McCovey Chronicles Community Prospect List #8
by marcello on Dec 8, 2009 12:03 PM PST
75 comments
Please do not rec these, we don't want to have them cluttering up the recommended fanposts. Thanks
Brandon Crawford pulled away late to take the win. Here is our list so far:
- Buster Posey
- Madison Bumgarner
- Thomas Neal
- Zack Wheeler
- Roger Kieschnick
- Tommy Joseph
- Brandon Crawford
For #8, we have the following options:
Each player should have a link to Baseball Cube in their first name and a link to First Inning in their last name if they are available. The poll will close Thursday at noon, unless it's clear enough to call, then it will be Wednesday around noon.
This FanPost is reader-generated, and it does not necessarily reflect the views of McCovey Chronicles. If the author uses filler to achieve the minimum word requirement, a moderator may edit the FanPost for his or her own amusement.
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PLEASE REPLY TO THIS COMMENT WITH PEOPLE YOU THINK SHOULD BE ADDED TO THE NEXT POLL
If a name is already suggested, please rec the comment to add your vote for that player.
Juan Carlos Perez, please start hitting.
I think we can go a couple more polls without adding anyone
#1 threat to America: Pandas
Also, Tim Lincecum
Adopted Father: Tyler Graham
Official McPokeMaster
Registered Velezbian and supporter of Fredemption
by GrahamCrakalaka on Dec 8, 2009 3:49 PM PST up reply actions
Well if you forgot someone, so did everyone else.
#1 threat to America: Pandas
Also, Tim Lincecum
Adopted Father: Tyler Graham
Official McPokeMaster
Registered Velezbian and supporter of Fredemption
by GrahamCrakalaka on Dec 8, 2009 4:58 PM PST up reply actions
+1
The next Dave Winfield!
These pretzels are making me thirsty
by NuschlerFace on Dec 8, 2009 12:08 PM PST up reply actions
I voted for him the last time, so him again it is.
#1 threat to America: Pandas
Also, Tim Lincecum
Adopted Father: Tyler Graham
Official McPokeMaster
Registered Velezbian and supporter of Fredemption
by GrahamCrakalaka on Dec 8, 2009 3:49 PM PST up reply actions
Anti-Bias-Accusation Bias!
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Dec 8, 2009 12:19 PM PST up reply actions
Stop The Anti Super Toolsy Awesome Debut Bias - Vote For Rodriguez!
Still the loving, adoptive father of Hector Sanchez. And who doesn't love switch-hitting catchers with power and patience?
I voted for RafRod last time and I voted for him again. Maybe Adrianza or Noonan next vote
Giant Dirtbags: John Bowker, Steve Hammond. MIA List: Todd Jennings, Brian Anderson
Jeremy Affeldt induces DP's
by Giant among Angels on Dec 8, 2009 12:28 PM PST reply actions
Actually I will definitely go with Adrianza
Giant Dirtbags: John Bowker, Steve Hammond. MIA List: Todd Jennings, Brian Anderson
Jeremy Affeldt induces DP's
by Giant among Angels on Dec 8, 2009 12:31 PM PST up reply actions
Who do the scouts love more?
Ehire or Nick? One plays a more premium position and the other is a level up and 4 only months older.
co-dad w/AfDC of
Ishikawa, the Topps Rookie All Star Team's First baseman. Does he get a chance in 2010?
I voted RafRod the last time and will vote for him again. I would have voted for Crawford here. I think I’ll go with Runzler next, not because he’s second in the voting (as of this time), but because I’m just not sold on Adrianza. At all.
Joe Martinez: You are cool.
When it's all said and done, America will be remembered for three things: The Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
Me too, this is the spot where i was going to select Crawford.
