Rotoworld >:(
The Giants are certainly hoping that this is the 24-year-old's breakthrough season, but he's made a habit of not pitching up to his potential.
I just want to whine about them being stupid and unfair to Matt Cain, thanks. So yeah, he's not a Cy Young contender yet or anything but a 24 year old who averages over 200 innings a year and has a career ERA+ of 118 makes a habit of not pitching up to his potential? SCREW YOU, ROTOWORLD.
7 months ago
jponry
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Yeah, for as much play as that stupid site gets, it is full of fail.
by Lars The Wanderer on Mar 15, 2009 12:46 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Rotoworld is full of dicks.
Not deadbeat Dad looking to adopt young SF ball player.
by AndYourBirdCanSing on Mar 15, 2009 12:49 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I dropped Rotoworld out of my rotation of baseball sites. It’s not worth paying attention to anymore.
Matt Cain is a young pitcher posting VORPs in the 30s and 40s. He’s awesome.
by Dan from NM on Mar 15, 2009 12:57 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I want to do this.
But don’t really have another site that provides the spread of news they do as well.
Suggestions?
by CTGiant on Mar 15, 2009 1:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Rotoworld is made of nothing but epic fail.
Adopted Giant: Clayton Tanner (unless someone tells me he's already been adopted)
"He [Frandsen] had 4 strikesses per three innings his twenty year, then dropped to an cool 1th. But Burriss essentially skipped over AA and AAA after compiling a . But doctrines arrive forever as they say so I'm sure fans of the Philadelphia Phillies and the Detroit Tigers, if given a chance, would trade a down year in 2008 for a World Series title in 2007. 285/.347/." -sfgiantstoday
by walkoff baltimore chop on Mar 15, 2009 1:29 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Dear Sirs,
Please cancel my left sidebar widget Rotoworld feed subscription thingie. You have offended my sensibilities with your nonsense.
Sincerely,
McCovey Chronicles
by Grant on Mar 15, 2009 1:42 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Dear Rotoworld,
Eat a bag of dicks and die.
Rafael Rodriguez: Your number 8 organizational prospect before stepping a foot on American soil and has "looked just super so far," according to Felipe Alou...according to Baggs.
by BrianBokake on Mar 15, 2009 1:51 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Fixed
The Giants are certainly hoping that this is the 24-year-old’s breakthrough season, but he’s made a habit of not pitching up to his potential for a team that scores runs.
by neurofarm on Mar 15, 2009 3:10 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Bad habits die hard.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Mar 15, 2009 3:51 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Urgh.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Mar 15, 2009 3:51 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
So I understand this correctly in what round do most fantasy geeks draft Cain?
by wilriv21 on Mar 15, 2009 3:57 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
14th round or so
I'm spent, just can't rosterbate anymore.
by oldjacket on Mar 15, 2009 4:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
well... from a fantasy standpoint, pessimism is a little more justified
unlike in real baseball where a W-L record means basically nothing (or at least, other stats are way more important in judging a pitcher’s actual performance), in fantasy wins is a stat that counts… so you’d better take a pitcher’s offense into account when you’re picking him. It should just drive down all the Giants’ pitchers equally, though, but instead it seems to settle in over Cain particularly.
Idolizing Robb Nen since 2002...
by Smoke on the Water on Mar 15, 2009 6:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yahoo ranks him as the 26th best SP, right below Matsuzaka. His Ks partially offset his wins
by ktice on Mar 15, 2009 8:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
if you were to spread the talent out evenly, he would be a staff ace, according to the “experts”
by ktice on Mar 15, 2009 9:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah...
I suppose I go more by a stricter definition of the term “ace” to me, an ace is someone who’s a cy young caliber pitcher or maybe just a tad short of that. I don’t really think there are more than about a dozen or so of those guys in baseball. But if we’re going to define “ace” as a top 30 starter, then yeah, I guess Cain would be a borderline ace, either at the back end of that group or just a little outside of it.
Idolizing Robb Nen since 2002...
by Smoke on the Water on Mar 15, 2009 9:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sorta OT but not really
Bert Blyleven was interviewed midgame (Nederlanders’ last gasp) tonight by Sutcliffe & co…who of course posted his stats. HOW many wins/losses , over 500? Which of course doesn’t include no decisions…and a lifetime ERA of just over 3 , which my limited – stat mind says was a solid career.
Remind you of anyone?
(And of course Sutcliffe closes the interview with the obligatory HOF patronization)
OK if I adopt Randy Johnson?
