Could the Giants get any Compensation Picks?
by Bay Area Sports Fan on Nov 21, 2009 4:45 PM PST
60 comments
The Giants enter the offseason with one Type A free agent and three Type B free agents.
The rules for Type A free agents and Type B free agents are as follows:
- If a free agent that is considered Type A or Type B is signed by another team by December 1, the free agents previous team receives compensation.
- If a free agent is given a qualifying offer (at least 1 year and at least 80% of the previous year's salary) by his previous team and signs with a different team at any time during the offseason, then the free agent's previous team receives compensation.
- The top 20% of all players according to the Elias grading system are considered Type A. When a team receives compensation for a Type A free agent, they get the free agent's new team's 1st or 2nd round pick (1st if the free agent's new team finished in the top 14 of the standings, 2ndif they finished in the bottom 16 of the standings) and a "sandwich" pick (an added pick to the draft that is between the 1st and 2nd round)
- The next 20% of all players according to the Elias grading system are considered Type B. When a team receives compensation for a Type B free agent, they get a "sandwich" pick.
- All remaining players have no recognition. Teams can't receive compensation for losing these players.
Of the Giants free agents, Bengie Molina is Type A, while Randy Winn, Bob Howry and Randy Johnson are all Type B. Here is what I think they should do with each of them:
- Bengie Molina (Type A) - Offer him the minimum qualifying offer to receive compensation if he decides to sign elsewhere. This would be 1 year at 5.2 million dollars (80% of his 2008 salary). If he accepts, great. We will have Molina for one more year, while Posey develops. If he signs elsewhere for more money/years, even better. We will then give Posey a chance to start right away and come away with two high draft picks as well.
- Randy Winn (Type B) - As the Giants have already stated, just let him go. The money we would have to offer him to receive compensation would be 7.2 million dollars over 1 year. Winn would surely accept this offer, and this would be way too much money to for an aging outfielder with minuscule power.
- Randy Johnson (Type B) - This is the same situation as Winn. We would have to offer Johnson a 1 year, 6.4 million dollar deal to receive compensation. Just like Winn, this is way too much money to offer an aging player, especially when you consider the kind of pitching staff we already have.
- Bob Howry (Type B) - The decision of whether or not to offer Howry enough money to receive compensation is the hardest of the Giants four Type A/B players. We would have to offer Howry a 1 year, 2.2 million dollar deal. Sadly, he would likely accept this offer as it would probably be more money than what he would be offered by other teams. He did have a reasonable season last year though with an ERA of 3.39 (despite giving up too many walk offs) and should probably be offered the deal, as the downside of him deciding to re-sign would not be too large.
I think that if the Giants play this situation correctly, they can definitely come out of the whole ordeal with two extra draft picks (from Molina). If they are lucky, they could end up with three (the last coming from Howry).
This FanPost is reader-generated, and it does not necessarily reflect the views of McCovey Chronicles. If the author uses filler to achieve the minimum word requirement, a moderator may edit the FanPost for his or her own amusement.
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I'm not sure you understand what "arbitration" entails.
Then again, I’m not sure I understand what arbitration entails.
My son is Madison Bumgarner, the Spacebat of pitching prospects. My other son is a Porsche.
by multiphasic on Nov 21, 2009 5:05 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
If he accepts, great
Nah
Chris Dominguez: Bringing dingerz back to The Bay (In a while)
SCIENCE
by CB30 on Nov 21, 2009 5:27 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
+2
Who’s brain did you bring me?
Brain SabeanOranother.
by daveinexile on Nov 22, 2009 9:29 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I would say plus 4
but everyone who has commented has had a name starting with ‘d’
and who am I to mess that up
#1 threat to America: Pandas
Also, Tim Lincecum
Adopted Father: Tyler Graham
Official McPokeMaster
Registered Velezbian and supporter of Fredemption
by GrahamCrakalaka on Nov 26, 2009 2:40 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Offer BMoney Arbitration
but then make sure to set aside $7M in case he accepts and goes to the hearing
by wilriv21 on Nov 21, 2009 5:34 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
He's not accepting
He’ll be a Met. They’re going to offer him two years, and the Giants’ have hurt his widdle feelings.
