So what is the right move?
by thel33whosnotazn on Nov 14, 2009 12:52 PM PST
244 comments
So I've been looking at all the recent fan "rosterbation" posts and of course a lot of them seem extremely unpopular (though I definitely agree that a lot of them would be stupid moves for the Giants to make). With that in mind, what IS the right move or set of moves for the Giants to make this offseason (besides potentially signing Nick Johnson)? Should the Giants make a trade (like Yahoo says the Giants are cosidering for Uggla), should they look for better offense from within, or are there certain free agents who actually would help the team? Unless something "drastic" is done, I don't know how much better the Giants will be this coming season. Thanks.
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The problem with Uggla is and this you guys agree is important isn that he is a horrible fielder
and Secon base is occupied by a good hitter already in Sanchez. Where would we play him
I still don’t see the problem though with trading for doumit and playing him at first base
There are no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq Chuck Norris lives in Texas
by Mike Fox on Nov 14, 2009 1:01 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
He’s not a very good hitter as a first baseman.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
by jponry on Nov 14, 2009 1:04 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I’d go a step further and say that he would be the absolute worst-hitting first baseman in the league. Not that whoever the Giants end up playing there doesn’t have a pretty good shot at it.
Barry Zito: Mike Hampton with a guitar
by JakeS on Nov 14, 2009 1:11 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I’m thinking it would be a very close race between Doumit and the Garko/Ishikawa platoon.
I’d bet that Garkawa wins out overall because of the defense.
It’s a good thing for him that he’s played at C and in the outfield as well.
You wish you were named Frederick Deshaun...
by dregarx on Nov 14, 2009 4:26 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Are we talking about Doumit or Uggla here
Fox’s post confuses me.
Give -peace- Ryan Garko a chance.
by GiantPain on Nov 14, 2009 1:19 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Doumit
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
by jponry on Nov 14, 2009 1:23 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
OK
That makes sense. No use trading for Doumit to be 1b.
Give -peace- Ryan Garko a chance.
by GiantPain on Nov 14, 2009 1:27 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
agreed, but
trading for him to back up Buster, platoon with Fred/Bowker/Velez in LF, and spell Ishi, Nick Johnson, or whoever at 1B would be just fine with me. If he hits close to the way he did in ’08 its not like it would be difficult to find a way to get him in the lineup every day.
Thing A
by sam23 on Nov 14, 2009 3:25 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
+1
You wish you were named Frederick Deshaun...
by dregarx on Nov 14, 2009 4:28 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
+2
He could be our Juan Uribe of 2010, but with more random utility positions.
The very bad man traded my son...So now I'd like you all to meet my new son, Ryan "Aaron" Garko...Dammit it's just not the same!
by boonitez on Nov 14, 2009 5:23 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
-1
Also, more expensive, and I’m not just talking about money.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
by Bhaakon on Nov 14, 2009 5:24 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I really don’t think the cost in prospects would be too high.
/watches as Sabes trades Neal for him straight up
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
by jponry on Nov 14, 2009 5:41 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Let’s say the asking price is Sosa and Kieschnick (and yes, I’m pulling this out of my ass here).
Would you do it?
You wish you were named Frederick Deshaun...
by dregarx on Nov 14, 2009 5:43 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
My problem with Doumit
Is that the Giants have Posey at catcher, and he’s not consistently a good enough hitter for me to be happy with him at 1B or LF. Move him out from behind the plate, and I think he becomes Garko.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
by Bhaakon on Nov 14, 2009 5:51 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Fair enough.
I have now been turned toward your way of thinking.
You wish you were named Frederick Deshaun...
by dregarx on Nov 14, 2009 5:53 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
+1
but with a helath issue.
Who’s brain did you bring me?
Brain SabeanOranother.
by daveinexile on Nov 14, 2009 9:07 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Probably not
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
by jponry on Nov 14, 2009 6:02 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
no, I don't think so
I was hoping the asking price would be lower than that, but I’m probably too optimistic.
Thing A
by sam23 on Nov 15, 2009 1:02 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
NO
say hey nation is the Ralph Nader of McC.-Xanthan
by say hey nation on Nov 16, 2009 9:40 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
You want a good move?
Sign johnson, then deal garko, ishikawa, fred lewis, and brandon medders for Chad Billingsley.
"Lisa, Vampires are make-believe, like elves, gremlins, and eskimos." - Homer Simpson
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by Ramah71 on Nov 14, 2009 4:32 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Why stop there, let’s get Kemp thrown in too.
Barry Zito: Mike Hampton with a guitar
by JakeS on Nov 14, 2009 4:43 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Have you heard of a guy named James Loney?
You wish you were named Frederick Deshaun...
by dregarx on Nov 14, 2009 4:43 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
the Dodgers must be salivating to get a package like that for Chad Billingsley!!
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
by jponry on Nov 14, 2009 4:44 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Billingsly thankefully, is a bit off. It’ll be interesting to see how he does next year.
Matt Cain: throwing complete game shutouts since 06'. No big deal.
by cain1rstballothof on Nov 14, 2009 5:19 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
The Dodgers would so do that.
The very bad man traded my son...So now I'd like you all to meet my new son, Ryan "Aaron" Garko...Dammit it's just not the same!
by boonitez on Nov 14, 2009 5:26 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
So what if they only have half a rotation with Billingsley? They’re getting FOUR prospects! I bet if we threw in Frandsen and Downs we could get HanRam instead.
by quincy0191 on Nov 14, 2009 8:01 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Probably the opposite of whatever Sabean ends up doing.
by InTimmyWeTrust on Nov 14, 2009 1:05 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Seriously? Very little. The team overplayed a bit last year and it would be a mistake to read to much into that and make a bunch of win-now moves. Sabean has actually done a decent job of stocking up the minor leagues with talent lately, if we risk taking a few lumps this season we’ll still be set up to be contenders in 2011 and beyond. If there are moves that make the team better in the short term without blocking young players then no harm done, but signing Jermaine Dye or making another Alderson-Sanchez type deal would be stupid, and is certainly what will happen.
Barry Zito: Mike Hampton with a guitar
by JakeS on Nov 14, 2009 1:07 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
If I had to guess, I’d say we sign Dye for two years or a year and an option, and either trade two or three of the non-Bumgarner/Posey/Sanchez crowd for Dan Uggla or trade Sanchez for a better player or a package including Uggla, and sign a worse player than Buster Posey to get 300-400 of the PAs at catcher. I’d say we finish 2nd or 3rd 6-10 games out of the wild card with that team.
Barry Zito: Mike Hampton with a guitar
by JakeS on Nov 14, 2009 1:20 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Signing Dye Would Be About as Far Away From Being The Right Move As We Could Get.
His defense is just that bad. It almost completely nuturalizes his offense making him just marginally better then replacement level and all of this is before we take into account any further decline due to aging.
by giantsrainman on Nov 14, 2009 2:25 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
So you're saying
Signing Dye would be the Left move.
I agree!
I have finally accepted the fact that I will never win a McCoven award.
by The Thrill on Nov 14, 2009 3:06 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I don’t think JakeS was talking about the moves he wants to make.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
by jponry on Nov 14, 2009 3:25 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Signing Dye Would Be About as Far Away From Being The Right Move As We Could Get.
Oh my god! GRM forgot to capitalize the A in “as”!
by 55 on Nov 14, 2009 6:36 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I think the right moves would be to sign a few guys like Cameron and Johnson to short term deals. They’ll be obvious upgrades in 2010 and they won’t cost us anything in the long-term (as in 5 year deals or prospects).
Also do not play Eugenio Velez every day.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
by jponry on Nov 14, 2009 1:25 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Mike Cameron has always been one of my favorite players, so I guess I wouldn’t be too broken up, but can’t I at least fantasize that Nate Schierholtz and Fred Lewis actually get playing time?
Barry Zito: Mike Hampton with a guitar
by JakeS on Nov 14, 2009 1:26 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
And, yeah, don’t play Eugenio Velez any day. I’ll be he gets way more ABs than Nate or Freddie though.
Barry Zito: Mike Hampton with a guitar
by JakeS on Nov 14, 2009 1:27 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I’ll bet he gets more ABs than Nate and Fred combined.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
by jponry on Nov 14, 2009 1:29 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I hate that you’re right.
