Be warned: crazy idea follows.
by Cody_ransom on Dec 21, 2009 1:39 PM PST
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PrintSo I was on another messageboard where a poster came up with a truly ridiculous and maybe brilliant couple of ideas. Both revolve around acquiring Gary Matthews Jr.. Before you break out your Local Ties, and tell me about how Gary Matthews Jr. is the last kind of player the Giants need, take a look at these ideas, which to me seem totally acceptable from the Angels point of view but I'm not Art Moreno.
Crazy Idea Numero Uno.
Trade Aaron Rowand to the Angels for Gary Matthews Jr.
Rowand will make 12 million each of the next three seasons before his reign of terror mercilessly comes to an end after the 2012 season.
Matthews will make 10 million in 2010 and 11 million in 2011. So the Angels would only really pay for Rowand in 2012 for 12 million. I don't think that is an unreasonable cost for unloading a worthless asset. I'd like to trick myself, and ideally the Angels into believing that Rowand will perform better for them than he did for us. His gamertudeness would be definitely be welcomed by Scioscia.
In the Matthews the Giants would get a guy who is likely going to slug worse than Rowand, but the rest of his slash line would look pretty similar. Ideally Sabean would see this move as a contract dump and use Matthews off the bench in a Shawon Dunston end of his career kind of way. (Sorry to bring those memories back.) A smart GM would then test an outfield of Bowker (RF), Nate (CF), and Fred/Torres (LF).
Crazy Idea Numero Dos.
If you don't wan't to read further I can't blame you. But this is where the Zeets Twitter Page flashbacks start kicking in and things really go nuts.
Trade Zeets and 30 million for Gary Matthews.
If you consider the offsets of Matthews contract which the Giants would absorb, and 3 easy payments of just 10 million, starting in 2012, Zeets would cost the Angels, 7.5 in 2010, 6.5 in 2011, 9 mil in 2012, 10 mil in 2013, and a 3 million credit or an 8 million payment in 2014 depending on either buying out Zito for 7 mil or taking the 18 million team option. If the Angels bought out Zito the deal would cost them 30 million for 4 years. It would save the Giants 14 million over the next two years, minus the cost of replacing Zito (which is potentially very low), and as a result would give some freedom to make an impact signing.
I know this is a creative solution, so Sabean will never think of it, but what do you guys think? What do you say if you are BowTie? Moreno?
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Rowand is not worthless. Gary Matthews is completely and utterly worthless.
Rowand is not worth his contract but he has had value to the Giants the last few years as an average-ish center fielder – at 1.4 and 1.9 WAR in 08 and 09.
Matthews Jr. has been worth -1.6 WAR over the same time period. That’s NEGATIVE. He cannot play any position in the outfield competently. He can’t even fake it. Rowand, at least, is about an average defensive center fielder.
There is no world in which trading Rowand for Matthews Jr. makes the Giants a better baseball team.
The Zito idea seems to make a bit more sense for the Giants, but even with the money kick-in from the Giants, I don’t see why the Angels would do it.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
Money aside, Zito is more valuable than Matthews as well.
by AndOnTheDrums... on Dec 21, 2009 1:47 PM PST up reply actions
True, but I think the money saving aspect of the deal is supposed to be the point.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
Umm. Yeah.
Given same salaries, no one on earth would trade Zeets for Matthews.
"…this thing which tells time."
That's the point for US
It’s like the Silva for Bradley deal; the Cubs get jack squat, but they save a little cash. The M’s lose a little more money, but they turn a vacuum into a productive player. Of course, in this analogy we’re the Cubs, so we really shouldn’t be considering this.
Also, I’m pretty sure Gary Matthews is retired; if we traded Zito and $30M to the Angels for Gary Matthews they would have to re-sign him first.
I think I was a champion of getting Matthews for a bad contract swap before this year. I don’t think I would anymore.
The Basil Fawlty Moderating Strategy:
"We could run a nice blog here if we didn't have all these members getting in the way."
