Is Freddie Sanchez really worth $8M?
by oldrips on Oct 8, 2009 3:42 PM PDT
133 comments
I think we all know the answer to that question............no, he's not. Sabean went out a traded for him anyway. There is little chance that he is going to admit his mistake of moving Alderson for this injury-riddled quasi-bum. Sabean intimated in his press conference that if he can't get a multi-year deal done with Sanchez, he would exercise the $8M option to bring him back. Good job, Brian. Way to undercut your negotiating leverage there.
Anyway, the pont of this is not to point out the obvious stupidity of our G, but rather to pose the question: IF you're going to spend $8M on a 2nd Baseman, why wouldn't you do it with this guy?
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2009/10/discussion-dan-uggla.html
This FanPost is reader-generated, and it does not necessarily reflect the views of McCovey Chronicles. If the author uses filler to achieve the minimum word requirement, a moderator may edit the FanPost for his or her own amusement.
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Jeebus
Before I can finish reading one FanPost there is aready another
#1 threat to America: Pandas
Also, Tim Lincecum
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by GrahamCrakalaka on Oct 8, 2009 3:45 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
and to answer your question
because he is not Free Agent….
#1 threat to America: Pandas
Also, Tim Lincecum
Adopted Father: Tyler Graham
Official McPokeMaster
Registered Velezbian and supporter of Fredemption
by GrahamCrakalaka on Oct 8, 2009 3:46 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
oooh, but If we did get him
1B: Panda
2nd: Sanchez
3rd: Uggla
SS: Uribe
thats actually a good infield
#1 threat to America: Pandas
Also, Tim Lincecum
Adopted Father: Tyler Graham
Official McPokeMaster
Registered Velezbian and supporter of Fredemption
by GrahamCrakalaka on Oct 8, 2009 3:47 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
With the sadness at hot corner this whole past season in Florida, I’d think they would have considered that themselves. I think Uggla may even be worse defensively there…
by sanfranfreakshow on Oct 8, 2009 3:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Whatever, Sanchez could probably play SS if he really had to
#1 threat to America: Pandas
Also, Tim Lincecum
Adopted Father: Tyler Graham
Official McPokeMaster
Registered Velezbian and supporter of Fredemption
by GrahamCrakalaka on Oct 8, 2009 3:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think I read somewhere
that this was tried on the pirates without success.
I might be completely making things up though.
Why do San Francisco teams insist on having terrible offenses? Frank Gore and Pablo Sandoval can't do it all.
by GiantPain on Oct 8, 2009 3:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He did play some SS, but Jack Wilson was better defensively. Sanchez won the batting crown playing primarily 3B witht he Pirates. They moved him to 2B after that season.
Why isn't Sabean held accountable for leading the Giants into many years of mediocrity???
by oldrips on Oct 8, 2009 3:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ah yes. I don’t like that solution for us. I’d prefer 8.1mil be lining Figgins’ pocket.
by sanfranfreakshow on Oct 8, 2009 4:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sure, why not have him pitch too?
Utter frustration and futility.
by Johnny Disaster on Oct 8, 2009 4:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He’s no Buster Posey.
You can't solve your problems with the same level of thinking that created the problems - Albert Einstein to Brian Sabean
by bgunn on Oct 9, 2009 12:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
with that infield
I’d be temoted to put Uggla at 1st base.
co-dad of IshikaBOOM w/AfDC.
FIRE BOCHY FIRE MOLINA
by kennv on Oct 8, 2009 9:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
typo - sorry.
“tempted to”
co-dad of IshikaBOOM w/AfDC.
FIRE BOCHY FIRE MOLINA
by kennv on Oct 8, 2009 9:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
/demoted
now skeeter, he ain't hurtin' nobody.
by bondo on Oct 10, 2009 5:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
What I’ve been told (I don’t watch a lot of Marlins games, so strictly going on hearsay) is that he has a poor arm, so 3B would seem like a poor position for him. Also he’s awfully short for first base. I think Uggla would have to stay at second unless he could move to the OF. And in the OF his bat doesn’t look quite as shiny.
by taliesin on Oct 8, 2009 4:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Where’s Renteria?
El Presidente Larry Baer's epitaph
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by ResDog on Oct 8, 2009 7:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The obvious answer
Clearly the number one reason to not spend the $8M on Uggla is that besides the $8M you have to give something pretty good up in trade to get him on your roster in the first place. Said trade bait — Madison Bumgarner, almost certainly — is probably worth a lot more than even the $8M.
by taliesin on Oct 8, 2009 3:49 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
That's BS
There’s no way that Bumgarner would move in that deal. You’re talking about a team wanting to move him prior to his arbitartion salry going up. That says a middling prospect to me.
But then again, Sabean might give him the franchise………judging by the way he handled the Sanchez trade.
Why isn't Sabean held accountable for leading the Giants into many years of mediocrity???
by oldrips on Oct 8, 2009 3:51 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
What do we have that would appeal to the Marlins
And wouldn’t crash McC’s servers with outrage?