Joe Martinez: You are cool.
When it's all said and done, America will be remembered for three things: The Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
by cornball on Nov 15, 2009 1:26 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
also
in a perfect world, we’d dump Rowand somewhere and fill up LF and RF with Bowker/Lewis/Schierholtz/Torres and see what happens. (With, in a perfect world, Neal forcing his way up by July or August!)
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
by jponry on Nov 14, 2009 2:11 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Darn you for this list of OF preference. Now it looks like I stole your list.
"It's too late now."
by ResDog on Nov 14, 2009 2:17 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Dump Rowand? No. Addition by subtraction doesn’t work. Smarter people than us have tried that.
by quincy0191 on Nov 14, 2009 2:52 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Dump Rowand? Those words are in the wrong order.
Context, people. More context is good. Less context is bad. If you're willing to be reductive, then you're willing to be wrong.
by howtheyscored on Nov 14, 2009 3:25 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Not succinct enough.
You wish you were named Frederick Deshaun...
by dregarx on Nov 14, 2009 4:30 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
or dump Rowand and fill up LF with Bowker/Lewis and CF with Schierholtz/Torres.
Thing A
by sam23 on Nov 14, 2009 3:27 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
What’s wrong with Bowker in LF, Torres in CF, and Nate in RF?
Officially disinterested in any outfielders from the state of Mississippi.
by Lyle on Nov 17, 2009 3:38 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Nate’s not good.
Bruce Bochy would like you to look at the career numbers and stop complaining.
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by cheno on Nov 14, 2009 2:24 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
As a CF he’s good. As a LF/RF not so much. If he can learn to hit or lay off that inside breaking ball then he’d be good.
by quincy0191 on Nov 14, 2009 2:53 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
300 major-league AB does not a career make.
Barry Zito: Mike Hampton with a guitar
by JakeS on Nov 14, 2009 4:04 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
that’s kinda what I figure is the right sort of thing to do
by thel33whosnotazn on Nov 14, 2009 2:06 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
This.
Also, make them 1-year deals.
You wish you were named Frederick Deshaun...
by dregarx on Nov 14, 2009 4:29 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I have a hard time seeing how the 2011 team is any better positioned than the 2010 team. The pitching core of Lincecum/Cain/Sanchez/Wilson is young, but it’s still unlikely that they’ll be better as a group in 2011 than they were in 2009, and they’re going to be a lot more expensive. Posey and Bumgarner will be a year older, but then so will Rowand and Zito and Sanchez. If Schierholtz and Bowker and Ishikawa and Velez are ever going to learn how to hit, it’s going to have to be in 2010, because they’re not going to get another shot after that if they don’t. Thomas Neal and one or two of the fringy Noonan/Crawford/Gillaspie/Kieschnick group may be ready, but it takes a wild leap of faith to imagine any of them being major contributors with just a year’s more seasoning.
Absent great good fortune or some very shrewd maneuvering from Sabean, I suspect that this time next year we’ll be in the same spot we’re in now, but with our young stars a year closer to free agency.
by Evan on Nov 15, 2009 11:00 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I fear it will be worse. I fear most of anything young and promising near the MLB level will be gone in another trade or two that brings back a couple more painted rocks. It is the Sabean way.
Who’s brain did you bring me?
Brain SabeanOranother.
by daveinexile on Nov 15, 2009 12:03 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
.02$
Trade for Uggla, and sign an outfielder. Preferably an impact OF like Bay, Holliday, or Figgins, but even a moderate upgrade like Cameron or someone along those lines couldn’t hurt.
I think the right move is to make 2 upgrades, one in the IF and one in the OF. With two new good hitters, plus a full year of Franch (as opposed to black hole of bleh), I think this team can go places.
Give -peace- Ryan Garko a chance.
by GiantPain on Nov 14, 2009 1:11 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
There is only one impact OF in the free agent class, and that’s Holliday.
Cameron is just as good as Bay if not better, and Figgins is not a good bet for the long contract he will command, so they are all on the same level, with Cameron to be preferred because he will not get as much in money or years as the other two will.
You wish you were named Frederick Deshaun...
by dregarx on Nov 14, 2009 4:33 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Cameron is not better than bay or just as good. I think Cameron is getting to bem really overated he is not the anser to our problems
There are no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq Chuck Norris lives in Texas
by Mike Fox on Nov 14, 2009 5:12 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
You're missing the point.
It’s not that Cameron is the answer to the Giants’ problems or a superstar performer (though he’s quite good), it’s that Bay isn’t either, and he’s much more expensive.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
by Bhaakon on Nov 14, 2009 5:27 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
+1
I’ll add neither player is “The Answer” Cameron helps in more skill areas than Bay would.
Who’s brain did you bring me?
Brain SabeanOranother.
by daveinexile on Nov 14, 2009 9:12 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Fangraphs. Look at it. Cameron is pretty good.
The very bad man traded my son...So now I'd like you all to meet my new son, Ryan "Aaron" Garko...Dammit it's just not the same!
by boonitez on Nov 14, 2009 5:30 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Eh, fangraphs is wrong on this one.
Jason Bay is better than Mike Cameron. There, I said it. I don’t care what WAR says. If money was no object, who would you rather have playing LF next year?
Give -peace- Ryan Garko a chance.
by GiantPain on Nov 14, 2009 9:26 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
So if Jason Bay and Mike Cameron both came to you wanting 4/60, you would sign….?
Give -peace- Ryan Garko a chance.
by GiantPain on Nov 14, 2009 9:47 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
That’s because you picked wrong.
But OK, lets say it was just for next year.
Both Jason Bay and Mike Cameron want 10 million dollars for a one year contract. You may only pick one. You must pick one.
And you say you would sign Cameron? Come on…
Give -peace- Ryan Garko a chance.
by GiantPain on Nov 14, 2009 9:51 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
That’s because you picked wrong.
You got me there.
Both Jason Bay and Mike Cameron want 10 million dollars for a one year contract. You may only pick one. You must pick one.
Mike Cameron.
by xanthan on Nov 14, 2009 9:56 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Fair enough
Give -peace- Ryan Garko a chance.
by GiantPain on Nov 14, 2009 9:57 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Though I wonder if you would find one GM in the league who would agree with you.
Give -peace- Ryan Garko a chance.
by GiantPain on Nov 14, 2009 9:58 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Totally agree with you.
Matt Cain: throwing complete game shutouts since 06'. No big deal.
by cain1rstballothof on Nov 14, 2009 10:00 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I bet I could find a few smart ones that agree with me. But, if we’re talking about Sabean, he would probably agree with you.
by xanthan on Nov 15, 2009 7:02 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Jason Bay’s a better pickup if the money’s the same; we need offensive and he’s better at that. WAR says Cameron=Bay, but UZR is by no means a reliable stat, and that’s where Cameron makes up the difference. Plus, Cameron’s a lot older than Bay.
But they money’s not the same, and so Cameron’s a better signing.
by quincy0191 on Nov 14, 2009 10:06 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I wouldn't be pissed if Cameron was signed.
But I’d be pissed if that was all we did this offseason. A Cameron signing should be accompanied by an Uggla trade or a NJ signing in order to provide the kind of offensive upgrade that Bay alone could bring.
Give -peace- Ryan Garko a chance.
by GiantPain on Nov 14, 2009 10:09 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Correct
And that is because neither Cameron nor Bay is The Answer. The problem with signing Bay is that his contract precludes the team from signing anyone else of any significance.
Joe Martinez: You are cool.
When it's all said and done, America will be remembered for three things: The Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
by cornball on Nov 15, 2009 1:28 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
UZR aside, wouldn’t it really be amazing if there were no difference between the two defensively?
Please hit better, Randy Winn.
by oldjacket on Nov 15, 2009 7:26 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Considering Cameron has had only 1 contract worth more the $8MM in a year perhaps you need to ask will Bay sign for underr $10MM?
Who’s brain did you bring me?
Brain SabeanOranother.
by daveinexile on Nov 14, 2009 9:50 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Holiday?
"Being a McCoven is like being a member of the Green party. It’s powerlessness is part of the appeal." - oldjacket
by scout6 on Nov 14, 2009 9:52 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Who is related to Holliday
"Being a McCoven is like being a member of the Green party. It’s powerlessness is part of the appeal." - oldjacket
by scout6 on Nov 14, 2009 9:52 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Evidence to why Bay is better than Cameron?