No Edgar, it's not your fault, it's the fault of the idiot that plays you
by rxmeister on Nov 21, 2009 6:05 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I hope so.
If not, the Giants should try harder.
Lethargy
It has me
by dregarx on Nov 21, 2009 9:23 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
We can only hope the Mets offer him two years and/or the Giants hurt his feelings (meaning he’d rather take one year from the Mets than one year from the Giants).
"All I know is right now, you comeback and do you dwell on that? I think you're man enough to take it, you're man enough to chew on it, to spit it out and you learn from it. ... I think winners let it go. I think losers dwell on it and talk about it all week and that screws you up for the next opportunity going forward." - Mike Singletary after the 49ers loss to the Vikings
by SFGuy on Nov 21, 2009 9:45 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Two years and how much? If they offer 2yrs/$10M BMoney might be willing to go to arb with the Giants seeking 1yr $7M
by wilriv21 on Nov 21, 2009 11:38 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Problem Is BMoney May Not Have The Mets Offer To Choose From Yet.
The Mets are not going to make an offer until they know if it is going to cost them a draft choice or not and thus until after the December 1st deadline for the Giants to offer Bengi arbitration. They may wait another week so that Bengie has to decide to acept or reject arbitration (assuming it was offered) before he knows what his other options are. Seems to me that if this is the case Bengie’s pride will tell him that the yet unknown offer will be better the the bird in hand even if logic tells you and me that it will not.
by giantsrainman on Nov 21, 2009 11:47 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
don’t forget that the Mets keep their number one draft choice, even if they sign a Type A free agent. I think they’ll sign Bengie fairly early. I don’t think they can bluff the Giants’ here, because Sabean has already said he’ll offer Bengie arbitration, and doesn’t mind if Bengie accepts. If I were Sabean I would sign another catcher before the arbitration date to be Posey’s backup. That would make it clear to Bengie that if he accepts arbitration he’s coming to a team that no longer wants him, and the best he can hope for is to compete for second string.
No Edgar, it's not your fault, it's the fault of the idiot that plays you
by rxmeister on Nov 22, 2009 5:29 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
He's got hurt feelings
he’s got hurt feelings
Please hit better, Randy Winn.
by oldjacket on Nov 22, 2009 11:27 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Bengie=Ms. New Zealand
The very bad man traded my son...So now I'd like you all to meet my new son, Ryan "Aaron" Garko...Dammit it's just not the same!
by boonitez on Nov 22, 2009 11:34 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
He’s been told that he looks like a llama.
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
by jcb9 on Nov 22, 2009 11:40 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
It hurts his feelings when you say stuff like that.
Utter frustration and futility.
by Johnny Disaster on Nov 23, 2009 7:30 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Honestly, if the Giants don’t know how to frame a winning argument against Molina getting a $1 million dollar raise off of his 2009 performance then they should get out of the arbitration business altogether, if not the baseball business.
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
by Roger on Nov 22, 2009 8:03 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Giants seldom go thru the arb process
by wilriv21 on Nov 22, 2009 2:53 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
They definitely don’t like it, but to some degree their seldom going through it has more to do with the fact that they’ve had relatively few arb eligible players over the years compared to other clubs. We’ll see what happens in the next few years.
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
by Roger on Nov 22, 2009 3:32 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
BMoney/Sabean Exchange
BMoney: Can you kiss me?
Sabean: What?
BMoney: Can you kiss me?
Sabean: I don’t understand.
BMoney: Cause I like to be kissed WHEN SOMEONE’S TRYING TO SEX ME!
by wilriv21 on Nov 22, 2009 5:49 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
This was probably the best skit the whole show.
Gary Darling, go DIAFF.
by The Enchanter on Nov 25, 2009 4:02 PM PST via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
You Just Don't Get It
Everything the arbitration process cares about says Bengie is a top 20% catcher. He is rated Type A and type A’s without any injury history get raises.
by giantsrainman on Nov 22, 2009 3:52 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Actually, “the arbitration process” not being an animate (or even inanimate) object doesn’t “care” about anything. The arbiters, who are an extremely intelligent and dedicated group of people, care about who presents the best case within the parameters set up by the CBA. While that certainly prescribes certain criteria, it also allows for flexibility of evolving understanding of best practices. Certainly arbiters in general are a much more educated, sophisticated, and diligent lot than the nation’s sports writers, and even that group of slack jawed atavists seem to be slouching towards a better understanding of statistical analysis, so it seems unlikely to me that abitrators would either fail to understand or refuse to take to account such metrics.
