Should Giants offer Bengie arbitration?
by fantastical on Nov 30, 2009 4:52 PM PST
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PrintPreface: I don't totally understand arbitration, so I may need to be corrected on a few things.
It seems to me in the Giant's best interest to offer Bengie arb. At best, Bengie is signed by another team regardless and the Giants score a draft pick (the other team's first round pick?) and can set aside the resources for somebody like Torrealba.
Worst case scenario, other teams decline to give up a pick and Bengie returns for a year, cheap. I'm not totally opposed to that provided he bats in the bottom third and the Giants still attempt to address their dire need for guys that can get on base.
Does Bengie have to first decline arbitration to be available as a free agent? Or, if no other team signs him, he then enters arbitration talks with the giants? It's a bit confusing for me, but seems like arb is a good deal for the Giants.
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he’ll return for a year but he won’t be cheap if he accepts arb. He’ll probably cost somewhere between 6 and 8 million bucks.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
It seems as though if the giants offered him a low number he wouldn’t have tons of leverage to get it closer to what he wants in the hearings, given his performance last year, age, lack of interest from other teams, etc.
Seems as though Bengie’s depending on a competitive market more than his actual worth to get the kind of deal he wants.
The arbitration guys essentially like three offensive stats: BA, HR, RBi. If Bengie submitted something like $7 mil and the Giants offered less than that (especially much less, if you’re think he’ll cost $2-3 mil next year), the arbitrator will certainly go with Bengie.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
I mean the trouble with this
if we re-sign Bengie whether via arbitration or otherwise, we won’t have the money to upgrade the rest of the lineup so that he’ll only be an option to hit 6-7 or whatever you want him to hit.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
But, with our FO being smart and all, can’t they cut Bengie?
say hey nation is the Ralph Nader of McC.-Xanthan
by say hey nation on Nov 30, 2009 5:20 PM PST up reply actions
They’d still have to pay him…
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
I thought arb contracts aren’t guaranteed.
say hey nation is the Ralph Nader of McC.-Xanthan
by say hey nation on Nov 30, 2009 5:26 PM PST up reply actions
Yes, technically
But my understanding is that not paying an arb contract is a bush league move that reflects badly on the organization around the league.
GROUGTHINK ALERT
The first Chester Arthur fanboy ever.
that 6 or 7 mil
isn’t going to get us much of an offense. I say offer it, he will probably get a 2-year deal somewhere, and draft picks are draft picks.
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
-------
PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game currently in early planning stages.
Depends on whether they're going to get anone else
Bengie and another $6-7M player are probably < a $12-14M player
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
We might be able to sign Chone Figgins
If Sabe really wants tobe successful, he will have to spend some extra money. We could sign figgins for around 8-10 million annually for 3 years. resign Uribe, and Howry and Noah Lowry.
I think we could get Lowry for a steal and I think he could rebound and be successful again. Also he would be cheaper than Brad “no nonsense” Penny.
He could be a 12-14 win guy. I think there is little risk and tons of reward with Noah. Also for doubters, he is young enough to come back successful. If he gets injured again you could start Joe Martinez, Madison Bumgarner, or if desperate Ryan Sadowski.
There are no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq Chuck Norris lives in Texas
Little risk with Lowry?
Thats an understatement
#1 threat to America: Pandas
Also, Tim Lincecum
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Official McPokeMaster
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by GrahamCrakalaka on Dec 1, 2009 4:50 PM PST up reply actions
And also, he kind of hates the Giants.
It's my blarg! Quick Pitch
And I tweet (more often than I blarg).
DO YOU agree though that getting Chone figgins is possible and would be a good move if we just raise the cap a little
There are no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq Chuck Norris lives in Texas
We have no cap. I am pretty sure they will add for the RIGHT player. Unfortunately that player isn’t Chone Figgins, unless he is playing 2nd.
say hey nation is the Ralph Nader of McC.-Xanthan
by say hey nation on Dec 1, 2009 5:13 PM PST up reply actions
I’m not sure he’s even worth 10M given the other options available who probably won’t cost that much.
Proud parent of Waldis Joaquin!
Rowand's wild inconsistantly ranged from star to borderline 4th outfielder
Figgin’s wild inconsistancy ranges from star to solidly above average.
Even in his “bad” seasons, he’s still a plus defensive 3B with a .350+ OBP and good baserunning, which is still worth close to 10M.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
Mole+Panda+Chone<<Chone+Panda+ Garko
say hey nation is the Ralph Nader of McC.-Xanthan
by say hey nation on Dec 1, 2009 6:44 PM PST up reply actions
Who Is Mole?
If Mole is Sanchez then you are just wrong. The infield WAR of Sandoval 1B, Sanchez 2B, Figgins 3B, Renteria SS would be better then the infield WAR of Garko 1B, Figgins 2B, Sandoval 3B, Renteria SS. Freddie’s superior defense more then makes up for Garko’s offensive advantage.
by giantsrainman on Dec 1, 2009 8:50 PM PST up reply actions
Care to elaborate on this case…you know, give us the actual numbers?
by Missing Barry on Dec 2, 2009 8:08 AM PST up reply actions
Plus I think WAR over rates in season UZR
say hey nation is the Ralph Nader of McC.-Xanthan
by say hey nation on Dec 2, 2009 8:17 AM PST up reply actions
Having a quick look they look pretty similar to me with the Sanchez lineup providing the slight edge. Garko is probably around 10-15 runs better offensively than Sanchez. The defensive drop-off would probably be around 15 runs.