Why do San Francisco teams insist on having terrible offenses? Frank Gore and Pablo Sandoval can't do it all.
by GiantPain on Oct 8, 2009 3:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have no idea wht the Marlins needs are. You’d have to know that before you could pose some rosterbation. All I know is that I’d rather spend that kind of money on a guy like Uggla than I would with Fred Sanchez.
Why isn't Sabean held accountable for leading the Giants into many years of mediocrity???
by oldrips on Oct 8, 2009 4:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
In a vacuum, yes, but his point is that it’s $8M + whatever you trade.
Utter frustration and futility.
by Johnny Disaster on Oct 8, 2009 4:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I understand that. It’s still better than a powerless, injury prone 32 year old guy.
Why isn't Sabean held accountable for leading the Giants into many years of mediocrity???
by oldrips on Oct 8, 2009 5:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
But you presented it as, we could spend $8M on Sanchez, or $8M on Uggla. In fact, Uggla would cost considerably more; depending on the value of the prospect it would take to get him, it could easily be an additional $8M.
BTW I also don’t think the Giants should sign Sanchez, at least not for $8M.
by taliesin on Oct 8, 2009 5:51 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Huh? Another $8M How do you figure that?
Why isn't Sabean held accountable for leading the Giants into many years of mediocrity???
by oldrips on Oct 8, 2009 5:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think taliesin is referring to the value of a replacement level prospect’s cheap years.
co-dad of IshikaBOOM w/AfDC.
FIRE BOCHY FIRE MOLINA
by kennv on Oct 8, 2009 9:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right
If the Giants trade Bumgarner (as an example), even if he turns out to be a 5th starter type when he’s under team control, that’s worth, say, $15M total over three years (on the FA market), but the team would only pay him about $4M over that time, thus generating a surplus to the team of $11M. That $11M worth of free performance that the Giants would be sacrificing has to be added in to the cost of the trade.
by taliesin on Oct 9, 2009 7:52 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
First of all, Bumgarner would never move in a deal like this, so I don’t understand why he keeps getting brought up. Secondly, this is a salary relief deal as far as the Marlins are concerned, so whatever they get back will either be a middling prospect and\or a young ML player.
Why isn't Sabean held accountable for leading the Giants into many years of mediocrity???
by oldrips on Oct 9, 2009 8:15 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If the Giants trade Bumgarner (as an example),
by sfoakbay on Oct 10, 2009 1:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
B Weezy or whatever the hell he calls himself would be ideal to me.
Matt Cain: throwing complete game shutouts since 06'. No big deal.
by cain1rstballothof on Oct 8, 2009 4:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You'd do wilson for uggla?
Interesting.
Why do San Francisco teams insist on having terrible offenses? Frank Gore and Pablo Sandoval can't do it all.
by GiantPain on Oct 8, 2009 4:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s an interesting concept. However, Wilson is due a hefty raise in arbitration also this year, no?
Why isn't Sabean held accountable for leading the Giants into many years of mediocrity???
by oldrips on Oct 8, 2009 4:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, that’s why it makes sense for us. Wilson would probably be more than the Fish would want to take on though, but figure Uggla’s gonna be about $8, Wilson $4.5.
Matt Cain: throwing complete game shutouts since 06'. No big deal.
by cain1rstballothof on Oct 8, 2009 4:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
In a hearbeat, but I hate Wilson.
Matt Cain: throwing complete game shutouts since 06'. No big deal.
by cain1rstballothof on Oct 8, 2009 4:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I like wilson,
but that’s not to say he couldn’t be easily replaced.
Affedlt, Romo, Runzler, etc…could do pretty much the same stuff.
by kezargiants on Oct 8, 2009 4:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
what?
why do you hate him? anyway, wilson for uggla YES PLZ but it won’t get done. i wish we could do wilson for crawford
fapfapfap
by sfoakbay on Oct 8, 2009 8:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He takes almost as long as Papplebon to throw a pitch; he always seems to walk someone; honestly, I feel like I personally witnessed every one of his blown saves this year and last; he just seems like he’s about to be a bust; the whole christian thing bugs me too.
And his show, wow. I would trade him on that alone if I were a GM.
Matt Cain: throwing complete game shutouts since 06'. No big deal.
by cain1rstballothof on Oct 9, 2009 1:22 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Obviously if the price is right you make the deal, but he has a WHIP of 1.2, BA against .223, strikeout to walk ratio is 3 to 1, he’s in his third season, makes under 500K and is still under team control… yeah, get rid of the bum.
He seems like an incredible douche, admittedly…
Utter frustration and futility.
by Johnny Disaster on Oct 9, 2009 4:38 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wilson is due a hefty raise in arbitration this coming year. He will no longer be cheap. He will probably be around $5M.
Why isn't Sabean held accountable for leading the Giants into many years of mediocrity???
by oldrips on Oct 9, 2009 8:17 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Would still save Fish money, and they seem to appreciate CP. Either way it sounds like Uggla’s being moved.
Matt Cain: throwing complete game shutouts since 06'. No big deal.
by cain1rstballothof on Oct 9, 2009 9:04 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’ll concede that point gladly, I just don’t understand the hatred.
