Reds need to unload
MLBTR is repoting that the Reds may need to significantly cut payroll and that if a team were willing to take on a bad contract ($12.5M A. Harang) they may be willing to move Votto to open a spot for Alonso. Votto may be the best up and coming 1B and had some anxiety DL issues, what would it take to get it done? Sanchez + Ishi or Garko + Romo? Or would it take Madnum, which I'd be perfectly OK with for Votto.
over 2 years ago
cain1rstballothof
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Madbum, sorry.
Matt Cain: throwing complete game shutouts since 06'. No big deal.
by cain1rstballothof on Nov 10, 2009 11:13 PM PST reply actions
Cain’s too expensive but I bet Madbum would really work.
Matt Cain: throwing complete game shutouts since 06'. No big deal.
by cain1rstballothof on Nov 10, 2009 11:51 PM PST up reply actions
It would have to be Madbum, Crawford and a little more for Votto. His stick is just that good and they are already having attendace problems. If they more the kid Votto for anything less than a huge haul and their fans will revolt.
Who’s brain did you bring me?
Brain SabeanOranother.
If that were the starting price for Votto, I’m still listening. Intently.
by Grant Brisbee on Nov 11, 2009 9:26 AM PST up reply actions
I think that would be fair starting point. The Reds have had SS issues for a while now. Last I looked ( it has been a while so I could be wrong) they don’t have much in the farm there. They would need something the casual fans could at least not be tottaly pissed off at as well. It would be sort of like us tradeing Panda if he has another year like last year. I also think the stakes at that table are way to high for Giants wallet.
Who’s brain did you bring me?
Brain SabeanOranother.
me too
There aren’t many young players who would better fit exactly what the Giants need. The anxiety thing concerns me, but it’s been overcome by other players in the past (see: Greinke, Zack)… I think I’m on the JoeVo bandwagon… fo’ sho.
Idolizing Robb Nen since 2002...
by Smoke on the Water on Nov 11, 2009 4:52 PM PST up reply actions
I wouldn't really call Harang a bad contract.
They got about what they paid for last season. Not so much in 2008, but the first two years of the contract were such a bargain that it’s hard to complain. He probably won’t be worth 14.5M next season (his salary + the buyout), but close enough that I wouldn’t call it a disastrous, or even particularly bad, acquisition.
If my team needed pitching, I’d probably take Harang and contract without further enticement. Both because he’s still pretty good, and because I wouldn’t mind paying a guy like him a couple million over market value salary for one season in order to avoid the risk of signing a similar FA to a long-term contract.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
I would kick the tires on Phillips, and move Sanchez to 3B,
if it wasn’t for the god-awful backloading of Phillips’ deal, which soars after 2010. Of course, if the Giants could dump Rowand this offseason and re-tool the outfield, then having a Sanchez-Rentawreck-Phillips-Panda infield, and Rowand off the books in the outyears would be fine.
Harang and Arroyo are both decent arms, with Arroyo being $1.5 million cheaper in 2010 IIRC. But if you are going to spend $11-12.5 million on either Harang or Arroyo in 2010, why not sign Penny for half that?
Responsible for the last great homegrown Giants team.
because Penny for half that
doesn’t come with Votto.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
No one is going to get Votto,
and if Jocketty dumped him in order to rid himself of an expensive veteran less than a season after he acquired Scott Rolen, the owner would can his ass. It’s a nice bit of speculation by someone that Votto’s name even came up, but it makes no sense for the Reds to send him away just to shed payroll.
Responsible for the last great homegrown Giants team.
by Al Rosen on Nov 11, 2009 12:05 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Probably true
but that’s what the fanshot was speculating on. You’re right, it would make no sense to get Harang or Arroyo considering it would cost us money and (probably minimal) prospects.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
Acquiring Bumgarner while dumping $12.5M from payroll is hardly just " dumping" him. The Reds could use a cheap controllable ace and they’ve got Alonso to take Votto’s spot. I just wonder how much better they could do, than Madbum.
It’s definitely not likely.
Matt Cain: throwing complete game shutouts since 06'. No big deal.
by cain1rstballothof on Nov 11, 2009 12:41 AM PST up reply actions
They probably couldn’t do better in terms of a better overall prospect, but they might be able to get a better collection of prospects.
I’m just not sure there are any other teams as desperate for a 1B to give up a group of prospects for Votto that would be better than Bumgarner + Garko. And if that’s the case, they may be better off not moving him, like Al said.
Could you really get Penny for half that?
Besides, Harang has been better than Penny the last two seasons. Actually, each of the last five seasons.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
Why get Phillips when the team could get possibly get Johnson or Cammerron for simmilar or less commitments? Getting Phillips would have been a real intrest idea a couple weeks ago before Fred Sanchez was inked but now is not so much.
Who’s brain did you bring me?
Brain SabeanOranother.
It would definitely be a defensive upgrade to have Pablo move to 1B, Phillips at 2B, and Sanchez at 3B. But offensively you’d prefer to have Johnson. Although Phillips hits more dingerz!
