Lukewarm Stove: Trades, Transactions, and Troster Trideas.
by Natto on Nov 5, 2009 11:52 AM PST
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PrintOK, now that we've got that World Series thing out of the way, we can get to the real action. Someone suggested making a thread to collect rosterbation ideas/transactions, so that we won't be flooded with redundant Fanposts. Of course, actual signings by the Giants are fair game, and if you put some thought and research into a good idea for a Fanpost, you're more than welcome to make one. This is more for those random off-the-cuff ideas or "what could have been" ones. For example, the White Sox just traded for Mark Teahen on the Royals. We could talk about that, I guess. But I don't think anyone wants to. So, uh, let's goooooooo!
This FanPost is reader-generated, and it does not necessarily reflect the views of McCovey Chronicles. If the author uses filler to achieve the minimum word requirement, a moderator may edit the FanPost for his or her own amusement.
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ACQUIRE A MORNEAU-TYPE HITTER
Giant Dirtbags: John Bowker, Steve Hammond. MIA List: Todd Jennings, Brian Anderson
Jeremy Affeldt induces DP's
by Giant among Angels on Nov 5, 2009 12:18 PM PST up reply actions
GIANTS BRASS!!!
Idolizing Robb Nen since 2002...
by Smoke on the Water on Nov 5, 2009 4:32 PM PST up reply actions
KANE 4 FELDER!
Joe Martinez: You are cool.
When it's all said and done, America will be remembered for three things: The Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
/prepares for this post to be ignored and flooded with 100 individual fanpost a week on trading for Werth/Upton/Fielder
say hey nation is the Ralph Nader of McC.-Xanthan
dammit
Giant Dirtbags: John Bowker, Steve Hammond. MIA List: Todd Jennings, Brian Anderson
Jeremy Affeldt induces DP's
by Giant among Angels on Nov 5, 2009 12:18 PM PST up reply actions
McSweeney's is doing a newspaper.
My son is Madison Bumgarner, the Spacebat of pitching prospects. My other son is a Porsche.
Whoa
I went to high school with one of the writers they mention.
GROUGTHINK ALERT
The first Chester Arthur fanboy ever.
It’s Stephen King, isn’t it?
Context, people. More context is good. Less context is bad. If you're willing to be reductive, then you're willing to be wrong.
by howtheyscored on Nov 5, 2009 12:41 PM PST up reply actions
which one?
My friend Nick St. John will be contributing comics to it, but he’s not teh famous.
Please hit better, Randy Winn.
Are you positive that it’s the same Chinaka Hodge? There’s a lot of them about.
Context, people. More context is good. Less context is bad. If you're willing to be reductive, then you're willing to be wrong.
by howtheyscored on Nov 5, 2009 1:18 PM PST up reply actions
Yeah
Can’t swing a dead cat around here without hitting some sort of Chinaka Hodge.
Utter frustration and futility.
by Johnny Disaster on Nov 5, 2009 1:31 PM PST up reply actions
I didn't know that
Maybe I need to swing more dead cats.
GROUGTHINK ALERT
The first Chester Arthur fanboy ever.
can’t hurt
Why do San Francisco teams insist on having terrible offenses? Frank Gore and Pablo Sandoval can't do it all.
Well, it can’t hurt the cat.
Context, people. More context is good. Less context is bad. If you're willing to be reductive, then you're willing to be wrong.
by howtheyscored on Nov 5, 2009 1:36 PM PST up reply actions
No it can’t.
HA HA HA LOOK AT ME I'M ALL HAPPY AND STUFF NO REALLY CAN WE STOP WITH THE COOKYMAN IS SAD JOKES?
:-) :-) :-)
Isn’t that how Carney Lansford got his job with the Giants?
"The part of the roster where most of the money is spent, though, is on free agents and guys acquired through trade — guys Sabean did play a big role in acquiring. And they are not good. When you get 2/5 of a pitching rotation for free, you would think you could do better with $76 million than to field the league’s worst offense."
-Taliesin September, 2009
Shit, now y’all reminded me of the dead cat I almost walked onto on the way home yesterday. :(
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
That must have been a huge cat.
Utter frustration and futility.
by Johnny Disaster on Nov 5, 2009 1:36 PM PST up reply actions
I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
Mr. F! | comics | art | New Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory
Now there’s a cat you can walk onto.
Utter frustration and futility.
by Johnny Disaster on Nov 5, 2009 1:44 PM PST up reply actions
The Chinaka from Berkeley High
I was in her class. She’s fucking brilliant. You can see her give the commencement speak at NYU on YouTube. She was also frequently the star of many poetry slams.
I thought you should know. I am…Junot Diaz.
Wait, that’s not right.
Joe Martinez: You are cool.
When it's all said and done, America will be remembered for three things: The Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
Junot Diaz?
I know Diaz too!
My son is Madison Bumgarner, the Spacebat of pitching prospects. My other son is a Porsche.
Garko should be the opening day 1b
Yes, nick johnson is probably a bit better. But garko will be cheaper, and if allowed to play on a regular basis (I’m anti platoon) most evidence points to him being the giants second best hitter. I’ll be disapointed if we spend money on a 1b when garko is a solid and affordable option.
Why do San Francisco teams insist on having terrible offenses? Frank Gore and Pablo Sandoval can't do it all.
WAR since Garko reached the majors
Garko:
2006: 0.8
2007: 1.5
2008: 0.5
2009: 0.8
TOTAL: 3.6
Johnson:
2006: 5.3
2007: N/A
2008: 1.0
2009: 2.4
TOTAL: 8.7
Even missing a whole season, Johnson’s been worth more than twice as much WAR as Garko…
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
Technically, Garko reached the Majors in 2005. But he had one at-bat, so, yeah.
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
did he get a hit?
One at bat is enough for Sabes and Bochey to evaluate him.
I have finally accepted the fact that I will never win a McCoven award.
WAR? Huh. What is it good for? Absolutely nothing.
/Sabean
"Those that drink the Kool-Aid, please leave the room."
I don’t love Garko, but Johnson has much higher “fall off a cliff” potential.
Merkin Valdez? Manuel Mateo? A rose by any other name...
Johnson = too much potential
"The part of the roster where most of the money is spent, though, is on free agents and guys acquired through trade — guys Sabean did play a big role in acquiring. And they are not good. When you get 2/5 of a pitching rotation for free, you would think you could do better with $76 million than to field the league’s worst offense."
-Taliesin September, 2009
Why are you anti-platoon?
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
GET THAT VORP AND WHIP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!
Well
I’m not anti all platoons. I would rather have garko alone than garkawa. That’s the platoon I’m opposed to.
Why do San Francisco teams insist on having terrible offenses? Frank Gore and Pablo Sandoval can't do it all.
But if they produce equally against RHP, wouldn’t you rather have Ishi’s glove out there?
"We're in this thing!" My adopted Giant: "Raptor Jesus" Guzman, "Sweet Jesus" Guzman and Jesus H. Guzman.
I think that Garko would benefit from the transition from platooner to full-timer, both offensively and defensively. Garko is young, and seems to have the potential to be better than he has been. My model for this kind of thinking would be Jayson Werth, who transitioned from platoon player to legitimate starter.
Ishi should be available as a late inning defensive replacement if necessary, but Garko is a better all around player than he is.
Why do San Francisco teams insist on having terrible offenses? Frank Gore and Pablo Sandoval can't do it all.
I thought he didn’t really platoon much until last year.
/could be wrong
Please hit better, Randy Winn.
He had over 550 PAs in 2007 and 2008. Wait, 541 in 2007. But close enough.
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
Oh hey
Look at you guys, coming up with facts that disagree with what I had thought.
But I think this provides evidence for my claim: In 07, as a full timer, he OPS’d 842 with 24 dingers. He had a dropoff in 08, but was on the rebound in 09, all of which was as a full timer.
Ladies and gentlemen of the Jury, I believe that this evidence points to Ryan Garko being a pretty good hitter when allowed to play on a day-to-day basis.
Why do San Francisco teams insist on having terrible offenses? Frank Gore and Pablo Sandoval can't do it all.
In 07, his best year as a full timer
He OPSd 914 against lefties and 812 against righties. I think he can repeat that performance if given the playing time (He was on his way to having another season like that as a full timer in cleveland before the trade)
Why do San Francisco teams insist on having terrible offenses? Frank Gore and Pablo Sandoval can't do it all.
It’s not a good idea to use someone’s peak as a baseline going forward.
Juan Carlos Perez, please start hitting.
I don't think he peaked at 26
It’s true, he absolutely might have, but I just don’t think that’s true.
I think that most of the evidence is clear that he’s a better player when played regularly, and I think that the bar he would have to clear against righties (Ishikawa’s numbers) is very low.
Why do San Francisco teams insist on having terrible offenses? Frank Gore and Pablo Sandoval can't do it all.
I don’t know that there’s any evidence, other than he struggled a bit when he played for the Giants. That’s such a small sample, with some pretty large other variables (particularly the new league/pitchers to learn) that I don’t think we can say anything conclusively. Except that, over his career, he’s a .266/.335/.420 hitter against righties with subpar defense at 1B.
Juan Carlos Perez, please start hitting.
Not really. He had an .826 OPS, 113 OPS+. Better than his career averages, but not great or as good as 2007.
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
Sigh
SBN’s being screwy again for me.
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
probably changing the style again
say hey nation is the Ralph Nader of McC.-Xanthan
by say hey nation on Nov 5, 2009 1:02 PM PST up reply actions
No biggie.
I kind’ve addressed this point above. But the way I see it, there are roughly 3 options for 1B, assuming that a new third basemen doesn’t move panda to 1st.
1) Sign Nick Johnson to play 1B full time
2) Platoon Ryan Garko and Travis Ishikawa
3) Ryan Garko play 1B full time
My argument is not that Garko is OMG BEST 1B ever.
I’m just saying that of those three options, it seems to me that the best balance of production to money would be playing Garko full time. Johnson would undoubtedly be more expensive than Garko, as well as more injury prone.
Garko has played well in the past as a full time 1B. Why not?
Why do San Francisco teams insist on having terrible offenses? Frank Gore and Pablo Sandoval can't do it all.
Well, that's a disagreement
Garko seems to hit better when he’s not platooning.
The question is whether the increased offensive production could compensate for his D compared to Ishi.
Why do San Francisco teams insist on having terrible offenses? Frank Gore and Pablo Sandoval can't do it all.
Garko seems to hit better when he’s not platooning.
I’m sorry, this just isn’t true. I don’t know why you’re ignoring 2008, when he wasn’t platooning, and had a .714 OPS against RHP. He’s just not a very good hitter against righties. Or his career numbers listed above.
Juan Carlos Perez, please start hitting.
For one year, he wasn't a very good hitter vs righties
The year before that, he was pretty good. I don’t know what happened in 08, but he was improving in 09 before the trade.
Why do San Francisco teams insist on having terrible offenses? Frank Gore and Pablo Sandoval can't do it all.
You have it all backwards
For his career he wasn’t a very good hitter vs RHP. For one year he was.
Juan Carlos Perez, please start hitting.
His career is like 3.5 years long. For about 1.5 of it, he was decent vs righties.
Why do San Francisco teams insist on having terrible offenses? Frank Gore and Pablo Sandoval can't do it all.
Then for 2 of it he was horrible. Your best bet here is just going on his career numbers:
.266/.335/.420
Juan Carlos Perez, please start hitting.
Which is still better than TI
.264/.329/.413
11 points higher on OPS.
Again, I think he gets better vs lefties too, when given more playing time.
Why do San Francisco teams insist on having terrible offenses? Frank Gore and Pablo Sandoval can't do it all.
Ishi is probably +10 runs defensively compared to Garko, and he has some upside as a batter.
Juan Carlos Perez, please start hitting.
Your best bet, really, is using his career numbers and regressing both his vs LHP and vs RHP stats toward the standard platoon split. I wouldn’t know how to do that exactly, but 1,714 career plate appearances isn’t really all that many — still a lot of potential noise in there.
Fair enough
I don’t know how to do it either, but it can’t change his numbers too much.
Juan Carlos Perez, please start hitting.
And he’s not good defensively. And he’s really, really slow. And the team doesn’t even seem to like him very much.
I freaked out more about the Sanchez trade, but in retrospect Garko was worse.
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
He’s about a career .340 wOBA hitter against RHP. That’s OK, but his defense is going to ding him pretty good overall.
Travis Ishikawa is a .334 career wOBA hitter against righties with very good defense.
I still make the argument that against RHP, there’s not that much of a difference between Garko and Ishikawa offensively. Throw in Ishkawa’s defense and it’s a stupid trade.
Out of spite for myself and team, I hope the Giants just release him.
Juan Carlos Perez, please start hitting.
What if not receiving consistent playing time hurts his numbers vs LHP? I could see how that’s plausible.
by kingofthacove on Nov 5, 2009 4:44 PM PST up reply actions
Giving him 600 ABs to make 200 of them useful doesn’t make much sense to me. And that’s assuming what you and GiantPain are arguing is true.
Juan Carlos Perez, please start hitting.
There are other free agents besides Johnson. Delgado, Blalock, Branyan, Huff, LaRoche, etc.
Not that I’m endorsing any or all of those guys. But I don’t see why Johnson’s the only outside option.
