Is Sabean's strategy going to pay off? (Bradley trade reaction)
by AngelWillSaveUs on Dec 18, 2009 11:39 AM PST
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PrintMilton Bradley has been traded to Seattle for Carlos Silva. This reduces again the number of teams looking for OF. The teams looking for corner IF help has also been reducing steadily. However, there still appears to be plenty of talent available on the FA market who could upgrade the Giants offense, in addition to the trade targets such as Uggla and Overbay. Players from an earlier top 50 FA list still available:
-Holliday
-Bay
-Beltre
-Damon
-Hudson
-Tejada
-Byrd
-LaRoche
-Branyan
-DeRosa
-Delgado
-Nady
That's quiet a few players who could be very helpful to the Giants. At the same time, I'm finding it hard to find fits for all these players around the league. It seems the number of players > than the number of spots available. IMO, Holliday will realize St. Louis is his best spot and the Mets pick up Bay because they feel they have to do something. I'd be fine with that since those players are going to get much bigger contracts than I'd want to see the Giants give them.
Still, if those signings do happen, there are plenty of players available that are improvements. As always, there is the caveat that it all depends on the deal they sign. But Sabean seems to be setting himself up to have quite a bit of leverage (especially if you include the trade options such as Uggla) to negotiate with these remaining FAs. I'm actually hopeful of how this off-season will turn out. My biggest fear is that Sabean will get nervous, break from the strategy it appears he's using and overpay for someone. But if he doesn't, the Giants could very well be in the catbird seat.
This FanPost is reader-generated, and it does not necessarily reflect the views of McCovey Chronicles. If the author uses filler to achieve the minimum word requirement, a moderator may edit the FanPost for his or her own amusement.
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One thing we can count on
If the Strategy does pay off then people here will say that Sabean was lucky that the market went down the way it did. If it doesn’t pay off people will call Sabean an idiot and demand he be fired.
True
Sabean is in that damned if you, damned if you don’t position. Last year he jumped out early and signed Affeldt (very good), Howry (not bad) and Renteria (garbage). Everyone ended up yelling about how he screwed up because Hudson and Lopez and others signed for so much less. Now he’s being patient and not making any quick moves and we get “SABEZ IS AN IDIOT” fanposts anytime another player signs. He can’t win.
Not sure what to do about my screen name at this point...
by AngelWillSaveUs on Dec 18, 2009 11:53 AM PST up reply actions
Now he’s being patient and not making any quick moves and we get "SABEZ IS AN IDIOT" fanposts anytime another player signs.
Freddie Sanchez…..’nuff said.
Why isn't Sabean held accountable for leading the Giants into many years of mediocrity???
He had to move on that because of the option. And I agree, it wasn’t the wisest move. But that’s been the only move.
Not sure what to do about my screen name at this point...
by AngelWillSaveUs on Dec 18, 2009 12:01 PM PST up reply actions
so you’re saying he deserves credit for doing absolutely nothing while other teams improve? That’s an interesting way of looking at it. Maybe he’s right, and the market will come to him. More probably he’s going to do something stupid.
No Edgar, it's not your fault, it's the fault of the idiot that plays you
I say we wait until the off-season is over and then see if he improved the team or not. I get it’s frustrating to see other teams making moves but I’d say we wait until the 100% of the moves have been made, not 20%. If he does something stupid, then we burn shit down. It’s okay if we quietly get a gas can and matches ready though, just in case.
Not sure what to do about my screen name at this point...
by AngelWillSaveUs on Dec 18, 2009 12:21 PM PST up reply actions
Uhhh….that option did not vest. There was no option.
Why isn't Sabean held accountable for leading the Giants into many years of mediocrity???
There was an option and he had to either exercise it, renegotiate or let him walk. He doesn’t get to make the decision in February.
Not sure what to do about my screen name at this point...
by AngelWillSaveUs on Dec 18, 2009 12:18 PM PST up reply actions
That’s a lot of BS. He moved quickly in order to save face for trading Alderson in a crappy deal. Put Sanchez on the market and it increases his negotiating leverage.
Why isn't Sabean held accountable for leading the Giants into many years of mediocrity???
NO.......
….exactly the opposite. His market would’ve been very limited. There was no reason to rus into an overpay deal with him……..unless you’re Sabean, of course……other than trying to justify the Alderson trade.
Why isn't Sabean held accountable for leading the Giants into many years of mediocrity???