"What kind of a stupid question is that?"
by victor frankenstein on Mar 15, 2009 11:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Rotoworld is right
I know it’s heresy around here to say bad things about Matt Cain, but he’s just not that good. That doesn’t mean he won’t eventually reach his potential and be the pitcher we all hope he will be, but to blame all his woes on the bullpen and lack of run scoring is just wishful thinking. To me, his last two years are summed up perfectly by the game against the Cardinals last year where he pitched six scoreless innings, and then hit a homerun to help give the Giants a 5-0 lead. He then went out there and couldn’t finish the seventh. And even though the bullpen then blew the 5-2 lead, make no mistake it begun with Cain. A top pitcher closes that game out. I know everyone hates the Lincecum comparison, but if Tim had a 5-0 lead there the game is over. If any top pitcher had the lead there the game is over. The good ones close it out. Cain has yet to take that step. Why does the bullpen blow so many of his games? More than a few times it’s because he can’t deliver the lead to the setup man or closer. He has 120 pitches by the sixth inning, and it’s up to the middle men to bring it to Wilson. Then when they blow the games, Cain gets none of the blame. Everyone jokes about Cain being a “number three starter at best,” but guess what? Right now that’s all he is. As for the Lincecum comparison, what Tim Lincecum has done so far is exactly what we all expected Matt Cain to do. We give him every excuse in the world, his age, the run support, the bullpen etc. and some of it is true but alot of it isn’t. Tim Linecum wins without run support. Jake Peavy wins without run support. Matt Cain doesn’t. He’s just not an elite pitcher or anything close to it.
Brian Sabean: continuing to monitor the CC and Manny situations
by rxmeister on Mar 15, 2009 5:39 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
rxmeister, you’ve made this exact post before and people have explained to you why you are wrong. I’m not going to bother to do it again.
Suffice to say, YOU ARE WRONG.
That said, no one is saying he’s an elite pitcher, but a 24 year old who averages over 200 innings a year at a 118 ERA+ is nothing to scoff at or act like he’s failing to live up to potential or some other bullshit like that, at all.
And that’s the stupidest argument I’ve ever heard, that Tim would never blow a 5-0 lead. Or would you like me to go find a few instances where he did? Because I know they exist.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on Mar 15, 2009 5:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have to ask
What does 118 ERA+ mean? I’m being serious.
by SFGuy on Mar 15, 2009 6:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
ERA+ is adjusted ERA according to ballparks and league. Average is 100. Thus, Cain was above average last year with a 116 ERA+ and has been above average in each of his years in the majors.
by Natto on Mar 15, 2009 6:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes. But please keep in mind (SFGuy and others) that ERA+ like OPS+ is only a comparison tool. It tells you how valuable a player is in preventing runs, but doesn’t tell you how many runs he prevents.
Fred Lewis can stand under my umbrella.
31 May 2007, 21:38 EST - the last time Matteh's career W-L wasn't below.500
We are at war with Los Angeles. We have always been at war with Los Angeles.
by S.F. Giangst on Mar 15, 2009 9:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
you know it’s funny, because when I ‘ve made the Cain argument before, I’ve actually seen plenty of posters that have actually agreed with me. These people who “explain” why I’m wrong is the same small group of people that complain everytime. And you know what really sounds stupid? The argument that poor Matt Cain keep losing because he’s unlucky. You win because you’re good, and you lose because you’re bad. Bill Parcells once said “you are what your record says you are.” Oh yeah, that’s right. Bill Parcells is stupid too.
Brian Sabean: continuing to monitor the CC and Manny situations
by rxmeister on Mar 15, 2009 8:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I somehow doubt that Bill Parcels was talking about starting pitchers.
A team is usually as good as it’s record, but a starting pitcher can’t really control everything that goes on in a game.
I'm spent, just can't rosterbate anymore.
by oldjacket on Mar 15, 2009 8:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on Mar 15, 2009 8:44 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I mean, I’m not going to deny that there are aspects of Matt Cain that exacerbate his run support problem (he does often throw way too many pitches which does often lead to him getting taken out of games a bit early – though let’s also remember that there aren’t many pitchers who consistently pitch 7-8 innings EVERY single game) but acting like he’s been a disappointment when if his record was simply switched, with everything else staying the exactly the same, you would think he was totally awesome is just dumb.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on Mar 15, 2009 8:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
i pretty much completely agree, but would also just like to point out that the bill parcells quote isn’t really pertinent for a lot of reasons. Now if he had said something like “A quarterback is as good as his record” then you would be correct in using that quote. He would be kind of dumb, but you’d at least be justified in applying the statement.
Idolizing Robb Nen since 2002...
by Smoke on the Water on Mar 15, 2009 9:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sounds like I need to say you're wrong
I don’t see why I have to, take a look at the rest of his stats, or watch him pitch. Have you done this? He could finish games, by the way, and in the days before rigid pitch counts he would have.
by ktice on Mar 15, 2009 9:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wrong Wrong Wrong Wrong
Wrong Wrong Wrong Wrong
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Mar 15, 2009 10:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No.
No.