Kevin Frandsen, come back!
No that the contract is shorter it's less attractive, or has he just proven to be worse than you imagined possible?
"…this thing which tells time."
by Cody_ransom on Dec 22, 2009 12:12 PM PST up reply actions
Say what you will about Zito and his contract
but with the market for starting pitching as crazy as it is, the possibility that Sanchez might have to be used as trade bait for a much needed bat, and the Giants lack of pitching depth in the high minors behind Bumgarner, trading Zito now doesn’t make any sense from a baseball standpoint. Especially for someone with such little value as Matthews. As for Rowand, keep him for one more year, then see what his trade value is when he only has two years left on his contract.
by crazedcrustacean on Dec 21, 2009 1:49 PM PST reply actions
But
What if getting rid of Zito’s contract meant we could afford a guy like Texiera last year or Holliday this year?
"We're in this thing!" My adopted Giant: "Raptor Jesus" Guzman, "Sweet Jesus" Guzman and Jesus H. Guzman.
How much would it really save?
Lets say they did what is suggested above: Matthews’ contract plus 30 million, which is a total of 51 million, just to get rid of Zito’s contract. Then you have to replace his spot in the rotation with a comparable pitcher, which based on the contracts that have been signed so far this offseason, would be something similar to the 3 year, 30 million given to Randy Wolf. So based on these figures, the Giants wouldn’t really be saving much by trading Zito now, and probably wouldn’t be as good. Nor would it allow them to have much extra to use in signing someone else, especially your typical greedy Boras client.
by crazedcrustacean on Dec 21, 2009 6:47 PM PST up reply actions
This would make us demonstratably worse
These are my principles. If you don't like them, I have others. -Groucho Marx
Well, of course it would
but the idea is you free up money to actually make a good deal with someone else (in the case of the Zito deal), or give someone else a shot and free up money later (in the Rowand deal).
"…this thing which tells time."
Aren’t we in the mode where we want to take our shots in the next few years (WIN NOW)? So taking a large step backwards is not what we are trying to do.
"It appears that Sabean is playing a game of chicken with Neukom wherein he elucidates the most outrageous things he could do as ML GM without getting fired." - cornball
Exactly the point.
It would save the Giants 14 million over the next two years, minus the cost of replacing Zito (which is potentially very low), and as a result would give some freedom to make an impact signing.
"…this thing which tells time."
If you can replace Zito with MadBum
and not lose a lot of production, you are saving a lot of money right now.
"…this thing which tells time."
Right now Zito is our No. 2 starter as the lefty between Timmy and Cain. I like MadBum but there is NO WAY you can throw him in the No. 2 spot in the rotation right now. Better to ease him in as the No. 5.
"It appears that Sabean is playing a game of chicken with Neukom wherein he elucidates the most outrageous things he could do as ML GM without getting fired." - cornball
Why are you concerned with what order they pitch in?
Clearly Zito was not the No. 2 producer in the rotation last year.
You could put Sanchez between Lincecum and Cain if you insist on a R-L-R thing.
"…this thing which tells time."
Disagree
I think R-L-R is still a valuable strategy. And having Matt Cain as your #3 pitcher: ’tis a thing devoutly to be wished.
Officially disinterested in any high school outfielders from the state of Mississippi.
Proud adoptive parent of Sergio Romo. Looking forward to adopting Justin Smoak.
Case in point
2003 NLDS. I was never sure why Felipe went with Schmidt-Ponson-Rueter. After getting shut down by a hard throwing righty in Game 1, Woody would have been a different headache for the Marlins in Game 2. Ponson was Schmidt-lite.
"It's too late now."
I don’t believe that Bumgarner is going to contribute at a Zito-level in 2010.
WHY IS BOCOCK?!
by Lars The Wanderer on Dec 21, 2009 2:16 PM PST up reply actions
To clarify
I don’t believe Bumgarner will make the rotation out of spring training in 2010.