Giant Dirtbags: John Bowker, Steve Hammond. MIA List: Todd Jennings, Brian Anderson
Jeremy Affeldt induces DP's
by Giant among Angels on Dec 8, 2009 7:09 PM PST up reply actions
I voted RafRod last time (even though I wanted Crawford to win) b/c I didn’t want Runzler to win. RafRod will now go where he belongs.
say hey nation is the Ralph Nader of McC.-Xanthan
Hey Ralph
Vote for who you want to win, not who won’t lose.
co-dad w/AfDC of
Ishikawa, the Topps Rookie All Star Team's First baseman. Does he get a chance in 2010?
I was split between Crawford and RafRod so I didn’t mind.
say hey nation is the Ralph Nader of McC.-Xanthan
by say hey nation on Dec 8, 2009 1:26 PM PST up reply actions
When the Giants trade Wilson for Kouzmanoff at the deadline and Runzler does just as well the rest of the year, I will have the last laugh.
STEVE HOLM! refuses to be the odd man out.
Wouldn’t Runzler be like third in line for the closer spot, behind Affeldt and Romo?
Juan Carlos Perez, please start hitting.
NO BECAUSE HE WOULD BE KICKING ASS
STEVE HOLM! refuses to be the odd man out.
by UnleashTheGore on Dec 8, 2009 1:23 PM PST up reply actions
RAFROD
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
Mr. F! | comics | art | New Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory
I always think of him as a fat ass.
say hey nation is the Ralph Nader of McC.-Xanthan
by say hey nation on Dec 8, 2009 1:05 PM PST up reply actions
Inconceivable!
A stat guy voting for a player who doesn’t walk? Well, I never!
Juan Carlos Perez, please start hitting.
You have to respect the scouts to some degree, but Peguero … no walks AND no power while repeating low A at age 21? That’s just terrible.
Yeep!
Joe Martinez: You are cool.
When it's all said and done, America will be remembered for three things: The Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
I’d like to thank the Community Prospect list for being a respite in the face of incessant rosterbation.
by AndYourBirdCanSing on Dec 8, 2009 1:07 PM PST reply actions
Not if you understand the volatility and replaceability of bullpen arms.
Juan Carlos Perez, please start hitting.
I’m not so sure a seventeen year old OF prospect is really a reliable option. He did well in the rookie league, especially for his age, but he’s got a ways to go before he’s legitimate.
Just to expand
I did a quick check. I grabbed the top 42 relievers, by FIP, from 2008 and 2009 (42 basically boiled down to a 3.50 FIP or lower). Only 12 guys were on both lists. There’s only a few guys on there who’ve actually been that good for 3+ years: Nathan, Papelbon, Rivera, Broxton.
Juan Carlos Perez, please start hitting.
So what you're saying is
Consistently good relievers are in short supply, so when we find a guy who has good stuff and performs well, we should consider him a valuable prospect? Wait, that’s probably not what you’re saying.
I like Runzler more than a lot of the younger guys because I value players who have performed well at higher levels. High-ceiling guys who haven’t done a lot don’t impress me (RafRod, Joseph, Wheeler, Crawford, and Kieschnick all fall in that category), and Runzler has done well in the high minors and in the majors, though he is plagued by some pretty severe SSS problems. I like his stuff, I like his results, and I like his development.
That, combined with the fact that closers can and do make upwards of $10M as free agents and through arbitration (the meh ones make that too, it’s not just Rivera/Papelbon/Broxton/Nathan), which means Runzler’s $400,000 salary saves a lot of money, makes him a more valuable prospect to me.
I also think that bullpen arms are very undervalued. The Giants, Rockies, and Dodgers got as far as they did last year because of their good starting staffs but also because of their solid bullpens. Finding reliable relievers is almost as important as finding reliable starters, and probably a lot harder; it’s easier to judge a guy with 200 IP versus 80 IP. That’s largely my opinion, I suppose, but it makes sense to me.
I think his point is more
only the elitest of elite bullpen arms are consistently impact players comparable to position players/starting pitchers and that Runzler isn’t likely to be one.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
closers can and do make upwards of $10M as free agents and through arbitration (the meh ones make that too, it’s not just Rivera/Papelbon/Broxton/Nathan),
I also think that bullpen arms are very undervalued.
