Giants out on Bay, Holliday -- Is that a bad thing?
by Grant Brisbee on Nov 20, 2009 3:26 PM PST
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-Q: Holliday and Bay are the big names… Have you gauged their possible interest? Do you think either of those guys would have genuine interest in coming to the Giants?-SABEAN: We have not. I don’t think that they would have genuine interest based on the field that they’re going to be involved in. Why would they?
I think Sabean's a little cheektender from when he pursued Gary Matthews, Juan Pierre, Alfonso Soriano, and Carlos Lee, offered them tons of cash, and watched them use the Giants' offer as leverage. But there are a couple of different ways to take the "Why would they?" line:
a. San Francisco is a smelly town with smelly people and I hate it and they would too because it smells, or...
b. Teams with deep pockets are going to be after those two, and the Giants are not going to get into a fiscal tinkling match with those teams.
I'm, uh, going to guess it's "b." Bay and Holliday are the elite free agents of this class. They're going to be paid like elite players. And the Giants, yet again, are going to choose not to go after the elite players of a free agency class. At first glance, this would appear to be the Geddina Lee philosophy.
Geddina Lee philosophy -- n. -- A belief that it's better to sleep with ten women who look like Geddy Lee rather than sleep with one woman who looks like Charlize Theron
And, brother, that's not a good philosophy. Except that it's a stretch to call Bay and Holliday elite players -- they're just the best of the available lot. Look back at that list of unrequited free agent love: Gary Matthews, Jr. and Juan Pierre were obvious chunks of pyrite, and it's shameful that Sabean considered either of them. But Lee and Soriano are interesting to remember.
Lee was an offense-first left fielder who was a bit of an airship disaster in the field, and who didn't project to age well. Soriano was a guy who had just turned 30, was an average fielder, and hit like an All-Star. Which is all to say: Lee's kind of a rough comp for Bay, and Soriano is kind of a rough comp for Holliday. If you're interested in either Lee or Soriano, you can get both of them for a game-used Lance Niekro wristband. If you're interested in Bay or Holliday, you can hold onto the wristband and just pony up about $100M or so, crossing your fingers that they don't turn into Carlos Lee or Alfonso Soriano.
That's kind of unfair, as Lee was never the walking machine that Bay was, and Soriano was never as patient as Holliday is. And Lee can still hit a little, so it isn't fair to hold him up as a disaster of a deal. But the point remains: Be careful with your definition of "elite" free agents. Over the past ten years, I count only three players who made sense for $100M+ contracts: A 28-year-old Vladimir Guerrero, a 27-year-old Carlos Beltran, and a 25-year-old Alex Rodriguez. Those are players to build around, to whom you commit a quarter of your payroll. Those are the players you get on your team for not pursuing.
All things being equal, I would like Matt Holliday on the Giants. But if he's going to be paid like a elite hitter by a team with crazy-deep pockets, and the Giants aren't willing to pay elite money, I'm not going to blame them. Now, should the Giants really be a $100M payroll kind of team, or should they be pushing $120M or $140M? That's a post for another time, though I suspect it's the latter. If it's the former, though, Holliday and Bay are huge risks, and I can't fault the Giants for not wanting to take on the commitments.
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You know, at a glance Tim Lincecum kinda looks like Geddy Lee.
No, really, I have updated my blog this year: http://skaldheim.livejournal.com/tag/baseball
"My friend once told me a story about San Francisco Giants pitcher Tim Lincecum. He said his cousin went out to a bar in San Francisco and saw Lincecum there. He went up to him to give him a handshake.
Lincecum refused. He didn’t want to give him a handshake. He wanted to give him a chest bump."
by Tim LinCyYoung on Nov 20, 2009 5:31 PM PST up reply actions
i dunno. but the little guy from the movie Willow has bigger hands
"My friend once told me a story about San Francisco Giants pitcher Tim Lincecum. He said his cousin went out to a bar in San Francisco and saw Lincecum there. He went up to him to give him a handshake.
Lincecum refused. He didn’t want to give him a handshake. He wanted to give him a chest bump."
by Tim LinCyYoung on Nov 20, 2009 5:39 PM PST up reply actions
Yoko Ono?
"All I know is right now, you comeback and do you dwell on that? I think you're man enough to take it, you're man enough to chew on it, to spit it out and you learn from it. ... I think winners let it go. I think losers dwell on it and talk about it all week and that screws you up for the next opportunity going forward." - Mike Singletary after the 49ers loss to the Vikings
SCREEEEEEEEECH peace SCREEEEEEEEECH
... null, void, invalid, iniquitous, unjust, damnable, reprobate, inane, empty of meaning and effect for all time
/stands in doorway naked as people walk through
I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
Mr. F! | comics | art | New Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory
Oh no. He does.
Joe Martinez: You are cool.
When it's all said and done, America will be remembered for three things: The Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
There are some nice potential combinations of second tier guys (Johnson or Delgado/Cameron/Penny, for example), but I’m not sure they’re the ones Sabean is going to be looking at.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
What’s the 2009 offseason equivalent of Rich Aurilia and Edgar Renteria? Because that’s who I’m expecting we’ll pursue.
I'm thinking but nothing's happening.
I think...
You should be banned just for mentioning his name.
by AmorVincitOmnia on Nov 20, 2009 5:33 PM PST up reply actions
LOL ok
well we’re going to see him in orange and black, so get used to it.
Extremely proud adoptive parent of Paul E. Stanley, deserved all-star and hacker extraordinaire
Thanks to roger
I've never been happier to have Crabs
Did not even make Stark’s top 50 FAs. Lower than Uribe.
Joe Martinez: You are cool.
When it's all said and done, America will be remembered for three things: The Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
Welcome to the club jermaine!
Extremely proud adoptive parent of Paul E. Stanley, deserved all-star and hacker extraordinaire
Thanks to roger
I've never been happier to have Crabs
Those are the guys I want
and it kind of surprised me to hear Sabean thinking along the same lines (at least in regard to the type of free agent he’ll try to pursue). I’d sure like Holliday, but I’m afraid his contract, combined with Zito’s and Rowand’s, will tie up the payroll too much. We’re going to have to start paying them young studs sometime.
There wasn’t much that I disagreed with in Sabean’s comments, for that matter. Bengie would be acceptable on a one-year deal, for less money, on the explicit understanding that he’s Posey’s backup, but Sabean knows that’s not going to happen, so he’s willing to let Bengie walk instead of giving him a three year deal in order to get him in 2010. I was a little skeptical of the “we don’t want to give up pitching for short-term players” comment considering last season’s trades, but again it’s a thought I agree with entirely. The comment’s regarding Lincecum were also good; he didn’t really do much wrong, and the only reason he’s catching so much shit for it is because he’s Tim Lincecum. There was even a veiled reference to getting Uggla (we could move Sanchez to 3rd). Of course, when he signs Dye/Byrd and LaRoche as the “second tier free agents” instead of Cameron and Johnson I’ll hate him again, but for now I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt (which he has in no way earned).
