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A REAL realistic view of Giants 2010

A REAL Realistic look at the 2010 Giants

 

This post is as follows:  First, my assumptions on the roster and salary projections are provided.  Second, my opinion based on the assumptions made of the roster as it stands is provided by position.  Third, a statement of what I would like to see happen.

 

ASSUMPTIONS

The first assumption for the Giants is that Posey and Bumgarner will start the season in AAA and will be called up in late-May/early June.  Hence, two separate projected line-ups/rotations are provided, a pre call-up and post call-up.

 

The Giants currently have Velez, Torres, Rowand, Bowker, Schierholtz and Lewis in the OF.  I make the assumption that Velez, Torres, Rowand, Bowker and Schierholtz will be retained and Lewis will be traded for non-impact players.  This assumption is based on the fact that Rowand, Schierholtz and Velez are assured of playing time based on comments made by management with Bowker getting a shot at the big-league level leaving Lewis as the odd man out.

 

Uribe will find a starting job elsewhere and the back-up INF position will be filled by Frandsen.  Renteria will fail miserably again but because of his veteran presence will continue to get playing time although it will be in a platoon with Frandsen.

 

Salary projections are also provided and for arbitration eligible players I have err-ed on the higher salary side with Lincecum receiving 10M, Wilson 5M, Garko 4M and Medders 1M.

 

I make the assumption that the Giants will try to stay under 95M for the year.

 

Based on these assumptions, here are the pre and post call-up rosters and lineups for the Giants in 2010:

 

Pre Call-up Roster

 

Post Call-up Roster

Position

Player

2010 Salary

 

Position

Player

2010 Salary

C

Whiteside

0.5

 

C

Posey

0.5

1B

Ishikawa

0.5

 

1B

Ishikawa

0.5

2B

Sanchez

6

 

2B

Sanchez

6

3B

Sandoval

0.6

 

3B

Sandoval

0.6

SS

Renteria

10

 

SS

Renteria

10

LF

Velez

0.5

 

LF

Velez

0.5

CF

Rowand

13.6

 

CF

Rowand

13.6

RF

Bowker

0.5

 

RF

Bowker

0.5

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

SP

Timmy

10

 

SP

Timmy

10

SP

Zito

18.5

 

SP

Zito

18.5

SP

Cain

4.5

 

SP

Cain

4.5

SP

Sanchez

3

 

SP

Sanchez

3

SP

Joe Martinez

0.5

 

SP

Bumgarner

0.5

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

CL

Wilson

5

 

CL

Wilson

5

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

RHP

Romo

0.5

 

RP

Romo

0.5

LHP

Affeldt

4.5

 

RP

Affeldt

4.5

LHP

Runzler

0.5

 

RP

Runzler

0.5

RHP

Medders

1

 

RP

Medders

1

RHP

Valdez

0.5

 

RP

Valdez

0.5

RHP

Joaquin

0.5

 

RP

Joaquin

0.5

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

BN

Garko

4

 

BN

Garko

4

BN

Torres

0.5

 

BN

Torres

0.5

BN

Schierholtz

0.5

 

BN

Schierholtz

0.5

BN

Holm

0.5

 

BN

Whiteside

0.5

BN

Frandsen

0.5

 

BN

Frandsen

0.5

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

87.2

 

 

 

87.2

 

Lineups

Pre Call up

 

Post Call up

RHP

 

LHP

 

 

RHP

 

LHP

 

Velez

LF

Torres

LF

 

Velez

LF

Torres

LF

Renteria

SS

Renteria

SS

 

Renteria

SS

Frandsen

SS

Sanchez

2B

Sanchez

2B

 

Sanchez

2B

Sanchez

2B

Sandoval

3B

Sandoval

3B

 

Sandoval

3B

Sandoval

3B

Bowker

RF

Garko

1B

 

Bowker

RF

Garko

1B

Ishikawa

1B

Schierholtz

RF

 

Posey

C

Posey

C

Rowand

CF

Rowand

CF

 

Ishikawa

1B

Schierholtz

RF

Whiteside

C

Whiteside

C

 

Rowand

CF

Rowand

CF

 

 

The current roster and lineup as stated above remains eerily similar to last year’s inept lineup and is possibly even worse. 

 

The LF platoon of Velez/Torres at the top of the lineup has a career OBP of 305/290 respectively; Broken down with their respective splits of Velez against RHP and Torres against LHP:  312/330 – Below league average.  Did I mention Torres’ career K% of 25%?

 

CF Rowand will be Rowand.  He will bat 3rd for the 1 month that he gets hot and bat 8th the rest of the year.

 

RF Whether Bowkermania will translate to the big league level remains to be seen.  We should get average to above average pop with the platoon of Bowker/Schierholtz with very good defense.

 

1B—The Garko/Ishikawa platoon will put up JT Snow numbers.  .280/20/85.  League average.

 

2B--Freddy Sanchez will put up his usual line of 300/330/440 and 85/10/80.  Batting 3rd!

