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Will Carroll over at BP has uploaded his Team Health Reports for the 2009 season. It's subscriber-only, of course, but the unfiltered comments may end up revealing quite a bit.

I expect it's okay to share that, according to his system, our big concern should be the health of the vaunted rotation: Cain. Unit, and Sanchez especially. Oh, and we gotta keep a close eye on that gamer, Scotty Rowand.

9 months ago Images_tiny BigO 22 comments 0 recs  | 

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It seems that every year Matt Cain gets a ‘red’

by xanthan on Feb 5, 2009 10:50 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Yea, and:

’06: 31 GS
’07: 32 GS
’08: 34 GS

by deuce deuce on Feb 5, 2009 10:53 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

No doubt he’s thrown a lot.

by xanthan on Feb 5, 2009 11:06 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

And one of these years he will be right about Cain. Then he’ll say, “SEE?!!…MY PROJECTIONZ R AWESOME!”….conveniently ignoring the fact that he has been wrong 4 or 5 years in a row.

by Lars The Wanderer on Feb 5, 2009 10:54 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I think he keeps getting the Jeremy Bonderman comp. They both came into the league at nearly the same age and had similar work loads. It’s so hard to judge pitching health, I don’t think Carroll has ever really said much of the inner-workings of his health system.

by xanthan on Feb 5, 2009 11:08 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

yeah

My guess is that, in Lincecum’s case, he’ll appeal to the “freak factor” to explain why no red flag.

by BigO on Feb 5, 2009 11:11 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Not exactly wrong. Saying that he’s an injury risk doesn’t that he’s surely going to get injured, just that he’s more likely than most players to get injured. There’s no real way to prove right or wrong in this case.

..so allow me to present Tim Lincecum and Matt Cain as two sweet, sweet bottles of warming hooch.

by Cookyman on Feb 5, 2009 12:42 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I can say the same about any pitcher. If I consistently name the same pitcher year after year as an injury risk, eventually I am going to be right. That doesn’t make me Nostradamus or even mean that I’ve come up with a way to forecast injury.

by Lars The Wanderer on Feb 5, 2009 12:51 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, I’m more interested to know why Carroll’s system has Cain as red.

by xanthan on Feb 5, 2009 12:54 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I can say the same about any pitcher. If I consistently name the same pitcher year after year as an injury risk, eventually I am going to be right.

Again, no you will not, since you didn’t say he’s going to get injured, you only said he’s likely to do so. I’m saying is that you can never truly be right or wrong when it comes to injuries, since we can only talk about likelihood. Cain is 23, and has pitched over 600 innings over the last three years. Those kind of pitchers are, based on past studies, considered pretty likely to get injured. Will he get injured? Only time will tell, but it will never prove the doubters/believers right or wrong.

..so allow me to present Tim Lincecum and Matt Cain as two sweet, sweet bottles of warming hooch.

by Cookyman on Feb 5, 2009 1:05 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Again, yes I will because if I state that likelyhood repeatedly, I am eventually going to be correct. And as Xanthan has pointed out, it says nothing about the type of analysis I used to draw that conclusion. I can put every MLB pitcher’s name into a hat and pick one out and say “this guy could get injured this season”. Eventually, I am going to be right because…well…pitchers get injured. That doesn’t mean I’ve developed some type of system that will forecast an injury with any type of accuracy.

by Lars The Wanderer on Feb 5, 2009 1:13 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Again, yes I will because if I state that likelyhood repeatedly, I am eventually going to be correct.

no you will not no you will not no you will not no you will not no you will not no you will not no you will not no you will not no you will not no you will not no you will not no you will not no you will not no you will not no you will not no you will not

No, you will not. You can’t “eventually” be correct if you were stating a likelihood. That’s the thing about likelihood – it’s about what’s likely to happen, not what’s going to happen. That’s why they call it likelihood. You can look it up.

Let’s say someone throws a dice. Before he does, I mention that it is very likely that it will land on a number that isn’t 6. The dice lands on 6. Does that mean that my statement was wrong? No, it doesn’t, it’s just that sometimes unlikely things happen.

If I say that a pitcher is more likely than average to get injured, I am not making a projection. I’m not saying he’s going to be injured in the next couple of years. I am saying that he is more likely to do that than the average player. An injury will not prove me right. 5 healthy seasons will not prove me wrong. That’s the problem with injury talk. Even the experts don’t have any idea what’s going to happen, so they never make projections, and therefore can never be proven right or wrong.