/waves hand in front of stormtrooper.
These are not the elite players that have a chance of making a huge impact.
Move along.
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Nov 20, 2009 3:37 PM PST up reply actions
…and nine innings later…
If you can get 3:2 on a headline of "Giants Pitcher Assaults General Manager" at some point this year, take it.
by esseffgeez on Nov 21, 2009 9:29 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Well, yea, you know there should be other players that should be contributors and have power, it can’t be just Holliday and Bay… Those are the two big guys the giants need, but aren’t there other players out there?
I think Holliday is a safer bet than you’re making him out to be, but you’re still going to be spending $20+ million a year on a guy’s age 30-36 seasons. And that’s a little worrisome. I’d probably still be intrigued by the idea of Matt Holliday on the Giants, but it would be with some trepidation. And they’d pretty much have to find some way to dump salary elsewhere.
Bay, on the other hand, would be another Rowand contract, imo.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
And yeah
The part that seems to be forgotten is that we’re not just talking about 2010, we’re talking about 2011-2015 and beyond as well. That Soriano deal looked okay after year one and year two right? Not so much right now.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
And if we were a Matt Holliday away from a good offense/playoff team, I’d be fer ‘em, 2013 be damned. As is, I’m aginn ’em.
by Grant Brisbee on Nov 20, 2009 3:43 PM PST up reply actions
Honestly
Even keeping Rent, adding Holliday/Johnson:
Holliday
Johnson
Sandoval
Sanchez
Rent
Bowker
Rowand
Posey
would probably be at least average offensively, and with this pitching staff, a definite playoff contender.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
DO WANT
Extremely proud adoptive parent of Paul E. Stanley, deserved all-star and hacker extraordinaire
Thanks to roger
I've never been happier to have Crabs
Spending all our money on him, and spending time on him.
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Nov 20, 2009 3:56 PM PST up reply actions
The road splits for his career is pretty awful.
Bruce Bochy would like you to look at the career numbers and stop complaining.
Bob Howry's #1 (and only) fan!!!
The Merkin Valdez of McCovey Chronicles!!!!!!
Not this badly though.
Bruce Bochy would like you to look at the career numbers and stop complaining.
Bob Howry's #1 (and only) fan!!!
The Merkin Valdez of McCovey Chronicles!!!!!!
Most hitters probably do worse than .284 / .353 / .454 on the road, actually.
He had sub-.800 OPSs on the road his first two seasons, but he’s been above .800 ever since.
His 2007-2009 Road Split line: .303 / .385 / .475
That is not, in fact, “pretty awful.” It’s quite good.
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
Our team doesn't have to add "elite"
Adding some competent hitters would be a nice start
YOU EAT YOUR DAMN EGGROLL
This is third response to your comment I have written, the other two I type and then delete. I agreed with you comment, and then I was explaining why and realized that I couldn’t back it up. I would write things like, “If C and SS are league average, then the Giants will be alright…” I felt the same about the outfield. Problem is, the Giants were WAY far from being league average offensively at every position except for 3B. They make up for a lot of that defensively. I was thinking that they should get some regression (positively) from Nate, Rowand, 1B, Sanchez, C, SS, and LF, but then I thought, “Will they?” This offense is really stinky and I while I hope that Nate, while never being a world beater, will get better, he often looked really poor last year; same for Rowand. I think Rent will be better – it’s really impossible to be worse – but he’s done.
So the Giants would be better with some competent pieces, but there is just too much money tied up in the incompetent pieces to make a difference. Also, there is just too much incompetence in management to make much of a difference.
/auto-defenestrates
something something jhiat00 will swindle
Young Studs for Old Bats: The Brian Sabean Story
FREE KEVIN FRANDSEN!!! Member of the Frandsen 5% Club.
by Uribe nee Gonzalez on Nov 20, 2009 4:01 PM PST up reply actions
Sure but those lousy contracts aren’t going anywhere. What’s done is done. If we could go back in time and free up more money and take back the Zito, Rowand, Renteria, whoever contracts, then yeah we would be in better shape this offseason.
Reality is we have to do what we can do with our current resources.
YOU EAT YOUR DAMN EGGROLL
I don’t disagree, I just don’t see where the improvement will realistically come from. In my mind, these are the positions that the Giants will realistically (from management perspective) have a chance to improve:
1B/3B (if Pablo slides over to 1B)
C
LF
RF
But realistically, LF and RF will not both be fixed via trade/FA. Nate, Lewis, Bowker, or most likely Velez (sigh…) will be playing one of the OF positions even IF the Giants get a new outfielder.
Honestly, I think the Giants get a shitty catcher and a LHH 1B and that’s it. Velez in LF, Nate in RF, the pitching regresses and they are a .500 team.
/auto-defenestrates
something something jhiat00 will swindle
Young Studs for Old Bats: The Brian Sabean Story
FREE KEVIN FRANDSEN!!! Member of the Frandsen 5% Club.
by Uribe nee Gonzalez on Nov 20, 2009 4:13 PM PST up reply actions
Just what we really need: more left-handed hitters. Pablo, Nate, and Eugenio are all primarily left-handed. Our right-handed hitters – Rent, Freddy, Scott – either can’t hit or can’t hit homers. This team really needs a RH power bat and isn’t going to get one this off-season.
Joe Martinez: You are cool.
When it's all said and done, America will be remembered for three things: The Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
I think
it’s going to take old-fashioned dumb luck, as in scrap heap guys like Uribe (NOT BY RESIGNING HIM FOR MILLIONS OK THANK YOU) showing up and hitting the cover off the ball, or having some AAAA guy have a Jack Cust 2007. Kind of the polar opposite of the ‘bad luck" they’ve had with Rowand and such.
Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."
Nobody puts Bengie in a corner!
by natteringnabob on Nov 20, 2009 4:16 PM PST up reply actions
Gotta be due for some talent to come up from AAA and help us out after so many failures last year…right?
YOU EAT YOUR DAMN EGGROLL
I don't believe you've met my friend Juan Uribe.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
furthermore
I think we were exceedingly lucky that both Lincecum and Sandoval turned out to be as good as they have been.
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
-------
PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game currently in early planning stages.
While Uribe was signed to a minor league contract, I do mean one of our actual minor leaguers
YOU EAT YOUR DAMN EGGROLL
what I was getting at
was that Juan Uribe being as unexpectedly good as he was balanced out all the MiL “failures” at least from a luck standpoint.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
I don’t know about balancing out. We had so many guys come up who just fell flat, and yes some could be because of BORK’s usage of them and maybe them not being ready but still we got very little from
Nate, Bowker, Frandsen, Downs, Rohlinger, etc etc
YOU EAT YOUR DAMN EGGROLL
yeah but
Juan Uribe was worth 2 full wins over his career average with the bat.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
I don't think
the sum total of all our callups underperformed their projections by anywhere near 2 WAR
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
I think it was more them not providing any sort of boost for us rather than them under-performing so much that they were hurting us
YOU EAT YOUR DAMN EGGROLL
I think we need
another Uribe and a Morneau-type find. It could happen!
Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."
Nobody puts Bengie in a corner!
by natteringnabob on Nov 20, 2009 4:34 PM PST up reply actions
Yes. This is what I was originally getting at. I wouldn’t put Uribe at Morneau’s level but yeah. We’ll still need a flash of the pan from a few signings and hopefully from some minor league call ups
YOU EAT YOUR DAMN EGGROLL
I really don't think so.
If you sign Holliday, he and Panda alone are the equivalent (in WAR) of ~5-6 ML average starters. I think 2B and CF will give us about league average performance, and that right there is almost a league average position group, even with a gaping hole at SS. If Bowker can show that his AAA performance wasn’t a fluke, or GarkoKawa give us about what we expect, or Posey can beat Bengie’s offensive numbers, we’re right in the middle of “this thing”
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
Lot of “ifs”.
/auto-defenestrates
something something jhiat00 will swindle
Young Studs for Old Bats: The Brian Sabean Story
FREE KEVIN FRANDSEN!!! Member of the Frandsen 5% Club.
by Uribe nee Gonzalez on Nov 20, 2009 4:43 PM PST up reply actions
Your “if” to “good bet” ratio is like 2:1. Not good.
/auto-defenestrates
something something jhiat00 will swindle
Young Studs for Old Bats: The Brian Sabean Story
FREE KEVIN FRANDSEN!!! Member of the Frandsen 5% Club.
by Uribe nee Gonzalez on Nov 20, 2009 4:44 PM PST up reply actions
lots of ifs
and "or"s, not "and"s
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
and to clarify
by “show his AAA performance wasn’t a fluke” means hit about league average or better, not match his AAA numbers.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
the key is
without Holliday – who is far more of a sure thing than ANY of our position players – we have very, very little hope of an average offense.
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
-------
PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game currently in early planning stages.
this
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
disagree
well, agree, in that it doesn’t need to be a BIG POWER HITTER, but a legit star (of which Holliday is the only one in this class) (which is why I wouldn’t be too bummed if we didn’t get him, but I’m pissed as hell that Sabes won’t even try) is worth a LOT.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
Ok, i’ll agree, it doesnt have to be a BIG POWER HITTER, but yes a legit player, but if they don’t get Holliday you need productive hitters
But who gets replaced? Three-fourths of the infield is locked in. Our CF is a given and I don’t think Sabean will replace both corner outfielders. That means Sabean will likely only sign two FAs to start and three at most. One of those will be a catcher who will not be expected to hit. So really, we’re only talking about a substantial upgrade at maybe one position. Maybe. If that’s the situation you’re in, you’re much much much better off shooting for the stars.
Joe Martinez: You are cool.
When it's all said and done, America will be remembered for three things: The Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
Looking back, I realize my comment is somewhat replaced and is not truly a reply to PiKA. But this needs to be repeated over and over again. There are not many open spots on the field for the 2010 SF Giants.
Joe Martinez: You are cool.
When it's all said and done, America will be remembered for three things: The Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
If talent is a pyramid...
… then there’s lots of money bidding on the guys at the top. In theory, it should be cheaper to upgrade multiple crappy positions.
But you guys make a good point about the crappy positions that are still locked in. Grr.
"The questions are so stupid. I don't believe in rivalries. I don't believe in curses. Wake up the damn Bambino, maybe I'll drill him in the ass."
- Pedro Martinez, asked about the Curse of the Bambino
by achiappanza on Nov 20, 2009 11:35 PM PST up reply actions
It's true that it's cheaper to upgrade bad positions, but there's two problems
1) Upgrading crappy to average gets you an average team. The point is to win championships, not finish at .500. Eventually, a team has to acquire several above average or better players to go along with its adequate ones.
2) It’s (theoretically) easier to “fill holes” with virtually free talent, either through the minor league system or through scrap-heap pickups, than it is to find the stars you need from #1 that way.
3) Elite players (well, elite hitters) tend to hold their value better than just average ones (both because the elite players have more talent to lose, and because they tend to hit free agency younger). So if you’ve got a bunch of 32 year old average guys, and a couple of 29 year old really good guys, and both groups want contracts through their age 36 seasons, you’re probably better off giving the money to the really good guys.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
RE:1
I think we, as Giants’ Fans, need to properly value upside. A team with 4-6 league average position players under age 30 is a completely different than team of league average position players were most of the position players are 32, or older, and only 1-3 under 30 position players on it. For one thing the first type of team has much greater chance of running into a break out year or two in a given season let alone seasons were the player just pleasantly surprises us by doing more than was expected ( i.e. Lewis 2008).
Because of this (with my disgust with the Fred Sanchez decisions aside) how Lewis was treated and Garko get treated will go a long ways toward how much defining just how stupid the Sabean/Bochey team truly is. The 2010 ( and 2011) squad cannot keep trading ceiling for higher floor and expect to contend without the vast bulk of the NL remaining in the tank.
Who’s brain did you bring me?
Brain SabeanOranother.
this is true
where some = 5
It’s simply not practical for the Giants to replace 5 of their BABURs (Below-Average-But-Above-Replacement) players for competent players.
Replacing 1 with a competent player doesn’t really get them that far… with the possible exception of SS (which I would estimate to be the most difficult position to replace)
The sad thing is – the ONLY probable way the Giants team is going to get significantly better (i.e, approach average) is by signing Matt Holliday or some “Morneu-like-talent”. Signing even a guy like Bay isn’t that great because of the defensive hit. Signing Nick Johnson would help, but not enough. Making a trade just treads water (presumably trading pitching for hitting) or screws the future (Bumgarner).
Of course the worst is trading the future (Barnes/Alderson) for mediocrity… but the chance of that has been substantially reduced.
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
-------
PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game currently in early planning stages.
by zenbitz on Nov 20, 2009 4:06 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Complete agreement
Joe Martinez: You are cool.
When it's all said and done, America will be remembered for three things: The Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
So your saying the elephant in the room is BABAR?
Utter frustration and futility.
by Johnny Disaster on Nov 20, 2009 10:56 PM PST up reply actions
No, it’s Babar’s cousin: That Rascal Bochy.
Joe Martinez: You are cool.
When it's all said and done, America will be remembered for three things: The Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
K-Law's Top 50 FAs
Since it’s vaguely on-topic, I’ll post this here rather than as a fanshot. Keith Law has listed his Top 50 free agents for the coming winter. Not featured: Bengie Molina. Penny’s at 21, and Winn and Uribe make into the last five.