 

3B--Panda will rake.  Mark my words: He will break the single-season record for doubles with no runners on base.

 

SS Renteria will suck and Frandsen will – well, get some playing time?  I assume he will be Sanchez-lite.

 

C  Excellent defense prior to the call up.  Whiteside will call 5 no-hitters prior to the all-star break; 2 by Timmy and 1 each by the others not named Joe Martinez.  Posey should bat 5th by September, a 4 month line of .280/15/65 is what I expect.

 

Bench—Given all the platoons, everybody should get playing time.  But the lack of INF depth is concerning given the injury risk to Sanchez, Frandsen, Renteria and to a certain degree Sandoval--the next in line would be Rohlinger/Downs.  Bocock!

 

Rotation—Hands down the best rotation in baseball.  But the concern here again is the depth.  If an injury were to occur, can we tolerate a full season of Joe Martinez/Ryan Sadowski/Pucetas?

 

Bullpen—We should replicate the success of 2009 with much less occurrences of walk off HRs for obvious reasons.

 

 

The realistic view?  Based on my assumptions, we only have 8M to spend, we will not get a Jason Bay/Matt Holliday though management will make it seem as though they are to appease the fans.  The lack of depth in the pitching staff will not open up much on the trade front either, so no Carl Crawford.  Management’s love of Rowand’s grit and the discrepancy in contract terms = no Bradley. 

 

But all is not lost. Given the strength of our pitching, we only need an average offense we can only afford an average offense.  The biggest concern I have with our line up is at the top.  We will play small ball but it will be tough if we don’t have the personnel to actually get on base.  

 

 

What are our options?

 

There aren’t a lot of options on where we can upgrade given payroll considerations. 2B, SS, 3B, CF are locked down. 

 

My opinion of what a Garko/Ishikawa can produce at 1B provides great value for the 4.5M salary and it means it is also locked down.  Possible free agent acquisitions could be Nick Johnson, Adam LaRoche, Delgado and Blalock.  All would cost more than 4.5M and downgrade the defense.  Nick Johnson here is the intriguing possibility and is discussed below.

 

OF  Possible options here include Jason Bay, Matt Holliday, Vladimir Gurerrero, Jermaine Dye.  Given my assumptions, neither is a possibility and would create another clusterfuck that was the Giants OF 2009.  An intriguing possibility here is Coco Crisp who is coming off of double rotator cuff surgery and could provide very good value

 

C  Countdown for Posey 2010 begins……Now.

 

What I think we should do.

 

There are 3 positions that we can/need to upgrade: LF, possibly 1B and SP depth. 

 

Nick Johnson can provide a top of the order presence and has the ability to get on base in front of Pablo.  So does Coco Crisp and he plays excellent defense in LF/CF and can come on the cheap.  We have a need to add to the starting pitching depth and gain a valuable trading chip at the trading deadline.

 

Hence I propose 3 options but we only have the ability to do 2.  Perhaps we could do all 3 if Lincecum get 8M instead of 10M.

1.  Sign Nick Johnson for 2yr/15M (reasonable?).  This should be competitive with the offers he should receive given his injury risk.  If we were to sign Nick Johnson, we would need to trade Garko so we don’t create another clusterfuck at 1st and it will free up about 4M in salary. (Perhaps for an SP?)

2.  Sign Coco Crisp.  Fangraphs has his value at 5M but he should come a bit cheaper.  This also allows Rowand to perhaps shift to LF and Crisp to play CF, making our OF defense that much better.

3. Sign Brad Penny 1yr/$5.5M with a club option for 2011.  This strengthens our pitching staff and provides much needed depth.  If he can replicate the success he had in 2009 at AT&T, we will be golden.  This also gives us a large trade chip at the trading deadline (whether it be Sanchez or Penny )to possibly upgrade the offense since he can be replaced with Bumgarner.

 

DFA Torres or something to free up roster space and Velez becomes super utility 2B/OF, speed off bench.

Lineup:

Pre Call up Post Call up
RHP LHP RHP LHP
Crisp LF/CF Crisp LF/CF Crisp LF/CF Crisp LF/CF
Sanchez 2B Sanchez 2B Sanchez 2B Sanchez 2B
Nick Johnson 1B Nick Johnson 1B Nick Johnson 1B Nick Johnson 1B
Sandoval 3B Sandoval 3B Sandoval 3B Sandoval 3B
Bowker RF Rowand LF/CF Bowker RF Posey C
Rowand LF/CF Schierholtz RF Posey C Schierholtz RF
Renteria SS Renteria SS Rowand LF/CF Rowand LF/CF
Whiteside C Whiteside C Renteria SS Frandsen SS

 

LF/CF

2B

1B

This FanPost is reader-generated, and it does not necessarily reflect the views of McCovey Chronicles. If the author uses filler to achieve the minimum word requirement, a moderator may edit the FanPost for his or her own amusement.

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Woah!