I only have a signature because I recognize everyone else by their sigs, not their usernames..
by lmaozedong on Mar 15, 2009 11:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He’s had (I believe, I haven’t looked at the numbers) like the 2nd worst run support of any pitcher in the NL over the last two years combined.
by xanthan on Mar 16, 2009 5:45 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
NOT A WINNAR
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realized God doesn’t work that way, so I stole one and prayed for forgiveness. - Emo Philips
Neglectful father of David Quinowski
by marcello on Mar 16, 2009 10:24 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Also, I really wish you would use your enter key.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on Mar 15, 2009 5:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
bravo
Idolizing Robb Nen since 2002...
by Smoke on the Water on Mar 15, 2009 6:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
that was exactly what I did.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on Mar 15, 2009 6:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
+109
Adopted Giant: Clayton Tanner (unless someone tells me he's already been adopted)
"He [Sandoval] is a big, puffy crouton in our wilted salad of a lineup. Do No matter how bad a movie is a eight game sweep is wacky in baseball, so a one run loss in the series is not the end of the world. disparage the comedian." -sfgiantstoday
by walkoff baltimore chop on Mar 15, 2009 7:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
he may not be an ace...
but there are very few teams in baseball that wouldn’t kill to have him as their No. 2 starter (off the top of my head, the only 2nd starter I can think of who is DEFINITELY better is Haren in Arizona… there are some other maybes, but not many guys who are beyond a doubt more valuable as No. 2 starters). From a 24 year old, with his experience and stuff, that’s damn good.
Idolizing Robb Nen since 2002...
by Smoke on the Water on Mar 15, 2009 6:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
use paragraphs ya block head!
Psycho killer, qu'est-ce que c'est?
by shikantaza on Mar 15, 2009 7:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah, I know. Always come after the grammar, spelling or structure when you don’t have an intelligent response to make. Next comes the Hitler comparisons.
Brian Sabean: continuing to monitor the CC and Manny situations
by rxmeister on Mar 16, 2009 5:35 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Your grammar is just like Hitler’s.
(Seriously thought, you are way off base on Cain…just my opinion……..does this make me Chamberlain?)
by Lars The Wanderer on Mar 16, 2009 8:05 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Quisling
I'm spent, just can't rosterbate anymore.
by oldjacket on Mar 16, 2009 8:28 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
BLASPHEME!!
I WILL PILLAGE YOUR PIE STORAGE FACILITIES AND EAT ALL YOUR DELICIOUS PASTRIES WHILE YOU ARE FORCED TO WATCH!!
by Lars The Wanderer on Mar 16, 2009 10:04 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Is a cheesecake a pie or a cake? It looks like a pie but they call it a cake?
Someone clarify plz.
by xanthan on Mar 16, 2009 10:11 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
it's delicious
so it’s pie
I'm spent, just can't rosterbate anymore.
by oldjacket on Mar 16, 2009 10:13 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
These guys might be able to answer that question for you.
by deuce deuce on Mar 16, 2009 7:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
According to wikipedia, it's a pie
Despite their name, cheesecakes are technically tarts, that is, open-topped pies; the word ‘cake’ was formerly applied to a much broader category of foods than it is today
by Natto on Mar 17, 2009 11:14 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
VICTORY IS MINE!!
Suck it, cake lovers!!
/grabs Goofus’ crotch
by Lars The Wanderer on Mar 17, 2009 11:16 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
no
Less arm, more talk. Raisingcain is a GAMER.
Adopted Giant: Henry Sosa
by raisingcain on Mar 15, 2009 7:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're totally right
A 3.76 ERA is horrible. And his lack of run support is totally his fault too. Also doesn’t hurt to mention that Lincecum’s run support per 9 innings was almost 1.5 higher than Cain’s. (there’s an article at OGC about it) He’s getting a lot more run support. What is Cain supposed to do? Throw a shut out every start? Sorry, but arguing that Matt Cain is actually a 3rd starter at best is kind of a feeble arguement.
by boonitez on Mar 15, 2009 10:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
again, I’m not arguing about his stuff, I’m arguing about what he’s been so far. By the way, his ERA went up last year. His walks went up as well. He should at least be showing progress, not stagnating or regressing. He’s just been one of those pitchers who finds a way to lose.
Brian Sabean: continuing to monitor the CC and Manny situations
by rxmeister on Mar 16, 2009 5:38 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Regressing compared to… what? His incredibly small sample size of two prior full years in the majors?
Fred Lewis can stand under my umbrella.
31 May 2007, 21:38 EST - the last time Matteh's career W-L wasn't below.500
We are at war with Los Angeles. We have always been at war with Los Angeles.
by S.F. Giangst on Mar 16, 2009 5:58 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
His ERA went up and he was still an above average pitcher who pitched a lot of innings.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on Mar 16, 2009 6:07 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
what is with the two years? He’s had three full years and about a quarter of a fourth. And your point that Cain is an above average pitcher is the point I’m making! Isn’t an average pitcher a number three starter? So Matt Cain as an above average pitcher is merely a good number three starter. Is that what we thought he’d be after he shot through the minors and posted a 2.33 ERA in his seven starts in 2005?
