Manny Ramirez and the San Francisco Giants: Let's chat about it for the first time!
by Grant on Feb 3, 2009 9:03 AM PST
309 comments
There's a threat to the solidarity of the anti-Manny faction. Manny at four years? Bah. Flimshaw. Don't make me pull out my list of Hall-of-Famers who disintegrated in their late-30s. That kind of commitment is a gamble the Giants shouldn't take.
Manny at three years? More of the same arguments, though less forceful, I suppose. The team is caught in this weird rebuilding limbo, in which some of the young puzzle pieces are good rightnowwhatarewewaitingfer and the other puzzle pieces haven't played above A-ball. Manny at three years wouldn't really mess with either, though he would give the team less flexibility on the free agent market in the next couple of years.
Let's see...next year is Matt Holliday...uh...Andruw Jones...Dave Roberts.... Yeah. That's not the point, though. In twelve, 24, or 36 months, maybe there's a very good argument that two moderately priced free agents, who don't make a lot of sense to us here in the past, would complete the Giants' roster in the future. And maybe Manny Ramirez's 38-year-old hamstring is vacationing in two different parts of the world. Everyone's an injury risk, but late-30s players are a different breed.
But now the Dodgers offered a one-year contract to Manny, which was rejected. Maybe that's just a bluff, negotiating ploy, or mustachioed mind game by the Dodger front office, but it seems to imply that a two-year deal would be the best on the table. Manny at two years? Well, you see, the defense, and the jerkfaciness, and uh...
I can't do it. The free agent class of 2010 isn't worth holding out for, and the class of 2011 is even worse, assuming that players like Felix Hernandez and Ryan Zimmerman have a good chance to sign extensions before the end of the 2010 season. I don't care about the jerkfaciness. There would be a logjam in the outfield, but in the worst-case scenario -- teams aren't willing to trade for Randy Winn or Aaron Rowand, and the Giants get lowballed on Fred Lewis -- the logjam would only be for a season. That's the harm to the quasi-rebuilding process; the Giants' pre-arbitration outfielders who deserve to start will both sit on the bench. It's a real concern, but it shouldn't prevent the addition of a middle-of-the-order bat.
Manny at two years? A nice balance between risk, reward, public relations, and hosing a division rival. Maybe teams will line up for Randy Winn, provided the Giants take on a little salary. Maybe Nate Schierholtz brings back a good infielder in trade. Maybe nothing of the sort happens, and the Giants are stuck with too many good outfielders. The horror.
The Giants have said all along that they're only interested in Manny if the contract makes sense. Two years makes a lot of sense in a weak division, with a strong staff and a booming farm system that's still years away. I'm not advocating for the signing, exactly, and I'm not going to be one of the noodles who is ready to storm the front office if the Giants don't get Manny, but two years kind of makes sense. And I'd kind of like to see it. Kind of.
Of course, in retrospect, what I'd really like to see is Aaron Rowand on a different team, and Barry Bonds starting his 17th consecutive season in left, but now we're just splitting hairs.
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I won't go all Yes, Yes, omg Manny that's it...
but I will say if he does sign with the Giants I’ll end up putting down the cash for Extra Innings — without Manny I probably won’t.
Do they know to win the game a team has to actually score at least once?
by noahthek on Feb 3, 2009 9:17 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
exactly
and if adding Manny=me watching every Giants game because they will be winning the division
than I vote for YESYESYESomg. if we sign Manny my excitement level for this season goes up a good amount. our chances of winning the division and making noise in the playoffs this year with Manny outweighs anything Fred Lewis could ever do.
please 2 years $50 mil and get him a uni.
by sanfranfan on Feb 3, 2009 9:53 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I guess I don’t follow the if the Giants are good then I’ll watch them, otherwise, meh train of thought. I would have assumed a sanfranfan would try to watch every game regardless. I will fork over the $ to be able to watch the Giants on a nightly basis even if they are the worst team in the league…
BTW, no on Manny
Giant Dirtbags: Brian Anderson, Todd Jennings, Steve Hammond, John Bowker
Don't F with the Affeldt
by Giant among Angels on Feb 3, 2009 4:43 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
i definitely follow
while i try to watch every game regardless, i’m MORE likely to watch if we’re winning and doing well. of course I love the team in good times and bad, but how i spend my time realistically comes down to entertainment value, and manny makes the giants inherently more entertaining.
I’ll be happy either way though, and until it began to look like a 1 or 2 year deal might get it done, i was vehemently against manny in any shape.
by scottishgiants on Feb 3, 2009 5:49 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm with you, GAA
I’m a fan no matter what. I understand Manny’s presence might put a few more fannies in the seats, and therefore makes business sense. But as a baseball purist, I don’t think adding Manny is good for team defense or team morale, and hurts Nate’s development.
I’m sad to see the voting results.
Sergio Romo: striking out professional hitters since 2005.
by Lyle on Feb 4, 2009 5:59 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
'Fess up now...
How many of us , after the opponents’ lead has become INSURMOUNTABLE! , do the virtual equivalent of a Dodger/D – Blank fan and git up ‘n’ walk away trailing a mumbling string of curses? So at that point we deem them not good enough to watch.
It’s true. I got nothin’ better to do.
This just in...Bobby Estalella can apply oral suction to a deceased pack animal's penile extremity.
by victor frankenstein on Feb 4, 2009 7:13 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
True fact: I’ve never done this.
I'm spent, just can't rosterbate anymore.
by oldjacket on Feb 4, 2009 8:10 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Me Niether
actually, despite all the bad hitting last year, whenever the giants were down by 5 runs in a game with 3 innings to go, i still had this strange feeling of “They can still come back”
Weird, i know, but thats how the team was making me feel last year, that they were just waiting to break out. Especially when Sandoval came up.
I never felt that way in 2007.
I am looking forward to this season and letting our young guys break out.
by scout6 on Feb 4, 2009 12:43 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I left a game early by choice once, in 1996.
Never has a poster been more correct in the history of the internet. Ever! - ResDog on yours truly
by jcb9 on Feb 4, 2009 12:45 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
THe 1996 roster will never forgive you for that one.
Giant Dirtbags: Brian Anderson, Todd Jennings, Steve Hammond, John Bowker
Don't F with the Affeldt
by Giant among Angels on Feb 4, 2009 10:05 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I live in fear of getting beaten down by the tandem of Kim Batiste, Rich DeLucia, Wilson Delgado, and Dax Jones every day of my life.
The game, incidentally, was a double header against the Pirates; it lasted about 7 hours and the Pirates kicked the Giants’ asses in both games. It was pretty horrible. One of the low points of a generally shittastic year.
Never has a poster been more correct in the history of the internet. Ever! - ResDog on yours truly
by jcb9 on Feb 4, 2009 10:20 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I found the box scores
and Here
Check out the lineup for game one:
1) Marvin Benard CF
2) Bill Mueller 3B
3) Glenallen Hill RF
4) Rick Wilkins C
5) Kim Batiste 3B
6) Jacob Cruz LF
7) Desi Wilson 1B
8) Rich Aurilia SS
9) Kirk Rueter P
That actually makes last year’s lineups almost look good. Amazingly, that lineup got 10 hits – 6 combined by Mueller and Aurilia – but only one run. And no walks. Damn, the resemblance to the 2008 Giants is eerie. They even had a catcher hitting cleanup!
The Game Two lineup is marginally better:
1) Dax Jones CF
2) Bill Mueller 2B
3) Glenallen Hill RF
4) Barry Bonds LF
5) Dave McCarty 1B
6) Steve Scarsone 3B
7) Marcus Jensen C
8) Jay Canizaro SS
9) Steve Bourgeois P
Of course, if you look at a lineup featuring leadoff man Dax Jones, #3 hitter Glenallen Hill, and Dave McCarty hitting behind Barry Bonds, and you declare it “marginally better” than the previous lineup, well, that ain’t a good sign.
Never has a poster been more correct in the history of the internet. Ever! - ResDog on yours truly
by jcb9 on Feb 4, 2009 10:27 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
If I’m at the game, I won’t leave until the 8th or 9th and an insurmountable lead. If I’m watching it on TV, it’s entirely different and I’ve left many, many games to go do one of the other hundred things I like/need to do.
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realized God doesn’t work that way, so I stole one and prayed for forgiveness. - Emo Philips
Neglectful father of David Quinowski
by marcello on Feb 4, 2009 12:49 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I’ve only left a game before it was over once and it had nothing to do with the game situation. It was game where I proposed to Mrs. Goofus and we and her entire family went across the street to Momo’s with the Giants losing. I was saying “Leave early?” but was overruled.
Of course, that was the game where Ray Durham hit a 3-run walk-off HR to beat the A’s
My adopted Giant: "Raptor Jesus" Guzman
by Goofus on Feb 4, 2009 1:50 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I only left early once, but that was so I could make it to a SJ Giants game (didn’t make it though).
by Natto on Feb 4, 2009 2:08 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
<img src="http://www.frylookingsuspicous.jpg">
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Feb 4, 2009 2:10 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Not at the ballpark—at worst there’s always a lap or two around the first level concourse and watching assholes try to drop stuff on people walking by the portwalk.
by shanghaijim on Feb 4, 2009 5:50 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
NEVER leave the BALLPARK early , that's unexcusable.
