McCovey Chronicles Community Prospect List #5
by marcello on Dec 3, 2009 11:03 AM PST
370 comments
Please do not rec these, we don't want to have them cluttering up the recommended fanposts. Thanks
And our fourth slam dunk, not terribly surprising. Now, it should get interesting. Here is our list so far:
- Buster Posey
- Madison Bumgarner
- Thomas Neal
- Zack Wheeler
For #5, we have the following options:
Tommy Joseph
Each player should have a link to Baseball Cube in their first name and a link to First Inning in their last name. Joseph doesn't because he has no college or professional experience. The poll will close Saturday at noon, unless it's another beat down, then it will be Friday around noon.
Angel Villalona situation: I think the best course of action, which seems to have a good amount of support, is say hey nation's idea. If you disagree with this proposal, make your case in the comments.
This FanPost is reader-generated, and it does not necessarily reflect the views of McCovey Chronicles. If the author uses filler to achieve the minimum word requirement, a moderator may edit the FanPost for his or her own amusement.
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PLEASE REPLY TO THIS COMMENT WITH PEOPLE YOU THINK SHOULD BE ADDED TO THE NEXT POLL
If a name is already suggested, please rec the comment to add your vote for that player.
Juan Carlos Perez, please start hitting.
Stoffel
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Dec 3, 2009 1:28 PM PST up reply actions 4 recs
Agreed on Stoffel. I put out Waldis, just in case people want the top relief arms together.
Juan Carlos Perez, please start hitting.
this
Supporting San Francisco Dugout since 2005 and Manny Burriss since 2006. Bringing you all your California League and New York-Penn League needs since 2009.
by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Dec 3, 2009 4:00 PM PST up reply actions
Definitely Stoffel
Officially disinterested in any high school outfielders from the state of Mississippi.
Waldis
Juan Carlos Perez, please start hitting.
by marcello on Dec 3, 2009 1:29 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I don’t really like him, but I can see some wanting Gillespie around here. Personally I think Casilla’s a better prospect than Stoeffel or Joaquin so I wouldn’t want them added without him.
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
Forgot about Casilla, thanks for the reminder. I’ll probably throw Casilla, Stoffel, and Waldis on at about the same time…in a few more polls probably.
Juan Carlos Perez, please start hitting.
HECTOR SANCHEZ!!!
/parent bias
Still the loving, adoptive father of Hector Sanchez. And who doesn't love switch-hitting catchers with power and patience?
by tedfordfan on Dec 4, 2009 10:34 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
PLEASE REPLY TO THIS COMMENT WITH PEOPLE YOU THINK SHOULD BE REMOVED FROM THE NEXT POLL
If a name is already suggested, please rec the comment to add your vote for that player.
Juan Carlos Perez, please start hitting.
Adrianza and Peguero aren’t getting any votes, so they should probably be considered.
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
Adrianza should reappear around the 7-9 picks
Giant Dirtbags: John Bowker, Steve Hammond. MIA List: Todd Jennings, Brian Anderson
Jeremy Affeldt induces DP's
by Giant among Angels on Dec 3, 2009 12:45 PM PST up reply actions
I’m tempted to not take anyone off for now, unless there are some obvious people to add. If any of these guys are reasonable for the next ~5 spots, then they should probably stay on.
Juan Carlos Perez, please start hitting.
Agree. What if everyone who votes for the winner thinks that the guy with 0 votes from the previous thread is the next best prospect?
say hey nation is the Ralph Nader of McC.-Xanthan
by say hey nation on Dec 3, 2009 12:53 PM PST up reply actions
Well I voted for Adrianza, so I think he should stay, obviously. I was gonna go with Kieschnick but I’ve seen too many fringey OF prospects.
I’m actually a bit surprised that Crawford is getting votes and Adrianza isn’t.
I’m higher on Crawford because he’s further up in the system and actually hit the ball once or twice.
Joe Martinez: You are cool.
When it's all said and done, America will be remembered for three things: The Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
I don’t think that the fact that he’s closer to the majors is a good thing.
If you’ve got two guys with a .900 OPS, you want the one closer to the majors. But when you have two guys who can’t hit right now, you take the younger one. Who’s got a better chance of reworking his swing/approach/whatever – a 22 y-o in AA, or a 19 y-o in A ball?
I was promised lasagna.
I voted Crawford as well
It’s a tough choice. I like Runzler and Stoffel. In fact, I think Stoffel will do next year what Runzler did this year, moving up several rungs on the minor league ladder.
And Kieschnick has intriguing power but strikes out a ton. Tommy Joseph has as much as Roger K, maybe more, but he’s just out of high school; given a good year in 2010, I foresee him jumping pretty high on our lists. But I can’t put him here yet.
Adrianza is a good-fielding SS who at least doesn’t get the bat knocked out of his hands, and hopefully in a couple of years he’ll be in our Top 5.
I’m still a Nick Noonan fan, but I can’t justify him until #9 at best.
And if we’re going just on potential, RaRod is as high as anyone. But, all things considered, I had to go with Brandon Crawford, who is by no means a certainty.
I’m just happy we have actual prospects to choose among.
Officially disinterested in any high school outfielders from the state of Mississippi.
I think all of these guys are legitimate candidates for 6. I wouldn’t remove anybody.
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
This is where things start to get interesting. I’m expecting a lot of spirited debate! I’m not sure who I’m going to pick yet, but it’s between Kieschnick and Joseph.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
I was pretty torn too, but I went impulse voting and picked Crawford.
Juan Carlos Perez, please start hitting.
I had to go with Joseph over Kieschnick because of Roger’s K/BB ratios. For a college player in A ball that was a pretty big red flag. Probably enough to prevent me voting for him at 6, too.
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
I’m deciding. I used the rationale that Neal has played and performed well to vote him over Wheeler. So I should probably stick to that. However, I see Neal and Wheeler as roughly equal talent wise and I imagine (hitting wise) that as a prospect Joseph is far higher than Kieschnick. but where does he play?
What good is a bat if he can’t play on the field? So for the reason of he "HAZ NO POSTION" I will probably rank Kieschnick higher than Joseph.
This is what I was thinking the other day.
say hey nation is the Ralph Nader of McC.-Xanthan
I think Tommy Joseph may be the better prospect down the line, but until he’s played a full season in the minors, I’m going with Roger Kieschnick, of whom I’m fond. I think going either way is fair, though.
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
I’d like to hear arguments for why any of those other guys ranks above either Kieschnick or Joseph. I don’t see it with any of them.
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
For me, my vote was 100% based on Crawford’s defense at SS. I think that raises his floor considerably.
Juan Carlos Perez, please start hitting.
I hear this. I am currently leaning Crawford over Joseph in the next round.
Merkin Valdez? Manuel Mateo? A rose by any other name...
So who did you pick in this round?
Officially disinterested in any high school outfielders from the state of Mississippi.
Kiesch, though it was close. FYI, you can figure out who people voted for by clicking on their profile page.
Merkin Valdez? Manuel Mateo? A rose by any other name...
How do you factor in Adrianza and his defense?