At this point, just stop talking
You clearly have no clue how to evaluate and value baseball players.
Juan Carlos Perez, please start hitting.
Polanco’s value the last 5 years in WAR: 1.2, 5.2, 3.0, 3.1, 2.8
Sanchez’s value the last 5 years in WAR: 3.2, 4.8, 3.7, 0.3, 2.3
Polanco signed for 3yr/$18mil.
Sanchez signed for 2yr/$12mil.
Sanchez is younger. Who would you rather have?
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by AngelWillSaveUs on Dec 18, 2009 12:28 PM PST up reply actions
My favourite one is:
Sanchez total WAR over the last 5 years: 14.4
Figgins total WAR over the last 5 years: 14.2
Sanchez signed for 2/$12M
Figgins signed for 4/$36M
Proud parent of Waldis Joaquin!
Fun with selective endpoints! I predict that when we look back years from now, the Figgins deal will prove to have been a better investment. Though the Polanco deal may be better than that.
Not really selective endpoints, it’s basically their whole careers (Figgins had one previous year). I’m not saying that Sanchez should cost the same as Figgins, there are other factors, but i am trying to illustrate that despite what some people here think Sanchez has been a very decent player and his contract is perfectly in keeping with his ability. I mean we’re paying $6M a year for a player who’s been worth nearly 3 wins (per 600 PA) and yet people moaning about how much we’ve overpaid him!
I predict that when we look back Figgins will have been the better player but not enough to justify the difference in their contracts.
Proud parent of Waldis Joaquin!
From the opposite back benches...
Speaking a member of the Anti Fragile Fred Camp I would point out one large assumption ( market prices aside for this discussion) I base my assumption on and that is I doubt we are going to get 400+ quality P.A.’s from him each season.
The other question is would you view that odds of Figgens 2nd base "d" trending towards 0 UZR as a greater or lesser chance Sanchez posting 340 or above OBP? I ask because that is what has to happen for either player to bring 2 positive changes to the team’s skill set and in my opinion, make either one of them worth going after.
If you think the answer is slim to none for either than the team should have been sniffing around the Kelly Johnson A.K.A under $4M year bin.
Who’s brain did you bring me?
Brain SabeanOranother.
That's what a growth pattern gets you.
While Sanchez’s decline will cost him.
Also, what happened 4 and 5 years ago is ancient history, and virtually irrelevant compared to what’s happened the last three (and especially two) seasons. Another factor in Figgins’s favor.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
Figgins
doesn’t have a goddamn growth pattern. He had ONE good fucking year. Seriously. Almost half of his WAR from the last 5 years comes from last year, when he gave superstar value. I predict he will be a slightly above average player throughout his contract, which is about how he got paid. I think pretty much the same of Franchez.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
I’d rather have taken that money and say….an Alderson…..and have acquired Dan Uggla, for instance.
Why isn't Sabean held accountable for leading the Giants into many years of mediocrity???
Uggla shouldn’t cost someone as good as Alderson. The trade for Sanchez was an overpay, his contract extension wasn’t. They are two completely separate things.
Juan Carlos Perez, please start hitting.
There’s a reason Sabean “can’t win.” How many bad signings and bad decisions can you make before everyone permanently turns on you? When he was trading for players like Robb Nen, Jason Schmidt and Ellis Burks everyone liked him, and he was given the benefit of the doubt even when he made the infamous AJ trade. However, after so many bad signings and dubious trades it’s just a matter of time before the good feeling wears off and the feeling that anything he does is going to be shit sets in. He’s earned our dislike and our mistrust.
No Edgar, it's not your fault, it's the fault of the idiot that plays you
I get your point but I’m also of the mind what happened happened. He is our GM for 2 more years so you might as well judge him on what he is doing at the time and not bringing up the past. This isn’t a Sabean is a good GM fanpost because I don’t think he has been. But, he could have a good offseason if being patient works out. This post was more of a counter to the “WTF IS SABEAN DOING?” fanshot. Yeah, we didn’t get Bradley. But the trade also removed a team interested in the players we are interested in. That should, hypothetically, lower their demands and leverage, which could benefit the Giants a lot.
Not sure what to do about my screen name at this point...
by AngelWillSaveUs on Dec 18, 2009 12:07 PM PST up reply actions
He can’t win.
LIKE THE 2010 SF GIANTS AMIRITE???