Proud parent of Waldis Joaquin!
However, this team needs more offense than defense
say hey nation is the Ralph Nader of McC.-Xanthan
by say hey nation on Dec 2, 2009 8:24 AM PST up reply actions
They Just Are Not That Hard To Look Up So Do It Yourself As I Already Have.
by giantsrainman on Dec 2, 2009 4:34 PM PST up reply actions
Except that the past is irrelevant to this discussion – their future value is what matters, and future projections is something everyone’s going to have a different opinion on. I’m trying to give you a forum to spell out your thought process and show, with an actual theory instead of just one meaningless sentence, why you think that. I still don’t get why it’s so hard to get you to elaborate and go into your thought process. One sentence opinions don’t add much value to a conversation.
Just to go into my thought process a little bit – look at Figgins. He has a career -8.5 UZR/150 at 2B, but 8.0 UZR/150 at 3B. The 3B sample is much larger and tells us more than the 2B sample, which is small. What we think his true ability at 3B vs. 2B is obviously relevant to this conversation. Freddy Sanchez’s 2B and 3B career UZR’s are also very different. Different people are going to have different interpretations of these things, because on average, 2B = 3B but that doesn’t necessarily mean for every player they’re the same at each position. Also, what to make of Freddy Sanchez in general. Of the past 5 years, 3 of them are good (but those are the 3 least current years), one is replacement level, one is a little above average. What to make of that?
Giving an opinion is the first step, showing the reasons behind the opinion and why it makes sense is the second…
by Missing Barry on Dec 2, 2009 4:52 PM PST up reply actions
If You Actually Pay Attention To The Numbers You Just looked Up
I don’t see any rational way to come ot any other conclusion.
by giantsrainman on Dec 2, 2009 5:16 PM PST up reply actions
Possibly, and I have yet to even disagree with you, I just really don’t understand why you don’t ever want to lay out your thought process…
by Missing Barry on Dec 2, 2009 5:39 PM PST up reply actions
I wouldn't worry too much.
Even if the plan is option A, I think the reality is that there will be plenty of option B mixed in.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
well then
we could still resign Penny, but also resign noah as well because when he was healthy he pitched well, and he could get healthy again and be a steal then it would really be a little risk big reward signing
There are no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq Chuck Norris lives in Texas
And Lowry HATES THE GIANTS. So, not gonna happen.
It's my blarg! Quick Pitch
And I tweet (more often than I blarg).
BUT WHY!
say hey nation is the Ralph Nader of McC.-Xanthan
by say hey nation on Dec 1, 2009 5:20 PM PST up reply actions
THE GAVE HIM HIS SHOT IN THE BIGS AND HE FAILED!
say hey nation is the Ralph Nader of McC.-Xanthan
by say hey nation on Dec 1, 2009 5:20 PM PST up reply actions
There’s no guarantee that Lowry will pitch again.
I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
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But besides that
very little risk
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Also, Tim Lincecum
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by GrahamCrakalaka on Dec 1, 2009 5:47 PM PST up reply actions
Lowry will not pitch in MLB again.
Giant Dirtbags: John Bowker, Steve Hammond. MIA List: Todd Jennings, Brian Anderson
Jeremy Affeldt induces DP's
by Giant among Angels on Dec 1, 2009 7:09 PM PST up reply actions
The problem is Bruce Bochy will not bat him in the bottom half of the order. He’ll bat 4th or 5th.
"All I know is right now, you comeback and do you dwell on that? I think you're man enough to take it, you're man enough to chew on it, to spit it out and you learn from it. ... I think winners let it go. I think losers dwell on it and talk about it all week and that screws you up for the next opportunity going forward." - Mike Singletary after the 49ers loss to the Vikings
I say we bat him 4.5 so he will be exactly in the middle of the order
I have finally accepted the fact that I will never win a McCoven award.
actually
5th IS the exact middle of the order. 4 people before and 4 after.
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
-------
PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game currently in early planning stages.
LIES! HE’S A WITCH!
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Dec 1, 2009 8:16 AM PST up reply actions
Actually
we could just translate the 4.5 as sending bengie to the plate wit han automatic 2 strike hole. I mean, let’s not pretend there will be more than 4 pitches counted in the at bat.
by Giant Voodoo on Dec 1, 2009 10:52 AM PST up reply actions
Yes, I think it’s a risk worth taking. I don’t think Bengie accepts – he has to make a decision long before he finds out nobody wants him…
Yeah, I do agree that it’s a risk worth taking, because I don’t think Bengie will accept.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
I think that Bengie won’t accept, so I think Sabean should take the risk.
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
GET THAT VORP AND WHIP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!
I’m terrified that he would accept. Then he’d be batting clean up for 2010 and sucking up too much payroll.
Frankly, I say no. Not worth the pick if he declines. Send the sensitive flower packing.
It's my blarg! Quick Pitch
And I tweet (more often than I blarg).
I’m in can of corn’s line. If Bengie turns down arb, he’s a fool. My guess is that the one-year salary he would get by accepting arb would be worth very close to as much as he could make TOTAL on the two-year deal he seems to want. I just find it incredibly unlikely that any team will give a fat 35-year-old catcher a two-year, $10M deal.