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
Similarly, but he’s farther away and I get the feeling that Crawford’s defense is currently better.
Juan Carlos Perez, please start hitting.
So would you also rank him above Kieschnick, Joseph, and Rodriguez?
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
Probably not, but they’re all close enough in my mind to not make much of a difference in my personal #6-10.
Juan Carlos Perez, please start hitting.
I REALLY REALLY like defense. However, with the team I have watch recently I have begun to vastly overrate offense in a prospect.
say hey nation is the Ralph Nader of McC.-Xanthan
by say hey nation on Dec 3, 2009 11:18 AM PST up reply actions
I like Crawford over Kieschnick too. Kieschnick seems to have the same contact issues that Crawford has but he’s a corner outfielder.
We're all basically Pedro Feliz.
I kind of wish they’d kept Crawford at San Jose the whole season.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
This
It didn’t make a lot of sense to promote him. But, at least in my mind, they’re clearly pushing him to take over for Renteria in 2011.
Juan Carlos Perez, please start hitting.
I really got the impression at the time that Crawford’s promotion had as much to do with Bocock’s embarrassing himself at AA as it did with Crawford’s hot start at SJ. For whatever reason, the organization clearly still hasn’t separated itself from seeing Bocock as an asset, and he was really really struggling in Connecticut (he actually did decently well in SJ).
In that sense it was very similar to the move made two years earlier where they flip-flopped Bocock and Burriss between Augusta and SJ. In that case Burriss was just dying at SJ and they wanted to let him start over at Augusta. In actually probably hurt Bocock who moved up to SJ and struggled for the rest of the year. But at least it prevented Burriss from having a total trainwreck of a season and allowed him positive development.
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
I wonder if Sabean will ever give up on Bocock.
…and the fact that you could call his San Jose line doing “decently well” is a sad comment on Bocock.
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
Definitely, I feel like I might be downgrading Crawford too much for how he hit in Connecticut, but what would Kieschnick have done there if he’d been promoted too? Still, I think Kieschnick’s power still gives him the edge, but the comparison would be very interesting.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
IT WAZ DODD
/OGC
say hey nation is the Ralph Nader of McC.-Xanthan
by say hey nation on Dec 3, 2009 11:27 AM PST up reply actions
Yes, though I have to admit that I was excited at the time he was promoted.
Giant Dirtbags: John Bowker, Steve Hammond. MIA List: Todd Jennings, Brian Anderson
Jeremy Affeldt induces DP's
by Giant among Angels on Dec 3, 2009 12:27 PM PST up reply actions
Me too
In retrospect, there was definitely a whole lot of SSS going on there.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
Yeah
I had just seen him play and he was hitting the crap out of the ball. It’s almost as though deciding a player is Real based on seeing them play once is a bad idea.
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
I think I'm gonna play the dick card
I’m really worried about the strikeouts. The power is nice, but no one’s expecting him to be a slugger or anything. He seems to know how to walk, but he’s not exactly B.J. Upton either. He’ll need to keep an above average BA to be a good hitter, and I don’t see how he’ll do that when he’s striking out in over 30% of his at bats. If you regressed his BABIP from a crazy high .500 to a still above average .315, you’d get something like .255/.315./.490. Connecticut’s gonna be rough.
(…)
And I’m guessing that he’s not going to hit 30 HR’s this year, so that SLG could easily see a substantial decline. Point is – you wouldn’t promote guy to AA in his first pro season after a month of hitting .255/.315./.490 in A+.
http://www.mccoveychronicles.com/2009/5/6/867811/bumgarner-alderson-crawford-up#15389639
Really, you should always listen to me. It’s not like I ever said that Sandoval will OPS .770 or anything.
I was promised lasagna.
They both have that issue, but Crawford has struck out more and walked less. It’s not a big difference in either category, but it adds up to about a 1-point difference in K/BB ratio.
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
Huh!
I just noticed that Brandon Crawford and Roger Kieschnick are the EXACT same age. They were born on the same day of the same year.
(And yes, Crawford played at a higher level than Kieschnick for much of the year, so that is probably at least a part of the difference in their K/BB ratio – I didn’t think that defense through very well)
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
I WANT TO CHANGE MY VOTE TO CRAWFORD….LOCAL TIEZ
say hey nation is the Ralph Nader of McC.-Xanthan
by say hey nation on Dec 3, 2009 11:28 AM PST up reply actions
I’m with you. I voted for Crawford. His defense combined with my confidence that his bat will come around with dodd no longer in the picture leads to voting him here
Proud adoptive daddy for the Big Unit, who is currently teaching Madison Bumgarner the art of being intimidating.
by Speedforthewin on Dec 4, 2009 8:22 AM PST up reply actions
I think I was one of Kieschnick’s biggest fans last offseason, so I’m glad he had a nice season with the bat. Obviously there are warts, but past Wheeler, there are with all of our prospects.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
pastWheelerPosey, there are with all of our prospects.
say hey nation is the Ralph Nader of McC.-Xanthan
by say hey nation on Dec 3, 2009 11:11 AM PST up reply actions
haha, true
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
Agreed. Next year, I’d love to see him get his K rate down to about 15% and his walk rate above 10%. But on balance, I’m pretty happy with the year he had in San Jose, considering reasonable expectations.
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
I like it. If Joseph had, say, put up an OK-but-warty line at SK or Augusta last year, I’d probably vote for him, but as it is there isn’t enough info. Also, I voted for Kiesch last time, so I feel obliged to do it again.
Merkin Valdez? Manuel Mateo? A rose by any other name...
Kiesh
i don’t see this dude working out in the bigs though i loved Baron’s interview with him sounds like a great guy. His video shows a guy that’s pull happy and swings from his shoe tops … doesn’t show the kind of raw bat speed that translates to major league power … yet power is his only strength … power is Brandon Wood power … not real power.
His LD% is skewed by SJs scorer being LD happy … away his LD % is 11 which is abysmal. Bespeaks of poor hand eye coordination.
Patience is not good … despite power drew few walks … and his K rate is poor considering how few walks he drew.
yet power is his only strengt
I’ve only seen him play a couple of times, but when he was drafted he was described as a potential five-tool player. His defense and throwing arm are supposed to be quite good. He seems pretty quick for a 6’3" power guy as well.
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
i meant as a hitter
speed is only a strength imo if you’re michael bourne fast
i just don’t think see him hitting well enough to play CF let alone RF
So there are three guys in baseball who have speed as a strength? It doesn’t have to be league best to be a strength, just above average.
Juan Carlos Perez, please start hitting.
i meant as something that really matters compared to bat speed, eye/hand, and sense of strike zone. roger seems like a great guy, which is a strength too. his speed is a strenght in the sense that personality is.
Really? Randy Winn was an above average RF the past few years without putting up big numbers – if Kieschnick can add value through defense and baserunning (which he appears to have the tools for that to be a possibility) he could certainly be a major league RF. It’s hardly a lock, but none of the players at this point are.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
It seems like he has more power than Nate to me, but it’s definitely a good comp.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
I agree that Roger seems to have more power than Nate; but surely you don’t think Randy Winn was above average last year? Granted, he plays defense well, but….