For those who are not silly enough to be “insiders”, the top 10:
1. Holliday
2. Bay
3. Lackey
4. Pineiro
5. Aroldis Chapman
6. Pettite
7. Wolf
8. Hudson
9. Felipe Lopez
10. Noel Arguelles
Where’s Figgins? I’m trying to get my head around any sane person preferring Felipe Lopez to Chone Figgins.
Yeah, but on the other hand, he consistently has one of the highest line-drive rates in the game. He’s not getting by on cheap hits.
Last year was a fluke year for him in terms of OBP.
Joe Martinez: You are cool.
When it's all said and done, America will be remembered for three things: The Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
Really?
2007: .393
2008: .367
2009: .395
He was above .350 in 2005, too.
2009 was probably the best case scenario for him, but it wasn’t a one-season fluke.
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
It wasn’t a one-season fluke. OBP in full seasons (04-09): 350, 352, 336, 393 (BABIP of 391!), 367, 395. Now, you could argue that there is a general upward trend. I wouldn’t, but you could. Instead, I’d argue that – at his very best – he’s a 390 guy with no power and speed that is very likely to diminish. Normally, he’s probably a 350-360 guy, which is very good, sure, but not what he’s going to be paid for. My opinion: he would be an extremely useful player as a 3B or LF for the Giants. However, one of his chief skills is likely to erode significantly over the course of his sure to be very over-priced contract. Holliday’s skills (OBP, SLG) are less to erode.
Joe Martinez: You are cool.
When it's all said and done, America will be remembered for three things: The Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
And Holliday is 2 years younger.
Extremely proud adoptive parent of Paul E. Stanley, deserved all-star and hacker extraordinaire
Thanks to roger
I've never been happier to have Crabs
by bondslegend on Nov 21, 2009 10:15 AM PST up reply actions
I don’t think anyone is arguing that Figgins is better or more desirable than Matt Holliday. I’m just saying he’s a very good player who’s worthy of consideration, even for a big contract. To my mind, he’s clearly the #3 free agent, behind Holliday and Lackey.
I guess “his speed is very likely to diminish” is the conventional wisdom, but I think it’s 100% wrong. By and large, fast guys stay fast, and if they have good plate discipline, they stay good at getting on base. Rickey Henderson was still drawing walks and stealing bases even when he couldn’t do anything else. Brett Butler had no more power than Figgins, but he kept having the same year every year till he was nearly 40. Dave Roberts was better in his mid-30s than in his late 20s. Etc.
ugh
No. Just no. Figgins is coming off a career year and is over 30. Aaron Rowand v2.0 anyone?
Figgin’s WAR the last 4 years – 0, 3.1, 2.4, 6.1, or, replacement, above average, slightly above average, superstar.
He’s a subpar defender at every position except 3rd, and his bat doesn’t bring enough value to justify shifting Pablo to 1st, especially not for the money he will command.
Just for a reference, Rowand’s WAR the 4 years before we signed him – 5.6, 3.7, 1.3, 6.2
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
What If He Ends Up Only Costing 3yrs And $20M?
by giantsrainman on Nov 21, 2009 10:34 PM PST up reply actions
Of course I’d take that deal for Figgins. That would be a steal. But he’s probably going to get 4 or 5 for 10+ a year.
Joe Martinez: You are cool.
When it's all said and done, America will be remembered for three things: The Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
Yeah, that’s not going to happen. 4/40 seems about right, and I think he’d help the team at that price. Any more than that and I’d let him go.
I’d take Figgins at 4/40. Sign Fig, trade for Uggla, and that’s a much better offense. Figgins can play LF, right?
Figgins
Sanchez
Uggla
Sandoval
Rowand
Posey
Juggernate
Renteria
Pitcher
That has the potential to be a major league offense.
Give -peace- Ryan Garko a chance.
he can play it poorly
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
Better than Fred Lewis!
Oh God I’m joking please don’t kill me.
You’re right, his UZR is in the slight negatives in LF. Still, he’s a more affordable LF option than, say, Bay or Holliday, and though he’s a different kind of offensive boost, he’s a fairly big upgrade nonetheless.
Give -peace- Ryan Garko a chance.
no, he's really not
If you’re going to sign Figgins to play LF, you might as well just put Lewis out there. If you sign Holliday, you get a MUCH larger offensive boost, and it isn’t even close.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
lol
If I thought fred lewis had a chance of playing, I would agree with you.
Give -peace- Ryan Garko a chance.
/cry
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
Saying that a player with Figgins’s speed plays left field poorly because of a tiny sample of UZR numbers from four or five years ago is dubious. I’d bet money that if he starts in left for two years, he’ll rank as one of the three best left fielders in the game.
Though I’d play him in right or at shortstop.
2.3k innings of OF work is hardly a “tiny sample”. It’s not huge, but still, I’d rather just save the $ and put Lewis out there.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
It was a fluke in the sense of his walk total increasing his OBP. He had never come close to that walk total before. He still walked a decent amount, but in 2007 his OBP was inflated because of his average.
I wonder whether walk spikes like that tend to be flukes. I would guess that they’re more likely to be caused by a new approach, and therefore durable.
Actually good point, never looked closely enough before, but Figgins BB % has been increasing over the past 3 years. 2007 10.3%, 2008 12.0% and 14.1 % last year. In 2007 and 2008 he only played 115 games, he played 158 this year.
Also in Law’s example of Tony Phillips below, he had shown good walk totals previously in his career but he had only been a part time player.
11th
Quoth Law:
Figgins had a huge walk year, and because he also does a lot of “little” things well, like bunt, run and play hard, he’s destined to be overpaid this offseason. Yes, it’s possible that Figgins, a powerless slap hitter whom pitchers can challenge on the inner half, has suddenly become Tony Phillips; it’s also possible that this was a one-year fluke when he had a free-agent payday in his sights. His best and most reliable skill is his fielding; he’s comfortably plus at third base and can handle second. Between that and the fact that he’s been an acceptable on-base guy even in down years, Figgins has value, but some team is going to forget that he’ll be 32 next season and hasn’t performed at this level before and will give him too many years at too much money.
Hello San Francisco!
"All I know is right now, you comeback and do you dwell on that? I think you're man enough to take it, you're man enough to chew on it, to spit it out and you learn from it. ... I think winners let it go. I think losers dwell on it and talk about it all week and that screws you up for the next opportunity going forward." - Mike Singletary after the 49ers loss to the Vikings
Thanks. For me, it was the consistently high line drive rates that convinced me he’s for real. He doesn’t try to get the ball over the fence, but he makes good contact.
We’ll see what kind of contract he gets. OBP and defense still tend to be undervalued, and “speed” guys have disappointed lately (Pierre, GMJ), so his price may not be all that high.