You’re also probably a lot smarter than Bengie Molina, and less of an emotional headcase…
by Missing Barry on Dec 1, 2009 10:08 AM PST up reply actions
I offer him arbitration and pray he signs with the Mets. The Mets are making me nervous though, signing Chris Coste to a contract today after first talking to Henry Blanco. They already have a catcher in Omir Santos and a promising kid in AA ball in Thode, so perhaps they’re not going to sign Molina after all.
No Edgar, it's not your fault, it's the fault of the idiot that plays you
I still think the idea that anyone might pay him more than he’d make in arbitration is nuts. It may happen, but it’s still nuts.
Think long term (2-3 years) vs one year. The average maybe lower but the overall value could be higher.
say hey nation is the Ralph Nader of McC.-Xanthan
by say hey nation on Nov 30, 2009 8:10 PM PST up reply actions
I think that is what people are thinking when they say he can make more money
say hey nation is the Ralph Nader of McC.-Xanthan
by say hey nation on Nov 30, 2009 8:25 PM PST up reply actions
Isn't the Met's first round pick protected?
It would be better if he signed with the Tigers, although they are unfortunately probably going to cut their budget.
by baseballjunkie on Nov 30, 2009 8:21 PM PST up reply actions
True, but a 2nd rounder (assuming the Mets don’t sign a better Type A) and a sandwich pick are still helpful…
by Missing Barry on Nov 30, 2009 8:47 PM PST up reply actions
I think it's posturing
I think they are talkign to all these back-ups to look like they are going in a different direction. The Giants know there isn’t a crazy buzz around Molina and the Met’s played their hand a little early by showing interest (either directly or indirectly).
It’s a trap, offer Bengie arb and I sincerely doubt he accepts. He wants his 2-3 year deal for 6+ million a year and his pacifier when when he gets grumpy wumpy.
by Giant Voodoo on Dec 1, 2009 10:56 AM PST up reply actions
I say no
On the off-chance that his agent is smart and can talk Bengie into swallowing his pride. Teams interested in Molina will likely be looking at a contract demand of $6+ million AND losing a draft pick either a first or second round pick. I just can’t see any team interested in that type of deal. And if Money accepts arbitration, who wants to go to arbitration with a type A free agent with decent rib-eyes?
"It's too late now."
Remember when the Braves offered Maddux arbitration and they had to trade Millwood for spare parts?
Who is our Millwood? Wilson? Cain?
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
/trades kevin millwood for Ben Francisco
say hey nation is the Ralph Nader of McC.-Xanthan
by say hey nation on Nov 30, 2009 8:11 PM PST up reply actions
/trades Ben Francisco for Julio Franco
"All I know is right now, you comeback and do you dwell on that? I think you're man enough to take it, you're man enough to chew on it, to spit it out and you learn from it. ... I think winners let it go. I think losers dwell on it and talk about it all week and that screws you up for the next opportunity going forward." - Mike Singletary after the 49ers loss to the Vikings
CAIN FOR FIELDER!
"My friend once told me a story about San Francisco Giants pitcher Tim Lincecum. He said his cousin went out to a bar in San Francisco and saw Lincecum there. He went up to him to give him a handshake.
Lincecum refused. He didn’t want to give him a handshake. He wanted to give him a chest bump."
by Tim LinCyYoung on Nov 30, 2009 8:12 PM PST up reply actions
That would be a funny money saving move
say hey nation is the Ralph Nader of McC.-Xanthan
by say hey nation on Nov 30, 2009 8:26 PM PST up reply actions
I am confused I thought you wanted Buster Posey
whats the point of signing Big Money Molina if we intend to play Posey a lot. I thought our intention was to get a veteran catcher for cheap to share playing time until Buster is ready to start. I mean why pay him 7 mil if you could use that money to sign either Scutaro, Nick Johnson, or any other free agent that could help our offense and get on base compared to Molina. They could also get Felipe Lopez proably cheap. Also how much cap do the giants have if they resign Penny, Uribe, Howry, and sign a catcher for say 3 mil.
There are no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq Chuck Norris lives in Texas
Who is the 'you' youre talking to?
The McCoven community as a whole?
Its funny because fuck the dodgers
no Billy Mays, of course I AM
There are no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq Chuck Norris lives in Texas
Offering Bengie arbitration does not mean we’re agreeing to terms on a contract with him. He has the option of declining arbitration.
by Missing Barry on Dec 1, 2009 7:10 AM PST up reply actions
Well, I don’t necessarily agree that Bengie is going to take it. Also, others have said an arb contract isn’t guaranteed, though it’s more of an “understanding” that it’s guaranteed that nobody wants to break, so technically, if not practically, that’s a difference…
by Missing Barry on Dec 1, 2009 10:09 AM PST up reply actions
If he accepts, cut him in spring training
I really don’t care about Bengie’s feelings. Nor do I think that it will impact any other players from wanting to sign with the Giants….mostly because they already do not want to sign with the Giants.
WHY IS BOCOCK?!
by Lars The Wanderer on Dec 1, 2009 10:19 AM PST up reply actions
From a "desirable outcome" standpoint, I agree with you
However, there is no way the Giants would actually do that, so I don’t want to take the risk of him accepting arb.