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
this is certainly one of those reasonable people can differ situations.
If we can trade Garko for something shiny, option 1) would be the clear winner.
Please hit better, Randy Winn.
Not really. He had an .826 OPS, 113 OPS+. Better than his career averages, but not great or as good as 2007.
Utter frustration and futility.
by Johnny Disaster on Nov 5, 2009 1:38 PM PST up reply actions
endogeneity problem
was he platooning because his performance had declined or did his performance decline because he was platooning?
Please hit better, Randy Winn.
Maybe he felt the writing was a but clunky.
Utter frustration and futility.
by Johnny Disaster on Nov 5, 2009 1:36 PM PST up reply actions
FWIW
owlcroft said that he doesn’t think strict platoons work either.
We're all basically Pedro Feliz.
While we're at it . . .
. . . here are some actual data. While Johnson’s career numbers are definitely superior to Garko’s, there is reason to believe that Garko’s career totals are not fully indicative. Consider this pattern for Garko:
Year Org PA Value
2006 cle 209 897
2007 cle 541 938
2008 cle 563 756
2009 cle 271 929
2009 sfo 127 549
(Here, “value” is what a team of nine exact clones would have scored in a season.)
Two things stand out: his poor performance in SF while being played what may loosely be called “part time” (closer to “little time”—how he got 127 PAs is a wonder); and his 2008 line. Now when a man has a pretty consistent history with one major outlier (I think we can just ignore the SF stats), there is cause to believe that the outlier is just that, and that the other data are more representative. Play long enough and you’re bound to have a topout year and a bottomout year somewhere (Johnson’s 2002 and 2004 were pretty mediocre, while his 2006 was great—his career number is 1011).
In short, Garko’s 2007 and Cleveland 2009 numbers look as if they represent his real abilities these days. Those are not Hall of Fame numbers, but they’re pretty good.
Moreover, Garko has played in the outfield, and both the numbers and most (though not all) anecdotal reports say he was OK or better, especially in LF. So, since Fred Lewis is dead meat (regardless of his abilities or lack of them), why not put Garko in LF and let Guzman try his hand at 1B? (Or his bat—his hands are not terribly good anywhere, it says here.)
Leave Rowand in CF (unless that Rowand-for-Bradly deal is actually possible), and put Torres in RF and away you go, especially if Meulens can figure out what has been killing Rowand’s strikeout rate (might he need vision correction?)
(Torres is a terrific CF, but not only is Rowand likely to pout if moved, but in Park-of-Many-Names, RF is actually trickier than CF.)
Re-sign Uribe, and you’ve actually got a passable offense there (no bench, but you can’t turn a battleship on a dime). And if the kids—Neal, Bond, whomever—show as one might hope, there’s even a future of sorts.
Professional baseball analyst since 1980.
Moreover, Garko has played in the outfield, and both the numbers and most (though not all) anecdotal reports say he was OK or better, especially in LF.
No way. Show me these reports.
Replying to self.
I just can’t get over the Garko-to-LF contingent. How does a poor defensive first baseman translate to LF? I hate using this excuse, but have you actually seen him play defense at first? Have you seen his footspeed? Range? Ugh.
That begs the question . . .
. . . by taking as a premise that Garko is a poor 1B.
http://www.clevelandreboot.com/2009/02/in-defense-of-ryan-garko.html
“A third common lament is Garko’s alleged lack of defense. . . . True, his range is limited and he is mechanical around the bag but he’s played the position for only three years. The numbers suggest he makes the plays he gets to and his defense appeared to improve during the course of the season. . . . Comparing apples to apples, Garko’s fielding rank equates with Justin Morneau and Kevin Youklis, both generally considered solid first basemen. His range factor is also higher than both Morneau and Youklis. Room for improvement? Yes. But the overall perception of Garko’s defensive inadequacy appears overstated.”
http://sabrtribe.blogspot.com/2009/05/ryan-garko-what-does-he-have-to-do.html
“Over the past 3 season Garko has progressively gone from a player with . . . well below average defense to a player with . . . below average defense to a player with . . . average defense.”
The articles on his outfield play also note that he has lost weight in recent seasons and is moving much faster and more smoothly, in the field and on the bases.
Professional baseball analyst since 1980.
“He makes the plays he gets to.”
Come on now, we all that’s code for “he doesn’t make many plays.” That’s what they say when they try to polish the Adam Dunn’s defensive turds.
Please hit better, Randy Winn.
You ask, we answer:
Show me these reports.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/g/garkory01-field.shtml
As a LF (granted, only 9 games, but it’s what we have):
RangeFactor/9: Garko, 2.06; League, 2.12 – not at all much off average.
http://www.cleveland.com/tribe/index.ssf/2009/03/ryan_garko_playing_outfield_a.html
“Ryan Garko playing outfield: A good deal for Cleveland Indians”
http://www.cleveland.com/tribe/index.ssf/2009/03/ryan_garko_has_become_mr_left.html
“Ryan Garko has become Mr. Left Field and Mr. Right Field for the Cleveland Indians this spring”
Recall, no one is saying Garko has Gold Glove potential. But LF in The-Park-of-Many-Names is not terribly demanding, and it makes an opportunity to get a good bat into the lineup. My Lord, there are still people who think Fred Lewis can play LF, so let’s cut some slack here. . . .
Professional baseball analyst since 1980.
My Lord, there are still people who think Fred Lewis can play LF, so let’s cut some slack here.
In choosing between a guy with positive UZR in left field and a guy with negative UZR at first base, and one guy’s fast and the other guy’s the second slowest member of a team with Bengie Molina, I’ll choose the former.
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
I would like to thank owlcraft
For doing all the research to find some semblance of facts to back up my vague assertions and dreams.
Why do San Francisco teams insist on having terrible offenses? Frank Gore and Pablo Sandoval can't do it all.
Psst: it’s “owlcroft”
As in “He’s a crofty veteran.”
You can't solve your problems with the same level of thinking that created the problems - Albert Einstein to Brian Sabean
Or
I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
Mr. F! | comics | art | New Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory
Not only is the sample size ridiculously small, but RangeFactor is a terrible and archaic stat.
The article is just a puff piece from a Clevland site. I could find you three Giants articles claiming that Todd Linden is a good hitter now, or that Velez is the new Chone Figgins. These things are meaningless.
Fred Lewis is fine in LF.
HA HA HA LOOK AT ME I'M ALL HAPPY AND STUFF NO REALLY CAN WE STOP WITH THE COOKYMAN IS SAD JOKES?
:-) :-) :-)
But LF in The-Park-of-Many-Names is not terribly demanding
I actually disagree with that. The winds in LF can sometimes swirrel al a Candlestick.
Please hit better, Randy Winn.
Here’s another way of looking at Garko’s history.
At age 24-25, he played nearly two full seasons in AAA and hit .280/.370/.462. A decent line, but nothing special — players like Lewis and Schierholtz and Linden have done as well or better. MLE would be something line .250/.330/.410.
At age 27-28, in nearly 1,000 plate appearances in the majors, he hit .271/.345/.411.
In between, at age 25-26, we have 750 pa’s in which he was good: .290/.359/.480.
Which line, then, is the outlier? Doesn’t it look for all the world as if he peaked at 26, and has since returned to the level he established in the minors?
Your doesn't.
I fail to see how matters can be much plainer. He had one mediocre year, 2008; in the first part of 2009, playing fairly regularly, he was right back on the pace of 2006 and 2007. (Of course, once he got to SF and learned to Cloud Men’s Minds so that he became invisible, his numbers went down, as such things typically do in such situations.) Players normally peak around age 27 to 28; to think that a man would have a drastic, presumably permanent falloff at that age is, well, frankly, rather silly.
Professional baseball analyst since 1980.
Garko had a one solid year – 2007 (in 2006 he barely got 200 PA’s). One. Then he had a bad year. Than he had another bad year (not mediocre – a league average hitter who plays poor defense at 1B is not a mediocre player, he is a terrible player. There are players who can beat that and don’t have a job). So he wasn’t very impressive in AAA, then he had one OK year, and then two more bad years. I definitely agree that matters couldn’t be much plainer.
It’s not about a “drastic, presumably permanent falloff .” It’s about having one good year. It happens all the time. Players have a career season, then they go back to somewhere close to their career norms. Look at Pedro Feliz and Adrian Beltre in 2004, or Randy Winn in 2005, or Freddy Sanchez in 2006, or Jeff Francoeur in 2007, or Ryan Ludwick in 2008.
HA HA HA LOOK AT ME I'M ALL HAPPY AND STUFF NO REALLY CAN WE STOP WITH THE COOKYMAN IS SAD JOKES?
:-) :-) :-)
A player’s performance record tells a story. My Garko story goes like this: After an unimpressive minor-league career, he bursts into the majors with a career year, then retreats back into mediocrity. Your Garko story goes like this: After an unimpressive minor-league career, he takes a great leap forward upon reaching the majors. He then suffers an off year in his second full season, but then rebounds in the first half of the next season, but then un-rebounds when he gets traded, but is a good bet to re-rebound next season.
Occam’s razor tells me my interpretation is more likely to prove correct.
GIANTS LINKED TO OCCAM
Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."
Nobody puts Bengie in a corner!
by natteringnabob on Nov 7, 2009 9:54 AM PST up reply actions
He walks too much for Sabean to be interested anyway.
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
Before he teaches them how to run
"We're in this thing!" My adopted Giant: "Raptor Jesus" Guzman, "Sweet Jesus" Guzman and Jesus H. Guzman.
I think gark could benefit from the change from platooner to full timer. It worked for Jayson werth.
Why do San Francisco teams insist on having terrible offenses? Frank Gore and Pablo Sandoval can't do it all.
reply fail
this was meant for an entirely different part of this thread. my bad.
Why do San Francisco teams insist on having terrible offenses? Frank Gore and Pablo Sandoval can't do it all.
No
not Pablo AND Juan!
Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."
Nobody puts Bengie in a corner!
by natteringnabob on Nov 5, 2009 3:27 PM PST up reply actions
3/27
say hey nation is the Ralph Nader of McC.-Xanthan
by say hey nation on Nov 5, 2009 12:18 PM PST up reply actions
Another addition to the list of things xanthan hates
Venezuelans.
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
3/27
say hey nation is the Ralph Nader of McC.-Xanthan
by say hey nation on Nov 5, 2009 12:18 PM PST up reply actions
Thank GOD!
say hey nation is the Ralph Nader of McC.-Xanthan
by say hey nation on Nov 5, 2009 12:18 PM PST up reply actions
RT: @ed_price #Angels signed Abreu for $19M: $9M each in 2010-11, $1M buyout on $9M option for 2012 that can be guaranteed base on plate app
YOU EAT YOUR DAMN EGGROLL
I WAS RIGHT!
http://www.mccoveychronicles.com/2009/11/5/1117567/lukewarm-stove-the-beginning#23940459
say hey nation is the Ralph Nader of McC.-Xanthan
by say hey nation on Nov 5, 2009 12:46 PM PST up reply actions
kinda
say hey nation is the Ralph Nader of McC.-Xanthan
by say hey nation on Nov 5, 2009 12:47 PM PST up reply actions
Looks like the Mets are declining JJ Putz option.
According to Bart Hubbuch of the New York Post, the Mets have told J.J. Putz that they will decline his $9.1 million option for 2010.
Choosing the $1 million buyout instead is a no-brainer given Putz’s arm problems. Acquired as the centerpiece of a three-team deal with the Mariners and Indians, Putz logged just 29 1/3 innings for the Mets while allowing 18 runs. He may have to settle for an incentive-laden one-year deal to prove that he’s healthy.
Might be an interesting 1-year reclamation option for the bullpen.
What about Chad Tracy? What happened to him, would he be a good player to take a chance on?
say hey nation is the Ralph Nader of McC.-Xanthan
Diamondbacks declined infielder Chad Tracy’s $7 million option for 2010.
Tracy gets a $1 million buyout instead and becomes a free agent after hitting just .237/.306/.389 while playing fewer than 100 games for the third straight season. He hasn’t been healthy and productive since 2006, will be 30 years old next season and is no longer a realistic option defensively at third base, so Tracy may have to settle for a bench job this winter.
Microfracture knee problems, IIRC. He’s stuck at 1B now and he’s not really any better than Garko. Or vice versa.
Lefty-mashing platoon mate to share time in left field with Fred
Some names to throw out: Reed Johnson, Andruw Jones
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
GET THAT VORP AND WHIP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!
Unfortunately, I don’t think Lewis should be thought about in plans for next year after the playing time he got last year mixed with the comments he had late in the season
YOU EAT YOUR DAMN EGGROLL
ie all signs point to Velez, Torres, Rowand, and maybe with Bam Bam’s hiring, Bowker as our top 4 outfielders.
YOU EAT YOUR DAMN EGGROLL
CAN YOU PLEASE LET ME HAVE MY FANTASY PLATOON?
:-(
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
GET THAT VORP AND WHIP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!
Reed Johnson’s my standby for RH platoon outfielders. He might be getting long in the tooth, though.
Honestly, I think Andres Torres is perfectly fine.
I'm still unsure about Torres though
Or else I’d stick him with Fred in left rather than go out and get someone
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
GET THAT VORP AND WHIP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!