Figgins would obviously help the team, but I’m still not a huge fan at the likely price. If he went for 3/$25M, that would be a great deal. 4/$40M would have a good chance of turning sour, I think. But the counter-argument is that signing Figgins is probably the only way that Eugenio Velez will not be the Giants’ opening day leadoff man. That’s probably worth overpaying somewhat.
Still, I’m of the mind that they could get Cameron and Johnson or Delgado on short deals for the same price as Figgins, and I would think the former option would help more.
But the counter-argument is that signing Figgins is probably the only way that Eugenio Velez will not be the Giants’ opening day leadoff man
ugh. Don’t remind me.
VROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
I wish this meme would die.
Nobody VROOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMs on the way back to the dugout.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
And Dye doesn't make the list at all.
Joe Martinez: You are cool.
When it's all said and done, America will be remembered for three things: The Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
LOL @ whatever team gives Pineiro a huge deal and he turns back into a pumpkin.
Randy Wolf >>> Joel Piniero.
Yeah, that seems crazy. I guess Pineiro wouldn’t be the first failed power pitcher to reinvent himself as a control artist, but I wouldn’t want to pay him much unless I had a great infield defense. And preferably Dave Duncon on the payroll.
dave duncan is pretty much the reason for his success
and maybe if he stays with the cards, he continues to experience that success
Free Agents
I’m intrigued with Troy Glaus. I know the injury thing, but the Cards thought he was well enough to put him on the playoff roster. If he’s well and cheap that would be a good pickup.
For a cheap 1-year deal...
I agree.
Same goes for Delgado.
by AmorVincitOmnia on Nov 20, 2009 5:36 PM PST up reply actions
atkins
i would let garko walk, and see if we could get atkins for a 2yr deal (maybe 2yr at 8 mil, or so), after the rockies non-tender him. he has experience at first, and use ishi for defense and against tough righties. also, we’re going to need a solid middle infielder if uribe is not returning. i want someone who can be used for a defensive replacement for rent. this will not be popular with some of you, but i want khalil green. he won’t cost much, and could be more valuable than uribe if defense is factored in.
by giantdonkey on Nov 20, 2009 10:26 PM PST up reply actions
OPS+ by year
Garko:
2007: 119
2008: 101
2009: 103
Atkins:
2007: 113
2008: 96
2009: 66
I’ll pass.
And please, no Spiccoli. His defense is actually a lot worse than Uribe’s. He’s been sub-replacement for two years in a row.
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
fair enough
let me see if i have it right.
uribe> spiccoli> renteria….
by giantdonkey on Nov 20, 2009 10:36 PM PST up reply actions
Uribe > Renteria > Spiccoli
OPS+ last five years
Greene: 95, 97, 101, 65, 63
Renteria: 89, 104, 124, 83, 63
UZR last three years
Greene: -3, -7.5, -6.1
Renteria: -2.3, -0.9, -0.2
Rent has been the better fielder for the past few years (really? REALLY? yeah, Spiccoli sucks with the glove). Neither can hit anymore so that’s the real difference between the two.
Joe Martinez: You are cool.
When it's all said and done, America will be remembered for three things: The Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
Do people buy Greene’s UZRs? I don’t remember seeing him this year, but he looked very good with the Padres.
He always had very bad range and was long reputed by scouts to be one of the game’s lesser defenders. He does have decent hands and a good arm, but very little in the way of athleticism.
Joe Martinez: You are cool.
When it's all said and done, America will be remembered for three things: The Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
You know all the talk about the supremely talented NBA's 2010 Free Agent class?
Well for MLB’s 2009 free agents, it’s the opposite. I just don’t see Holliday, who will definitely get the biggest contract this winter, as that much of a difference-maker in the Giants’ lineup to justify the money that he’ll get. The same goes for Bay as he’ll command a giant contract too but at a slightly lower price.
I also think Sabean is more gun shy now about giving out huge contacts after signing Zito and Rowand to big deals but both produced less than desired results. The other factor is Lincecum and Cain, they will both command long term deals soon and Timmy will eventually want a Zitoesque or even a CC-sized (both the money and his body) contract.
Us fans know exactly what Timmy and Matt can do and definitely want to see them as Giants until their arms fall off, should the Giants let one of them leave via free agency — it’ll be like a kick to the groin after having being anally-probed. Ugh.
Now, I don’t mind eating some major crow should Holliday or Bay had a MVP 2010 season and single handedly lead their team to the title but I have a better shot at fondling Alyssa Milano ( I heard she kinda like baseball?).
Win the inning.
Ability to upgrade in multiple positions with the pot of money that a Holliday or Bay wants will be a net gain on offense. Finding 2-3 replacements over what the 2009 giants had at the corner OF positions and at the corner IF position not occupied by a Panda would be a better investment, if Sabean was capable of finding worthy investments…
for once
I actually don’t even this this is possible (take $20M/per for 2010-2012, throw it at 3 position players… how many net wins do you get?)
Sabean basically has three “rational” options, none of which are particularly tasty:
1) Sign Holliday
2) Stand pat, hold your .500 team together, hope for a miracle
3) Trade Cain AND Lincecum for prospects
If his payroll is really limited to ca $85M 2009 dollars, than the Giants are totally fucked by Zito & Rowand contracts.
The one exception to (2) is maybe to sign Nick Johnson who has some hope of being worth +2 wins over Garkikawa. +2 wins is +2 wins. Sanchez is probably +2 over the 2B mess last year. That gets us back MOST of the luck wins. I think the OF and pitching is not likely to be as good as last year, and I see no cheap way to substantially improve the OF.
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
-------
PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game currently in early planning stages.
Mind me asking why you think the OF will be worse?
To me replaceing Winn’s PA’s with more Nate/Lewis/Bowker gives the 2010 squad a good chance to be more productive than the 2009 OF.
Who’s brain did you bring me?
Brain SabeanOranother.
Nate did not actually out hit Winn (although Chone likes him a little)
Torres/Velez likely worse than 2009 LFs.
Rowand likely to decay further
Bowker might be out hit Nate, but his defense is worse, so it’s probably a wash.
Since Giansz Brass hates Lewis, and he is our best OF, I can only assume that they will fail to make maximum use of their mediocre options.
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
-------
PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game currently in early planning stages.
So basically you think we will see the bulk of the Winn’s playing time & PA’s given to Velez & Torress? In that case I would join you being “down” on the OF in 2010.
Who’s brain did you bring me?
Brain SabeanOranother.
I don't know anything about minor league players, so I adopted the Coke Bottle, and it's totally grown on me.
'The longer I do this the smarter I get' --Brian Sabean
I’d do her, like, 10 times.
/auto-defenestrates
something something jhiat00 will swindle
Young Studs for Old Bats: The Brian Sabean Story
FREE KEVIN FRANDSEN!!! Member of the Frandsen 5% Club.
by Uribe nee Gonzalez on Nov 20, 2009 4:15 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
totally,
what does charlize have on her?