"The BB's are out. The BB's are being arseholes to me." - Brian Wilson.
HELL NO
he might accept.
plus, offering him arbitration makes it more difficult for him to sign a deal elsewhere as team might be reluctant to give up a first rounder.
I just can’t live thru another season of this guy. just say no and get it over with.
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by nostocksjustbonds on Nov 30, 2009 11:17 PM PST reply actions
I like the cut of your jib
I am very nervous that he will sign with someone else and no draft pick will result at all, although as you point out at least that leads to him grounding into double plays somewhere else.
Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."
Nobody puts Bengie in a corner!
by natteringnabob on Dec 1, 2009 10:24 AM PST up reply actions
To me, it comes down to this
Benjie not being a Giant >>> draft picks
"The BB's are out. The BB's are being arseholes to me." - Brian Wilson.
Sabean Has Already Stated The Giants Plan On Offering Arbitration
and that they expect him to decline because they expect he will have multiyear options which the Giants are not willing to consider.
Would Giants take the PR hit?
Is arbitration binding?
1. Giants offer
2. BMoney accepts
3. BMoney wins arbitration award
4. Giants decline to accept arbitration award and do not sign
I don't know
what the CBA says, but trashing the arb award for no reason (I mean, other than the reason they didn’t want him) seems like it would trigger some repercussion or “bad faith” claim or something.
You’d think that if it’s truly non-binding that some team would have junked an award by now.
Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."
Nobody puts Bengie in a corner!
by natteringnabob on Dec 1, 2009 10:27 AM PST up reply actions
I agree
Of all the unrealistic things being bandied about in this thread, the idea that they would decline the contract after successful arbitration takes the cake. The Giants are all about class and dignity, as laughable as that seems at times.
"The BB's are out. The BB's are being arseholes to me." - Brian Wilson.
They're so about it, that they put it before business sense.
IIRC, Sabean has saud that he doesn’t want to put a veteran in a situation where he feels disrespected by his contract.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
I don't know about class and dignity
but that kind of thing is certainly a good way to end up in court, with a lot of litigation costs and a big fat judgment against them.
And we’ve all seen what happens when someone grouses at the umpire about the strike zone; pooping on an arbitrator’s decision wouldn’t exactly be a good idea when Tim’s hearing rolls around (although I don’t know how the timing of the hearings is set, how large the panel is, etc.)
Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."
Nobody puts Bengie in a corner!
by natteringnabob on Dec 1, 2009 8:14 PM PST up reply actions
It Has Happened
After 2006 the Padres offered Todd Walker arbitration expecting he would turn it down but instead he accepted. At the deadline to make cuts before the full year’s salary becomes guaranteed the Padres cut him. The A’s ended up signing him for a whole lot less then his arbitration award. he did file a grievance against the Padres but I have never heard what the result was.
by giantsrainman on Dec 1, 2009 4:59 PM PST up reply actions
I've also hear that teams have signed star players to huge contracts that didn't backfire
Neither scenario seems possible for the Giants, however.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
YES
Best Case (likely case): he refuses, Giants get draft pick, Giants sign cheap catcher for short term to bridge Posey gap.
Worst Case (not likely): he accepts, Giants sign him for 1 year (which is what they wanted in the first place).
I’m ok with either scenario, but not to offer arbitration means the Giants walk away with nothing. End of story.
I think "nothing" in this case is better than another potential year of Benjie
I’d rather take the guarantee that we don’t have him anymore. Are we more concerned about some ephemeral idea of value, or about fielding a good baseball team? We all know that Bochy will play Molina given the chance, so isn’t a guarantee that Bochy doesn’t get that chance the best option?
"The BB's are out. The BB's are being arseholes to me." - Brian Wilson.
See, I don’t like to think along the lines of “what will the Giants do to compound a problem”. The correct answer if Bochy starts playing Molina is to cut Molina or fire Bochy. I think we should treat those as two independent problems rather that one situation, after all, we’re kind of discussing what we’d like the Giants to do, right? And that’s to hit Bengie 8th and play him only until Posey comes up, if he accepts arb.
Also, nobody has really mentioned the fact that we can trade Bengie if he accepts. Even if we throw in $2M, the point is we’re now only paying $2M instead of $7M for the downside of the gamble, and who knows, maybe we get something useful in return. I think the risk is not nearly as big as you make it…
by Missing Barry on Dec 1, 2009 10:13 AM PST up reply actions
Your lower risk presumes a change of thinking in the FO
I’m taking the course of evidence-based realism. Molina would never be cut. Bochy would never be fired. Search your feelings, you know that to be true.
Your trade scenario would sound more plausible if Molina had more upside. Again, going with realism, it’s doubtful that he looks better further down the road than he does now.
"The BB's are out. The BB's are being arseholes to me." - Brian Wilson.
I don’t see how the trade scenario isn’t plausible. If anyone’s interested in a free agent, why wouldn’t they be interested in trading for him? There’s obviously some price they’re willing to pay, and whatever that price is reduces what it costs us to lose on our gamble by said price.
by Missing Barry on Dec 1, 2009 10:56 AM PST up reply actions
Ok say we do a sign and trade with the mets the team who is most interested in him
Who do we get in return
There are no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq Chuck Norris lives in Texas
No one who would be worth the 7 million we would be paying Molina.