Utter frustration and futility.
by Johnny Disaster on Oct 9, 2009 9:06 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I really can’t explain the “why” part clearly enough without typing for miles, I just don’t enjoy watching Wilson pitch. At all. And I love pitching.
Is there no one that you despise watching?
Matt Cain: throwing complete game shutouts since 06'. No big deal.
by cain1rstballothof on Oct 9, 2009 9:12 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
well,
there is no giant i despise pitching
except maybe justin miller, that LA tattoo bugs the hell out of me
by sfoakbay on Oct 10, 2009 1:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I dread watching Rowand stand in, Reneria anywhere on the field, Molina’s trot on the basepaths, Lewis sit the bench, and Boch’s waddle. I love Roberto Kelly though, he’s a bad ass.
Matt Cain: throwing complete game shutouts since 06'. No big deal.
by cain1rstballothof on Oct 10, 2009 8:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Marlins needs: C, 2B, SP, RP
Matt Cain: throwing complete game shutouts since 06'. No big deal.
by cain1rstballothof on Oct 8, 2009 4:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would love Uggla...
but I can’t see Sabes really pushing to aquire Uggla if he’s really bringing back Sanchez. Uggla is the better player by far though.
Matt Cain: throwing complete game shutouts since 06'. No big deal.
by cain1rstballothof on Oct 8, 2009 4:06 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
By far?
Nah. Uggla is definitely better, but there’s probably 15 runs of difference in their defense. That takes a big chunk out of the difference in the bats. Fangraphs’ WAR, which I realize is only a rough approximation, had Uggla at 2.9 and Sanchez at 2.2 (in a year when Sanchez missed significant playing time with injury).
by taliesin on Oct 8, 2009 4:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
OBP + HR’s + RBI’s. Better by far, especially for what this particular Giants team is needing. I don’t care about Fangraphs.
Matt Cain: throwing complete game shutouts since 06'. No big deal.
by cain1rstballothof on Oct 8, 2009 5:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fangraphs could probably teach you some better stats than those…
The very bad man traded my son...So now I'd like you all to meet my new son, Ryan "Aaron" Garko...Dammit it's just not the same!
by boonitez on Oct 8, 2009 6:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Probably. But Uggla’s pretty certain for a .350 OBP, 30 HR’s, and 90+ RBI’s, that’s what this club needs.
Matt Cain: throwing complete game shutouts since 06'. No big deal.
by cain1rstballothof on Oct 8, 2009 6:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And he’ll play 160 games a season.
Matt Cain: throwing complete game shutouts since 06'. No big deal.
by cain1rstballothof on Oct 8, 2009 6:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It would be nice to have him
but it would take a decent amount of talent to get him. Would it really be worth it to give up prospects for a marginal upgrade at 2nd? A healthy Sanchez can hit for a line of about a .310/.350/.460 line. That would be very ideal for a #2 hitter, which we really need almost as much as a cleanup hitter. He also plays great defense. I know it’s a huge if that he could stay healthy, but if he did, he would be almost as valuable to the team as Uggla at no cost to us. I think we would be much better off doing something like signing Jason Bay and upgrading LF instead. Him and Sanchez together would be much more valuable than Uggla alone.
Also, RBI’s and HR’s are horrible metrics for measuring the value of a hitter. Pablo only had 90 RBI’s and 25 homers this year. Would you say that makes Uggla as good of a hitter as him?
The very bad man traded my son...So now I'd like you all to meet my new son, Ryan "Aaron" Garko...Dammit it's just not the same!
by boonitez on Oct 8, 2009 11:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
C’mon, HR’s and RBI’s are a bad way to evaluate a hitter? You gotta be shitting me? At 1 full season, of pure hacking, I don’t know, Pablo’s definitely funner to watch, but I wouldn’t necessarily hand the award to him. I love Pablo as much as the next guy, and sure, hopefully he developes into a premiere hitter for the long haul, but Uggla’s 3 straight 30 HR+ seasons with consistant 350-ish OBP is no joke. And it wouldn’t take major prospects to get him. I would start with B Weezy, and F.Lew. If not, pass. Don’t try and talk me into some statistical anyalysis to persuade me to believe that Freddy freakin’ Sanchez can hold a candle to Dan Uggla, because he can not. A 2B who plays 160 games a year and puts up Uggla numbers is no Freddy Sanchez.
Matt Cain: throwing complete game shutouts since 06'. No big deal.
by cain1rstballothof on Oct 9, 2009 1:06 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
…You are quite unreasonable, to say the least. Freddy Freakin Sanchez can do more than hold a candle to Dan Uggla. Remember the 08’ All Star Game? That’s why Sanchez is pretty close to as good as Uggla. He doesn’t make 3 errors in a game. Uggla is definitely a better hitter; that’s not what I was arguing. But Uggla fields like he doesn’t own a glove.
And it’s pretty astounding that you think Uggla’s better than Pablo. Pablo’s OPS was about .950. Uggla’s was just over .800. That’s the difference between elite and pretty good. If you think Uggla’s better, it’s because you’re a baseball newb.