Probably beaten to death, but
why the hell are we/Sabean/Bochy/Giants Brass talking about a Velez/Torres platoon in LF & leading off instead of a Lewis/Torres platoon in LF & leading off?
Still the loving, adoptive father of Hector Sanchez. And who doesn't love switch-hitting catchers with power and patience?
b/c a player has to be on your team in order to play
Lewis was cut today
say hey nation is the Ralph Nader of McC.-Xanthan
by say hey nation on Nov 5, 2009 12:32 PM PST up reply actions
Can’t Fred VROOOOOOM? Or are there just too few O’s?
Still the loving, adoptive father of Hector Sanchez. And who doesn't love switch-hitting catchers with power and patience?
Not the same kind of VROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM
by AndYourBirdCanSing on Nov 5, 2009 12:45 PM PST up reply actions
because
the most important position on the field to defend is LF? And it’s so incredibly difficult to find a big lug to stand around in LF and hit home runs?
Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."
Nobody puts Bengie in a corner!
by natteringnabob on Nov 5, 2009 3:29 PM PST up reply actions
Can we get realistic please? These ideas are all so far fetched. This is what’s going to happen:
-Sign Jason Bay
-Sign Adrian Beltre
-Sign Jack Wilson
-Trade Renteria for Willis
-Trade Sanchez, Schierholtz, Garko for Granderson
-Sign Brian Schneider
-acquire Eric Byrnes
-aquire Jermey Accardo
by AndYourBirdCanSing on Nov 5, 2009 12:35 PM PST reply actions
C’mon, get real we need a better return for Sanchez, Nate and Garko
say hey nation is the Ralph Nader of McC.-Xanthan
by say hey nation on Nov 5, 2009 12:37 PM PST up reply actions
you left out Matsui
Brain started sending text messages to his agent after the home run in game 6
Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."
Nobody puts Bengie in a corner!
by natteringnabob on Nov 5, 2009 3:29 PM PST up reply actions
This makes my head hurt for all kinds of reasons.
Joe Martinez: You are cool.
When it's all said and done, America will be remembered for three things: The Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
Is it not so . . .
. . . that Eric Hinske is a free agent this winter? Marginal at best as an everyday player where he can play, but possibly a real bargain as a reserve/PH. And sometimes that sort of guy can surprise (can you spell U-R-I-B-E? I think y’can . . . .)
Professional baseball analyst since 1980.
Giants trade Fred Lewis, Velez, and Brian Wilson for BJ Upton and some reliever
In my imagination
Tommy Joseph is the Dingerzball Wizard
Why do we want to get rid of Wilson, a decent closer is hard to come by.
See Benitez.
This could get messy if they trade him.
Whats the point of a closer if you are always behind?
say hey nation is the Ralph Nader of McC.-Xanthan
by say hey nation on Nov 5, 2009 12:40 PM PST up reply actions
I’ve never seen where this talk has come about trading Wilson. Seems like Bork, Sabean, and the like all love Wilson.
YOU EAT YOUR DAMN EGGROLL
I’ve always been in favor of keeping Wilson as insurance against another Armando contract, but at this point he’s eligible for arbitration, so I wouldn’t mind it.
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
Apparently, you are not a Romosexual
Tommy Joseph is the Dingerzball Wizard
by SoFa King Mike on Nov 5, 2009 12:40 PM PST up reply actions
Obviously, as a closer you have to throw 4 strikes for a K and 3 balls for a BB.
say hey nation is the Ralph Nader of McC.-Xanthan
by say hey nation on Nov 5, 2009 12:42 PM PST up reply actions
How many setup men become closer and fail every year. Tons I dont have time to sight every example but every year a team say we can make player X the closer and they usually fail. If it was that easy every team would have a good closer.
Names
say hey nation is the Ralph Nader of McC.-Xanthan
by say hey nation on Nov 5, 2009 12:44 PM PST up reply actions
ok
The Rockies decided that Street was struggling so the let Corpes close, Fail.
The Cubs tried there great set up man Marmol as closer, Fail.
The Giants tried Walker a few years back, Fail.
Angels tried Arredando at closer, Fail.
There are more but I dont have the patience to continue to look them up.
To start with
Tyler Walker was never good.
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
by jcb9 on Nov 5, 2009 12:50 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Did you name any actually good relievers to begin with? No. Not great pitchers didn’t pitch great. Color me shocked.
Juan Carlos Perez, please start hitting.
Yeah they werent great but they had a good stretch and the team made the move and turned into mistake.
It turned into a mistake because they weren’t that good of pitchers, not because they couldn’t handle the role of closer. I’m sure there are guys who fall into this category (LaTroy Hawkins comes to mind), but you’re overselling the point by a lot.
Juan Carlos Perez, please start hitting.
In point of fact . . .
. . . the Oakland A’s are more or less famous for generating closers then trading them at the top of their value, after which they generate another one. Wilson was in a seven-way tie for fourth in MLB with blown saves. His “blow ratio” was about 16% (7 in 45 opportunities); Lidge was, of course, the lead standard here, at 26%.
Looking at the guys given the most opportunities (30 or more), it stacks up like this (and I’m sorry for the appearance, but if there is a sane way to format lines here, I sure can’t find it):
PITCHER org SvO Bl Pct.
Brad Lidge PHI 42 11 26.2
Leo Nunez FLA 33 7 21.2
Bobby Jenks CHW 35 6 17.1
Francisco Rodriguez NYM 42 7 16.7
Matt Capps PIT 32 5 15.6
Brian Wilson SFO 45 7 15.5
Jonathan Broxton LAD 42 6 14.3
Rafael Soriano ATL 31 4 12.9
Brian Fuentes LAA 55 7 12.7
Heath Bell SDG 48 6 12.5
Ryan Franklin STL 43 5 11.6
Trevor Hoffman MIL 41 4 9.8
Joe Nathan MIN 52 5 9.6
David Aardsma SEA 42 4 9.5
Joakim Soria KAN 33 3 9.1
Francisco Cordero CIN 43 4 9.3
Jonathan Papelbon BOS 41 3 7.3
Huston Street COL 37 2 5.4
Mariano Rivera NYY 46 2 4.3
Fernando Rodney DET 38 1 2.6
So Wilson was sixth-worst of reasonably busy closers. I for one could easily live with his loss if it brought back a reasonably young and talented position player.
Professional baseball analyst since 1980.
Awesome post for clearly presenting a pattern.
I was in favor of moving Wilson for a good return ( presuming someone hit the front office with the Alien Mind Switching Ray again) before this but my threshold for what was a good return was much, much higher.
Who’s brain did you bring me?
Brain SabeanOranother.
Well, the threshold should be “makes the team better,” and by “better” that means in 2010. I am very skeptical that a relief pitcher, even a “proven closer,” can bring back a major-league-ready everyday player who would be a clear upgrade even for a miserable offensive team like the Giants — unless said everyday player is expensive, like say Carl Crawford. In fact I think Wilson for Crawford would make sense for both teams.
Look at the Putz trade. That brought back 2 players that improved the M’s. In this case I am not saying that is the template follow just stating such moves still happen. I am a bit longer viewed than most fans as well. I would accept the right combination of farm hands with strong skill sets (good arms, non out hitters, etc).
All this is whistling in the wind though. I think Sabean is far more likely to empty out the farm to make a push in the next 2 seasons than he is to keep upgrading the franchises over all talent.
Who’s brain did you bring me?
Brain SabeanOranother.
I agree
Anyone remember who the setup man was for John Wetteland before 1996?
Anyone remember who the setup man was for Troy Percival pre 2003 (ouch!).
oh yeah that guy who had one bad game in the playoffs and was a part of the worst trade of the decade and maybe only second to the Glen Davis for Curt Schilling, Pete Harnisch, and Steve Finley trade of 1991 on the list of worst trades of the past 20 years…
You’re forgetting the Adrian Gonzales and Chris Young for Adam Eaton. That was even worse than the AJ trade, and I abhor that trade.
The Adam Eaton trade was epically bad. The AJ trade doesn’t look sooooo bad in retrospect, but it wasn’t good. The Rangers traded a potential Hall-of-Famer and a decent mid-rotation starter for a decent (at the time) mid-rotation starter who proceeded to drive a motorcycle off a cliff.
Joe Martinez: You are cool.
When it's all said and done, America will be remembered for three things: The Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
I mentioned this before but the worst trade ever was Omar Minaya trading Brandon Phillips, Grady Sizemore and Cliff Lee for Bartolo Colon when he was with the Expos.
No Edgar, it's not your fault, it's the fault of the idiot that plays you
That’s epic in a Homeric sense.
Joe Martinez: You are cool.
When it's all said and done, America will be remembered for three things: The Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
But what does Virgil think?
Joe Martinez: You are cool.
When it's all said and done, America will be remembered for three things: The Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
That was a horrific trade, but at Omar did have a built in excuse. He was operating in the weirdest venue ever, with a team that was surprisingly in contention. He was desperate to make some sort of mark that year. I have no idea what the Rangers were thinking, especially since they knew that Texeria would be moving on.
I’d have to throw Marmol in the “great for a reliever” category. That slider he throws is balls nasty.
those are examples of GM’s being bad GM’s
say hey nation is the Ralph Nader of McC.-Xanthan
by say hey nation on Nov 5, 2009 12:52 PM PST up reply actions
and that makes your point right?
say hey nation is the Ralph Nader of McC.-Xanthan
by say hey nation on Nov 5, 2009 12:57 PM PST up reply actions
I believe
the correct response is:
LaTroy Hawkins.
However, I think he is the exception.
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
-------
PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game currently in early planning stages.
seriously
If I did that I would have to spend all day and I dont have taht kind of time thats how many there are.
If there are so many, you should be able to list just a few examples. Nobody’s asking you for every example in the history of the game.
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
And, of course, there are examples
There are also examples of guys who were good closers and then suddenly not, or who were good setup men and then stopped being good setup men suddenly, or who were good middle relievers and then stopped suddenly. Relief pitching is a volatile, unpredictable thing.
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
And did the Angels actually use Arredondo as a closer? It couldn’t have been for long if so – he doesn’t have a single save in the Majors. Nobody’s THAT bad.
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
Maybe 2008 (7 blown saves)
say hey nation is the Ralph Nader of McC.-Xanthan
by say hey nation on Nov 5, 2009 12:55 PM PST up reply actions
Blown saves also happen for setup men, I can’t imagine he’d go 0 for 7.
Juan Carlos Perez, please start hitting.
I know, just guessing. I couldn’t imagine the Angels using a rookie as a closer!
Also K-Rod was still around then
say hey nation is the Ralph Nader of McC.-Xanthan
by say hey nation on Nov 5, 2009 12:58 PM PST up reply actions
Thats like saying all opinons are correct
say hey nation is the Ralph Nader of McC.-Xanthan
by say hey nation on Nov 5, 2009 12:53 PM PST up reply actions
That's all hypothetical
But a trade like this balances out the need for a major bat for the Giants. Tampa Bay gets what they need
Tommy Joseph is the Dingerzball Wizard
by SoFa King Mike on Nov 5, 2009 12:46 PM PST up reply actions
I don't think Wilson will have the same success as he has had the last couple of years.
That is why I mentioned him specifically because logic tells me to sell high. Not while I am high, but sell at a high price
Tommy Joseph is the Dingerzball Wizard
by SoFa King Mike on Nov 5, 2009 12:51 PM PST up reply actions
No pressure if BJ knocks in a 4 run lead
Tommy Joseph is the Dingerzball Wizard
by SoFa King Mike on Nov 5, 2009 12:47 PM PST up reply actions
Panda
Tommy Joseph is the Dingerzball Wizard
by SoFa King Mike on Nov 5, 2009 12:52 PM PST up reply actions
you have 3 to 5 at bats a game
say hey nation is the Ralph Nader of McC.-Xanthan
by say hey nation on Nov 5, 2009 12:56 PM PST up reply actions
Ok fine they have four run lead and you "closer comes in and gets no one out and now you lose.
No lead is ever safe
No lead is safe with Wilson or any reliever for that matter
Tommy Joseph is the Dingerzball Wizard
by SoFa King Mike on Nov 5, 2009 12:59 PM PST up reply actions
No lead is ever safe
This logic makes a closer even more worthless.
WHY IS BOCOCK?!
by Lars The Wanderer on Nov 5, 2009 1:00 PM PST up reply actions
Even if you’re right about a closer’s importance. It comes down to who’s more valuable. A guy who pitches in 60 innings a year or a guy who plays 150+ games.
by AndYourBirdCanSing on Nov 5, 2009 12:56 PM PST up reply actions
If he does it twice
Tommy Joseph is the Dingerzball Wizard
by SoFa King Mike on Nov 5, 2009 12:56 PM PST up reply actions
We could always send cash
Tommy Joseph is the Dingerzball Wizard
by SoFa King Mike on Nov 5, 2009 1:00 PM PST up reply actions
We could always send cash
Tommy Joseph is the Dingerzball Wizard
by SoFa King Mike on Nov 5, 2009 1:01 PM PST up reply actions
Fred Lewis
/sobs
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
You cannot have a bat boy on base.
