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The problem with Sabean

 

When I first got to Vietnam in ’62 I was surprised at who were the top management there.  I had worked with all of them in Iran.  We were about to become perhaps the largest civil engineering/construction organization in history and the project manager was an ex-mechanic.  That would have been OK if he were a good organizer and delegated to the right people who knew what they were doing.  That wasn’t the case here.  His top assistant was his best friend, also an ex-mechanic.  To complete the triumvirate, the project engineer was a mechanical engineer.  This would have worked great if all our problems were mechanical.  I was a civil engineer.  There was no one I could talk to.  Plans to management were like kryptonite to Superman.  Open a set of plans and they were out the door.

 

I think this is similar to the Giants organization.  Sabean is an eyeball scout.  He only believes what he sees.  He doesn’t trust numbers.  “Don’t talk numbers to me, I know what I see.”  He only hires eyeball scouts.  Bochy is an eyeball manager.  They all talk the same language.  “He swings reeeeel good!”

 

This seems to work great for pitching.  Sabean is a great judge of pitching talent.  Bochy was the best handler of pitchers in the NL this year.  It doesn’t work for hitting.  To properly evaluate hitting you need numbers.  You have to evaluate what the hitter has done over an extended period.  That will show if he has any plate discipline.  The Giant organization has come up way short in that area.

 

The Giants minor league system had an incredible .603 winning percentage this year.  The Yankees were second at .554 and 34 games behind.  But take a look behind those numbers. 

 

The top farm team at Fresno was 14th in a 16 team league in drawing walks.

 

The AA team was dead last in walks in a 12 team league.

 

In the Arizona Rookie League they were 10th in an 11 team league

 

Do you see a pattern here?

 

Some other teams in the Giant system were near average but none were above average.

 

Top prospect (until…problems) Angel Villalona drew 9 walks in 310 PA.  That’s less than 3%.

 

Third round draft pick this year, Christopher Dominquez, drew 9 walks in 198 PA.  That’s less than 5%.

 

Hot 21-year-old prospect, Francisco Pequero, hit 353 in low A.  He drew 8 walks in 328 PA.  That’s worse than the others.  He’s a singles hitting outfielder.  What a waste of talent.  Unless someone can teach him what the strike zone is, he’ll be worthless to the franchise.

 

So the Giant system has hackers at the top, hackers at the bottom, and hackers all through the organization.  Remember how frustrated you got with all those wild swingers this year.  Well there’s a lot more on the way.  Those are the type of hitters the Giants look for.  “He swings reeeel good.”

 

I think the problem is numbers.  Numbers are to the Giant management as construction plans were to the mechanics in Vietnam or kryptonite to that guy in tights.  They don’t like ‘em; they don’t want ‘em; they don’t understand ‘em.  As the Mexican bandit said,”We don’ need no stinkin’ numbers!”

 

When Giant scouts look at pitchers prior to the draft they can see which ones are hopelessly wild and pass on them.  But hitters who are hopelessly wild swingers they seem to love.  “See that?  The pitch was a foot over his head and he hit it out.  He swings reeeel good.”  Him they sign.

 

But the numbers would tell the story.  They need to hire a few numbers freaks.  And they work cheap.  There are basement geeks reading this right now who would work for practically nothing.  Maybe one payroll check which they would frame and never cash.

 

Take this guy Dominquez, mentioned above.  He was the highest position player signed from this year’s draft.  His line at Louisville U. in his last college season was 345/441/698.  See anything wrong with that?  Okay here’s your last clue: he was hit by the pitcher 14 times in about 305 PA.  If the red flag hasn’t gone up for you, then you’re not a numbers geek.  He hit 25 homers and drew only 32 walks including intentional walks.  I couldn’t get the figures on intentional walk but he probably hit more homers than he drew non-intentional walks.  Those numbers are freakish.  But, “He hits reeeel good.”

 

The guy is a hacker.  Very likely that’s a wasted draft pick and wasted money because hackers seem to be hackers for life.  Any numbers geek could have seen that.  So how did he do in his first season in the pros?  In rookie and low A he had 263/311/456.  Funny how that looks somewhat like they hit on the parent club.  That is no coincidence.