Brian Sabean strongly encourages you to disregard the drudgery of your employment responsibilities and join him in the consumption of spirituous libations.
by satyricrash on Dec 18, 2009 12:03 PM PST up reply actions
I read the board a lot and I still don’t know what this means.
Not sure what to do about my screen name at this point...
by AngelWillSaveUs on Dec 18, 2009 12:02 PM PST up reply actions
I think it's a count of rosterbation posts
Not sure of the timeframe, but it’s probably like the last two weeks.
Juan Carlos Perez, please start hitting.
The number of rosterbation fanposts/fanshots involving the 2010 Giants outfield sitcheeayshun, between the beginning of the FA signing period and Opening Day.
I wouldn’t consider this a rosterbation post. Those are more “do we sign player x” or “we should get player y”. This is more of a discussion of strategy and if it’s working out for Sabean.
Not sure what to do about my screen name at this point...
by AngelWillSaveUs on Dec 18, 2009 12:09 PM PST up reply actions
25.75
Are you grading on a curve or what?
Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."
"I sometimes still can get insider info and I am not a dumb or average fan.
Molina is needed."
by natteringnabob on Dec 18, 2009 8:42 PM PST up reply actions
If Sabes had acquired Bradley
and he went on to have a great year, all of us keyboard GM’s would be saying, “I told you so,” but if Bradley got injured (or thought he was injured) or was unhappy about something (the fog? got turded on by a seagull?) and decided to check out, Sabes would be lambasted for signing a clubhouse cancer.
by baseballjunkie on Dec 18, 2009 12:02 PM PST reply actions
If he had made a deal like Seattle did
Trading an expensive, worthless piece of shit for Bradley, there would be almost no way to criticize the move.
Juan Carlos Perez, please start hitting.
Kind of like Rowand, you mean?
Why isn't Sabean held accountable for leading the Giants into many years of mediocrity???
I would say Scott >>>Silvia.
I mean Silvia was like watching groudball Joey Martinez on a Rowand wage scale.
Who’s brain did you bring me?
Brain SabeanOranother.
by daveinexile on Dec 18, 2009 12:15 PM PST up reply actions
This is so wrong. Rowand, although not worth what he is paid, is still a productive player. Silva is not productive at all. Rowand’s WAR last two years: 1.4 and 1.9 Silva’s: 1.5, -0.1 and coming off an injury.
Not sure what to do about my screen name at this point...
by AngelWillSaveUs on Dec 18, 2009 12:17 PM PST up reply actions
So you enjoy watching Rowand flail away at low & outside sliders or killing rallies by grounding into DPs………..for the next 3 years?
Point is that if they were willing to move him for Silva, surely Rowand would’ve interested them also.
Why isn't Sabean held accountable for leading the Giants into many years of mediocrity???
Yes
Because Rowand is better than Silva. Which is why this wouldn’t be the same as what Seattle did, it would be paying more. And while Rowand’s approach at the plate is painful to watch, he plays a decent CF which has a lot of value.
Juan Carlos Perez, please start hitting.
We kind of said the same thing about Randy Winn…….he’s an average player.
When are we going to start getting those types of players off of our team?
Why isn't Sabean held accountable for leading the Giants into many years of mediocrity???
You don't understand positional adjustments or defense
STOP.
Juan Carlos Perez, please start hitting.
When we stop getting a managment team deathly afraid to committe large ( 600 innings or more ) ammounts of play time to guys under 30 who don’t look to be blue chip All Star’s straight from AA.
Who’s brain did you bring me?
Brain SabeanOranother.
by daveinexile on Dec 18, 2009 12:37 PM PST up reply actions
It's pretty simple
Why Seattle did it: gave up nothing, received the possibility of something at the same price as the nothing. If Bradley doesn’t work out (surprisingly he has worn out his welcome a few places) they are out nothing.
If the Giants did this we would be out a league average OF and gained nothing if Bradley doesn’t work out.
This is all assuming the Cubs would have done the Bradley/Rowand swap, which far from a given since Rowand is owed more money.
Not sure what to do about my screen name at this point...
by AngelWillSaveUs on Dec 18, 2009 12:40 PM PST up reply actions
Yeah, Randy Winn was terrible, i can’t believe we were forced to have him on our team for years. When the biggest problem on your team are average players like Randy Winn then your team is a pretty good one and you have nothing to worry about!
Proud parent of Waldis Joaquin!