#1 threat to America: Pandas
Also, Tim Lincecum
Adopted Father: Tyler Graham
Official McPokeMaster
Registered Velezbian and supporter of Fredemption
by GrahamCrakalaka on Dec 1, 2009 4:06 PM PST up reply actions
and Ike Hampton
he can play catcher too
Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."
Nobody puts Bengie in a corner!
by natteringnabob on Dec 1, 2009 8:24 PM PST up reply actions
Pat Misch!
#1 threat to America: Pandas
Also, Tim Lincecum
Adopted Father: Tyler Graham
Official McPokeMaster
Registered Velezbian and supporter of Fredemption
by GrahamCrakalaka on Dec 1, 2009 4:21 PM PST up reply actions
We likely have to pay some of Bengie’s contract and we get a nobody prospect in return. I’m not putting this out there as a good scenario – just throwing this out there as the worst case scenario, where we pay maybe $2M of Bengie’s contract. So instead of the downside risk that he accepts arbitration costing us $7M, it only costs us more like $2M. The point is Bengie’s full contract should not be the worst case scenario.
by Missing Barry on Dec 1, 2009 6:17 PM PST up reply actions
We Could Not Make Such a Trade Until June 1st.
Free agents signed (including your own) can not be traded until June 1st.
by giantsrainman on Dec 1, 2009 6:41 PM PST up reply actions
What about someone that goes through arbitration?
by Missing Barry on Dec 1, 2009 6:56 PM PST up reply actions
Well that does take away from my point, then.
by Missing Barry on Dec 1, 2009 7:41 PM PST up reply actions
Yep, But The Date Is Actually June 15th.
A free agent who signs a major-league contract may not be traded without his written consent before June 15 of the following season.
by giantsrainman on Dec 1, 2009 8:27 PM PST up reply actions
By December 7, player must accept or reject the arbitration offer. If the player accepts the offer, he returns to his club’s 40-man roster.
So he’s no longer a free agent, and thus can be traded at any time.
Simply Not True
He is considered signed and thus must be on the 40 man just like any other signed free agent.
by giantsrainman on Dec 2, 2009 4:39 PM PST up reply actions
OK, I looked it up in the CBA. The June 15 thing definitely does not apply to free agents who accept arbitration.
This is another argument for offering arb to Molina, but I’m still happy they didn’t.
Ok, so if you’re right, then I definitely would have offered Molina arb. That said, I can’t be upset we didn’t. The non-offer supporters definitely have legitimate points.
by Missing Barry on Dec 2, 2009 8:34 PM PST up reply actions
Here Is Mine!
(6) Miscellaneous
(a) Any Club signing a contract after the expiration of the election
period with a Player under this Section B may not assign his
contract until after the next June 15. However, notwithstanding the
foregoing, such contract may be assigned for other Player contracts
and/or cash consideration of $50,000 or less prior to the next June
16 if the Player gives written consent to such transaction.
by giantsrainman on Dec 3, 2009 12:15 AM PST up reply actions
NO
The worst-case scenario is really really bad. You’re signing a bench catcher for $7 million or so. And that’s if you believe Bochy really would keep him on the bench.
this this a thousand times this
"The BB's are out. The BB's are being arseholes to me." - Brian Wilson.
LALALALALALALALALALALALALALALA I CANT HEAR YOU!! SPEAK UP!
say hey nation is the Ralph Nader of McC.-Xanthan
by say hey nation on Dec 1, 2009 5:18 PM PST up reply actions
Nah – see above, it shouldn’t cost nearly Bengie’s whole contract…
by Missing Barry on Dec 1, 2009 6:18 PM PST up reply actions
This Is Just Not True
If Bengie accepts arbitration the Giants are not going to cut him. This is just not how the Giants operate. They may decide (if Buster proves he is ready) to trade him but even this could not happen until June 1st.
by giantsrainman on Dec 1, 2009 6:43 PM PST up reply actions
I’ll wait for your response to my question above, but anyways, that June 1st date looks good to me – I’m all for the leaving Posey in the minors until he won’t be a Super Two plan, which means trading Bengie after June 1st anyways….
by Missing Barry on Dec 1, 2009 6:58 PM PST up reply actions
I live in a fantasy world where Bengie would be hitting 8th.
by Missing Barry on Dec 2, 2009 8:09 AM PST up reply actions
From MLBTR:
The Mets are poised to add Henry Blanco and Chris Coste as backup options, but Davidoff (Newsday reporter) says their top free agent target is Bengie Molina. If he’s offered arbitration today and turns it down later, Molina would cost the Mets’ their #40 draft pick (unless they also sign a higher-ranked Type A who turned down arb, in which case their #40 pick would go to another team and the Giants would get #71).
If you can get 3:2 on a headline of "Giants Pitcher Assaults General Manager" at some point this year, take it.
#40 pick?
I don’t want him on the roster, he’s got no major league experience.
Don’t even get me started on #71. No gamerlicious veteranitude.
Besides, the Ginats have a great bullpen catcher already, and if on a split-squad day in spring training the rest of the major league roster is obliterated by a meteor strike, he’ll be a great option.
Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."
Nobody puts Bengie in a corner!
by natteringnabob on Dec 1, 2009 10:29 AM PST up reply actions
i’m sick of you trashing #71, he young and just needs some seasoning. Toolsy!
by Giant Voodoo on Dec 1, 2009 10:59 AM PST up reply actions
question for fantastical
provided he bats in the bottom third
What makes you believe that is remotely possible with Bochy as manager?
