Sad to say, we will not be competitive in 2010
by foothillsfan on Oct 6, 2009 10:09 AM PDT
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This was a great year. I loved watching "meaningful" games in September, and my lovely wife now finds baseball entertaining, thanks to Panda and Eugenio and Timmy. But pennant contenders? Not for a while.
There are no quality hitters besides Pablo, and there are serious offensive deficiencies at every other position. I will probly be more optimistic around March, but now I think that Renteria is old, slow, and coming back from surgery. Sanchez younger but likewise, if they sign him. Uribe was declining several consecutive years before his recent rally, and may bolt for more money. Who's catching?--Whiteside as of now. As for the 3 gaps in the outfield--
On MCC somebody noted that all 5 Colorado outfielders were better than any SF outfielder. After I realized how true this was (any of Dexter Fowler, Carlos Gonzales, Spilborghs, Hawpe, and Seth Smith would become an immediate starter if we had him), I wondered about other teams. Using just OPS, and looking at our baseline of: Torres 876 Lewis 738 Rowand 738 Velez 708 (757 after allstar) Scheierholz 702 Winn 671
the Brewers field Braun 937, Cameron 795 Hart 753 plus Catalanotto 728 and young Gerut 654
Atlanta has young guys--M Diaz 878 McClouth 788 Brandon Jones 778 at age 25, Church 722, fading Garret Anderson 705
Cubbies--Sam Fuld 821, Fukudome 796, Milton Bradley 775 gone, Reed Johnson 742 plus Haufpair 727 and Soriano injured
Cards have Matt Holliday 1023 Ludwick 775 Cody Rasmus 714, Duncan dropping 687
the LA Bums--Manny 949, Ethier 869, Kemp 842, Xavier Paul 814 pricey Juan Pierre 757
and the Phillies send out Ibanez, Werth, and Victorino, all over 800 as is Ben Francisco. So none of our outfielders would start for any other good team. Those teams could send us their 4th or 5th best and he would start here and bat 3, 4, or 5. Too many holes to fill for 2010, folks. Let's think farther ahead, when Thomas Neal and his mates can help. I will enjoy watching Torres and Velez run the bases meanwhile. Sorry I can't get "the jump" to operate here on Chrome.
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Sad to know that absolutely nothing is going to happen between now and Opening Day.
I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
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probably stuff will happen. I was just trying to ease the pain when nothing significant happens. Since we are 2 or more years from contending anyway. This particular lunatic on the fringe is not calling for Cain for Fielder.
cheering for Adam Witter, who will hit bigleague dingers some day.
Still yelling "Go, Antoan"
by foothillsfan on Oct 6, 2009 11:45 AM PDT up reply actions
I think his point is
that nothing significant can happen. We are not going to get 2 or 3 new outfielders – and if we did they are hardly likely to be the the 850-900 OPS types.
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
-------
PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game currently in early planning stages.
What if they sign Holiday?
The more I think about it, the more I think signing Holliday is the one big move that could make a huge difference. (I thought the same thing about Texiera.)
I could live with:
Torres/Velez – OF
Sanchez – 2B
Panda – 3B
Holliday – OF
Uribe -SS
Posey – C
Ishikawa/Garko/Bowker – 1B
Rowand – OF
"We're in this thing!" My adopted Giant: "Raptor Jesus" Guzman, "Sweet Jesus" Guzman and Jesus H. Guzman.
Too much money
Once Sabean committs $8-$10 million for Sanchez and Uribe for 2010, we’re out of the running for a Holliday/Bay FA, unless the budget goes up towards $100 million.
by San Francisco Slim on Oct 7, 2009 11:29 AM PDT up reply actions
I agree it’d be mucho dinero, but the team could increase spending and get creative and backload a deal with more money after Rowand comes off the books.
"We're in this thing!" My adopted Giant: "Raptor Jesus" Guzman, "Sweet Jesus" Guzman and Jesus H. Guzman.
How Much?
If the Giants stand pat other than bringing back Franchez, Uribe, and Garko, and don’t bring back Penny or any other SP, they technically should be able to throw at least $17 Mil/yr at Holliday. Doesn’t that seem like it would be enough, or do you think the Cards/Yanks/Sox would go higher? I think this would be a great scenario, Goofus’ lineup, that is.