"Being a McCoven is like being a member of the Green party. It’s powerlessness is part of the appeal." - oldjacket
One unlocks the door in the morning and puts money in the register and the empties the cash register and locks the door!
say hey nation is the Ralph Nader of McC.-Xanthan
by say hey nation on Nov 5, 2009 12:44 PM PST up reply actions
This team has needs
A BJ is one of them
Tommy Joseph is the Dingerzball Wizard
by SoFa King Mike on Nov 5, 2009 12:42 PM PST up reply actions
/Frandsen weeping
Tommy Joseph is the Dingerzball Wizard
by SoFa King Mike on Nov 5, 2009 1:16 PM PST up reply actions
apparently
decent 1B, 2B, SS, and corner OFs also hard to come by.
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
-------
PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game currently in early planning stages.
Nobody needs Lewis AND Velez. Make it Wilson, Lewis, and, say, Brandon Crawford and I can join you in this pipe dream.
/high five
Tommy Joseph is the Dingerzball Wizard
by SoFa King Mike on Nov 5, 2009 1:37 PM PST up reply actions
You know who needs a closer?
Philadelphia.
I wonder what we could get from them for BWheez.
Why do San Francisco teams insist on having terrible offenses? Frank Gore and Pablo Sandoval can't do it all.
I’d rather just wait for Crawford at this point. Maybe let Rohlinger have a shot.
Juan Carlos Perez, please start hitting.
What’s the chance that Crawford every becomes a quality starter, with his bat? Five percent? I’d trade him in an instant for someone useful today.
With his glove, he doesn’t really have to hit much to at least be useful. Especially his first 3/4 years in the bigs.
Juan Carlos Perez, please start hitting.
This leaves aside the difference between what we define as useful and what Sabean defines as useful (VROOM!).
Who’s brain did you bring me?
Brain SabeanOranother.
Sabean also hates offense…
Joe Martinez: You are cool.
When it's all said and done, America will be remembered for three things: The Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
I’m getting kinda tired of these only glove guys. Now, if we can surround him with Posey, if Neal is Real, Panda, and whoever else I’m forgetting then fine…but just a glove alone right now is so meh to me after last season
YOU EAT YOUR DAMN EGGROLL
MOAR DINGERZ
Tommy Joseph is the Dingerzball Wizard
by SoFa King Mike on Nov 5, 2009 1:08 PM PST up reply actions
He actually has some upside with the bat. He was promoted pretty aggressively last year, so I’m willing to cut his AA numbers some slack (also, I’m a homer). Anyways, I wouldn’t worry about the offense. 2011 Giants:
Posey
Pablo
Noonan
??
Crawford
Neal
Ford
Kieschnick
Nothing to worry about…
Juan Carlos Perez, please start hitting.
?? = Bengie Molina
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Nov 5, 2009 2:00 PM PST up reply actions
I get your argument but there really are 2 places on a diamond ( SS, Cf) for only glove guys not matter how much of a mashing team you put together. I would find it refreshing if one of our only glove guys actually placed one of those two spots.
Who’s brain did you bring me?
Brain SabeanOranother.
As our team is NOW, we need offense everywhere we can get it. Until we start adding guys who can hit, I have to assume that we can’t just settle for a glove at any position
YOU EAT YOUR DAMN EGGROLL
Finding one of those at SS is pretty hard though. Near impossible if you don’t develop them yourself.
Juan Carlos Perez, please start hitting.
Probably
I’m not sure what your point is though. I’m saying that finding offense at SS (and I’m qualifying that as offense that won’t give it all back defensively) is near impossible in the FA market or in trade. Or it’s insanely expensive.
The best way (obviously) is to develop your own, which is why Crawford is probably our best current option. He’s got the tools, he just needs to apply them better in the batters box.
Juan Carlos Perez, please start hitting.
/Frandsen weeping in a corner
Tommy Joseph is the Dingerzball Wizard
by SoFa King Mike on Nov 5, 2009 1:18 PM PST up reply actions
Did you get to see the first few years of Ozzie Smith?
The points here are:
1) It that is one spot were a young players bat can be allowed to finish maturing in the Big’s if his glove work is good enough.
2) And be being good with the glove up the middle it opens up other options for building a roster. Say like considering adding a defensibly challenged Lf or a cheap ground ball starter for the bottom of the rotation.
Who’s brain did you bring me?
Brain SabeanOranother.
I’m not Anti Crawford. I’m Anti the idea that our CURRENT Giants can just add a glove with no offense to back it.
YOU EAT YOUR DAMN EGGROLL
I get that you are not anti Crawford. Never meant to sound otherwise. I am just saying haveing an all glove/ weak stick guy at SS is a whole different question than all glove week stick at a Corner Outfield or Corner Infield spot. And is a lot more useful in a MI.
Who’s brain did you bring me?
Brain SabeanOranother.
I definitely agree with that statement. YOU GET THAT RANDY WINN?! YOU HAVE NO PLACE HERE
YOU EAT YOUR DAMN EGGROLL
Aargh!
I get so tired of that stuff. There is no place on a team that actually has a good opportunity to win anything for a “glove guy”. Look at the roll call of highly successful teams and you may find one or two “glove guys” here or there, but they’re the exception.
Not all giants, just no midgets.
Professional baseball analyst since 1980.
I guess I am just more fatalistic about the Giants front office at this point. In this decade Sabean has repeatedly chosen glove work over offense. I don’t see that changing. What I would like to see is that kind of player in a spot where he is likely to do the team the most good.
Now perhaps you are making a different point that I am missing. I am more than willing to follow along a different path of thought if that is the case.
Who’s brain did you bring me?
Brain SabeanOranother.
Maybe I’m misinterpreting you here, but the vast majority of good teams have had guys with bad to terrible bats at one or more positions. Here’s just a few:
88 Dodgers – Everybody not named Kirk Gibson and Mike Marshall
86 Mets (108 win team) – Rafael Santana at shortstop (52 OPS+)!!!
88-90 A’s – Walt Weiss and Mike Gallego/Ken Oberkfell and Terry Steinbach
90’s Braves – Greg Olsen, Rafael Belliard (a 37 OPS+ in 92), Mark Lemke, Sid Bream, Otis Nixon
92 Pirates – Mike Lavallier, Jose Lind
07 Red Sox – Julio Lugo and Coco Crisp
These are just off the top of my head (with fact checking done at baseball-reference). And not all of those guys played great defense.
Heck, even a team with an insanely loaded lineup such as the 09 Yankees had Melky Cabrera, who could be classified as a glove guy (though a 97 OPS+ is pretty decent for a centerfield glove guy).
Hmm, checking further…
The 75 Reds – Concepcion and Cesar Geronimo
The 27 Yankees – Mark Koenig and Joe Dugan
The 61 Yankees – Bobby Richardson, Tony Kubek and Clete Boyer
The 01 Mariners – Carlos Guillen and David Bell
It seems to me that it is an exception when a great team does not have one or two bad to terrible bats weighing down the lineup. It’s seems to me that it is exceptionally rare when there isn’t a “glove guy” (sometimes without the glove) somewhere on the team getting consistent at-bats.
It’s pretty unrealistic (09 Yankees notwithstanding) to expect a team to field 8 or 9 position players with average or better bats. So, in the event you can’t, it would be smart to go with somebody who has a very good glove. Right?
Again, maybe I am misinterpreting you, though.
The baseball Satanist
I don’t think you’re misinterpreting him, I think you’re right.
It’s pretty unrealistic (09 Yankees notwithstanding) to expect a team to field 8 or 9 position players with average or better bats. So, in the event you can’t, it would be smart to go with somebody who has a very good glove. Right?
The Yankees are the best offensive team in baseball and they were the only ones to have all 8 starters post positive batting values. If you have the have the ‘09 Yankees lineup to contend no more than one team is going to contend every year, if that. And the playoffs could get a little boring if there’s a maximum of one team.
In fact, some teams had regular players who were barely average. For example, Nick Green (Boston’s SS) and Gary Matthews Jr. (LAA’s OF) were average to below average, and I could find examples on other teams, I just don’t want to go sifting through all that data right now. Those weren’t even “glove guys”, they were “we don’t have anyone else to play this position” guys. And I think a lot of teams have those, even serious, perennial contenders.
just about every Pirates team in the 70s
had Taveras, or Mendoza, or Omar Moreno.
all the A’s dynasty teams had Dick Green and similar at 2B. Tenace and Fosse weren’t always big bats, either. Which is what led to Finley’s designated pinch hitter strategy, pinchhitting for the 2B (or C) every time the spot came up in the order.
Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."
Nobody puts Bengie in a corner!
by natteringnabob on Nov 8, 2009 6:43 AM PST up reply actions
No, you're not.
Obviously—or I hope it was obvious—I am speaking of optima and ideal cases. That successful teams have had a weak bat, or even two, does not demonstrate that having a weak bat is A Good Thing; it only demonstrates that when everybody else has one (or two) also, you can compete.
But it’s not just the ‘09 Yankees: look at teams that score a lot of runs and you don’t find too many Roger Metzgers playing every day. And runs scored are just as important as runs saved by pitching and defence, and a whole lot easier to come by on a per-man basis than runs saved on defense (the current fad for making ridiculous claims about fielding runs saved deserves an entire thread of its own).
Professional baseball analyst since 1980.
Yes, the whole “runs saved” really irritates me as well. It is right there with “creates RBI’s” on my brainless broadcaster chatter that sets my fillings on edge. And I am real partial to well pitched, well defended thus fast paced games.
I think the next step, after a proper range metric has been successfully field tested for a number of years, would be a way to express fielding miss cues and gaffs in terms of extra outs, beyond 3 in an inning or 27 in a game, or extra 90’ ( base state change) or eventually number of pitches a poor play results. In the end Outs, 90 feet increments and (now days do to pitch counts – if nothing else) pitches are the basic 3 units ( and the exchange rates between them in a given game) that the entire sport is built around.
Who’s brain did you bring me?
Brain SabeanOranother.
Pedro Feliz!
Tommy Joseph is the Dingerzball Wizard
by SoFa King Mike on Nov 5, 2009 12:47 PM PST up reply actions
BWheez and Sanchez for a dream named Chase Utley.
"Being a McCoven is like being a member of the Green party. It’s powerlessness is part of the appeal." - oldjacket
Has Chase Utley ever won a batting title? Hmm???
/DA BRAZZ
STEVE HOLM! refuses to be the odd man out.
by UnleashTheGore on Nov 5, 2009 2:02 PM PST up reply actions
What about
Wilson for Ibanez?
Why do San Francisco teams insist on having terrible offenses? Frank Gore and Pablo Sandoval can't do it all.
CLANK
Tommy Joseph is the Dingerzball Wizard
by SoFa King Mike on Nov 5, 2009 12:52 PM PST up reply actions
Yeah
But dingerz.
Why do San Francisco teams insist on having terrible offenses? Frank Gore and Pablo Sandoval can't do it all.
Runz
He giveths and he takeths
Tommy Joseph is the Dingerzball Wizard
by SoFa King Mike on Nov 5, 2009 12:54 PM PST up reply actions
God?
Joe Martinez: You are cool.
When it's all said and done, America will be remembered for three things: The Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
Stairs and Ibanez?
Eyre, Wilson, and Feliz?
/runs
Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."
Nobody puts Bengie in a corner!
by natteringnabob on Nov 5, 2009 3:31 PM PST up reply actions
I want to go on record as really likeing this idea.
I would recommend it but I don’t won’t to risk knocking some else’s hard work out.
Who’s brain did you bring me?
Brain SabeanOranother.
My braniac idea
Trade Rowand for Bradley
Sign Holliday
Sign Johnson
CF Velez
2B Sanchez
3B Panda
LF Holliday
1B Johnson
RF Bradley
C Posey
SS Renteria
P Lincecum
STEVE HOLM! refuses to be the odd man out.
I’d love to get rid of Rowand but why is Velez!
by AndYourBirdCanSing on Nov 5, 2009 1:17 PM PST up reply actions
Why is Velez?!?
Tommy Joseph is the Dingerzball Wizard
by SoFa King Mike on Nov 5, 2009 1:21 PM PST up reply actions
Because Crawford isn't.
Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."
Nobody puts Bengie in a corner!
by natteringnabob on Nov 5, 2009 3:31 PM PST up reply actions
I’m not convinced Nate’s going to be better than Velez
STEVE HOLM! refuses to be the odd man out.
by UnleashTheGore on Nov 5, 2009 2:00 PM PST up reply actions
Optimist
I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
Mr. F! | comics | art | New Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory
eternally-
some law somewhere says that the flukish “hot streak” he had after being called up this summer will be strongly counterbalanced in spring training where he will bat .198/.211/.232
His hot streak lasted about a week, yet they kept playing him, so I’m pretty sure he’ll be on the team next season.
I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
Mr. F! | comics | art | New Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory
did you JUST become
a Giants fan or something???…. we don’t get karma returns in our favor.
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
-------
PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game currently in early planning stages.
NO...
Tim is high. I just believe Bochy likes Velez.
STEVE HOLM! refuses to be the odd man out.
by UnleashTheGore on Nov 5, 2009 4:02 PM PST up reply actions
I would be fine with this. Especially if CF and RF will be more of a platoon involving Torres and Bowker, respectively. I am less down on the Velez against RHP in CF idea, especially if it allows us to upgrade elsewhere.