I’m kind of amazed at the number of people who think that offering arb is an acceptable risk, when the downside (which is quite a possible outcome) is having one of the league’s worst hitters again in the heart of our lineup.
"The BB's are out. The BB's are being arseholes to me." - Brian Wilson.
when the downside (which is quite a possible outcome) is having one of the league’s worst hitters again in the heart of our lineup
See above. I don’t see that as the risk, nor do I think decisions should be made on the premise of the possibility of a future mistake…
by Missing Barry on Dec 1, 2009 10:13 AM PST up reply actions
Have you been watching the way the FO does business?
promise ofthe possibility ofa future mistake…
fixed.
"The BB's are out. The BB's are being arseholes to me." - Brian Wilson.
2011 FA Catchers (from MLBTR)
Catchers
John Buck (30)
Raul Chavez (38)
Ramon Hernandez (35) – option vests with 120 games played
Gerald Laird (31)
Jason LaRue (37)
Victor Martinez (32)
Joe Mauer (28)
A.J. Pierzynski (34)
David Ross (34)
Jason Varitek (39)
Bengie has some competition next year in offensive production. This year he is one of if not the best (haha). Obviously a guy like Joe Mauer probably won’t be around but AJ and Martinez easily. Bengie I believe would get the most money/years this year and not next year.
If Bengie gambles on arb and hits the market next year with more competition, I’m pretty sure it will be a slider in the dirt for him financially.
So is this why people are so convinced he wouldn't accept arb?
I guess I can buy that.
"The BB's are out. The BB's are being arseholes to me." - Brian Wilson.
/Bengie swings at slider in the dirt
It's my blarg! Quick Pitch
And I tweet (more often than I blarg).
What are the options at C once Bengie leaves?
Should they keep Buster in SF out of spring training to start? Sign Torrealba with Buster as the backup? Sign Torrealba with Whiteside as backup? Start Whiteside and sign Torrealba as backup? Start Whiteside and use Buster as a pinch runner? Throw a curveball and sign Pedro Feliz to start? Throw another curveball as Bochy decides he can still catch 80 somewhat games and use Buster as a pinch runner?
Win the inning.
Well
Torrealba would never be Whiteside’s back-up. I think Torrealba is looking for 3+ million and will get it somewhere.
I’d hope to see a guy like Blanco hired, a known solid vet back-up catcher with great defense. Some pointers for Posey’s defense and just letting Posey get used to hitting in the majors ad I think we got us a great battery.
I worry a lot about signing a former great player like him because I think Bochy will be bork it up and play him over Posey a lot to “show the kid how to catch” and “bork bork former All-Star bork”. So I fear the Kendalls and Molinas of the world in this situation. I used to be okay with a Rodriguez signing but my fear has grown since then.
Posey needs to be the best potential impact guy in the catcher’s position to avoid a borked situation. I dread seeing us stick with Jason Kendall behind the dish because he’s a vet that Bochy can count on and that Posey is still learning.
by Giant Voodoo on Dec 1, 2009 12:57 PM PST up reply actions
He only has 1 week to accept/decline
Sabes would be a fool not to offer him arb. Today is the deadline, and then Bengie only has 1 week to accept/decline arb. I don’t think that’s enough time for his need for money to override his ego. He’ll surely reject arb and try his luck with FA. If Sabes makes it clear that he has no chance to start for us next year, and that Buster and another cheap C will be getting 90% of the PT, then Bengie will look on it as disrespect for his body of work. His wounded machismo won’t allow him to accept arb in such a short time-frame.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
By the way, how do the rules work for McC adoptions when your adoptee leaves? If Molina goes do I just pick anyone who is open? Can I wait and have first dibs on new acquisitions? I must know!
Nobody likes money
It’s more like this will happen if Bengie accepts arb…
by Missing Barry on Dec 1, 2009 6:18 PM PST up reply actions
We will set him on fire.
I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
Mr. F! | comics | art | New Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory
They sure are taking their time about making the announcement
I can imagine Sabean flipping a coin as we speak…
WHY IS BOCOCK?!
by Lars The Wanderer on Dec 1, 2009 3:29 PM PST reply actions
prediction
who has the molina announcement first ? mlbtr or baggs ? i say mlbtr
WGS….
say hey nation is the Ralph Nader of McC.-Xanthan
by say hey nation on Dec 1, 2009 4:43 PM PST up reply actions
ANTI-SABEAN BIAS
Surely he is undergoing an exhaustive process with all of his assistants, outlining every single pro and con of each move, doing a cost-benefit analysis along with sophisticated statistical evidence and the use of probabilities to calculate expected return!
Lethargy
It has me
really ?
they can do all of that at momo’s ?
Little does he know. A hour ago Neukom(sp?) replaced all of the coins in the Giants offices with double headed coins.
/Sabean: I’ll flip until I get tails…
say hey nation is the Ralph Nader of McC.-Xanthan
by say hey nation on Dec 1, 2009 5:05 PM PST up reply actions
I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
Mr. F! | comics | art | New Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory
“If anybody deserves credit for this year’s turnaround it’s these two people, Brian and Bruce,” Neukom said. “The encouraging thing is we think we’re back to playing baseball the way it ought to be played.”