WHY IS BOCOCK?!
by Lars The Wanderer on Dec 21, 2009 2:17 PM PST up reply actions
I'd throw myself off a cliff if the Zito deal happens
The Rowand deal would also piss me off. NO
On the "Brian Sabean should be fired" bandwagon
I want winners...and Eric Berry
So you think there is a huge drop off
in talent from Bowker/Nate, Rowand, Lewis/Velez/Torres to Bowker, Nate, Lewis/Velez/Torres? I guess I am assuming that Matthews would play VERY little and as a result minimize his negative impact.
"…this thing which tells time."
I’d rather be slightly overpaying a guy for average production than wildly overpaying a guy for below replacement production, even if there’s a year of salary relief.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
this is the line for me
Adopted brother of Jason Jarvis. To pass the time during the offseason I decided to try my hand at blogging about photography and music.
I just don't like salary dumps
especially when Matthews’ contract runs longer (I think)
On the "Brian Sabean should be fired" bandwagon
I want winners...and Eric Berry
Dude, next time before you shoot down an idea,
read the idea in it’s entirety.
Matthews will make 10 million in 2010 and 11 million in 2011. So the Angels would only really pay for Rowand in 2012 for 12 million.
"…this thing which tells time."
Look, I just don't want Gary Matthews Jr.
I really could care less. It’s trading one albatross for another, just one has a longer contract but with a positive impact on the team
On the "Brian Sabean should be fired" bandwagon
I want winners...and Eric Berry
Damn the benefits, I really just don't like (fill in the blank).
Sounds similar to a goatee’d GM we all know and love with a passionate affection.
"…this thing which tells time."
What the hell are you talking about?
Gary Matthews Jr. is a terrible player. All he would possibly do for the team on a day to day basis is steal ABs from our younger guys.
On the "Brian Sabean should be fired" bandwagon
I want winners...and Eric Berry
Conceivably a player like Bowker would get the AB's Rowand leaves behind
and a worthless and not that young guy like Velez would get pushed out.
"…this thing which tells time."
Conceivably
but this Bochy we’re talking about. Wouldn’t put it past him to start Matthews Jr.
On the "Brian Sabean should be fired" bandwagon
I want winners...and Eric Berry
True.
But I think a smart managment team would consider this and make Matthews the 5th or even designate him for assignment. Giving one of the younger guys a chance to prove himself. But obviously a smart management team is not what we are dealing with.
"…this thing which tells time."
With a smart management team I'd give this idea more thought
but Bochy will love his “veteran experience” and the fact that he’s a “professional hitter” I could see Boch starting him
On the "Brian Sabean should be fired" bandwagon
I want winners...and Eric Berry
If you’re going to assume that you’ve got a smart management team, you cannot talk about the Giants. As I’ve said, you can make the best moves in the world, but you cannot stop the invasion of stupid that is Bruce Bochy and Brian Sabean.
Hypotheticals are fine, insane flights of fancy are pointless.
But could a guy on the bench feasibly replace Rowand's production.
that’s the real question. If you believe in Bowkermania, or you think Nate could play a solid CF, this should seem like a resonable solution, while crazy all at the same time.
"…this thing which tells time."
Maybe
but Gary Matthews Jr. provides 0 value for the money. I’d rather get some value for my money than none. And Bowkermania nor Nate have shown that they are reliable options. Besides, if they wanted to get those guys playing time they’d get Rowand on the pine
On the "Brian Sabean should be fired" bandwagon
I want winners...and Eric Berry
Rowand on the pine.
LOL.
but I guess that applies in my scenario as well.
"…this thing which tells time."
See that's the problem
this whole trade is for money and getting the young guys time. For the latter, benching Rowand makes the same thing happen, no matter how inconceivable the idea is. As for the money, I’d rather get some value than none
On the "Brian Sabean should be fired" bandwagon
I want winners...and Eric Berry
Maybe this is what Seattle's GM would have done if
Bow Tie was smart enough to have fired Sabean and hired Zdwhateverhisnameis. Actually he would have traded Rentarrhea or Rowand for MB, which would have been infinitely better than this idea.