I’m talking about all the “see ya” comments on Gamethreads after we’ve shat the bed again. It happens , I know.
This just in...Bobby Estalella can apply oral suction to a deceased pack animal's penile extremity.
by victor frankenstein on Feb 5, 2009 3:06 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
We’ll see this coming season. I’ve observed gamethreads from afar but never participated in one. They seem like a combination between full contact UFC and college coed Twister.
by shanghaijim on Feb 5, 2009 6:02 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
The McCoven gamethreads are awesome. Just completely random, strange comments and pictures while hanging on every pitch. I enjoyed it very much last season.
by Lars The Wanderer on Feb 5, 2009 8:08 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
+1
Even when I said I was leaving early, I very rarely actually did. This place made even crappy games fun to watch
by bondslegend on Feb 5, 2009 9:45 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
With club sauce!
Or the lubricant of your choice.
This just in...Bobby Estalella can apply oral suction to a deceased pack animal's penile extremity.
by victor frankenstein on Feb 5, 2009 12:51 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
FINALLY!
This topic sees the light of day!
by Lars The Wanderer on Feb 3, 2009 9:19 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Maybe Nate Schierholtzbrings backwill be a good infielderin trade.
Sergio Romo will gladly hand you a bench to sit on / GIANTSPACE™ / Adopted brother of the AnVil
by SoFa King Mike on Feb 3, 2009 9:23 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
that’s exactly what I thought I was going to read before I didn’t read it.
Charlie Hayes ate my homework
by glenallen hill's waterpipe on Feb 3, 2009 3:35 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Doesn’t the Manny question come down to how many extra tickets (season and single-game) would he sell in this economic climate? Maybe that number justifies a two-year contract; maybe not.
I’m just hoping the Giants don’t leap in and overbid by $30 million, because clearly in this case there is not much of a market for Manny’s services, for whatever reason (collusion?).
My plans for 2009: getting married and attending Tim Lincecum Bobblehead Day.
by Kitspool on Feb 3, 2009 9:28 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
collusion?
Nah. He’s just a big self loving asshole that can flat out hit.
Oh, you mean Manny?
Sergio Romo will gladly hand you a bench to sit on / GIANTSPACE™ / Adopted brother of the AnVil
by SoFa King Mike on Feb 3, 2009 9:33 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
(polite golf clap)
I'm adopting a true Giant and an awe-inspring gamer: tk. "Atta babe."
by Mayor of 311 on Feb 4, 2009 1:41 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
The talk of 2-years is interesting, but you just know that the next headline we’ll see is: “Giants sign Slugger Ramirez to 4-year deal”
by xanthan on Feb 3, 2009 9:37 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
“…with player option for 5th year”
My plans for 2009: getting married and attending Tim Lincecum Bobblehead Day.
by Kitspool on Feb 3, 2009 9:46 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
“…with intention to trade young core”
I am on a vendetta to make sports enjoyable to watch again, and Mr. Buck you are at the top of my LIST!!! Mr. Selig don’t get to upset you are number TWO!!!
by say hey nation on Feb 3, 2009 10:01 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I’ll have to remember to check when I get home and see what Baseball Mogul has to say on this Manny issue.
Just last night I found out that Adam Dunn will make the Hall of Fame in 2027. He wasn’t an awesome candidate, but it’s been slim selections these last few simulated years.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Feb 3, 2009 9:51 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Baseball Mogul hates Manny because of the down year in ‘07. Dunno what he’ll look like in the new version when it comes out.
I'm as tall as Mel - why can't I hit 500 home runs?
by Ott on Feb 3, 2009 11:05 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Baseball Mogul has a limited randomization feature that gives players a different set of attributes within a pre-determined limit every time you start a new game. Because of this, where Manny might look bad in one Mogul franchise, he could be awesome in another just because of a few slight randomized changes.
It’s a great feature that quadruples the replayability of that game. I accidentally deleted a game where I had Dan Ortmeier develop into an all-star first baseman. The next game I started, he barely got of the bench for the dozen or so teams he happened to land with over his less-than-illustrious journeyman career.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Feb 3, 2009 11:30 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Aha. That would be why, then – I use the user created rosters that got packaged with one of the updates. One guys uses ZiPS (I think), and the other guy uses PECOTA projections. I use the file with the PECOTA projections.
Also, I added Pablo Sandoval with the player editor since he isn’t in the game yet. Entered his stats from last year as his projected stats (which is unrealistic, yes), and MAN is he awesome. He could be the first guy to bat .400 since Williams.
I'm as tall as Mel - why can't I hit 500 home runs?
by Ott on Feb 3, 2009 12:58 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I can’t believe Dunn stuck around until he’s 42. I can’t see that happening in real life. He’d have to have a BA around .050 his last few years.
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realized God doesn’t work that way, so I stole one and prayed for forgiveness. - Emo Philips
Neglectful father of David Quinowski
by marcello on Feb 3, 2009 1:47 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Dingerz!
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realized God doesn’t work that way, so I stole one and prayed for forgiveness. - Emo Philips
Neglectful father of David Quinowski
by marcello on Feb 3, 2009 1:50 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
To clarify
He retired following the 2018 season. It took until 2027 for him to the votes.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Feb 3, 2009 2:09 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
That's better
I’d still be somewhat surprised if he makes it that far.
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realized God doesn’t work that way, so I stole one and prayed for forgiveness. - Emo Philips
Neglectful father of David Quinowski
by marcello on Feb 3, 2009 2:11 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
If Dunn hits exactly 40 HR 5 more times
He gets the “Statistical abberation” benefit.
by Great Success! on Feb 3, 2009 8:55 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
THIS JUST IN!
HIS BEST DAYS ARE BEHIND HIM!
After a pretty awesome 2008 season, in 2009 Manny will sign with the A’s and hit .230/.344/.383 with 18 jacks in 151 games. Baseball Mogul says so!
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Feb 3, 2009 6:38 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
After that, he’ll never play in more than 75 games in a season, retiring as a Cub in 2012. He makes the HoF on the first ballot in 2017, though.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Feb 3, 2009 6:39 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm calling a downgrade in Manny's stats too
But not as low as THAT
by Great Success! on Feb 3, 2009 8:57 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
WRONG
He signed an extension with the Red Sox for 20.5 million and OPS’d .949, .918, and .840 through 2010. Then he signed with the Tigers and OPS’d .822, .738 in limited action, and .440 in more limiteder action.
The Basil Fawlty Moderating Strategy:
"We could run a nice blog here if we didn't have all these members getting in the way."
by WalrusMan on Feb 3, 2009 11:37 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Actually in 2009 he plays 145 games with the marlins and hits .225/.345/.412 with 24 HRs.
8.5 mil for 2 years!
Oh yeah and David Wright won the triple crown as a Giant.
by lincypoo i wuv u on Feb 4, 2009 1:25 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I can’t say I’m all YESYESYES, and I’m certainly not Meh on the vote. I’m a nice solid, “Hey, if we can land Manny for two years, I’m be for it. But if doesn’t work out, I’ll be okay with that too.” Shoot, I’d throw in a mutual option for year three.
But three or four guaranteed years, I’m all like, “No.”
"He called the sh** POOP!" -- Adam Sandler
by JRPhillips on Feb 3, 2009 9:59 AM PST reply actions 1 recs
"Hey, if we can land Manny for two years,I’mI’d be for it. But if doesn’t work out, I’ll be okay with that too."
"He called the sh** POOP!" -- Adam Sandler
by JRPhillips on Feb 3, 2009 10:48 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Try adding steamed mehlk
My adopted Giant: "Raptor Jesus" Guzman
by Goofus on Feb 3, 2009 11:07 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
or some Jamehson’s
They say some players get out of bed hitting; Pablo Sandoval doesn't wait that long
by bgunn on Feb 3, 2009 11:12 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
that might put me into the YESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESomg camp
by fwoty oz on Feb 3, 2009 11:15 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Could be stronger.
Adoptive father to the All-Father. Does that make me the All-Grandfather?
by EliminateMe on Feb 3, 2009 11:30 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
If I don't make it
tell my wife i said “hello”.
You get candy if you know the reference.
by Giant Voodoo on Feb 3, 2009 1:59 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
SHould we be worried?
My gut tells me maybe.
You sir are awesome. Now go get candy.
by Giant Voodoo on Feb 3, 2009 2:33 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I’ll also get candy, since I know a Futurama reference when I see one.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Feb 3, 2009 2:41 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I tried to ring in...
but my Zapper didn’t work.
Sweet, sweet candy.
''I love this cornbread so much, I want to take it behind a middle school, and get it pregnant.''
- Fred Lewis?
by Uribe nee Gonzalez on Feb 3, 2009 3:12 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Bam!
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Feb 3, 2009 3:19 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I wouldnt be mad
But I wouldn’t be overjoyed, either.
Manny causes problems with the Lewis/Sheirhotlz situation. I don’t like that.
But he also makes the team a lot better, so I don’t know.
by FairweatherFan on Feb 3, 2009 10:03 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
I’ve long been in the camp that Fred Lewis and Nate Schierholtz are not the kind of player who your forego quality acquisitions for in order to get more at bats. It would really hurt me to see either one get screwed over by a roster crunch again, but we’d likely just be taking ~ replacement level at bats away, anyway.