Giant Dirtbags: John Bowker, Steve Hammond. MIA List: Todd Jennings, Brian Anderson
Jeremy Affeldt induces DP's

by Giant among Angels on Nov 7, 2009 3:31 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

All kinds of formatting goofiness on this one.

Joe Martinez: You are cool.
When it's all said and done, America will be remembered for three things: The Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.

by cornball on Nov 7, 2009 3:39 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

This is amazing, It's like being on drugs!

My Will Clark will kick your honor student's ass!

by jbowl on Nov 7, 2009 3:40 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

bad drugs

by Merope on Nov 7, 2009 8:53 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I think you broke the internet.

I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
Mr. F! | comics | art | New Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory

by Natto on Nov 7, 2009 3:43 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

much

Giant Dirtbags: John Bowker, Steve Hammond. MIA List: Todd Jennings, Brian Anderson
Jeremy Affeldt induces DP's

by Giant among Angels on Nov 7, 2009 3:51 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Cool

Now it’s all snazzy looking.

I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
Mr. F! | comics | art | New Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory

by Natto on Nov 7, 2009 3:52 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

If we have an outfield of Crisp/Rowand/Bowker I’d rather have Crisp in RF and Bowker in LF.

We're all basically Pedro Feliz.

by SF Pete on Nov 7, 2009 4:02 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

I’d rather have Crisp in CF, Rowand in LF and Bower/Schierholtz in RF

by velvadp on Nov 7, 2009 4:04 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Do you think Bowker is a better outfielder than Rowand?

We're all basically Pedro Feliz.

by SF Pete on Nov 7, 2009 4:47 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Really, I guess, I just want to have Schierholtz in RF when he plays. Coco Crisp in CF. After that I don’t really care.

by velvadp on Nov 7, 2009 5:58 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

You just can’t possibly put Bowker in RF in AT&T. Can’t do it. And really, last year’s platoon splits aside, I’m not sure I see the wisdom of a Bowker/Schierholtz platoon. You’re deciding on the basis of 58 ABs that Nate’s the ultra-rare reverse platoon hitter — much better against LHP than RHP. I’d say that’s a dangerous assumption. Also, if you’re platooning them in a single defensive position (RF or LF, say) then you end up significantly weakening the team defense putting Bowker in RF, or you fail to take advantage of Nate’s biggest value by putting him in LF.

My Bucardo is better than yours.

A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.

by Roger on Nov 8, 2009 6:32 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Schierholtz certainly seems to be that “ultra-rare reverse platoon hitter.” In 98 major league PA’s against lefties, he has hit .387 and put up a 1.010 OPS, compared to .259 and .664 against righties. I realize that is still a small sample size, but that big of a variance is unlikely to be a fluke.

If you watch him hit, he has one major flaw: He cannot lay off the breaking pitch at his back leg (he actually swung at two pitches that hit his leg last year if I recall correctly.) This flaw in his approach is only an issue against righties. A lefty pitcher can’t throw this pitch, which explains Nate’s success against LHP’s.

I would be willing to bet good money that he hit better against lefties in the minor leagues also. I tried to find his minor league splits, but wasn’t able to do so. If anyone knows where to find them, that would be great.

Fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life, son

by lincecuminyourface on Nov 9, 2009 9:42 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

minorleaguesplits.com

You would’ve lost money had you made that bet.

career v. LHP: .284/.340/.477

career v. RHP: .313/.354/.527

Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all

McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.

GET THAT VORP AND WHIP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!

by baetown415 on Nov 9, 2009 10:49 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Wow that really surprised me. Perhaps he had more success against righties in the minors because minor league pitchers do not scout opposing hitters as much as big leaguers do and thus weren’t aware of his weakness, and also I’m sure a lot of minor league RHP’s don’t have the ability to throw the curveball at the back leg. Another thing I noticed was that Nate’s BA against lefties improved each year, so maybe his superior ability against lefties was a recent development. I still believe that until Nate learns how to lay off that breaking ball, he will be better at hitting lefties than righties.

On a different note, thanks for providing the statistics baetown. Cool website, I appreciate it

Fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life, son

by lincecuminyourface on Nov 9, 2009 12:59 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

the lesson to be learned really is, any MLB player can do just about anything with 100 abs

Please hit better, Randy Winn.

by oldjacket on Nov 10, 2009 12:51 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Needs more Rowand for Bradley.

Thing A

by sam23 on Nov 7, 2009 4:15 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

I am almost positive that Lewis will not be traded.

WHY IS BOCOCK?!

by Lars The Wanderer on Nov 7, 2009 4:15 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Non-tendered?

Matt Cain: throwing complete game shutouts since 06'. No big deal.

by cain1rstballothof on Nov 7, 2009 9:06 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Breaking News:

the Giants send Fred Lewis and cash to the Dodgers for nothing in return.