Officially disinterested in any high school outfielders from the state of Mississippi.
Kiesch sounds like Nate Schierholtz to me.
You say that like it’s a bad thing.
Matt Downs . The Kevin Frandsen of 2010 !
exactly
We don’t know if it is or isn’t because noone knows how nate is going to turn out. If Roger ends up being Nate with more walks, I will be estatic.
Proud adoptive daddy for the Big Unit, who is currently teaching Madison Bumgarner the art of being intimidating.
by Speedforthewin on Dec 4, 2009 8:25 AM PST up reply actions
I’ve been making this comparison for a while now. Three things to consider:
1. Kieschnick’s performance at San Jose wasn’t any better or any worse than Schierholtz’s. He has more power but less batting average, and they have almost identically abysmal k/w rates.
2. Kieschnick is a year behind Schierholtz’s pace. (Nate was 21 at San Jose, Roger 22.)
3. At 25, Schierholtz is not yet a good major league player. He may get there, but you can’t exactly say he’s on track.
yeah. Both could go either way. It’s a good comp, and I hope both succeed.
Proud adoptive daddy for the Big Unit, who is currently teaching Madison Bumgarner the art of being intimidating.
by Speedforthewin on Dec 4, 2009 8:48 AM PST up reply actions
good point
but Winn is basically a CF playing right field and he shows a CF’s instincts for where the ball is going. i saw something that BP? did showing Kiesch as a plus RF until you factored in the SJ scorer’s LD happy tendencies … that pushed Kiesch to a touch below average …
Kiesch could have that instinct but I think the odds are better that Runzler will get better control, Joseph can play Catcher, and Rodriguez will hit for power
I’m sorry I can’t link it since I haven’t been able to find it.
Whether or not Joseph can play catcher is very much an open question.
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
I’m fairly certain that Joseph won’t do much catching in the majors for the Giants.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
That said
They’ll probably keep him at catcher as long as they can, if only to pump up his value a bit for possible trades.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
Does anyone know how tall Joseph is? I just did a google search but didn’t see anything.
We're all basically Pedro Feliz.
MLB says 6’1"
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
Isn’t Uggla “6 ft”
say hey nation is the Ralph Nader of McC.-Xanthan
by say hey nation on Dec 3, 2009 11:53 AM PST up reply actions
5’11"
say hey nation is the Ralph Nader of McC.-Xanthan
by say hey nation on Dec 3, 2009 11:54 AM PST up reply actions
At draft time, he was listed at 6’1", 210.
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
probly right
but i still think its more likely than roger developing a spider sense for fly balls
He doesn’t need to develop a “spider sense” for fly balls, he just has to be an above average defensive player. Whatever the line drive issues at SJ were last season, people seem to think he has the tools to be a good defensive player and he seems to have the speed to be a good baserunner.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
i probably wasn't clear
as a ml hitter i’d see roger as like a 220/250/370 kind of guy. he’d have to be a good SS to get playing time with a bat like that or the greatest glove ever
Well, in that case, I guess I understand why you don’t like him. That seems fairly harsh to me though. Are you just going off his MLE from last year? Because any translated line from Single-A is going to look ugly in a major league context. I mean, do you think of Thomas Neal as a .240/.300/.380 hitter?
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
Did you get those numbers from minorleaguesplits.com’s MLE? If not, eerie!
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
thats what i figured his peak would be
pretty unscientific but Babip of 260 or so with K rate around 30, not many walks and slightly below average power.
He’s 22 and already a corner OF, so you can’t really count defense as a plus tool. Most good corner OF don’t play good corner OF in the minors, they play CF.
The importance of a trowing arm is overrated. Unless you’re Clemente or Damon, it’s not going too make that much of a difference.
I was promised lasagna.
Schierholtz never played CF in the minors, but he seems to be a plus defender. Which just furthers the comparison made of those two earlier, I guess.
I agree that throwing arm isn’t that big of a deal.
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
Fine, make me work and back things up and stuff
Schierholtz didn’t play CF, but he did play 3B, which is still harder than RF.
Here are the 15 corner outfielders with the best UZR’s from the past 3 years:
LF:
Carl Crawford (used to be a CF)
Matt Holliday (3B)
David DeJesus (CF)
Eric Byrnes (CF)
Fred Lewis (CF)
Alfonso Soriano (2B)
RF:
Jayson Werth ©
Gabe Gross (?)
Randy Winn (CF)
Austin Kearns
Nelson Cruz (?)
Ichiro Suzuki (CF)
Alex Rios (CF)
J.D. Drew (CF)
Hunter Pence (CF)
12 of the 15 used to play a position higher in the defensive spectrum. Only one was a corner OF all the way. There are two question marks, because I couldn’t figure out which OF positions Cruz and Gross played in low minors. I’m pretty sure Cruz never played CF, and I’m pretty sure that Gross did, so that gives us only 2 natural corner OF’s, compared to 13 who moved there from a harder position. Werth, by the way, isn’t copyrighted, he just used to play catcher and SBN is stoopid.
There are exceptions for any rule, but I definitely think we can say that the vast majority of good defensive corner OF’s used to play tougher positions.
I was promised lasagna.
I had thought so too, but: http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=cruz—002nel
…seems to say otherwise.
Merkin Valdez? Manuel Mateo? A rose by any other name...
Fair enough
But as was said with speed, you don’t have to be one of the best defensive outfielders in the game for defense to be an asset. You just have to be above average.
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
And out of curiosity
Since you’re so down on Kieschnick and Crawford, where do you think they should be ranked?
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
I’m relatively down on Kieschnick and Crawford, and I like Ehire and Rodriguez more than most, so it’s a big mess. I’m thinking maybe Rodriguez/Ehire/Crawford/Kieschnick for the next 4.
I was promised lasagna.
Okay. I was worried you didn’t want them in the top 15 at all or something. That sounds reasonable, although I don’t really agree.
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
Wait Nate played 3b?
Put him at third, Pablo at 1b and sign Holliday! Offense – solved!
co-dad w/AfDC of
Ishikawa, the Topps Rookie All Star Team's First baseman. Does he get a chance in 2010?
Hmm
So far, it’s Kieschnick with 6 votes, Crawford with 4, Joseph with 2.
I was just defending Crawford over Adrianza on another thread, but in this case: Crawford voters, I think you’re crazy. Explain yourself: why is he a better prospect than Kieschnick or Joseph? I don’t see it.
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
(Okay, marcello already did so above. But I’d be interested to hear from others.)
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
I don’t see a lot to separate Kieschnick from Crawford. The former is clearly a better hitter, but then he has to be. They both face an uphill battle in trying to the plate discipline problem mentioned below.
Ceiling
Someone (maybe it was you, I don’t remember) recently mentioned Khalil Greene without the psychological issues as Crawford’s ceiling. I agree, though I’d add that his defense seems better than Greene’s. Kieschnick, with his power, has a higher ceiling in my opinion.
Of course, you’re right – the positional thing does make a big difference.