Merkin Valdez? Manuel Mateo? A rose by any other name...
This team will win 105 games
. . .Why? Because the guy in the #9 hole is pitching. Otherwise this lineup aint happenin’ Sorry Braniac. Why? Because your first baseman will be on the DL for all but 38 games. Your CF will be running in when the ball is going out. Ooops. Your shortstop can’t quite get to the ball in time and will be tired from grounding into so many double plays. Your RF will be in Bellevue. Your LF in St. Louis. And your catcher in Fresno. That leaves Panda and Timmy. Time to light one up.
Don't believe everything you think.
so what
make it a three-way…. trade.
Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."
Nobody puts Bengie in a corner!
by natteringnabob on Nov 5, 2009 3:32 PM PST up reply actions
I'M SWOOPIN
Brian Sabean strongly encourages you to disregard the drudgery of your employment responsibilities and join him in the consumption of spirituous libations.
THOSE COMMENTS ARE FOR TWITTER!
say hey nation is the Ralph Nader of McC.-Xanthan
by say hey nation on Nov 5, 2009 1:13 PM PST up reply actions
Offseason Checklist
Step 1 : Cut a hole in the box
Obviously any links in the above post are probably NSFW
Step 3:
PROFIT!
Tommy Joseph is the Dingerzball Wizard
by SoFa King Mike on Nov 5, 2009 1:23 PM PST up reply actions
Wait
What’s step two?
We should do it!
Why do San Francisco teams insist on having terrible offenses? Frank Gore and Pablo Sandoval can't do it all.
say hey nation is the Ralph Nader of McC.-Xanthan
by say hey nation on Nov 5, 2009 1:36 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
THAT'S WHY THERE'S A BOX
(so the blood won’t leak out and make a mess)
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
-------
PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game currently in early planning stages.
The Sox are most likely not going to re-sign Baldelli.
Tommy Joseph is the Dingerzball Wizard
by SoFa King Mike on Nov 5, 2009 3:05 PM PST up reply actions
Red Sox know the Giants will top their offer for Bay.
Matt Cain: throwing complete game shutouts since 06'. No big deal.
by cain1rstballothof on Nov 5, 2009 5:14 PM PST up reply actions
Lincecum busted for pot...
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/giants/detail?entry_id=51102&tsp=1
i called this about 3 months ago…
BREAKING NEWS
I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
Mr. F! | comics | art | New Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory
There’s a Fanpost discussing this.
I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
Mr. F! | comics | art | New Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory
while we're speculating...
sabean’s going to give a bad contract to somebody. which is worse ? bay at 4 yr $64 mil, or marlon byrd at 3 yr $18 mil ?
Byrd’s a FAR better contract. At $6 million a year he’s a steal. He’s been worth at least $10 million and 2.4 WAR over each of the last three seasons. His defense is apparently okay, and his bat is good. Bay just has the bat and would be much more expensive.
thank you
byrd can play some cf as well….
Ding ding ding
There is no reason to sign Bay when there are less expensive, nearly as effective players out there.
Joe Martinez: You are cool.
When it's all said and done, America will be remembered for three things: The Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
But Sabean will go with the more expensive, more ineffective players.
"All I know is right now, you comeback and do you dwell on that? I think you're man enough to take it, you're man enough to chew on it, to spit it out and you learn from it. ... I think winners let it go. I think losers dwell on it and talk about it all week and that screws you up for the next opportunity going forward." - Mike Singletary after the 49ers loss to the Vikings
This is why Sabean is no longer a good GM.
Joe Martinez: You are cool.
When it's all said and done, America will be remembered for three things: The Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
I've had a fanpost in the wings
that gives the stats of every player in the class, breakdowns of them, who Sabean will likely sign, who I like, overall position grades, and trade chips/potential trades. Should I post the fanpost, or try to clump it all. It would be like a “Everything you need to know about the offseason” type post, and I don’t think it would work in a comment
Praying that Tim Alderson doesn't come back to bite us
Do it. I’m really looking forward to it. That amount of research is in no way gratuitous.
Joe Martinez: You are cool.
When it's all said and done, America will be remembered for three things: The Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
Trust me
It’s hard. Using espn.com search for every players stats and salary, then writing it
Praying that Tim Alderson doesn't come back to bite us
Try Baseball Reference. It’s got way more stats and is far more efficient.
Joe Martinez: You are cool.
When it's all said and done, America will be remembered for three things: The Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
Salary, though?
Context, people. More context is good. Less context is bad. If you're willing to be reductive, then you're willing to be wrong.
by howtheyscored on Nov 5, 2009 7:32 PM PST up reply actions
Ooh. Good call.
Joe Martinez: You are cool.
When it's all said and done, America will be remembered for three things: The Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
That's why I'm rolling with ESPN right now
it has salary and is convenient
Praying that Tim Alderson doesn't come back to bite us
Thanks for the link
It does have salary. Once I get done writing a short essay, I’ll get back to work on it
Praying that Tim Alderson doesn't come back to bite us
stop teasing and post
you tease. It will give Grant something to write about/steal.
Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."
Nobody puts Bengie in a corner!
by natteringnabob on Nov 5, 2009 7:28 PM PST up reply actions
Not done with it yet
I’m on catchers right now, and the process is pretty long. I’m looking forward to posting it though!
Praying that Tim Alderson doesn't come back to bite us
just as well
no need to get caught in Yankees and choco taco nonsense posts everywhere!
Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."
Nobody puts Bengie in a corner!
by natteringnabob on Nov 5, 2009 7:43 PM PST up reply actions
If all goes as planned this weekend
and I don’t end up with anything wasting my time, it might be up by Sunday
Praying that Tim Alderson doesn't come back to bite us
c – posey
1b – garko/ishikawa
2b – sanchez
3b – sandoval
ss – uribe
lf – lewis/scheirhultz/torres/velez/bowker/free agent
cf – rowand
rf – lewis/scheirhultz/torres/velez/bowker/free agent
Top outfielder wish list (excluding Holliday and Bay, just seems unrealistic):
Chone Figgins
BJ Upton
Carl Crawford
Mike Cameron
Scott Podsednik
Rick Ankiel
Xavier Nady
Holliday and Bay aren’t unrealistic, we just have to increase payroll, which isn’t unrealistic so much as unlikely. Bay, though, is probably a DNW at this point since we’re not the Pussy League and we don’t have a DH.
But, like I said in the other thread, the only one of those guys who is both affordable and good is Mike Cameron. MAYBE Nady (hah I rhymed) but we should not be counting on him to anchor our offense.
and I’ll go ahead and add Mark DeRosa to that list too. I’m sure I’ll catch shit, specifically on Podsednik, Ankiel, and Nady, but I think they’re contributing ballplayers for the right price
DeRosa
hits .250, doesn’t provide OBP, and is on the downside of his career. Do Not Want
Praying that Tim Alderson doesn't come back to bite us
and will demand high salary
Praying that Tim Alderson doesn't come back to bite us
Good news everybody
Abreu is off the market. One less thing to fanpost about!
Praying that Tim Alderson doesn't come back to bite us
People will anyway.
I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
Mr. F! | comics | art | New Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory
I guess that's true...
Praying that Tim Alderson doesn't come back to bite us
I mean, it’s already been mentioned in a Fanshot, a Fanpost, and this Fanpost.
I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
Mr. F! | comics | art | New Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory
we should have a FanPost committee
that makes sure that nobody posts a pile of junk or a CAIN 4 FIELDERZ.
Praying that Tim Alderson doesn't come back to bite us
I know
we can call them “moderators”
Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."
Nobody puts Bengie in a corner!
by natteringnabob on Nov 5, 2009 7:57 PM PST up reply actions
What I'm saying
is that before a FanPost hits “air”, a moderator or somebody like that reviews the post, makes sure it’s not beaten like a dead horse, and makes sure that it is understandably and a good piece of writing. Or it isn’t something like an Abreu post after he’s already resigned
Praying that Tim Alderson doesn't come back to bite us
I’m pretty sure we’d at least have to double their pay.
"The part of the roster where most of the money is spent, though, is on free agents and guys acquired through trade — guys Sabean did play a big role in acquiring. And they are not good. When you get 2/5 of a pitching rotation for free, you would think you could do better with $76 million than to field the league’s worst offense."
-Taliesin September, 2009
I'm willing to quadruple it.
Why do San Francisco teams insist on having terrible offenses? Frank Gore and Pablo Sandoval can't do it all.
I don’t think that SBNation has any kind of pre-post moderation options.
Context, people. More context is good. Less context is bad. If you're willing to be reductive, then you're willing to be wrong.
by howtheyscored on Nov 9, 2009 12:39 PM PST up reply actions
Those guys suck!
I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
Mr. F! | comics | art | New Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory
Fair enough. Wouldn’t take him for more than 6mm a year, 2 years and I doubt we could land him for that. But with a lot of positions up in the air, his versitility is desirable.
Use +reply, dude.
I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
Mr. F! | comics | art | New Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory
He's not worth 6 mill
with have a glut of mediocore guys that can play DeRosa’s positions (2B, 3B, LF, RF). On this team, he isn’t worth much because he isn’t a huge upgrade
Praying that Tim Alderson doesn't come back to bite us
that joke is going to get lost when more people comment
but I think it’s funny
Granted Jason Bay is not a defensive stud in the OF, but anyone think maybe his WAR will look a bit better by getting away from Fenway?
His last full year in Pittsburgh he had a bum knee, the 2 years before that he was only -5 or -6 in the OF and was worth over 5 in WAR for 2 years. After all look at how much better Manny’s defensive UZR looks after getting away from Fenway. He used to be ranked as Adam Dunn bad out there, now he’s around 6 or 7 runs below average. Not 20.
I can’t say I really trust the park adjustment, especially for the OF. But even weirder is an example like Pedro Feliz. How is it that he lost half of his defensive value when he went to Philadelphia?
He’s 34 years old?
HA HA HA LOOK AT ME I'M ALL HAPPY AND STUFF NO REALLY CAN WE STOP WITH THE COOKYMAN IS SAD JOKES?
:-) :-) :-)
That would make sense if the decline was smooth, but he went from 20 to 9 in one year. I know guys can fall off a cliff on offense, but barring an injury, how would it happen on defense?
Why not? Antidotally a lot of player have big years ( either side of the ball) between 32-36 and then just dramatically drop off the rest of their years. We can see it more in hitting because we have a larger more consistent sample body is all.
Who’s brain did you bring me?
Brain SabeanOranother.
‘anecdotal’
Utter frustration and futility.
by Johnny Disaster on Nov 6, 2009 1:51 PM PST up reply actions
He had back surgury no?
Matt Cain: throwing complete game shutouts since 06'. No big deal.
by cain1rstballothof on Nov 6, 2009 10:08 AM PST up reply actions
Isn’t it adjust to league average? So maybe 3rd base defense increased that year
say hey nation is the Ralph Nader of McC.-Xanthan
by say hey nation on Nov 6, 2009 2:30 PM PST up reply actions
He had nagging injuries….
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
GET THAT VORP AND WHIP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!
Time for Plan B
Plan A
The Big Bat Theory — Holliday or Bay — ain’t going to happen
Plan B
Sign Figgins
Trade Rowand for Bradley
Sign Johnson
Garko keeps the dish warm until Posey is ready
Lineup:
Figgins LF
Sanchez 2B
Bradley RF
Panda 3B
Johnson 1B
Garko/Posey C
Torres/Schierholz CF
Renteria SS
Bowker subs when Bradley gets injured
When Johnson gets injured, Panda slides to first, Figgins to 3B, Bowker to LF, or Garko to 1B
Total Salaries: low 90s, assuming:
Figgins: $10 million
Johnson: $6 million
Lincecum: $10 million
Wilson: $5 million
Garko: $2 million
by GiantFaninDodgerLand on Nov 6, 2009 8:39 AM PST reply actions
If you were to sign Figgins (and trading Rowand for Bradley) you’d be better off putting him in CF and starting Lewis (or Bowker) in LF.
Or you could just sign Mike Cameron who’s a better fielder (and hitter) and wouldn’t require the multi-year deal (and could well cost less per year)
Proud parent of Waldis Joaquin!
I was thinking about that also. Just not sure how good a defensive OF Figgins is.
by GiantFaninDodgerLand on Nov 6, 2009 8:57 AM PST up reply actions
It’s difficult to say as I’ve not seen him play OF much and he’s not played all that much OF. When he has played the OF he’s primarily been in CF and has a UZR/150 of -3.5 there. He’s probably a slightly below average CF and an above average RF/LF (not played enough of either to be able to tell statistically)
Proud parent of Waldis Joaquin!
I admit that this plan would lose some defense in CF, except when Torres is playing. While Cameron would be good defensively, it seems like at his age he’s ready for a drop-off.
by GiantFaninDodgerLand on Nov 6, 2009 9:18 AM PST up reply actions
Am I missing something? When did Mike Cameron become a good hitter?
Cameron will be 37 next year, .331 and .342 OBP the past two years …
Figgins will be 32, .367 and .395 OBP the past two years.
OBP is not everything
Mike Cameron’s wOBA’s have consistently been above average. I guess not exactly into the “good” realm, but then again, Chone Figgins isn’t floating that much higher than Cameron.