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
GET THAT VORP AND WHIP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!
by baetown415 on Nov 14, 2009 10:55 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
If we assume that that Rowand will stay a CF, that is, that Cameron OR Bay would play LF, I present my logic:
1) Bay is a much much much better hitter than Cameron
2) LF defense is overvalued. Bay may not have a huge range, but he made 0 errors in 09. I know, I know, errors are a terrible stat. But Bay is at least competent, to the extent that he can get to a ball.
Give -peace- Ryan Garko a chance.
by GiantPain on Nov 14, 2009 11:01 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
If money or contractual years are not an issue, at all, do we even need to debate it? Really?
Matt Cain: throwing complete game shutouts since 06'. No big deal.
by cain1rstballothof on Nov 14, 2009 11:05 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Eh
It’s a legitimate debate, I guess. WAR does say Cameron was better last year. It seems to me that it’s wrong in this situation.
Give -peace- Ryan Garko a chance.
by GiantPain on Nov 14, 2009 11:06 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
why is that? They’re actually very similar hitters (though Bay is better), and Cameron’s a quality CF.
Perhaps you don’t appreciate how hard it is to find a CF who doesn’t hit like Coco Crisp.
Please hit better, Randy Winn.
by oldjacket on Nov 15, 2009 7:35 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
It is debatable
And by that I mean one can have an argument about it, that’s how close it is.
I don’t know because I don’t want to divorce cost considerations from the debate, seeing as they are so critical to the formation of a team that’s better than the ones your opponents are building.
You wish you were named Frederick Deshaun...
by dregarx on Nov 14, 2009 11:07 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
1) Correct, Bay is probably in the neighborhood of 25 runs better than Cameron with the bat. But offense is just part of the way a position player can contribute to (or take away from) their team.
2) I don’t get how you think left field defense is overvalued. True, left fielders tend to get fewer balls in play hit their way than any other position (aside from first base), but a significant number of balls still get hit to left field. Worse yet, many of those balls that don’t get caught get turned into extra base hits.
Furthermore, you contradict yourself in the second part of the argument. How does Jason Bay not have a huge range but can still get to a ball? He gets to fewer balls than an average left fielder (who by and large isn’t a good fielder compared to right fielders and especially to centerfielders).
1 year for $10mil in 2010, I’m not 100% sure that I’d take Cameron, since he’s a little old (though he doesn’t really show signs of slowing down, and Bay’s footspeed since his 2007 knee issues isn’t really endearing to me). But really, it’s silly to suggest that there’s a large difference between their cumulative values.
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
GET THAT VORP AND WHIP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!
by baetown415 on Nov 14, 2009 11:15 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I didn’t contradict myself. I said he doesn’t have a huge range. I also said that he doesn’t make many mistakes with the balls that are in his range. Those are not mutually exclusive.
I think that if Mike Cameron was worth what you’re asserting he’s worth, that is to say, as much as Jason Bay for next season, he would be a bigger deal. But he’s not.
There’s a reason that LF is traditionally the stompin’ grounds of the defensively challenged. LF defense just isn’t as important as other OF positions. If you have a choice between a player who gets more of his value from offense and one who gets more of his value from defense to play LF, go with the offense.
Give -peace- Ryan Garko a chance.
by GiantPain on Nov 14, 2009 11:23 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Ah, your diction in the last sentence was a little tricky. I see now.
Yet you’ve still failed to provide anything really substantive to support your argument. All I see are opinions and assumptions.
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
GET THAT VORP AND WHIP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!
by baetown415 on Nov 14, 2009 11:43 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Fair point
I’m not a master statistician.
I wouldn’t know where to find this info (and believe me, I tried), but it would be interesting to get the average UZR of all LF’s in the league last year. My hunch is that it would be a negative number. It would be better to compare someone like Bay to league average LF UZR rather than basing it off the assumption that anyone under 0 in UZR is a bad defenseman.
Did any of that make sense? I’m on the east coast, it’s pretty fuckin’ late here.
Give -peace- Ryan Garko a chance.
by GiantPain on Nov 14, 2009 11:58 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Ah, fuck me
Went to fangraphs and did the calculations on LF UZR. Turns out the average LF UZR was basically 0. So I’m back to square one: an unprovable assertion that LF defense doesn’t matter that much, and the Jason Bay’s errorless 09 proves that he is at least competent in LF.
That, combined with his superior hitting, younger age and proven durability, is why Jason Bay is better than Mike Cameron, WAR be damned.
Yeah, I’m really out of it right now. It’s really late. I’ll wake up in the morning and see your well-reasoned, statistically backed rebuttal.
Give -peace- Ryan Garko a chance.
by GiantPain on Nov 15, 2009 12:09 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Well, in terms of durability, Bay and Cameron are about the same. Cameron’s suspension during the first part of 2008 is probably the only reason why he wasn’t around 600 PA’s for that year.
Superior hitting and younger age are definitely in favor of Bay. It’s just the little issue of defense. Put it to you this way:
Tim Lincecum faced around 675 batters in 2009. He struck out around 260 of them. That means he relied on 415 outs to be converted by the fielders behind him. A bunch of these outs were routine, but even dominant pitchers heavily rely on their fielders. As I explained above, even though left fielders don’t get as many chances in the field as most others, throwing poor fielders out there will hurt you.
In terms of trying to show you why Jason Bay is not really an acceptable option for left field defensively, I’m going to give you the assessment of 78 Red Sox fans who agree that his hands are fine but his range and speed are not.
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
GET THAT VORP AND WHIP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!
by baetown415 on Nov 15, 2009 12:33 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Jason Bay is not a great left fielder
But he is good enough that his Bat makes him a really good player. I would be happy if the Giants signed him.
Give -peace- Ryan Garko a chance.
by GiantPain on Nov 15, 2009 1:01 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Also, for whatever it's worth
The UZR projections from BTB say that Bay is projected to be roughly a -10 UZR as opposed to this years roughly -14. Obviously, a projected improvement in defense. Combine that with his consistently fantastic offensive numbers.
Give -peace- Ryan Garko a chance.
by GiantPain on Nov 15, 2009 1:08 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I’m quite willing to buy that he’s closer to -10 than -14.
Bay is not a good defender, but I’m almost positive that the green monster messes with UZR.
Please hit better, Randy Winn.
by oldjacket on Nov 15, 2009 7:39 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Also
Those same projections have Cameron down from a 10 to a 4 UZR next year.
Give -peace- Ryan Garko a chance.
by GiantPain on Nov 15, 2009 10:08 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
yeah, but if you move him to Bay’s position he would be in the 12 to 14 range.
Remember, a guy who can play a quality CF is one of the 10 best defensive outfielders in the game.
Please hit better, Randy Winn.
by oldjacket on Nov 15, 2009 11:02 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
The part of their projection you conveniently left out?
The BTB UZR projection for Bay if he plays in SF: -94528%2jillion.
The very bad man traded my son...So now I'd like you all to meet my new son, Ryan "Aaron" Garko...Dammit it's just not the same!
by boonitez on Nov 15, 2009 11:15 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Really?
Does AT&T have a hard left field by reputation?
The Giants had the highest UZR in the majors from their left fielders:
http://www.fangraphs.com/teams.aspx?pos=lf&stats=fld&lg=all&type=0&season=2009&month=0
Was that just because we had such fantastic players, or maybe LF in AT&T isn’t that hard?
Give -peace- Ryan Garko a chance.
by GiantPain on Nov 16, 2009 9:05 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
(sarcasm; joke is that BtB’s power rankings hate the Giants)
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
GET THAT VORP AND WHIP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!
by baetown415 on Nov 16, 2009 9:42 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
UZR is set so that the average for each position is zero. It’s runs above/below average.
Please hit better, Randy Winn.
by oldjacket on Nov 15, 2009 7:42 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Aye
I learn something new every day.
Well, not “day”, but perhaps every morning at 4am when I’m having arguments about the relative benefits of outfielders.
Give -peace- Ryan Garko a chance.
by GiantPain on Nov 15, 2009 9:56 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Also, you can’t translate UZR from one position directly to another. There are positional adjustments. I’m pretty sure a UZR of 0 in CF is 10 or so runs better than a UZR of 0 in LF.