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
Lets just say, for argument’s sake, that Crawford’s closest comp is Greene, and Roger’s closest comp is Jeromy Burnitz. Let’s assume that Crawford’s superior defense cancels out his possible inferior DINGERZ abilities.
While the fangraphs info on Burnitz is incomplete, it looks like the two players were (or, have been in Greene’s case) worth a similar amount.
So you have to ask yourself, do you think Crawford is more likely to evolve into Greene, or Roger into Burnitz? I went with Roger, but I think its almost a coinflip
Merkin Valdez? Manuel Mateo? A rose by any other name...
I don’t think that Kieschnick is a better hitter at all. They both mashed at high-A in their age-22 seasons, and Crawford hit better. Plus, he’s a shortstop, which is far more valuable than Kieshnick’s OF. The AA numbers are a little scary in terms of how he’ll progress, but the PCL does inflate numbers and the Eastern League supposedly deflates them. Besides, Kieschnick hasn’t even been to AA, so we don’t have any idea how he’ll perform. Crawford>Kieschnick offensively, defensively (so I’ve heard), and positionally.
I voted for Runzler, but Crawford’s my #6 pick.
Crawford’s A+ numbers need to be taken with a truckload of salt, due to the sample size and .480 BABIP. As a strong Crawford backer, I don’t think there is any way you can say his bat is better than Kieschnick’s.
Juan Carlos Perez, please start hitting.
Agreed, but it at least showed there is some life in his bat. The biggest concern with me on Crawford is the huge drop in SLG between san jose and Conn. I’m not sure how much we can realistically blame on Dodd
Proud adoptive daddy for the Big Unit, who is currently teaching Madison Bumgarner the art of being intimidating.
by Speedforthewin on Dec 4, 2009 8:29 AM PST up reply actions
Really, if you’re biggest worry with Crawford isn’t the contact issues, then I don’t think you’re looking at the right numbers.
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
I am concerned about the contact issues. There were two big red flags. I concentrated on the one I might be able to explain first, but i don’t even know that Dodd can explain that big of a drop in SLG. But I am very concerned that Crawford is just completely fooled by breaking balls, and that he turns out to only be a fastball hitter.
Proud adoptive daddy for the Big Unit, who is currently teaching Madison Bumgarner the art of being intimidating.
by Speedforthewin on Dec 4, 2009 8:50 AM PST up reply actions
I’ve only seen him play a couple times, but one thing I noticed when I did see him was that he seemed to be swinging about 88-89 MPH all the time. Slow stuff he was waaay out front of and harder stuff he was waaaay behind. It used to be an open secret that Reggie Sanders couldn’t hit a decent fastball, but at least he murdered breaking balls. I’m not sure if it’s possible to have a major league career if you can’t hit the fast or slow stuff.
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
They both mashed at high-A in their age-22 seasons, and Crawford hit better.
…in 25 games. Kieschnick had a couple of months where he hit for as much power as Crawford did in that stint. He never posted as high an OBP, but that OBP was almost entirely BA-based. Crawford’s not hitting .371 in the real world.
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
In San Jose, Crawford had 75 points of IsoOBP, Kieschnick had 50. Treat the SSS as you will, but Crawford did show a better ability to take a walk in his time in San Jose.
Proud adoptive daddy for the Big Unit, who is currently teaching Madison Bumgarner the art of being intimidating.
by Speedforthewin on Dec 4, 2009 8:33 AM PST up reply actions
To add to what I wrote above, if Crawford can put up a .300 wOBA with +5 defense, then he’d be a just below league average player. I think he has some upside with his bat too, that gives him the potential to clear .300.
Juan Carlos Perez, please start hitting.
RafRod. Very young, very projectable, and seems not to suffer from the plate discipline problem that is the waterloo of nearly every Giants hitting prospect.
This
Kiechnick scares me because of the Ks and low BB rate. Don’t like Joseph here because of position issue and lack of experience. So, go with the guy who has the most tools.
Innocent until proven guilty...
by AngelWillSaveUs on Dec 3, 2009 11:25 AM PST up reply actions
I think all of the non-RafRodians are crazy and stupid, and I’d like them to never visit this site again.
ATTN: XEIFRANK
Grant just banned 85% of McCoven!
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
By my projections, this means that only 15% of McCoven remain.
vr
-Xeifrank
Joe Martinez: You are cool.
When it's all said and done, America will be remembered for three things: The Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
I went with Joseph, but RafRod is my #6. I’d give Kieschnick a 1 in 50 chance of ever becoming a decent major leaguer.
I was promised lasagna.
haters gonna hate
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
It’s not just that, I’m also a lot more optimistic about Rodriguez than most. The way I see it:
What we knew before this season:
- Rodriguez has a lot of power potential.
- ????
What we know now:
- Rodriguez has a lot of power potential.
- He also seems to have decent contact skills and strike-zone judgment.
I was promised lasagna.
I’m a bit skeptical about the plate discipline numbers he put up in the AZL, but it definitely was good to see.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
I’m sure the AZL inflate BB’s, and the sample size was very small, but K’s and BB’s stabilize quickly, which means that K/BB stabilizes even quicker (right? Is that how math works? Suddenly I’m not sure).
I was promised lasagna.
It should stabilize as quickly as the slowest one stabilizes, right?
Juan Carlos Perez, please start hitting.
Yeah, in general the ratio wouldn’t necessarily stabilize more quickly than the underlying variables. I would think if you wanted to construct a confidence interval on the K/BB rate you’d compute standard errors for K% and BB% and then find the confidence interval based on the max and min of (K% +/- 1.96*SE)/(BB% +/- 1.96*SE). That would be making the assumption that deviations from the “true mean” for K% and BB% are not significantly correlated, which seems plausible to me.
Still have not watched one episode of that
I don’t really like DOB
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
GET THAT VORP AND WHIP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!
I went with Joseph
I have this weird fetish with upside…
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
GET THAT VORP AND WHIP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!
Joseph
I like the ceiling and he’s already flashed power, unlike RafRod
Psycho killer, qu'est-ce que c'est?
RafRod’s a year younger than Joseph and playing against better competition. I think if he was playing HS ball last year he would’ve displayed power.
Innocent until proven guilty...
by AngelWillSaveUs on Dec 3, 2009 11:27 AM PST up reply actions
I really like RafRod, but he’s a beanpole. Joseph seems a lot more physically developed and scouts (BA and Sickels) seem to think there are a lot fewer questions with his bat.
Very close between the two… maybe RafRod should be ranked higher based on position and potential. I haven’t seen anything indicating he’s ready to hit for power. Joseph already looks like a beast, although the question remains as to whether the power will make it out of batting practice.
Psycho killer, qu'est-ce que c'est?
This series is starting to renew my faith in the farm system.
Out of curiosity, where would you rank Alderson? I think Alderson/Kieschnick/Joesph(No particular order) would make the 5/6/7 spots on my personal top 10.
say hey nation is the Ralph Nader of McC.-Xanthan
Alderson would definitely go here, I think. Barnes would still make my top 10 as well.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
convince me
what you’ve seen from alderson this last year makes him more of an asset than runzler ?