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
GET THAT VORP AND WHIP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!
Career wOBA of .347 for Cameron and .339 for Figgins, Cameron’s put up a better wOBA than Figgins every year except 2009 and 2007. And for Figgins those games are pretty much outliers, whereas Cameron’s been a consistent hitter for quite some time.
I was only looking at recent years though, mostly because Cammy’s getting up there in years.
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
GET THAT VORP AND WHIP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!
So, Cameron’s been better in 2008, Figgins was better in 2007 and 2009. That’s about as pro-Figgins as you can get (going back further tips the scales more and more toward Cameron), and it’s not all that great for him. Figgins gonna be expensive.
Wait, what’re we arguing about?
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
GET THAT VORP AND WHIP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!
We weren’t arguing, I was backing you up on the first post. On the second one I kind of forgot that but I think we’re both of the opinion that Cameron>Figgins as an option for the Giants. So, nothing. We’re just both tearing Every6thDay apart.
Ok gotcha. Although I wasn’t trying to tear every6thday apart, just wanted to emphasize that slugging matters too
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
GET THAT VORP AND WHIP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!
As I put the pieces back together, I will accept that the Giants should probably add another 37-year old player to its roster.
Garko has never caught in the major leagues and caught less than 100 games in the high minors. I really don’t see that happening.
Oh, and also, according to b-r, Garko through out only 14% of base stealers as a full-time catcher in short season ball. He was never a full-time catcher again after that.
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
Good points, but I guess what I’m getting at is not to spend much or any money on a catcher while waiting for Posey. If he’s not ready in spring training, pick up someone for cheap.
by GiantFaninDodgerLand on Nov 6, 2009 9:23 AM PST up reply actions
If he’s not ready now and has never been ready, why wait for spring to decide he’s still not ready?
Utter frustration and futility.
by Johnny Disaster on Nov 6, 2009 1:52 PM PST up reply actions
What about Whiteside? He’s cheap, he’s already in the organization, and he’s a good defensive catcher. Yeah, his offense might be putrid, but Garko’s defense behind the plate is potentially bad enough to inspire a mass suicide on the pitching staff.
Joe Martinez: You are cool.
When it's all said and done, America will be remembered for three things: The Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
Didn’t Grant just have a main-page post about Rowand for Bradley that reached the nearly inescapable conclusion that such a trade is not happening?
Not that I wouldn’t favor it, but I don’t think it should be a key element of anyone’s rosterbation.
It makes too much sense for both clubs, which is probably why it won’t happen. One can dream though.
by GiantFaninDodgerLand on Nov 6, 2009 9:52 AM PST up reply actions
Well, it makes sense for the Giants. I’m not sure how much sense it makes for the Cubs. Unless Rowand’s bat really got a lot more value by playing in Wrigley (and it might), they’d probably just be better off cutting Bradley.
Supposedly there is a lot of trade interest in Bradley, so I don’t see the Cubs cutting him. Whether the Giants go after him is another matter. Rowand’s value at Wrigley might be enhanced both offensively and defensively, and he’s right-handed, and he’s a good "clubhouse presence.’ All these might be points for the Cubs.
by GiantFaninDodgerLand on Nov 6, 2009 10:12 AM PST up reply actions
Sanchez and Cain are also due arb raises. That pushes you up to at least the mid-$90M range.
Figgins is a big DNW for various reasons that I keep pointing out and other people keep ignoring. He’s not worth the money he’s going to get, we don’t need a 3B/2B, etc.
Garko should not be the starting catcher on a ML team. He’s a first baseman. He hasn’t caught in the majors and starting now, especially on a team “in contention”, is a bad idea.
Other than that you’re pretty OK, though fixing the problems does change the lineup pretty drastically.
According to Cots, Cain is due to make $4.5 million, and Sanchez is still pre-arbitration.
If you don’t sign Figgins, who would you get to lead off?
by GiantFaninDodgerLand on Nov 6, 2009 3:27 PM PST up reply actions
That’s not true. There are certain qualities that make a leadoff hitter other than just OBP. Good contact, speed, and patience are very useful as well.
Matt Cain: throwing complete game shutouts since 06'. No big deal.
by cain1rstballothof on Nov 6, 2009 3:43 PM PST up reply actions
Oh, and as of right now the Giants are really lacking a true leadoff hitter.
Matt Cain: throwing complete game shutouts since 06'. No big deal.
by cain1rstballothof on Nov 6, 2009 3:43 PM PST up reply actions
Sanchez is not pre-arb
San Francisco Giants
Tim Lincecum rhp 2.148*
Ryan Garko 1b 3.091
Brandon Medders rhp 3.074
Jonathan Sanchez lhp 3.071
Brian Wilson rhp 2.169*
http://mlbcontracts.blogspot.com/2001/10/2010-arbitration-eligibles.html
GROUGTHINK ALERT
The first Chester Arthur fanboy ever.
He’s getting a raise to $4.5M from $2.9M, I didn’t know if you were including that because it matters. Sanchez is arb-eligible for the first time this year.
And cain is right, we don’t really have a leadoff guy. Fred Lewis would be a good option if he were actually allowed to play, but Torres could work as well.
Dye is officially available.
The Sox bought out his option.
Why do San Francisco teams insist on having terrible offenses? Frank Gore and Pablo Sandoval can't do it all.
No surprises there, Dye isn’t worth anywhere near $12M. Lets hope we stay well clear of him for obvious reasons.
Proud parent of Waldis Joaquin!
You’d rather have Johnny Damon then? Because I’m pretty sure that’s the choice that Sabes is trying to make right now.
I’d much rather have Damon as he’s a better player and an upgrade over what we have (which i don’t think Dye is). Of course i don’t want Damon either as he’s going to get a contract that’s pretty unfavourable but of the two i’d rather have him.
Proud parent of Waldis Joaquin!
Yeah, Damon’s definitely the better player. I suppose you’re probably right that Damon, even if he’s way too expensive, at least makes the team better, whereas Dye, even if he was a “bargain,” might actually make the team worse.
Wouldn’t it be nice if we didn’t have a GM that has us all sitting around wondering which dumb FA deal he’s going to make. Not whether there’s going to be a dumb deal, even. Just which one.
Dye would make us worse. You just know he’d be playing RF, while Damon would be in LF, so Dye’s already god-awful defense would be magnified and Damon’s might actually be diminished. But I’m not even convinced Dye can hit anymore; his slash line from last year isn’t good, he’s been diminishing for quite a while, his walks are up but so are his strikeouts (and his BB% looks like an outlier, while his K% looks in line with past performance)…I just don’t think he’s good at anything anymore.
And might I add that last year he posted a negative WAR, and he’s never been higher than 3.2 WAR?
or Matsui
WORLD SERIES MVP DOWN THE STRETCH NERDS!
Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."
Nobody puts Bengie in a corner!
by natteringnabob on Nov 7, 2009 6:06 AM PST up reply actions
And Mike Cameron is definitely not going back to the Brewers
They just traded for another CF, Carlos Gomez.
Why do San Francisco teams insist on having terrible offenses? Frank Gore and Pablo Sandoval can't do it all.
I’m glad as I think Cameron would be a good pickup for us.
Surprised that the Brewers traded Hardy so early as i would have imagined a lot of teams inquiring about him this off-season. And Carlos Gomez, whilst a good defensive CF, is hardly a great return for him.
Proud parent of Waldis Joaquin!
Cameron’s stats look pretty darn good.
Any reason for his fluctuating UZR/150 (2006:-0.6, 2007: -10.4, 2008:+15.6, 2009:10.3) beyond that it isn’t a particularly good statistic?
‘06 &’07 = CF in San Diego.
‘08 &’09 = CF in Milwaukee.
CF in SD >>> CF in Milwaukee.
I would not look at him as a centerfielder in the NL West. But RF at Mays Field he should do just fine. Of coarse that bings up other issues but ttah si different topic.
Who’s brain did you bring me?
Brain SabeanOranother.
Thanks for the insight.
Seeing Cameron’s stats makes me wonder why he hasn’t garnered more attention as a suitable OF power bat for the Giants.
Power?
I think that will drop once he is out of the NL Central. Miller park, Huston, Cincy and even Wrigley are some rather hitter friendly yards. But is makes NON Outs at higher rate compared to most of our position players ( his OBP last season would be 3rd best on the ’09 Giants; 13 points above the 4th best) and that should stay valuable to us.
I can’t get Fangraphs to load right now so I can’t state anything on his plate discipline but he may not swing at more pitches than he sees ( Swing%). If that is true that would be useful as well.
Who’s brain did you bring me?
Brain SabeanOranother.
the NL west has Coors and Arizona which are the two best hitters parks though.
We're all basically Pedro Feliz.
In referance to Power that is 18 games of PA’s in hitter favorable conditions vs almost 125 games of PA’s in hitter friendly conditions. To me that is not a small difference.
Who’s brain did you bring me?
Brain SabeanOranother.
But AT&T isn’t a pitchers’ park for RHH at all, if anything it’s a slight hitters’ park, so you’ve got:
- 81 games in a neutral park/moderate hitters’ park.
- 18 games in hitters’ parks (Chase and Coors).
- 18 games in pitchers’ parks (Dodger and Petco).
RHH should do just fine in the NL West.
HA HA HA LOOK AT ME I'M ALL HAPPY AND STUFF NO REALLY CAN WE STOP WITH THE COOKYMAN IS SAD JOKES?
:-) :-) :-)
RHH should, especially with day games, do well in Mays Field and I am not disputing that. I am trying to say the drop off in the degree RHH “friendliness” ( for lack of a better term) between being a Brewer & playing the NL Central and being a Giant and playing the NL West is real and significant.
Who’s brain did you bring me?
Brain SabeanOranother.
That seems to me to be a good reason to avoid him given the size of AT%T even in RF and the lack of good hitting. He’s OK, but most of his supposed value is as a defensive player.
You wish you were named Frederick Deshaun...
How do you figure? Are you think the CF in MIller is smaller than RF in Mays Field?
Who’s brain did you bring me?
Brain SabeanOranother.
I know RF isn’t typically considered bigger/harder than CF, but in our park it’s more difficult than most, and once he is moved you have to start looking at positional adjustments.
Miller Park’s CF is atypically small, though, right? Or am I getting bad info from somewhere?
You wish you were named Frederick Deshaun...
Compared to the NL West parks? Yes, Sort of. The reason I say sort of is the ’09 Brewers had 1160 inning in RF with Corey Hart (930 innings -5.1 UZR, -9.1 UZR/150) Frank Catalanotto ( 230 Innings, – 1.3 UZR, -6.0 UZR/150). In Left Field they had Ray Braun (1364 Innings, -14.4 UZR, -13.6 UZR/150). This would force the CF to cover a larger than just the minim area. In the end though you might be correct that LF could be the best fitting location but I would be very unhappy if the signed Cameron and did not they try him RF for a while.
In the interest of Disclosure I am still not on the Cameron bandwagon. But he and Holiday ( No brainer IMHO) are the only outfielders (if the team is paying anything significant to get) I would have any interest in on the 2010 squad.
Who’s brain did you bring me?
Brain SabeanOranother.
It is a good statistic. I don’t understand why people think defense should be a consistent number. Batting stats fluctuate every year, why wouldn’t fielding stats do the same?
Juan Carlos Perez, please start hitting.
Good trade for the Twins.
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
I don't know
If it adds a year of cheap service time, like was speculated, it should have added a bunch of value. I’m not sure how those shenanigans turned out though.
Juan Carlos Perez, please start hitting.
It didn’t b/c he came back up b/c he was filing a grievance
say hey nation is the Ralph Nader of McC.-Xanthan
by say hey nation on Nov 6, 2009 2:32 PM PST up reply actions
Agreed
This is one of those deals I wish we could have outbid.
Juan Carlos Perez, please start hitting.
Crud.
I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
Mr. F! | comics | art | New Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory
Hermida to Boston
I’m tempted to say he was cheaply had, but his performance has been resoundingly bleh.
Please hit better, Randy Winn.
I’d rather have Hermida or Gomez than Schierholtz, Bowker, Torres, Velez, Rowand…..
Matt Cain: throwing complete game shutouts since 06'. No big deal.
by cain1rstballothof on Nov 6, 2009 10:11 AM PST reply actions
Pedro Feliz's option was declined by the Phillies
Just sayin’.
Why do San Francisco teams insist on having terrible offenses? Frank Gore and Pablo Sandoval can't do it all.
Oh God no. Pedro Feliz was the one player on the Giants I absolutely, flat-out hated (okay, Benitez and Felix Rodriguez too towards the end). Every time he’d get up in a clutch situation it was flyout, strikeout, or foulout. Sure, he’d deliver when you had a five-run lead, or when you were losing by ten, but if we were losing 2-1 with two outs in the bottom of the (late inning) with RISP the guy coudn’t do anything.
One has to wonder. . .