And yes. Homers and RBI’s are a completely horrible metric for evaluating hitters. Would you consider Chris Young of the DBacks an elite hitter? He hit 32 one year. How about Bill Hall? He’s a few seasons removed from a 35 homer season. Raul Ibanez? RBI’s are a horrible metric because they have nothing to do with the hitter. It depends more on the offense around the hitter. If you have shit for an offense like the Giants did, it’s very very hard to get that many because nobody is ever on base. If you play for the Yankees, it’s very easy to get a lot because everyone is always on base.
The very bad man traded my son...So now I'd like you all to meet my new son, Ryan "Aaron" Garko...Dammit it's just not the same!
by boonitez on Oct 9, 2009 9:07 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t think Uggla’s comparable to Pablo yet.
I realize you need runners on base to drive them in, thus OBP is what this team needs.
When you have a .350 or better OBP compared to a .305 -ish OBP, and 30+ HR’s compared to 6-8, from the same position, and one guy is as fragile as they come while the other is as durable as they come, I see no need to even compare. Uggla is by far and away supperior.
And I find it histarical you reference the all-star game as Uggla’s fielding is shit, Uggla can handle 2B, Franchez looked like a wizard there himself this year.
Oh, and I’m not a newb to the game of baseball.
Matt Cain: throwing complete game shutouts since 06'. No big deal.
by cain1rstballothof on Oct 9, 2009 10:39 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
My bad. That was a dick thing to say, I apologize. But Uggla’s fielding isn’t good. UZR had him at -10.5 this year. In contrast, Sanchez was at 6.7. And he didn’t play the full season. I understand our offense needs significant upgrades and more power and OBP, but that doesn’t necessarily make it a good idea to significantly downgrade the defense of one of the more important defensive positions. As many runs as Uggla could drive in over Sanchez, he could also give many of them back with his crap defense. I’m not saying Uggla isn’t better than Sanchez, but I strongly disagree with him being ‘far and away superior.’
Also, home runs aren’t the only measure of a hitter’s power. I also understand that Uggla hits far more homers than Sanchez. But Sanchez hits a boatload of doubles. Sanchez hit more doubles than Uggla in about 2/3 the games Uggla played. Uggla is definitely the better offensive player, but Sanchez is still pretty good. I’m not disagreeing with the notion that we need a player with Uggla’s offensive production. You’re right; the team really needs something like that. I just think it would be easier and probably smarter to find a bat like his, or better, that plays at a corner OF position where defense is a little more negligible.
The very bad man traded my son...So now I'd like you all to meet my new son, Ryan "Aaron" Garko...Dammit it's just not the same!
by boonitez on Oct 9, 2009 8:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
What about moving Uggla to 1rst? I don’t know if it will be easy to find a corner OF with that production this offseason. We know Uggla can be had, and I don’t think it would cost as much as most think. I’d like a right handed power bat in RF, ideally, but who’s available? Dye? Cameron? Byrd? No thanks. Idon’t know if Willingham could be pried, but he would be perfect, and sadly enough Alderson would have too.
Any ideas?
Matt Cain: throwing complete game shutouts since 06'. No big deal.
by cain1rstballothof on Oct 10, 2009 10:00 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would like the idea of Uggla at first. I just don’t like the idea of obtaining him and giving up prospects just to replace Sanchez. I would like the idea of acquiring Willingham, and maybe either Milton Bradley (with some salary absorbed by the Cubs) or Jonny Gomes, who might be a non-tender candidate. Neither of them are as good as Uggla, but they would probably come a lot cheaper prospect-wise. I also still like the idea of getting into a bidding war for one of Jason Bay and Matt Holliday.
The very bad man traded my son...So now I'd like you all to meet my new son, Ryan "Aaron" Garko...Dammit it's just not the same!
by boonitez on Oct 10, 2009 4:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Gomes will be a Red I bet. What do you suppose it would take to get Willingham?
Bay/Holliday would be sweet, but I’d be shocked to see the cheap ass investers up the payroll that much. Cosidering neither of the two can handle RF, especially at AT&T, the more I think about it the more I like Bay. For the Giants needs, he’s got more pop, great OBP, and is a better base stealer. I’d love Bay, but the Sox will most likely keep him.
Matt Cain: throwing complete game shutouts since 06'. No big deal.
by cain1rstballothof on Oct 10, 2009 8:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not to pick on you but has any one put an over all plus/minus chart on Bay? To me Bay and Scutro are on the bubble on if they would really be worth while getting. I think of a Panda, Renetera, & Bay left side defensively from the 5th inning on and my desire for Bay in 2010 cools off very fast.
Who’s brain did you bring me?
Brain SabeanOranother.
by daveinexile on Oct 11, 2009 8:28 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t know what the “stats” show on Bay’s D this year, or any year for that matter, and while I’ll be the first to say he isn’t BLB of early, he’s no Adam Dunn either. And he’s got a good arm too. From what I’ve seen of him he looks capable. I’d love to have Bay in LF. And Pablo looked fine at 3B. Renteria’s definitely sketchy though.