#1 threat to America: Pandas
Also, Tim Lincecum
Adopted Father: Tyler Graham
Official McPokeMaster
Registered Velezbian and supporter of Fredemption

by GrahamCrakalaka on Nov 8, 2009 1:02 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

ah

the old Rajai Davis gambit. Hopefully Dave Roberts won’t be signed again as the replacement.

Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."

Nobody puts Bengie in a corner!

by natteringnabob on Nov 8, 2009 6:50 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Scott Podsednik

"It's too late now."

by ResDog on Nov 8, 2009 6:32 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Well, it’s long enough to win the Nobel prize.

I guess I’ll read it now.

Please hit better, Randy Winn.

by oldjacket on Nov 7, 2009 4:24 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

I’m not into Crisp, but I will say this: you clearly aren’t huffing any paint fumes – which is nice in a rosterbation post.

Please hit better, Randy Winn.

by oldjacket on Nov 7, 2009 4:27 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Intentionally Over Estimating Player Cost Guarantees That You Have Under Estimated Dollars Available

With regards to the players under long term contracts you have made the mistake of using figures that split the signing bonus money evenly across the entire contract rather then reflect the years in which these payments are actually made. As a result you have overstated Rowand’s, Renteria’s, Affeldt’s, and Cain’s 2010 dollars by $1.6M, , $1M, $.5M, and $.25M respectively for a total overstatement of $3.35M.

With regards to arbitration awards you have over estimated all except for Medders. My best guess is that the total arbitration awards for Lincecum, Wilson, Sanchez and Garko are morst likely to be $17M which is $5M less then the $22M you have estimated.

Finally, using $.5M rather then $.4M as the minumum for pre arbitration players results in an unnecesary overstatement of the cost for 12 of these players of $1.2M. In total you have overstated the cost of this roster by amost $10M which is enough to add a significant bat.

by giantsrainman on Nov 7, 2009 4:35 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

I’m okay with most of this, except Bumgarner should be spending the year in the minors and may be a starter in 2011. 2010 is too soon; the kid’s barely 20 and I’d rather have more than two months of evidence to support the “velocity has returned” theory. And Torres>Velez, so if we’re going to DFA anyone it should be Eugenio.

I’m also very much on the Nick Johnson bandwagon; if we can get him and trade Garko that’s going to leave us in a much better position than a year ago. Penny is a good signing if he’s willing to take small amounts of money; otherwise he’s not worth it.

But overall, this is pretty realistic and likely not far from what will happen (no huge moves/signings, almost the same team as last year, a similar record as last year).

by quincy0191 on Nov 7, 2009 5:08 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Bumgarner should be up after the break if we are “in this thing”. I think he should definitely spend the first half in AAA, but baring any serious setbacks, he should be brought up after the break. Unless they sign a #5, which I really hope they don’t. Marinez/Pucetas/Sadowski should be able to get er done until the break, but after that it’s gotta be Madbum, unless we’re way out of it.

Matt Cain: throwing complete game shutouts since 06'. No big deal.

by cain1rstballothof on Nov 7, 2009 6:08 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

That number five triumvirate you have assembled might “get er done until the break” for another team, but not for the woeful Giants’ offense. I hope the Giants’ do sign a Penny type as their fifth starter this off season, because the team just doesn’t score enough for anything other than a quality starter at every rotation spot.

No Edgar, it's not your fault, it's the fault of the idiot that plays you

by rxmeister on Nov 8, 2009 7:12 AM PST up reply actions   1 recs

Yeah, sad to say, but that triumvirate looks to me like “write every 5th game off.” Of course we weren’t that far off the same last year. Prior to Penny joining the team the team was 7-17 in games started by the 5th spot in the rotation (Sanchez/Sadowski/Martinez). In the games started by Sadowski and Martinez in the period between Johnson’s final game and Penny’s first we were 2-7, allowing 65 runs in those 9 games. And not only did they lose, they frequently got knocked out early, chewing up the bullpen for the rest of the rotation. Joey Martinez, who I really view as the best of that group by a lot, was quite simply pounded into submission last year by every conceivable form of measurement.

My Bucardo is better than yours.

A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.

by Roger on Nov 8, 2009 9:28 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Lucky for us there should be a fair amount of reclamation project arms on the market this winter and this front office seems fairly adept at choosing pitchers with at least a couple months left in the MLB on their arms.

Who’s brain did you bring me?
Brain SabeanOranother.

by daveinexile on Nov 8, 2009 10:48 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Hopefully the offense will be upgradedthough, otherwise you are all correct.

Matt Cain: throwing complete game shutouts since 06'. No big deal.

by cain1rstballothof on Nov 8, 2009 11:10 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

At this point our best hope for Offensive upgrade might be less horrid line up construction.

Removing 487 PA’s of .283 OBP out of the #4 hole of Molinia should help.

Removing 192 PA’s of .277 OBP from the #3 and 112 PA’s of .295 OBP in the #1 spot ( we could argue how easy it will be to upgrade on 126 PA’s of .328 OBP in the #2 hole) of Winn should also help.