Brian Sabean: continuing to monitor the CC and Manny situations
by rxmeister on Mar 16, 2009 7:04 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think people read the word ‘average’ in terms of MLB talent and really (vastly?) underrate what average is in the majors. Average is really good. So, Matt Cain has been nearly 20% better than the really good pitchers in the majors. That’s really, uh, really good!
If you want to do the rotation slot thing — ie: he’s a #4 starter — I won’t stop you, but I don’t like people grouping pitchers into the slots because they often do it wrong or base it on arbitrary reasons.
Stat Corner found that by tRA+ (tRA is like FIP but a little more robust) the rotation slots looked like this:
AVERAGES. (based on 2007 and 2008 data)
#1 STARTERS: 130 tRA+
#2 STARTERS: 112 tRA+
#3 STARTERS: 100 tRA+
#4 STARTERS: 91 tRA+
#5 STARTERS: 76 tRA+
These represent the breakpoints between each slot. For example, between a 95 and a 106 tRA+ would be rated as a #3 starter. Below 86 and you’re a #5, above a 118 and you’re a #1.
1 — 2 BARRIER: 118 tRA+
2 — 3 BARRIER: 106 tRA+
3 — 4 BARRIER: 95 tRA+
4 — 5 BARRIER: 86 tRA+
Matt’s tRA+ from 2005-2008
2005: 113
2006: 125
2007: 127
2008: 107
So, by the ranking above if you wanted to classify him by a rotation slot from 2005-2008 (and remember, ‘05 is a partial year but we’ll include it anyways) Cain would look like this:
2005: #2 starter
2006: #1 starter
2007: #1 starter
2008: #2 starter
That’s pretty good.
by xanthan on Mar 16, 2009 7:13 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Where the hell did I even say “two years”?
An average pitcher is VERY VALUABLE in the major leagues! And Cain is not just slightly above average, he’s been about 18-20% above average. THAT IS A NUMBER TWO STARTER.
THE END.
Also, what xanthan said.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on Mar 16, 2009 7:16 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Two other posters said two years, SFGiangst and Victor Frankenstein. Did you not see the comment that was directly above yours? Just where “the hell” are you looking? As for Stats Corner stats, please forgive me if 16 losses and a 3.65 ERA is not my definition of a number one starter. Yeah, I know, he had tough luck.
Brian Sabean: continuing to monitor the CC and Manny situations
by rxmeister on Mar 16, 2009 7:24 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m sorry, I didn’t realize you were responding to everyone at once. And SFGiangst was talking about how he’d only had two full major league seasons BEFORE last season.
And I’m not surprised to see that you’re basically going to ignore the statistical arguments that prove you wrong because they don’t fit what you think the answer should be. Disappointed but not surprised.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on Mar 16, 2009 7:25 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Correct on both points.
Fred Lewis can stand under my umbrella.
31 May 2007, 21:38 EST - the last time Matteh's career W-L wasn't below.500
We are at war with Los Angeles. We have always been at war with Los Angeles.
by S.F. Giangst on Mar 16, 2009 8:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Rx, you’re just stirring the pot now for fun, aren’t you? You’re really going to slam Cain for losing 16 games on one of the worst offensive teams in the majors?
Let’s check out some other pitches who’ve lost 16+ games in a season in baseball history.
1972 – Gaylord Perry 24-16, 1.92 ERA, 170 ERA+
1987 – Nolan Ryan 8-16, 3.92 ERA, 142 ERA+
1973 – Bert Blyleven, 20-17, 2.52, 158 ERA+
1964 – Don Drysdale, 18-16, 2.18 ERA, 149 ERA+
Just to name a few, check out Bert Blyleven’s career — jeez, I feel sorry for that guy.
by xanthan on Mar 16, 2009 7:31 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Also, for fun, here’s the PI link.
Pitchers since 1956 who’ve lost at least 16 or more games in a season sorted by ERA+
http://www.baseball-reference.com/pi/shareit/PRxy
Lots of good pitchers in this list. It mostly alternates between Hall of Famers, really, really good pitchers, and average-ish pitchers.
by xanthan on Mar 16, 2009 7:33 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Really bad pitchers rarely even get the opportunity to lose 16 games.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on Mar 16, 2009 7:35 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, great point. It’s a bit of selection bias, but you’re totally right. I think near the bottom of the list was Jose Lima’s 2005 season.
(lolima time)
by xanthan on Mar 16, 2009 7:37 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Haha, I just looked at it.