Matt Cain: throwing complete game shutouts since 06'. No big deal.
by cain1rstballothof on Oct 11, 2009 12:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hmm Bay is rather Dunn like. He is a smart player and has figured out how to use the Green monster but even in Pitt his glove work was slipping. In L.F. Bays UZR/150 the last 3 years is -11.4, -18.4, -8.7 ( once in the smaller LF of Boston) were Dunn’s UZR/150 in LF the last 3 years is -21.1, -20.1, -28.4 ( with much smaller amount of innings played). Put that (Bay) with Renteria and Panda on the left side and we might very well have a second triples alley. Oh joy.
Who’s brain did you bring me?
Brain SabeanOranother.
by daveinexile on Oct 11, 2009 8:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
.350/.460????
He had one year that good (actually better). One. His career line is .334/.417 and he’ll be 32 next year.
I guess if “can” = “it wouldn’t be impossible to hope that he can”
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
-------
PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game currently in early planning stages.
by zenbitz on Oct 9, 2009 11:15 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Shuffle the infield
1st: Pandoval;
2nd: Uggla
SS: Uribe
3rd: Sanchez
Sanchez in his last two seasons as a third baseman (2005 & 2006) had good to great seasons with the glove at the hot corner (28.3 UZR/150 over 55 games in 2005 and 11.1 UZR/150 over 99 games in 2006). However that was 3 three to four years ago, and him being able to return is questionable, but not out of the question.
by OmahaGiants on Oct 8, 2009 7:40 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
actually
$8M for Sanchez is pretty reasonable, especially since you only have him on 1 year contract, and he’s likely to be worse in 2011.
Sanchez is no all star (except if he hits .344) but he’s an average player (2 wins over replacement). $8-10M/year is what average players cost on the free agent market.
Uggla would be pretty nice, but I don’t really see us making a deal for him. I mean would you trade Sergio Romo for him? I don’t see the Marlins taking our cast-offs.
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
-------
PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game currently in early planning stages.
by zenbitz on Oct 8, 2009 7:57 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Yes, He Is.
According to Fangraphs Freddy was worth $10.1M in 2009 inspite of his injuries unfortunately most of the healthy time was with the Pirates while most of the injured time with the Giants, Going back further, Sanchez has averaged being worth $10.2M per year over the last five seasons. There is zero rational reason to expect that he will not be able to continue this level of performance in 2010.
http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=1624&position=2B
by giantsrainman on Oct 8, 2009 8:02 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Or fangraphs is wrong.
El Presidente Larry Baer's epitaph
"Nothing important ever happened without me."
by ResDog on Oct 8, 2009 8:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s not so much that Fangraphs is wrong as that assigning an absolute, context-free value to what a player is “worth” is an exercise that confuses things more than it clarifies them.
The assumption is that on the free-agent market, teams have been paying X dollars for Y runs above replacement level. But the free-agent market is a wild distortion of the actual salaries that players draw. If you pay your players an average $5 million per “win,” you’d better have a $200 million budget if you want to have a prayer of making the playoffs.
For a team with the Giants’ salary constraints, spending 9% of the budget on one average player like Sanchez gets them nowhere. They need to find bargains and stars.
by Evan on Oct 9, 2009 7:23 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Adopted Giant Darren "Speedy" Ford. Said by Andrew Baggarly to be the fastest minor league player and the best defensive outfielder in the Giants Organization. Now playing for your San Jose Giants.
by monta101 on Oct 8, 2009 9:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You know the old saying “there are lies, damned lies, and statistics.” Fangraphs opinion of Freddy Sanchez is Exhibit A of this.
Why isn't Sabean held accountable for leading the Giants into many years of mediocrity???
by oldrips on Oct 8, 2009 8:32 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
In other words statistics are correct when they prove your point and wrong when they disagree with you?
Proud parent of Waldis Joaquin!
by GiantFan on Oct 9, 2009 2:07 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
YES!
El Presidente Larry Baer's epitaph
"Nothing important ever happened without me."
by ResDog on Oct 9, 2009 8:00 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
NO, but one must exercise judgment in evaluating statistics. Obviously, FSanchez is not worth what Fangraphs says he’s worth. I don;t need a statistic to evaluate that.
Why isn't Sabean held accountable for leading the Giants into many years of mediocrity???
by oldrips on Oct 9, 2009 8:19 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, he probably was. As a Pirate. Almost all of Sanchez’s value last year is based on how he played with the Pirates (and that was quite well.)
He was worth only 0.3 WAR as a Giant (and almost all of that is tied into a SSS defensive performance.)
The context, of course, is that you have to wonder if he actually still has that 2.6 WAR from the first four months of the season left in him, with the injuries having piled up all year and his age continuing to advance. If he does, he’s worth $8 million. if he doesn’t…
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
by jponry on Oct 9, 2009 8:30 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
wait, he was only worth 2.2 WAR total this year. so, like, adjust my post based on that however you will.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
by jponry on Oct 9, 2009 8:34 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
but yeah
I really don’t get how you can say how Fangraphs is “wrong” about Sanchez. They’re not saying he was worth 10 million as a Giant and if you think he didn’t play well as a Pirate, idk what to say.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
by jponry on Oct 9, 2009 8:35 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m saying they are assigning too much $$ for WAR. Juan Uribe was worth $13 million this year? Andres Torres was worth $8.6 million? Tony Gwynn Jr $13.2? Say what?