This do not agree with each other.
And I do agree that finding reliable relievers is important. It’s also pretty easy, which is why relievers who don’t get saves are usually pretty good bargains. Recent examples: Affeldt, Bell, Aardsma, Betancourt.
If you think Runzler is the next Rivera or Nathan, well then fine. But history has shown most are not that good and knowing who they are early in the career isn’t very likely.
Not sure what to do about my screen name at this point...
by AngelWillSaveUs on Dec 8, 2009 4:19 PM PST up reply actions
Closers are overvalued, middle and long relievers are undervalued, IMO purely because of stats, just like RBI guys are overvalued when RBIs mean nothing (similar to saves).
And finding reliable relievers isn’t easy; the Giants basically let Aardsma go, and now he’s become a good closer for Seattle (although there’s only one season to point to). Affeldt is good, but if he had consistently posted the numbers he did last year he’d be making a lot more than $4M next year. Betancourt’s set to make a lot (possibly $7M+) in arbitration this year because he is a reliable reliever, and that’s a valuable asset. Heath Bell’s had one great season, just like Aardsma; let’s see how he does in the future before we deem him a reliable reliever.
Bullpens typically have huge turnover rates; middle and long relievers don’t stay with clubs too long. And marcello’s point that the only four guys who have had FIPs of 3.50 or below for three straight years would seem to indicate that finding a consistent reliever is not easy. I don’t think Runzler will be the next Rivera or Broxton or Papelbon or Nathan, but I think he will be a solid middle reliever for a while, and I think that people undervalue that – admittedly, a solid middle reliever isn’t as valuable as a closer or a middle of the order hitter, but I get the impression that people attach little to no value to bullpen arms purely because they are bullpen arms.
The point of pointing out only 4 relievers is that there aren’t ANY reliable relievers over a period of 3 years. They are the exceptions, and you only know they are after the fact.
You keep talking about our bullpen last year, but it was assembled easily and cheaply. Medders, Howry, Affeldt, and Miller were all brought in on cheap deals. Were some of them lucky last year? Hell yes, but that’s another reason why relievers are so untrustworthy, their performance is way too influenced by luck.
Juan Carlos Perez, please start hitting.
Also SSS
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
GET THAT VORP AND WHIP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!
I know that was the point you intended, but that doesn’t mean that’s the only point. What I said is just as valid. And the fact that you don’t know until after the fact who was good and who wasn’t only encourages the idea that Runzler may have more worth than we think right now (and of course the opposite, that he’s not as good as we think he is).
I didn’t talk about our bullpen much, but Miller, Howry, Medders, and Affeldt all pitched over their heads. And that’s a big problem with relievers, yes, unless you find a guy who can provide some consistency (which I think Runzler can do). Relievers are generally a crapshoot, so a guy like Runzler, who seems to me to be a solid relief arm, is valuable given the paucity of other options.
And I think the idea that middle relievers are undervalued can’t be brought up enough. Plenty of teams fail because they didn’t think about the sixth, seventh, and eighth innings; the period between their ace starter and shutdown closer. Look at the 2008 Mets (okay, they had closer problems too) if you need an example of a team that was generally good to great, but ended up failing because of a weak bullpen. I really think that RPs are unfairly devalued because there are so many of them, and the best ones get converted into closers, which is a lot like taking the best offensive first basemen, making them all left fielders, then saying that first basemen are generally bad offensively. Well, yeah, but only because the best talent is forced into another position.
And that’s a big problem with relievers, yes, unless you find a guy who can provide some consistency (which I think Runzler can do).
I have trouble believing a guy with Runzler’s walk rate can be counted on for consistency.
I really think that RPs are unfairly devalued because there are so many of them, and the best ones get converted into closers, which is a lot like taking the best offensive first basemen, making them all left fielders, then saying that first basemen are generally bad offensively. Well, yeah, but only because the best talent is forced into another position.