Now, Manny’s defense gives me some pause, and I’m not wild about him from a personal standpoint, but I have a hard time convincing myself that he’s worth passing up on a short deal just for the sake of seeing more of Lewis and Nate.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Feb 3, 2009 10:13 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Problem with that
Is 2010 and beyond. Nate and Lewis are our best bets for average or better corner OF’s after this year. Parking them both on the bench all season seems like a poor choice in that light.
Perhaps if Roberts is DFA’ed it makes more sense.
by FairweatherFan on Feb 3, 2009 10:18 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
If Manny is acquired and no one is traded...
Wouldn’t it be logically necessary to send at least one of them to Fresno, especially if Roberts isn’t DFA’ed (which won’t happen with Big Head as coach)?
STEVE HOLM! refuses to be the odd man out.
by UnleashTheGore on Feb 3, 2009 10:28 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Schierholtz is out of options, so he can’t get sent down without getting claimed by another team. I’m not sure about Fred Lewis.
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realized God doesn’t work that way, so I stole one and prayed for forgiveness. - Emo Philips
Neglectful father of David Quinowski
by marcello on Feb 3, 2009 10:51 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Pretty sure Lewis is as well. That’s why we had to keep Lewis and Thatguywe GotforMorris in the majors and Schierholtz went down.
The Basil Fawlty Moderating Strategy:
"We could run a nice blog here if we didn't have all these members getting in the way."
by WalrusMan on Feb 3, 2009 11:39 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
“but we’d likely just be taking ~ replacement level at bats away, anyway.”
Don’t we want to find out though? It’s like making a promise, (having guys play in your minor league system for years with the assumption they’ll get their shot) then breaking it. I know, dumb argument.
by Great Success! on Feb 3, 2009 9:03 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
this has been suggested a million times but its the best and only scenario that i would accept Manny: winn + Minor Leaguer for beltre, sign Manny. That gives us 60-70hrs at two positions where we would have had 20-30 hrs and gives the Giants a legit 2-3-4 lineup (renteria, beltre, manny)
by cazzuno on Feb 3, 2009 10:13 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm getting too used to Giants baseball
I read that as “60-70 hours at two positions” not “60-70 home runs at two positions”…
by VizquelQuest on Feb 3, 2009 10:25 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Eh… it’s still better than having him bat cleanup.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Feb 3, 2009 3:23 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Let's trade for Micah Owings
and bat HIM cleanup
by Great Success! on Feb 3, 2009 9:05 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
The one thing that keeps me in the “go after Manny” camp is that you get a great hitter at the same time you keep him away from the Dog-ears.
I’m luke warm on Manny in general, and am confident that the G’s front office will only do this on their terms. But I’m starting to think this may become a reality.
They say some players get out of bed hitting; Pablo Sandoval doesn't wait that long
by bgunn on Feb 3, 2009 10:07 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
yeah, this
The one thing that keeps me in the "go after Manny" camp is that you get a great hitter at the same time you keep him away from the Dog-ears.
Bengie: Like an Aurilia kidney stone, slow-moving and tough to get out.
by juanboy on Feb 3, 2009 10:23 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t mind Manny on the dodgers… our pitchers can strike him out, and I’ve seen him play left field, our speedsters can turn singles into triples off of his outfield prowess.
by Merope on Feb 3, 2009 2:51 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Manny could be the one run in 1-0 Cain losses, the catalyst for Barry Zito’s 1st inning implosions, maybe even an extra .10 on Lincecum’s ERA.
These possibilities hang as a shadow over the next two seasons. I love the inverse scenario- Cain pitching 8-0 shutouts, Zito winning 10-9, and Lincecum getting back the 5 wins lost last year by bullpen.
by SimpleJaquez on Feb 4, 2009 2:18 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
you meaning barry winning 9-8 ? with the extra “zip” on his canyon fastball.
by giantdonkey on Feb 4, 2009 8:56 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I’m generally a member of the Anti-Manny faction, but I would do it for 2 years, no problem.
I'm spent, just can't rosterbate anymore.
by oldjacket on Feb 3, 2009 10:16 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
I must be the only vehemently anti manny Giants fan on the interwebz…
it’s a lonely place…
Fairley odd parent to Wendell
by WTF on Feb 3, 2009 10:17 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
I'm really right there with ya
But sometimes I try not to let me anti-fandom get in the way of making the team better.
by FairweatherFan on Feb 3, 2009 10:19 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Arrgh! Me anti-fandom!
Is it national talk like a pirate day yet?
by FairweatherFan on Feb 3, 2009 10:20 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Aye, matey!
Sergio Romo: striking out professional hitters since 2005.
by Lyle on Feb 4, 2009 6:31 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
talk like a groundhog?
with manny, it is amazing so many of us can you be meh.
I kind of am meh too, because the beltre deal would make a big difference.
Grant, we need “yes with contingency”
adopter/sponsor of "Go, Antoan" Richardson
by foothillsfan on Feb 3, 2009 10:27 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
With the contingency that "Siberian Khatru" be played before all games.
This just in...Bobby Estalella can apply oral suction to a deceased pack animal's penile extremity.
by victor frankenstein on Feb 3, 2009 11:01 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, but no more than $50 mil
It would probably take that much, though, to get him to come to chilly, pitcher-friendly SF
STEVE HOLM! refuses to be the odd man out.
by UnleashTheGore on Feb 3, 2009 10:29 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
that rosenthal statement floored me
Like Boston or NY is not “chilly”? What a dumb statement. As well, the idea that SF is a pitcher’s park has been proven wrong. The only thing you can say is that it supresses home runs. Furthermore, it is unclear how much it supresses right handed homerun power as we have yet to see a true pull oriented right handed power hitter in the lineup since Kent left.
How Rosenthal is still considered an “expert” is beyond me.
Someone get Damon Minor's agent on the phone stat!
by fanofvanlandingham on Feb 3, 2009 10:58 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Have you ever been to these places during the summer?
They’re only chilly for a few weeks at the beginning of the season, and during the playoffs.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
by Bhaakon on Feb 3, 2009 12:30 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
thats fine
I am not sure 3 months of inconsitently chilly weather (only at night btw) is enough to make a statement like Rosenthal made.
Someone get Damon Minor's agent on the phone stat!
by fanofvanlandingham on Feb 3, 2009 12:57 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
my impossible fantasy…that Sabean gets a decent deal by trading Winn or Rowand lined up BEFORE acquiring Manny. Ahhhh, fantasy
adopter/sponsor of "Go, Antoan" Richardson
by foothillsfan on Feb 3, 2009 10:31 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
what about the money?
There’s basically no way for this deal to work without increasing payroll this year unless either (a) Manny accepts significantly less money in the short term (2009), or (b) The Giants successfully deal Winn, Rowand and Roberts (about $26.75M) and play Fred in CF and Nate in RF + we’d still need to find 2 more outfielders (Bowker? whoever we pick up in a deal).
However, if the Giants sign Manny they will likely be forced to increase payroll. The team already has about $88M payroll for this season and $52 for next season. a 2-year/$50M Manny deal would make this year’s payroll (assuming each season he gets $25M) at $113M and next years at $88. More likely, it’d be backloaded a bit like $20/$30m or $15/$35M. (I doubt Manny would take a contract with very much deferred.) Either way, that puts the payroll way over the team’s more or less customary $90m level.
Heck, if they want to spend more then why not, but I really haven’t seen or heard anything from the Giants, Nuke’em included, that indicates they want to go that far over payroll to sign Manny or anyone else.
Anything more than two years for Manny would be a huge mistake. Of course, that’ll probably be what it takes to get him for whoever signs him eventually.
Proud adopted parent of future big league slugger Thomas Neal
by nostocksjustbonds on Feb 3, 2009 10:48 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
They are going to use the secret stash of Maddux Money™ that’s been laying around for five years.
by xanthan on Feb 3, 2009 10:50 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
a case of internet ethics
I wanted to post a post from your blog as a reply to the “We Want Manny” brigade, but since you post here (often), I thought better of it. I think you should, as I think it contributes to this discussion. Let’s just say that I agree with your bottom line, and I do not know that changing the the contract to a 2-year deal changes the analysis.
Personally I cannot see how $50m for Manny is cost-effective as I do not believe he will replicate his ’08 season – defensively or offensively. And at 36, there is a increased chance of significant injury which really make the contract an albatross. The Giants already have one of those; I thought we were in a new era of fiscal responsibility!?
''I love this cornbread so much, I want to take it behind a middle school, and get it pregnant.''
- Fred Lewis?
by Uribe nee Gonzalez on Feb 3, 2009 11:52 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree that Manny isn’t worth $25m/year based on his age and attitude. He’s probably worth $15M + incentives on a year by year basis, but he’ll never go for that.
Proud adopted parent of future big league slugger Thomas Neal
by nostocksjustbonds on Feb 3, 2009 2:36 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I've made a huge mistake...
STEVE HOLM! refuses to be the odd man out.
by UnleashTheGore on Feb 3, 2009 10:52 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
we should just sign Franklin
''I love this cornbread so much, I want to take it behind a middle school, and get it pregnant.''