Joe Martinez: You are cool.
When it's all said and done, America will be remembered for three things: The Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
by cornball on Nov 15, 2009 1:31 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Peer group is important when it comes to UZR.
by xanthan on Nov 15, 2009 1:34 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
If Cameron is on this team why is playing LF instead of RF? A realy poor assumption to me. Cameron also allows the team to dump Torres and consider trading Rowand.
Who’s brain did you bring me?
Brain SabeanOranother.
by daveinexile on Nov 15, 2009 10:03 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
That's fair
I would still argue that having Bay in LF would be a larger improvement overall than having Cameron in RF, especially since our inhouse options for RF are fairly solid, and Bay’s offensive improvement over LF would be monstrous.
Give -peace- Ryan Garko a chance.
by GiantPain on Nov 15, 2009 10:09 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I should note
Our in house options in RF are fairly solid defensively
Give -peace- Ryan Garko a chance.
by GiantPain on Nov 15, 2009 10:10 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with that. That is is biggest reason I am not fully aboard the Cameron band wagon. I would rather tie Big Head down and force him to play the Ex Grizzly Crowd.
But if I have to chose between Cameron and Bay I want Cameron. Gives the team more roster options. It does not give Big Head an extra Veteran to burry the under 30 guys under because he should replace Torres.
Who’s brain did you bring me?
Brain SabeanOranother.
by daveinexile on Nov 15, 2009 10:15 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
See, I’d rather have Bay. Because unlike in many situations, in this case, the people who the gritty veteran would push out are OVERVALUED by the team (Velez and Torres Platoon?), unlike in other places where gritty veterans push out undervalued players.
Plus, come on, Bay is actually GOOD, unlike most of our gritty vets. Even in Rowands contract year playing in the bandbox, he still didn’t surpass Bay’s numbers for the past 2 years.
Give -peace- Ryan Garko a chance.
by GiantPain on Nov 15, 2009 10:23 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
But this is not a case of Bay Vs what vets we have as much as Bay vs Cameron.
If the team brings in Bay they will not lose Torress. So we will see a lot of Bay, Rowand & Torress. That arrangement makes me puke. It effectively ends any chance of upside from Bowker, Nate and anyone in the upper farm that does not play SS.
Who’s brain did you bring me?
Brain SabeanOranother.
by daveinexile on Nov 15, 2009 10:29 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
It's possible that I'm being blinded
By an irrational desire to have two good hitters in the lineup every day instead of the usual one.
Give -peace- Ryan Garko a chance.
by GiantPain on Nov 15, 2009 10:33 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I think there are better fitting choices than Bay. The true talent level is not high enough to keep trading a higher floor for a lower ceiling. The Giants have to make the choice at SS. The made the same choice at 2nd with Sanchez. Bay is that kind of a choice as well.
I look at 1st and LF a bit like the lower third of the batting order. It is a great place for younger position players, that are not blue chip types, to break into the MLB and get use to speed of the game and the pitchers. Because 1st & LF as less demanding defensive spots there is less to have to think on as they adjust learn good habits. This assumes they have logged some time there recently in the upper minors. Clogging those spots with non elite level talent is not worth it to young team that is building. And this is young and building team.
Who’s brain did you bring me?
Brain SabeanOranother.
by daveinexile on Nov 15, 2009 10:42 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Eh
I’d say Bay is at a level just below an elite hitter. He was 20th in the league based on OPS, and only 22 points below Pablo.
Obviously, I’d rather have Holliday. But I’ve thought all along that Bay was the best hitter that we have a chance of signing this year. That’s why I want him.
Give -peace- Ryan Garko a chance.
by GiantPain on Nov 15, 2009 11:10 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
But he will not get better so by your own words he is not an elite hitter. And he is definitely not an elite fielder. WE are better off churning through player that will not require 3-5 years of commitment.
Who’s brain did you bring me?
Brain SabeanOranother.
by daveinexile on Nov 15, 2009 12:09 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Would rather dump Velez
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
GET THAT VORP AND WHIP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!
by baetown415 on Nov 15, 2009 3:31 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Would rather have Bay.
Matt Cain: throwing complete game shutouts since 06'. No big deal.
by cain1rstballothof on Nov 15, 2009 3:44 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I have only been waiting for that for a year or so…
Who’s brain did you bring me?
Brain SabeanOranother.
by daveinexile on Nov 15, 2009 3:49 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
There you go.
Now I’m going to pinstripealley where money is in surplus!
Later!
Matt Cain: throwing complete game shutouts since 06'. No big deal.
by cain1rstballothof on Nov 15, 2009 3:53 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
lol. I take it the yank fan said something like that when he realized we don’t have and ownership with $30MM-$40MM they are willing to throw arround this off season?
Who’s brain did you bring me?
Brain SabeanOranother.
by daveinexile on Nov 15, 2009 4:10 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
It’s a quote, actually. That guy was a douche.
Joe Martinez: You are cool.
When it's all said and done, America will be remembered for three things: The Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
by cornball on Nov 15, 2009 5:50 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Cameron is a hell of a lot cheaper than Bay and will probably take a lot less years to sign. That’s the point.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
by jponry on Nov 14, 2009 5:41 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
This
(fewer years)
You wish you were named Frederick Deshaun...
by dregarx on Nov 14, 2009 5:44 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
omg i can’t believe i did that.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
by jponry on Nov 14, 2009 6:03 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
LOL English major
(i think?)
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
GET THAT VORP AND WHIP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!
by baetown415 on Nov 14, 2009 9:43 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Trade Rowand to either the northside or southside of Chicago for Bradley or Rios. Package Renteria with Rowand if dealing with the southside.
Get some table setters and drop FSanchez to third and PSandoval to cleanup.
Have Posey begin the season in AAA.
Sign Brad Penny
by wilriv21 on Nov 14, 2009 1:34 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Those are good ideas, but I doubt either one could realistically happen.
We should re-sign Penny though.
Give -peace- Ryan Garko a chance.
by GiantPain on Nov 14, 2009 1:43 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Sabean has pretty much ruled out anything
with Bradley, and even though he’s got a bad contract, I get the sense that Sabean thinks Rowand is still a good guy to have. It will take another year of .270 hitting and 10 HRs before Sabean will be prodded to move Rowand, and by then he’ll be more attractive to other teams with only 2 years left on that god-awful deal. So I think we’re stuck with him and Rentawreck’s contract for 2010.
With $21 million being sucked down the rat hole by those two and the arbitration bumps coming, the Giants are pretty limited in what they can do this offseason, unless Bowtie-with-Cash wants to go over $90 million, which I see no evidence of. So I think we’re looking at one bat (Johnson or Beltre) and one pitcher (Penny or Doug Davis), and that’s it, plus maybe trying to snag Juan Uribe for a 2/$7 million deal. However, I think Uribe will be getting a better deal elsewhere.
I expect there will be more fireworks next offseason, instead of this offseason.
Responsible for the last great homegrown Giants team.
by Al Rosen on Nov 14, 2009 1:48 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
"Bowtie-with-Cash"
I first read that as “Bowie with Cash” and thought, hmm, interesting mashup. Let’s Dance in Folsom Prison!
Disfrute Los Gigantes every day at www.leftymalo.com
by leftymalo on Nov 14, 2009 2:28 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Almost as good a Bowie with Bing Crosby
WHY IS BOCOCK?!
by Lars The Wanderer on Nov 14, 2009 2:34 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
FSanchez to third?
This is almost as bad as Winn at third.
Also, trading for Rios will add money to our payrolls, not take it away. So I’m against that.
You wish you were named Frederick Deshaun...
by dregarx on Nov 14, 2009 4:35 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
lol trading for rios
why is moving sanchez to third bad?
by sfoakbay on Nov 14, 2009 5:20 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
He did say Rios for Rowand and Renteria…… I guess it adds long term money, but not for next season.
Thing A
by sam23 on Nov 15, 2009 1:12 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Budget be damned
Sign Matt Holliday
Sign Nick Johnson
Roll the dice with either Juggernate or LOL FRED in RF.
This is about as rosterbatory as I get.
WHY IS BOCOCK?!
by Lars The Wanderer on Nov 14, 2009 1:40 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Budget be damned...