Matt Cain: throwing complete game shutouts since 06'. No big deal.
by cain1rstballothof on Oct 8, 2009 12:09 PM PDT up reply actions
Let’s be careful about backloading, otherwise we’re going to be backloading contracts in 2014 to the tune of “We’ll give you a five-year, $80 million contract for 2014-2018, but we won’t pay any of it until 2030 because our payroll is entirely tied up in paying players from 2010.” OK, it won’t get that bad, but previous backloading of contracts is one of the reasons we’d have to backload contracts now.
I say resign Uribe for $2-3M, Sanchez for $4M/year and 2 years maximum, and lock Timmy up for 6-7 years, then wait till the 2011 offseason when the FA class will hopefully be better. We should compete in 2010; the Dodgers are getting weaker, the D-Backs have the yips, the Padres just suck out loud, and the Rockies tend to take the even years off (possibly hung over from the previous season), and we’ll be a stronger offensive team out of the gate, with the same staff and possibly an improved ’pen.
In theory I think a Holliday signing could have a bigger impact then if the Giants had somehow inked Tex. If for no other reason we know Sandoval is an offense force on the MLB level. Last winter we were just hoping that was the case.
That’s it! Katie bar the door for this 79 win team is star crossed! And I am loving it.
Sort of
I think the impacts would be similar, but maybe the team could see the that getting the big benefit could get them into the playoffs in 2010
"We're in this thing!" My adopted Giant: "Raptor Jesus" Guzman, "Sweet Jesus" Guzman and Jesus H. Guzman.
This season the Giants have turned a corner. The franchise no longer needs whole sale cannon fodder to field a team (in a couple positions yes but not all over). If the management realizes this is another question.
Personally I think the Giants need to look at any base singing of ~$4MM or more and ask does this player improve the squad dramatically in more than 1 way? If yes they then don’t be afraid to go near the $10MM or more level. If No, then stick to bottom feeding to fill in a year here or there. In light of this I have no issue for hunting down the bigger game like Figgens or Holliday but a bunch of Winn, Roberts, Tucker contracts will really tick me off.
That’s it! Katie bar the door for this 79 win team is star crossed! And I am loving it.
GREAT SCOTT!
Tommy Joseph is the Dingerzball Wizard
by SoFa King Mike on Oct 6, 2009 12:34 PM PDT up reply actions
any of Dexter Fowler, Carlos Gonzales, Spilborghs, Hawpe, and Seth Smith would become an immediate starter if we had him
Only Hawpe would have had enough veteran savvy to take at-bats away from Winn or Rowand. And Spilborghs, but he had a kind of a crappy season. Of course, they’d all be better options to play LF than Velez, but even the Giants have better options for LF than Velez, so who knows what’s going on there.
Osiris, Lord of the Dead, and relief pitcher for the San Francisco Giants.
FREDEMPTION 2009
But, but, but...
VRRRRRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMMMM!!!!!!!
Still the loving, adoptive father of Hector Sanchez. And who doesn't love switch-hitting catchers with power and patience?
Tigers are mad at Miguel Cabrera. We need to SWOOOOOOP!!!!!!
No Edgar, it's not your fault, it's the fault of the idiot that plays you
by rxmeister on Oct 6, 2009 1:48 PM PDT via mobile reply actions
I bet J. Sanch could get it done. Watchu think??
Wall-E for Best Picture 2008
2009: The return of Los Galacticos!
no
Sanchez+K Fred+Frandsen but they have to include Verlander
The very bad man traded my son...So now I'd like you all to meet my new son, Ryan "Aaron" Garko...Dammit it's just not the same!
J SANCH!! BOOYA!! WITH AUTHORITY!!!
WHY IS BOCOCK?!
by Lars The Wanderer on Oct 6, 2009 6:56 PM PDT up reply actions
The team will be better next yeaar
Even if only because we’ll have F-Dot at 2b the whole year instead of the house of horrors that was around for 90% of the year.
Why do San Francisco teams insist on having terrible offenses? Frank Gore and Pablo Sandoval can't do it all.
Hhmm you do know he posted ~ 305 wOBA with the Giants and made an out over 70% of the time he came to the plate along with swings at over have the pitches, ( any pitches) he sees? In short we was not as much an improvement as he fit right in with the rest of non-Uribe the dreck.
Or did I just fall into the canyon?
That’s it! Katie bar the door for this 79 win team is star crossed! And I am loving it.
Except he was injured the whole time. And he played 25 games, which means SSS. Do you really think he wouldn’t be any improvement at all? We were fielding Manny Burriss for a good portion of the season, and then Matt Downs for a while. Even an injured Sanchez is an upgrade over Burriss and Downs. And if he’s healthy, he could be back up to his first half production.