2005 – Jose Lima, 5-16, 168 IP, 219 H, 31 HR, 6.99 ERA, 63 ERA+
by xanthan on Mar 16, 2009 7:38 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m sorry but I’m going to have to agree with rxmeister on this. I never heard of the guy but he makes a brilliant point. When Matt Cain came up we all thought future star, then superstar, than Hall of Fame. All we have gotten so far is a pretty good pitcher, which is a big disappointment. I think that’s the point he was making. What Tim Lincecum did we all expected from Matt Cain.
by notrxmeister on Mar 16, 2009 9:08 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, the fact that it’s a big disappointment is no one’s fault but your own. That’s all I can say.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on Mar 16, 2009 9:28 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Your expectations have no relation ot Matt Cain’s skill level or winnerness.
Get over it.
GROUGTHINK ALERT
Chatterbalks dot com: Now with updates!
by groug on Mar 16, 2009 11:07 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well...
I was going to make fun of everyone for missing the obvious sarcasm here. But I gave you too much credit.
Jake Peavy won 2 more games than Cain. He also got .4 runs per game more in support. Last year Matt Cain was 31st in Value Wins, which leaves him as a high number 2 starter, which is what we all think he is. Do I think this year he could get his walks under control and be an ace? Yes. But even if this is this Matt Cain we have to live, it is a great Matt Cain. 4 value wins per year is top flight.
His age is not an excuse, it’s a reason he could be even better next year. When you look at his numbers, you have to keep in mind that he is 24, and so there is room for improvement. You don’t say “Well he’s 24 so it’s ok.” Matt Cain is a number 2 right now, and he could be better. And there’s nothing wrong with that. It’s actually quite good.
Its too early in the morning to be ranting, I hope that made sense.
by MonkeyChow on Mar 16, 2009 7:39 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Great post.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on Mar 16, 2009 7:41 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was checking out the win values, too. Both Cain and Roy Oswalt were worth +3.7 wins last season. I think that would surprise a few people.
by xanthan on Mar 16, 2009 7:43 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Matt Cain's rank in NL in IP/GS
2007: 15th
2008: 12th
Matt Cain doesn’t finish his starts like other pitchers do.
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realized God doesn’t work that way, so I stole one and prayed for forgiveness. - Emo Philips
Neglectful father of David Quinowski
by marcello on Mar 16, 2009 11:02 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Rotoworld has always hated the Giants.
Here are some of their better hidden anti-Giants remarks:
Tim Lincecum received 23 of 32 first-place votes to win NL Cy Young honors on Tuesday.
Lincecum received 137 points to Brandon Webb’s 73 and Johan Santana’s 55, so it’s clear the Giants had absolutely no need to push him so hard down the stretch in a shameless bid to secure him the award.
Pablo Sandoval went 3-for-5 with a homer and three RBI for Magallanes of the Venezuelan Winter League on Friday.
Edgardo Alfonso, Sandoval and Richard Hidalgo all homered while batting 3-4-5 in the lineup. The Giants have to be especially excited to see Sandoval producing while hitting between washed up has-beens. He’ll surely fit right into Brian Sabean’s future plans.
Jonathan Sanchez pitched the Giants past the Mets by allowing two runs in seven innings on Monday.
Forgive Sanchez is he thinks he was traded. The Giants scored 11 runs for him last time out and then came up with six runs in the bottom of the first tonight.
Triple-A Fresno’s Brian Bocock went 0-for-5 with three strikeouts on Tuesday and is 4-for-31 since being sent down.
It’s like the Giants said to themselves, “Let’s destroy whatever shred of confidence he might have left after he hit .143 in 77 major league at-bats.” Except they probably wouldn’t have used that many big words.
The Giants said Merkin Valdez is nursing tightness in his right forearm.
Surprisingly, the Giants haven’t put him on the DL. It’s odd that they’d want to take any chances with a pitcher coming back from Tommy John surgery in a year in which they’re not going to contend. But they are the Giants.
There has to be a Dodger fan writing for them, and apparently they dont worry about being unbiased.
by kvdp12 on Mar 15, 2009 7:39 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Actually, I thought they liked the GIants
Only a Giants partisan could ride Sabean as hard as they have over the years. Nobody else would care enough.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
by Bhaakon on Mar 15, 2009 8:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t mind a lot of those – they’re not far off from things we would say ourselves – , but the Cain comment is just inaccurate and ridiculous.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on Mar 15, 2009 8:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, but for a site that should just be reporting news, it’s over the top, and unnecessary dickishness. If I want snark, I’ll come here.
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realized God doesn’t work that way, so I stole one and prayed for forgiveness. - Emo Philips
Neglectful father of David Quinowski
by marcello on Mar 16, 2009 10:34 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If I want snark, I’ll come here and talk to zenbitz.
Fixed it.
by xanthan on Mar 16, 2009 10:37 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
if you have ridiculously high expectations for Cain, you can argue that he’s been disappointing, but as to whether he’s a good pitcher or not, he is. And he’s gonna get better. He may never be as good as Lincecum, but there’s no shame in that.