Infinitely better control? The capability to be a starter?
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
I wonder how fall his velocity has to drop for all of that to be irrelevant.
Merkin Valdez? Manuel Mateo? A rose by any other name...
Alderson’s also 3 years younger than Runzler.
I would probably have Alderson at #5 and Barnes at like #8.
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
Barnes at 8? That seems high to me. I don’t really see much difference between Barnes and Tanner.
by Wonderful Terrific Monds on Dec 3, 2009 12:07 PM PST up reply actions
K rate.
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
Barnes K rate did take a hit after his promotion. Tanner’s likely will as well, but I don’t expect that we’ll see a big difference in their K rates in the upper minors.
I’d rate Barnes ahead of Tanner. I just don’t think there’s that big of a gap.
by Wonderful Terrific Monds on Dec 3, 2009 12:16 PM PST up reply actions
One is a starter and the other isn’t. Starting pitchers are more valuable than pitchers who are not starters. By track record, they’re not as dissimilar as you think, so the starter has more value.
Joe Martinez: You are cool.
When it's all said and done, America will be remembered for three things: The Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
Also
So far, we’ve had the following number of comments on these polls:
173
163
235
Last year, I think we maxed out around 160-170 throughout the whole process. And these polls have only been running a day so far. Nice!
Juan Carlos Perez, please start hitting.
Someone tell me what to have for lunch
Nothing in the house and I’m sick of burritos.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
I just had a cup of fruit!
WHY IS BOCOCK?!
by Lars The Wanderer on Dec 3, 2009 11:30 AM PST up reply actions
I feel your pain, Lars. The doctor has me on a pretty healthy diet due to a lingering peristalsis issue.
Merkin Valdez? Manuel Mateo? A rose by any other name...
Baked chicken and broccoli
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
GET THAT VORP AND WHIP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!
I have a feeling
That one day, when I’m really bored and/or drunk, I’ll stat going through every single comment jponry, BVCE, CoC, Merope, and tk post, and reply with TWSS.
I was promised lasagna.
Side-track
I’m sure a lot of y’all are just making your votes up as you go along, but I’m sure some of y’all have made your own top 10 list. I’d be curious to see them.
Here’s mine at the moment, with the caveat that I’m constantly tweaking it an #9 and #10 could easily be swapped out with at least five other guys:
1) Buster Posey C
2) Madison Bumgarner LHP
3) Thomas Neal OF
4) Zack Wheeler RHP
5) Roger Kieschnick OF
6) Tommy Joseph C/1B
7) Rafael Rodriguez OF
8) Brandon Crawford SS
9) Nick Noonan 2B
10) Dan Runzler LHP
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
1) Buster Posey C
2) Madison Bumgarner LHP
3) Thomas Neal OF
4) Zack Wheeler RHP
5) Roger Kieschnick OF
6) Brandon Crawford SS
7) Tommy Joseph C/1B
8) Rafael Rodriguez OF
9) Nick Noonan 2B
10) Dan Runzler LHP
say hey nation is the Ralph Nader of McC.-Xanthan
by say hey nation on Dec 3, 2009 11:40 AM PST up reply actions
Going forward, this is probably how ill vote
Merkin Valdez? Manuel Mateo? A rose by any other name...
This is probably similar to what I’ll end up with. The Crawford fans have been very persuasive ITT
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
No kidding
say hey nation is the Ralph Nader of McC.-Xanthan
by say hey nation on Dec 3, 2009 11:44 AM PST up reply actions
Where were all you Crawford Apologists when I was defending him from the brutal combined onslaught of Cookyman and Evan!?
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
I like jcb9’s list. Crawford’s K rate still scares the crap out of me.
by Wonderful Terrific Monds on Dec 3, 2009 11:47 AM PST up reply actions
+1 all around
His K rate was scary, and the handful of times I saw him in SJ he was swinging at everything, though when he connected he hit it hard. I’ll point out here (so Azmanz and the other Crawford fans won’t have to) that he seemed to be getting a better feel the last month and a half in AA. I’m too lazy to look up the stats but his lines seemed to improve.
Noonan. Nooooonan!
by Giant Fan in Singapore on Dec 3, 2009 1:04 PM PST up reply actions
what’s the reasoning on Noonan now? I’ve kinda lost most interest in him. Is it mainly age and position? Why above Adrianza?
Psycho killer, qu'est-ce que c'est?
Noonan has a chance to be a decent stick. He still needs to figure out lefties though.
Most on the board seem pretty skeptical that Adrianza will ever provide anything of value at the plate.
by Wonderful Terrific Monds on Dec 3, 2009 11:49 AM PST up reply actions
I was really down on Noonan during the first half of 2009, but his alleged best plate discipline in the system started to show up down the stretch – .351 in August, .377 in September. He’s still a few spots lower for me this year than he was last, but that gave me some home.
Noonan vs. Adrianza? I guess it comes down to valuing defense vs. offense. Noonan, while not a very good hitter so far, has been better than Adrianza at equivalent ages so far. Adrianza is probably a better defender, but Noonan is supposed to be good, yes?
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
For the record, I found my list from last year
1) Madison Bumgarner LHP
2) Buster Posey C
3) Angel Villalona 1B
4) Tim Alderson RHP
5) Nick Noonan 2B
6) Conor Gillaspie 3B
7) Rafael Rodriguez OF
8) Henry Sosa RHP
9) Sergio Romo RHP
10) Roger Kieschnick OF
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
where's adrianza?
This looks pretty similar to how I’ll vote, but I wonder what your reasoning is for valuing Crawford so much higher than Adrianza. It seems to me that the case for Crawford, his high floor as a defensive specialist combined with some ceiling, applies nearly as much to Adrianza.
Crawford has had more success against better opponents.
say hey nation is the Ralph Nader of McC.-Xanthan
by say hey nation on Dec 3, 2009 12:11 PM PST up reply actions
There was a rather lengthy discusssion comparing Crawford and Adrianza in the last thread: link
We're all basically Pedro Feliz.
I read that, and I rank Crawford higher than Adrianza personally. I just think logically if Crawford is above eg RafRod, then Adrianza oughta be too. Or at least I want to hear the argument otherwise.
Yeah, I think after the first 4 there are pretty good arguments to be made for a lot of guys. I think with the young guys you have to go off scouting reports more than the stats (since there usually isn’t a lot of data and their bodies are likely to change more). So from what I understand RafRod is the more highly thought of prospect.
We're all basically Pedro Feliz.
good list jcb9
my list probably would include peguero at 9- 10, but i’m more optimistic than most on him. i think his speed and defense will be extremely valuable if he continues to hit.
A .340/.359 line scares the crap out of me. That could easily turn into .260/.279.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
I agree with jponry. I think the plate discipline issues should keep him out of the top 10.
by Wonderful Terrific Monds on Dec 3, 2009 12:02 PM PST up reply actions
I think I like Darren Ford more than Peguero. He is 2 years older, and he did repeat A ball (although mostly in a different league), but he’s shown good plate discipline and I guess I buy into the whole giving up switch hitting thing with him.