Our SF Giants…….we’re average to mediocre.
Why isn't Sabean held accountable for leading the Giants into many years of mediocrity???
he’s an average player…When are we going to start getting those types of players off of our team?
Let’s go ahead and worry about that once we actually get average production from every position. Right now, we are getting average or above average production from 3 out of 8. (Scott, Franchez and Panda). Could maybe bump that up to 6 if FLew, Bowker and Posey all actually started on a regular basis (though FLew and Bowker probably wouldn’t be much above avg, if at all), but we still have black holes at SS and 1B. Rowand – Not the goddamn problem.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
I’m gonna call BS. I know the numbers say otherwise, but I simply do not believe that Aaron Rowand plays a good CF. He’s an idiot, and he does idiotic things.
Someday girl I don't know when were gonna get to that place
Where we really want to go and well walk in the sun
But till then tramps like us baby we were born to RUNZ
-Proud Papa of Dan Runzler
Doesn’t take a genius to play a good CF.
In fact, if he was smarter, he probably wouldn’t make as many catches running headlong into the wall. Might draw a few more walks though.
by fantastical on Dec 19, 2009 10:00 PM PST up reply actions
+109
Seriously I would have considered the series of Garko & Fragile Fred decisions the result of an unannounced head wound and be ready to move on. It would have taken a second move like this to ignore his re-signing Big Head but that is another topic.
Who’s brain did you bring me?
Brain SabeanOranother.
by daveinexile on Dec 18, 2009 12:13 PM PST up reply actions
That’s why it’s easy being a fan, you don’t have a nice public record of all the bad moves you’d have made over the years.
Proud parent of Waldis Joaquin!
this is a good point. Then again, we’re not being paid millions of dollars to make these decisions. If we were, I would think we would put a whole lot more research into our decisions than our present GM does.
No Edgar, it's not your fault, it's the fault of the idiot that plays you
/ The Sabean mutters then shakes the Magic 8 Ball.
Who’s brain did you bring me?
Brain SabeanOranother.
by daveinexile on Dec 18, 2009 12:18 PM PST up reply actions
Well of course, i’m not saying it’s hard for him, just that it’s a easy to be a great armchair GM when you’re not accountable for the decisions you make.
Proud parent of Waldis Joaquin!
Valid point but not exactly relevent. Most of us here us the same screen name year after year and are rather open about when they change handles.Sure some use more sock puppetts than others but the main handles stay active. That is one of the many things the McCoven a good site IMHO.
Who’s brain did you bring me?
Brain SabeanOranother.
by daveinexile on Dec 18, 2009 12:29 PM PST up reply actions
Yeah, we obviously could be held accountable but we never are because none of us are bothered to check or keep track. I bet if i went back through the majority of users comments (including me i’m sure) i could find a whole catalogue of suggestions that would have been terrible.
Proud parent of Waldis Joaquin!
Oh think we do keep track. One of the differences is not many here are arrogant and as a community our reminders of others “fails” are gentler. When one of us get arrogant ( or "loud & proud" if you will) the reminders of fail are more forceful. It also helps that most of us own your screw ups.
Who’s brain did you bring me?
Brain SabeanOranother.
by daveinexile on Dec 18, 2009 12:56 PM PST up reply actions
WHY SABEAN WILL DO NOTHING
His team won 88 last year. He replaced our horrible 2B production with All-Star Freddie Sanchez. He replaces the dessicated corpse of Randy Winn with anyone.
90 wins!
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
-------
PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game currently in early planning stages.
/ peels rubber mask away to reveal the face of Bill Bavasi.
Who’s brain did you bring me?
Brain SabeanOranother.
by daveinexile on Dec 18, 2009 12:26 PM PST up reply actions
You might need to change your sig
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN… UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO’S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
Juan Carlos Perez, please start hitting.
Funny you should mention this.
Heck up tell the end of July I was seriously thinking of changeing my handle. I was ready to come in out exile.Then Sabean went back to be all stupid and took care of that problem for me.
Who’s brain did you bring me?
Brain SabeanOranother.
by daveinexile on Dec 18, 2009 12:32 PM PST up reply actions
the only handle for me is a handle of captain morgans….budoom chi!
Les Plack = more chicks
Dingerz.exe League Champs 2009- The Rile Rods...managed by yours truly.
by Headhunter Rollins on Dec 18, 2009 1:26 PM PST up reply actions
yeah
I’m saving it up until he actually makes a move.
