawaytolose.com
I think they’d say, “Hmmm, let me see. Beltre in the lineup means more runs than with Benjie in the lineup. It also means better defense behind me at the hot corner. OK, I’ll throw to the fat kid.”
Let’s take it by starter:
Johnson: A mercenary on a one-year deal. Has pitched to so many catchers he probably couldn’t name hlaf of them. Probably doesn’t care.
Lincecum: Doesn’t strike me as a guy who’s going to lose a lot of sleep worrying about who his catcher is. He’s the freakin’ CYA winner. He’d be fine.
Cain: More than anyone on the staff, I would suspect he understands the importance of offense to a pitcher’s success.
Zito: Pitched a lot to the backup C anyway.
Sanchez:: As I said before, this might be the most natural fit.
My adopted Giant: "Raptor Jesus" Guzman
I disagree with this comment.
If the team decides that Manny is the starter, I can’t fault them for that or say it’s a waste of a roster spot. Besides outhitting Frandsen this spring by a whole lot, he showed promise at the end of last year. His OBP skills are looking more and more legit, meaning Burris has the potential to be a quality lead-off hitter, which this team needs if Lewis is going to be put into an RBI role. Frandsen at his best seems like a bottom-of-the-order hitter and more likely a good utility infielder.
The Pablo idea mentioned above is something I’d guess is being considered, as the OP suggested, to getting a bat like Guzman’s on the big team and still have 12 pitchers. Perhaps they’re trying to be creative and looking to field the best chance to win games, which means they’re going to need to score runs. It’s pretty easy to argue that Holm taking a roster spot won’t help them score many runs.
Pitcher/catcher rapport is probably over-rated. They could probably have him work primarily with one pitcher, Sanchez comes to mind with their natural connection of being young and Latino, with whom he could build a quick rapport.
One last point: Getting Pablo work behind the dish also leaves them in MUCH better position to deal Molina if a good trade presents itself. If Pablo does alright at C and the team moves Molina, he could move there full-time and Frandsen, Guzman or Aurilia could play 3rd.
One more last point (really): You heard it here first: At some point in the next two season, we could have Frandsen at 2B, Burriss at SS and Renteria at 3B. (With Pablo either catching or playing 1B.)
My adopted Giant: "Raptor Jesus" Guzman
also
after seeing Renteria’s statuesque performance last night, I’m thinking we could see him at 2B and Manny at SS within a month.
Fairley odd parent to Wendell
it’s funny that almost everybody liked the Renteria signing when it happened, but once the market dropped and all the so called “experts” started calling it one of the worst signings of the offseason, everybody jumped off the bandwagon. Even if Renteria makes more money than he should, I think he’s going to have an outstanding season. I tell you right now, this guy is made for ATT park. He won’t be affected by the dimensions because he’s not a HR hitter anyway, but he’s going to live in the gaps. This guy is a solid extra base hitter, and he’s going to hit lots of shots into triples alley and lots of shots down the right field line when the right fielder cheats over. Mark my words, he’ll hit a solid .300 with 15 triples.
email Matt Cain at findsawaytolose.com
I liked the move at the time and I like the bat. Seeing him move in the field has left me very very uneasy about him at SS.
Fairley odd parent to Wendell
are you just judging him on what you saw last night? That’s kind of a small sample size. Not only were the conditions unbearable, but it was also the first night game of the season. He could have been out of sorts. Well, he’s our shortstop and he’s going to play everyday, so we’ll find out for sure pretty soon.
email Matt Cain at findsawaytolose.com
It's not that funny, really
Unless you expect the GM to be equal too or stupider than a bunch of posters on a blog.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
renteria will be just fine . I WILL TAKE 270 ALL DAY !!! omar hadnt hit for us in 2 years and so what if lets balls get by , he is still above average at shortstop but his range is not what it was , i will take that all day !!
by marvin benard on Mar 27, 2009 5:03 PM PDT up reply actions
yeah, i think that’s a good point. If you’re expecting Renteria to be the player he was a couple of years ago you may be disappointed, but on his worst day he’s a better hitter than anything we saw at shortstop last year. If the Giants’ had upgraded all their positions this offseason in the way they upgraded shortstop, we wouldn’t have a problem scoring runs this season.
Goodbye Jack Taschner. Now Bochy has to find another reliever to make him look dumb
1 ticket please.
I look at that project 340 wOBA and think it might be possible to see multiple Giants base runners with less than 2 out (Rally!!!) more often than 2 times in a 3 game series, if the line is built properly. Sure Rentawreck will get not Gold Glove considerations but he should make all the routine plays. Plus he is here for only 2 years. It’s more of a weekend fling thing then a marriage.
Here comes Captain Obvious wearing his Atomic Wedgie!
Phelps has 17 innings of major league experience as a catcher. That would really have to be an emergency. Nobody likes a good defensive .220 hitting catcher on your roster, especially when the starter is your cleanup hitter, but usually it’s something you have to do.
email Matt Cain at findsawaytolose.com
They should have been doing this all along. I’d much rather have Pablo catch 40 games this year (and be ready for 2010), keeping his bat in the lineup and either improving on defense (Aurilia) or adding another bat (Guzman?). No need for a 3rd catcher taking up a roster spot.
Shouldn’t even be an issue for a month or two. Giants have plenty of off days in April.
Brian Sabean figures that if he buys enough bottles, one of them is bound to have lightning in it.
Steve Holm
Somehow the thread got jacked from Holm to Sandoval.
We need Pablo’s bat in the line-up everyday. Where he plays is up to management.
Holm looks like a good back-up and has a fair bat but aren’t we waiting for Posey to break into the line-up, hopefully in 2010. Once they decide how many pitchers to carry then they can decide when to use Holm as a back-up. We need Pablo to go huge on defense and offense. In fact we need everyone to go huge this year, especially when
Zeets is pitching.
Go Giants!!!
by Villa de Branciforte on Mar 28, 2009 12:50 PM PDT reply actions
Where Pablo plays will not depend on management. It will depend on his glove. Posey and Holm should not be used in the same sentence as they have nothing to do with each other. Regardless if it is a 12 or 11 man staff, Holm will be the backup catcher and be used when Molina needs a day off or be pinch ran for late in a game. No offense, the nickname Zeets is really bad.
Giant Dirtbags: Brian Anderson, Todd Jennings, Steve Hammond, John Bowker
Wronghanded Affeldt doing it right
by Giant among Angels on Mar 28, 2009 1:37 PM PDT up reply actions
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