 Along with removing 303 PA’s of 290 OBP from the #2 spot (Renteria will either bounce back some or be relegated to the bottom 1/3 with the non hot Rowand).

These 3 moves might be more signifant then they would at first appear.

Who’s brain did you bring me?
Brain SabeanOranother.

by daveinexile on Nov 8, 2009 11:30 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Erik Bedard

FIVE YEARS, $60 MILLION!

You wish you were named Frederick Deshaun...

by dregarx on Nov 8, 2009 11:21 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

/ face palm

Who’s brain did you bring me?
Brain SabeanOranother.

by daveinexile on Nov 8, 2009 11:31 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Actually, if he comes cheap (<$3 mil for 1 year) he might not be a horrible guy to look at. Even a half-season’s worth of #2 starting has good value.

You wish you were named Frederick Deshaun...

by dregarx on Nov 8, 2009 12:09 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

True. But my faith on them doing something like the later instead of the closer to the former is extremely thin now days.

Who’s brain did you bring me?
Brain SabeanOranother.

by daveinexile on Nov 8, 2009 12:40 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

The idea of an eerily Rowand-like contract to a pitcher with a glass arm is haunting, innit?

You wish you were named Frederick Deshaun...

by dregarx on Nov 8, 2009 3:39 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I prefer fantasy views.
Velez as starting LF will give me nightmares all winter. Hopefully it lasts as long as the Ortmeier thing.

by DesertFox on Nov 7, 2009 5:14 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Oh this looks gross, very realistic though

Chris Dominguez: Bringing dingerz back to The Bay (In a while)
SCIENCE

by CB30 on Nov 7, 2009 5:32 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

No Crisp. Garko needs to start everyday except when he’s tired, if the Giants do not sign another 1B. Ishii should only be a defensive replacement. If winter ball and Meulens can help Bowker I’d like to see him play RF with Torres, and hopefully see Bay in LF. Velez can be a 2B/OF utility guy until Franchez goes down. Posey should start, he’s gotta do it sometime, why not save money and let him play, he’s got more upside than anyone on the offense in a position that is unfilled, why wait.

Matt Cain: throwing complete game shutouts since 06'. No big deal.

by cain1rstballothof on Nov 7, 2009 6:13 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Why don't we give up on Frandsen he sucks balls

There are no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq Chuck Norris lives in Texas

by Mike Fox on Nov 7, 2009 6:48 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

+2

but oh, whatever shall the Frandsenberry Kool-Aid kids do without him?

Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."

Nobody puts Bengie in a corner!

by natteringnabob on Nov 8, 2009 6:51 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I’m sorry, but I say NO to any incremental upgrades, so no Crisp, Johnson, LaRoche, etc. The acquistion of Sanchez and Garko illustrates the futility of those moves. Either sign a difference maker or let the guys the Giant have play, and write off this season. I’m good with either Bay or Holiday, but Bay seems to be the most likely.

I’m good with a Garko / Ishikawa platoon for now, only if it means they make the serious upgrade in the outfield. Valez has relatively no value as a everyday left fielder. Honestly, he hurts the team just as much or more out there in left field as he does a second. At least his great range at second makes up (a little) for some routine-play gaffs. Besides, the Giant need a middle-of-the-order power bat in left. So, yes, if the Giants start the season with Valez in left this team is no real contender.

When it comes down to it the ownership group needs to weigh how much a contender will cost them – pay a few more million over the assumed budget to build a potential contender in 2010, or see if one or two of the young hitters can step it up a notch and build for 2011 and beyond.

by RUSirius on Nov 7, 2009 6:49 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

I agree with your premise but question you grouping Nick Johnson in with the rest.

 An OBP over 400 is very, very good thing. Yes, he should be viewed asa short term “band aid” for 1 maybe 2 seasons but putting that kind of an OBP in front of Panda should go a long ways to creating runs in the 90 -110 games Johnson appears in.

Who’s brain did you bring me?
Brain SabeanOranother.

by daveinexile on Nov 8, 2009 10:53 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Can’t picture the Giants breaking camp with a catching corps of Whiteside and Holm. Assuming they’d need to do this because Posey isn’t ready (and there’s no indication he will be) if one of them gets injured the organization would simply have nothing left. Sandoval is done playing catcher except in dire emergencies.

Expect the Giants to sign a mediocre veteran catcher to a cheap 1+1 deal.

Fred Lewis can stand under my umbrella.
31 May 2007, 21:38 EST - the last time Matteh's career W-L wasn't below .500
We are at war with Los Angeles. We have always been at war with Los Angeles.
Lowering the Quality of Internet Discourse Since 1985™

by S.F. Giangst on Nov 7, 2009 7:31 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Rainman's View

As of right now the Giants have just about $54M in 2010 committed to six players signed to multiyear contracts (Zito-$18.5M, Rowand-$12M, Rentria-$9M, F.Sanchez-$6M, Cain-$4.25M, Affeldt-$4M). As of right now the Giants can expect to spend about $18M on the 5 players eligable for arbitration (Lincecum, Wilson, J.Sanchez, Garko, Medders). As of right now the Giants can expect to spend about $6M on the 14 pre arbitration players needed to fill out the 25 man roster. This means that as things stand now the Giants should plan on their current roster costing them about $78M.

