Cain and the Unit

Baggs report on how Matty is learning from the Big Guy.
Dunno about you guys, but this strikes me as an excellent development. In fact, I was going to call the post "why didn't I think of that", but I figured it might be a bit obscure.

I don't know if there are any statistical analyses out there about it, but it's seemed to me in the last couple of years that a lot of the damage against Cain comes as a result of his lack of the "out" pitch. Sure, he can break off a curve, and his slider may occasionally do the trick, but mostly the dude lives and dies with the fastball. Now, it's a healthy fastball, yes, and he should trust it like a blood brother. But, guys tend to keep fouling that bugger off until he eventually misses location with it, or misses the plate entirely with something else. What a boon it would be to have a pitch that looks like some fat cheese, only to tumble out of the zone at the last second. Easier said than done, of course, but I shoooore do like the idea.

p.s. I looked briefly here and on xanthan's site to find an overall pitch analysis for Cain, so that I could base some of my rant on reality, but to no avail. Didn't somebody systematically pick apart his repertoire at some point?

about 1 year ago BigO 27 comments 0 recs |

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I like this. Randy can teach Cain how to get WINZ. Though I have always felt that Cain was a good sport and teammate even when he doesn’t receive any run support.

Giant Dirtbags: Brian Anderson, Todd Jennings, Steve Hammond, John Bowker
Don't F with the Affeldt

by Giant among Angels on Feb 27, 2009 8:46 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

run lessdingerz.exe

Fred Lewis can stand under my umbrella.
31 May 2007, 21:38 EST - the last time Matteh's career W-L wasn't below.500
We are at war with Los Angeles. We have always been at war with Los Angeles.

by S.F. Giangst on Feb 27, 2009 9:00 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

winner.dat is missing

by Giant Voodoo on Feb 27, 2009 9:37 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

effectivebullpen.dll not installed

Fred Lewis can stand under my umbrella.
31 May 2007, 21:38 EST - the last time Matteh's career W-L wasn't below.500
We are at war with Los Angeles. We have always been at war with Los Angeles.

by S.F. Giangst on Feb 27, 2009 10:46 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Randy gave Matt winz.docx

Unfortunately, Matt’s still running Microsoft Office 2003 and can’t open the file.

by deuce deuce on Feb 28, 2009 1:28 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Needs more converter programs!

Giant Dirtbags: Brian Anderson, Todd Jennings, Steve Hammond, John Bowker
Don't F with the Affeldt

by Giant among Angels on Feb 28, 2009 8:54 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Nice mentoring. I’d like to see Bumgarner getting some time to pick RJ’s brain.

Subpoena Hank Aaron: Drag his butt before congress and let him state, under penalty of perjury, that he never took amphetamines.

by Sabertooth on Feb 27, 2009 9:03 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Cain's Pitching Mechanics

Watching Matt these last couple of years I noticed that he misses the catchers target a lot and often by a wide margin. This can’t be good.

No doubt all Giants fans want to Matt become the dominating, winning pitcher we all think this stuff warrants.

I am no pitching coach but one thing I noticed is that Matt usually takes his grip on the baseball after he begins his windup while his eyes are focused not on the baseball but toward home plate. A tiny fraction of an inch could make the difference between good location and bad, or a curve that breaks properly or hangs. Because he throws multiple ptiches requiring different finger positions on the baseball, wouldn’t it make sense to get the proper grip before you start your windup?

I mentioned this once before on another forum and got no response. Maybe it is nothing but then again it might make a significant difference. I would like to heard the opinion of some McC members that have knowledge of pitching mechanics.

Has Bay City Ball ever done an analysis of Matt’s pitch location?

Radical Racing

by Radical Racing on Feb 28, 2009 5:09 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

Watching Matt these last couple of years I noticed that he misses the catchers target a lot and often by a wide margin. This can’t be good.

If that were true, he wouldn’t be as good as he is, no?

No doubt all Giants fans want to Matt become the dominating, winning pitcher we all think this stuff warrants.

But he is the dominating, winning pitcher that we all think his stuff warrants. We all think he can still improve, but he’s not a disappointment. It’s not his fault that the team hasn’t helped him get the wins that his winning performances warrant.

As for the grip, I wish I could say more, especially after my first two comments. I want you to see that I am taking you seriously and did read the comment. I just don’t know much about that stuff. I think anytime anybody wants to discuss the mechanics of a guy that it’s worthwhile and I can see where you might be onto something about how a chronic slip in the grip could be keeping him a level below where he should be.

Although I’m trying to think and I can’t think of any pitcher I’ve ever seen who actually looks at the baseball when he’s gripping it. It doesn’t seem like it would help to me, except insofar as you want everybody else on the field to be looking at your grip with you. It seems to me that part of the benefit of having seams on the baseball as a pitcher is that you can feel when you have the right grip because you’ve done it so much that you know where the seams should be on your fingers by touch.

I’m inclined to think it’s not a big deal because, 1) I haven’t noticed the control issues that you cite – although he sometimes lets the fastball get loose and it does miss up in the zone more than it should, and 2) I don’t think that what you describe is irregular for pitchers.