Ultimately, of course, it’s best to avoid arbitration entirely, as Sabean has acknowledged and I’d think it’s a longshot that Bengie would accept arb, unless his agent is really getting no nibbles at all. I think a lot of people believe it’s going to be a late breaking FA season, and accepting arbitration would take Molina out of the game before it really even gets going.
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
by Roger on Nov 23, 2009 8:38 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
You Are Missing The Point
They have never cut salary or even held salary the same for a healthy Type A player. To expect Bengie to be the first this happens too seems more then foolish to me.
by giantsrainman on Nov 23, 2009 1:56 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I guess I get what you’re saying, although you’re saying it strangely. In the last 20 years, there’s only 1 Type A FA who ever went to an arbitration hearing and that was Greg Maddux, who did in fact, get a health raise. Mark Loretta is the only other FA who accepted arbitration and went to a hearing. He was a Type B and I believe he did end up getting his salary cut, although I can’t say that for sure. I know the club won that hearing, but I can’t find his salary numbers from the previous year.
One caveat, however, is that virtually all previous arbitration hearings have been conducted in an environment of continually rising salaries. That may not be the case this year, if the market continues with a second winter of depressed FA salaries, the arbitration decisions will have to respond to that somehow. Nonetheless, it’s a mute point. The Giants and Bengie will almost certainly not end up in an arbitration hearing.
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
by Roger on Nov 23, 2009 3:43 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
What year did Lorretta accept arbitration? The very bottom of his B-R Page will lists what he was paid in a given year.
Who’s brain did you bring me?
Brain SabeanOranother.
by daveinexile on Nov 24, 2009 8:44 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Though they admitt the number maybe off it will at least give a solid “ball park” to work from.
Who’s brain did you bring me?
Brain SabeanOranother.
by daveinexile on Nov 24, 2009 8:46 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Cots contracts really needs to make player pages or something that lets you easily access individual players. I can’t find Loretta on their page since he’s currently a FA (and therefore not on a team)…
by Missing Barry on Nov 24, 2009 9:17 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
It would be nice. But then I don’t think he get any income for that hobby soI am not going to cmplain too much. For what it is worht I think his adding the team spread sheets and keeping 2009 live is a step in that direction.
Who’s brain did you bring me?
Brain SabeanOranother.
by daveinexile on Nov 24, 2009 9:34 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
It was 2008 with the Astros. So he lost his arbitration hearing and ended up with a 250K raise.
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
by Roger on Nov 24, 2009 11:21 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
You Will Find Him Under The Side Bar "FA Position Players"
by giantsrainman on Nov 24, 2009 7:32 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I missed that the first time. Thanks. I found some other list that had the players but not the contracts, assumed that was all they had.
by Missing Barry on Nov 24, 2009 8:02 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree offer Molina & Howry arb
Molina because he probably will decline and draft picks > molina.
I would also offer Howry arb because he is better than Merkin “1 Pitch” Valdez and I’m not convinced that relying on Waldis Joaquin all year is a good plan.
by Gobroks on Nov 21, 2009 6:07 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
This
Molina won’t take it; he’s looking for a multiyear deal and option 2 for those in need of a catcher is Miguel Olivo, which is like a worse Molina. Howry would be a perfectly reasonable bullpen addition on a $2M salary; he was good last year, just victimized by the homers.
by quincy0191 on Nov 22, 2009 1:35 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Arbitration Would Likely Give Howry A Raise On The $2.75M He Mad In 2009
That siad, I would still offer it.
by giantsrainman on Nov 22, 2009 2:03 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't know
Molina’s poor speed kills us, his low hitting percentage kills us, and he would cost us more than he is worth. I also think we should not waste money on Nick Johnson, because he is often injured and over priced
I say Sabe spends extra money this offseason, signs Tejada, resigns penny, resigns Howry, signs Miguel Olivio.