"…this thing which tells time."
I was all for that deal (MB for Rowand)
Seattle’s GM looks like a great one thus far. Wish we could have had him
On the "Brian Sabean should be fired" bandwagon
I want winners...and Eric Berry
Only Gary Matthews Jr.
Could make Aaron Rowand look like a bargain. Hell, he makes Rowand look like Cameron Maybin.
These are my principles. If you don't like them, I have others. -Groucho Marx
Trading away either player would mean an admission of a mistake, and I don’t see the Giants doing that, especially when both players are likable guys.
STEVE HOLM! refuses to be the odd man out.
And Good Clubhouse Guys
"We're in this thing!" My adopted Giant: "Raptor Jesus" Guzman, "Sweet Jesus" Guzman and Jesus H. Guzman.
No thx
#1 threat to America: Pandas
Also, Tim Lincecum
Official McPokeMaster
by GrahamCrakalaka on Dec 21, 2009 2:46 PM PST reply actions
Get a room, you two.
Joe Martinez: You are cool.
When it's all said and done, America will be remembered for three things: The Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
Room?
More like a week’s stay at a Holiday Inn Express. Give me their parents phone numbers. I need to talk to them These kids need to come off restriction like right now before they turn into Nightstalkers or something.
by E Ticket on Dec 21, 2009 5:12 PM PST up reply actions
They fucking snuffed me tonight. All my friends were goin to a party and they didnt let me go. AND IM NOT EVEN OFFICAILLY GROUNDED ANYMORE!
Im not happy about posting here right now.
#1 threat to America: Pandas
Also, Tim Lincecum
Official McPokeMaster
by GrahamCrakalaka on Dec 21, 2009 10:35 PM PST up reply actions
Jason Marquis
Zito’s monies are outrageous especially when according to ESPN.com’s Buster Olney, the Nationals and free agent Jason Marquis have agreed on a two-year, $15 million deal pending a physical.
Marquis signed with the Nationals...
so does that mean the Nationals are gonna make the playoffs?
Fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life, son
by lincecuminyourface on Dec 21, 2009 8:21 PM PST up reply actions
Oh yeah I understood what you meant. I was just making a joke because every team Marquis has played for over his ten year career has made the playoffs
Fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life, son
by lincecuminyourface on Dec 21, 2009 9:57 PM PST up reply actions
Getting rid of any of those contracts doesn’t do any good until you get rid of the perpetrator and enabler of those contracts respectively… Sabean and Bochy.
Besides. Why would the Angels want to incur a liability of 36 million for a worthless contract when they’re only on the hook for 21 million for a not-quite-as-worthless contract, the beneficiary of such egregious financial malpractice, being a more athletic underachiever who can at least throw a baseball to the right base occasionally.
Now if you can find somebody with the stones to get rid of all 4 and throw Renteria into the abysss as well, then you’re talking about making some serious structural changes, not interior decorating, Perhaps then one could rationally believe that the Giants were serious about breaking from the past six years of Futility Pursuit.
by E Ticket on Dec 21, 2009 5:09 PM PST reply actions
The answer is....
This left-handed pitcher once dated Alyssa Milano.
Officially disinterested in any high school outfielders from the state of Mississippi.
Proud adoptive parent of Sergio Romo. Looking forward to adopting Justin Smoak.
DONT YOU OBJECTIFY BARRY!!!
Utter frustration and futility.
by Johnny Disaster on Dec 22, 2009 4:46 PM PST up reply actions
GMJ is bad, bad bad, bad. No thanks
Giant Dirtbags: John Bowker, Steve Hammond. MIA List: Todd Jennings, Brian Anderson
Jeremy Affeldt induces DP's
by Giant among Angels on Dec 21, 2009 7:19 PM PST reply actions
The key questions here are?