"It's too late now."
That would be a collective facepalm from McCoven.
"All I know is right now, you comeback and do you dwell on that? I think you're man enough to take it, you're man enough to chew on it, to spit it out and you learn from it. ... I think winners let it go. I think losers dwell on it and talk about it all week and that screws you up for the next opportunity going forward." - Mike Singletary after the 49ers loss to the Vikings
all of the big boy type A are getting offered
bay, holliday, lackey, figgins, wolf….. wait, what ?
The Dodgers can't afford for him to accept.
Not can they afford two more first round picks.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
the really hard part
is if the giants offer bengie, we all have to hold our collective breath for a whole week for him to decide. painfull
Offer it
and tell him you want him to decline. Hes to emotional to accept.
#1 threat to America: Pandas
Also, Tim Lincecum
Adopted Father: Tyler Graham
Official McPokeMaster
Registered Velezbian and supporter of Fredemption
Q
How does this happen?
Orlando Cabrera (35) – Type A, can’t be offered arbitration
Giant Dirtbags: John Bowker, Steve Hammond. MIA List: Todd Jennings, Brian Anderson
Jeremy Affeldt induces DP's
by Giant among Angels on Dec 1, 2009 7:24 PM PST reply actions
It was a clause in his contract.
WHY IS BOCOCK?!
by Lars The Wanderer on Dec 1, 2009 7:27 PM PST up reply actions
1.5 hours left
Sabean is drunk
WHY IS BOCOCK?!
by Lars The Wanderer on Dec 1, 2009 7:31 PM PST reply actions
LOL Sabes
(Cut-and-pasted from another thread):
What an idiot. In 2007 he calls up Timmeh so early in the year to pitch for a team that has no chance at making the playoffs, and ends up allowing him to get so much ML playing time that he now qualifies as a Super 2 and will cost us about $10-13M more than we should have had to pay for him next year. Then he jumps into the FA market last offseason and signs Rent to an obscene contract without waiting to see what the market would be like. Then, in July he jumps in well before the trade deadline to trade T2 for FSanch instead of sweating the Pirates for a better deal, or to have them pay some $$$ for salary relief.
But now, when it makes no difference, he waits until the last possible moment to announce the arb decisions. Why is this man still in charge? Is this the vaunted new “Giant’s Way” that Nuekom touted?
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
LOL Neukom
(Cut-and-pasted from this thread):
“If anybody deserves credit for this year’s turnaround it’s these two people, Brian and Bruce,” Neukom said. “The encouraging thing is we think we’re back to playing baseball the way it ought to be played.”
"It's too late now."
Does Neukom know it’s not 1967??
"All I know is right now, you comeback and do you dwell on that? I think you're man enough to take it, you're man enough to chew on it, to spit it out and you learn from it. ... I think winners let it go. I think losers dwell on it and talk about it all week and that screws you up for the next opportunity going forward." - Mike Singletary after the 49ers loss to the Vikings
This feels like waiting for a LOLineup to be posted.
If you can get 3:2 on a headline of "Giants Pitcher Assaults General Manager" at some point this year, take it.
i just visited true blue
dodger fans are irate for wolf and hudson and they should be. entertaining, actually.
On the flip side, someone who LOL did? Beltre.
I think Seattle might regret that…
If you can get 3:2 on a headline of "Giants Pitcher Assaults General Manager" at some point this year, take it.
Bedard makes sense to me. He’s coming off an injury and will miss part of next season. He won’t get anywhere near $8m (which was his salary last year) in the FA market. I’m assuming that’s why the M’s didn’t offer him arb.
If you can get 3:2 on a headline of "Giants Pitcher Assaults General Manager" at some point this year, take it.
Orioles did not offer arb to any of their FA
I think the Giants are the only team not to release any info yet.
WHY IS BOCOCK?!
by Lars The Wanderer on Dec 1, 2009 8:22 PM PST reply actions
of course
sabean… the elgin baylor of baseball
How in the world did you become a Clippers fan?
"All I know is right now, you comeback and do you dwell on that? I think you're man enough to take it, you're man enough to chew on it, to spit it out and you learn from it. ... I think winners let it go. I think losers dwell on it and talk about it all week and that screws you up for the next opportunity going forward." - Mike Singletary after the 49ers loss to the Vikings
My condolences.
"All I know is right now, you comeback and do you dwell on that? I think you're man enough to take it, you're man enough to chew on it, to spit it out and you learn from it. ... I think winners let it go. I think losers dwell on it and talk about it all week and that screws you up for the next opportunity going forward." - Mike Singletary after the 49ers loss to the Vikings
That can be arranged.
Utter frustration and futility.
by Johnny Disaster on Dec 2, 2009 5:50 PM PST up reply actions
How in the world did you become a Giants fan?
#1 threat to America: Pandas
Also, Tim Lincecum
Adopted Father: Tyler Graham
Official McPokeMaster
Registered Velezbian and supporter of Fredemption
by GrahamCrakalaka on Dec 2, 2009 12:24 AM PST up reply actions
Rays offer arb to Shouse and Zaun
The Giants are definitely the only team left.
WHY IS BOCOCK?!
by Lars The Wanderer on Dec 1, 2009 8:45 PM PST reply actions
Maybe they’ll break the news on Chron Live. I see Mr. Amy G. is one of the guests.