- Fred Lewis?
by Uribe nee Gonzalez on Feb 3, 2009 11:34 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
hmmm.
maybe we should increase payroll? Crazy talk, I know.
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
by zenbitz on Feb 3, 2009 3:14 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
not necessarily crazy in normal years, but this year might not be the best year to do it.
Proud adopted parent of future big league slugger Thomas Neal
by nostocksjustbonds on Feb 3, 2009 9:27 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I wanted to vote "What the... of course not."...
…but in fact I never respected this blog.
Adoptive father to the All-Father. Does that make me the All-Grandfather?
by EliminateMe on Feb 3, 2009 10:51 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Point of parlimentary procedure!
There would be a logjam in the outfield, but in the worst-case scenario — teams aren’t willing to trade for Randy Winn or Aaron Rowand, and the Giants get lowballed on Fred Lewis — the logjam would only be for a season.
If they sign Manny to a 2-year deal, wouldn’t the logjam extend into 2010 as well? (Manny, Rowand, Lewis, Nate.)
Well I’m not going to sit her and listen to you badmouth the United States of America!
My adopted Giant: "Raptor Jesus" Guzman
by Goofus on Feb 3, 2009 10:58 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Kevin Frandsen is in the "YESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESomg" camp
XM Radio has an audio clip of Kevin saying he wants Manny on the Giants.
by Lars The Wanderer on Feb 3, 2009 11:00 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
One other thought...
A two-year deal might be the perfect solution for a guy like Manny. It might strike the balance between him being pissed off and he might actually play for a new contract for two whole years. Hopefully, the apparent anger he has toward the Dodgers will help him stay fired up.
I also gotta say that really dislike wondering whether a guy you’re about to sign to big bucks is gonna quit on you.
My adopted Giant: "Raptor Jesus" Guzman
by Goofus on Feb 3, 2009 11:00 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
When you consider the number of years, the number of outfielders already on the roster, the dollars it will take to sign him, then add in that he is a flake, it really makes me not want him. Too bad he is the exact type of bat this team needs. He provides the perfect formula for hot stove speculation involving the Giants.
If they could just trade Rowand….
by out machine on Feb 3, 2009 11:13 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
A two-year deal might be the perfect solution for a guy like Manny. It might strike the balance between him being pissed off and he might actually play for a new contract for two whole years. Hopefully, the apparent anger he has toward the Dodgers will help him stay fired up.
That’s a big thing about a two-year contract. It not only limits our risk, but it ensures that he’s playing for a contract for no less than half the time he’s with us. That’s a huge variable with a weirdo like Manny.
by onlxn on Feb 3, 2009 11:20 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
This might actually be a good sign...
THe dodgers not wanting to commit means that Manny is worth it. LA operates in bizzarro world were all veterans worth long term contracts they offer short term contracts to. And the ones not worth the risk they offer long term contracts (Pierre, Schmidt, Jones and many many more). So in a weird kind of way this means manny is worth the risk.
I am on a vendetta to make sports enjoyable to watch again, and Mr. Buck you are at the top of my LIST!!! Mr. Selig don’t get to upset you are number TWO!!!
by say hey nation on Feb 3, 2009 11:22 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
There aren’t any particularly solid reasons not to sign Manny Ramirez on a two-year deal.
Blocks Fred and/or Nate? Trade one of ‘em. The utility of guys like that is that you save money on their slots that you can spend on stars elsewhere. That’s a nice, useful thing… but if you can put a star in their slot, you do it and don’t think twice about it. They’re both average and cheap, so they’re both eminently tradeable.
Too much money? Maybe, but what’s our money for? If the Giants are considering Manny, they’ve got at least $20 million extra they’re willing to spend this year. How else would you prefer they spend it? Remember, “international signings and draft picks” is not a valid answer… we’re not going to become the first team in baseball history to pour twenty million dollars into that. And if you’re a Giants fan, I’m assuming you’d rather see the money go into the team than stay in ownership’s pockets.
It precludes us getting Holliday in 2010? Well, why the hell do we think we’d be able to get Matt Holliday? We could get a free agent now that’d put us in the driver’s seat in the division in ’09… we should pass that up for a slight chance at a guy that could do that for us a year later? Not a smart trade.
Manny is old, defensively worthless and crazy. He is also a no-brainer for this team, at this time, at the terms that seem likely. I hope Sabean gets this done.
by onlxn on Feb 3, 2009 11:30 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
One consideration
is that the Giants have the 6th pick in the 2009 First Year Player Draft and cannot lose that pick (to the Dodgers, no less!) even though Manny is a Type A free agent. If they are indeed an improving team there is a chance that they select in the latter half of the draft order in 2010 and could lose their first round pick if they sign another Type A free agent. So this offseason may be their last chance to take advantage of a poor W-L record and signing Manny would actually make that scenario even more of a possibility.
by baseballjunkie on Feb 3, 2009 11:35 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
i hope
i was meh, but i hope the front office is working the phones feverishly to see what we can get for winn/rowand. i don’t see the giants making a move for manny, until they are POSITIVE they can move one of the two. all along, they’ve said that they don’t want to do ANYTHING to hinder development of the younger players, so sticking lewis ( i know.. 28) and nate on the bench won’t happen.
by giantdonkey on Feb 3, 2009 11:43 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
The problem with this strategy
Is that bringing on Manny signifies that the team is trying to win now. 2009/2010.
The likely best outfield (including Manny) for 2009 is Manny/Rowand/Winn.
This suggests that, to unjam the OF, either Fred or Nate should be traded.
This ignores of course the potential need to dump salary, which would dictate Rowand or Winn should go. – But signing Manny is in of itself incompatible w/ limiting salary, so I don’t think this makes as much sense.
Which OF is projected to contribute more WAR in 2009? Manny/Rowand/Winn or Manny/Rowand/Lewis.
by FairweatherFan on Feb 3, 2009 11:51 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Alright, so
Some loose guesses as to total wins next year (based off fangraphs)
Since Rowand isn’t going anywhere, he stays constant.
Manny + Lewis = 6 wins
Manny + Winn = 7 wins
Lewis + Winn = 5 wiins
Clearly, to make the most out of the Manny Aquisition, you want to keep Winn around or else you are giving 50% of what you have gained back.
Manny, at a 2 win gain over Fred Lewis, is worth ~ 10m to this team. If Lewis was traded to make room, the team would effectively be paying 20m for Manny or 10m per win.
If instead Winn was traded, the gain over Lewis+Winn is only 1 win, and the team is paying 20 – ~ 8m (winn’s salary) or 12m for that 1 win upgrade.
Pretty poor return on investment in either case, but certainly the former is preferable to the latter.
by FairweatherFan on Feb 3, 2009 11:59 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Lastly
The best possible outcome is Manny/Lewis/Winn for a OF total of 9 wins vs. any of those combined w/ Rowand.
But that is not going to happen, so forgetaboutit.
by FairweatherFan on Feb 3, 2009 12:01 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
The hidden factor
The hidden factor is how much having Manny and the likely resultant competitiveness would add extra attendance and revenue. The Giants are in better position to estimate that than we are.
by sharksrog on Feb 3, 2009 12:43 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
While it would be an overpay, you have to consider that the Giants are a fringe playoff team so each win is worth more to them. If the 2 win difference is the difference between making and not making the playoffs, then his cost will almost certainly be worth it.
All that said, I don’t know where I stand on the Manny debate any more. I just want it over so we can analyze the deal and upcoming season, and move on.
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realized God doesn’t work that way, so I stole one and prayed for forgiveness. - Emo Philips
Neglectful father of David Quinowski
by marcello on Feb 3, 2009 1:40 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Fringe play-off team? Extra Attendance and Revenue?
I’m glad FwF made his argument and showed his work, because I’ve been thinking along those lines on the Manny Signing. $25 Million a year is too much for the $10 or so his extra wins are valued.
Even with Ramirez the Giants are only a Fringe-Play-off-team IF the rest of the West sucks, and IF the infield youngsters perform well. If Ishi flops, 2nd-half Velez doesn’t show up, and Renteria and Sandoval can’t get to any grounders on the left side or bring Dingerz with them to the plate. If Phelps and Uribe claim the infield corner spots the extra wins Manny should bring doesn’t matter.
And then when it doesn’t matter, ManRAM doesn’t show up. And then the fans he was supposed to bring to the stadium, decide they don’t like this whiny, loser, non-GAMER Giants team after all.
He’s old and not “athletic” to begin with. He’s temperamental in a way I think it effects his performance on the field (unlike say Bonds or Kent). And he wants a contract that reflects the 6-7 WAR from last year and not the projected 3-4.
Kent. Hall of Famer. Giant.
by kennv on Feb 4, 2009 6:17 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Well put. I can imagine a scenario in which Manny makes a difference in whether the Giants get to the playoffs or not, but it’s awfully far-fetched. Not worth the many risks.
by Evan on Feb 4, 2009 7:23 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
That’s why I’m secretly hoping that a Manny deal cascades into a huge push for Dan Uggla and Adrian Beltre. I know, I know…. I just can’t stop thinking about Dan Uggla.
by Grant on Feb 4, 2009 9:36 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
But it should go the other way around, right? If we get Beltre or Uggla, we’ve filled one of our biggest holes and suddenly pushing all-in to land Manny makes a lot more sense. But we don’t know whether their teams want to trade them now, what we’d have to give up, etc. Better to solve that problem before committing ourselves to the simplest and most expensive piece of the puzzle.
by Evan on Feb 4, 2009 9:50 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
If we got Beltre and Uggla, it wouldn’t make me want Manny more. I think the offense/defense) team would have a nice blend of youth (Pablo/Ishi, Fred/Nate) + established players (Uggla, Winn, Molina, Renteria, Beltre). Manny’s power would be nice, but the team without him would potentially have 15-30 HR power at every position.