I don't know anything about minor league players, so I adopted the Coke Bottle, and it's totally grown on me.
'The longer I do this the smarter I get' --Brian Sabean
Well, two boobs, but the only people who are counting are spreadsheet-clutching nerds who live in their basement and don’t get laid. HI FIVE!!!
/auto-defenestrates
something something jhiat00 will swindle
Young Studs for Old Bats: The Brian Sabean Story
FREE KEVIN FRANDSEN!!! Member of the Frandsen 5% Club.
by Uribe nee Gonzalez on Nov 20, 2009 4:24 PM PST up reply actions
That prosthetic nose is so life-like!
Sometimes, there's a man...well, he's the man for his time and place.
Astronmers FTW!
Joe Martinez: You are cool.
When it's all said and done, America will be remembered for three things: The Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
You want to sleep with ten women that look like Derek Jeter? It’s a better option than the Geddina plan certainly…
Utter frustration and futility.
by Johnny Disaster on Nov 20, 2009 6:18 PM PST up reply actions
there is a reason
superstar players get superstar contracts.
Simply replacing Lewis (even though he wouldn’t be played anyways) with Holliday would be a net gain of ~4 WAR (Holliday’s been worth about 6 WAR each of the last 3 seasons), or the equivalent of replacing 4 1 WAR players with league average players. Oh, and he only takes up one roster spot.
The problem with Sabean’s strategy is that you only have 8 hitters starting each game. That’s only 8 (well, 7 for us) positions where improvement is even possible. Gaining 4 WAR in one position is much more valuable than gaining 1 WAR in 4 positions.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
I think this is a good strategy, Sabes might be learning
Now don’t screw this up and sign Dye. Honestly I think a good under the radar signing would be Ron Villone who could serve a LH MR
Generic Signature
only if I can say his name so the two parts rhyme
I suspect that you think tilting at windmills means something other than what it does
The only way we sign Holliday...
…is if there isn’t a bidding war for him. Sabean’s declaration was a wise move because saying he wants to go after Holliday only creates leverage for Holliday. If we act indifferent and the market for him is less than anticipated, we can sneak in and et him.
"We're in this thing!" My adopted Giant: "Raptor Jesus" Guzman, "Sweet Jesus" Guzman and Jesus H. Guzman.
that's the ticket
7th grade dance psychology! Ignore her so that she doesn’t know you like her, and she’ll be clamoring to go to homecoming!
(note to Mike Fox and his contemporaries: this stratagem worked poorly in many field tests)
Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."
Nobody puts Bengie in a corner!
by natteringnabob on Nov 20, 2009 5:05 PM PST up reply actions
DNW
wayy too expensive and coming off a career year. Also too old.
Extremely proud adoptive parent of Paul E. Stanley, deserved all-star and hacker extraordinaire
Thanks to roger
I've never been happier to have Crabs
this
Figgins shows all the signs of being Rowand v 2.0.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
DNW
Joe Martinez: You are cool.
When it's all said and done, America will be remembered for three things: The Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
I still want Holliday, even if he's expensive
what can I say? I like the guy
Extremely proud adoptive parent of Paul E. Stanley, deserved all-star and hacker extraordinaire
Thanks to roger
I've never been happier to have Crabs
I like Aurilia. He still isn’t that great.
Bruce Bochy would like you to look at the career numbers and stop complaining.
Bob Howry's #1 (and only) fan!!!
The Merkin Valdez of McCovey Chronicles!!!!!!
LOL comparing holliday and aurilia
I think Holliday is worth a big payday. He may get a little too much, but he’s a pretty complete player other than defense. But it’s not like he’s a TERRIBLE defender. He’s a good all-around player and really good hitter.
Extremely proud adoptive parent of Paul E. Stanley, deserved all-star and hacker extraordinaire
Thanks to roger
I've never been happier to have Crabs
by bondslegend on Nov 20, 2009 11:01 PM PST up reply actions
Have you seen his road split? I don’t want a guy who’s a career 74 OPS+ on the road getting $100 million plus.
Bruce Bochy would like you to look at the career numbers and stop complaining.
Bob Howry's #1 (and only) fan!!!
The Merkin Valdez of McCovey Chronicles!!!!!!
Last year he was 84 though!!
That is a little worrying I guess.
Extremely proud adoptive parent of Paul E. Stanley, deserved all-star and hacker extraordinaire
Thanks to roger
I've never been happier to have Crabs
by bondslegend on Nov 21, 2009 10:17 AM PST up reply actions
That’s actually his tOPS+, not OPS+. His career road line is .299 / .379 / .451, which would presumably translate to a lot more than 74.
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
Wait, I messed that up
That was his road line in 2009.
Career: .284 / .353 / .454
Still a lot better than a 74 OPS+.
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
2008 on the road: .293 / .408 / .488
2007: .301 / .374 / .485
Clearly, he benefitted by Coors, but he’s not Dante Bichette.
"Why not trade Bumgarner for some banger stud?" - sfgiants.com commenter or online porn ad? You be the judge!
Adopted Giant: the probably soon to be ditched but still awesome Fred Lewis
Seinfeld voice
This is what I’m saying.
But really who can go up against The Commitments?
... null, void, invalid, iniquitous, unjust, damnable, reprobate, inane, empty of meaning and effect for all time
Are You Saying This Is Coming?
Now, should the Giants really be a $100M payroll kind of team, or should they be pushing $120M or $140M? That’s a post for another time, though I suspect it’s the later.
If so, I can hardly wait. This is what I think is the real problem with the Giants.
$100M payroll ain't waht it used to be.
I always thought that the Gaints could, and should, be in the top third of payrolls, which would essentially put them in the 100M club (Seattle is #10 with $98.9M).
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
Yeah, $100m won’t get it done especially when you have 2-3 bad contracts like we do. I looked up annual payrolls for 00-09 though and for much of the decade, we were anywhere between #7 and #10 of all MLB teams. It was only in ’08 that we slashed payroll and became middle of the pack.
If you can get 3:2 on a headline of "Giants Pitcher Assaults General Manager" at some point this year, take it.
It wasn't that the Giants slashed payroll so much as they've held steady and let the other teams pass them.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
There was a drop in 2008.
Giants
2009: $ 82,616,450 (13)
2008: $ 76,594,500 (17)
2007: $ 90,219,056 (12)
2006: $ 90,056,419 (10)
2005: $ 90,199,500 (7)
2004: $ 81,515,834 (10)
2003: $ 86,959,167 (9)
2002: $ 80,282,668 (10)
2001: $ 74,720,833 (16)
2000: $ 59,200,000 (17)
But to your point, the Giants in 2005 were ranked between the Cardinals and Mariners and both of those teams have crossed the $100m payroll since (I’m rounding up for the Cards in ’08).