El Presidente Larry Baer's epitaph
"Nothing important ever happened without me."
by ResDog on Oct 9, 2009 8:53 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
What???
Matt Cain: throwing complete game shutouts since 06'. No big deal.
by cain1rstballothof on Oct 9, 2009 8:58 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think you’re underestimating the cost that players have in free agency. To calculate the amount of $$ per WAR they use the total salaries given out in free agency and the total WAR of the players signed. That is how much teams are willing to give up per WAR in free agency, I’m not sure how you can argue against that aside from any non-linearity issues.
Proud parent of Waldis Joaquin!
by GiantFan on Oct 9, 2009 9:00 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m not trying to bash Fangraphs, but in this particular statistic they are misleading. If it’s only based off of free agency and not on league minimum players or arbitration players then they need to go back to the drawing board. Teams aren’t willing to give up that type of money for free agents because there are other cheaper options out there.
El Presidente Larry Baer's epitaph
"Nothing important ever happened without me."
by ResDog on Oct 9, 2009 9:41 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The reason they only use free agency is that’s the whole point of the statistic, how much the player is worth if he were a free agent. It doesn’t include pre-arbitration or arbitration players because they’re not readily available talent. And that’s what we’re talking about here, the value the player provides the team compared his monetary cost. It basically a comparative measure for how effective a move is in free-agency. It’s not meant to be a tool for comparing the different methods of obtaining talent (free-agency, draft, trades, etc).
Proud parent of Waldis Joaquin!
by GiantFan on Oct 9, 2009 9:52 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
In other words, it’s a relatively meaningless statistic. I’m glad we settled that.
Why isn't Sabean held accountable for leading the Giants into many years of mediocrity???
by oldrips on Oct 9, 2009 10:50 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
no, it's quite accurate
in prediction how much it will cost to sign a +2 WAR free agent!
Since we don’t HAVE a +2 WAR player (Frandsen???) in our minor league system… how else would we get one?
The only opportunity to be gained is that if you pick a player that the MARKET thinks is <2 WAR but is actually worth more (this is what moneyball is all about)
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
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PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game currently in early planning stages.
by zenbitz on Oct 9, 2009 11:19 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No it’s a concept every front office will use (albeit indirectly). I’m really failing to see the issue here, it’s simply a transformation of WAR onto a monetary scale. And it’s not a theoretical conversion either, it’s one based on exactly what happens in free agency. If you’ve got an issue with it you’ve really just got an issue with WAR itself.
All it does is take how many wins above replacement a player is, multiply it by how much teams pay per WAR in free agency to give you how much the player is worth is free agency. Where’s the problem?
Proud parent of Waldis Joaquin!
by GiantFan on Oct 10, 2009 3:54 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s easy to say that. For instance, would you rather have Orlando Hudson at $4M or Sanchez at $8M? The answer is obvious.
Why isn't Sabean held accountable for leading the Giants into many years of mediocrity???
by oldrips on Oct 9, 2009 8:55 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Of course the answer is obvious, I’m not sure what relevance the question has though? Orlando Hudson was paid more than Freddy Sanchez this year and will be probably be paid more next year as well.
Proud parent of Waldis Joaquin!
by GiantFan on Oct 9, 2009 9:07 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I love Fangraphs but that WAR → $$ thing is misguided.
Please hit better, Randy Winn.
by oldjacket on Oct 9, 2009 9:10 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
BINGO!
That’s the bottom line.
Why isn't Sabean held accountable for leading the Giants into many years of mediocrity???
by oldrips on Oct 9, 2009 9:37 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I will bet you 1 beer
than Freddie Sanchez – whereever he signs – gets at least $7M/year
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
-------
PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game currently in early planning stages.
by zenbitz on Oct 9, 2009 11:20 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
My problem with the WAR → $$ is that there’s no right way to put a price on single season’s worth of production. So much of what goes into a player’s salary is based on off field factors: anticipated future production, relative positional scarcity in the FA market, the signing team’s perceived closeness to the playoffs and on and on . . .
Please hit better, Randy Winn.
by oldjacket on Oct 9, 2009 11:51 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Really? Orlando Hudson, a much better player than Freddie Sanchez, signed for $4M last year and was lucky to get that deal at the 11th hour? What makes you think that the market has dobled over the last year for powerless, injury-prone 2nd baseman?
Why isn't Sabean held accountable for leading the Giants into many years of mediocrity???
by oldrips on Oct 9, 2009 1:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You Are fogeting About The Bonus Money Which He Earned
Orlando Hudson 2b
1 year/$3.38M (2009)
1 year/$3.38M (2009)
signed by LA Dodgers as a free agent 2/20/09
$0.38M signing bonus (deferred, without interest)
09:$3M
$4.62M in performance bonuses: $0.15M each for 150, 175 PAs; $0.2M each for 200, 225, 250, 275, 300 PAs; $0.25M each for 325, 350, 375, 400, 425, 450, 475, 500, 525, 550, 575 PAs; 10,000 for each PA 576-632
bonuses beyond 550 PAs deferred without interest
Hudson to donate $25,000 to club charity
http://mlbcontracts.blogspot.com/2005/01/los-angeles-dodgers.html
With his 631 PAs Orlando Hudson earned $8.56M compared to Freddy’s Sanchez’s $6.1M for his 489 PAs.
by giantsrainman on Oct 9, 2009 6:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Opps - He Actually Earned $7.99M In His 631 PAs
One PA short of making the maximum $8M he could have under his contract. I at first misread thinking he got to the $8M figure with just 575 PAs and got another $10K for each PA after that.
by giantsrainman on Oct 9, 2009 6:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Whoa whoa
You’re making it sound like you have a background in economics or something.