My adopted Giant: "Raptor Jesus" Guzman
by Goofus on Feb 4, 2009 10:37 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I think most good projections would have us as legitimate NL West contenders, even more so if we were to sign Manny. If you don’t believe that, fine, but I’m pretty sure I’m the one on solid ground here.
Also, I don’t think you realize how much money a team gets from making the playoffs. It’s not just the playoff ticket sales/concessions/merchandise, it’s also a bump in future sales (tickets, merchandise, etc.). THAT was my point. Not that he would put more people in the stands for 2009, which I never said. Naturally, I can’t find the study on how much making the playoffs increases future revenue, but if Manny were the difference he’d be worth more than $5MM/win.
Anyways, the point I made was that wins don’t have a set value. 2 extra wins are worth much more to a team like the Giants than to a team like the Padres. Context is important.
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realized God doesn’t work that way, so I stole one and prayed for forgiveness. - Emo Philips
Neglectful father of David Quinowski
by marcello on Feb 4, 2009 10:55 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I know you mentioned attendance, I replied to you, but tried to use the subject line to show I was responding to sharksrog as well. A clunky effort on my part.
2 extra wins is worth like 10 million right? So is maybe getting to the playoffs worth $15? Getting the playoffs is worth $15 to the team for sure. Is ManRAM merchandise ValueOverReplacementShirt worth overspending? Finally, I wonder if 1 win = $5 million is a good benchmark for this offseason, or if the market has/will shift noticeably for 2009.
I’d rather the Giants lurk with their money and snap up players in trades mid-season from teams struggling financially or in the standings or both. At that point they can also target areas of need – is Ishikawa panning out? is Sandoval back at catcher? Did Frandsen break again, and Velez suck again? The team can also judge whether they are in contention. Mid-season acquisitions are the classic time for teams to decide just how much two-wins means to them.
Kent. Hall of Famer. Giant.
by kennv on Feb 4, 2009 11:37 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
again
Mid-season acquisitions are the classic time for teams to decide just how much two-wins means to them.
Agreed. At mid season, a team typically has a pretty good idea of how things are working out. If that team is in the thick of it, a two win addition is worth a LOT more than 10m.
by FairweatherFan on Feb 4, 2009 11:47 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
True
Although, it’s hard to get a 2 win acquisition at the trade deadline since there is only ~1/3 of the season left.
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realized God doesn’t work that way, so I stole one and prayed for forgiveness. - Emo Philips
Neglectful father of David Quinowski
by marcello on Feb 4, 2009 11:56 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, you’d need some crazy insane production to happen for a player to be worth 2 wins in that time period.
by xanthan on Feb 4, 2009 11:58 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, something like...
.396/.489/.743 in 187 AB’s.
by FairweatherFan on Feb 4, 2009 12:07 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Last year was a pretty crazy year for deadline acquisitions when you consider Sabathia as well.
Just to take it a little further, it’s not even just acquiring a guy who will play like a 6 win player over the last 1/3 of a year. You have to acquire a guy who will play that much better than the guys you already have to get the 2 win improvement.
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realized God doesn’t work that way, so I stole one and prayed for forgiveness. - Emo Philips
Neglectful father of David Quinowski
by marcello on Feb 4, 2009 12:26 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
2 extra wins are worth much more to a team like the Giants than to a team like the Padres. Context is important.
Absolutely, and this is my main problem w/ the whole win values arguement. It really should be something of an exponential curve – the more wins a team is projected to get, the more each additional win is worth.
Winning 92 games instead of 90 games is worth a whole lot more than 72 instead of 70.
by FairweatherFan on Feb 4, 2009 11:46 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
conversely
The cost of those wins is what the win values argument is trying to address, and the general idea that a 1 WAR player is ~ 4.5 m on the free agent market is sound.
However, common sense would dictate that it shouldnt be linear. a 4 WAR player should be higher than 4 x a 1 WAR player salary wise because there is limited space on the roster to compile the max # of wins.
Now, by how much? I don’t know.
by FairweatherFan on Feb 4, 2009 11:51 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Only if
I would sign Manny only if I wanted to win.
by sharksrog on Feb 3, 2009 12:43 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
and I would make a trade for Hank Blalock if I really, really wanted to lose.
by FluLikeSymptoms on Feb 3, 2009 1:44 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I think I voted for the no option but I really meant to say, “Oh fuck it, let’s do it.”
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on Feb 3, 2009 12:48 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
"Oh fuck it, let’s do it."
that’s how we got Zito!
Proud adopted parent of future big league slugger Thomas Neal
by nostocksjustbonds on Feb 3, 2009 2:38 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
“Hey, when am I going to be in Haiti again?”
Adoptive father to the All-Father. Does that make me the All-Grandfather?
by EliminateMe on Feb 3, 2009 3:06 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
bad idea jeans!
I got one word for you: "youneverknow"
by senorvegas on Feb 4, 2009 12:02 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
D:
good point. Manny is much better than Zito though. And we’re talking 2 years, not 7.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on Feb 3, 2009 3:29 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
yeah. I know. I just couldn’t resist.
you could make the argument that Manny is in decline, however (last year’s 2 months with the Dodgers notwithstanding.)
Proud adopted parent of future big league slugger Thomas Neal
by nostocksjustbonds on Feb 3, 2009 9:28 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
definitely
in the yes yes omg yes camp. 2 years of manny here (who is maybe crazy, but definitely wants to win, and wins everywhere he goes), vs 2 years of manny in la.
he makes the whole team better and that makes me happy. especially in a year where i’m trying to go to 40 games.
by scottishgiants on Feb 3, 2009 12:57 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
I Can't Believe The Majority Wants $50M Spent On Manny
Here is how Manny stacks up against our current starting outfielders over first the last two years and then the average of the five free and publicly available projection systems for 2009 with defense just from Chone..
Player————wRAA/150——-UZR/150——ODRAA/150
Manny—————-(38.7)————(-15.9)—————-(22.8)
Freddie—————(05.9)————(04.5)—————(10.4)
Randy——————(11.9)————(10.3)—————(22.2)
Rowand—————(13.9)————(+08.4)—————(22.3)
Player————wRAA/150———RS/150——ODRAA/150
Manny—————-(38.6)—————(-15)—————(23.6)
Freddie—————(02.7)————-(01)—————(03.7)
Randy——————(02.2)————-(07)—————(09.2)
Rowand—————(03.8)————-(+07)————-(10.8)
Me thinks you all are paying way too much attention to 2008 when Manny was actually motivated and even played defense.
Player————wRAA/150——-UZR/150——ODRAA/150
Manny—————-(53.8)————-(-06.7)—————(47.1)
Freddie—————(10.1)————(05.6)—————(15.7)
Randy——————(12.4)————(17.3)—————(29.7)
Rowand—————(-1.8)————-(-01.1)————-(-02.9)
Do you realy think the Manny that showed up for the Dodgers in the second half of last year will be the Manny we will get for this $50M expense? I sure don’t. I think we will be lucky to get the one the average of the projection systems expects in 2009 and are more likely to get the average of 2007 and 2008 Manny. 2007 and 2008 actual performance has Manny worth just 1 more win (12.4) runs the Lewis and just breakeven with Rowand and Winn. 2009 average projections has Manny worth just 1 more win (12.8 and 14.4 runs respectively) then Rowand and Winn. They also only see him worth 2 more wins the Lewis (19.9 runs). Are you really willing to spend $25M per year for this net add of just 1 to 2 wins?
by giantsrainman on Feb 3, 2009 1:03 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Fred Lewis, Better Than You Think!
(cross-posted from the Abrue thread)
Replacing Fred Lewis with Manny should add a little over +2 wins to the Giants for ’09.
by xanthan on Feb 3, 2009 1:07 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Not Sure At All How This Disagrees Significantly With What I Posted
You have Fred Lewis projected to be .2 runs above average (22.7 -22.5) while I have him projected to be 3.7 runs above average.
You have Manny Ramirez projected to be 21.6 runs above average (44.1 – 22.5) while I have him projected to be 23.6 runs above average. If you are providing this to support my position then thanks, but why did you title it as a reply to me “Fred Lewis, Better Then You Think!”? This makes me think you think I think poorly of Fred Lewis when in fact you and I think the same of Fred Lewis.
by giantsrainman on Feb 3, 2009 1:18 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
And, the ‘Better Than You Think!’ wasn’t directed to you, really, but to everybody.
by xanthan on Feb 3, 2009 1:19 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Cool, I Just Was't Sure If Title Of You Post Was Aimed At Me Or Those That Disagree With Me.
by giantsrainman on Feb 3, 2009 1:20 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
If not Manny......
Well, obviously the answer is to bring in A-Rod. Where is the Rainman sez: picture when you need it?