This FanPost is reader-generated, and it does not necessarily reflect the views of McCovey Chronicles. If the author uses filler to achieve the minimum word requirement, a moderator may edit the FanPost for his or her own amusement.

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Poll:
Is Walter Guest a real person, or a composite character?

Wisconsin: Famous for dairy, Ryan Rohlinger and not much else.

by Scottsdale on Nov 1, 2009 5:01 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

What am I missing?

Why wouldn’t it be a real person?

Still backing Notgardo, wheresoever he may wander. (Don't forget to wriiiite!)

by tk on Nov 1, 2009 6:41 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I mean what is it? The terse writing style? The disparate life experiences? That happens. All the years you ride out, you have to ride them back in. So to speak.

Still backing Notgardo, wheresoever he may wander. (Don't forget to wriiiite!)

by tk on Nov 1, 2009 6:43 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

The disparate life experiences is what I was going off of, especially the way they all seem to ground themselves in some snapshot from the past that you could pull from some sort of “that was the decade when…” retrospective.

Wisconsin: Famous for dairy, Ryan Rohlinger and not much else.

by Scottsdale on Nov 2, 2009 1:31 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Define composite.

by Walter Guest on Nov 1, 2009 5:07 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Only one?

You wish you were named Frederick Deshaun...

by dregarx on Nov 1, 2009 5:42 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Nice post.

Giant Dirtbags: John Bowker, Steve Hammond. MIA List: Todd Jennings, Brian Anderson
Jeremy Affeldt induces DP's

by Giant among Angels on Nov 1, 2009 6:58 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Agreed.

It’s a shame that keen insight has nothing more positive to work with.

"I don’t know why people feel the need to come up with reasons 'why' for everything..." - Missing Barry

by victor frankenstein on Nov 1, 2009 8:13 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Cool stuff.

Merkin Valdez? Manuel Mateo? A rose by any other name...

by rotorueter on Nov 1, 2009 8:11 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Wait, weren’t you the guy who supported the re-signing of Sabean??

Merkin Valdez? Manuel Mateo? A rose by any other name...

by rotorueter on Nov 1, 2009 8:12 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

He Was Just "A" Not "The" Guy

Others including me supported the re-signing of Brian Sabean and Bruce Bochy. I guess it didn’t occu ot you that we could see and understand Brian Sabean’s weaknesses and still support re-signing him.

by giantsrainman on Nov 1, 2009 8:47 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

No, that didn’t occur to me, and now that you’ve suggested it, it doesn’t make any sense. Sabean was successful purely because he lucked out on Bonds, Kent, and Schmidt. Most of his other acquisitions were terrible. He can’t figure out how to make good trades or signings, and the only thing sort of right with the organization is the pitching which I’m firmly convinced is mostly not him but Tidrow. So what, exactly, does he bring?

by quincy0191 on Nov 1, 2009 11:38 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Being as how Sabean even credits Tidrow for beig such a good scout of pitchers, I think even Sabean agrees with you.

Seriously, I wasn’t morally opposed to Sabean coming back next year, just mostly against it… Then he traded Tim Alderson for Freddy Sanchez, and I changed my vote to “DO NOT WANT BACK!”

I'm thinking but nothing's happening.

by JRPhillips on Nov 2, 2009 9:25 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

The post above is in no way consistent with a view that supports the continued employment of Brian Sabean.

Merkin Valdez? Manuel Mateo? A rose by any other name...

by rotorueter on Nov 2, 2009 7:05 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Sabean is an eyeball scout. He only believes what he sees. He doesn’t trust numbers. "Don’t talk numbers to me, I know what I see." He only hires eyeball scouts.

This is why I want the three GMs.

by quincy0191 on Nov 1, 2009 11:38 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Tying things up in a committee doesn’t seem like a great plan, though.

I'm thinking but nothing's happening.

by JRPhillips on Nov 2, 2009 9:26 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Good points about the poor walk numbers up and down the organization, although there are a few lately that have been more patient, like Posey, Gillaspie, and the new improved Bowker. By the way, Chris Dominguez was not the highest position player drafted. It was Tommy Joseph.

No Edgar, it's not your fault, it's the fault of the idiot that plays you

by rxmeister on Nov 2, 2009 6:28 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

B _ _ _ _ _ _s bias

I read that as “Chris Martinez was not the tallest position player drafted.”