We're all basically Pedro Feliz.
I think I’m leaning the same way. I think Ford’s upside is unusually high for a late bloomer.
by Wonderful Terrific Monds on Dec 3, 2009 12:08 PM PST up reply actions
Peguero seems to me to be a Vernon Wells type player
say hey nation is the Ralph Nader of McC.-Xanthan
by say hey nation on Dec 3, 2009 12:10 PM PST up reply actions
That… comparison makes no sense to me.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
When I hear about him I think about Vernon Wells. I have no reason other than somehow my brain has connected the two.
say hey nation is the Ralph Nader of McC.-Xanthan
by say hey nation on Dec 3, 2009 12:17 PM PST up reply actions
looks fun
1-4: same as above
5 Runzler
6 RafRod
7 Joseph
8 Joaquin
9 Crawford
10 Tanner
wild card is Dominguez. Apparently the Giants drafted him to pitch, but he wants to hit. I trust the team’s ability to judge pitching talent; to burn a 3rd round pick on a guy who doesn’t want to pitch means they think is probably a supp round talent on the mound. not sure how to rank that.
Uh, I’m pretty sure they didn’t draft him to pitch.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
Perhaps not
But i found this to be interesting reading
http://www.sportingnews.com/blog/MLB_Draft/tag/160268/Chris%20Dominguez
He’ll be on the other end of the Light Tower Power!
Giant Dirtbags: John Bowker, Steve Hammond. MIA List: Todd Jennings, Brian Anderson
Jeremy Affeldt induces DP's
by Giant among Angels on Dec 3, 2009 12:47 PM PST up reply actions
OH NO!!!!
On the mound, however, one AL scout said Dominguez looked like former major-league closer Armando Benitez. He has that kind of presence.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
as long as he does his job…
STEVE HOLM! refuses to be the odd man out.
by UnleashTheGore on Dec 3, 2009 1:49 PM PST up reply actions
I agree with 1-8, 9-X i am still deciding.
Giant Dirtbags: John Bowker, Steve Hammond. MIA List: Todd Jennings, Brian Anderson
Jeremy Affeldt induces DP's
by Giant among Angels on Dec 3, 2009 12:35 PM PST up reply actions
1. Posey
2. Bumgarner
3. Neal
3a. Villalona
4. Runzler
5. Crawford
6. Wheeler
7. RafRod
8. Kieschnick
9. Joseph
10. Noonan
I don’t like ranking players who haven’t played professionally yet. I get that Wheeler’s a great pitcher and this time next year he’ll be my #3 or #4 in all likelihood, but even sixth is pushing it IMO. Same problem with Joseph. And yeah, Runzler might be a little high, but he did well everywhere last year, and power lefties aren’t easy to find. Worst case scenario, he becomes a good middle reliever. Best case, shutdown closer. Also not huge on Kieschnick (good numbers in hitter-friendly PCL playing OF) and Noonan (decent numbers in hitter-friendly PCL playing 2B) and because of positional adjustments and age they’re pretty interchangeable at this point. Kieshnick’s apparently got a higher ceiling, though, so he gets the better spot.
assuming you mean the Cal League, it is a hitter’s friendly league but the San Jose park is a strong pitcher’s park.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
I do share some skepticism for ranking guys who haven't played yet
But I wouldn’t automatically bump them out of the top 5, either. If you were a Nationals fan, would you be unwilling to rank Stephen Strasburg in the top 5?
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
apples and oranges
strasburg college and AFL innings compared to a wheeler’s suspect high school competition.
yeah, but that's not what he said
I don’t like ranking players who haven’t played professionally yet.
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
I don't
Wheeler and Joseph lose a few spots due to their inexperience. I did rank them #6 and #9 overall, which are good positions, though lower than most. I didn’t mean that I wouldn’t rank them at all, just that it’s hard because they haven’t played professionally yet. Big difference.
Yeah, I saw that you had them in there
And like I said, I share the reticence somewhat. I was just curious how, err, ideological you were on the question.
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
No
But that has more to do with his 104-MPH velocity, his repertoire of already-developed pitches, and the fact that the Nats farm system sucks. Strasburg is a singular talent, an already-developed pitcher, in a system that has something like four real prospects. Wheeler and Joseph are neither of those things.
1) Buster Posey C
2) Madison Bumgarner LHP
3) Zach Wheeler RHP
4) Thomas Neal OF
5) Rafael Rodriguez OF
6) Roger Kieschnick OF
7) Tommy Joseph C/1B
8) Nick Noonan 2B
9) Ehire Adrianza SS
10) Brandon Crawford SS
Projectability favors prominently here (in contrast to quincy), as does OBP bias.
Lethargy
It has me
1) Buster Posey, C
2) Madison Bumgarner, LHP
3)Thomas Neal, LF/RF
4) Zack Wheeler, RHP
5) Brandon Crawford, SS
6) Roger Kieschnick, OF
7) Dan Runzler, LHP
8) Tommy Joeseph, C/1B
9) Ehire Adrianza, SS
10) Rafael Rodriguez, OF
Just Missing: Nick Noonan, 2B; Darren Ford, OF; Francisco Peguero, CF; Waldis Joaquin, RHP
*Angel Villalona would be #7 on this list
Proud adoptive daddy for the Big Unit, who is currently teaching Madison Bumgarner the art of being intimidating.
by Speedforthewin on Dec 4, 2009 8:42 AM PST up reply actions
Hey, something just occurred to me re: the Angel solution
If the Giants do end up signing Wagner Mateo, maybe we should do the same with him.
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
I don’t know if I would rank him in the top 10. Maybe kick Runzler out?
say hey nation is the Ralph Nader of McC.-Xanthan
by say hey nation on Dec 3, 2009 11:45 AM PST up reply actions
I think the eye problems are too sketchy for me to rank him in the top 10 with no pro data to go off of, but he’d definitely make my top 15 if we signed him.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
Thats what I was thinking. He has the tools, but can he still see?
say hey nation is the Ralph Nader of McC.-Xanthan
by say hey nation on Dec 3, 2009 11:47 AM PST up reply actions
I just can’t see it.
Officially disinterested in any high school outfielders from the state of Mississippi.
I haven’t voted yet, but I’m leaning Crawford.
Does Peguero play awesome defense or something? cuz there doesn’t seem to be a whole lot there so far.
Please hit better, Randy Winn.
I believe that Peguero’s arm, defense, speed and hitting are supposed to be above average. I’ve also read some reports projecting 10-15 HR power.
He needs to learn to take a walk.
by Wonderful Terrific Monds on Dec 3, 2009 12:04 PM PST up reply actions
One more thing I'm curious about
How down are we all on Gillaspie? I’m thinking he’s definitely out of the top ten, but still has a place in the top 15.