Put me down for a Chone Figgins at third and a Matt Holliday in left…
Figgins (3B)
Sanchez (2B)
Holliday (LF)
Sandoval (1B)
(Whatever order you want the poo to land, whether that is Schierholtz (RF) Posey © Rowand (CF) and Renteria (SS) or whichever you prefer)
by OmahaGiants on Nov 14, 2009 3:36 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I’d rather have Johnson with a short deal than Figgins with a long one.
You wish you were named Frederick Deshaun...
by dregarx on Nov 14, 2009 4:36 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
Joe Martinez: You are cool.
When it's all said and done, America will be remembered for three things: The Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
by cornball on Nov 15, 2009 1:34 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Budget be damned
Figgins at SS, Nick Johnson at 1B, Holliday in LF, Cameron in RF
Thing A
by sam23 on Nov 15, 2009 1:15 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
trade Matt Cain for Prince Fielder
by FluLikeSymptoms on Nov 14, 2009 1:47 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Tender Garko a contract
Sign Nick Johnson for 2 years plus club option
Sign Mike Cameron for CF/RF for 1 year plus club option
Sign Brad Penny for 2 years
Sign Brad Ausmus (minor league contract w/ ST inv)
Look to see what you can get for some of the OF spare parts (Bowker, Lewis, Velez, Torres)
Look to trade Rowand for another bad contract.
Lincecum
Cain
Penny
Zito
Dirty
1B Johnson
2B Sanchez
SS LOLeria
3B Panda
LF Lewis (haha) Velez/Torres
CF Rowand/Cameron
RF Rowand/Cameron
id do the relief pitchers but i already…. you know.
by Giant Voodoo on Nov 14, 2009 1:55 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
I like most of your ideas. Except why should they sign Garko and Nick Johnson? Johnson hits left handers pretty good. And my order of preference in left field would be: Bowker, Lewis, Nate, Torres, Velez.
"It's too late now."
by ResDog on Nov 14, 2009 2:14 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Very interested to see how the Meulens/Bowker and Meulens/Velez dynamic works out at the ML level. Looking for a breakout season from John Boy Bowker
by wilriv21 on Nov 14, 2009 2:20 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Need Garko for when Johnson hurts himself. And yeah, Bowker should be starting over Fred. Also, Penny is the #4 starter; putting his velocity later in the rotation should help, then you also don’t have RHP RHP RHP LHP LHP.
by quincy0191 on Nov 14, 2009 2:56 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I disagree about Bowker, but that’s a good point that if we sign Nick Johnson we’d be crazy to non-tender Garko.
Barry Zito: Mike Hampton with a guitar
by JakeS on Nov 14, 2009 4:06 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah exactly
Garko allows us to breathe a bit easier when Johnson does go down.
Sorry I didn’t really mean to put them up in any particular order. Most likely I’d put it as
Lincecum
Cain
Zito
Penny
Dirty
by Giant Voodoo on Nov 15, 2009 5:05 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I kinda want to see what Jesus Guzman can do with ABs actually… If only he was a decent defender…
by thel33whosnotazn on Nov 14, 2009 2:19 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
I dunno
His minor league numbers aren’t really all that impressive.
I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
Mr. F! | comics | art | New Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory
by Natto on Nov 14, 2009 2:25 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I'd be happy with
-Sign Johnson to a 2 year deal
-Check the price on Willingham if it’s reasonable, make the deal. If not, stand pat.
-Sign Duchscherer, Bedard, Penny, Sheets or some other high ceiling starter on a cheapish deal.
Without Willingham:
LF- Velez/Torres
1B- Johnson
2B- Sanchez
3B- Sandoval
RF- Bowker
C- Posey
CF- Rowand
SS- Renteria
With Willingham:
LF- Velez/Torres
1B- Johnson
RF- Willingham
3B- Sandoval
2B- Sanchez
C- Posey
CF- Rowand
SS- Renteria
Ideally Fred would play left in both of these situations and bat lead off, but we all know that isn’t going to happen.
Adopted brother of Jason Jarvis.
by j14 on Nov 14, 2009 2:56 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
I like this
Cameron would be a good pickup if we can’t get Willingham, and I’d like to see if we can swing a deal for Jonny Gomes (.541 SLG!) considering the Reds are trying to shed payroll and he’s already a non-tender candidate. Obviously not a perfect piece, but he’s got RH power (good for AT&T) and his LF defense was actually positive last year. I know Cincinnati is a bandbox, but he strikes me as a potential force that can be had for cheap.
We do need a starter, and there are so many reclamation projects we shouldn’t be exclusively focused on Penny. Also, Bowker>Fred.
by quincy0191 on Nov 14, 2009 3:01 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Gomes
I wouldn’t read too much into his LF being defense being positive last year, especially since his RF was -43.1 UZR/150 in a similar sample size. I’d rather just stick with Bowker if we couldn’t get Willingham. I wouldn’t mind Cameron though.
Re: Bowker>Fred…
It depends on what you’re looking for. In this case, we’re talking about someone to be a table setter from the lead off spot. So Fred>Bowker.
Adopted brother of Jason Jarvis.
by j14 on Nov 14, 2009 3:17 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, but I don’t like the notion of a “table-setter”; I’d rather stack the lineup with the best hitters possible. If you had a team with Mauer, Pujols, Utley, HanRam, Longoria, Braun, Kemp, and Zobrist, you wouldn’t be better served by replacing one of those guys with a “table-setter” (Kemp would probably bat leadoff because of his speed, but he’s not a true leadoff hitter) since they can all mash the crap out of the ball. So IMO the best thing to do is just to play the best guys, in which case Bowker>Lewis.
by quincy0191 on Nov 14, 2009 3:44 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Bowker’s career ML line: .244/.291/.402 (423 AB)
Bowker’s career minor-league line: .301/.369/.489 (2358 AB)
Schierholtz’ career ML line: .284/.316/.415 (506 AB)
Schierholtz’s career minor-league line: .308/.355/.516 (2643 AB)
How come Nate gets written off after half a season of sucking in the majors but Bowker doesn’t, even with their very similar minor-league track records? I’m not particularly convinced that Bowker is better than Lewis either for that matter.
Barry Zito: Mike Hampton with a guitar
by JakeS on Nov 14, 2009 4:15 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
+1
And it is Nate that is actually the younger of the two.
by giantsrainman on Nov 14, 2009 4:33 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
even though bowker has a higher ceiling and nate is a known quantity
by sfoakbay on Nov 14, 2009 5:22 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
This is what I’m asking, WHY? How do 79 more ML at-bats by a younger player make him the known quantity? Why on earth does Bowker have the higher ceiling? Nobody thought that when they were drafted…
Barry Zito: Mike Hampton with a guitar
by JakeS on Nov 14, 2009 5:33 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
i'm not saying that
nate is necessarily bad, it’s just that we know what we’re getting with him, whereas bowker is much more of a mystery. with nate, you have an amazing arm, pinpoint accuracy, speed, low OBP, and decent pop. bowker, in the minors this year, greatly improved his OBP, his biggest problem from 2008. he has shown the potential for power as well.
by sfoakbay on Nov 14, 2009 5:38 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I just don’t see how one is more a known quantity than the other. Virtually identical minor-league lines, Schierholtz a slightly better ML line and a year younger. I get that Bowker bopped at AAA last year, but lest we forget Todd Linden I think I’m going to have to defer to career numbers.
Barry Zito: Mike Hampton with a guitar
by JakeS on Nov 14, 2009 5:43 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
ok Guys How bout this
why not start Nate in the outfield with Velez and Rowand
and start bowker at first
There are no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq Chuck Norris lives in Texas
by Mike Fox on Nov 14, 2009 10:33 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Because Bowker is a left fielder, and it’s hard to play left field when you’re standing at first base?
by quincy0191 on Nov 14, 2009 10:36 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Why would you start Velez at all?
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
GET THAT VORP AND WHIP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!
by baetown415 on Nov 14, 2009 10:56 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Replace Velez with almost anybody and I’m fine with that. Not nearly aggressive enough a move for what will actually happen I suspect.
Barry Zito: Mike Hampton with a guitar
by JakeS on Nov 15, 2009 1:08 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Because Bowker is an atrocious defensive first-baseman. Did you watch this team in ’08?