Miguel olivio did not hit for high average last year but hit for power and higher obs than Molina and he is not the slowest player in the MLB. he also hits a higher slugging percentage and hits in more runs than Bengie he is also in his prime.
Signing Tejeda really helps our team. He is a great hitter and makes our hitting a lot better. He gets a ton of hits, barely strikes out, hits for high avg, knocks in runs, hits high slugging percentage, and is an iron man.
Look at our possible lineup and staff with the additions
rowand
sanchez
Tejada
Panda
Uribe
olivio
Scierholz
1b
pitcher
Starting pitching
Lincecum
Cain
Sanchez
Penny
Zito
relief
Affeldt
romo
howry
Medders
Hinshaw
closer Wilson
There are no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq Chuck Norris lives in Texas
by Mike Fox on Nov 21, 2009 8:38 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Miguel “.278 career OBP” Olivo?
/facepalm
Lethargy
It has me
by dregarx on Nov 21, 2009 9:25 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
A lot of facepalm when we’ve read his stuff.
"All I know is right now, you comeback and do you dwell on that? I think you're man enough to take it, you're man enough to chew on it, to spit it out and you learn from it. ... I think winners let it go. I think losers dwell on it and talk about it all week and that screws you up for the next opportunity going forward." - Mike Singletary after the 49ers loss to the Vikings
by SFGuy on Nov 21, 2009 9:46 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Indeed.
Joe Martinez: You are cool.
When it's all said and done, America will be remembered for three things: The Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
by cornball on Nov 22, 2009 10:30 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Miguel ".278 career OBP" Olivo olivio?
Stoopid.
The very bad man traded my son...So now I'd like you all to meet my new son, Ryan "Aaron" Garko...Dammit it's just not the same!
by boonitez on Nov 21, 2009 11:56 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
enough with this obs stuff
Adopted Giant: Henry Sosa
by raisingcain on Nov 21, 2009 10:22 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
It is like PMS. No ammmount to telling an make it stop.
Who’s brain did you bring me?
Brain SabeanOranother.
by daveinexile on Nov 22, 2009 9:31 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I didn’t even have to look at the avatar/name to know this was the work of Mike Fox
by Lobsterkite on Nov 21, 2009 10:51 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
he’s proof that all foxes aren’t sly.
No Edgar, it's not your fault, it's the fault of the idiot that plays you
by rxmeister on Nov 22, 2009 5:31 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I just noticed that he didn’t include Renteria in the starting line-up and apparently thinks Tejada is still a decent defensive shortstop. Cool.
Joe Martinez: You are cool.
When it's all said and done, America will be remembered for three things: The Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
by cornball on Nov 22, 2009 10:31 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I like that I can tell that its a Mike Fox post before I’m halfway through. I like the idea of offering Molina arbitration. I’m pretty confident his ego will force him to decline, and we’ll swoop on the two extra picks. Howry might be worth 2mm if we weren’t penny pinching already, and the risk isn’t worth the draft pick. I say we cut ties with all 4, and pick up the 2 extra picks courtesy of Molina’s ego.
by AndrewWK on Nov 22, 2009 1:10 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
The Not-So-Fantastic Mr. Fox.
Barry Zito: Mike Hampton with a guitar
by JakeS on Nov 24, 2009 12:09 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with offering arbitration to Molina and Howry
(Though all they need to do is offer arbitration. The actual money offer doesn’t happen unless the player accepts).
Molina might be a risk, but if Sabean is right about things being a late-developing market, that is a HUGE advantage for the teams. Players will be more likely to decline arbitration and go for a better offer, especially those like Molina. The new rule that a team can still negotiate with a player who declines arbitration (that didn’t exist three years ago) means a lot; the player still leaves his ‘going home’ option open. And for Type B free agents, a player has nothing much to lose by declining.
Howry should be a freakin’ no-brainer. I mean, honestly. Really?