In my view there are three questions the Giants need to answer from the above starting point before they decide how to proceed:

1) How far away from being a true competitor for a NL Playoff spot is the above roster?
2) What is it going to cost in dollars and/or trade talent to eliminate this gap?
3) Is it affordable to pay the cost needed to eliminate this gap before opening day 2010 or does it make more sense to do this in steps where some of the gap is closed now but the rest is closed at the trade deadline or next offseason?

In my view the answers to these questions are as follows:
1) The roster as currently constructed is about an 84 win team leaving this roster about 6 wins away from being a true competitor for a NL Playoff spot.
2) 6 Wins typically costs $27M on the free agent market but in today’s economy might be available for around $22M if you spend wisely. 6 Wins on the trade market costs alot and I would guess the price would start at Posey and Bumgarner plus the dollars needed to pay for the players you aquire.
3) I believe the Giants can afford to raise the payroll to $100M allowing them to spend $22M trying to buy these 6 wins now. In fact, in my view if they don’t do this they are telling us they really don’t care about truely competing but rather only care about pretending to compete to keep butts in the seats. With regards to trading for these 6 wins my view is that the trades required would reduce the teams ability to compete in 2011 and beyond and therefore should be avoided.

by giantsrainman on Nov 7, 2009 7:56 PM PST reply actions   2 recs

Interesting numbers, good theory. Avoid trading any pitching, and up the damn payroll. They’ve got money, the real question is are they in it to win it, or are they in it for a profit only? Bay or Holliday would really make a big difference and show that ownership wants to win. I hope they pony up and don’t waste this pitching one season more.

Matt Cain: throwing complete game shutouts since 06'. No big deal.

by cain1rstballothof on Nov 7, 2009 9:16 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

This ownership has proven that they are happy if the ONLY contend.

"All I know is right now, you comeback and do you dwell on that? I think you're man enough to take it, you're man enough to chew on it, to spit it out and you learn from it. ... I think winners let it go. I think losers dwell on it and talk about it all week and that screws you up for the next opportunity going forward." - Mike Singletary after the 49ers loss to the Vikings

by SFGuy on Nov 7, 2009 9:25 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Sadly true to this point. Maybe this is the offseason something changes?

Matt Cain: throwing complete game shutouts since 06'. No big deal.

by cain1rstballothof on Nov 7, 2009 9:41 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I wouldn’t hold my breath.

Rafael Rodriguez: #8 on our list, tearing up Scottsdale, and has been alive long enough to see the Warriors make the playoffs once.

by BrianBokake on Nov 8, 2009 2:27 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Agree - Have to Boost Payroll to Win!

This is especially true in light of the Zito, Rowand, and Renteria situations. Given the amount of payroll those three absorb relative to their respective performances, you can’t stand pat on a payroll number and expect to win. This is more true now that Lincecum will no longer be super cheap. Thus, $80-$90 million may seem like plenty, but when you lay it out in terms of what is available to spend, they have to get closer to $100 million to field a contender. That could mean trading for Fielder or going out and getting Holliday.

Another thought I’ve had is whether it made sense to have a payroll in the $70-$80 million range when you are supposedly rebuilding. Why not tear it down and save the money for later. That is the fact that Sabean wants us to ignore as he takes credit for last year’s performance. It really wasn’t a rebuilding year in the way that sets you up for more success. Maybe it made sense with regard to keeping fans around (and the revenue that comes with that), but I’m not sure.

by ErodCal on Nov 9, 2009 9:38 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

this is a very sensible post

especially from GRM. The one flaw is – I don’t think there are 6 wins available on the FA market for ANY $$ price.
Matt Holiday is probably close to +6, but you have to deduct 2 WAR from whatever OF he replaces.

Maybe Holliday and Nick Johnson together would squeak you into +6 WAR. But who else are you going to replace? Renteria? Good luck. The reason we have Renteria is that good shortstops are basically unavailable. Maybe you can snag a win or two in relief pitching…

FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
-------
PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game currently in early planning stages.

by zenbitz on Nov 9, 2009 1:28 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Do You Really Think It Is Reasonalbe To Expect 2 WAR From Our Current Weakest OF Starter Or Platoon?

I do think it is reasonalbe to expect this from the top two but I would bet that we will get closer to just 1 WAR from the weakest with our current options. In my View Matt Holliday should be the Giants number one off season target as he alone should add close to 5 WAR when compared to those who’s playing time his would be replacing. If we got him we would just need to find just a little more then 1 WAR somewhere in the bargin ben.

by giantsrainman on Nov 9, 2009 2:40 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I agree with GRM that our weakest OF is probably a 1 WAR player (at least that’s what i’d count on) so Holiday could be 5 win upgrade. Cameron has been a 4 WAR player the last 2 years so he could possibly be a 3 win upgrade. Johnson/LaRoche/Branyan are probably around 1.5 win increases. Doubt we’ll get much improvement out of other positions aside from those and the 5th starter. We’re currently replacement level at that position and so picking up a starter who performs decently could net us another couple of wins.