/oh wait
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
GET THAT VORP AND WHIP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!
by baetown415 on Oct 9, 2009 11:45 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No such thing as a bad one-year contract?
I just think there are even other FA options at 2B. Isn’t Felipe Lopez available, although Sabean can’t refer to him as a former Batting Champ. Uggla would be nice, defensive flaws and all. I’m sure Alderson and Barnes would have been enough to get him. Would you trade J. Sanchez?
It still seems Fangraphs over values defense, which is why F. Sanchez is worth so much. (Heck, Randy Winn earned close to his salary!) Although F. Sanchez wasn’t worth much in 2008. I just think the injuries would completely scare off any team from giving him much.
by ErodCal on Oct 8, 2009 8:57 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Uggla is a big dropoff in the field.
Uggla will probably hit you 30 homers, walk a bit more than our current giants, but hit about 240 or so, and I can see giants fans really getting on him for all the outs. If he can up his average and field just a little better he could become the next Jeff Kent, but as bad as Kent was in the field he was better than Uggla, and he could hit for a higher average. The Marlins want cheap talent, nothing expensive.
by bradleybear on Oct 8, 2009 9:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
"I can see giants fans really getting on him for all the outs"
He makes less outs than Freddy.
by theimmortalbenard on Oct 9, 2009 6:30 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
lets look at potential lineup with uggla
torres/velez outfield lead off
Schierholtz outfield
Pablo third
Uggla second base
Posey Catcher
Uribe ss
Bowker outfield
ishi/garko first
by bradleybear on Oct 8, 2009 9:08 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
If Sanchez does come back next year
hopefully the team gives him a jersey which actually fits him.
by Tim LinCyYoung on Oct 8, 2009 10:37 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
That’s why he’s so slow. Friction and resistance.
Matt Cain: throwing complete game shutouts since 06'. No big deal.
by cain1rstballothof on Oct 9, 2009 1:25 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ok I’d give up J sanchez and Velez for Uggla
by skunk5150 on Oct 8, 2009 11:28 PM PDT via mobile reply actions 0 recs
Torres/Velez or Velez/Torres LF
Sanchez 3B
Pablito 1B
Uggla 2B
Uribe SS
Hermida RF
Posey C
Rowand CF
With Martinez/Pucetas as 5SP, and a Romo/Affeldt/Runzler committee closer, that’s about 93 Million give or take arbs.
Doable, and a major upgrade. Bumgarner comes up after Martinez/Pucetas wheels fall off.
Matt Cain: throwing complete game shutouts since 06'. No big deal.
by cain1rstballothof on Oct 9, 2009 1:14 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
no lineup with Torres/Velez leading off is going to be worth a crap.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
by jponry on Oct 9, 2009 8:30 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would be willing to concede a leadoff Torres/Velez platoon if they are doing it at CF, and we have good players at the corners.
Merkin Valdez? Manuel Mateo? A rose by any other name...
by rotorueter on Oct 9, 2009 8:35 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
For example, this could be acceptable if it were at all likely:
Velez/Torres-CF
Sanchez-2B
Sandoval-3B
Holliday-LF
Garko-1B
Posey-C
Bowker/Milton Bradley-RF
Uribe-SS
Merkin Valdez? Manuel Mateo? A rose by any other name...
by rotorueter on Oct 9, 2009 8:37 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed but the Giants are too cheap for Holliday, even though he’s exactly what they should be seeking.
Matt Cain: throwing complete game shutouts since 06'. No big deal.
by cain1rstballothof on Oct 9, 2009 9:01 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Torres/Velez OR Velez Torres LF
Context, people. More context is good. Less context is bad. If you're willing to be reductive, then you're willing to be wrong.
by howtheyscored on Oct 9, 2009 9:22 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
to restate
pretty much every possible lineup with someone other than Torres/Velez leading off would be better.
People hate on Rowand… but his OBPs going to be better than Velez’ next year.
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
-------
PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game currently in early planning stages.
by zenbitz on Oct 9, 2009 11:22 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Defensively, I'm OK with Torres in CF
But Velolez?
Why do San Francisco teams insist on having terrible offenses? Frank Gore and Pablo Sandoval can't do it all.
by GiantPain on Oct 9, 2009 8:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Firstly, yes there’s a good chance that Sanchez would be worth $8M. He’s been worth more than that every season bar one so whilst it’s not guaranteed there’s a good chance he will be.