What? No. They’re devalued because there are so many of them and they are completely unreliable.
Juan Carlos Perez, please start hitting.
Yeah they let Aardsma go and he was good this past season. In the intervening handful of seasons he was nothing special at all. Thank you for providing a wonderful example of the volatility of bullpen performances.
Joe Martinez: You are cool.
When it's all said and done, America will be remembered for three things: The Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
I value players who have performed well at higher levels
He hasn’t really performed well at higher levels though. Firstly he’s pitched a total of 20 innings which is such a small sample size that it’s pretty useless (check out the first 20 innings by Sadowski for example) And secondly in the upper levels he had a FIP of around 4.25 which isn’t very good at all for a reliever.
Proud parent of Waldis Joaquin!
Interesting that everybody on that list were used as starters in the minors. In fact, Broxton was used the least as a starter and he started 50 of his 87 minor league appearances.
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
A few of the guys on the 2 year list, as well:
Matt Thornton
Ryan Madson
Darren Oliver
Frank Francisco
Chad Qualls
Juan Carlos Perez, please start hitting.
I’m sure this has been discussed ad naseum in other threads, but the list is not a list of minor leaguers most likely to play in the MLB. RafRod has been described by some as reminding them of Vlad Guerrero at his age. Now, there is a very limited chance he develops into Vlad, but just the fact that there is a chance is what makes RafRod more of a prospect than Runzler. This is also why high ceiling toolsy players are drafted ahead of low ceiling bullpen arms every year. RafRod is definitely not the more “reliable” player, but he is much more of a prospect.
Not sure what to do about my screen name at this point...
by AngelWillSaveUs on Dec 8, 2009 3:59 PM PST up reply actions
Voting RafRod for the fourth straight time.
Kieshnick, Joseph, and Crawford. I wouldn’t put them above him but oh well.
Lethargy
It has me
RafRod
Noonan next
#1 threat to America: Pandas
Also, Tim Lincecum
Adopted Father: Tyler Graham
Official McPokeMaster
Registered Velezbian and supporter of Fredemption
RafRod
most upside of the remaining prospects. easy call.
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Dec 8, 2009 4:08 PM PST reply actions
Runzler next
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Dec 8, 2009 4:09 PM PST up reply actions
I guess my opinion boils down to:
Runzler’s lower-upside major-league success (albeit SSS) > Raf Rod’s upside, which is all he really has at this point.
STEVE HOLM! refuses to be the odd man out.
Runzler’s lower-upside major-league success
This is the thing that bothers me most about the Runzler bubble. What major-league success? He posted a FIP of 4.14 in the majors, and was almost certainly lucky to do so.
All up and down the minors this year, he walked batters like crazy. He’s got a great arm, but he’s not ready yet. He’s closer than RafRod, but they’re both projects.
Yeah, that’s what i don’t understand either. Even if you ignore the question about relievers having less value, he’s still only a prospect with 20 innings above A-ball, still has obvious control issues and didn’t perform even perform well (aside from the low ERA) above A-ball either.
Proud parent of Waldis Joaquin!
I totally missed that this had been opened. D’oh!
Rodriguez is the easy pick for me.
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
However
I don’t think the anti-Runzler forces will be able to hold out any longer after this vote. I’ll vote for Noonan next, though.
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
voted rafrod...again
pretty confident he’ll go here, runzler’s probably next, and then one of adrianza or noonan. also, dedicated pill voters are dedicated
also, just wondering
1. Does anyone what number we’re going to for the list?
2. What range would you put clayton tanner in? 10-15? 15-20? 20-25?
Adopted Giant: Henry Sosa
Noonan. I still have to think that he is more likely to produce value than RafRod. Probably going with RafRod and Gillaspie over my next two picks—-not yet sure which will be which.
Merkin Valdez? Manuel Mateo? A rose by any other name...
RafRod. Then Gillaspie/Noonan/Adrianza in one order or another.
Matt Downs . The Kevin Frandsen of 2010 !
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