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
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PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game currently in early planning stages.
Lyons just got $15 million from the Astros. I guess it’s all relative.
Not sure what to do about my screen name at this point...
by AngelWillSaveUs on Dec 18, 2009 2:00 PM PST up reply actions
Lyons is coming off a better year than Affeldt was, though.
And only 2 non-closer relievers got more than Affeldt last season.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
Lyon’s FIP last year was 4.06, Affeldt’s in 2008 was 3.66.
Not sure what to do about my screen name at this point...
by AngelWillSaveUs on Dec 18, 2009 3:40 PM PST up reply actions
8M over 2 years.
Chump change.
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
-------
PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game currently in early planning stages.
Holliday and post- Arlington slugging
Not going after him
-Bay
Too expensive
-Beltre
Too expensive for the improvement over Ishi/Bowk
-Damon
Not better than LOLewis
-Hudson
DNW infield musical chairs for a so-so player
-Tejada
DNW period
-Byrd
DNW see pre
-LaRoche
DNW no better than Garko and more expensive
-Branyan
Maybe
-DeRosa
NO
-Delgado
Maybe
-Nady
No better than Bowker or Lewis
Lethargy
It has me
owned by auto-format
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
The fact that Nady is a top-50 free agent just speaks to the utter lack of depth in this group of free agents.
Joe Martinez: You are cool.
When it's all said and done, America will be remembered for three things: The Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
Beltre-Part of the point of my post was that Beltre may not be too expensive when all is said and done. There aren’t many places who need a 3rd basemen left, so if we continue to wait him out maybe he comes down to his actual value.
Damon-His career wOBA is .351 and is coming off a .376 year. Lewis has never had a full season above Damon’s average. Damon is a better player. If he’s worth the difference in money is a different story but he is a better player.
Tejada-He’s not my first choice, but I think a 1 year contract at a reasonable price at 3B could be used. I’d rather watch him bat than Ishi right now.
DeRosa-Same comment as Beltre. I’d rather watch him than Velez.
Also, I wasn’t listing all those that I’d be interested in. Just showing that there are a lot of FA still available and limited places for them to go.
Not sure what to do about my screen name at this point...
by AngelWillSaveUs on Dec 18, 2009 3:36 PM PST up reply actions
Beltre – pushes Pablo to first, greatly decreasing his value. Defense tends to decline significantly after age 30, offense already declined. His agent is Boras, so he’s not taking any deal that doesn’t pay him more than he’s worth.
Damon – a better player than a lot of Giants OFs, but is 36 and just had a good year largely because of the new Yankee Stadium. Coming to AT&T with the right-field fence and Death Valley is going to severely diminish his power. A corner OF with bad defense and no power=DNW.
Tejada – 36, and again pushes Pablo to first. Declining offense, hugely declining defense, basically an older Renteria. And that worked out so well before.
DeRosa – Better than a few Giants, sure, but he doesn’t handle any one position very well, and he’s never been a good hitter outside of 2008.
Basically, none of these guys are significant improvements over what we’ve got on the farm, which is cheaper and has higher potential. Barring a Garko return or an Uggla trade, I’d be for Ishikawa at first and Bowker in left on Opening Day. Maybe one or both of them figures something out and starts putting up the numbers they did in the high minors. If they don’t, we’re only paying them league minimum instead of $7M a year. Really, they’re the same reward with much less risk.
Do not understand
Many here at McCoven use the phrase that a player loses value if he plays a certain position. The example above is that Pablo to first greatly decreasing his value. Is this true because my thought process is:
(Pablo + Beltre) > (Pablo + Current SF 1b) thus making the Giants better
+1
If people were so concerned about maximizing Pablo’s value, they would be clamoring to play him at C, since it is definitely not going to be Posey. Then you could improve both 1B & 3B and get some real hitters in this offense.,
Why isn't Sabean held accountable for leading the Giants into many years of mediocrity???
The problem with this line of thought is that we know it is going to be Posey eventually. So the time we spend sticking Pablo at catcher is time he’s not spending improving his 3B defense. Also, what happens next year when you have two corner infielders on the payroll and Posey ready to play? Play Pablo at SS? Move Posey, but you can’t do that, because you lose the plus D.
It’s best to lock Sandoval into the most favorable long-term relationship now: he should stay at third because Posey has much better defense behind the dish.