If you can get 3:2 on a headline of "Giants Pitcher Assaults General Manager" at some point this year, take it.
Oh great, now I’m getting Amy G. ladyboy visuals in my head… you will never be forgiven.
Utter frustration and futility.
by Johnny Disaster on Dec 1, 2009 8:49 PM PST up reply actions
Maybe he forgot?
Or maybe there will be a last minute deal to bring him back.
WHY IS BOCOCK?!
by Lars The Wanderer on Dec 1, 2009 8:53 PM PST up reply actions
The anticipation is unbearable.
Giant Dirtbags: John Bowker, Steve Hammond. MIA List: Todd Jennings, Brian Anderson
Jeremy Affeldt induces DP's
by Giant among Angels on Dec 1, 2009 8:59 PM PST reply actions
Well, I am sure Bengie is happy
WHY IS BOCOCK?!
by Lars The Wanderer on Dec 1, 2009 9:01 PM PST up reply actions
Well, that part is settled
Giant Dirtbags: John Bowker, Steve Hammond. MIA List: Todd Jennings, Brian Anderson
Jeremy Affeldt induces DP's
by Giant among Angels on Dec 1, 2009 9:03 PM PST up reply actions
damn
#1 threat to America: Pandas
Also, Tim Lincecum
Adopted Father: Tyler Graham
Official McPokeMaster
Registered Velezbian and supporter of Fredemption
by GrahamCrakalaka on Dec 1, 2009 9:03 PM PST up reply actions
Fuck work! Let's drink!
WHY IS BOCOCK?!
by Lars The Wanderer on Dec 1, 2009 9:06 PM PST up reply actions
Are you a dancer?
Giant Dirtbags: John Bowker, Steve Hammond. MIA List: Todd Jennings, Brian Anderson
Jeremy Affeldt induces DP's
by Giant among Angels on Dec 1, 2009 9:07 PM PST up reply actions
Shocked! The 2nd Lincecum Cy Young's Impact To Timmy's Arb Case Must Have Changed Brain's Mind.
He decided he just can’t afford both risks in terms of the dollars they could cost.
by giantsrainman on Dec 1, 2009 9:07 PM PST up reply actions
I AM SURE THAT IS IT!!
WHY IS BOCOCK?!
by Lars The Wanderer on Dec 1, 2009 9:09 PM PST up reply actions
I like this answer!
If you can get 3:2 on a headline of "Giants Pitcher Assaults General Manager" at some point this year, take it.
But seriously though...
While this doesn’t mean the organization is cutting ties with Molina, it’s clear that GM Brian Sabean didn’t want his cleanup hitter back on a one-year contract.
Huh? I thought the only Giants option for Bengie WAS a 1 year contract.
If you can get 3:2 on a headline of "Giants Pitcher Assaults General Manager" at some point this year, take it.
Or
The Giants brass are ready to go to war with Yorvit Torrealba as “mentor” in a starting role.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
Speculation aside, I look forward to the real reasoning.
Giant Dirtbags: John Bowker, Steve Hammond. MIA List: Todd Jennings, Brian Anderson
Jeremy Affeldt induces DP's
by Giant among Angels on Dec 1, 2009 9:18 PM PST up reply actions
New Scrubs is weird
#1 threat to America: Pandas
Also, Tim Lincecum
Adopted Father: Tyler Graham
Official McPokeMaster
Registered Velezbian and supporter of Fredemption
I worked an event a few weeks ago at the HD dealership in N. CA that supplies the bikes for this show.
Giant Dirtbags: John Bowker, Steve Hammond. MIA List: Todd Jennings, Brian Anderson
Jeremy Affeldt induces DP's
by Giant among Angels on Dec 1, 2009 9:20 PM PST up reply actions
I just watched it and yeah. They don’t really explain that this is a year later and the transition is odd (when did they all get teaching credentials?) and all of a sudden JD and Elliot are married and Elliot’s pregnant and whut?
Yeah I saw that too
I thought it was like the second or third episode in. It seems akward, the new characters do not match the old. It will still be good. Its just hard to warm up to new characters when you are so disapointed. I wis there was just like a 2 hour movie than a new series. God I miss JD’s flashbacks and guy love.
There are no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq Chuck Norris lives in Texas
And thanks man for the spoiler I never saw the episode now I am all sad
It will really suck when Jd is gone and I thought he was working at the place wher KIm worked to be closer to the baby
There are no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq Chuck Norris lives in Texas
Giants Do Not Offer Arb To Any Free Agents
By Tim Dierkes [December 1 at 11:00pm CST]
The Giants did not offer arbitration to any of their free agents – Type A catcher Bengie Molina and Type Bs Bob Howry, Randy Johnson, and Randy Winn. It’s a mixed result for Molina – he’s more attractive to other teams (the Mets, for example) now that he will not cost a draft pick, but if he’d been offered and accepted arbitration he probably would’ve maximized his 2010 salary.
Proud father of Barry Zito. As long as he keeps throwing strikes, that is.
/punches Sabean in mouth
#1 threat to America: Pandas
Also, Tim Lincecum
Adopted Father: Tyler Graham
Official McPokeMaster
Registered Velezbian and supporter of Fredemption
by GrahamCrakalaka on Dec 1, 2009 10:12 PM PST up reply actions
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