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
Until he unlearns the strike zone he is out of the top 10.
say hey nation is the Ralph Nader of McC.-Xanthan
by say hey nation on Dec 3, 2009 12:04 PM PST up reply actions
+1
too many walks…. maybe top 20 if he starts hacking.
i think he’ll end up at 12-14. I’m glad he has plate discipline but you gotta slug better than .400 in the CAL league, come on.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
Went with Roger. Wanted to go with Joseph, but not yet. Maybe by mid season, though. I will go with Joseph with my next pick. It should start to get more and more interesting here very soon. I see that Crawford is getting a considerable amount of more love. I may go with him in 2 picks from now.
Giant Dirtbags: John Bowker, Steve Hammond. MIA List: Todd Jennings, Brian Anderson
Jeremy Affeldt induces DP's
by Giant among Angels on Dec 3, 2009 12:23 PM PST reply actions
When do we talk about Ryan Cavan?
.277/.399/.518
K/BB=34/35: .97
22 year old SS.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=cavan-001rya
We're all basically Pedro Feliz.
Not until after 20, at least. How many are we doing? 20-30?
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
One thing about Cavan is he had to sit out his junior year of college because he transferred schools.
I’d like to go to 30 again. I really enjoy these lists. Of course Marcello does most of the work so it’s up to him.
We're all basically Pedro Feliz.
I’d like to go to 30 as well, as long as people are interested.
Juan Carlos Perez, please start hitting.
Yes, please! Thanks so much for doing this for everyone.
Giant Dirtbags: John Bowker, Steve Hammond. MIA List: Todd Jennings, Brian Anderson
Jeremy Affeldt induces DP's
by Giant among Angels on Dec 3, 2009 12:53 PM PST up reply actions
Anther late-round 2009 guys to consider on the back end of this
Chris Gloor: 2.87 ERA, 1.18 WHIP, 48 K in 48 1/3 innings
Who else?
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
Walsh, he didn’t pitch but I guess he had signability issues
say hey nation is the Ralph Nader of McC.-Xanthan
by say hey nation on Dec 3, 2009 12:50 PM PST up reply actions
Whoops, thought he was a pitcher
say hey nation is the Ralph Nader of McC.-Xanthan
by say hey nation on Dec 3, 2009 12:51 PM PST up reply actions
Diego Seastrunk
say hey nation is the Ralph Nader of McC.-Xanthan
by say hey nation on Dec 3, 2009 12:54 PM PST up reply actions
He didn’t sign.
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
Damn
say hey nation is the Ralph Nader of McC.-Xanthan
by say hey nation on Dec 3, 2009 12:59 PM PST up reply actions
I though Stoffel went in round 4. Either way, Graham was rated by some as the top rated HS righty going into his Junior campaign.
I’m going to rate him top 20.
by Wonderful Terrific Monds on Dec 3, 2009 1:06 PM PST up reply actions
CLOSE ENOUGH
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
uh I put this in the wrong place, but it looks like you did too
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
He’s definitely an interesting sleeper for next year but I’d like to see how he does in full-season ball before I rank him very high.
I HAVE MEMORIES OF BEING BURNED BY ANDY D’ALLESSIO!
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
Although, D’Allesio played 4 years in a major college program before being drafted in the 19th round. Cavan spent one year at Trinity University, then one year at Chapman University before transferring to UCSB and playing only one year there. So you could argue that he was relatively unknown when he was drafted in the 16h round.
We're all basically Pedro Feliz.
The #6 vote will be interesting
Right now, Kieschnick has a solid lead, but Crawford, Joseph, Rodriguez, and Runzler are all very close for second place.
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
You’d think that with all of the Roger vs Brandon talk that a lot of Roger support will go to Brandon.
Merkin Valdez? Manuel Mateo? A rose by any other name...
Not to presume things about Buster's career
but does Joseph’s ability to stay at catcher mean that much to the Giants outside of his possible trade value?
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
I think that’s one of those things you worry about later. IF he develops as a prospect and IF he can stay at catcher and IF he can stay healthy, then you worry about it when you cross that bridge. I don’t much about present day roster construction for prospects.
Also, we both know that Posey will be playing SS by the time Tommy is ready to hit dingers in The City.
You mean left field?
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
GET THAT VORP AND WHIP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!
Yeah, that doesn’t matter for rating purposes. But consider that by the time Joseph is 24-25, Posey will be hitting free agency.
Whoooooooooa
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
and very pessimistic.
Proud adoptive daddy for the Big Unit, who is currently teaching Madison Bumgarner the art of being intimidating.
by Speedforthewin on Dec 4, 2009 8:44 AM PST up reply actions
Another name
how well do we think Matt Graham is going to do? Sickels didn’t include him but he also had a lot more relief arms on his list than I think we’re going to include.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
I remember the name, but that’s about it…
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
fourth rounder high school pitcher
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
CLOSE ENOUGH
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
Some folks had him as the top HS pitcher going into his Junior campaign.
by Wonderful Terrific Monds on Dec 3, 2009 1:10 PM PST up reply actions
He got the 3rd highest bonus of any of the Giants 2009 draft picks (around $500K; less than Wheeler and Joseph, but more than Dominguez).
A $500K signing bonus is mid- late 2nd round money, I think.
Still the loving, adoptive father of Hector Sanchez. And who doesn't love switch-hitting catchers with power and patience?
Tommy Joseph
Because ‘light tower power’ is kinda catchy. And people with two first names rule.
"It's too late now."
He certainly looks like a catcher.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
He also looks about 45.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
He really doesn't look like a Tommy
He looks like he should have some really gruff-sounding name. Like Brutus Blood or something.
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
I never come up with nicknames that anybody likes. Sniffle.
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
Sorry, but sniffle is a pretty lame nickname.
Merkin Valdez? Manuel Mateo? A rose by any other name...
I HATE YOU AND YOUR ASS FACE
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
Ass Face is a pretty good nickname.
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Dec 3, 2009 1:24 PM PST up reply actions
A or B?
A
B
say hey nation is the Ralph Nader of McC.-Xanthan
by say hey nation on Dec 3, 2009 1:37 PM PST up reply actions
His nose is big and his mouth is too high.
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Dec 3, 2009 1:25 PM PST up reply actions
You know what? We can’t all be beauty queens like you, Howie.
Merkin Valdez? Manuel Mateo? A rose by any other name...
We should start doing that, it did work out for the Yankees!
say hey nation is the Ralph Nader of McC.-Xanthan
by say hey nation on Dec 3, 2009 1:34 PM PST up reply actions
I think there’s a huge dropoff after 4. But there’s not really a big gap between any of prospects 5-11.
Please hit better, Randy Winn.
I think I’m going to go RafRod at 6.
then Crawford, Adrianza, Kieschnick, Noonan, and Runzler. But I’m not married to any of those spots.
I really want to like Runzler more but Alex Hinshaw and Billy Sadler won’t let me.
Please hit better, Randy Winn.
Kiesch
tough call. I originally had RafRod, Kiesch and Joseph as the 5-6-7 prospects, but I moved RafRod down to 7 and moved the other two up accordingly. However, after thinking it over, I’m tempted to move Crawford up a bit. His bat is the biggest issue, but he’s certainly shown flashes of brilliance with it. I’m fairly impressed with his AFL line, though Ks are certainly a big problem for someone without his power. Reportedly his defense is excellent, though I did see that he played some 3b and 2b in the AFL. However, he seems like such a streaky guy so I’ll probably keep him at 9.