"I don’t know why people feel the need to come up with reasons 'why' for everything..." - Missing Barry

by victor frankenstein on Nov 2, 2009 10:17 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

what was he high on?

Bonds stands alone.

Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants

by nostocksjustbonds on Nov 2, 2009 12:13 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Good post! I think your “eyeball” description is right on target.

"The part of the roster where most of the money is spent, though, is on free agents and guys acquired through trade — guys Sabean did play a big role in acquiring. And they are not good. When you get 2/5 of a pitching rotation for free, you would think you could do better with $76 million than to field the league’s worst offense."
-Taliesin September, 2009

by Lyle on Nov 2, 2009 6:33 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

So, now the use of “numbers” comes down to being able to read how many walks a player has? This is the finely honed stat analysis that Sabean can’t master? What a boatload of crap. Sabean has his faults, but not knowing how many walks a given player has worked in the course of a season is not one of them.

I should hope that everyone, at this point, knows it takes both eyeballs and stats, along with just knowing your players – or can you tell me which stat tells you that your catcher is going to kick your trainer in the balls? – to have any basic understanding of a team.

by Sayhey on Nov 2, 2009 7:28 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Sorry, I should modify that to say “well-trained eyeballs” and “knowledgeable statistical analysis.”

by Sayhey on Nov 2, 2009 7:50 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I believe it’s more a concern of not understanding the value of a walk than not being able to see how many walks a player has.

I'm thinking but nothing's happening.

by JRPhillips on Nov 2, 2009 9:31 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Or not placing enough value on the number of walks taken

"We're in this thing!" My adopted Giant: "Raptor Jesus" Guzman, "Sweet Jesus" Guzman and Jesus H. Guzman.

by Goofus on Nov 2, 2009 12:19 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Isn’t that what I said meant?

Yes, that’s it exactly.

I'm thinking but nothing's happening.

by JRPhillips on Nov 2, 2009 3:07 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

It’s just one example, but it’s what the 09 Giants were worst at – getting on base – and all evidence (see discussions of productive outs, moving the runner over and being aggressive/gamertastic) suggests that SaBochean don’t see it as a problem. And why were the Giants terrible at getting on base? They never walked. They also employ a coach who thinks that walks cheat the game. This is a problem.

No one has suggested that Sabean isn’t a good scout. This post is about Sabean completely ignores statistical analysis of hitters, which even you suggest is important.

Joe Martinez: You are cool.
When it's all said and done, America will be remembered for three things: The Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.

by cornball on Nov 2, 2009 9:50 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I don’t think anyone would argue that the ‘09 Giants were a all-round good offensive team. That includes a horrible team on base %. But perhaps this is because the Giants made a decision to focus on pitching in their minor league development and it shows in both good and bad ways. Perhaps what we are seeing is that young players who don’t have the needed at bats in the minors are being rushed to the majors and don’t have the skills needed yet. Perhaps plate discipline is heavily weighted in having the experience to read many, many types of pitches and knowing the pitchers who you are facing. Having said that, I think the offensive weaknesses of the young position players does stand out, with some notable exceptions (Pablo to be sure, perhaps Nate.)

The question becomes, for me anyway, is the lack of plate discipline a function of youth and inexperience in talented players (even Bonds became a more selective hitter as he grew to understand the game better) or is it something that is fostered in the Giants organization. The use of a handful of yearly walk totals from a handful of Giants prospects tells me nothing useful in trying to determine which is the case. What it isn’t is a trait born in hitters that they are incapable of changing. Give me an organizational total and show me how it relates to other team’s experience; report how the Giants disdain teaching plate discipline throughout their system and how their training is so out of line from what others teach – something I don’t think is true; etc. etc. all of this would be helpful in supporting a thesis of the Giants as disdainful of working walks. The OP’s post, on the other hand, is neither helpful or informative in anyway. It only uses a few examples to stoke the ire of those already convinced Sabean is the stat-hating devil responsible for all the Giants woes.

by Sayhey on Nov 2, 2009 11:34 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Sorry, I should have pointed out the selective totals used in the OPs post instead of just the need for organizational totals as a whole. While it is useful to know Fresno’s totals or the totals of the AZL Giants, it would also be useful to see all of the minor league totals, including ones that may or may not support the OP’s thesis.