Would i rather Uggla to Sanchez? Yes, i would, although the difference between the two is being well-overplayed. Uggla isn’t a free agent though and would cost a lot in return. I’m guessing they wouldn’t trade him unless we offered Sanchez/Bumgarner (they probably wouldn’t want Wilson as he’s soon to get expensive as well).
Would i rather have Uggla or would i rather have Sanchez (or one of the other free-agent 2B) & what it’d cost to acquire him? I’d much rather have the latter.
Proud parent of Waldis Joaquin!
by GiantFan on Oct 9, 2009 2:06 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
huh?
worth $8M? no team is going to pay that much for damaged goods. The injury which took him out for basically the entire season wasn’t even related to the known injury.
by Tim LinCyYoung on Oct 9, 2009 2:20 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Depends on your definition of worth. If worth means “is he going to perform well enough to justify his salary” then yes there’s a decent chance that he’ll be worth $8M. If worth means “is that his value on the free agency market” then no, he may not have that much value. Of course, if it’s only a 1 year deal then he’d probably get a decent salary or he may be able to get that in an incentive laden deal.
Proud parent of Waldis Joaquin!
by GiantFan on Oct 9, 2009 2:50 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
how can you say that an injury prone guy who a team traded away a good player for to get almost nothing out of them is going to perform well enough to justify the salary?
don’t get me wrong, i liked Franchez and I’d like him back on the Giants, but he in no way, shape or form is worth $8 mill after last season.
by Tim LinCyYoung on Oct 9, 2009 2:56 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The fact that we traded for him has no relevance on his future worth and his performance for the Giants has very little relevance given the small sample sizes.
The simple fact is that Sanchez has been worth more than $8M every season bar one (including last season, injuries and performance for the Giants included). That doesn’t mean he is going to be worth that next season but it hardly takes a stretch of the imagination to see that he could well be worth that.
Proud parent of Waldis Joaquin!
by GiantFan on Oct 9, 2009 4:12 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
his performance for the giants is going to have an effect on his market value. it doesn’t matter how good his performances have been in prior seasons, when you become injury prone like he was this year you don’t make big bucks. you’re too much of a liability and nobody is going to spend $8 mill a season for that.
by Tim LinCyYoung on Oct 9, 2009 4:19 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
His performance as a Giant will have a pretty negligible effect, as most competent GM’s aren’t influenced by a 100 AB sample size. His injuries will obviously have a big effect and will cut his contract offers. That effect will be reduced if we’re just talking about a 1 year deal as the risk is reduced. And i agreed with you that it’s unlikely that someone will pay him $8M (unless it’s incentive based)
Proud parent of Waldis Joaquin!
by GiantFan on Oct 9, 2009 4:57 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You’re assuming that we have a competent GM. That’s your first miscalculation. Your second one is that someone is likely to give him $8M………Brian Sabean.
Why isn't Sabean held accountable for leading the Giants into many years of mediocrity???
by oldrips on Oct 9, 2009 8:23 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
What would you guys be OK with the Giants paying for Sanchez? Based on whatever you want to base it on. Personally I don’t believe you can let fangraphs dictate the worth of bums like Sanchez. I think guaranteeing him a base salary above 4 M/yr, w/incentives to, say, 6.5 M/yr and absolutely no more. If another team wants him more so be it. Especially now, with the available 2B’s.
Matt Cain: throwing complete game shutouts since 06'. No big deal.
by cain1rstballothof on Oct 9, 2009 8:55 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well as much as you may believe Sabean’s not a competent GM, even he’s not discounting Sanchez based on his 100AB sample with the Giants.
Well Sabean isn’t going to give him $8M in free agency as he’d just pick up his option instead. But semantics aside, we’ll see what we end up doing with regards to Sanchez and make a judgement then.
Proud parent of Waldis Joaquin!
by GiantFan on Oct 9, 2009 8:56 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Uhhh.......
….you realize, of course, that his option is for $8M, right?
Why isn't Sabean held accountable for leading the Giants into many years of mediocrity???
by oldrips on Oct 9, 2009 9:38 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, obviously the effect is the same, i was just being a pedant because when i was talking about what he’d get in free agency i was talking about teams other than us.
Proud parent of Waldis Joaquin!
by GiantFan on Oct 9, 2009 9:43 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Knee
Sanchez has a bad knee that’s been downplayed by the team… He’s been playing on torn cartilage for way too long. I don’t think he’ll be 100% ever again.
by SFGfanatic on Oct 10, 2009 2:19 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Weed.
Matt Cain: throwing complete game shutouts since 06'. No big deal.
by cain1rstballothof on Oct 10, 2009 8:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oops, meant to type Werd.
Matt Cain: throwing complete game shutouts since 06'. No big deal.
by cain1rstballothof on Oct 10, 2009 8:44 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Suuuuuure.
I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
Mr. F! | comics | art | New Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory
by Natto on Oct 10, 2009 9:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe you should lighten up on the werd.
Utter frustration and futility.
by Johnny Disaster on Oct 11, 2009 6:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I will.
Matt Cain: throwing complete game shutouts since 06'. No big deal.
by cain1rstballothof on Oct 11, 2009 10:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
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