Lethargy
It has me
I love Pablo and look forward to Posey
but assuming a competent GM, wouldn’t a catcher that competes for batting titles be pretty valuable in a trade? It’s a nice problem to have, but the Giants apparently now have no catcher at all because Posey will be in Fresno and Pablo will be at 3B or 1B.
And in any event, one injury or predisposition to concussions can turn two catchers to one quickly, like Pablo’s move to 1B last year.
Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."
"I sometimes still can get insider info and I am not a dumb or average fan.
Molina is needed."
by natteringnabob on Dec 18, 2009 10:56 PM PST up reply actions
I gave up on suggesting that
because of the pitchforks and torches that came out every time I suggested it.
Teams try for years to develop All-Star catchers; the Giants have one on the active roster right now. I’m sure Posey will be great once he’s done enjoying all the frankincense and myrrh everyone is laying at his feet, but until then Pablo would be super.
In fact, had he been catching instead of Molina, and some VORPy guy played 3B, wouldn’t that have improved the offense enough to get into the playoffs last year?
Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."
"I sometimes still can get insider info and I am not a dumb or average fan.
Molina is needed."
by natteringnabob on Dec 18, 2009 10:54 PM PST up reply actions
Just for the record I like the idea I just think for the gambit to give resaults both Posey & Panda have to be up and playing on the MLB level. If it is just Panda I think the Giants are risking way too much for way too little gain.
The problem is Catchers get way too beat up ina season so expecting them to hit well in August & SEptember after logging 900+ innings behind th dish is inhuman and they can ussaly only do it for less than a handful of years. Beside Vorpy #b is a bi lke like VORPy SS – not that readily availbile.
Who’s brain did you bring me?
Brain SabeanOranother.
agreed
which is why Pablo should have been catching LAST year, then could have caught the first half/platooned this year. Molina could have been moved last winter or early in the year for some random spare part(s). That would have left 3B to Uribe, which would have been OK although that’s a lot of hindsight as Brain and Bork didn’t seem to give him much chance until Renteria’s wheels fell off.
Having seen Roose Davis and his ilk at third, I don’t mind Pablo there at all, but I still think it’s bizarre to get a great-hitting catcher and then move him elsewhere unless he’s a terrible fielder, and I’ve only seen Pablo play pretty well at C.
Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."
"I sometimes still can get insider info and I am not a dumb or average fan.
Molina is needed."
by natteringnabob on Dec 20, 2009 7:19 AM PST up reply actions
I would love for Pablo to play C, but the BRASS has made it clear that he’s never going to move back now.
I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
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I don’t want Pablo at C because I’m concerned about the toll it would take. If he was fifty pounds lighter, then I’d have no problem with it, but you’ve got to figure catching turns him into Bengie Molina in five years. And Pablo being a 3B opens us up to acquire a 1B, who are typically much better hitters. Moving from 3B to 1B back to 3B is going to really hurt his defense.
He got hurt playing 3B anyway
I’m not so convinced catching for 5 years would ruin him, because I’m not convinced he’s going to look so hot at 3B in 5 years either.
But even assuming that 5 years of catching would turn his bat into Edgardo Alfonso’s, I’m saying he should have been catching last year, and part of this year, with learning 3B put off to now. He’d ultimately have to move, but if the Giants had made the playoffs this year because he played C, that would be just fine by me.
Or maybe he never learns 3B; if they get an Uggla or Beltre or someone else to play 3B Pablo has to move to 1B anyway. I too would like to see a 1B that can hit, but the Giants have been spectacularly incapable of finding one. Pablo’s numbers were pretty good for even a 1B at Mays Field, and I’d take them over Klesko’s, or Ishi’s, or JT’s.
And for all we know Posey could gain weight or blow out an achilles tendon or whatever and be forced to move. Isn’t he going to get beat up catching too? I spend as much time “LOL NO MAJOR LEAGUE EXPERIENCE” as anyone else here, but the truth is the kid hasn’t even played yet and everyone’s pencilling him in as catcher in 2012. If he steps on a sprinkler in Fresno in April he might not be a catcher for the next 5 years either.
I want them both in the lineup and I agree bouncing Pablo around is bad, so he should have been catching until they HAD to move him. Maybe that day never really comes; if he’s such a fragile, unathletic blob maybe he’s out of baseball in a few years anyway and they’ve wasted 5 years of an MVP catcher (he placed 7th at 3B).
Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."