by Sayhey on Nov 2, 2009 11:53 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

All teams

Fresno: 427 (PCL avg 482)
Connecticut: 410 (EL avg 479) (Bond: 67)
San Jose: 480 (Cal League avg 461) (Posey: 45 in 80 games, Neal: 65)
Augusta: 388 (SAL avg 407)
Salem-Keizer: 251 (NWL avg 266)
Arizona: 172 (AZL avg 190)

So San Jose was a bit above average; all others below — well below at the top. But it isn’t exactly breaking news that the Giants’ organization does not value walks. Perhaps Posey, Neal and Gillaspie represent a change in that regard. Perhaps.

by taliesin on Nov 2, 2009 12:40 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

It seems to me that Sabes and Bochy know that the team not getting on base enough is a problem, not through their own devices, but from what they’ve been told by others. they simply do not understand what causes the problem or how to deal with it, though you may be right in that they simply might not be convinced that the problem really exists.

Bonds stands alone.

Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants

by nostocksjustbonds on Nov 2, 2009 12:19 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I should hope that everyone, at this point, knows it takes both eyeballs and stats, along with just knowing your players


Oh no, it’s like your trying to mix religion and science! But I totally agree

– or can you tell me which stat tells you that your catcher is going to kick your trainer in the balls?


Ooooh, I know the answer: AJ

My two favorite teams are the Giants, and whomever is playing the Dodgers!

by World Series or Bust on Nov 2, 2009 7:41 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Right player, but which stat should have told Sabean the player he just traded too much prize talent for was bat-shit crazy? None that I know of. Want to yell about how stupid that deal was for Sabes to make? Count me in for carrying the tar and feathers, but not knowing how to read how many walks A.J. had in a year had nothing to do with it.

by Sayhey on Nov 2, 2009 7:57 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I knew about this already and I don’t fault Sabean for not knowing about how AJ got under other teams’s skins. I’m sure he did know all about that aspect of his game. It was widely reported here with A.J.‘s run-ins with the A’s. The problem was in not knowing how destructive he would be to his own team. That’s the type of information that is hard to get at, but is critical to know. Fault Sabes for not finding out that and I agree with you, but fault him for not knowing it from a stat sheet and I’m scratching my head to figure out how that works.

by Sayhey on Nov 2, 2009 11:42 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I just meant the kick in the groin, it was AJ's best talent

My two favorite teams are the Giants, and whomever is playing the Dodgers!

by World Series or Bust on Nov 2, 2009 8:01 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Another side effect of swinging at bad pitches (and A.J. was a perfect example) is hitting into double plays.

If Bochy coached the Warriors Bengie Molina would start every game at PG.

by cybermaldonado on Nov 2, 2009 9:43 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Should the Giants have kept Pierzynski?

Was Sabean more disappointed in Pierzynski’s behavior, or the fact that he didn’t hit .300? That acquisition clearly shows Sabean doesn’t value walks and we just continue to get more evidence as he is “distancing” the team from the Bonds era in more ways than we want. With all of Pierzynski’s faults, I wonder if the Giants would have been better off keeping him. Didn’t they pay about the same salary for Mike Matheny? And didn’t they lose draft picks for Matheny and for Bengie Molina?

by ErodCal on Nov 2, 2009 10:08 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

I'm sure it was mostly the attitude issues.

Although, interestingly, the attitude seems to be considered a plus in a less “laid back” atmosphere.

Sabean was supposedly quite pissed when Pierzynski turned down an extension and forced the team into arbitration (which he won, BTW). There was even a rumor going around that Sabean decided right then that Piersynski would not be returning in the subsequent season.

VAE PVTO DEVS FIO

by Bhaakon on Nov 2, 2009 7:44 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I didn't realize the walks problem in the minors

My depression deepens

"The BB's are out. The BB's are being arseholes to me." - Brian Wilson.

by hairball on Nov 2, 2009 10:24 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

i didn’t know the organizational lack of patience was so pronounced. it is a serious waste of talent and money.

Brian Sabean figures that if he buys enough bottles, one of them is bound to have lightning in it.

by jasomack on Nov 2, 2009 10:37 AM PST reply actions   0 recs


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