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on Feb 28, 2009 9:27 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

But he is the dominating, winning pitcher that we all think his stuff warrants. We all think he can still improve, but he’s not a disappointment. It’s not his fault that the team hasn’t helped him get the wins that his winning performances warrant.

Yeah, if possible I’d like to forget the stuff about being a “winning pitcher”. We all know that he doesn’t have much control over that. And there’s no question he’s had a nice start to his big league career. I’m mainly interested in puzzling over what it might take to take a “next step” in dominating batters, and increasing his efficiency on the mound. To be honest, it’s mainly all the foul balls that usually get me thinking…so please throw some stats at me to disabuse me of the notion entirely.

by BigO on Feb 28, 2009 10:06 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I’m a little confused. We seem to agree for the most part. He’s been very good already, but he can obviously still pitch at another level. He does get overlong in counts and he does lose the fastball up more than he should. I don’t really know what he has to do on a technical level to fix that, but I’m not trying to convince anybody that anything else is going on here. I don’t have stats to say the he doesn’t have a next step to take or that he doesn’t have visible holes in his game, because I believe that he does on both counts.

I do think both of those get overstated quite a bit because there’s no reason to be displeased with him for being the very good pitcher that he has become, but strictly in terms of looking at how he can be better – yeah, there are clear things that he could improve.

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on Feb 28, 2009 10:17 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

sorry, hts, I was in hurry writing my response, and can see how it may have been confusing. When I was calling for stats, that wasn’t directed at you in particular. Essentially, I just want someone to tell me that “Matt Cain does not get more foul balls hit off him in 2-strike counts than most pitchers”, so that I can let go of my impression that the “out” pitch is what he’s missing. Until then, I will just have to pray that The Unit will work hastily with his new apprentice.

by BigO on Feb 28, 2009 8:31 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

http://www.statcorner.com/leader.php?type=6&year=2008&leag=MLB&limit=300

This year, 20.7% of Cain’s pitches turned into foul balls, the 7th highest out of over 120 qualifying pitchers. Last year he was 4th. The year before he was 8th. He definitely gets more foul balls than most pitchers. Of course, foul balls are actually good most of the time, when there aren’t two strikes already, but Cain would definitely benefit from turning some of those FB’s into swings and misses with two strikes.

..so allow me to present Tim Lincecum and Matt Cain as two sweet, sweet bottles of warming hooch.

by Cookyman on Mar 1, 2009 10:30 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

thanks for the numbers. I don’t know if this means I’m right, but at least I’m probably not crazy.

by BigO on Mar 1, 2009 2:48 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

My hope for Matt Cain has always been that he pushes his walk rate below 3 per 9 innings. That could make him elite. But he’s already a frontline starter. I’d be thrilled if he pitched this way the rest of his career frankly.

by Dan from NM on Feb 28, 2009 10:15 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

+1

No pitcher worth their salt looks at the ball when he grips it. They have where they normally set up (2 seam grip or 4 seam grip 99% of the time) and then they move when they pitch, even if the pitch called is what their set up is (i.e. 4 seamer FB called and that is your grip, you still move your hand otherwise you tip your pitch). In short, no, him setting up beforehand wont do anything as howtheyscored indicated.

I have not seen Cain miss a ton with his pitches, or miss an abnormal amount. So again i am in agreement with ya.

Matt Cain IS dominating. He needs to make minor tweaks, yes, but he’s still very young and a huge talent already. The fact that he is this good and even has a chance to improve is awesome.

It is hard to judge a pitcher by pitch location without also taking movement into the picture. Guys like Maddux could never throw a high cheddar like Cain can. What I’m hoping RJ does is teach Cain how he made his transition from power to control of the count and deceit.

by Giant Voodoo on Mar 1, 2009 2:50 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Has Bay City Ball ever done an analysis of Matt’s pitch location?

I think you need to get on that….STAT!

The Basil Fawlty Moderating Strategy:
"We could run a nice blog here if we didn't have all these members getting in the way."

by WalrusMan on Feb 28, 2009 7:22 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Note: I made another funny! HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!

The Basil Fawlty Moderating Strategy:
"We could run a nice blog here if we didn't have all these members getting in the way."

by WalrusMan on Feb 28, 2009 7:23 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

…..one two, one two one two……

The Basil Fawlty Moderating Strategy:
"We could run a nice blog here if we didn't have all these members getting in the way."

by WalrusMan on Feb 28, 2009 7:23 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Whoa there buddy

don’t wanna shake the house down, right?

Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all

If Dustin Pedroia played in Seattle, not many people would be talking about him.

by baetown415 on Mar 1, 2009 1:50 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

COWABUNGA!!!!

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on Mar 1, 2009 11:09 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

the observation is interesting, but I really have my doubts that there is anything to worry about there. If it was something as simple as this, I expect Righetti or someone else would have changed it by now.

by BigO on Feb 28, 2009 8:34 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

The lack of an out pitch has really cost him in his close games. He can’t get the out that keeps the game within reach… If Randy Johnson can teach him that, I see no reason why Cain cannot win 20 games like Johnson. Hopefully he takes heed and starts being a team player!

by MonkeyChow on Mar 1, 2009 10:03 AM PST reply actions 0 recs