Why isn't Sabean held accountable for leading the Giants into many years of mediocrity???
by oldrips on Feb 3, 2009 2:52 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
his chart has color. therefore it is superior.
Proud adopted parent of future big league slugger Thomas Neal
by nostocksjustbonds on Feb 3, 2009 2:39 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't know what RAR is...but it's fun to say.
Really…“RAR!”
This just in...Bobby Estalella can apply oral suction to a deceased pack animal's penile extremity.
by victor frankenstein on Feb 4, 2009 7:25 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Haha
You can’t spell Abreu.
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realized God doesn’t work that way, so I stole one and prayed for forgiveness. - Emo Philips
Neglectful father of David Quinowski
by marcello on Feb 3, 2009 1:44 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I really can’t. I had to go over my article on him like 20 times to make sure.
by xanthan on Feb 3, 2009 1:45 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Your R-levels are kinda puzzling to me....
As in, shouldn’t FLew and Dunn have 2.0’s, Ibanez have a 2.5, and ManRam have like a 2.45 (since he spent just a small portion of his career in the NL)?
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
Your 2009 Opening Day starter at second base*: Eugenio Velez
*For the Fresno Grizzlies
by baetown415 on Feb 3, 2009 6:44 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I should say that the graph is for projected 2009 numbers and I’m placing them all in the NL, hence the 2.25 replacement level. Fangraphs uses 20 runs per 600 PAs replacement, and 700 takes you to about 23 runs. I just stick with 2.25 wins for replacement in all of my projections.
by xanthan on Feb 3, 2009 6:52 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I gotcha
But I thought that with projecting players forward, you need to make the league adjustment based on which league the player has been in, no?
For an example I pulled out of my rear (or brain), if Player A has three outstanding years (say a true-talent +20 runs with the bat and +10 in the field, plus the +25-run R-level [I’m just using per 600 PA’s for simplicity’s sake] and + 2.5 runs for position, making him +5.75 WAR) in the AL , then moves to the NL for season 4, that player’s projection is still a 5.75 WAR player, i.e. he “keeps” the added difficulty of playing in the AL in his first-year projection, then in year 2, let’s say his hitting and fielding contributions remain the same at the same position, but now his R-level for his projection for year 2 is now knocked down to, say, +23.5 runs above replacement, because now the projection has to account for his being in the NL for a full year and the most recent year.
Right? or not right?
/uploads a deciphering device onto the computer’s hard drive
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
Your 2009 Opening Day starter at second base*: Eugenio Velez
*For the Fresno Grizzlies
by baetown415 on Feb 3, 2009 7:35 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree.
''I love this cornbread so much, I want to take it behind a middle school, and get it pregnant.''
- Fred Lewis?
by Uribe nee Gonzalez on Feb 3, 2009 1:16 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
2 wins, is of course
huge.
Also, you can trade Lewis – he actually has value unlike say, Rowand. Probably more value than Winn or Molina.
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
by zenbitz on Feb 3, 2009 3:17 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Aren’t there some issues with the defensive metrics and players playing left in Fenway? I seem to recall reading something about how Manny probably wasn’t as bad as people made him out to be on defense.
We're all basically Pedro Feliz.
by SF Pete on Feb 3, 2009 3:41 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Ramirez played more than adequate defense for LA last season. He had all the routine plays that you would expect. He also displayed a better than expected arm.
by wilriv21 on Feb 3, 2009 3:43 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
yes the Fenway factor is not counted in. also these defensive metrics are not anywhere near as precise as the offensive ones and can’t really be counted on with as much confidence.
to put it this way, any defensive system that winds up having Manny and Rowand being equal players overall over the past 2 seasons is wrong.
by sanfranfan on Feb 3, 2009 3:44 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
to put it this way, any defensive system that winds up having Manny and Rowand being equal players overall over the past 2 seasons is wrong.
Put it this way, show me such a magical defensive metric. And, Rowand was horrible defensively last year. Did you miss the games?
by xanthan on Feb 3, 2009 3:57 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Also Rowand is being compared to Grady Sizemore and Curtis Granderson. Manny is being compared to the group of Manatees taking up left field for most organizations.
I'm spent, just can't rosterbate anymore.
by oldjacket on Feb 3, 2009 4:02 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Yup, great point oldjacket. Peer group matters.
by xanthan on Feb 3, 2009 4:15 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I Adjusted For This In My UZR/150 Figures For Rowand Above
I gave Aaron 150/162 of the 10 run positional adjustment from CF (+2.5) and LF (-7.5) for an adjustment of 9.3 runs in Rowand’s favor compared to Manny, Freddie and Randy.
by giantsrainman on Feb 3, 2009 4:35 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
It's Ain't Boston - Manny Was Just That Bad On Defense
The Following compares Manny last 3 full years at Boston (2005 thru 2007) with his last three great years prior to 2008 (2002 thru 2004) all in Boston as well.
Manny————wRAA/150——-UZR/150——ODRAA/150
2005-7————-(38.8)————-(-20.1)————(17.7)
2002-4——-——(52.5)————(+00.1)————(52.6)
From this you can see that while Manny maintained most of his offense but his defense really got just that bad and Boston had nothing to do with it.
by giantsrainman on Feb 3, 2009 4:14 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
The numbers don’t fit my preconceived notions, therefore they are wrong. QED.
It’s funny that people don’t realize defensive play can fluctuate year to year. For some reason, many people seem to think that someone is worth x amount of runs defensively each year and that it won’t/shouldn’t change. Defense is just like offense, you’ll have good years and bad years.
OPS in 2007:
Rowand – .889 (wOBA .382)
Manny – .881 (wOBA .375)
Did anyone really believe that Rowand was a better hitter than Manny at that point? Of course not. Is it that hard to believe the the same type of career best and worst could match up defensively as well? It shouldn’t be.
/scattered rant over
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realized God doesn’t work that way, so I stole one and prayed for forgiveness. - Emo Philips
Neglectful father of David Quinowski
by marcello on Feb 3, 2009 4:15 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Did anyone really believe that Rowand was a better hitter than Manny at that point?
I think the Giants maybe did!
by xanthan on Feb 3, 2009 4:16 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Better Hitter - No! Equal Overall Player For Foreseeable Furture - Maybe!
by giantsrainman on Feb 3, 2009 4:18 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
FAIL
Why isn't Sabean held accountable for leading the Giants into many years of mediocrity???
by oldrips on Feb 3, 2009 5:33 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Closer Then You Are Willing To Acknowledge
Rowand’s bad 2008 averaged with his good 2007 just worth .5 runs per year less then Manny’s good 2008 averaged with his bad 2007. Further, Rowand’s average projection for 2009 just 12.8 runs less then Manny’s. Therefore the reason I said “Maybe”.
by giantsrainman on Feb 3, 2009 5:55 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t care what statistics or projections you drag out, but there is no way in any scenario that
ROWAND = MANNY
It’s just not fact. Period. End of discussion.
Why isn't Sabean held accountable for leading the Giants into many years of mediocrity???
by oldrips on Feb 3, 2009 8:26 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
What if..
Manny has one or two good seasons left in him and Rowand bounces back and has 4 above average seasons? Will their value even out?
I’m not giving support for either side, just throwing it out there. I was against the signing, but a 2 year contract at the right price is very difficult for me to argue against.
by chilibean_3 on Feb 3, 2009 8:32 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
The Problem With Your Thinking Is That You Are Living In The Past
You think Manny is still the player he was from 2002 thru 2005 when in fact he is now far more likely to be the player he was from 2005 thru 2007.
Manny————wRAA/150——-UZR/150——ODRAA/150
2005-7————-(38.8)————-(-20.1)————(18.7)
2002-4——-——(52.5)————(+00.1)————(52.6)
Aaron Rowand has had years that not only matched but exceed what Manny did from 2005 thru 2007 and he certainly has the potential to do so for the remainder of his contract with the Giants as well.
Bottom line, you are being fooled by Manny’s 2008 into believing that the good Manny (2002 thru 2004) has returned for the near term future when this is very unlikely to be the case.
by giantsrainman on Feb 3, 2009 8:42 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
No, the problem is that you can’t differentiate excrement from shoe polish (shit from shinola). Aaron Rowand couldn’t carry Manny’s jock, in the past, now, and in the future…..and that includes good Manny, bad Manny, pouting Manny, and any other Manny you want to talk about.
I’ll say it again……….under no set of facts, projections, hypothoses, etc. does ROWAND = MANNY.
Why isn't Sabean held accountable for leading the Giants into many years of mediocrity???
by oldrips on Feb 4, 2009 8:32 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
except for
In those years where Rowand was better than Manny.
by FairweatherFan on Feb 4, 2009 9:56 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
well played.
Kent. Hall of Famer. Giant.
by kennv on Feb 4, 2009 10:42 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Which is, ofcourse,.....
Zero
Why isn't Sabean held accountable for leading the Giants into many years of mediocrity???
by oldrips on Feb 4, 2009 12:21 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
2007 happened. It’s an actual year. For reals. I don’t know what system you prefer, so let’s try a few. Keep in mind throughout this that Manny played a horrible LF and Rowand played a great CF.
