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He’s not an idiot. Carpenter has a legit case to be the winner. Had he voted for Wainwright, THEN he would be an idiot.

by Hobbes2d on Nov 19, 2009 1:23 AM PST reply actions  

I did not punish Lincecum for winning only 15 games, for I know all about the offense behind him. Plus, we all know wins can be affected by run support and bullpen performance. I will admit that Carpenter’s 17-4 record jumped off the page when I began my cramming. Lincecum was 15-7.

My first thought was that Carpenter must have enjoyed superior run support. Thus, I was stunned to see that their average support per nine innings virtually was identical. Carpenter’s was 5.84, Lincecum’s 5.83. In comparison, Cardinals hitters went ape crazy when Wainwright pitched. His average was 7.07.

does he really not see the fallacy in believing that means anything?

by kingofthacove on Nov 19, 2009 4:03 AM PST reply actions  

Lincecum had over 100 more K’s than Carpenter. To dismiss that stat because Carpenter “is not that kind of pitcher,” is flat out wrong. By that logic, why not vote for Noah Lowry for Cy Young? After all, you can’t penalize him for being hurt, he’s “not that kind of pitcher” who stays healthy.

No Edgar, it's not your fault, it's the fault of the idiot that plays you

by rxmeister on Nov 19, 2009 4:42 AM PST reply actions  

I submit that my pitcher of ice tea is superior to Carpenter. It gave up fewer earned runs. The fact that Carpenter struck out more batters is irrelevant because my pitcher of ice tea isn’t the sort of pitcher that strikes out batters.

"El once, chico. Eleven."

by Juan Primo on Nov 19, 2009 5:20 AM PST up reply actions  

All you need now is some PIE!

Officially disinterested in any outfielders from the state of Mississippi.

by Lyle on Nov 19, 2009 10:17 AM PST up reply actions  

Carpenter has fewer Ks/9, but still a respectable rate and has had a very productive season. The fact is that keeping batters from becoming baserunners is the pitcher’s job and both players did that very well. Both pitchers allowed about a baserunner an inning – why penalize someone for the manner in which he got his outs?

I say this as someone who is not really invested in post-season awards… it would be nice if Timmy won, but it would not be a raging injustice if Carpenter got the nod.

Utter frustration and futility.

by Johnny Disaster on Nov 19, 2009 9:51 AM PST up reply actions  

I rec this analysis. By the numbers:

If you believe in Ks and fielding-independent stats, Timmy should win. But it is a close race in the sense that you can make an argument for any of the top 3 and Hank’s thought process and how he voted is probably what you’d expect from most baseball writers.

If you can get 3:2 on a headline of "Giants Pitcher Assaults General Manager" at some point this year, take it.

by esseffgeez on Nov 19, 2009 4:56 AM PST reply actions  

I always have strived not to fall into the homer trap. Although I have voted for my share of Giants, these awards, particularly Cy Young and Most Valuable Player, are remembered for the ages. I think them too important to vote blithely without proper care and analysis.

And this self righteous attitude is why I hate the BBWAA. Yet, I still get riled up when a Giant wins or loses.

say hey nation is the Ralph Nader of McC.-Xanthan

by say hey nation on Nov 19, 2009 6:38 AM PST reply actions  

I give Schulman a lot of credit for admitting it in advance knowing full well Giants fans are going to shit all over him for it. I think you guys are being way too harsh. This isn’t Terry Pendleton over Bonds.

by KCE on Nov 19, 2009 7:07 AM PST reply actions   1 recs

True, but Carp missed over ONE WHOLE month of the season…

say hey nation is the Ralph Nader of McC.-Xanthan

by say hey nation on Nov 19, 2009 7:16 AM PST up reply actions  

And made a whopping 4 less starts. It’s not as if he was out until the All Star Break.

by KCE on Nov 19, 2009 7:39 AM PST up reply actions  

Thats 10+% of his starts

say hey nation is the Ralph Nader of McC.-Xanthan

by say hey nation on Nov 19, 2009 7:50 AM PST up reply actions  

Lets compare the 1st 28 games of each player to "control" for stamina

Chris Carpenter Pitching Gamelogs for Career Games 251 to 278
GS CG Rslt Dec IP H R ER BB SO HR HBP ERA BA
28 0 18-10 W-L:17-4 192.2 156 49 48 38 144 7 7 2.24 .226

Lincecum
GS CG Rslt Dec IP H R ER BB SO HR HBP ERA BA
28 4 17-11 W-L:13-5 200.1 150 59 52 55 233 9 5 2.34 .207

say hey nation is the Ralph Nader of McC.-Xanthan

by say hey nation on Nov 19, 2009 8:18 AM PST up reply actions  

BTW, this is more or less a BBWAA analysis and justification. I wouldn’t use all of these stats to justify the award on my own. I think the most glaring difference is the team w/l vs the pitcher w/l

say hey nation is the Ralph Nader of McC.-Xanthan

by say hey nation on Nov 19, 2009 8:23 AM PST up reply actions  

That’s why I wouldn’t vote for him. I can’t in good faith give my vote to someone who missed more than two starts like that.