Joe Martinez: You are cool.
When it's all said and done, America will be remembered for three things: The Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
by cornball on Nov 15, 2009 1:36 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I’m not writing off Nate; I want him to be the starting RF (or even better, trade Rowand and put him in center). I like him a lot. I just believe in Bowker’s turnaround; he adjusted his plate approach and his numbers shot up. I think he can replicate that in the majors, and if he does, he’ll post a MUCH higher OPS than Nate; he’s got more power and a better OBP. Nate has a strong edge defensively, though; he’s fast and he’s got a cannon, which is great for Mays Field’s enormous right-center. Both guys should have starting roles in 2010.
by quincy0191 on Nov 14, 2009 8:09 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I’d agree with you if I believed for a moment that Bowker’s improved plate discipline was legit. One season at a 16.8% BB% doesn’t outweigh the rest of his career below 7% to me, and anecdotally I can’t think of many free swingers who were able to suddenly alter and maintain their approach like that.
Barry Zito: Mike Hampton with a guitar
by JakeS on Nov 15, 2009 1:17 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t know; if your career BB% is 7 and you post a year of 9, that’s a fluctuation. Posting a BB% which is more than double your career average shows me that you’ve made serious changes. What if Pablo doubled his HR% and hit 50 dingers next season? That kind of outlier just doesn’t seem like it would naturally occur in the course of a career. And you’re right, not many players do that. But occasionally one does, and you see the difference.
I also think Meulens is a legit hitting coach. He worked with Bowker, and Bowker became an offensive monster. He worked with Velez and Velez became not-Velez. Seems to me like he’s making a difference in these guys’ performance.
by quincy0191 on Nov 15, 2009 1:35 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t really believe in hitting coaches or pitching coaches, so I can’t speak to that.
Barry Zito: Mike Hampton with a guitar
by JakeS on Nov 15, 2009 1:55 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Willingham In RF AT AT&T Would Be A Huge Mistake
Willingham should be limited to LF and/or 1B.
by giantsrainman on Nov 14, 2009 3:23 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Good Point
I didn’t really think about that. Play him him in left then I don’t really know what to do with RF/Lead off
Adopted brother of Jason Jarvis.
by j14 on Nov 14, 2009 4:24 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
If we've moved away from the idea about Nate staying there in 2010,
and we accept that Rowand will be around one more year, what about Torres playing RF?
Responsible for the last great homegrown Giants team.
by Al Rosen on Nov 14, 2009 4:27 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Against lefties I would be ok with the idea. I guess a Fred/Torres platoon wouldn’t be the end of the world.
Adopted brother of Jason Jarvis.
by j14 on Nov 14, 2009 4:32 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Is Fred Arb Eligible or not? It looks like he is. I wonder what he’d make if the Giants even wanted to keep him?
Matt Cain: throwing complete game shutouts since 06'. No big deal.
by cain1rstballothof on Nov 14, 2009 5:23 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
What about Matt Murton as a backup OF? Righty with decent numbers.
Matt Cain: throwing complete game shutouts since 06'. No big deal.
by cain1rstballothof on Nov 14, 2009 5:24 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t think he is. MLBTR’s Offseason Outlook had him at $440K and he’s got less service time than Lincecum, who’s barely a Super Two.
by quincy0191 on Nov 14, 2009 8:12 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
If you want to go for broke
Sell the farm to the extent necessary to acquire both Uggs and Willingham, and we could compete for realsies.
Give -peace- Ryan Garko a chance.
by GiantPain on Nov 14, 2009 6:50 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Selling the farm for those two guys would be a horrible idea wtf.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
by jponry on Nov 14, 2009 7:01 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't mean pay more than is necessary
You wouldn’t need to sell the entire farm. Like I said, getting both Willingham and Uggla would make our offense somewhat respectable. But they would require some prospects to get.
Give -peace- Ryan Garko a chance.
by GiantPain on Nov 14, 2009 7:06 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
"I don't mean pay more than is necessary"
you forget about the cost of doing business (see Alderson, Tim and Barnes, Scott)
Grab Some Pine Meat!
by Gobroks on Nov 14, 2009 8:26 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
They would both be very useful to this team
but you don’t need to sell the farm for them.
Matt Cain: throwing complete game shutouts since 06'. No big deal.
by cain1rstballothof on Nov 14, 2009 7:07 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Damn you two, stop ignoring “to the extent necessary”.
Give -peace- Ryan Garko a chance.
by GiantPain on Nov 14, 2009 7:21 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
No, I’m with you GiantPain, I’m just sayin’ I don’t think it would even take the farm to get them.
Matt Cain: throwing complete game shutouts since 06'. No big deal.
by cain1rstballothof on Nov 14, 2009 7:50 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't
It would be nice to have both on the team, but the cost of acquiring them would just be too high (I think, but I’m terrible at predicting trade packages). I’d like to see the Giants acquire an infield and outfield bat, preferably one through trade and one through free agency because I feel it spreads the risk around a bit by not shelling out a ton of cash or trading away a lot of prospects.
If they could trade for Uggla, I’d like to see them sign Cameron.
If they could trade for Willingham, then sign Johnson.
I think both situations really improve the offense without killing the payroll or depleting the farm system too much.
Adopted brother of Jason Jarvis.
by j14 on Nov 14, 2009 7:34 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
+1
You wish you were named Frederick Deshaun...
by dregarx on Nov 14, 2009 8:09 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
if you want to go for broke
it sure as hell shouldn’t be to acquire Dan Uggla and Josh Willingham
by FluLikeSymptoms on Nov 14, 2009 7:35 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I'll plead guilty to poor phrasing.
My point was that, if one were willing to go out and get the players to compete next year, the two best potentially available options would be Uggla and Willingham, and, in my opinion, we could compete with those two on the team.
Give -peace- Ryan Garko a chance.
by GiantPain on Nov 14, 2009 8:01 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
OK, here's one to ponder.
If the Giants had “slots” and only had $6-8 million to spend per year over the next 2 years on a corner infielder, and another slot for $4-6 million per year over the next 2 years on a starting pitcher, who would your choices be?
For the corner infielder slot, Beltre or Johnson? Or name another.
For the starting pitcher slot, Penny or Wolf, or name another.
I know it sounds way too simplistic, but I wouldn’t be surprised if Sabean is approaching his decisions like this during the offseason when he has a set amount of money available and several slots to fill. In truth, they need a corner infielder and corner outfielder, and a starting pitcher. But given the lackluster FA class this offseason, and the large contracts they need to fall off the books after next season (Renteria, and perhaps Rowand by trade). I could see them band-aiding it this offseason and making a bigger FA splash next offseason.
Responsible for the last great homegrown Giants team.
by Al Rosen on Nov 14, 2009 4:17 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Johnson.
Bedard.
You wish you were named Frederick Deshaun...
by dregarx on Nov 14, 2009 4:41 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Beltre
I’d say Johnson if I thought he could be counted on to appear in more than 100 games, but I don’t.
Sheets. I’m cheating here. Spend all 8-12M to give him a 1 year “prove he’s healthy contract” so he can cash in next offseason (something he’d be more likely to accept here, as the Giants’ park’s reputation and defense should make him look good), then go with Bumgarner for the MLB equivalent of nothing in 2011.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
by Bhaakon on Nov 14, 2009 5:04 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Under these assumed circumstances, Johnson and Penny.
Matt Cain: throwing complete game shutouts since 06'. No big deal.
by cain1rstballothof on Nov 14, 2009 5:26 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
You’re staying away from Johnson (who is MUCH better than Beltre offensively) because of injury concerns and then signing Sheets despite injury concerns? I’m confused.
by quincy0191 on Nov 14, 2009 8:20 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
The Giants have some injury insurance in the rotation, but none in the lineup.
Plus, a reasonably healthy Sheets is better than a reasonably healthy Johnson. Also, there’ going to be more injury risk associated with the average pitcher, so the difference in risk between any other starter and Sheets is less than the difference between Johnson and most position players.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
by Bhaakon on Nov 15, 2009 1:08 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I’d say the exact opposite; we’ve got a ton of AAAA players who can fill spots for a while. Past Johnson we’ve got Garko/Ishikawa to play first, both of whom can be ML starters. If Sheets gets hurt, who do we stick in the rotation? Miller? Martinez? Pucetas? Ortiz? I’m not exactly confident in any of those guys to post even decent ERAs. When we lost Johnson last year, Ryan Sadowski happened. Do we really want to do that again?