The very bad man traded my son...So now I'd like you all to meet my new son, Ryan "Aaron" Garko...Dammit it's just not the same!
First point is this is not the first year he has had injury issues. So why does the front office think July – September is aberration? If they have something tangible it would be nice time for them to trot it out. And without something tangible just why is April –June immune to SSS?
Sanchez being an upgrade over Burriss/Downs (or as like to call it now days Internal Dreck to toss in Frandsen Rhollinger etc) is off the mark in so many ways. Not the first is his presence created a greater need for Iternal Dreck down the stretch to play second because he couldn’t take the field and the Giants had traded away the resources that could have been used to get a true replacement for Burriss/Downs. Secondly it is not like that aren’t several options available between November and March that is better than Burriss/Downs.
That’s it! Katie bar the door for this 79 win team is star crossed! And I am loving it.
I didnt say he wasn't injury prone
I also didn’t say April-June wasn’t a SSS, even though it isn’t. More than 70 games in 3 months is not a small sample. But I just said it makes no sense to use a sample of 25 games played while injured to argue he’s not a good hitter. But when Sanchez is healthy, his first half numbers are pretty much what you can expect out of him. Alderson wasn’t about to fetch us Dan Uggla, so I don’t know who you’re referring to. So no, we didn’t waste the resources we could have used on a better 2B. There weren’t any better options on the market.
Your other argument makes no sense. You’re saying Sanchez won’t be an improvement this year because his injuries last year made it necessary to play Frandsen and Downs. This isn’t even true, as Uribe got a good chunk of Sanchez’s playing time. And I didn’t say there aren’t any better options out there, but Sanchez should come cheaply assuming Sabean isn’t retarded and doesn’t just pick up his option. He should come moderately cheaply, and he can be a great player when healthy. He’s definitely worth having.
The very bad man traded my son...So now I'd like you all to meet my new son, Ryan "Aaron" Garko...Dammit it's just not the same!
First off: Rereading this morning i realize I might have come off much more snappy then I meant to. If please accept my apologies and thank you for bearing with me.
I also didn’t say April-June wasn’t a SSS, even though it isn’t. More than 70 games in 3 months is not a small sample. But I just said it makes no sense to use a sample of 25 games played while injured to argue he’s not a good hitter.
This quote gets the bulk of my bone of contention. The other games he missed still count. They count on the team’s record. They count immensely on the player’s value because when you trade for a veteran the age and reputation of Sanchez the team is trading an arm from the upper half of the minors is to avoid "development time". If it is not development time for a player then it is NOW Time. (Off topic here but those missing games should count very much more heavily on Sabean evaluation as well. This was not a “development” acquisition. )
Those missing games count because instead of benching a terribly ineffective Renteria (also probably due to injury) and playing Uribe at SS they end up being forced to use Uribe at 2nd. Of coarse they had already spent their last expendable young arm on Sanchez the team it is not likely to easily go get a replacement at either middle infield spot fill in the missing games. All this is a cascading effect from getting Sanchez and his performance and the conditions of getting him on the roster.
If Sanchez was on the other side of 30 , had less of an injury history, or was still learning the game then I am very likely to buy your counters. For me those counters are very valid for a "developing" player or a player being signed to "lightning in a bottle" contract. None of those conditions apply to Fred Sanchez currently.
That’s it! Katie bar the door for this 79 win team is star crossed! And I am loving it.
I think you more snippy then snappy.
I get your points, but agree with Boonitez in that we shouldn’t base our 2010 expectations of Sanchez on what we saw of him in a Giants’ uni this year.
If we can get him for 2 years at a reasonable amount, he brings legit #2 hitter credentials and solid defense.
"We're in this thing!" My adopted Giant: "Raptor Jesus" Guzman, "Sweet Jesus" Guzman and Jesus H. Guzman.
I did like his glove work.
As for a how legit a #2 hitter he would be if healthy that is different nit to pick. For a guy that has swung at over half the pitches he has seen the last 4 season we better pray he has no lingering injuries that will affect his BABIP or things will yet uglier fast. Still in Sabean/Bochy era he probably is about the best I can reasonably hope for.
That’s it! Katie bar the door for this 79 win team is star crossed! And I am loving it.
I had forgotten how enjoyable it can be to watch a truly professional defender at second base.