Cardinals
2009: $ 88,528,409
2008: $ 99,624,449
2007: $ 90,286,823
2006: $ 88,891,371
2005: $ 92,106,833
Mariners
2009: $ 98,904,166
2008: $117,666,482
2007: $106,460,833
2006: $ 87,959,833
2005: $ 87,754,334
If you can get 3:2 on a headline of "Giants Pitcher Assaults General Manager" at some point this year, take it.
I am not sure the Mariners are a good comparison in this case. They had an ownership with some vastly deep pockets. Just unless the last season or two they have had front office that would routinely lose a game of wits to either Curly or Shep of the 3 Stooges.
Who’s brain did you bring me?
Brain SabeanOranother.
On the surface I am ok with this, however it underlies a deeper problem I have with Sabean. It’s fine if you are not going to get into a bidding war, but please, make an attempt to sign the best free agents in the offseason. Do not just write them off as not wanting to come here.
Sabean has got away with this for a few seasons, then was rewarded for it with an extension. I do not want stupid signings, but please, try. Do not come out before the negotiations for free agents start and say “We’re Out!”
"Being a McCoven is like being a member of the Green party. It’s powerlessness is part of the appeal." - oldjacket
Different take
Every year since 2002 when Magowan went all Nixon, some variation of this is put out .
If it’s the former, though, Holliday and Bay are huge risks, and I can’t fault the Giants for not wanting to take on the commitments.
And every year, enough people pour through the turnstiles and enough pooled money comes back to the owners, so the Giants front office and media spin machine, continue to massage the idea that San Francisco is really a small market team with way too many expenses and too much overhead to spend serious money.
Which is true. They don’t have the money to increase payroll. Not when they use all of those millions to leverage partner equity in real estate and hard assets, rather than try and win a championship; going so far as to spread the canard that “its the ballpark that hitters don’t want to come to.” Which was invoked 4 seconds after Bonds last at bat.
Obviously when you openly target “second tier free agents” and scorn your own stadium in public, it is as obvious as the sun rising in the morning that your intentions are to not compete for a championship, but rather to play mathematically meaningful games in September while the guys you are competing against are trying to play meaningful games in October and November.
And next year folks will be saying and writing similar and the same in the season after that, and after that, and pretty soon, people won’t be able to tell the Royals from the Cubs from the Giants. That’s what the Sabean and Bochy extensions really mean.
This guy had a perfect take on things about a month ago.
He writes some really off the wall shit. So he has that going against him. Which is nice.
by E Ticket on Nov 20, 2009 6:01 PM PST reply actions
I knew this post was E-bait. You fell into my trap.
by Grant Brisbee on Nov 20, 2009 6:05 PM PST up reply actions
but he is incredibly humble
Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."
Nobody puts Bengie in a corner!
by natteringnabob on Nov 20, 2009 6:05 PM PST up reply actions
How many times? Is it like only once? What kind of timeframe are we talking?
Utter frustration and futility.
by Johnny Disaster on Nov 20, 2009 6:16 PM PST reply actions
If the Giants are really going to pursue a slugger next year and not this year, I’m ok with this. If it is more of just not spending money, then I think it sucks. They could have not signed F. Sanchez and then not sign Penny, Uribe, and Molina and they’d have enough to pay for Holliday or Bay.
It does seem like the Giants window to win a world series is at its largest when Buster Posey and Bumgartner are effective members of the roster and that is still like two years away. Unless something horrible happens, Lincecum and Cain will still be all stars and the Giants will just have to pay for some sluggers. If it isn’t going to be next year, I’m ok with that as long as it isn’t a permanent philosophy. I guess it would be better somehow if Zito wasn’t taking up 18 million a year. I guess that ends in three more years. Maybe all that money goes to Lincecum now though.
It doesn’t seem like it should be that hard to get one guy that can hit 30 homeruns a year though. With the Giants, it’s like sitting around and waiting for a solar eclipse.
From Schulman:
As I mentioned yesterday, Sabean said he might look more toward “second-tier” free agents who want to come to San Francisco. One to keep an eye on closely is first baseman Nick Johnson, who has a long injury history but played in 133 games for Florida and Washington in 2009. Manager Bruce Bochy loves him, and Johnson fits another desired criteria with an on-base percentage of .426. The guy walked 99 times last year. He also hails from Sacramento.
Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/giants/detail?blogid=22&entry_id=52128#ixzz0XSl6g9Pt
YOU EAT YOUR DAMN EGGROLL
This will make a lot of people happy. Man, why do I haven an irrational love of Travis Ishikawa though?
We're all basically Pedro Feliz.
this will also make a lot of people happy
Although nothing is official, I’m hearing that the Giants might hire 1997 stretch-drive hero Brian Johnson to be a scout.
YOU EAT YOUR DAMN EGGROLL
Who would be happy to see this?
Certainly no one who wants the team to hire on merit. But maybe there are some fans of the spoils system still hanging around.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
How Do You Know He Doesn't Merit This Hire?
It always has been and always will be true that who you know is just as important (and sometimes more) then what you know. That siad, this hire could be both a merit hire and a loyalty hire.
by giantsrainman on Nov 20, 2009 11:51 PM PST up reply actions
Merit is such an Anglo-Saxon concept. Patronage is much more civilized.
... null, void, invalid, iniquitous, unjust, damnable, reprobate, inane, empty of meaning and effect for all time
by shanghaijim on Nov 20, 2009 11:54 PM PST up reply actions
Not true.
I’d expect a man named “shanghaijim” to know that the Chinese invented merit-based civil service.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
At least we know Bochy will play Johnson.
I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
Mr. F! | comics | art | New Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory
YEAH!!!!! YEAH YEAH YEAH YEAH
OMFG AND BOCHY EVEN LOVES HIM GIT R DUUUUUUUUUN SABEZ
Extremely proud adoptive parent of Paul E. Stanley, deserved all-star and hacker extraordinaire
Thanks to roger
I've never been happier to have Crabs
Different aromas for different neighborhoods … asphalt and steam vents … live fish and dried animal parts … seaweed and taffy … patchouli and weed … more patchouli and weed … Obsession and weed … AXE and weed … Astroglide and outrage … all united by fog and cypress and crazy bum. I love the City.
... null, void, invalid, iniquitous, unjust, damnable, reprobate, inane, empty of meaning and effect for all time
by shanghaijim on Nov 20, 2009 11:50 PM PST up reply actions
Kinda, sure.
New York and Boston are bastions of stench, however. I almost choked on my own vomit the first time I rode the subway in Boston. .
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
Oh man, the T is gross. I’m pretty sure the Orange Line has the highest SNDHP (sitting next to dead hooker probability) in the country.
Joe Martinez: You are cool.
When it's all said and done, America will be remembered for three things: The Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
This, I don't get...
I think Sabean’s a little cheektender from when he pursued Gary Matthews, Juan Pierre, Alfonso Soriano, and Carlos Lee, offered them tons of cash, and watched them use the Giants’ offer as leverage.