. . . about Rowand. The three key data can be expressed as walks rate, batting average, and power; Rowand’s power has been there (ratio of TB to H); his walks rate (never much to begin with) is flat; and his BABIP is flat, too. What has killed him over the last couple of years is that he is putting materially fewer balls into play because his SO rate has jumped—greatly last year—I mean, lookit:
2001 .196
2002 .168
2003 .125
2004 .172
2005 .183
2006 .172
2007 .174
2008 .206
2009 .229
His SO rate prior to SF was .173, and pretty consistent; in two years in SF, it’s .217, which is a whopping 25% increase. Something is wrong there. Is it his vision? Does he need lenses or spectacles? Is the hitting background so much worse here? Or is it just attitude? (I doubt it’s chance, because it’s consistent and getting worse.)
Rowand is not the answer to a maiden’s prayer at the plate (nor is he a Gold Glover in any sane world), and neither he nor anyone else will be able to do elsewhere what they can in Philadelphia’s, um, remarkable ball park; but he could be a deal better than he has been so far for SF.
Professional baseball analyst since 1980.
he’s old and can’t pick up the rotation on the slider any more. I’d put 100 Frankenfrancs on it.
Please hit better, Randy Winn.
maybe
or maybe we just teach people to hack at slop. It’s not just Rowand.
by Giant Voodoo on Nov 7, 2009 11:50 AM PST up reply actions
Mind, though . . .
. . . that’s not equivalent to a divorce. Teams often do that so that they can renegotiate a deal at a lower price (Freddy who?). Time will tell.
Professional baseball analyst since 1980.
I was talking to a friend who's a big phillies fan
And he mentioned that there have been some rumors about the phillies shopping jayson werth in the trade market. He has one more year left on his contract.
The phillies needs are obviously in the bullpen, so I proposed a Brian Wilson / Sergio Romo for Jayson Werth trade.
Thoughts?
Why do San Francisco teams insist on having terrible offenses? Frank Gore and Pablo Sandoval can't do it all.
Or on second thought
Keep Romo. I would do BWheez for Werth straight up though.
Why do San Francisco teams insist on having terrible offenses? Frank Gore and Pablo Sandoval can't do it all.
a werthy trade but i smell dodger on him. As much as I like Wilson he is overrated and I would trade him just so he stops that annoying show of his.
by Giant Voodoo on Nov 7, 2009 11:48 AM PST up reply actions
not impressed
with Jackass Werth circling the bases and touching home on a long flyball out.
Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."
Nobody puts Bengie in a corner!
by natteringnabob on Nov 7, 2009 12:39 PM PST up reply actions
Pass
I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
Mr. F! | comics | art | New Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory
Hmmm
Werth in right, Cameron in center, Rowand/Lewis in left, with Nate coming off the bench?
Hmm…
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
GET THAT VORP AND WHIP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!
I’d probably do this, based on what Werth’s contract looks like.
Merkin Valdez? Manuel Mateo? A rose by any other name...
Actually, it looks like the Phillies only have one more year of Werth. I dunno if Wilson would be werth it. LOLOLOL
Merkin Valdez? Manuel Mateo? A rose by any other name...
No way the Phillies do this
say hey nation is the Ralph Nader of McC.-Xanthan
by say hey nation on Nov 7, 2009 5:47 PM PST up reply actions
It contains what would have been a half dozen rosterbation posts!
No, I would not touch it would my hands either.
Who’s brain did you bring me?
Brain SabeanOranother.
So what your saying is we need a new sock?
/nods
I’ve looked at the new stufff yet. I tend to look at old threads , go to the shots then settle in on the posts.
Who’s brain did you bring me?
Brain SabeanOranother.
They’re all by people who aren’t really regulars. I’ll try to make the next one more blatantly obvious.
I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
Mr. F! | comics | art | New Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory
Do you mean this one?
Cause if you read it, I mention that it’s for both.
I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
Mr. F! | comics | art | New Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory
MLBTR releases their top 50 FAs and Predictions where they'll go
They predict Nick Johnson to the Giants, and for JBay and Figgins to stay with their teams. Holliday to the Mets is also predicted.
Thoughts?
Why do San Francisco teams insist on having terrible offenses? Frank Gore and Pablo Sandoval can't do it all.
hmmmm
Tejada back to the A’s
#1 threat to America: Pandas
Also, Tim Lincecum
Adopted Father: Tyler Graham
Official McPokeMaster
Registered Velezbian and supporter of Fredemption
by GrahamCrakalaka on Nov 8, 2009 10:11 PM PST up reply actions
If the Giants end up only signing Nick Johnson from that list, I will be quite pleased.
If they do that in conjuction with Rowand+Velez for Bradley, I will be ecstatic.
You wish you were named Frederick Deshaun...
Let's go Nats!
Or Mets. Or Long Island Ducks, for that matter.
Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."
Nobody puts Bengie in a corner!
by natteringnabob on Nov 9, 2009 10:18 PM PST up reply actions
Cameron back to the Pad’s to play CF surprises me. He UZR numbers there in ‘06 &’07 were not that encourageing ( in the negitives) and really i would expect teh Pad’s to bespending any veteran recylce money on pitchers that might be flipped at dead line.
Thome to the A’s makes a nice bit a sense to me.
I expect Uribe is more likely to end up on the Phil’s or the Yanks as very well paid bench depth instead of the M’s as their bench depth. If signing with the M’s for bench depth he might as well stay in SF and out of the Safe. The Safe is very unkind to mortal RHB.
Over all nice list IMHO.
Who’s brain did you bring me?
Brain SabeanOranother.
Possible deal between Arizona and Toronto
would swap Overbay and Snyder
#1 threat to America: Pandas
Also, Tim Lincecum
Adopted Father: Tyler Graham
Official McPokeMaster
Registered Velezbian and supporter of Fredemption
by GrahamCrakalaka on Nov 8, 2009 10:24 PM PST reply actions
Optimism
#1 threat to America: Pandas
Also, Tim Lincecum
Adopted Father: Tyler Graham
Official McPokeMaster
Registered Velezbian and supporter of Fredemption
by GrahamCrakalaka on Nov 8, 2009 10:52 PM PST up reply actions
Meh. Optimism leads to signing aged vets, believing they can produce like they did that one year a few years back… believing that bunting more will lead to more runs… that a team from the NL West will be competitive in the playoffs/versus an AL team… that Sabes will make savvy moves intended to improve the team rather than keep his job… whatever. I love baseball and the Giants, but I’m not getting on the O-Train next season. Gonna try to ride out the next two years.
I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
Mr. F! | comics | art | New Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory
You win again, nature GrahamCrakalaka!
#1 threat to America: Pandas
Also, Tim Lincecum
Adopted Father: Tyler Graham
Official McPokeMaster
Registered Velezbian and supporter of Fredemption
by GrahamCrakalaka on Nov 9, 2009 9:55 PM PST up reply actions
Eh
The Giants were a couple pieces away from the playoffs this year.
And once you make it to the playoffs, anything can happen. Especially with a one-two like Tim and Matt.
Why do San Francisco teams insist on having terrible offenses? Frank Gore and Pablo Sandoval can't do it all.
I don’t really buy that argument any more. Especially with the Yankees always lurking and the Phillies actually having a very, very good team from top to bottom that does a lot of things well. The Giants have a couple of pieces but mostly glaring holes (TWSS?) and not many things they do very well. Also, it doesn’t occur to me that the organization is trying to build a GOOD TEAM THAT WILL WIN THE WORLD SERIES but a team of savvy guys who hustle, get after it and battle. That’s not winning, it’s admirable toiling.
The Yankees are quite formidable. But they have the same problem as the Phillies.
No. 1 starter: Sabathia, Lee
No. 2 starter: Burnett?, Martinez?
No. 3 starter: Pettitte?, Hamels? (okay, so Hamels is pretty good, but 2009 was unhappy for him)
No. 4 starter: ??, ??
Bullpen: Mariano Rivera, ??
After their aces, both teams have pretty serious question marks in their rotations. They can pitch very, very well, but they can pitch very, very badly. They both have extremely shaky (at best) bullpens. Games, especially playoff games, are won on pitching and defense.
Of course, their lineups are so incredibly amazing that it really doesn’t matter that their starters are unreliable. On the other hand, when Ryan Howard laid an egg during the Series, even Utley’s ridiculous hotness couldn’t completely carry the offense. And the entire Yankees lineup hit the snot out of the ball. The Giants would have a decent shot to win the Series against either of those teams simply on the strength of the pitching staff and ’pen.
We beat the phillies in the season series, and we played them close even in the games we lost.
Why do San Francisco teams insist on having terrible offenses? Frank Gore and Pablo Sandoval can't do it all.
I that’s why we had the LOLineups every night.
"All I know is right now, you comeback and do you dwell on that? I think you're man enough to take it, you're man enough to chew on it, to spit it out and you learn from it. ... I think winners let it go. I think losers dwell on it and talk about it all week and that screws you up for the next opportunity going forward." - Mike Singletary after the 49ers loss to the Vikings
Oops
I think
"All I know is right now, you comeback and do you dwell on that? I think you're man enough to take it, you're man enough to chew on it, to spit it out and you learn from it. ... I think winners let it go. I think losers dwell on it and talk about it all week and that screws you up for the next opportunity going forward." - Mike Singletary after the 49ers loss to the Vikings
Dumpster Dive!
Looks like Nick Green is now a free agent. He is going to under go surgery fora bulging disk this winter. Yes, he is over 30, he swings at everything. Is he out Utily MI if (when) the Giants don’t re-sign Uribe?
/ cackles
Who’s brain did you bring me?
Brain SabeanOranother.
Chone Figgins is now a Type-A FA
Which means that if he’s offered Arb by the Angels and refuses, any team that signs him will lost a draft pick.
Does this make him not worth it to the McCoven?
Why do San Francisco teams insist on having terrible offenses? Frank Gore and Pablo Sandoval can't do it all.
Too me it is more the fact the Giants have setteld on a 2nd baseman and they see him playing 1100 innings. 2nd base would have provided the largest impact for Figgens and the other positions and roster combonations are just not as tempting to me. The pick just seals my like of intrest.
Who’s brain did you bring me?
Brain SabeanOranother.
I agree. He isn’t a piece that will get us to the playoffs
say hey nation is the Ralph Nader of McC.-Xanthan
by say hey nation on Nov 9, 2009 1:00 PM PST up reply actions
Our New Scrub Catcher?
Zaun has hit the market.
Who’s brain did you bring me?
Brain SabeanOranother.
not named Molina
left handed
not terrible
gimme gimme!
Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."
Nobody puts Bengie in a corner!
by natteringnabob on Nov 9, 2009 10:19 PM PST up reply actions
Overpay for Bay and Holiday. You make the money back with the playoffs, increased ticket sales, ratings, merchandise, and other things that come with having a winning team
At USC we're not snobs, we're just better than you.
What do we think of Duchscherer?. Outside of the while depression thing, I always loved watching him pitch. I think he might make a good low cost No. 5.
"Being a McCoven is like being a member of the Green party. It’s powerlessness is part of the appeal." - oldjacket
I’d be down for signing him.
I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
Mr. F! | comics | art | New Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory
If only to see how many ways n00bs could misspell his name.
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
Doukesherre
I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
Mr. F! | comics | art | New Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory
Duke of Sherry.
"Being a McCoven is like being a member of the Green party. It’s powerlessness is part of the appeal." - oldjacket
Duckscrivener
Utter frustration and futility.
by Johnny Disaster on Nov 9, 2009 8:05 PM PST up reply actions
Him or Harden
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
GET THAT VORP AND WHIP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!
Acquisitions
Nick Johnson: 2 years/$14 million
Milton Bradley for Aaron Rowand
Justin Duchscherer: 1 year/$2 million+$2 million in incentives for starts
Roster (salary figures are in millions):
Buster Posey C $0.4
Nick Johnson 1B $7
Freddy Sanchez 2B $6
Edgar Renteria SS $10
Pablo Sandoval 3B $0.4
John Bowker LF $0.4
Nate Schierholtz CF $0.4
Milton Bradley RF $10.5
Ryan Garko 1B $2
Eli Whiteside C $0.4
Kevin Frandsen INF $0.5
Ryan Rohlinger INF $0.4
Fred Lewis OF $0.5
Andres Torres OF $0.4
Tim Lincecum SP $8
Barry Zito SP $18.5
Matt Cain SP $4.5
Justin Duchscherer SP $2-4
Jonathan Sanchez SP $2
Brian Wilson CL $4
Jeremy Affeldt SU $4.5
Sergio Romo SU $0.4
Waldis Joaquin RP $0.4
Dan Runzler RP $0.4
Brandon Medders RP $1
Total Payroll: $85-$87 depending on Duchscherer’s incentives
Lineup:
Schierholtz
Johnson
Sandoval
Bradley
Bowker
Posey
Sanchez
Renteria
Pitcher
We come in slightly under last years’ payroll, but not enough to land a big bat like Holliday. If we’re in contention by midseason we should be able to take on a little payroll to fill a hole.
If Bradley doesn’t work out, Lewis gets the RF job. When Johnson gets hurt, Garko becomes the starting 1B and Ishikawa gets promoted from AAA to be the backup 1B.
Schierholtz isn’t really the prototype leadoff hitter with his low OBP, but there really isn’t an ideal leadoff guy besides Lewis, and I’m afraid to give him the centerfield job. I suppose Bradley could play CF and Lewis could play RF, but if Nate can hit .280/.330/.400, with his speed that should be good enough.