Supporting San Francisco Dugout since 2005 and Manny Burriss since 2006. Bringing you all your California League and New York-Penn League needs since 2009.

by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Nov 21, 2009 10:01 AM PST up reply actions  

Honestly, I can’t get too upset over this. Schulman’s knowledge of statistics is behind the curve, can’t deny that. But the dude’s trying. He’s beginning to understand the problems with W-L (which, unfortunately, is a pretty big problem with the BBWAA), and he does try to dig deeper to find out why the records turned out the way they did. He checked out the run support, and while average run support has it’s issues, it is still pretty good information. I think he makes a decent case for Carpenter, pitching as well down the stretch as Carpenter did is something worth noting. He’s also right that strikeouts are important but not all telling. Inducing ground balls is an effective strategy, and Carpenter does do it well. I would vote Lincecum but it’s not a tradgedy if Carpenter wins. The difference in how they pitched isn’t that big.

I guess my biggest issue with his article is he kind of downplays the innings pitched thing which is a pretty big and important difference. 32 innings is half a season of ace relief work, so it’s like Lincecum equaled Carpenter + half a season of being an awesome reliever.

Overall…I just don’t think it’s necessary to butcher Schulman over this one. He’s trying. He has some legitimate points. It’s not a huge mistake. Pick your battles, if you try to burn down the house anytime a sportswriter makes a tiny mistake, it’s going to make “stat nerds” look vengeful, idiotic, and like they’re more concerned with bringing down the system than having a reasonable discussion…

by Missing Barry on Nov 19, 2009 7:21 AM PST reply actions   1 recs

+1

A Damn Fine post.

Who’s brain did you bring me?
Brain SabeanOranother.

by daveinexile on Nov 19, 2009 8:59 AM PST up reply actions  

thank you

Supporting San Francisco Dugout since 2005 and Manny Burriss since 2006. Bringing you all your California League and New York-Penn League needs since 2009.

by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Nov 21, 2009 10:03 AM PST up reply actions  

Your own beat writer not voting for you when you are equal to or better than the guy he voted for is fucking lame.

by WTF on Nov 19, 2009 7:42 AM PST reply actions  

I have already resigned myself to the fact that Lincecum will not win the Cy this year.

I thought the fact Hank stated that he knew wins were a bogus stat and then said “Oooh! Second half wins!!” was pretty funny.

WHY IS BOCOCK?!

by Lars The Wanderer on Nov 19, 2009 7:43 AM PST reply actions  

Also, it was pretty clear last year that Lincecum really wanted the Cy so I was happy when he won. This year, Tim seems more accepting of that fact that he probably won’t win it. He even said that he would pick Carpenter.

WHY IS BOCOCK?!

by Lars The Wanderer on Nov 19, 2009 7:45 AM PST up reply actions  

That what kinda got me riled up. This is a generic “I didn’t vote for him for the right reasons” post that he can’t even keep straight. He outed himself.

say hey nation is the Ralph Nader of McC.-Xanthan

by say hey nation on Nov 19, 2009 8:53 AM PST up reply actions  

I agree with Schulman.

Officially disinterested in any outfielders from the state of Mississippi.

by Lyle on Nov 19, 2009 7:49 AM PST reply actions  

Hey, hey, what about the AMOR part of your name?

Officially disinterested in any outfielders from the state of Mississippi.

by Lyle on Nov 20, 2009 6:49 AM PST up reply actions  

He just misspelled MOAR, as in MOAR BANS PLZ.

Context, people. More context is good. Less context is bad. If you're willing to be reductive, then you're willing to be wrong.

by howtheyscored on Nov 20, 2009 8:17 AM PST up reply actions  

How about...

JustinMoarnoVincitOmnia?

Officially disinterested in any outfielders from the state of Mississippi.

by Lyle on Nov 22, 2009 2:21 PM PST up reply actions  

I think a decent argument can be made for Lincecum or Carpenter and don’t have a problem with someone choosing either, so long as it’s for the right reasons. To be honest i’m not all that bothered this year given that Lincecum won it last year.

Proud parent of Waldis Joaquin!

by GiantFan on Nov 19, 2009 8:27 AM PST reply actions  

Schulman admitted he agonized over the decision, and as Hobbes2d said above, it’s not as if he picked Wainwright. I think Timmy had a slight edge over Carpenter, but if Carpenter wins, it’s not exactly a Thierry-Henry-handball-level travesty.

"Those that drink the Kool-Aid, please leave the room."

by Kitspool on Nov 19, 2009 8:40 AM PST reply actions  

Pitchfork!

... null, void, invalid, iniquitous, unjust, damnable, reprobate, inane, empty of meaning and effect for all time

by shanghaijim on Nov 19, 2009 8:48 AM PST reply actions  

Meh last night

Still meh today

Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all

McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.

GET THAT VORP AND WHIP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!

by baetown415 on Nov 19, 2009 9:53 AM PST reply actions  

Oh please. Advanced metrics have the top three pitchers incredibly close in value. There’s nothing wrong with Schulman’s vote, even if I disagree with it.

by Dan from NM on Nov 19, 2009 10:07 AM PST reply actions  

I’m cool with Carpenter.

Bruce Bochy would like you to look at the career numbers and stop complaining.
Bob Howry's #1 (and only) fan!!!
The Merkin Valdez of McCovey Chronicles!!!!!!

by cheno on Nov 19, 2009 10:13 AM PST reply actions  

TAKE THAT LYLE!

Context, people. More context is good. Less context is bad. If you're willing to be reductive, then you're willing to be wrong.

by howtheyscored on Nov 19, 2009 11:32 AM PST up reply actions  

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