Proud adopted parent of future big league slugger Thomas Neal
by nostocksjustbonds on Mar 15, 2009 9:38 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Exactly.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on Mar 15, 2009 9:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right Right Right Right
Right Right Right Right
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Mar 15, 2009 10:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I remember arguing w/ this guy on the ESPN forums
He seriously thought that Cain would maintain a BAA around .151 (Like he had in his first partial season; it’s lower than Pedro Martinez had in his best year).
So yeah, there ware alot of irrational expectations.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
by Bhaakon on Mar 16, 2009 9:52 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with RotoWorld's words
If not their sentiment. I don’t think Matt Cain has lived up to his potential yet. But that’s because his potential is at the Hall of Fame Level. I still think he will end up being a better pitcher than Timmy, although that certainly seems like crazy talk.
by Change Up on Mar 15, 2009 10:41 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
you had me until you said he’ll end up being better than Timmy. What could you possibly base that on, unless you’re just basing it on Matt being built like a horse, and Timmy being a little guy. I mean his stuff, while excellent, doesn’t come close to Timmy’s.
Brian Sabean: continuing to monitor the CC and Manny situations
by rxmeister on Mar 16, 2009 5:40 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm going to play Devil's advocate here.
What IS Cain’s “potential”?
He’s had what , two full seasons of MLB…when does he reach it? HOW does he reach it?
Obviously by not wearing himself down by going into deep pitch counts…but is he painting by design or does he have actual control issues? Are Righetti & co. addressing this?
No , really , I have no idea. Speculate or thunk me with facts.
OK if I adopt Randy Johnson?
"What kind of a stupid question is that?"
by victor frankenstein on Mar 15, 2009 11:34 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
He could certainly never reach his potential, and especially by way of being overworked, but I have absolutely never heard of a 24-year-old anybody who has tapped out their potential in anything. Questioning whether a 24-year-old will ever reach his potential is like watching a burger cook on a grill for 45 seconds and wondering if it will ever be finished. Sure, there are a lot of ways you screw that burger up, but it’s only been on the stupid grill for 45 stupid seconds!
Sorry, vic. I just realized that the things I just said didn’t have anything to do with the things that you said. Classic misdirection.
So to actually be fair to your comment:
1) Who knows what his potential is? It’s reasonable to assume that it’s higher than his current level.
2a) He might never reach it. If he does, he might not reasonably reach it until his late twenties. Even that timeframe is no guarantee by any stretch of the imagination.
2b) How? Now that, that is the question.
3) I think he has control issues. I’ve seen him lose the fastball high with some regularity, and we’ve all seen him labor through the mysteriously wild inning more times than we care to admit. However, Righetti & Co. do seem to have an affinity for a disproportionate amount of painting (unintuitive, but not without some history of success among past Giants starters). They may certainly be addressing his control, but the philosophy itself may do something to make it look worse when he’s not hitting his spots.
That’s the best I got.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Mar 16, 2009 12:11 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Two full years?
He’s made over 30 starts for the Giants’ in each of the last three seasons, so trying to make the point that’s he a relative newbie is not an accurate one. It’s time for Cain to put it together, and if he doesn’t do it this year, I’m afraid that it’s never going to happen. I can easily see the Giants’ giving up on him after another disappointing season. In fact I look for Jonathan Sanchez to pass Cain by this season and take his place alongside Timmy as the Giants’ number two starter.
Brian Sabean: continuing to monitor the CC and Manny situations
by rxmeister on Mar 16, 2009 5:46 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is hilarious. It’s time for him to put it all together? They might give up on him after another disappointing season? So if he goes out there and throws 215 innings with a 118 ERA+ they’re going to give up on him if those numbers don’t go along with better run support and a 15-10 record or whatever?
No.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on Mar 16, 2009 6:09 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I mean, did you miss the AFW debacle? I don’t get how someone can be disappointed by a top prospect being a pretty damn good major league pitcher after the way those three busted so spectacularly. THAT is what being a disappointing prospect is. Not what Matt Cain has become.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on Mar 16, 2009 6:10 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Jason Schmidt 2001-2006, 1069.2 IP, 126 ERA+
Matt Cain 2005-2008, 654.2 IP, 118 ERA+
They aren’t that different, really. Not hugely different, anyways. Do people think Schmidt underperformed or something?
by xanthan on Mar 16, 2009 6:29 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
can we forget about the stats for just a second, please? Like Tim Lincecum, when Jason Schmidt had a one or two run lead late in the game, you felt like that game was over. Do you ever have that feeling of confidence when Matt Cain is pitching? Matt Cain is simply not on that level. Will he get there one day? I sure hope so, but I’m seriously starting to wonder if that day will ever come. (watch out here comes a new paragraph!!)
As for AFW, none of them on their best days had anywhere near the stuff that Matt Cain has. So should I be happy that Cain wasn’t a bust? No, I want him to be the number one starter he is supposed to be, and that a pitcher with his arm is supposed to be. I pointed out his increase in walks and ERA, and someone pointed out that the increase was small. Well, at this stage in his career if I concede he has stayed the same, would you concede he has failed to show progress, and this should be a concern for the Giants? (new paragraph)
In conclusion, he’s a solid above average number three starter right now, who should be at least an above average number two by now. If you’re not disappointed that he hasn’t taken the next step, sorry but I am.