"The knowledge of the game is inversely proportional to the price of the seat." ---Bill Veeck. •Now you can follow SFDugout.com on Twitter and Facebook!•
by BruteSentiment on Nov 21, 2009 9:48 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
I wouldn’t offer Howry arbitration. You can easily find a reliever on the FA market who did what he did for one million dollars. If Howry accepts, he’ll make three million. The type B compensation isn’t worth what he’ll cost.
No Edgar, it's not your fault, it's the fault of the idiot that plays you
by rxmeister on Nov 22, 2009 5:35 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed. Except I don’t think there’s any “if” about Howry accepting arbitration. It would be a guarantee of over $2mil for 2010. There’s just no way he can anticipate getting that kind of guaranteed money on the open market. I would think his agent is praying for an arbitration offer from the Giants about now.
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
by Roger on Nov 22, 2009 8:05 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
No way on Howry
Yes on Molina, because I think he leaves no matter what. The Mets have the advantage that they will not give up their 1st round pick due to protection, and its easier to feel comfortable about giving up a #2.
No on Howry; relievers can accept and we could end up paying $4M to our 4th best reliever.
I dunno if the Giants could work out something with Winn; ie, where the player agreed not to accept arb; since he’s a Type B free agent, the signing team doesn’t lose, and the Giants gain a 2nd round pick. The Padres did this a couple of years ago and got a bounty, and dunno if Winn feels enough goodwill towards the Giants to make it worthwhie.
Jonathan Sanchez. He's left-handed, like Barry Zito. His fastball breaks 80, unlike Zito.
by Aadik on Nov 22, 2009 2:49 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
$4M Is Not A Realistic Risk
More like $3M.
by giantsrainman on Nov 22, 2009 3:54 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
either way.
Howry was an okay reliever, but okay relievers can be had for much less than 3 mil.
Please hit better, Randy Winn.
by oldjacket on Nov 23, 2009 7:46 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
If they offer Winn, he would accept because he knows he would start for Bochy.
"All I know is right now, you comeback and do you dwell on that? I think you're man enough to take it, you're man enough to chew on it, to spit it out and you learn from it. ... I think winners let it go. I think losers dwell on it and talk about it all week and that screws you up for the next opportunity going forward." - Mike Singletary after the 49ers loss to the Vikings
by SFGuy on Nov 22, 2009 5:29 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
You're missing one key piece of info on Molina
I wholeheartedly agree with all of your decisions, except for Howry, but more on that later.
You left out a very pertinent piece of info on Molina and arbitration. If the Giants do offer him arb by the Dec. 1st deadline, he must accept or deny the offer within a short time frame (I believe it is only 1 or 2 weeks). This is huge because I believe Molina has the chance to repeat the huge mistake that Jason Varitek made last year with Boston. Varitek turned down arb (guaranteed to make at least $10M) and ended up signing a 1 year deal with the Bosox for only $5M.
Molina has a huge ego – he thinks a 1 year deal and a pay cut would be a personal insult. He thinks that he’s worth much more than the market values him, and has no clue how little the market values him at. I don’t see his agent being able to convince him of the opposite. I can’t see any scenario where he accepts arb because of the short time frame he has to accept it in – at this point the respect and a multi-year deal means more to him than the guaranteed money. I think he most likely ends up signing a 1 year deal with an option year tacked on. The only teams that will sign him if he refuses arb are the ones in the bottom 15. No team will give up their 1st round pick for him. I believe that the Mets, and their crappy GM (Omar Minaya), whose job is hanging by a thread) will sign him (along with Jason Bay and John Lackey or other similar big-name FAs) in an attempt to create buzz and steal some ink from the Yankees.
Back to Bobby Howry. I believe that he is almost a lock to accept arb, and will most likely win his arb hearing if it goes that far. The Giants would be on the hook for at least $2.2M, but most likely it will be closer to $3M. I would rather take about $1M of that money and sign a couple of cheap bullpen FAs with some potential (like we did with Medders and Smith last year). Then use the extra $$$ to go after 1 or 2 international FAs next summer. We should be able to get a better prospect or 2 than what would be available in the round 1 supplemental (in the unlikely chance that Howry declines arb and signs with another team).
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
by Fla-Giant on Nov 23, 2009 3:14 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
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