"I sometimes still can get insider info and I am not a dumb or average fan.
Molina is needed."
by natteringnabob on Dec 20, 2009 7:59 AM PST up reply actions
If the Giants are so concerned about Sandoval being injured while catching why wouldn’t they have those same concerns regarding Gerald Posey?
that too
I think they should just get a pitch-back to save on workers’ comp premiums.
Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."
"I sometimes still can get insider info and I am not a dumb or average fan.
Molina is needed."
by natteringnabob on Dec 20, 2009 8:30 AM PST up reply actions
Of course Pablo can get hurt playing 3B; players get hurt on the bench sometimes. But the point is that Pablo weighs upwards of 250 pounds NOW, while Posey is much more athletic, and therefore far less likely to do long-term damage to his knees. Fat guys like Pablo and Bengie end up destroying their legs because they’re squatting with all that weight all the time (why do you think Bengie runs so much slower than everyone, despite only being a little fatter?).
And I don’t buy that Pablo has to move to 1B. I’d say he would have to move off C if we don’t want to ruin his legs (which we don’t), and he plays a decent 3B, which will improve now that he’s lost some weight. Pablo, long-term, can stick at 3B, and that would maximize his value without doing any long-term damage. Therefore I’d say it makes the most sense; yeah, he’d be more valuable as a catcher, but then he wouldn’t be able to run in a few years, and running matters (again, see Bengie Molina). Getting a 1B who can hit is also a lot easier than getting a 3B who can hit (Figgins got 4/36 and we got three cheap years of Ryan Garko for Scott Barnes), so in the long run having Pablo as the solution at third is going to help the team more than having him as the solution at first, and probably more than as the solution at C, because Posey is ready to take that over and I think he’s less likely to injure himself.
The idea is that you can’t make a direct comparison of Beltre’s WAR with Ishikawa’s WAR when measuring the improvement, because Pablo’s WAR decreases by some amount.
Simply by moving to an easier position, Pablo’s production is less valuable because the supply of players who can play that position adequately is higher so the overall level of play at that position is higher.
You would have to compare Beltre’s WAR with Ishikawa’s WAR minus the level by which Pablo is devalued. When you do so, it becomes clear that Beltre is not as big of an improvement as he looks when you don’t take into account the moving of Pablo to an easier position, and he’s not worth the money he will get paid.
Also, Ishi is entering his prime and Beltre is aging, so there is a reasonable chance that in 2011 or 2012, Ishikawa>Beltre. Is that small improvement over a couple of years worth the money he’s asking for? Nope.
Lethargy
It has me
Yeh, I'm meh on all of them.
Sign me up for Holliday at 6/120 or something. We can’t count on having Lincecum, Cain, Madbum, Zito, Sanchez, and Wheeler for all of the next six years. The Win Now window is reopening, and we’re in danger of not learning from the mistake we made in putting too many marginal players around Bonds. We’re building around our repeat Cy Young winner and the rest of the staff, Sandoval, and Posey; Holliday makes the most sense this Winter. Going deep into a few playoffs pays a whole lot of salary.
Proud father of Barry Bonds.
Pass
Holliday ties up way too much money now and in the future. Barring a serious payroll increase, he should not be a target, both because paying him will prevent us from landing other FAs to fill future holes and because we shouldn’t surrender our first-round pick for a guy who won’t automatically put us in the playoffs. If we hadn’t been a really lucky team last year, and if we were one or two wins away from a playoff berth instead of four, Holliday would be a worthwhile acquisition to push us towards the postseason. But the 2010 Giants aren’t necessarily going anywhere, and giving him a contract like that cripples us pretty seriously for when we almost definitely are (2011 and beyond, by which time MadBum should at least be a reliable #2, and Posey is one of the better catchers in the majors).
I'd like to point out
that Nady may very well be no better than Bowker (I like him) or Lewis, but the problem is you’re comparing a starting Nady vs a starting Bowker/Lewis. Nady may be no better, but seeing as Bowker and Lewis wouldn’t start anyways, you’d be getting better-than-velez production rather than Bowker and Lewis. This is, of course, assuming that Nady isn’t immediately benched for not being gritty enough, but he’s been with the Yanks, so he’s definitely got some gamertude…or whatever Sabean calls it.
Hey Fred Lewis, remember Mother's Day?
by anotherbadexcuseguitar on Dec 19, 2009 3:20 AM PST up reply actions
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