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Dec 3, 2009 1:58 PM PST reply actions
Help me please
I keep getting confused. The AFL counts. The AFL doesn’t count. Small sample size. Player is tired after long season. HELP!!!!
I thought MCC operated on grougthink.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
Even Grant’s Boss?
Proud adoptive daddy for the Big Unit, who is currently teaching Madison Bumgarner the art of being intimidating.
by Speedforthewin on Dec 4, 2009 8:45 AM PST up reply actions
Looking over the vote totals thus far, I’d say the Joseph people and the Rodriguez people need to get together and decide on a candidate, or Runzler is going to take the #6 spot. And that just ain’t right.
Ok. All you Rafrod people come over here and join me on the Joseph side!
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
We can go back to your place for at 7.
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
I'm a Kieschnick person
But I’m down with Joseph for #6.
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
What’s in it for me? Can I get some Noonan votes at #8?
Actually, it looks like Runzler has a decent chance of passing Kieschnick as the late precincts report.
I blame Baggs.
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
I’m already over here.
I’ll make my case against Runzler when the thread opens up tomorrow.
Please hit better, Randy Winn.
I went RafRod
#1 threat to America: Pandas
Also, Tim Lincecum
Adopted Father: Tyler Graham
Official McPokeMaster
Registered Velezbian and supporter of Fredemption
dude hit .300 at age 16. Power is not there, but I know people have had this debate before, and most people seem to think it will come.
#1 threat to America: Pandas
Also, Tim Lincecum
Adopted Father: Tyler Graham
Official McPokeMaster
Registered Velezbian and supporter of Fredemption
by GrahamCrakalaka on Dec 3, 2009 8:50 PM PST up reply actions
Crawford plays one of the toughest defensive positions very well, he hit better than Kieshnick at the same level and already has more experience at higher levels (AA and the AFL). Crawford is closer the big leagues and could potentially fill a very tough position for us. Wheeler hasn’t thrown a pitch and Joseph hasn’t taken a swing yet. Crawford should be #3, Neal #4 and Kieshnick closer to #7.
Crawford only had a .294 OBP
and only 4 HRs
and he only played 25 games at A+, I really diyubt he would have maintained a .445 OBP.
#1 threat to America: Pandas
Also, Tim Lincecum
Adopted Father: Tyler Graham
Official McPokeMaster
Registered Velezbian and supporter of Fredemption
by GrahamCrakalaka on Dec 3, 2009 9:10 PM PST up reply actions
In 25 games in A+ Crawford had a 371/445/600/1045 line
In 129 games in A+ Neal had a 337/431/579/1010 line
129>>>>>>>>>>>>>25
say hey nation is the Ralph Nader of McC.-Xanthan
by say hey nation on Dec 4, 2009 6:20 AM PST up reply actions
I’m big on Crawford and I even think that’s insane
Proud adoptive daddy for the Big Unit, who is currently teaching Madison Bumgarner the art of being intimidating.
by Speedforthewin on Dec 4, 2009 8:46 AM PST up reply actions
Kieschnick, I guess...
I went with Kieschnick at number 5. I guess the combination of okay performance and (supposed) tools convinced me. I seem to recall hearing that he’s supposed to be a good defender, too – is that right? Total Zone seems to support that, but it seems like a bit of a flaky stat. For the next three spots, I think I’m going to with Joseph – Rodriguez – Crawford, but after that it’s pretty hard to say…
I’m kind of shocked that Runzler is getting so much support at this point. He’s a hard-throwing reliever with control problems… Others have mentioned this already, but I guess it bears repeating: even if you think he’s going be the next coming of Mariano Rivera, his ceiling is something like 2 WAR. The very best relievers in career years might hit 3 WAR. Relievers are fungible and don’t pitch enough to be that valuable.
Yeah, top relievers don’t typically produce as much as top OFs (29 outfielders had 3+ WAR last year, while the RP WAR leader was Broxton at 2.9), and RPs don’t get to play consistently, as their use is contingent on the situation. But you’ll notice that successful teams are built on strong bullpens; last year’s RP WAR leaders are mostly successful/playoff teams, while the bottom is full of crap teams. That’s got something to do with the fact that those teams are generally crap, but a strong bullpen is just as important as a strong starting staff.
Besides, breeding good relievers is very difficult, which is why teams frequently pay $10M+ per year to the best closers. If Runzler’s 2010 campaign shows us he can close in 2011, we can probably ship Wilson and his two years of team control for a few good prospects next winter.
Well, I certainly agree with you that a strong bullpen is an important part of a strong team overall. And at least for a team’s better relievers, the fact that (if used correctly) they’re deployed in important (i.e. high leverage) situations means their actual in-game contributions tend to be more valuable then a context-neutral analysis (like WAR) would suggest.
But actually, good relievers aren’t as hard to come by as traditional baseball lore suggests. The list of the top-performing relief pitchers in any given year generally includes guys who were not only not top performers in previous years, but weren’t even expected to become future top performers. There are a lot of guys out there who have live arms but don’t have the secondary pitches, don’t have the stamina, or lack some other ability needed to make it as starters, but can thrive in a relief role. And the small number of innings that relievers pitch mean that their performances are even more subject to random variance than starters or position players. While there are relievers who manage to put up crazy numbers every year and earn those $10M+ contracts, the number that can do so is really limited, and for everyone else, big-money contracts for relievers are generally a poor use of resources.
Making Wilson expendable is nice, but I’d worry about the number of teams that are still willing to give up primo prospects for a reliever. Maybe there are a few organizations out there that believe in the “closer mentality” to the point that they’d give real value for someone like Wilson, but I think the number of such orgs is getting ever smaller.
by Ian in Tokyo on Dec 4, 2009 6:35 AM PST up reply actions 2 recs
Whoa
Where have you been my whole life?
/swoon
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
GET THAT VORP AND WHIP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!
I voted Rodriguez
I’m surprised more people aren’t higher on him. I think his debut is more impressive the Villalona’s was, and he was rated near the top of the list after his first year.
Also, I’m really excited to see how good Joseph is, but for all we know he’s just another hacker that can’t work a count. I’d wait til we can see what kind of approach he has at the plate, before I would rate him so high.
what's up with so many Runzler votes
If Baggerly hadn’t put him at 5 on his list, then his name wouldn’t even have been mentioned for the top 10 here
I came in late
The wireless internet on campus has been sucking horribly
Proud adoptive daddy for the Big Unit, who is currently teaching Madison Bumgarner the art of being intimidating.
when somebody posted a couple days ago that things would get interesting at #5, I thought no way, Crawford is 5 for sure, it will get interesting at 6.
Actually I now see Runzler, Joseph, Kliesch, Crawford bunched real close and maybe taking the next 4 spots. Didn’t look at the results yet to see how the community compares. Will vote Crawford since he is major league D, they say, and can swat the ball sometimes.
cheering for Adam Witter, who will hit bigleague dingers some day.
Still yelling "Go, Antoan"
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