I guess I need to go look at Sanchez Vs the rest of the non elite 3rd baseman as well. Off the cuff I kind of get the feeling this is smallest upgrade for the recourses the team could do. If I am right then that is probably the choice Sabean makes.
Who’s brain did you bring me?
Brain SabeanOranother.
I think ideally you’d try to acquire a 3rd baseman for the prospect haul that it would take to get Phillips, but that hasn’t exactly worked recently. Although if you’re going after Phillips you could probably get Uggla for less, and I’d much rather have Uggla.
Move Uglla over to 1st base…
/ Fap, Fap, Fap
Who’s brain did you bring me?
Brain SabeanOranother.
by daveinexile on Nov 11, 2009 10:11 AM PST up reply actions
I doubt the Reds will be offloading Votto at all, especially to dump one of their contracts. Those contracts aren’t really that bad and they should be able to dump them in other ways (although they’ll have to eat some money) It would likely cost a decent amount more than Bumgarner to acquire Votto.
Proud parent of Waldis Joaquin!
Votto value > Bumgarner value? Really?
It’s early but… Wouldn’t a premium LHP prospect have greater value than a premium 1b prospect? I know that Votto is no longer considered a prospect, but he’s not exactly all-star status yet either. If his value is that much greater than Bumgarner’s, then that edge can be set off by coupling him with a contract they need to dump—enter Bronson Arroyo.
To me, an Arroyo/Votto for Bumgarner/Garko swap would work here. Cinci cuts the Arroyo costs, gets a premium LHP prospect, and have Garko play decent 1b until Alonso is ready.
I would think that Votto would have greater value because he’s proven himself to be a very good MLB player which Bumgarner hasn’t. The best comparison on the Giants would be Cain as he’s a similar value player to Votto. Would you trade Cain with four years left before free agency (as opposed to the two that actually has) for a prospect like Bumgarner?
Proud parent of Waldis Joaquin!
Wait, now you’re suggesting that Cain and Votto have similar value? That’s a stretch. I wouldn’t trade Cain for Votto, who I’ll admit has more value that Bumgarner due to his MLB experience, but I believe Cain’s value is greater than Votto’s.
since you’re driving a hard bargain, I’ll throw in Noonan, and maybe a Bocock for good measure.
Yeah, people always say “team X is never going to move player Y” but these kinds of things happen all the time (as I’ve said before, there were people at McCC that said Tampa Bay would never trade Delmon Young literally within weeks of it happening). If the Reds don’t feel Alonso can play 3B at the major league level, then it makes sense to move one of these two guys to fill some other position of need. If they can shed a contract and bring back an excellent prospect at the same time the move frankly makes plenty of sense.
In a different situation, it sure looks to me like San Diego’s going to have to move either Gonzalez or Blanks going forward. I don’t think Gonzalez can play any position but 1B and Blanks surely can’t. If its Gonzalez they move then I don’t think we have the talent to get into that bidding. But if it’s Blanks? We might be able to put a competitive deal together there.
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
It’s possible that they decide to move Votto (although i doubt they’d include him with a contract) but they’d undoubtedly want a huge amount in return and most likely much more than Bumgarner. I don’t see why they wouldn’t expect at least a similar return to Gonzalez as he’s of similar ability and is under contract for twice as long. I’d love to acquire either player but the price is likely be pretty huge for both of them.
Can’t see Sabean targeting a player like Blanks as he’s un-proven and i doubt he’d be prepared to give up the necessary talent.
Proud parent of Waldis Joaquin!
I bet we could get Brandon Phillips for Tim Alderson and Scott Barnes
Please hit better, Randy Winn.
Not to defend those trades, but we need to keep in mind that we were attempting to trade for a post-season berth, which gave Garko and Sanchez added value. I still think they were dumb trades, but acquiring Brandon Phillips for 2010 doesn’t give us a chance at the wild card in 2009.
Merkin Valdez? Manuel Mateo? A rose by any other name...
I think I’ve already made too many ejaculation jokes in the last day or so.
When my ejaculation joke refractory period ends, though, I’ll be back. And I’ll bring it all over this thread.
Context, people. More context is good. Less context is bad. If you're willing to be reductive, then you're willing to be wrong.
This is such bullshit. The Reds are not trading Votto. Especially not yet when he is under control for a few more years. He’s their best player, he’s CHEAP, and he’s a pretty damn good hitter and first baseman.
Maybe in a few years they do this, but not now.
Way to go, Professor Buzzkill, now my metaphorical chubby has subsided.
Utter frustration and futility.
by Johnny Disaster on Nov 11, 2009 10:58 AM PST up reply actions
Re: Votto
from Rotorld
General manager Walt Jocketty doesn’t have any plans to trade Joey Votto.
“Oh God, no,” Jocketty said. Upon news that the Reds were eager to slash payroll, some speculated that the Reds could pair Votto with an expensive veteran to make a trade more appealing, but Jocketty has no plans to trade the 26-year-old first baseman. Votto is the type of player Jocketty wants to acquire, not trade away.
YOU EAT YOUR DAMN EGGROLL
oh well, the delusion was fun while it lasted.
Idolizing Robb Nen since 2002...
by Smoke on the Water on Nov 11, 2009 4:54 PM PST up reply actions
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