Proud parent of Waldis Joaquin!

by GiantFan on Nov 11, 2009 3:29 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Pitching, Pitching and more Pitching

Still a bit concerned about the pitching. Lincecum and Cain pitched well and expect them to continue to pitch well in 2010. Zito seemed to improved in 2009. Sanchez is still erratic and the 5th spot is up for grabs.

The success of 2009 can be directly traced to the performance of the pitching staff.

by wilriv21 on Nov 7, 2009 9:07 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Didn’t get past MadBum/Posey in the minors. Not gonna happen.

by positiveuphemism on Nov 7, 2009 10:23 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Bumgarner should at the very least start the year in the minors. Posey needs to be the Opening Day catcher.

by quincy0191 on Nov 7, 2009 10:33 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

tThe Giants made their 2010 intentions regarding Posey perfectly clear in Sep 2009 when they brought him up and chained him to the bull pen. He will not be brought up prior to July 31 UNLESS he absolutely rakes in Fresno and our short term option (name presently unknown) is hitting 220

by allfrank on Nov 7, 2009 11:04 PM PST up reply actions   1 recs

I don’t know how you can say what’s going to happen in April 2010 given it’s November 2009. Or do you have inside information, like when Sabean said there is absolutely no way they were calling up Posey or Bumgarner for the stretch run last year?

There are plenty of scenarios that have Posey as the Opening Day catcher, and his call-up means he’ll either be starting Opening Day or won’t get called up until he’s spent two months in the minors. I’d say it’s more likely he’s starting Opening Day, because the alternate options are either too expensive to play half a season or not good enough to be a starter.

by quincy0191 on Nov 8, 2009 1:11 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

It sounds like you are in my mind. Though I think the Bochey threshold is the 25 man catchers are batting below 200. Are you ready for 1000+ innings of Olivia?

Who’s brain did you bring me?
Brain SabeanOranother.

by daveinexile on Nov 8, 2009 10:58 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

+1

Matt Cain: throwing complete game shutouts since 06'. No big deal.

by cain1rstballothof on Nov 7, 2009 11:06 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

agreeing with Quincy here,

Matt Cain: throwing complete game shutouts since 06'. No big deal.

by cain1rstballothof on Nov 7, 2009 11:07 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Interesting and original.

by Dan from NM on Nov 7, 2009 10:34 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

needs more MIKE CAMERON

Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster

by jponry on Nov 7, 2009 11:32 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

at $8 mil for 1 year? que bueno

Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all

McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.

GET THAT VORP AND WHIP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!

by baetown415 on Nov 7, 2009 11:35 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I like Cameron, but I’m surprised to see so much support around here for him. How can you complain about Sabean’s penchant for signing older veterans and then advocate signing Mike Cameron? If he gets hurt in May, it’s not going to be pretty for Sabean around here. I don’t think Sabean is looking for a CF anyway.

No Edgar, it's not your fault, it's the fault of the idiot that plays you

by rxmeister on Nov 8, 2009 7:19 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Have you learned nothing rx? Sabes is always looking for a CF. Having 4 or 5 of them around is no deterrent.

My Bucardo is better than yours.

A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.

by Roger on Nov 8, 2009 9:08 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I don’t think Sabean is looking for a CF anyway.

Which is why this plan needs more Rowand for Bradley. In my rosterbation fantasy Cameron and Bradley are linked. (that sounds grosser than I intended it too)

Thing A

by sam23 on Nov 8, 2009 10:06 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

The sad facts are:

1) Cameron , by just doing what he has done, would be makeing outs at the 3rd slowest rate on the team.

2) Even If he is a corner OF his glove would still help our fly ball orientated staff.

3) His recent contracts have been 1 year, 1 & an option type so he would be a short term commitment.

4) He has had exactly one contract that paid him more than $8MM a season.

Over all I don’t love the idea but it does have enough to merit it that I can understand such a move. If I work from the presumption the Lewis will never see the Field as a Giant for more then a couple hundred innings then starting the season with Bowker in LF, Rowand in Cf, and Cameron in Rf and Nate spelling players and pinch hitting does not repell me. Chain Torress to mostly Cf time and replace Velez with something useful either in the INF and/or off the bench and I can get downright chummy with the idea.

Who’s brain did you bring me?
Brain SabeanOranother.

by daveinexile on Nov 8, 2009 11:14 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I like Cameron because he’s been a very consistent player. He’s also old, which means I wouldn’t give him more than a one year deal (maybe two if there’s a steep discount per year). But he’s been an above-average hitter and defender pretty much his entire career, and that’s the kind of veteran you want to sign. If he has a down season, it’s an anomaly; this is different from Freddy Sanchez.

by quincy0191 on Nov 8, 2009 1:43 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I don’t mind older veterans who can play good defense at a premium position, draw walks and have good power.

Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all

McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.

GET THAT VORP AND WHIP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!

by baetown415 on Nov 8, 2009 9:25 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Digression

So you view him as Cf in the NL West despite he last couple years in SD? I only ask because you mentioned a premium position.

Who’s brain did you bring me?
Brain SabeanOranother.

by daveinexile on Nov 9, 2009 8:33 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I do

Not that I’m ignoring those years but I still think his career and recent performance are both better indicators that he can still be a plus CF (~5 runs above average), even in the NL West.

Plus the fans love him wherever he goes.

Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all

McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.

GET THAT VORP AND WHIP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!

by baetown415 on Nov 9, 2009 10:57 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I think they'll sign a catcher..

For one year though.

And I’m skeptical about them even giving Bowker a shot.

But for the most part.. I think you got it right.

And I hope they trade Lewis.
He deserves better than what the Giants have to offer him.

by AmorVincitOmnia on Nov 7, 2009 11:42 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Coco Crisp?

Really?

"The BB's are out. The BB's are being arseholes to me." - Brian Wilson.

by hairball on Nov 9, 2009 10:23 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

I thought the same thing

But… he should be pretty cheap and would probably be at least close to a league-average hitter. If the vaunted RowandForBradley were to come to fruition, it wouldn’t be such a bad idea. I don’t see much point if Rowand’s still on the team, though.

by taliesin on Nov 9, 2009 12:38 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

What Would Be The Point?

We have plenty of 2 WAR outfielders that do not require free agent contracts.

by giantsrainman on Nov 9, 2009 12:52 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Who?

And you can’t say Fred Lewis, because he’s not allowed to play. Schierholtz and Bowker might be that good, but they might not. Velez certainly won’t. And none of those guys, with the possible exception of Schierholtz, can play CF.

by taliesin on Nov 9, 2009 3:41 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I Beleive We Will 2+ WAR Production From Two Of Our Outfield Positions

It may take a platoon in one but we already have the talent. The third positon is more problematic and might be more likely to be closer to 1 WAR. That said, marginally upgrading this by a single WAR with the likes of Coco Crisp would be a waste of dollars. We need to be finding ways to get more then a sigle WAR in improvement for every $6M (what I think Crisp will cost) additional we spend. As I see it we need to improve relative to those we are replacing (not just relative to replacement level) by more the 1 WAR for every $4M we spend.

by giantsrainman on Nov 9, 2009 4:02 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Hmm, I think Crisp will be signed for closer to $4M than $6M (in fact I was thinking $3M), but if he did cost $6M then I freely admit that would not be a useful signing.

by taliesin on Nov 10, 2009 7:04 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Coco Crisp probably isn’t a 2 WAR player either (been worth 1.9 WAR over the last 2 years) If he was a 2 WAR player he could provide a slight upgrade over our weakest OF position but as a 1 WAR player he’s likely no better than the players we already have.

Proud parent of Waldis Joaquin!

by GiantFan on Nov 11, 2009 3:32 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I like the idea of signing Cameron to a one-year deal

Why not sign Cameron to a one-year deal and play him in CF and move Rowand to LF. Sure, Rowand’s bat won’t play there, but his defense should be outstanding and make those folks afraid to watch Fred Lewis or Eugenio Velez feel a lot better. The reality is that although Lewis or Bowker have the potential to be 2 WAR OF, if things stand pat, it will be Velez getting the early PT in LF. I don’t think Velez is a 2 WAR OF, and his defense scares me far more than Lewis’. Thus, Cameron in CF and Rowand in LF would work better in my opinion.

by ErodCal on Nov 9, 2009 1:23 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Lewis is a 2 WAR outfielder...

If he’s allowed to play full-time

I wouldn’t mind Cameron in center and a Rowand/Fred platoon in left.

Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all

McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.

GET THAT VORP AND WHIP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!

by baetown415 on Nov 9, 2009 1:58 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

/tries to imagine the world in which Bochy would platoon Rowand with Lewis

by taliesin on Nov 9, 2009 3:43 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

/cries because no such world exists

Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all

McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.

GET THAT VORP AND WHIP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!

by baetown415 on Nov 9, 2009 4:20 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Surely it’d make more sense to move Rowand to RF instead and that way you get to keep Lewis in the lineup as well.

Proud parent of Waldis Joaquin!

by GiantFan on Nov 11, 2009 3:35 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I really wish Grant would try and do an interview with Freddy Lewis, and try to get to the bottom of Bochy/Sabean’s hatred towards him. It makes no sense.

Matt Cain: throwing complete game shutouts since 06'. No big deal.

by cain1rstballothof on Nov 9, 2009 4:41 PM PST reply actions   0 recs


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