Utter frustration and futility.
by Johnny Disaster on Oct 7, 2009 5:59 PM PDT up reply actions
Dave
Please don’t lump Matt Downs in with Manny Burriss. Burriss, while a fine defensive shortstop, has shown absolutely no ability to hit the ball with any authority, and thus will present no threat to a defense. Downs, a perfectly acceptable defensive 2B, has shown an ability to hit at every stop along the minor league trail. There is no proof he can do that at the ML level, but there is a reasonable expectation that he can. There is NO reasonable expectation that Burriss can do so.
"The part of the roster where most of the money is spent, though, is on free agents and guys acquired through trade — guys Sabean did play a big role in acquiring. And they are not good. When you get 2/5 of a pitching rotation for free, you would think you could do better with $76 million than to field the league’s worst offense."
-Taliesin September, 2009
Point well taken Lyle.
I meant the lumping of Internal Dreck to be from a short term ( " WE ARE IN A PLAYOFF RACE!!!" ) what you can do for my right now and the next 3 months point of view.
If you are asking me why I am not currently challenging the assertion that 2010-2012 Sanchz > then 2010 -2012 Burriss + Downs? My answer is few things (in baseball) get my Irish up as much as the specter of very savvy stats fans willfully overlooking the side effects of injury time and how it spills over to the rest of the team. I am not saying it is happening here but I am more than willing to look foolish to make try and make sure it is not happening here.
That’s it! Katie bar the door for this 79 win team is star crossed! And I am loving it.
It's also possible for Bowker to break out.
Who knows.
by AmorVincitOmnia on Oct 6, 2009 11:34 PM PDT up reply actions
we're not even in next year's thing either?
damn
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Oct 6, 2009 4:08 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
We were in this thing. Kruk said so.
by Wonderful Terrific Monds on Oct 6, 2009 6:40 PM PDT up reply actions
The title of this post just ruined my day. See ya guys in 2011.
Giant Dirtbags: John Bowker, Steve Hammond. MIA List: Todd Jennings, Brian Anderson
Jeremy Affeldt induces DP's
by Giant among Angels on Oct 6, 2009 7:46 PM PDT reply actions
DAMN! Since the next two years are already set in stone…. I’m done.
Giant Dirtbags: John Bowker, Steve Hammond. MIA List: Todd Jennings, Brian Anderson
Jeremy Affeldt induces DP's
by Giant among Angels on Oct 6, 2009 9:50 PM PDT up reply actions
We already know that 2012 is the year of the Cubs
The Cubs win the series, the world ends. So it is written, so it will be.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
so is 2015
they beat the miami gators on a 100 to 1 shot
On 5/7, the best part of waking is up LOLDGERS in my cup.
baseball might as well cancel their contract with the giants for 2010.
Go Pablo Sandaval, lose a few pounds and steal a few bases next year.
Way OT: is Friday still opposite day for young kids?
by Wonderful Terrific Monds on Oct 6, 2009 11:04 PM PDT up reply actions
I thought it was friday flip up day
When young women foolish enough to wear skirts had their panties mercilessly exposed.
But then, it’s been awhile since grade school.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
All the idiot comments out of Bochbean’s mouths have tempered my expectations for next year.
Like: Uribe at 3rd all year. Velez/Torres as leadoff hitter. Renteria being pretty much guaranteed SS.
The new “win now” mode also removes the limited room in Bochy’s fat head for development of anyone who might be a useful position player. So, barring a big move, next year is going to be more of the same, with no youngins developed for 2011. Blegh.
Brian Sabean figures that if he buys enough bottles, one of them is bound to have lightning in it.
I keep saying it is going to be a lot like the ’79 team if they try and play the exact same hand. The Giants were 89-73 in 1978 mainly on a lot of good pitching performances rideing on Darrell Evens and the Ripper’s shoulders along. The ’79 squad was 71 -91. The current Giants has no one like Evans but the pitching is much more talented. Uribe could be LeMaster. Blech.
That’s it! Katie bar the door for this 79 win team is star crossed! And I am loving it.
How we could win without signing Holliday or Bay...
Here’s a winning team:
1. Trade Sanchez, Romo, Lewis for BJ Upton
2. Sign Adrian Beltre, Erik Bedard, Juan Uribe, Freddy Sanchez, Eric Byrnes and most importantly: Norichika Aoki
3.New manager needed: Bob Brenley or Mike Matheny
Lineup:
1. Aoki RF
2. Sanchez 2B
3. Upton CF
4. Sandoval 1B
5. Beltre 3B
6. Posey C
7. Uribe SS
8. Rowand LF
Rotation:
1. Lincecum RHP
2. Bedard LHP
3. Cain RHP
4. Zito LHP
5. Bumgarner LHP
Panda 4 Prez
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