Brian Sabean: continuing to monitor the CC and Manny situations
by rxmeister on Mar 16, 2009 7:17 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, we’re not going to “ignore stats”.
The fact that your argument is based on “just feelin’ it” is ridiculous.
And AFW were all considered to be just as good of prospects as Cain, if not better. Jesse Foppert was the #1 pitching prospect in ALL OF BASEBALL one year. You’re ignoring the facts to fit your misconception of what you think Cain "is.
We have pointed out that his numbers are not those of an above average third starter, they are those of an average to above average second starter but that doesn’t fit your argument or what you think Cain is (for some reason I still can’t understand), so you’re ignoring it. And I don’t see all those people rushing in to agree with you now…
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on Mar 16, 2009 7:19 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That said, the fact that you apparently think that Cain should be a #1 starter and the fact that he isn’t one yet means he’s a failure is telling. You’re starting out from a place of waaaay too high expectations as well as a lack of understanding of what, exactly, the cut offs between “#1/#2/#3” are.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on Mar 16, 2009 7:21 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
can we forget about the stats for just a second, please?
Sure, let’s talk about how tough Cain looks when he pitches!
I pointed out his increase in walks and ERA, and someone pointed out that the increase was small. Well, at this stage in his career if I concede he has stayed the same, would you concede he has failed to show progress, and this should be a concern for the Giants?
Wait, I thought we weren’t going to use stats? ERA is a stat. Walks are a stat.
In conclusion, he’s a solid above average number three starter right now, who should be at least an above average number two by now. If you’re not disappointed that he hasn’t taken the next step, sorry but I am.
I would call him a #1.5 starter, he’s posted some years when he’s pitched like an ace and others like a really, really good SP.
by xanthan on Mar 16, 2009 7:21 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You’re talking about stats. Wins for a pitcher is a stat. It’s just not a good one.
I'm spent, just can't rosterbate anymore.
by oldjacket on Mar 16, 2009 8:02 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t anyone here really disagrees with your assessment of Cain performance. We all think that he gives up too many walks, uses too many pitches and sometimes makes a foolish decision with his secondary stuff. Anybody who watches him can tell you that. The part your missing is your assessment of what it means to be a number two starter.
John Maine is a number two starter.
Dana Eveland is a number two starter. So are Koji Uehara, Joel Pineiro, Zach Duke and Vincente Padilla. Also a lot of guys like Josh Johnson who are pretty similar in value to Matt Cain.
I'm spent, just can't rosterbate anymore.
by oldjacket on Mar 16, 2009 8:21 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right now in the majors, with what starters do you feel the game is “over” in the above situation? Lincecum, Halladay, Sabathia, Lee, Haren, Webb, Santana… that’s essentially it. You could argue a few names, add a couple, whatever. The point is that there are 10, or less than 10 amazing pitchers in the majors. Just because Cain is not one of them does not mean he is a third starter.
Matt Cain’s BB/9 jumped .2 last year. That’s hardly anything, that’s just season to season variability. His K/9 jumped a touch, and sure, one would like to see improvement, but how much more do you want him to improve? He’s still within the window of improvement. Some players just tread water from their 23-24 year old years. It doesn’t mean their growth has stalled forever.
by MonkeyChow on Mar 16, 2009 9:46 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wouldn’t put Lee in that category yet.
Fairley odd parent to Wendell
by WTF on Mar 16, 2009 10:18 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Santana got a ton of no decisions last year because he turned over a lead to the Mets’ Brad Hennessey-esque bullpen.
I'm spent, just can't rosterbate anymore.
by oldjacket on Mar 16, 2009 10:27 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That’s Santana’s fault for not throwing CG’s every time like a true ace.
by xanthan on Mar 16, 2009 10:30 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Johan has not lived up to his potential.
by Lars The Wanderer on Mar 16, 2009 10:39 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
AT BEST!!!
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on Mar 16, 2009 10:44 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
y'know
if you just ignore the stats, Barry Zito’s actually pretty good.
by boonitez on Mar 16, 2009 10:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cy Young award winner who finds a way to win.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Mar 16, 2009 10:50 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
So if Pablo doesn’t bat over .400 this year, will the Giants give up on him, too?
by boonitez on Mar 16, 2009 5:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
random, almost completely OT
let’s say the team underperforms and Bochy gets axed following this season. Tony La Russa, according to my understanding (and Cot’s baseball contracts) could be available after this season. Now, to me, La Russa would be a great fit. I don’t always agree with everything he does strategically, but at least I can always figure out why he’s doing what he’s doing and there’s some sound reasoning there. He likes to play the lefty-righty think up a bit much, but otherwise, I think he’s very solid in that department.