Is more really less? or Is less really more? If Rowand were making 5 mil a year, and zito 7 to 8 mil a year, it would still be a lot, but reasonable as we might actually have a cheap management with enough money to attract a real star for the money instead of mediocre talent, for big talent money. Buying mediocre talent for big talent money is a stumbling block which can hold a team back from being a playoff team as opposed to merely being competitive.
Merry Xmas.
Merry Xmas!
Giant Dirtbags: John Bowker, Steve Hammond. MIA List: Todd Jennings, Brian Anderson
Jeremy Affeldt induces DP's
by Giant among Angels on Dec 21, 2009 8:31 PM PST up reply actions
Why would the Angels want either of those dudes?
Matt Cain: throwing complete game shutouts since 06'. No big deal.
by cain1rstballothof on Dec 22, 2009 1:23 AM PST reply actions
It's not how much they want Zito or Rowand
How much did you “want” Rajai at the time? Had you even heard of him? Personally I didn’t give a crap who came back in the Morris deal.
"…this thing which tells time."
what if the guy coming back had a longer contract with more money owed to him than Morris? I bet you would’ve cared.
Thing A
More craziness
I’ve been frustrated as I think many of you have been with the actions of the off season. At some level I almost admire Sabean for staying on the sidelines because the market is that exciting anyway. However, my admiration would rise if I had an idea what Sabean is going to do to address our offense. I don’t want to waste the pitching much like we did the hitting of BLB by never making the bold move.
Cain trade ideas have basically become a punchline but indulge me for a minute.
Matt Cain, Jerermy Affledt and Ishikawa (if they want him) for Justin Smoak and Nefatali Feliz.
It sends pitching that can help the Rangers win now and gives us prospects who are ready to step in relatively quickly. Thoughts?
I would love that trade
But there’s no way the Rangers do that
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
GET THAT VORP AND WHIP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!
I don’t want to waste the pitching much like we did the hitting of BLB by never making the bold move.
This is the second time in ten years that the Giants have a historically outstanding asset at a reasonable (or even cheap) price in the last 10 years, and they will likely squander it. So frustrating. So frustrating.
"…this thing which tells time."
This is an organization that had Bonds Burks and Kent and couldn't win a playoff series.
"…this thing which tells time."
That's fair. I save my craziest stuff for Haft's bag of mail.
"…this thing which tells time."
by Cody_ransom on Dec 22, 2009 12:13 PM PST up reply actions
Interesting to read the Yankees inquired about Zambrano. Do they know something? The Cubs need a centerfielder so maybe it was to trade them Melky.
If you can’t hit or sign hitters get better pitching.
What about Rowand/Pucetas/FLew for Zambrano?
This deal gets Bowker into left full time (hopefully) to see what he can really do and moves the Torres/Velez platoon to center.
Radical Racing
I am starting to think this too.
We are the anti-rockies.
The Rockies knew that because of their park they would always hit, and then tried to sign some big pitchers, Neagle and Hampton. We all know how that turned out. Since then no big money has been spent on starting pitchers, maybe because they didn’t want to repeat a mistake, maybe because they couldn’t attract any to their hitters paradise.
We seem to have the same problem on the other side of the ball.
The Rockies decided to groom their won pitching. It took several years but now they have a competitive—and even a very good—pitching staff.
I don’t know if I want to wait out all our control years on Lincecain to internally develop competent ML hitters but maybe internal development ends up being the only real solution. I hope not.
"…this thing which tells time."
they also decided to soak their baseballs
so I agree- the Giants should toast theirs for games from April-August.
Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."
"I sometimes still can get insider info and I am not a dumb or average fan.
Molina is needed."
by natteringnabob on Dec 23, 2009 6:07 PM PST up reply actions
These trades make no sense.
The Angels wouldn’t want Rowand’s and Zito’s contracts. Stick to the farm system and don’t sign free agents with long contracts, so you don’t have more Rowand and Zito contracts.
I’m used to the “grass is greener” theory of rosterbation but this is a case of the “grass is less brown”. It’s usually not greener and in this case it’s definitely browner.
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