Sanchez’ positioning isn’t great either; he could just as easily fit into the #2 spot. But his high-average low-OBP skillset is better at driving guys in than setting the table. Moving him to #7 also gives more ABs to the better hitters ahead of him.
Garko is expendable. If we can flip him for prospects I’d be happier having Ishikawa as a defensive replacement. The only downside is we’d lose a right-handed bat in a lineup full of lefties.
But overall, I think this is a contender. We’ve replaced Rowand and Winn with Bowker and Bradley, both better hitters in nearly every regard. A full year of Sanchez, Johnson’s .400 OBP and Renteria not being hurt are all improvements over last year. Posey over Molina is definitely better. The successful rotation and ‘pen from last year are mostly intact, possibly improved. Duchscherer’s been a good pitcher in the past and as a #4 starter he’s more than qualified. Runzler and Joaquin replacing Howry and Miller provide the much-needed second lefty and fireballer. Joe Martinez can replace Frandsen if we need another arm in the bullpen.
Best Case Scenario
After adding:
- Sabean managing to get Bengie Molina to decline arb
I see Velez is gone. Traded for prospects!
You wish you were named Frederick Deshaun...
I still firmly believe that RowandForBradley is not happening. OTOH, saw an item on espn today that speculated on a rumored three-way deal that would have the Cubs getting Luis Castillo for Bradley. If that were acceptable to the Cubs, Rownad would, I think, be even more appealing.
It’s cute how your roster doesn’t have Velez but does have Fred Lewis.
Ishikawa is out of options; he cannot be sent to AAA without being waived first, and if he were waived I’m fairly certain someone would pick him up.
Who would pick Ishi up? I mean what franchise has very little going at frist base in the upper part of its system and would opt fora glove guy with a low OBP? It could happen but i would think the odds are slim.
Who’s brain did you bring me?
Brain SabeanOranother.
by daveinexile on Nov 10, 2009 10:10 AM PST up reply actions
The A’s? Maybe M’s?
Matt Cain: throwing complete game shutouts since 06'. No big deal.
by cain1rstballothof on Nov 10, 2009 12:57 PM PST up reply actions
I could see the White Sox picking him up
They could move Konerko to DH and they have no good young 1B in their system
Grab Some Pine Meat!
Thank you.
Who’s brain did you bring me?
Brain SabeanOranother.
by daveinexile on Nov 19, 2009 10:26 AM PST up reply actions
I've been thinking of also trading Velez to the ChiSox
Because they need a leadoff hitter and LF and Velez learned how to hit in AAA
Grab Some Pine Meat!
Toronto nixed the deal for Bradley; they don’t want him.
Why is that cute? I don’t want Velez. I know he’s getting a starting job or at least a platoon, but we’re not going to get Bradley or Duchscherer and maybe not Johnson so who cares?
I didn’t know Ishi was out of options. That just makes trading Garko a higher priority. If we can slip him past the other teams and into AAA that’d be optimal, though I don’t see it happening. Ishi’s a pretty valuable player considering his glove (he and Garko we both worth 0.8 WAR last year, and I know teams overvalue offense, but still). We may have to use Garko/Johnson till Panda has to move to first.
Why is that cute? I don’t want Velez.
It’s cute because it’s not happening. The Giants “brain trust” apparently loves Velez and hates Lewis. I don’t disagree that keeping Lewis and putting Velez (does he have options left?) in Fresno is the right move — but Sabean and Bochy are not going to do that. More likely is that Lewis will be non-tendered, and meet Eugenio Velez, your San Francisco Giants’ starting left fielder.
Duke for $2 Million? Really? The Red Sox or someone else will give him more than that I bet.
Matt Cain: throwing complete game shutouts since 06'. No big deal.
by cain1rstballothof on Nov 10, 2009 12:56 PM PST up reply actions
3 Ideas = Tridea?
#1 threat to America: Pandas
Also, Tim Lincecum
Adopted Father: Tyler Graham
Official McPokeMaster
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by GrahamCrakalaka on Nov 9, 2009 10:53 PM PST reply actions
I will say this. I have been following Pinstripe Alley since the WS to see what kind of moronic excuse they have, some of them are pretty good (i.e. Giambi, Pavano, Wright, Weaver and many other UNDERperfromered). One thing I have noticed is that their front page is worse than our fanposts with rosterbation.
say hey nation is the Ralph Nader of McC.-Xanthan
LOL
San Francisco feels it has some flexibility to pursue help for its woeful lineup because Pedro Sandoval could play first or third base and the recently re-signed Freddy Sanchez could play second or third.
PABLO SANDOVAL IS PEDRO FELIZ IN A FAT SUIT!!!!!!!!ONE
#1 threat to America: Pandas
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Adopted Father: Tyler Graham
Official McPokeMaster
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by GrahamCrakalaka on Nov 10, 2009 6:02 PM PST up reply actions
Branyan rejects the Mariner’s offer
Nick Johnson alternative?
Why do San Francisco teams insist on having terrible offenses? Frank Gore and Pablo Sandoval can't do it all.
I wanted him before this year, but I’m skeptical about him now.
I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
Mr. F! | comics | art | New Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory
Red's cutting payroll
Anyone good among those bad contracts? Per MLBTR.
Insanity is just a state of mind.
Votto please.
Utter frustration and futility.
by Johnny Disaster on Nov 11, 2009 8:05 AM PST up reply actions
I would frickin love Votto!
#1 threat to America: Pandas
Also, Tim Lincecum
Adopted Father: Tyler Graham
Official McPokeMaster
Registered Velezbian and supporter of Fredemption
by GrahamCrakalaka on Nov 11, 2009 12:59 PM PST up reply actions
He LIKE likes him now.
Utter frustration and futility.
by Johnny Disaster on Nov 11, 2009 1:23 PM PST up reply actions
BREAKING NEWZ!!!
Votto is Canadian !!!!
#1 threat to America: Pandas
Also, Tim Lincecum
Adopted Father: Tyler Graham
Official McPokeMaster
Registered Velezbian and supporter of Fredemption
by GrahamCrakalaka on Nov 11, 2009 1:21 PM PST reply actions
Sometimes, I just absolutely hate Brian Sabean
The Giants, who were rumored to be interested in dealing either Aaron Rowand or Barry Zito, aren’t willing to do a “bad contracts” swap for Bradley.
“A deal like that? For a player like that?” Giants general manager Brian Sabean said. “No. Is that succinct enough? I don’t know that addition by subtraction would work. Smarter people than us have tried that.”
Lol at “Smarter people than us”
"Being a McCoven is like being a member of the Green party. It’s powerlessness is part of the appeal." - oldjacket
Its powerlessness…
Needs less apostrophe.
Why couldn't McCovey have hit the ball just three feet higher??
It’s a direct quote, please forward all complaints to oldjacket.
"Being a McCoven is like being a member of the Green party. It’s powerlessness is part of the appeal." - oldjacket
It must be November...
This is that familiar time of year when Brian Sabean makes a point of identifying any available hitters that could actually provide significant help in the Giants’ lineup, and issues a bold proclamation stating, “We’ll be looking at every available hitter who could help the Giants next year. Except for (name of bona fide hitter). Yeah, you can just go ahead and cross (name of bona fide hitter) off your list right now, because there ain’t no way, no how, not in a MILLION YEARS I’m even going to TRY to sign/trade for (name of bona fide hitter)!”
Yeah, I’m pretty sure that every year, when Brian Sabean puts together his offseason checklist, the #1 item on that checklist is: “Crush Tobias’ dreams of a decent hitter being added to the Giants’ lineup.”
Why couldn't McCovey have hit the ball just three feet higher??
Why get a decent hitter when you could get 2 or 3 aging players with veteran savvy??
"All I know is right now, you comeback and do you dwell on that? I think you're man enough to take it, you're man enough to chew on it, to spit it out and you learn from it. ... I think winners let it go. I think losers dwell on it and talk about it all week and that screws you up for the next opportunity going forward." - Mike Singletary after the 49ers loss to the Vikings
He's Bonafide!
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
-------
PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game currently in early planning stages.
I'd also like to point out
I said this on October 31st:
and this on November 8th:
and Brian Sabean said this in a piece dated November 11th. Where’s my prize?
Giants interested in Igarashi
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2009/11/giants-pirates-interested-in-igarashi.html
Japanese relief pitcher.
If there’s one thing that Sabes seems to have a second nature about, it’s pitching, or relief pitching more specifically. I trust him on 99% of bullpen signings, plus Ig seems like a great player.
Why do San Francisco teams insist on having terrible offenses? Frank Gore and Pablo Sandoval can't do it all.
Cool
I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
Mr. F! | comics | art | New Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory
The 30-year-old has spent his entire 11-year career with the Tokyo Yakult Swallows, posting a 3.25 ERA with 630 strikeouts in 570 IP over 507 appearances. He’s hooked on with agent Arn Tellem, who also represents Hideki Matsui. Patrick profiled Igarashi back in May. At 98.75 mph, Igarashi holds the record for the fastest pitch thrown by a Japanese pitcher in a NPB game.
I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
Mr. F! | comics | art | New Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory
Why do I keep thinking about Alex Gordon?
by InTimmyWeTrust on Nov 12, 2009 10:34 AM PST reply actions
That’s a good question
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
GET THAT VORP AND WHIP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!
Flash Gordon?
"Being a McCoven is like being a member of the Green party. It’s powerlessness is part of the appeal." - oldjacket
Savior of the universe!
WHY IS BOCOCK?!
by Lars The Wanderer on Nov 13, 2009 8:03 AM PST up reply actions
As long as we’ve discussed Duchscherer and Bedard…
Anybody have any interest in Ben Sheets?
You wish you were named Frederick Deshaun...
Is he even throwing on flat ground yet?
I am pretty sure I saw, somewhere in the blizzard of winter meetings press releases, no one has heard from him or his agent for a while now.
Who’s brain did you bring me?
Brain SabeanOranother.
I think of the “oft-injured” pitchers, I’d probably consider Harden first, then Duke, Sheets and Bedard
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
GET THAT VORP AND WHIP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!
I would have no issue with any of those three for a NOT Stupid Commitment™. I am fine with Penny on 1 year or 1 year and a club option. I would keep my eye on what happens to Micah Owens as well. I think he is a super 2 and if the Reds are realy near their cieling do they non tender him? The Giants should be able to do well for the B.O.R. slot this winter.
Who’s brain did you bring me?
Brain SabeanOranother.
He could hot clean up for us.
You can't solve your problems with the same level of thinking that created the problems - Albert Einstein to Brian Sabean
I dunno. It gets pretty cold in SF.
I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
Mr. F! | comics | art | New Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory
Saw some Yahoo article regarding Uggla
I’m sure all of us here has man-crushes on Danny boy with his annual 30 HR power as a 2B and he seems like a gamer (just don’t tell Scott). But what will it take for the Marlins to trade him here? The main incentive is they’ll avoid paying him megabucks like they always do but I’m sure they don’t want scrubs in return such as Velez although his Youtube highlight reel was spectacular.
I’ll suggest the Giants package ‘nearly perfect’ Sanchez, Fr(esno)andsen and a couple prospects and hope the Marlins will bite. They will then sign Penny to be the 4th S{ and let Pussytass get a shot as the 5th SP before the MadBum era.
Win the inning.
They won’t bite. They’re getting rid of Uggla to clear salary, and Sanchez isn’t a lot cheaper than Uggla (assuming he is cheaper, which he probably will be). They probably don’t want a throwaway prospect like Frandsen either. Maybe Lewis+AA starter/AAA reliever will get it done. The Marlins need pitching and their outfield is by no means spectacular.
Calendar check!!
This winter John Sanchez > > Uggla.
J. Sanchez is under team control for 3 more seasons compared to Uggla’s 2.
Uggla made more money last year then Sanchez will probably get this year. $7MM -$9MM.
There are more teams that can use J. Sanchez then can use a Uggla.
Who’s brain did you bring me?
Brain SabeanOranother.
I don't think we'd have to give up Sanchez
It’s pretty obvious the marlins don’t want to pay him money.
So what they’re looking for is young, cheap, potential talent. We have 1238 young, possibly MLB ready outfielders along with young utility men like downs and frandsen. why not package them up?
Give -peace- Ryan Garko a chance.
/rosterbates
Trade Velez for some 3B in low A.
Offer arbitration to Garko.
Sign Nick Johnson to a 1-year deal.
Sign Erik Bedard to a 1-year deal.
Bring the Z-Game to SF with a 1-year deal.
vs. RHP
Lewis RF
Posey C
Sandoval 3B
Johnson 1B
Bowker/Schierholtz LF
Rowand CF
Sanchez 2B
Renteria SS
vs. LHP
Posey C
Johnson 1B
Sandoval 3B
Garko LF
Bowker/Schierholtz RF
Rowand CF
Sanchez 2B
Renteria SS
Lincecum
Zito
Cain
Bedard
Sanchez
You wish you were named Frederick Deshaun...
I'll take it
Except for your batting orders. They’re a little weird. Also Garko should not play LF. SSS but MAN those are ugly numbers.
You doin it wrong…needs more fanpostyness
and who is Z?
say hey nation is the Ralph Nader of McC.-Xanthan
by say hey nation on Nov 16, 2009 7:19 AM PST up reply actions
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