But the real question isn’t regarding La Russa, but his pitching coach, Dave Duncan. The two are basically a package deal. Duncan has a great reputation for being able to make something useful out of veteran reclamation projects— a really valuable ability for a team to have. But he has not been so renowned for working with young pitchers. That said, it seems like he did fine with Wainwright at least.
So, long story short. If Bochy’s out after this season, do you move to snatch up La Russa and Duncan? La Russa is a Bay Area guy, so we could even have an inside track to get him. Or do you worry about Duncan’s reputation with younger pitchers and pass?
Sorry, it was totally OT. I’ve just been mulling this over for a while, but didn’t think it was worth a fanshot. But maybe it’s worth a comment within a fanshot. I hope.
Idolizing Robb Nen since 2002...
by Smoke on the Water on Mar 16, 2009 1:14 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I can’t fucking stand Tony LaRussa.
I like what he does for animals though.
Fairley odd parent to Wendell
by WTF on Mar 16, 2009 7:44 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
ARF is one of my main charities. I’ve met Tony a few times. He has always been nice to me. His family are kind of snotty though.
With that said, I don’t want him managing the Giants.
by Lars The Wanderer on Mar 16, 2009 8:13 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I went on a motorcycle run to support ARF one year (Bob Brenley and Bo Jackson rode in it as well).
At the end of the run there was a party at Del Valle county (?) park in rural Livermore. There was a raffle for a brand new H-D Sportster.
When it was time to give it away, LaRussa came riding it out to the front of the stage, hit the front brake to hard and fell over trashing the handlebars, denting the tank (this is on grass), and planting his mug in the earth.
It was 2-wheeled epic fail for a good cause.
It was fun talking to Brenley at the various stops on the run.
They say some players get out of bed hitting; Pablo Sandoval doesn't wait that long
by bgunn on Mar 16, 2009 12:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Brenly not Brenley.
2-e epic spelling fail.
They say some players get out of bed hitting; Pablo Sandoval doesn't wait that long
by bgunn on Mar 16, 2009 12:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Was that Jeff Kent wearing a LaRussa disguise?
Giant Dirtbags: Brian Anderson, Todd Jennings, Steve Hammond, John Bowker
Don't F with the Affeldt
by Giant among Angels on Mar 16, 2009 10:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He’s a good manager, but I think I would die if I had to watch 100+ Tony Larussa-managed games in a year.
I'm spent, just can't rosterbate anymore.
by oldjacket on Mar 16, 2009 8:04 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And if he was our manager, somehow either one or both of David Eckstein and Aaron Miles would make the team.
by xanthan on Mar 16, 2009 8:06 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Does he still make a bajillion pitching changes per inning?
I'm spent, just can't rosterbate anymore.
by oldjacket on Mar 16, 2009 8:07 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He has like 4 LOOGY’s right now, so my guess is yes.
by MonkeyChow on Mar 16, 2009 9:28 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He and Felipe Alou are part of conspiracy to make baseball unwatchable.
I'm spent, just can't rosterbate anymore.
by oldjacket on Mar 16, 2009 9:30 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
They rosterbate with their LOOGY’s (Rimshot!)
Ok I’m sorry.
by MonkeyChow on Mar 16, 2009 9:31 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
/stern frown
I'm spent, just can't rosterbate anymore.
by oldjacket on Mar 16, 2009 9:33 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Disapproved.
Fred Lewis can stand under my umbrella.
31 May 2007, 21:38 EST - the last time Matteh's career W-L wasn't below.500
We are at war with Los Angeles. We have always been at war with Los Angeles.
by S.F. Giangst on Mar 16, 2009 8:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
/nods approvingly while others aren’t looking.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Mar 16, 2009 8:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
His games are so slow you’d think he was being paid by the hour.
They say some players get out of bed hitting; Pablo Sandoval doesn't wait that long
by bgunn on Mar 16, 2009 12:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Matt Cain NL Ranks 2007-2008
Ok, I wanted to go more in detail than I did up here. Looking at some traditional and saber ranks:
IP: 19th, 5th
IP/GS: 15th, 12th
ERA: 10th, 20th
FIP: 10th, 20th (weird how well that lines up with ERA)
I don’t know, he looks like a 1- or 2+ to me. Basically, if you say he’s not pitching well (or even that he’s been disappointing), you’re overestimating how good the rest of the pitchers in the league are.
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realized God doesn’t work that way, so I stole one and prayed for forgiveness. - Emo Philips
Neglectful father of David Quinowski
by marcello on Mar 16, 2009 1:31 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Fred Lewis can stand under my umbrella.
31 May 2007, 21:38 EST - the last time Matteh's career W-L wasn't below.500
We are at war with Los Angeles. We have always been at war with Los Angeles.
by S.F. Giangst on Mar 16, 2009 8:33 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
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