..so allow me to present Tim Lincecum and Matt Cain as two sweet, sweet bottles of warming hooch.

by Cookyman on Feb 5, 2009 2:51 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

WILL SO!!!

Let’s say someone throws a dice. Before he does, I mention that it is very likely that it will land on a number that isn’t 6. The dice lands on 6. Does that mean that my statement was wrong? No, it doesn’t, it’s just that sometimes unlikely things happen.

Which is exactly my point. Thank you for making it better than I did. So to summarize, my “name out of a hat method” to predict likelihood of an injury is no better than any other forecasting method.

by Lars The Wanderer on Feb 5, 2009 3:04 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Well, what about this:

We throw two dice. I, knowing, that it is the most likely outcome, pick 7. You pick 2, because that’s the number you had in little league. We roll the dice 5 times, and get 4,3,8,9,11. My educated guess turned out just as wrong as your wild one. But 7 was still a more likely score than 2 – my guess was the “right” one, regardless of the outcome. Theoretically, if we did this an infinite number of times, the dice would land on 7 more often than they would on 2. But I could never prove this like that, for obvious reasons. I could do two things:

  • Convince you logically that 7 is the better pick.
  • Do the test 1,000 times, and hope the results show that 7 is the better pick (not a great method, doesn’t actually prove anything).

That, IMO, is a better analogy for Carroll’s system. It should be more accurate than your “name out of a hat method”, but again, Carroll can’t prove it by just testing the two methods an infinite amount of times. He too is left with two options:

  • Convince us logically that his system is worth something (would require showing us his formula, which he obviously wouldn’t want to do).
  • Repeat the test many times and show us the results (even more problematic in this case – let’s say the system says Cain is a pretty big injury risk. He goes on to pitch 420 innings in the next two years, and then spends half of the third year on the DL – was the system right or wrong? We don’t know, because the system never showed a final projection, it only projected likelihood).

To my knowledge, he has done neither, which is why I’m not crazy about using his system. I think we agree on this. I hope I made myself clear.

..so allow me to present Tim Lincecum and Matt Cain as two sweet, sweet bottles of warming hooch.

by Cookyman on Feb 5, 2009 3:54 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

It shouldn’t be too hard to test, once you get a significant sample size. Assign each player a chance of suffering a significant injury over the following season according to Carroll’s ratings — say 10% for green, 25% for yellow, 40% for red. Then compare the results to a random distribution.

by Evan on Feb 6, 2009 10:52 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

But does he actually give a prediction? How do we know if red means 40% or 20%?

..so allow me to present Tim Lincecum and Matt Cain as two sweet, sweet bottles of warming hooch.

by Cookyman on Feb 6, 2009 2:06 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Rowand plays better when he’s hurt. See 2008 season.

by Norm Median on Feb 5, 2009 11:01 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

sheets

  speaking of red flags, anybody see the news on ben sheets today ? may need elbow surgery… i’m finally OFF the sheets bandwagon for the giants. saw it on mlbtr

by giantdonkey on Feb 5, 2009 11:39 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Actually, I'm back on it.

IMO, it’s better to have an actual diagnosis than a mysterious diagnosis, particularly when the problem is easily fixable. To quote Rotoworld: “Dr. James Andrews is expected to perform the procedure, which would sideline Sheets into August at least. It’s not a particularly difficult surgery to come back from, but Sheets still might be a non-factor in 2009.”

Before, I was skeptical of signing hm because 1) we didn’t know what was wrong with him, and 2) our 2009 rotation is full.

Now those problems are gone: we know what’s actually wrong with him, and it’s clear that he’s going to miss most or all of the upcoming season. I think it would be a very savvy move to offer him a 1 year deal with a team option, which would let him fill the hole left by Randy Johnson next season and make a (much needed, and long anticipated) pitching for offense trade more palatable.

VAE PVTO DEVS FIO

by Bhaakon on Feb 5, 2009 6:16 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

due diligence, Sabes

by wilriv21 on Feb 5, 2009 6:59 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

For the record, Will Carroll really doesn’t know much about injuries. His most useful skill is his network. He can get some insider info that we might not normally hear regarding an injury. But I wouldn’t use him for his “ability” to handicap injuries.

When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realized God doesn’t work that way, so I stole one and prayed for forgiveness. - Emo Philips

Neglectful father of David Quinowski

by marcello on Feb 5, 2009 11:59 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

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