I can see how Sabean would be upset that he offered those guys lots of money and they turned around and went elsewhere, but all in all, isn’t it a BETTER thing that they used the Giants as leverage, because it probably forced the other teams to pay them more than they otherwise may have? If the point is not for us to sign a great free agent, then it could at least be to try and get another team to have to OVERpay that free agent.
I would hope that Sabean would make a fair offer to Holliday, just to get on the radar. If he turns it down and gets big bucks elsewhere, what have you lost?
by The Double Deuce on Nov 21, 2009 2:54 AM PST reply actions
I think Sabean’s probably more upset about last offseason’s Teixeira and Sabathia rumors, which were utterly baseless, because they spread unrealistic expectations among the fan base. I don’t think he really cares if players are using the Giants to jack up offers (though it wouldn’t surprise me if Selig cares ad communicated it to the Giants).
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
lol
Extremely proud adoptive parent of Paul E. Stanley, deserved all-star and hacker extraordinaire
Thanks to roger
I've never been happier to have Crabs
by bondslegend on Nov 21, 2009 10:19 AM PST up reply actions
lulz
Joe Martinez: You are cool.
When it's all said and done, America will be remembered for three things: The Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
About Carlos Lee...
Before anyone calls the Carlos Lee signing a bad one for Houston, consider his last three seasons with the Astros (the first three of his 6 year deal)…
2007: 32 HR, 119 RBI, .303 AVG. in 162 games
2008: 28 HR, 100 RBI, .314 AVG. in 115(!) games
2009: 26 HR, 102 RBI, .300 AVG. in 160 games
Oh yeah, his high for strikeouts in those seasons is…63.
For his career so far, Carlos Lee has 300+ HR , 1100+ RBI, and a .291 AVG.
And he is just 33.
Will he win a Gold Glove in LF? Not likely. But I am sure the Giants would be happy to find an LF who could put up those numbers.
The story I heard 3 years ago is that the Giants offered Mr. Lee a contract for 6 years at $105 million. Lee declined, and signed for 6 years at $100 million to play in Houston.
Considering Lee’s production the past three years, whether you like him or hate him, Mr. Sabean knew what he was doing when he went after Carlos Lee.
You're right, he's a good hitter, but
Mr. Sabean knew what he was doing when he went after Carlos Lee
Brain also knew what he was doing when he invested that money in Rowand, and Renteria, and Dave Roberts… given the percentages it’s more likely he was hopped up on goofballs and emailed Lee’s agent by accident thinking he was signing Leron Lee.
I’m sure the brass will be right in there in 2012 when he’s on the market again… probably with the same 6 year deal for his agent.
Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."
Nobody puts Bengie in a corner!
by natteringnabob on Nov 22, 2009 6:36 AM PST up reply actions
Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."
Nobody puts Bengie in a corner!
by natteringnabob on Nov 22, 2009 7:48 AM PST up reply actions 2 recs
strikeouts? who cares?
the first three years of the Lee deal went well (well, sort of – he was down to a sub 120 OPS+ this year) but I don’t think the last three will look so good.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
LOL using HR RBI and AVG to evaluate hitting
and strikeouts. You can tell you’re a fantasy baseball player.
Extremely proud adoptive parent of Paul E. Stanley, deserved all-star and hacker extraordinaire
Thanks to roger
I've never been happier to have Crabs
I SEE A TREND!
According to linear regression Lee is do for a ~.300/ 23 HR/96 RBI YEAR! OHNOEZ!
say hey nation is the Ralph Nader of McC.-Xanthan
by say hey nation on Nov 23, 2009 9:59 AM PST up reply actions
Didn't everyone die at the end of Reservoir Dogs?
Not that “bondslegend” is a more propitious name.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
Caincecum Ringless
I guess I sort of agree that if the Giants are a $100M team that Bay and/or Holliday are risks… But I think it’s a bigger risk of a potential World Series ring to not bring some kind of help to one of the worst offenses I have ever seen while we have epic arms in the rotation and bullpen. If we don’t take low level risks on the two best free agents in the class when there is no offense peaking from the soil of our farm (unless you count a certain murder suspect) are Cain and Lincecum going to get World Series rings in pinstripes or some sort of evil cerulean tint?
Brian Sabean is akin to a treatable form of cancer... just get rid of it before it kills you
Agree W/Geddy Lee Philosophy For Women, But Not For Baseball
If you opt to put all your eggs in one basket and go for Charlize, you might end up pretty lonely. Plus, even if you get lucky that one time, what about all the other nights. (Okay, Geddy Lee is pretty bad looking for a woman, so I think it really comes down to average women vs. super models, and in that case I say quantity.)
Now baseball is different as there are only eight regulars in the line-up each night, and plus you should be able to put a Fred Lewis or a Travis Ishikawa in some spots to get close to league average and then go for a Charlize somewhere else – say a guy like Carlos Beltran a few years back. What is amazing in reviewing these posts is seeing how the Giants have had good sized payrolls over the past many years and still been really bad. How is Sabean still here? Shouldn’t we have rebuilt and been at $60mm or $70mm, then used the saved money for years like now where we can have a real shot if we spend over $100mm – sort of a less extreme version of the Marlins.
it depends on your goal
if your goal is “sleep with a supermodel” (i.e, win a championship) than any number of Geddina Lee’s is not going to progress you to that goal.
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
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PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game currently in early planning stages.
Seriously, what do people have to do on a Sunday night? They can’t get on the forum? THIS IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN YOUR FAMILY PEOPLE! :)
Look at the time of your post.
It may be more important than my family, but it’s not more important than my Family Guy.
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-1
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
Mr. and Mrs. Merope went to the Raiders-Bengals game. I’m sure both went to sleep early because I’m sure Mr. Merope got some flack for being a Bengals fan at a Raiders game.
"All I know is right now, you comeback and do you dwell on that? I think you're man enough to take it, you're man enough to chew on it, to spit it out and you learn from it. ... I think winners let it go. I think losers dwell on it and talk about it all week and that screws you up for the next opportunity going forward." - Mike Singletary after the 49ers loss to the Vikings
There were a lot of Bengals fans there, especially where we were sitting. They were very loud and boisterous… well until the last oooooh 2 minutes of the game. Then they got real quiet.
“And that,” I told them, “is why they used to call this place the ‘House of Miracles’”
It was rather funny though… there was a dad and his youngish son sitting in front of some Bengal fans, and the kid was clearly upset that the Raiders weren’t all that. The Bengal fans were trying to console the kid, telling him about Akili Smith and all the bad moves the Bungles had made in the past… those same people were almost in tears about 10 minutes later when they lost the game.
Bay and Holliday
Bay and Holliday won’t help much more than the 2nd tier players and they would cost you a lot. If you went for the Nick Johnson, Cameron, Penny, they would help you with out breaking the bank.
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