Yeah, pitchers get hurt more than position players. But Ben Sheets gets hurt a lot, even considering that. He missed parts of 2005, 2006 and 2007 and all of 2009. Johnson’s missed about half of 2003-2004, all of 2007, and most of 2008. Yeah, Nick’s going to get hurt. But there’s also a very good chance (if not a guarantee) that Sheets is going to get hurt. Considering we have just about zero rotation depth, I’d rather sign a more reliable arm and take risks in the lineup.
Sheets does provide more value than Johnson, that’s undoubtedly true. That, of course, means we have to outbid pretty much every other major league team (because everyone always needs pitching) to get Sheets. $8-12M would probably do it, but that’s a lot of money to spend on an injury-prone player who doesn’t address a weakness.
Sheets would be a good pickup; if the Giants signed him tomorrow I would be happy. I just think it’s better to allocate our resources for what we need: a #5 starter and offense. Sheets is neither of those (well, technically he could be a #5 starter, but an unnecessarily good and very expensive #5 starter). Bay City Ball’s also got a good piece on why we should sign Johnson, so I’ll let them make my argument for me on the offensive side of things.
by quincy0191 on Nov 15, 2009 1:58 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I’d say the exact opposite; we’ve got a ton of AAAA players who can fill spots for a while. Past Johnson we’ve got Garko/Ishikawa to play first, both of whom can be ML starters. If Sheets gets hurt, who do we stick in the rotation? Miller? Martinez? Pucetas? Ortiz? I’m not exactly confident in any of those guys to post even decent ERAs. When we lost Johnson last year, Ryan Sadowski happened. Do we really want to do that again?
If Sheets goes down, the Giants still have Bumgarner waiting in the wings. But more than that, they have 4 other pretty good starters and a good bullpen that they can lean on to pick up the slack. If Johnson goes down, the Giants are back to one-man show at the plate. Furthermore, the team proved perfectly capable of picking up a decent 5th starter down the stretch last season, I think it’s a hell of a lot easier (and cheaper) to find a passably competent starting pitcher to fill a hole at the back of the rotation mid-season than it is to find an above average 1B. Frankly, I find the whole idea that the Giants need to find a #5 starter to be somewhat ludicrous, they need to either take a chance on a high-upside guy like Sheets or throw a bunch of prospects, minor league contract vets, and NRI’s into the mix and see who emerges in Spring training. I personally lean towards the alter option, but the hypothetical situation in the original comment required a FA pitcher.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
by Bhaakon on Nov 15, 2009 2:25 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Bumgarner needs one season in Triple-A before he’s ready. If (when) Sheets goes down, he probably should not be called up. Bumgarner in my opinion (and apparently in the opinion of the team) should not be relied on as a backup for anyone, and Garko definitely should be. We know Garko’s is a major-league caliber player; the same can’t be said of Bumgarner (yes, there is almost zero chance he isn’t, but he hasn’t been up long enough for us to know what he can do against ML hitters). So I feel safer with Garko as a backup for Johnson than Bumgarner as a backup for Sheets.
Also, we managed to pick Penny off the scrap heap last year, and he went crazy over here. That was an anomalous case; look at Jarrod Washburn: sub-3 ERA with the Mariners, over 7 ERA with the Tigers (also an anomalous case, and more likely with a pitcher who was released like Penny). We really can’t rely on another team just dropping a viable starter into our lap. There’s a reason pitching is so highly prized; it’s hard to develop, hard to find, and hard to acquire. If we wanted to get an above-average hitter first, that would not take long; getting an above-average first baseman might be hard, but most first basemen are great hitters. Johnson is more easily replaced than Sheets.
We need a #5 starter because Bumgarner isn’t ready and none of our AAA options are good; tossing a bunch of vets minor-league deals will result in a bunch of vets who can’t pitch anymore showing us how they can’t pitch anymore. Like I said, pitching is highly prized; if the castoffs were good they wouldn’t be castoffs.
by quincy0191 on Nov 15, 2009 1:34 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
true, but what about
signing Ivan Rodriguez for catcher
Chad Tracy for 3b/ 1b
garret annderson for of or Sheffield
and maybe see if we could look into signing either Garland or even Kelvim Escobar maybe we could get him cheap because of injuries
Ivan is a great fielding cather gets hits and usually hits for high avg
Chad Tracy always has and over .300 ob percentage and can hit for power plus we can get him cheap while he is in his prime because he is underrated could be our answer to 1b problems
You could get Garret anderson really cheap 3 mil and under and he is a good hitter, gets hits, hits high avg and always hits above .300 obs
Garland and Escobar are fine pitchers. Escobar is exceptional and we could get him cheap because of his injury. Garland could be signed cheaply as well
We would spend extra dough but we would be a way better team
lineup
Rowand because he hit wel at leadoff last year
Sanchez
Uribe
Pablo
Anderson
Tracy
Schierholz
Ivan Rodriguez
pitcher
Rotation
Lincecum
Cain
Sanchez
penny
garland
If Escobar was signed
Rotation
Lincecum
Cain
Escobar
Sanchez
Penny
There are no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq Chuck Norris lives in Texas
by Mike Fox on Nov 15, 2009 11:39 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Mike Fox
Are you kidding? Go to sleep
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
GET THAT VORP AND WHIP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!
by baetown415 on Nov 16, 2009 12:18 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Escobar’s been injured for most of the last two years, and he’s apparently a reliever now. There’s reclamation projects, and there’s bad ideas. Signing a relief pitcher who’s started one game in the last two years to be a even #5 guy is not a good idea.
Garret Anderson is just bad. He was below replacement last year and he hasn’t been good since 2003. After six years, it’s time to let go.
Garland would be a good guy to look at, as he’s been a reliable innings-eater, but given the money on his last contract he’s looking for eight figures, which we can’t afford. He probably won’t get it, but there are a lot of cheaper pitchers with higher upside anyway.
Tracy’s been below replacement the last two years. There are much, much better acquisitions for either first or third. Definitely pass.
Ivan Rodriguez actually makes a lot of sense for the team, in the same way that Gregg Zaun or Brad Ausmus or Jason Kendall does: as a backup and mentor for Posey. However, Rodriguez will likely be the most expensive of the four (he’s represented by Boras) and the least valuable of the four (Ausmus is the only one who posted a lower WAR, but he played in 25 fewer games and was only off by 0.2). I wouldn’t be unhappy if we picked him up on a super-cheap deal, but Boras is not known for letting his guys take super-cheap deals.
by quincy0191 on Nov 16, 2009 1:30 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Dude, don’t you have class this morning? And do some statistical research next time. Ivan Rodriquez is no longer a starting-caliber ML catcher and Garrett Anderson is no longer a good hitter.
Joe Martinez: You are cool.
When it's all said and done, America will be remembered for three things: The Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
by cornball on Nov 16, 2009 8:12 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Troll sense getting stronger and stronger…
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
by jponry on Nov 16, 2009 10:57 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
OO I KNOW!
how bout none of the above!
by sfoakbay on Nov 16, 2009 6:12 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Johnson and Duchscherer (if Wolf makes $6M per year then Duchscherer isn’t going to make more). If Duke is too expensive then Mark Prior on a minor-league deal and the rest for whoever can be afforded between Penny/Harden/Pineiro/Davis/Bedard.
by quincy0191 on Nov 14, 2009 8:26 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Trade Garko and Medders for Pujols
Trade Frandsen and Valdez for Utley
Trade Renteria and Sosa for Hanley
#1 threat to America: Pandas
Also, Tim Lincecum
Adopted Father: Tyler Graham
Official McPokeMaster
Registered Velezbian and supporter of Fredemption
by GrahamCrakalaka on Nov 14, 2009 8:22 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Trade Rowand and Pucetas for Kemp.
Trade Zito and Downs for Felix Hernandez.