Triple slash:
Rowand – .309/.374/.515
Manny – .296/.388/.493
OPS+:
Rowand – 123
Manny – 126
wOBA:
Rowand – .382
Manny – .375
WAR:
Rowand – 5.9
Manny – 1.2 <— OWNED
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realized God doesn’t work that way, so I stole one and prayed for forgiveness. - Emo Philips
Neglectful father of David Quinowski
by marcello on Feb 4, 2009 12:36 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
You conveniently leave out the fact that Rowand played in about 30 more games and mor than 150 ABs more than Manny that year.
Here’s a few easy ways to figure out who’s better:
Who is legimately worth $20+M in salary and who is overpaid at $10M+?
If given a schoolyard choice of who to pick for your team, who do you choose?
Who is going t the HOF as a player and who is going as a spectator?
Why isn't Sabean held accountable for leading the Giants into many years of mediocrity???
by oldrips on Feb 4, 2009 1:08 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
You conveniently leave out the fact that Rowand played in about 30 more games and mor than 150 ABs more than Manny that year.
You shouldn’t penalize Rowand for being more durable than Manny. WAR is a counting stat in that the more you play, the more production you rack up. That’s not a bad thing. After all, we want good players who can play as much as possible.
I don’t think anyone is saying that Rowand > Manny career wise, but that Rowand’s 2007 was really good and he was better than Manny that season.
by xanthan on Feb 4, 2009 1:13 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Even 2008 Dodger Manny couldn’t generate 5 wins in 30 games.
I'm spent, just can't rosterbate anymore.
by oldjacket on Feb 4, 2009 1:32 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
If given a schoolyard choice of who to pick for your team, who do you choose?
It’s good to know that you’re using a 6 year old to guide your thinking.
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realized God doesn’t work that way, so I stole one and prayed for forgiveness. - Emo Philips
Neglectful father of David Quinowski
by marcello on Feb 4, 2009 1:33 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Also
Who is legimately worth $20+M in salary and who is overpaid at $10M+?
Not Manny and not Rowand, assuming they both likely regress.
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realized God doesn’t work that way, so I stole one and prayed for forgiveness. - Emo Philips
Neglectful father of David Quinowski
by marcello on Feb 4, 2009 1:37 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Also
Who is legimately worth $20+M in salary and who is overpaid at $10M+?
Not Manny and not Rowand, assuming they both likely regress.
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realized God doesn’t work that way, so I stole one and prayed for forgiveness. - Emo Philips
Neglectful father of David Quinowski
by marcello on Feb 4, 2009 1:38 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Stupid laggy SBN
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realized God doesn’t work that way, so I stole one and prayed for forgiveness. - Emo Philips
Neglectful father of David Quinowski
by marcello on Feb 4, 2009 1:39 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
This is how I think i was able to post the same comment in 3 different spots at the same time the other day when you asked me how I did this.
Giant Dirtbags: Brian Anderson, Todd Jennings, Steve Hammond, John Bowker
Don't F with the Affeldt
by Giant among Angels on Feb 4, 2009 10:11 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I’ve seen the double post happen many, many times, just never in 3 different spots.
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realized God doesn’t work that way, so I stole one and prayed for forgiveness. - Emo Philips
Neglectful father of David Quinowski
by marcello on Feb 4, 2009 10:29 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I guess its safe to assume the baseball gods were fuckin’ around and had nothing better to do.
Giant Dirtbags: Brian Anderson, Todd Jennings, Steve Hammond, John Bowker
Don't F with the Affeldt
by Giant among Angels on Feb 4, 2009 10:39 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Lastly
Who is going t the HOF as a player and who is going as a spectator?
Who the fuck is arguing that but you?
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realized God doesn’t work that way, so I stole one and prayed for forgiveness. - Emo Philips
Neglectful father of David Quinowski
by marcello on Feb 4, 2009 1:39 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Good try, but none of these points make the argument that 2007 Manny was better than 2007 Rowand. That was the question at hand.
My adopted Giant: "Raptor Jesus" Guzman
by Goofus on Feb 4, 2009 1:59 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
NO
The original argument was that 2009 Rowand is the functional equivalent of 2009 Manny, therefore the Giants should not sign him. There’s is no way in hell that is true. I’d much rather have 2009 Manny over 2009 Rowand any day.
Why isn't Sabean held accountable for leading the Giants into many years of mediocrity???
by oldrips on Feb 4, 2009 2:35 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
dude seriously
FWF said:
except for
In those years where Rowand was better than Manny.
You replied:
Which is, ofcourse,…..
Zero
Then marcello provided stats that showed Rowand did indeed have a year better than Manny.
Making you owned.
by Viliphied on Feb 4, 2009 2:38 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
ownedrips?
My adopted Giant: "Raptor Jesus" Guzman
by Goofus on Feb 4, 2009 2:54 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
No, It Was That There Is Reason To Believe This Maybe The Case
You just decided to ignore all of those reasons because they do not agree with your preconceptions.
by giantsrainman on Feb 4, 2009 2:56 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
No One Even Argued It Likely Will Be The Case
What was argued was that it was the case when their performances for 2007 and 2008 are averaged (just a half run advantage for Manny) and the average of the 5 free and publicly available projection systems only see a 12.8 run difference (yes in Manny’s favor) in 2009.
by giantsrainman on Feb 4, 2009 3:01 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
You’re assuming Rowand will be healthy for next four years, when he’s only been healthy two of the last six. That’s a mighty big assumption. Now, when Rowand is healthy, he can be very productive, but his health will always be a question and you can just as easily argue that his biggest asset (defense) is in decline as well.
by cornball on Feb 4, 2009 10:27 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
bUZR is park adjusted, and I do believe it takes into account for Fenway. But I’m not %100 certain.
by xanthan on Feb 3, 2009 3:56 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, it does
So ManRam goes from looking Velez-at-short-esque (the HORROR) in Plus/Minus to just really bad in bUZR.
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
Your 2009 Opening Day starter at second base*: Eugenio Velez
*For the Fresno Grizzlies
by baetown415 on Feb 3, 2009 6:45 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Kevin Kennedy is a mentally handicapped douchebag.
“Adam Dunn is like an action hero! He is like Arnold Schwarzenegger!”
by Lars The Wanderer on Feb 3, 2009 1:26 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
God I can’t stand him. Do you ever listen to him on XM? Every story starts with: “WELL, WHEN I WAS COACH IN BOSTON, [PLAYER NAME] WOULD COME UP TO ME AND SAY, HEY SKIP…..BLAH BLAH BLAH”
by xanthan on Feb 3, 2009 1:27 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I was listening to XM when I typed the above. He makes me want to vomit on his face.
by Lars The Wanderer on Feb 3, 2009 1:50 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
It’s nothing but 100% player stories. He was a manager for two years at the major league level and he acts like he’s John fucking McGraw.
by xanthan on Feb 3, 2009 1:53 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
he and FP should meet.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on Feb 3, 2009 1:57 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
ROB DIBBLE IS EVEN WORSE!!
Rob doesn’t like Cain because he doesn’t win!
by Lars The Wanderer on Feb 3, 2009 2:28 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Adam Dunn will sell out his own principles and raise taxes when you’re not paying attention!
Proud adopted parent of future big league slugger Thomas Neal
by nostocksjustbonds on Feb 3, 2009 2:40 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
We’d probably be better off signing Adam Dunn instead and using the $30 million or whatever in savings to make Aaron Rowand go away.
by Evan on Feb 3, 2009 1:36 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Don’t forget (from above): Dunn does get inducted into the HoF in 2027. He’d be a good sign.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Feb 3, 2009 1:44 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Out of curiosity...
Do you recall his career stats? How many dingers did he finish with?
by The Double Deuce on Feb 3, 2009 4:20 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I have it on hand:
He hit a career line of .232/.361/.490 with 554 dingerz in 18 seasons. He hit under .200 in 3 of the last 4 seasons of his career.
He managed to squeeze out 77% of the vote in 2027, which was – I assume – the year that people stopped caring about BA as a stat.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Feb 3, 2009 6:46 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
the year they stopped caring about BA… and OBP and SLG and everything but home runs. O_o
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on Feb 3, 2009 8:19 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, those too.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Feb 3, 2009 8:35 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I would be perfectly fine with 2 years
I don’t really care about the amount, only the years. I am assuming that if the Giants sign him for 2 years and $50 million, they have concluded that amount works for them economically, so I wouldn’t balk at that unless it comes with a corresponding raising of ticket prices or an increase in the price of the Krazy Krab sandwich.
by FluLikeSymptoms on Feb 3, 2009 1:43 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
I gave it a "meh"
but that isn’t really a response to this situation. (You can’t really be “meh” to the prospect of one of the best hitters in our generation signing). I think it’s better represented with the following semi-realistic range going from best to worst-case scenarios:
1) Manny signs with the Mets, or whomever else outside our division. Who cares how much $ he gets.
2) Manny goes to Japan (ok, less than realistic, but he’d probably have a great time).
3) Manny signs with the Bums, for 4 years, a ton of cash, and a player option for the 5th.
4) Manny signs with the Giants for 1 year and a vesting option.
5) Manny signs with the Bums, for 1 year and vesting option.
10) Manny signs with the Giants for 4 years, a ton of cash, and a player option for the 5th.
by BigO on Feb 3, 2009 1:59 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Here's my contract proposal...