If Molina accepts arbitration, trade him and Miller for Mauer.
by quincy0191 on Nov 14, 2009 8:30 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Puh-leeze
By this time Sabean’s just getting started. Now he’s got to figure out a way to trade all these guys for mediocre prospects and then justify it to the fanbase.
by quincy0191 on Nov 14, 2009 10:51 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes all those trades are very realistic
how about this
Trade Rowans for Ichiro
Trade zito and Downs for Johan Santana
Then trade Eli Whiteside and Rentaria for Brian McCann
There are no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq Chuck Norris lives in Texas
by Mike Fox on Nov 14, 2009 10:42 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
you know, i'm coming to expect this type of stuff
from you, even though i know you weren’t serious in this case (or were you?)
by sfoakbay on Nov 14, 2009 10:43 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I...I think he was....
He started it off with
Yes all those trades are very realistic
which implies that he recognized the sarcasm (BUT NOT THE +REPLY BUTTON!!!), and then he differentiated between those ideas and his with
how about this
which suggests suggestions were serious.
by quincy0191 on Nov 14, 2009 10:49 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
which suggests his suggestions were serious. DICTION FAIL as well.
by quincy0191 on Nov 14, 2009 10:50 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t think he was serious.
You wish you were named Frederick Deshaun...
by dregarx on Nov 14, 2009 11:04 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
No No I was sarcastic of course these would never happen I just need to develop my sarcasm
There are no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq Chuck Norris lives in Texas
by Mike Fox on Nov 14, 2009 10:55 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Dude
You’re in 8th grade. You should be able to spot the “reply” button and use it. It helps everyone…
Just saying…
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
GET THAT VORP AND WHIP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!
by baetown415 on Nov 14, 2009 10:57 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
+reply
Joe Martinez: You are cool.
When it's all said and done, America will be remembered for three things: The Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
by cornball on Nov 15, 2009 1:38 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Oh check this blog I did on the Warriors if you like basketball
http://www.goldenstateofmind.com/2009/11/14/1157787/we-have-to-change
There are no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq Chuck Norris lives in Texas
by Mike Fox on Nov 14, 2009 11:18 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
This is not a basketball site.
Joe Martinez: You are cool.
When it's all said and done, America will be remembered for three things: The Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
by cornball on Nov 15, 2009 1:38 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
How bout them Cowboys??
"All I know is right now, you comeback and do you dwell on that? I think you're man enough to take it, you're man enough to chew on it, to spit it out and you learn from it. ... I think winners let it go. I think losers dwell on it and talk about it all week and that screws you up for the next opportunity going forward." - Mike Singletary after the 49ers loss to the Vikings
by SFGuy on Nov 15, 2009 4:40 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Go Florida UFL team which name I don’t know, nor do I care.
"All I know is right now, you comeback and do you dwell on that? I think you're man enough to take it, you're man enough to chew on it, to spit it out and you learn from it. ... I think winners let it go. I think losers dwell on it and talk about it all week and that screws you up for the next opportunity going forward." - Mike Singletary after the 49ers loss to the Vikings
by SFGuy on Nov 15, 2009 5:32 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I’d like to discuss my local horseshoes team.
The baseball Satanist
by thehavenot on Nov 15, 2009 9:27 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Well if anyone of you play the stock market, how about HTDS, BIEL, and ADLS?
by AndrewWK on Nov 15, 2009 11:08 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
If only the Giants were a horseshoe team.
All the times they got close to winning a ring would count.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
by Bhaakon on Nov 16, 2009 8:57 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
RF Chone Figgins
2B Freddie Sanchez
CF Milton Bradley
3B Pablo Sandoval
SS Juan Uribe
C Buster Posey
1B Travis Ishikawa/Ryan Garko
LF Freddie Lewis/John Bowker/Nate Schieurholtz/Eugenio Velez
by AndrewWK on Nov 15, 2009 1:08 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Yes plz except Figgins is DNW (overrated, expensive). Get Nick Johnson instead, put Bradley in right, Schierholtz in center, and Bowker in left. Torres as the 4th OF (switch hitter, plus defense and speed).
Although I feel compelled to point out it is wildly unrealistic (Renteria’s AWOL, we’re not smart enough to get Bradley, Figgins is too expensive after we sign the mediocre veteran who decided to wait till now to enter his precipitous decline, Bochy’s too stupid to play Not Velez). Though I’m sure you have realized that fact.
by quincy0191 on Nov 15, 2009 2:02 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I think I’m in the minority on this one, but I believe that, next to OBP, the Giant’s biggest offensive issue was speed, not power. I was less frustrated with the Giant’s inability to put the ball out of the park, and more frustrated with the station to station offense Bochy put on the field week after week. Even if Figgins’s numbers take a step back, he’s still the blazer of a lead off man the Giant’s haven’t had since…
And unfortunatly, you’re right, my offseason hopes are “wildly unrealistic.” Which is really a shame because I don’t think anything I’ve proposed is overly farfetched or without the proper DD.
by AndrewWK on Nov 15, 2009 1:52 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Torres, Velez, Lewis, Schierholtz, and Winn were all fast. Rowand, Sandoval, Ishikawa, and Renteria were all meh to slow. Bengie Molina was a slow glacier that was mocked by the other glaciers for his very slowness. Speed wasn’t an issue so much as never telling guys to steal or run was an issue. OBP and power were much bigger problems IMO.
by quincy0191 on Nov 15, 2009 2:14 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t think in a minority. The McCoven spent a fair amount of pixels in ‘07 &’08 complaining how a lack SLG does not make speed team. As for the station to station even this season Big Head was often criticized for his playing the last half of game as if a some in the lineup will hit a home run and win the game for him.
Who’s brain did you bring me?
Brain SabeanOranother.
by daveinexile on Nov 15, 2009 2:16 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t know why people think Figgins is overrated. He had a .395 OBP last year with 42 stolen bases. He’s a spectacular lead-off man, and that’s a huge hole in the Giants’ line up right now.
Is the main concern with his cost? If so, what kind of deal is expected for him, and what would people expect for a somewhat similar pickup in Nick Johnson?
by GrooveGiant on Nov 15, 2009 3:16 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
And if he did that every season, people wouldn’t think he’s overrated. Sadly, he’s only done it twice in eight years.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
by Bhaakon on Nov 15, 2009 3:25 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Year Age Tm PA SB CS OBP
2003 25 ANA 270 13 7 .345
2004 26 ANA 638 34 13 .350
2005 27 LAA 720 62 17 .352
2006 28 LAA 683 52 16 .336
2007 29 LAA 503 41 12 .393
2008 30 LAA 520 34 13 .367
2009 31 LAA 729 42 17 .395
8 Seasons 4075 280 96 .363
Provided by Baseball-Reference.com: View Original Table
Generated 11/15/2009.
Career high OBP makes an overpay due to a career year likely. Also, look at his high numbers on times caught stealing. A 71.2% success rate when the league average is 73.8% isn’t all that great. You have to look at rate stats, rather than just the raw numbers, to get a true indication of how much his baserunning helps the team.
Sure his speed means he is a plus on the bases, but not as good as you may expect by looking at the SB totals.
Also: wow, that’s a lot of plate appearances.
You wish you were named Frederick Deshaun...
by dregarx on Nov 15, 2009 2:19 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
next year
1. thank god winn is gone. love the guy but too old and cant hit. get some young talent in the outfield and watch us roll
2. get rid of benji molina and start buster posey. like winn, molina is too old and cant hit. posey is young and highly prized. the organization believes in him and bumgarner to be a part of the future so throw them out there and let them play ball
3. get a BIG BAT. i liked the sanchez and garko moves, but so far we havent seen much from them and they certainly werent big enough bats to get us into the postseason. also gark kinda sucks. ive heard rumors about jermaine dye but i think hes pretty old too. id love to see braun or fielder here or at least some star studded player. we need a big star player thats not a pitcher. he needs to hit and hit well. and often. and the panda doesnt count because we already have him. we need MORE
4. make moves this offseason. just make some
by nhlogan on Nov 17, 2009 1:59 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Interesting
who should we trade for, say…..Fielder?
#1 threat to America: Pandas
Also, Tim Lincecum
Adopted Father: Tyler Graham
Official McPokeMaster
Registered Velezbian and supporter of Fredemption
by GrahamCrakalaka on Nov 17, 2009 5:43 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Sanchez 4 PooHoles!
It helps both teams!
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
by Bhaakon on Nov 17, 2009 11:47 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
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