The base is 2 years at 40 million guaranteed. There is a playoff bonus for both years worth 5 million each (If the gigantes make the playoffs in 09’ he gets 25 mil, same for ’10).
There is a 3rd year ’11 option that automatically vests if he plays 130 or so games in ’10 (a la Vizquel).
4th year is a club option.
Having these extra years that are up to the giants make sense because if he is performing, keep him, plus it gives us trade options if we’re out of contention and someone wants to give us a prospect.
formerly April3rdLifeBegins
by YaSquare on Feb 3, 2009 2:04 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
I don’t think the Union lets teams do incentives based on winning the division/WS, etc.
Proud adopted parent of future big league slugger Thomas Neal
by nostocksjustbonds on Feb 3, 2009 2:41 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I sure as hell can’t see an agent going for that.
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realized God doesn’t work that way, so I stole one and prayed for forgiveness. - Emo Philips
Neglectful father of David Quinowski
by marcello on Feb 3, 2009 2:43 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
well, if you’re representing Steve Holm, you might do it. Manny…not so much.
But I think the CBA doesn’t allow it. I don’t think any sports allow that in their CBA.
Proud adopted parent of future big league slugger Thomas Neal
by nostocksjustbonds on Feb 3, 2009 9:31 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
As an aside
Has anyone else noticed that the “roster” on the left-hand side of the main page has 56 members?
Never has a poster been more correct in the history of the internet. Ever! - ResDog on yours truly
by jcb9 on Feb 3, 2009 2:17 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Sign Manny
move gamer to first, have ex-gamer J.T. teach him how to play there. And move Winn or Lewis to CF.
by Hobbes2d on Feb 3, 2009 2:21 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
alright!
it’s been a while since we had a “J.T. Snow can teach ______ to be a good first baseman” around here
by FluLikeSymptoms on Feb 3, 2009 2:30 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
JT Can just put the dreadlocks wig on and everyone will think that Manny is at 1b.
Proud adopted parent of future big league slugger Thomas Neal
by nostocksjustbonds on Feb 3, 2009 2:42 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
well, I’d let Manny do the hitting and when he’s done, he goes into the clubhouse and JT emerges to play defense. It’s foolproof!
Proud adopted parent of future big league slugger Thomas Neal
by nostocksjustbonds on Feb 3, 2009 9:32 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
But now we have The Thrill, too!
Will Clark and JT together could teach ANYONE to play first.
Even Nate Schierholtz.
by The Double Deuce on Feb 3, 2009 4:23 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
maybe we can hire Barry Bonds and he can teach Travis Ishikawa to hit (by the way, that is no more ridiculous than you clowns thinking J.T. Snow can magically turn somebody into a first baseman)
by FluLikeSymptoms on Feb 3, 2009 4:34 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
BLB did help with Frandsen’s mechanics toward the end of 2007 and all of a sudden he started hitting dingerz
Sergio Romo will gladly hand you a bench to sit on / GIANTSPACE™ / Adopted brother of the AnVil
by SoFa King Mike on Feb 3, 2009 11:14 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Which was weird. I can not think of two more mechanically dissimilar hitters than those two.
I'm spent, just can't rosterbate anymore.
by oldjacket on Feb 4, 2009 8:13 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
but Bonds knows hitting, inside and out. He’d be a great hitting instructor.
Proud adopted parent of future big league slugger Thomas Neal
by nostocksjustbonds on Feb 4, 2009 10:02 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
If he knows hitting “inside and out”, then why was he such a dead pull hitter.
Wow, I’m so clever sometimes!
My adopted Giant: "Raptor Jesus" Guzman
by Goofus on Feb 4, 2009 10:39 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Let us know when one of those times comes around, won’t you?
Adoptive father to the All-Father. Does that make me the All-Grandfather?
by EliminateMe on Feb 4, 2009 11:04 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
golf clap
My adopted Giant: "Raptor Jesus" Guzman
by Goofus on Feb 4, 2009 12:01 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
The hardest part of teaching Rowand to play 1B is the plays where he would be the cutoff man. I’m pretty sure Rowand has no idea what a cutoff man is.
My adopted Giant: "Raptor Jesus" Guzman
by Goofus on Feb 3, 2009 3:02 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
thought you meant the cutoff man when he made a throw to the plate from his new position.
by BigO on Feb 3, 2009 3:05 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Think of the kids
A 3-6-1 would turn into a 3-7-5.
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realized God doesn’t work that way, so I stole one and prayed for forgiveness. - Emo Philips
Neglectful father of David Quinowski
by marcello on Feb 3, 2009 3:14 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
“Thaaaaaat’s that asshole who stops serving me after I ram my face into the bar twenty times. Uh… right? I’m not drrrunk…. I’m a – hic – I’m a gaaaaamerrr…”
by satyricrash on Feb 3, 2009 7:20 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Gamer would crash into the infield wall/dugout railings every inning until being permanently injured.
by out machine on Feb 3, 2009 3:15 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm in the middle
Well Manny has a few places other than the Giants, and none of them matter except the Dodgers.
Dodgers – I can see them offering 2 years and 50 million, that would be bigger than their original contract and would save face for Boras and Manny. This would suck for the Giants as it would make it more competitive in the West.
What if he signs with us? Well I’m in the boat of floating F-Lew and Winn in the trade markets. See what other teams are offering and pull the trigger on trading an OF for an IF. I think the best case scenario for us would be trading involving Winn and Beltre. You shore up left IF defense and get a little more pop. If not that then maybe a trade for Swisher to help the IF.
My point is that if the idea is to just sign Manny and that is all, then don’t do it. If the idea is to sign manny and move Winn/Lewis/Schierholtz/filler prospects for the ilk of Beltre/Swisher then do it.
by Giant Voodoo on Feb 3, 2009 2:23 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Absotutely.
Are we so certain we wouldn’t just be in the same Carnival cruise ship boat that we were with Bonds? RAR!mirez would need support.
This just in...Bobby Estalella can apply oral suction to a deceased pack animal's penile extremity.
by victor frankenstein on Feb 4, 2009 7:34 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
yeah exactly, not only in the glut of OFs but also in the lineup.
by Giant Voodoo on Feb 4, 2009 11:02 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Here's the solution...
You trade Rowand or Winn to Yankees for Nady or Swisher. They need a CF. Salaries are about equal. Install Nady or Swisher at 1B. Move the remaining of Winn or Rowand to CF. Sign Manny. Sign Crede. Trade Molina for whatever and move Sandoval to C.
It’s so easy and you don’t even have to trade Cain. Why hasn’t someone thought of this before?
Why isn't Sabean held accountable for leading the Giants into many years of mediocrity???
by oldrips on Feb 3, 2009 2:58 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
\post drips with sarcasm
Why isn't Sabean held accountable for leading the Giants into many years of mediocrity???
by oldrips on Feb 3, 2009 2:59 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Why wouldn’t we trade Cain?!?! He never wins.
Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes.
by WilliamVanLandingham on Feb 3, 2009 3:13 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
GRRR
THE ENTIRE XM RADIO CREW CAN FEAST ON BUTT PEE!!
by Lars The Wanderer on Feb 3, 2009 3:22 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
BEAT L A
BEAT L A
Hasheem "The Dream" Thabeet or Brandon Jennings. A Warrior in 09.
With the 6th Pick in the 2009 MLB Draft, the SF Giants pick Donovan Tate.
Andre Smith in Silver & Black in 2009.
by ejdacanay on Feb 3, 2009 4:14 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Meh
for that baggage, Barry will play for free, and he’ll spend enough time on the bench to give the kids 250 PA’s. For $25 million, we could add Ben Sheets, Adam Dunn, Orlando Hudson, and a free Barry Bonds on top.
Brian Sabean figures that if he buys enough bottles, one of them is bound to have lightning in it.
by jasomack on Feb 3, 2009 4:44 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Looks Like Clearly A Better Choice Then Manny To Me
by giantsrainman on Feb 3, 2009 5:57 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
It's M-Dog going after a ball hit to his side of the LCF gap
Fred Lewis can stand under my umbrella.
31 May 2007, 21:38 EST - the last time Matteh's career W-L wasn't below.500
We are at war with Los Angeles. We have always been at war with Los Angeles.
by S.F. Giangst on Feb 4, 2009 4:56 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Well, He Is Then At Least Leaning In The Right Direction.
But I don’t see how he can track it very well looking at the leftfield line.
by giantsrainman on Feb 4, 2009 2:11 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
What part of Manny Ramirez can actually be understood?
Fred Lewis can stand under my umbrella.
31 May 2007, 21:38 EST - the last time Matteh's career W-L wasn't below.500
We are at war with Los Angeles. We have always been at war with Los Angeles.
by S.F. Giangst on Feb 4, 2009 7:36 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Wilriv
Puerto Rico. 2 games – 2 losses. Not playing good baseball.
by Lars The Wanderer on Feb 3, 2009 5:06 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Chancletas!
Losses of 3-2 and 2-1. The pitching has been much better than expected. Now where are the sticks?
by wilriv21 on Feb 3, 2009 5:23 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I think if they were pitching even better, though, they would have won those games. The pitchers really need to bear down and do more.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Feb 3, 2009 6:48 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs