Bochy and Sabean to return: One man's wish
by Grant on Oct 2, 2009 11:54 AM PDT
627 comments
I think it was "Ben Hur" in which a crucified man started whistling as he taught people to "Always Look on the Bright Side of Life." With the not-final-but-bloody-likely extensions to Brian Sabean and Bruce Bochy, there's only so much raging with fists clenched towards the heavens that a fella can do. The bright side:
The pitching was fantastic. Another GM might have said, "No on this Cain guy. I don't like high school pitchers," or, "Lincecum's skinny frame worries me. Pass." Another GM could have targeted Brian Fuentes instead of Jeremy Affeldt. And I'm almost always a fan of the collection of 30-something AAA arms that Sabean collects, even if this is the first time in a while that some of them worked out well. Under Sabean's watch, the Giants built one of the best pitching staffs in the game.
Bochy doesn't really care for the sacrifice bunt. I don't really care for the sacrifice bunt. There. Something in common. And other managers would have lazily banished Sergio Romo to the back of the bullpen when he had a couple of tough outings that shot his ERA about 5.00, but Bochy stuck with him as a late-inning option. When Bochy gets a new arm to play with, like Dan Runzler, Bochy isn't shy about letting the youngsters prove themselves on the mound. That's a good thing.
There. Something optimistic. I would have taken the organization in a different direction, but let's start with the good stuff. And if you want to get really optimistic, follow this train of thought...
Sabean can't be so obstinate, stubborn, and out of touch that he doesn't know why he offense was so bad for the last couple of years. For the last five seasons, the Giants have had an offense that scored fewer runs than the average NL team. For four of those seasons, the Giants were in the bottom three of the NL. The only thing keeping them from having the worst offense in baseball this season was Pablo Sandoval, and he wasn't exactly a part of the organizational blueprint fifteen months ago. Every active decision Sabean has made to fix a bad offense has done nothing to fix a bad offense. Five years and over $100M later, the Giants still have a bad offense.
So maybe this is the season that Sabean did some soul-searching. The Giants do have statistically minded people in the front office -- really, I'm told they do -- and maybe this is the season that he picked their brain. Heck, it doesn't need to be a stat person at all; anyone with a scrap of cognitive thinking ability should know that Brian Sabean has struggled to differentiate good hitters from average hitters from bad hitters. Maybe after the fifth straight sub-par offense, Sabean's really trying to figure it out.
Confidante: Tell me about Randy Winn.Brian Sabean: Switch-hitter. He's been a .300 hitter in the past. Runs well.
Confidante: Tell me about Aaron Rowand.
Brian Sabean: Good power. Plays hard. Streaky, but good.
Confidante repeats the line of questioning for every non-Sandoval in the lineup
Confidante: So, you see that you've said mostly positive things about each player in isolation. Collectively, though, they represent one of the worst offenses in the National League. You watched it all season. I watched it all season. You can't have a bunch of good, professional hitters and still have one of the worst offenses in the National League. Let's go over the list again.
hours later
Brian Sabean (sobbing): I get it...I get it. These guys aren't good when you compare them to other players around the league. They have a loose collection of individual skills, but I need to compare them against my competition. I can't just evaluate players using the vague qualities that I think make up a good hitter. I get it now...oh, no, what have I done?
That's step one. A breakthrough is needed. Maybe it's already happened. I'm not saying it's likely, I'm just saying it's what I'd like to believe. Step two is simple. Get the booze out of the alcoholic's liquor cabinet. Take the credit cards out of the shopoholic's wallet. Remove the lighter from the pyromaniac's dresser drawer. Do not give Bruce Bochy any bad veteran players to tempt him.
A reminder: Bruce Bochy started Vinny Castilla every day when they were with the Padres, even though it was clear to everyone else in the world, including Castilla's family, that Castilla was a burned husk of a player. When Kevin Towers asked Bochy not to play Castilla, Bochy responded with something like, "Well, don't give me the players if you don't want me to play them." Then Towers released Castilla. After 21 at-bats of nothingness with the Rockies, there wasn't another team willing to give Castilla a shot. Because, again, he was a shell of a player that wasn't very good to begin with.
Bruce Bochy cannot evaluate hitters. He might be the worst evaluator of offensive talent I've ever seen. He really thinks that the difference between Eli Whiteside's defense and Buster Posey's defense can't be made up by Posey's superior hitting, which means that Whiteside contributes more to a team trying to win. He really thinks that Randy Winn had any business as a #3 hitter at the same time Aaron Rowand was hitting eighth. He uses tiny, tiny samples to form indelible opinions; a player who gets hot over 100 at-bats will get 200 more to prove it was a fluke.
So don't give Bochy bad veterans. And if the plan is to start Posey next season-- you know, the first Giants catcher in decades to have a chance at an above-average on-base percentage -- give Bochy a rookie catcher as a backup at the same time. Don't re-sign Bengie Molina. Don't go after a guy like Yorvit Torrealba, even if that would make a lot of sense on a normal team.
And don't sign Garret Anderson. Don't sign Marlon Byrd. Don't sign Brian Giles. Don't give Bochy a chance to put players like that on his permanently inked "Good Player List!"
That's all I want. I want the GM to examine honestly why he has consistently failed to build average offensive teams. And I want the organization to realize that Bochy's strengths are not in player evaluation, crafting a roster that makes the decisions easy for him.
So why is it so cold in here all of a sudden? Brrrrrr. I'm shaking. And heading toward a bright light. I'm not asking for much. What's happening?
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Any way we can crucify Sabean and Bochy?
Befoer they get that damn extension??
"Buy High-Sell Low"--The Brian Sabean Method Of Trading
by Mordy From Monsey on Oct 2, 2009 11:58 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Sabean is the scarecrow who wishes he had a brain.
Check that, he doesn’t know he needs a brain, therefore he’s dumber than the scarecrow.
With Sabean and Bochy there is NO hope EVER of a trophy in the (still empty) case.
There will just be more and more and more mediocrity with bullshit slogans and moron fans drinking the kool-aid while eating overpriced bullshit food while sitting in overpriced seats.
And then each October some other team with a GM with a brain will be playing for the trophy, while morons in the Giants FO pat each other on the back for playing “meaningful” baseball in August, and eventually Lincecum and Cain will find homes on teams with actual plans and help those teams to playoff spots, and the cretin inhabitants of the Giants FO will be patting themselves on the back….etc., etc. ad nauseum.
This franchise should just be shot and put out of our misery.
by Sabean's_Folly on Oct 2, 2009 4:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nick Johnson
I’d take him over Isikawa any day.
Bengie Molina is the slowest human in existence- except maybe Homer Simpson. And Man-Ram.
by Ramah71 on Oct 5, 2009 6:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry, Ishikawa.
Bengie Molina is the slowest human in existence- except maybe Homer Simpson. And Man-Ram.
by Ramah71 on Oct 5, 2009 6:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sabean can’t be so obstinate, stubborn, and out of touch that he doesn’t know why he offense was so bad for the last couple of years.
Yes he can. And he is.
WHY IS BOCOCK?!
by Lars The Wanderer on Oct 2, 2009 11:59 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, if he does understand why the offense has been so bad, it doesn’t seem to have affected what he says or how he does his job.
It’s become really hard to believe that, not that long ago, this team was an offensive powerhouse with question marks in terms of pitching.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
by jcb9 on Oct 2, 2009 12:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have to agree. I think he is. Just the fact that he seems to think that something like 6/8ths of the lineup is just fine for next year says it all.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
by jponry on Oct 2, 2009 12:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah
Everything I’ve heard from him indicates that most of the team will be the same. That’s not somebody who has recognized a problem. Here’s hoping that he’s just playing it close to the vest and he secretly plans to sign Matt Holliday and Nick Johnson in the off-season.
by taliesin on Oct 2, 2009 12:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nick Johnson?
Pray for Public Option.
by hokysmksbw on Oct 2, 2009 12:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
nice.
That’s it! Katie bar the door for this 79 win team is star crossed! And I am loving it.
by daveinexile on Oct 2, 2009 12:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nick Johnson’s one of the few decent cheap first-base options. Obviously the reason he’s likely to be cheap is the injury risk. I also hope they explore whether the Rays would like to salary-dump Carlos Pena on them.
by taliesin on Oct 2, 2009 12:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Really, a 100 games of Nick Johnson and 60 of Travis Ishikawa would be a pretty big improvement.
Please hit better, Randy Winn.
by oldjacket on Oct 2, 2009 12:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Can you really even call it a “risk” at this point with Nick. Shouldn’t we be saying something like, “Nick Johnson should be cheap, but there is that injury greatercertaintythandeathortaxes to worry about.”
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
by Roger on Oct 2, 2009 12:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s this and the Milton Bradley push that baffles me. It’s not that I don’t think they’ll be great upgrades when healthy, but really.. is great OPS over 50% of the season that much more desirable then slightly below OPS over a full season?
You want to see a walk? Then go watch the mailman.
by SeeingStars on Oct 2, 2009 12:51 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, you can’t ignore that the Bradley push is predicated on the idea that we’d get a year of salary relief in three years if we traded Rowand for him.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
by jponry on Oct 2, 2009 12:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, that’s most of it, although I do think there’s a decent chance Milton would rebound some if he weren’t playing in the most racist American city north of the Mason-Dixon line.
by taliesin on Oct 2, 2009 1:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think he could certainly thrive under a manager more like Bruce Bochy (as opposed to Lou Piniella.) He was certainly more or less a model citizen while he was in Texas, under a similarly low-key player’s manager type.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
by jponry on Oct 2, 2009 1:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Definitely the low key thing was probably part of his success at Texas, but I have to wonder how much of it was related to DHing too, and just not having to deal with whatever toll going out in the field and playing defense takes on his body.
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
by Roger on Oct 2, 2009 1:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not entirely a model citizen
He did try to go after that broadcaster who criticized him.
GROUGTHINK ALERT
The first Chester Arthur fanboy ever.
by groug on Oct 2, 2009 3:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, that’s not so bad for him!
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
by jponry on Oct 2, 2009 3:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I thought of Boston when I typed that, but everything I’ve heard suggests that it’s really changed for the better in that regard, while Chicago has not. I haven’t spent any time in Boston recently, so I can’t compare, but I can say Chicago is still pretty bad.
by taliesin on Oct 2, 2009 1:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Can someone honestly think Sabean would trade Rowand and then not turn arround and hand out another Bennard or Roberts type contract? This my bigest 3 hang ups with this proposal. If someone could show how this is unlikely to happen then it my possibly be a saving.
That’s it! Katie bar the door for this 79 win team is star crossed! And I am loving it.
by daveinexile on Oct 2, 2009 1:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
3 year contract for Torres! Starter! (And then he puts up Dave Roberts numbers and nobody is surprised)
by Missing Barry on Oct 2, 2009 1:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
/ throws self down stairs
That’s it! Katie bar the door for this 79 win team is star crossed! And I am loving it.
by daveinexile on Oct 2, 2009 1:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Milton Bradley
the guy is a total headcase. I know he can hit sometimes (when he’s healthy), but he’s just a ticking time bomb and you don’t want him on your team when he inevitably blows up.
I don’t want him anywhere near the Giants roster no matter what.
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Oct 2, 2009 1:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Giants dealt with Barry Bonds. Bradley is a far better player than Rowand, signed to a much more reasonable contract. Absolute worst case scenario, we release him and lose $21 million instead of $36 million. I see no scenario in which trading Rowand for Bradley is a bad idea for the Giants.
by quincy0191 on Oct 2, 2009 2:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Again I ask for some reason to believe Sabean would not trun arround and saddle the franchise with another Bennard or Roberts ( or worse) contract to “fill center?”
That’s it! Katie bar the door for this 79 win team is star crossed! And I am loving it.
by daveinexile on Oct 2, 2009 2:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Seriously. Bradley won’t be here to play CF. The more plausible scenario is Velez/Bradley vs Rowand/Schierholtz. I do think that Bradley will do well in SF (I remember him being a model citizen in OAK), but you’re looking a player whose a good bet to miss 1/3 of games of the duration of his contract. There’s not an obvious value trade here unless you think Velez/Torres is replacement level at CF
You want to see a walk? Then go watch the mailman.
by SeeingStars on Oct 2, 2009 2:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
how about Schierholtz in CF?
We're all basically Pedro Feliz.
by SF Pete on Oct 2, 2009 2:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
They should let him play there in Winter Ball…
by capn on Oct 2, 2009 2:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He’s much more likely to develop into a useful major leaguer if he can play a decent CF, so yes, they should try that.
by taliesin on Oct 2, 2009 2:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Definitely.
You want to see a walk? Then go watch the mailman.
by SeeingStars on Oct 2, 2009 2:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed.
Joe Martinez: You are cool.
When it's all said and done, America will be remembered for three things: The Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
by cornball on Oct 2, 2009 3:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
you guys cannot seriously
be contemplating that AARON ROWAND will not be a Giant next year.
He will be on the Giants. He will play almost every day in CF. Whatever rosterbation goes on in your deraanged little imnes
please try to keep it within the realms of earth.
Just in case it’s not blindingly obvious:
1) The Giants like Rowand. They are not going to cut him and eat his contract
2) He has very limited trade value, because he’s so over priced
3) He’s not even that bad – he’s merely a zero. If we had 7 other Rowand-equivalents (adjusting for position) we’d have a pretty good team. If we had 6+Sandoval, we’d be a great team.
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
-------
PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game currently in early planning stages.
by zenbitz on Oct 2, 2009 2:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, the idea of Sabes voluntarily exchanging Gamer McGrittyson for Milton Bradley is LOL.
by Evan on Oct 2, 2009 2:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Rowand hit .217 .270 .364 after the all star break. He will be 33 and has routinely abused his body. I think it is not absurd to think he has a Randy Winn-like year. I certainly would not target CFs, but it does not hurt to have options.
by capn on Oct 2, 2009 2:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think it is not absurd to think he has a Randy Winn-like year
I think it’s pretty responsible to think that. You know Randy Winn just got the 2nd most PA’s on the Giants, right…? That’s what makes me sad.
by Missing Barry on Oct 2, 2009 2:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I vomit a little every time I think of Randy Winn playing this year, and I vomit a lot when I imagine him batting right-handed. I guess your point is that if Rowand is breathing, he will play. Point taken.
by capn on Oct 2, 2009 2:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
the good news
is that he’s signed through 2012, right?
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
-------
PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game currently in early planning stages.
by zenbitz on Oct 2, 2009 2:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
/tries in vain to pull wastebasket out from under desk but vomits contents of lunch all over lap
by capn on Oct 2, 2009 2:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
What's an imnes?
Ya know...ignorance really IS bliss.
Well - I do , anyway.
by victor frankenstein on Oct 2, 2009 4:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m hoping his bad second half was because he was hurt. He really was not good after that forearm injury he had.
by taliesin on Oct 2, 2009 3:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t feel great about hoping two of our highest paid players “get better” from their injuries.
by capn on Oct 2, 2009 3:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m really over Rowand. From what I understand he’s a 32 year old who still thinks he’s 23. He still stays out late partying. I know you’re not saying anything other than what Sabes will and won’t do but Rowand is frustrating me.
We're all basically Pedro Feliz.
by SF Pete on Oct 2, 2009 2:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He stays out late partying?
I’ve never heard that.
But then, I don’t hear a lot about players’ nonbaseball activities.
GROUGTHINK ALERT
The first Chester Arthur fanboy ever.
by groug on Oct 2, 2009 3:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That’s what I’ve heard and it kinda matches up with my general impression of him. It’s not all that rare of course for ball players to enjoy themselves (I mean they have the greatest jobs in the world) but if your skills are declining and you’re quickly becoming a huge disappointment then maybe you can grow up a little and start taking better care of yourself. Kinda like Zito this year.
We're all basically Pedro Feliz.
by SF Pete on Oct 2, 2009 3:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
So you’re saying he needs to start canyon throwing?
by chilibean_3 on Oct 2, 2009 3:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
P90X with Goofus
We're all basically Pedro Feliz.
by SF Pete on Oct 2, 2009 3:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Rowand is arguably the most frustrating thing about this team these days passing Zito…
by capn on Oct 2, 2009 3:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
they’ve already made up their minds that Nate can’t play CF. Hell, they don’t play him in LF b/c he said he didn’t like it.
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Oct 2, 2009 3:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
yes. not sure why. I guess it’s b/c it’s the sun field. But you’d notice that whenever he and Winn were in the game, Winn always played LF (or CF, I guess.)
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Oct 2, 2009 3:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It couldn’t be Nate has the strong arm and RF is the place with a lot of ground to cover?
That’s it! Katie bar the door for this 79 win team is star crossed! And I am loving it.
by daveinexile on Oct 2, 2009 3:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
BUT RANDY WINN IS THE BEST RF IN PHONE COMPANY PARK HISTORY
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Oct 2, 2009 3:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
/ awkward scilnce aen sits down quietly
That’s it! Katie bar the door for this 79 win team is star crossed! And I am loving it.
by daveinexile on Oct 2, 2009 3:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ya know...ignorance really IS bliss.
Well - I do , anyway.
by victor frankenstein on Oct 2, 2009 4:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He said that?! A guy in his position should be willing to play any position asked.
Mustache. Grow one. - Steve Balboni
by jhiat00 on Oct 2, 2009 3:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t think it’s that he refused, I think he just stated his preference and that’s enough for Bochy.
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Oct 2, 2009 3:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Based on a couple books I’ve read (Ball Four, Odd Man Out) you may not even want to state a preference. It seems you have to have the attitude that you have no preference as long as you are out there helping the team. Especially for marginal guys like Nate.
Mustache. Grow one. - Steve Balboni
by jhiat00 on Oct 2, 2009 3:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Seriously!
Um Nate, here are your options:
1) You can play where we tell you to play and stay here in San Francisco
2) You can play RF in a small town in the Central Valley
p.s., Here are the directions to Target. Go buy yourself some shades and suncreen
by capn on Oct 2, 2009 3:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
apropos of nothing, Fresno is actually a pretty fricking big.
by Alex_Lewis on Oct 2, 2009 5:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
a pretty fricking big what?
I don't know anything about minor league players, so I adopted the Coke Bottle, and it's totally grown on me.
Get rid of Bochy and Sabean, it's time for something new.
by ringleader3 on Oct 2, 2009 5:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Leaveing the whole CF angle aside for a moment this discusion on Bradley – on his own mertits – reminds me a lot of talk about this guy before he became a Gaint.
He had completely different set of demons though. He also hit what might be one of the hardest homers I ever saw in the ’Stick. That chair in the upper level right field was dented for years.
That’s it! Katie bar the door for this 79 win team is star crossed! And I am loving it.
by daveinexile on Oct 2, 2009 2:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Man, it’s hard to believe Strawberry became at party time player at age 30. Although I guess that’s similar to Andruw Jones. Ha, and both times the Dodgers suffered.
We're all basically Pedro Feliz.
by SF Pete on Oct 2, 2009 2:50 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
party time player
freudian slip
Please hit better, Randy Winn.
by oldjacket on Oct 2, 2009 2:51 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
awesome
That’s it! Katie bar the door for this 79 win team is star crossed! And I am loving it.
by daveinexile on Oct 2, 2009 3:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s also hard to believe Darryl Strawberry was a Giant.
Especially since I lived in New Jersey that year and this is before you could watch or listen to baseball on the Internet.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
by jcb9 on Oct 2, 2009 2:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I used to have a Darryl Strawberry poster on my wall. Sorry rxmeister.
We're all basically Pedro Feliz.
by SF Pete on Oct 2, 2009 2:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think JOnes though ti was his talent falling off. Strawberry the talent was there, you could see flashes, he just couldn’t master himself long enough to be the force he could be.
That’s it! Katie bar the door for this 79 win team is star crossed! And I am loving it.
by daveinexile on Oct 2, 2009 3:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
please do not compare Bradley to Bonds. Bonds was never a headcase like Bradley is, particularly on the field. He may have been a bit of a prima donna, but he put up hall of fame numbers that made it worth it. To me, Bradley is more akin to Benitez – a guy who wears out his welcome everywhere he goes and quickly, even if he can put up some good numbers.
I’m not saying I wouldn’t prefer his numbers over Rowand’s (if he wasn’t so injury prone) but in this case, I reject the player on a personal basis.
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Oct 2, 2009 2:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Unlike Benitiz, though, Bradley does consistently put up numbers. Benitiz was a headcase and sucked for us.
by Missing Barry on Oct 2, 2009 2:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
lol, I love how every time somebody says anything bad about Bonds, people get butt hurt.
Bruce Bochy would like you to look at the career numbers and stop complaining.
Bob Howry's #1 (and only) fan!!!
by cheno on Oct 2, 2009 4:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Along the same vain I look at Iwamura as a possibly barging piece. I like his odds of a bounce back, versatility and age a lot better than Fred Sanchez.
That’s it! Katie bar the door for this 79 win team is star crossed! And I am loving it.
by daveinexile on Oct 2, 2009 12:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
There also is Felipe Lopez, who according to MLBTR, isn’t likely to be offered arb.
Insanity is just a state of mind.
by giants9107 on Oct 2, 2009 12:44 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’v kept my eye on Lopez the last 2 + winters. He has intrested me. I also think he will slack off if given a multiyear contract.
That’s it! Katie bar the door for this 79 win team is star crossed! And I am loving it.
by daveinexile on Oct 2, 2009 12:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Been wanting him for a while. Better and younger than Sanchez. Plus, how puzzling is it that the Giants don’t really seem to seek out Asian players, just for the marketing angle?
by taliesin on Oct 2, 2009 12:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Shinjo!!!!!!!!
Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes.
by WilliamVanLandingham on Oct 2, 2009 12:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
But he’s like the only position player I can think of (unless you count Dave Roberts). They did have Yabu, and I guess you could count Espinelli.
by taliesin on Oct 2, 2009 1:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Espinelli did bring in the Asian fans
GROUGTHINK ALERT
The first Chester Arthur fanboy ever.
by groug on Oct 2, 2009 3:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
wait
if you can count Espinelli, what about Travis Ishikawa? Or did I miss him being mentioned in here.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
by jponry on Oct 2, 2009 3:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh yeah. Duh. He’s half Japanese, but at least he has the name going.
by taliesin on Oct 2, 2009 3:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Espineli is from Texas.
I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
Mr. F! | comics | art | New Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory
by Natto on Oct 2, 2009 3:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, but he’s, according to Wikipedia, “the first full-blooded Filipino ever to play in the major leagues.”
by taliesin on Oct 2, 2009 3:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That’s different from scouting in Asian countries though.
I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
Mr. F! | comics | art | New Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory
by Natto on Oct 2, 2009 3:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dave Roberts wasn’t scouted in Asia either. Unless Sabean saw his dirty diaper and decided he was gritty.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
by jcb9 on Oct 2, 2009 3:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I feel like the point has gotten muddled here.
I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
Mr. F! | comics | art | New Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory
by Natto on Oct 2, 2009 3:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
We have Shingo Takatsu in AAA! And Sun Woo Kim at one point.
I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
Mr. F! | comics | art | New Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory
by Natto on Oct 2, 2009 3:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well the current “Asain” style, I think, has more to do with the Dead Ball era strategy. Limit your exposure to catastrophic failure in an inning. Be willing to end give an out to dramatically increase the chance of a 1 run crossing the plate vs always playing for the jack pot inning. And Counting on the nonout (OBP) to keep the pressure on the other team. Those that have seen more Asain teams play please correct me where I am wrong here. But that is my impression.
And we have a front office that wants to ignore the power of the NONout and focus solely on the ball in play. A Front office that hates the bunt (which is not my favorite play for the record) to the point they can’t envision the reason for a non pitcher to EVER use it. Even after 2+ season of continuous examples of more than 1 position player hitting like, well, a pitcher. So yes I can see how this franchise over looks Asian players.
That’s it! Katie bar the door for this 79 win team is star crossed! And I am loving it.
by daveinexile on Oct 2, 2009 12:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was referring to players already over here, in college or major/minor leagues. But the Giants have been strangely inactive in scouting overseas Asian players as well.
by taliesin on Oct 2, 2009 1:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
those guys also tend to be quite a bit more expensive.
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Oct 2, 2009 1:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think they’ve just recently started to improve in that area. I’ve read a few reports of Giants scouting in Taiwan and Japan over the past few years. Apparently they’ve scouted Japanese high school pitcher Yusei Kikuchi.
I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
Mr. F! | comics | art | New Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory
by Natto on Oct 2, 2009 1:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
My adopted Giant hard at work.
Still in despair.
"Use the stencil! Do it!"
konakona:「つかさに教われと...なんか非常に負けたような気がする。」
Shun Kakazu: MOAR JAPANESE PROSPECTS PLZ
by Zetsuboushita on Oct 2, 2009 6:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m hoping this is just being respectful to the players on the team during the season. It’d be tough to say “I realize we have a hole in left, center, right field, short…” in public. True, the chance are slim that that is the case, but a boy can dream.
by AngelWillSaveUs on Oct 2, 2009 12:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
True enough, last year at this time Sabes was saying he felt Burriss had shown enough to be the starting SS in ’09, then as soon as the bell rang he went through a wad of cash at Renteria. Of course, that whole chain of logic somehow ended up with us having perhaps the two worst starters in baseball this year open the season as our middle infield.
So that’s really not as hopeful an example as I started off trying to make.
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
by Roger on Oct 2, 2009 12:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, they were both a step up from Bocock.
Osiris, Lord of the Dead, and relief pitcher for the San Francisco Giants.
FREDEMPTION 2009
by neurofarm on Oct 2, 2009 12:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Burriss was a very very small step up.
by taliesin on Oct 2, 2009 1:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Of course, that whole chain of logic somehow ended up with us having perhaps the two worst starters in baseball this year open the season as our ____________
Fill in the blank for the past 4 years!
by AndOnTheDrums... on Oct 2, 2009 1:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The main word is Stubborn. He’s so stubborn that he actually thought the Giants could make the playoffs with this offense.
"It ain't over till it's over." - Yogi Berra
by 49er16 on Oct 2, 2009 12:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
they almost did.
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Oct 2, 2009 1:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
IN BEFORE LOL FRED
I don't know anything about minor league players, so I adopted the Coke Bottle, and it's totally grown on me.
Get rid of Bochy and Sabean, it's time for something new.
by ringleader3 on Oct 2, 2009 12:01 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
poor Flew
"There he goes. One of god's own prototypes. Some kind of high powered mutant never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die."
by KINGofCRA5H on Oct 2, 2009 12:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wouldn’t worry about him too much. He’s going to go to a team that wants him to play. And I mean, c’mon, even this year he was getting paid to (well, mostly not) play baseball.
by taliesin on Oct 2, 2009 12:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’ve given up on him playing a role with the Giants next year – I just want him to land with a team that appreciates his skill set.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
by jcb9 on Oct 2, 2009 12:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You mean striking out looking?! Dropping fly balls?!
Jesse Foppert: I Still Believe. Maybe a little less now.
"I've come to the conclusion that the two most important things in life are good friends and a good bullpen." ~Bob Lemon,
by AndYourBirdCanSing on Oct 2, 2009 12:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He’s no Gene Velez
We're all basically Pedro Feliz.
by SF Pete on Oct 2, 2009 12:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe a team that values getting on base, scoring runs and making outs by getting to balls that would go right by most left fielders.
Utter frustration and futility.
by Johnny Disaster on Oct 2, 2009 12:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I realize he’s not as valuable as Jesse Foppert or anything…
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
by jcb9 on Oct 2, 2009 12:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Mean
Jesse Foppert: I Still Believe. Maybe a little less now.
"I've come to the conclusion that the two most important things in life are good friends and a good bullpen." ~Bob Lemon,
by AndYourBirdCanSing on Oct 2, 2009 12:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If by striking out looking you mean getting on base without making an out well above league average…
by Missing Barry on Oct 2, 2009 12:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was kidding. I love Fred.
Jesse Foppert: I Still Believe. Maybe a little less now.
"I've come to the conclusion that the two most important things in life are good friends and a good bullpen." ~Bob Lemon,
by AndYourBirdCanSing on Oct 2, 2009 1:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You mean the Rockies?
Why couldn't McCovey have hit the ball just three feet higher??
by tobias on Oct 2, 2009 1:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
dustin mohr just came off their books!
On 5/7, the best part of waking is up LOLDGERS in my cup.
by GameSix on Oct 2, 2009 1:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I fully expect
he will end up on an NL West team (Diamondbacks?) and torture us Hariston-like for years. And we’d deserve it.
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
-------
PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game currently in early planning stages.
by zenbitz on Oct 2, 2009 2:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You know, a part of me would take some pleasure in that…
by Missing Barry on Oct 2, 2009 2:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You say that now...
GROUGTHINK ALERT
The first Chester Arthur fanboy ever.
by groug on Oct 2, 2009 3:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
how did you miss?
the TWSS here.
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
-------
PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game currently in early planning stages.
by zenbitz on Oct 2, 2009 3:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Miguel Montero is like a hundred times better than Bengie.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
by jponry on Oct 2, 2009 3:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
they’re talking about FLEW
Please hit better, Randy Winn.
by oldjacket on Oct 2, 2009 3:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh, I think groug mentioning Yorvit made me think it was Bengie /o\
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
by jponry on Oct 2, 2009 3:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Couldn't agree more
Especially the part about Bochy. This is why I was more hoping Bochy would be gone than Sabean.
"We're in this thing!" My adopted Giant: "Raptor Jesus" Guzman, "Sweet Jesus" Guzman and Jesus H. Guzman.
by Goofus on Oct 2, 2009 12:10 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
If I had to chose between the two the Giants would keep, it would be Sabean.
Bochy drives me insane with his lineup decisions. That’s why I agree with Grant about how the Giants can’t go out and sign an old veteran.
"It ain't over till it's over." - Yogi Berra
by 49er16 on Oct 2, 2009 12:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
A good GM can stop Bochy from making his bad decisions, though. A GM also has a much bigger impact on W-L than a manager. If I had to pick one, it’s definitely Bochy.
by Missing Barry on Oct 2, 2009 12:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Perhaps it is worth noting Towers was not considered a bad GM at the time of Vinny gate. I also believe the Leather Neck Sandy Alderson was in the Padres front office as well. ( AKA The Man who had the guts to take on the Tin Despots in Blue and the smarts not to lose while he did it.) I have a hard time thinking either of them would reluctant to language that would peal paint off a wall. Yet Big Head persisted any ways.
That’s it! Katie bar the door for this 79 win team is star crossed! And I am loving it.
by daveinexile on Oct 2, 2009 12:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, and so they stepped in, told him to stop, when he didn’t, they cut Vinny to make it stop…
by Missing Barry on Oct 2, 2009 12:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
/ nods
That my memory of it as well. But it took 2 well established front office types to stop HIIEEEAAD. I don’t see 1 well established front office type arround here let alone two.
That’s it! Katie bar the door for this 79 win team is star crossed! And I am loving it.
by daveinexile on Oct 2, 2009 12:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think Sabean’s tenure would make him “well established”. That has nothing to do with being “good at his job”, though.
by AndOnTheDrums... on Oct 2, 2009 1:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
/ scratchs head
Perhaps we can settle on “well entrenched”?
That’s it! Katie bar the door for this 79 win team is star crossed! And I am loving it.
by daveinexile on Oct 2, 2009 1:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think that’s a pretty apt description.
by AndOnTheDrums... on Oct 2, 2009 2:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1
Hate Bruce Bochy for how he handled the younger players this year.
No one here gets out alive.
by Bond16 on Oct 2, 2009 12:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
+2
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Oct 2, 2009 1:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I can say +4
GROUGTHINK ALERT
The first Chester Arthur fanboy ever.
by groug on Oct 2, 2009 3:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Can you go all the way to +109
Joe Martinez: You are cool.
When it's all said and done, America will be remembered for three things: The Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
by cornball on Oct 2, 2009 3:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
TWSS
Mustache. Grow one. - Steve Balboni
by jhiat00 on Oct 2, 2009 3:44 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sabes has created a bit of an accountability vacuum, which can be a good thing (try to figure out who’s responsible for running the NE Patriots offense; the have the freedom to try certain things without direct criticism). However, it can swing badly when the process and results are poor. Sabean says he works directly with the manager and takes the manager’s input in roster construction. Well, if the manager sucks at it, the manager sucks at it. Take that responsibility away from him.
Unfortunately, since Sabean and the manager work together and nobody else seems to know the full extent of the relationship, neither can be blamed exclusively. They’re a package deal, and the blame for poor process gets diffused.
by David Arnott on Oct 2, 2009 12:12 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I don’t have any trouble blaming Sabean. He’s Bochy’s boss, and he hired him. And it’s not even as though Bochy was some sort of unknown quantity when he came here; he’d been managing a team in the same division for more than a decade. Sabean obviously liked the way Bochy was doing his job and wanted him to do the same thing here. And now that he’s here, if he didn’t like some of Bochy’s decisions, he could ask that things be done differently in the future. So I think it’s entirely fair to see Bochy as simply an extension of Sabean.
by taliesin on Oct 2, 2009 12:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Every year, I think this is going to be the off-season in which Sabean accepts that his batting-average-oriented ideas about offense don’t work anymore. But already this year we’re told Bochy will be retained, we’re told Freddy Sanchez’s option will be picked up, we’re told Eugenio will be a starter, etc. I really don’t think he gets it yet.
by Evan on Oct 2, 2009 12:15 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Bill Nuekom’s baseball acumen must be very limited. He judged the performance of Bruce Bochy based on spring training expectations not on actual decision making.
No one here gets out alive.
by Bond16 on Oct 2, 2009 12:15 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
This is so sad and true.
"The BB's are out. The BB's are being arseholes to me." - Brian Wilson.
by hairball on Oct 2, 2009 2:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
"I expect to eat five hamburgers today."
“Wow. You ate five and a half. Here’s a million dollars.”
“Thanks, Grandpa Neuk!”
by Every6thDay on Oct 2, 2009 2:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If Vinny Castilla at age 36 was on 2009 Giants they'd have won the West.
To say a guy with eight 20+ HR seasons and more RBI than K over his career wasn’t a very good player to begin with is nutzoid.
by hokysmksbw on Oct 2, 2009 12:27 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
He wasn’t a very good player to begin with. He had a nice, but not great, peak from ’94 to ’98, but was otherwise a below average hitter with one bounce-back year in a ridiculous offensive environment.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
by jponry on Oct 2, 2009 12:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
ah, the pre-humidor days of Coors. Good times
Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes.
by WilliamVanLandingham on Oct 2, 2009 1:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Castilla was not an everyday player until he was 27.
His 1999 season was pretty good — .275 with 33 HR and 102 RBI.
His 2001 season with Houston was nothing to sneeze at and his 2003 season in Atlanta was better than decent (compared to Matt Williams at ages 34-37).
by hokysmksbw on Oct 2, 2009 7:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
1999 Coors was one of the more ridiculous offensive environments of all time – Castilla had an ~.800 OPS and it was only good for an 83 OPS+.
He was about average in 2001 with Houston and in 2003 with Atlanta, but not really impressive for a third baseman.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
by jponry on Oct 3, 2009 9:26 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm always fascinated by the statistical categories that exist in your mind
More RBIs than Ks is one that never would’ve occurred to me in a million years.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
by jcb9 on Oct 2, 2009 12:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
LOL, this.
The first time I read that it didn’t even register it was so ridiculous. Wow.
Joe Martinez: You are cool.
When it's all said and done, America will be remembered for three things: The Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
by cornball on Oct 2, 2009 3:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Because you are a Nerd.
One who knows nothing about Baseball, Bitches!
by hokysmksbw on Oct 2, 2009 7:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Vinny Castilla at age 34 when not playing in Coors Field
.218 / .281 / .493. 21 home runs, though. But since you always say a player with as many/more strike outs than hits can’t possibly be good, I’ll point out that he had 62 hits and 60 strike outs. He struck out more than 20% of the time, in fact.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
by jcb9 on Oct 2, 2009 12:44 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And just for the sake of argument
Vinny Castilla sucked at Phone Company Park. .191 / .248 / .340. That’s only 105 career at bats, but you don’t believe in sample size either.
Now that I check, his OPS in Candlestick was only 1 point off that. Higher batting average and less power, though.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
by jcb9 on Oct 2, 2009 12:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
What that meant is that Castilla couldn't hit Giant pitching.
Not a problem if he was playing FOR the Giants.
by hokysmksbw on Oct 2, 2009 7:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dumbass, Castilla had 126 H/69 K when he was 34 (2004)!
Only .232 BA that year, but hit .277 in 2005 with only 1 more AB .
Castilla had 1884 H/1069 K in his career. — Highly competent batter for his era.
by hokysmksbw on Oct 2, 2009 7:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
True, but his error-to-stolen-base ratio was nearly five to one, so clearly he sucked.
by Evan on Oct 2, 2009 1:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You just CAN’T be worse than SEVEN TO TWO and expect to be a GOOD MAJOR LEAGUE PLAYER.
IT JUST DOESN’T HAPPEN
GROUGTHINK ALERT
The first Chester Arthur fanboy ever.
by groug on Oct 2, 2009 3:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
NERD
Mustache. Grow one. - Steve Balboni
by jhiat00 on Oct 2, 2009 3:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He really thinks that the difference between Eli Whiteside’s defense and Buster Posey’s defense can’t be made up by Posey’s superior hitting, which means that Whiteside contributes more to a team trying to win. He really thinks that Randy Winn had any business as a #3 hitter at the same time Aaron Rowand was hitting eighth. He uses tiny, tiny samples to form indelible opinions; a player who gets hot over 100 at-bats will get 200 more to prove it was a fluke.
I’m not even sure there’s this much analysis going on. In spite of their youth, he still plays Velez and Ishikawa regularly. And even when Lewis went on a hot streak as a pinch hitter, he still almost never got to start. Does anyone else get the impression that Bochy just plays the hitters he personally likes? And that he generally has trouble relating to younger players?
Osiris, Lord of the Dead, and relief pitcher for the San Francisco Giants.
FREDEMPTION 2009
by neurofarm on Oct 2, 2009 12:31 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
I think he really overreacts when players get off to hot starts, à la Velez. As for Ishikawa, I think he plays him so much because of his defense. That’s all I can really guess.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
by jponry on Oct 2, 2009 12:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If I’m remembering correctly, Fred Lewis in the beginning of the season was on fire, but was just one slump away from being benched. Velez cooled off and continues to start. I think he just likes Eugenio and doesn’t like Fred.
Osiris, Lord of the Dead, and relief pitcher for the San Francisco Giants.
FREDEMPTION 2009
by neurofarm on Oct 2, 2009 12:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, even when Velez is going bad, he’s swingin’ the bat and runnin’ hard! When Fred’s going bad, he’s striking out looking a lot, which is frustrating to watch.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
by jponry on Oct 2, 2009 12:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
True. But basically I think there’s just too many inconsistencies for Bochy to have a “philosophy” behind who he plays. Plus, I seem to recall reports of conflict between Bochy and Fred, and between Bochy and Garko. Maybe I’m reading too much into it, but I think his personal feelings towards players have a big effect on how he designs his starting lineups.
Osiris, Lord of the Dead, and relief pitcher for the San Francisco Giants.
FREDEMPTION 2009
by neurofarm on Oct 2, 2009 12:44 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Defense
I think you nailed it.
Bochy probably places too much emphasis on defense. It explains why Whiteside and Ishi would get so much playing time and why guys like Garko, Guzman, Bowker and Lewis got so little playing time.
"We're in this thing!" My adopted Giant: "Raptor Jesus" Guzman, "Sweet Jesus" Guzman and Jesus H. Guzman.
by Goofus on Oct 2, 2009 12:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah
and it’s not as though defense wasn’t really important to the success of the 2009 Giants – it was. But at some point, you do have to sacrifice a little defense for offense if you have better options (especially at catcher or first base or the corner outfield.)
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
by jponry on Oct 2, 2009 12:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Also, if this is a criteria
Then it sucks that Bochy is as bad at evaluating defense as he is at evaluating offense. Lewis is not that far inferior to Velez, and Whiteside is not that far above Posey, to name 2 glaring examples.
"The BB's are out. The BB's are being arseholes to me." - Brian Wilson.
by hairball on Oct 2, 2009 2:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Plus I would think you could sacrifice a little defense with the great pitching the Giants have.
Mustache. Grow one. - Steve Balboni
by jhiat00 on Oct 2, 2009 2:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Renteria playing short every day when Uribe is the better hitter and fielder would be another.
Joe Martinez: You are cool.
When it's all said and done, America will be remembered for three things: The Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
by cornball on Oct 2, 2009 3:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
his defense really isn't
GOLD GLOVE either
by sfoakbay on Oct 2, 2009 6:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Never said he was, only that he was better than Renteria, which – for a major league shortstop not named Derek Jeter – is not hard to do.
Joe Martinez: You are cool.
When it's all said and done, America will be remembered for three things: The Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
by cornball on Oct 2, 2009 7:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Again, though, it’s not consistent. Velez is not good at defense, and he continues to start, sometime even at 2B where he really is not good at all.
Osiris, Lord of the Dead, and relief pitcher for the San Francisco Giants.
FREDEMPTION 2009
by neurofarm on Oct 2, 2009 1:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I actually think Velez has made strides on his OF defense.
He still scares the living crap out of me at 2B.
Please hit better, Randy Winn.
by oldjacket on Oct 2, 2009 1:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree completely. I think he doesn’t needs a whole lot of OF work to be above average (at least at a corner spot)…
by Missing Barry on Oct 2, 2009 1:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
UZR
pegs him as basically a above average LF now (in 300 odd innings). HIs CF/RF numbers are bad enough to drag his overall OF numbers down to average-ish.
It that he hits like a SS is the problem.
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
-------
PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game currently in early planning stages.
by zenbitz on Oct 2, 2009 2:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And has stone hands so he can’t play MIF. Yeah, Velez should not be in the long term plans. Yet somehow, he was getting more PT than anyone else…
by Missing Barry on Oct 2, 2009 2:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He was certainly shit in the OF last year. I saw him in Fresno a decent amount and he was doing Terrence Long impressions out there.
But he seems to have figured it out a little. It makes sense, him being a fast guy that has a slow couple of first steps, that he should ultimately be a better outfielder than infielder.
But yeah, he still hasn’t proven he can hit yet, and he’s getting to old to deserve many more chances.
Please hit better, Randy Winn.
by oldjacket on Oct 2, 2009 2:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Aye.
Utter frustration and futility.
by Johnny Disaster on Oct 2, 2009 2:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He’s definitely made some bad plays at 2B (especially some of his DP turns the last few weeks) and hasn’t gotten much criticism for it.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
by jponry on Oct 2, 2009 1:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
he’s going to be a cornerstone of the offense next season.
We're all basically Pedro Feliz.
by SF Pete on Oct 2, 2009 1:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Does a cornerstone hold something down? If so then that sounds right.
by taliesin on Oct 2, 2009 1:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He’s going to be the paperweight of the Giants offense.
Osiris, Lord of the Dead, and relief pitcher for the San Francisco Giants.
FREDEMPTION 2009
by neurofarm on Oct 2, 2009 1:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I hope there’s not a breeze.
by Wonderful Terrific Monds on Oct 2, 2009 1:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If this is a criticism of Bochy
it should also be a criticism of Sabean. I think he over values defense at the corners. Witness JT Snow, no great hitter, he.
Of course, way better than Ishikawa.
by DrStankus on Oct 2, 2009 1:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
JT Snow was not a great hitter, but man, he would have easily been one of the best hitters on this team. It’s almost unbelievable how bad our offense is.
We're all basically Pedro Feliz.
by SF Pete on Oct 2, 2009 1:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
105 career OPS+
That’s better than everyone but Pablo.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
by jcb9 on Oct 2, 2009 1:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah I looked it up because I was wondering how much worse Ishi actually was. It’s a testament to how putrid the offense is that anything close to a 100 OPS+ gets me excited these days.
We're all basically Pedro Feliz.
by SF Pete on Oct 2, 2009 1:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wrote that a little down on him
He never really had the thump of other 1b and thus it was easy to get down on him. Especially in the face of ridiculous statements like “he saves 100 runs a year with his glove”.
But the 09 Giants could have used him. Even his 101 OPS+ from 2001 would have been an upgrade…and made him the 3rd best hitter on the team!
by DrStankus on Oct 2, 2009 1:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Snow was actually better than OPS gives him credit for, too. He took crap for not being a power hitting 1B, but he did usually post high OBP’s. If you look at his wOBA’s, he broke .410 one year, .380 one year, .350 four different times…
He was really inconsistent from year to year, though.
by Missing Barry on Oct 2, 2009 1:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
His 2004 is one of the biggest “Where the hell did that come from?” years that I’ve ever seen.
GROUGTHINK ALERT
The first Chester Arthur fanboy ever.
by groug on Oct 2, 2009 3:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
that is spot on and Nate is the perfect example. Before he got hurt in July, he was riding the hot-streak and could not be touched. When he got back in August, he was cold which trumps hot and now he might as well be dead.
by capn on Oct 2, 2009 1:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
i sometimes relate this to don nelson’s refusal to play his rookies/young players. although its not a very good analogy, i know. it still applies somewhat, though.
"There he goes. One of god's own prototypes. Some kind of high powered mutant never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die."
by KINGofCRA5H on Oct 2, 2009 12:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
why does everyone keep saying nelson doesn’t like playing young players? the likes of morrow, belinelli, and watson averaged 22 min per each last year all while playing at the most crowded position on the roster. i know this isnt gsom but i cant stand when people make lame ass blank statements they heard some sportscaster say once and then repeat it as though its fact. look at the numbers http://www.nba.com/warriors/stats/
as for bochy, you have to imagine that the crazy roster changes that occurred may have been caused by the lack of offensive talent on the squad. maybe he was shuffling it around to find if some lineups worked better than others.
by Benjamoats on Oct 2, 2009 12:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
see: brandon wright
"There he goes. One of god's own prototypes. Some kind of high powered mutant never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die."
by KINGofCRA5H on Oct 2, 2009 12:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
its brandan wright. and it must be hard for him getting the same minutes as randolph and getting outperformed . they split time, randolph looked better, case closed.
by Benjamoats on Oct 2, 2009 12:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Brandan Wright has also missed a pretty substantial amount of time due to injuries.
Thing A
by sam23 on Oct 2, 2009 2:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It goes back to his first stint with the Warriors. Chris Webber was pretty much the only rookie he ever played during those years.
"We're in this thing!" My adopted Giant: "Raptor Jesus" Guzman, "Sweet Jesus" Guzman and Jesus H. Guzman.
by Goofus on Oct 2, 2009 12:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
15 years ago called and they wanted you to know its a different team
by Benjamoats on Oct 2, 2009 12:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You asked a question and I helped answer it. Did I say I agreed with it?
"We're in this thing!" My adopted Giant: "Raptor Jesus" Guzman, "Sweet Jesus" Guzman and Jesus H. Guzman.
by Goofus on Oct 2, 2009 1:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Billy Owens strongly disagrees with you…
by Missing Barry on Oct 2, 2009 1:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
and Tim Hardaway
and Mitch Richmond
and Sarunus Marcelonus (or whatever)
and Chris Gatling
and the fat guy that played center for a while
by joe t on Oct 2, 2009 2:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Big Vic!
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Oct 2, 2009 3:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was going to say the same thing. We actually had an intelligent discussion and looked into this over at GSoM, and found that Don Nelson plays rookies that are ready to play. The whole “Don Nelson doesn’t play rookies” thing is utterly false.
by Missing Barry on Oct 2, 2009 12:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Although one can’t say that the Chris Webber experience really went that smoothly.
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
by Roger on Oct 2, 2009 1:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Of course, and I’m still bitter about that to this day and have a secret part of me that hates Nelson (and the Warriors org) for it. Webber still played, though, and that’s the important point to this conversation. Nelson plays young guys that are ready to play.
by Missing Barry on Oct 2, 2009 1:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Like Rob Kurz.
I don’t think either Bochy and Nelson have anything against playing rookies/young players. They play them when they think they’re ready to play. Their criteria they use to evaluate whether or not they are ready to play is a bit skewed though.
Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes.
by WilliamVanLandingham on Oct 2, 2009 1:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nelson’s really isn’t, though. Bochy’s is for sure.
by Missing Barry on Oct 2, 2009 1:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Of course — but then you could say the same of Bochy. After all, the only really young player on the team was Pablo (who’s several years younger than Velez or Lewis or even Bowker for that matter) and his spot was never threatened even though, you may recall, he really slumped out of the gate the first month of the season.
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
by Roger on Oct 2, 2009 1:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ok, just to be very direct about this. Bochy played Molina, Winn and Renteria despite them being some of the worst players in baseball. Nelson would not do that. He plays the best possible players. If nothing else, the baseball version of Nelson would realize Lewis needs to play over Winn (and then Posey over Molina).
by Missing Barry on Oct 2, 2009 1:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
well, Nelson probably wouldve had Pablo catching, and Nate at 3B : )
Thing A
by sam23 on Oct 2, 2009 2:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Don Nelson would start four outfielders, three middle-infielders and no pitcher.
Joe Martinez: You are cool.
When it's all said and done, America will be remembered for three things: The Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
by cornball on Oct 2, 2009 3:51 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The difference between Nelson and Bochy, is Nelson completely understands basketball. He knows it more than just about anyone else on the face of this planet. He plays the best players on the team, regardless of age. That tends to be veterans, because naturally, rookies just haven’t developed as much as the veterans. The most important difference is unlike Bochy, if a younger guy is better, Nelson will play him, because his focus is playing the best players.
by Missing Barry on Oct 2, 2009 1:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Velez isn't young
- he’ll be 28 this year. He’s just inexperienced. This is his peak. Don’t blink.
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
-------
PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game currently in early planning stages.
by zenbitz on Oct 2, 2009 2:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He has over 2000 minor league plate appearances, so I don’t know that you can even say he’s inexperienced.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
by jcb9 on Oct 2, 2009 2:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
well
I mean that WE have not have the pleasure of experiencing his play so much. So he appears young. Also – bad facial hair = youthful.
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
-------
PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game currently in early planning stages.
by zenbitz on Oct 2, 2009 2:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
“pleasure”
We're all basically Pedro Feliz.
by SF Pete on Oct 2, 2009 2:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
neurofarm, you've got it
"The BB's are out. The BB's are being arseholes to me." - Brian Wilson.
by hairball on Oct 2, 2009 2:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m hoping for a Rockies like 2010. Fan expectations is going to be high next year so if the Giants flounder out of the gate maybe Bochy gets fired.
Jesse Foppert: I Still Believe. Maybe a little less now.
"I've come to the conclusion that the two most important things in life are good friends and a good bullpen." ~Bob Lemon,
by AndYourBirdCanSing on Oct 2, 2009 12:34 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
One month later...
Sabean: This is amazing work. We did it.
Confidante: We sure did. You’ve re-evaluated every player in the organization and we know what we’re dealing with.
Sabean: Plus we’ve developed a new strategy for acquiring new players. We need to look at OBP and wOBA and UZR. We’ve ditched all of the old stats like RBIs & dingers and wins.
Confidante: And what’s your plan for the offseason?
Sabean: It’s right here in this notebook. Not to sign any player over 32 to a long term contract. To only pay Juan Uribe in accordance with his likely regression. Offer a fair contract to Freddy Sanchez or any second basemen with a WAR over 2.0 only AFTER the market dries up for their services. Don’t give Bochy a candidate to start at catcher over Buster Posey, because his on base skills are needed if we ever want to develop an above average offense.
Confidante: I’m proud of you Brian.
Sabean. It was rough, but I learned a lot. I only hope I’m given another shot. But apparently I needed to do this to keep my job. This is the new way of baseball. And if warrior spirit is out and sabermetrics are in, I’ll just have to roll with it. Do you think Neukom will like my new plan?
Confidante is about to answer when Neukom walks into office.
Neukom: Hey Brian, you’ve done such an excellent job over the years. You’ve built this team into a savvy group of veteran ballplayers that know how to play the game the right way. They play with such spirit and always come through in the clutch. You really have done a remarkable job. We’d like to extend you for the next three seasons, and give you a little raise. Is that alright with you?
Confidante & Sabean are speechless. Neukom accepts silence as agreement. Neuk walks away.
Confidante & Sabean share a look at each other. They both stare at the Sabean’s notebook full of his new methods & new strategy towards building a successful ballclub. Sabean walks over to desk, tosses notebook into the wastebasket.
Sabean: You’re fired. (/calls secretary) Have security remove this man, and get me Bengie Molina’s agent on the phone.
El Presidente Larry Baer's epitaph
"Nothing important ever happened without me."
by ResDog on Oct 2, 2009 12:44 PM PDT reply actions 4 recs
personally, i went with rec
On 5/7, the best part of waking is up LOLDGERS in my cup.
by GameSix on Oct 2, 2009 1:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I craughed.
"The BB's are out. The BB's are being arseholes to me." - Brian Wilson.
by hairball on Oct 2, 2009 2:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bad Bad Bad Bad Bad
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
GET THAT VORP AND WHIP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!
by baetown415 on Oct 2, 2009 1:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
SICK BURN
on confidante
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
-------
PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game currently in early planning stages.
by zenbitz on Oct 2, 2009 2:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cool.
UNCOOL!
Cool.
UNCOOL! YOU BASTARD!
Joe Martinez: You are cool.
When it's all said and done, America will be remembered for three things: The Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
by cornball on Oct 2, 2009 3:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
About the pro-Molina Ray Ratto column that came out today.
I’d say that I’d much rather have Jason Varitek than Molina again. I’m guessing that Varitek takes pitches and walks I agree that if Molina were to hit seventh, it wouldn’t be an issue and he’d be a good fit. But, I don’t think the Giants are going to get a third, fourth, and fifth hitter with enough power to push Molina down to seventh. Molina hitting eighth would be great! I’d rather just save the money on F. Sanchez, Penny, and Molina and sign Holliday or Bay to a huge contract. It would be worth it. Giving one of them a huge contract would be helping to make Lincecum, Cain, and Bumgarner wiling to stay here. It’s ok if Pucetas, Sadowski, or someone is the fifth starter instead of Penny. I’d like to see Bumgarner be the Giants 4 next season.
by parisspleen on Oct 2, 2009 12:44 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Varitek is actually probably just about as bad as Molina, if not worse (I’ve heard nothing but bad things about his defense the last few years.)
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
by jponry on Oct 2, 2009 12:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, and while Bengie frustrates me, I do still like him for what he’s done overall. I’d rather have neither, but between those two, easily Bengie.
by Missing Barry on Oct 2, 2009 1:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You'd rather have a fat, career OPS+ 88 catcher in Molina to Varitek's career OPS+99?
Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, Giants FO Kool-aid!
by Sabean's_Folly on Oct 2, 2009 4:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
At their ages carrrer stats are only usefull for see how far they have fallen.
That’s it! Katie bar the door for this 79 win team is star crossed! And I am loving it.
by daveinexile on Oct 2, 2009 4:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Molina had 25 points of OPS+ on Varitek last year and 9 points last year. And Varitek is 2 years old than Molina.
I’d rather have neither of them, really.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
by jcb9 on Oct 2, 2009 4:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't want either of them, but with a gun to my head I'll take Varitek, just for OBP.
by Sabean's_Folly on Oct 2, 2009 4:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
His OBP is better than Molina (this year – last year it was worse), but the last time it was good was 2007.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
by jcb9 on Oct 2, 2009 4:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Varitek would be the best catcher in the league if he played in the NL though.
THE GREATEST OF ALL TIME (for 3 days in 1995).
by Mike Benjamin Hit King on Oct 2, 2009 6:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Has been burned by low BABIP recently. Could rebound a bit.
Still the loving, adoptive father of Hector Sanchez. And who doesn't love switch-hitting catchers with power and patience?
by tedfordfan on Oct 3, 2009 8:20 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t want a .285 OBP anywhere in the lineup, unless it’s the pitcher’s line.
by AndOnTheDrums... on Oct 2, 2009 1:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
A little OT: So, what do you think is the ETA on Thomas Neal...
…to sit on the bench?
Tommy Joseph is the Dingerzball Wizard
by SoFa King Mike on Oct 2, 2009 12:47 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Sep. 2010
He promptly gets Lewkerholtz’d
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
by jponry on Oct 2, 2009 12:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed. If he hits well in Richmond and/or Fresno he should be a September call-up. I suppose if they had an injury they might do something weird like they did with Bowker last year.
by taliesin on Oct 2, 2009 12:50 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bowker spent 2007 in Connecticut, though. Neal hasn’t even made it that far yet.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
by jcb9 on Oct 2, 2009 12:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He’ll start next year in Richmond though and Sabean said they wouldn’t be afraid to push him if he gives them a reason to.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
by jponry on Oct 2, 2009 12:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m sure. I’m just saying that if Neal were to 2010 what Bowker was to 2008, it’d be even more of a leap.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
by jcb9 on Oct 2, 2009 12:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
But he’s not, he’s what Sandoval was to ’08!
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
by Roger on Oct 2, 2009 12:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was hoping he would actually be that for this year. Like, the Giants would move him up to Conn in June and then he’d tear it up there and be a fixture in the starting lineup in The City by August :(
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
by jponry on Oct 2, 2009 1:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I kinda hoped that too — but actually I agreed with their logic. It was only his second year back after serious injury (and his first year back had included a hot start and prolonged second half slump). It was his first year playing OF defense in 3 seasons. It was probably wiser not to rush him.
Sandoval was repeating the Cal league going into ’08, and though they had switched positions on him every year in pro ball, there was enough continuity and enough record, that when his bat showed it was time to promote him, there was no compelling reason to go cautiously with his development.
Somewhere recently I saw Sabean talking about Neal and he said that now that he’s got the full Cal league year under his belt, they won’t be so slow to promote him next year if he gets off to a similar start in AA, which all makes perfect sense to me.
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
by Roger on Oct 2, 2009 1:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Somewhere recently I saw Sabean talking about Neal and he said that now that he’s got the full Cal league year under his belt, they won’t be so slow to promote him next year if he gets off to a similar start in AA, which all makes perfect sense to me.
that was probably from my chalk talk recap :)
And yeah, it definitely makes sense and I hope he tears it up next year so he’s a Giant ASAP
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
by jponry on Oct 2, 2009 1:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I thought it might have been your post, but I couldn’t quite put my mental finger on it, so thought it best to go vague.
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
by Roger on Oct 2, 2009 2:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
But he’s not, he’s what Sandoval was to ’08!
Fair enough. The Bowker analogy was tallesin’s, not mine.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
by jcb9 on Oct 2, 2009 1:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If Neal turns out to be a very good hitter, I doubt he’ll spend much time in AA. I don’t think the Giants have any trouble recognizing guys who are Destroyers of Worlds. They struggle with discerning the guys who hit around league average from their lesser brethren.
Please hit better, Randy Winn.
by oldjacket on Oct 2, 2009 12:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Do you think Kieschnick falls in to the average category?
Tommy Joseph is the Dingerzball Wizard
by SoFa King Mike on Oct 2, 2009 1:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I really like big Kiesch and hope he pans out and can be at least average
I wanted to adopt, but all the good looking babies were taken
by joeytothelimit on Oct 2, 2009 1:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hitting wise, at this point, yeah. I don’t really know anything about his defense.
Please hit better, Randy Winn.
by oldjacket on Oct 2, 2009 1:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It looked awkward seeing him play RF
Tommy Joseph is the Dingerzball Wizard
by SoFa King Mike on Oct 2, 2009 1:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I haven’t seen much, but when he was drafted he was supposed to be quite good defensively.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
by jcb9 on Oct 2, 2009 1:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh. Dang. Seems like he’s going to be in that zone of players that the giants struggle evaluating.
Please hit better, Randy Winn.
by oldjacket on Oct 2, 2009 1:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The organizational equivalent of the slider at the back foot.
Please hit better, Randy Winn.
by oldjacket on Oct 2, 2009 1:44 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not Velez 2008 awkward. I may be wrong. He is aggressive on the field.
Might I make a Mark Teahen comparison?
Tommy Joseph is the Dingerzball Wizard
by SoFa King Mike on Oct 2, 2009 1:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
his offense I mean
Tommy Joseph is the Dingerzball Wizard
by SoFa King Mike on Oct 2, 2009 1:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think he’s got more power than Teahen, but yeah, that would be the right neighborhood.
Please hit better, Randy Winn.
by oldjacket on Oct 2, 2009 1:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
who will be the starting OF in Fresno to start the year?
by capn on Oct 2, 2009 1:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Even my boss’ 6 year old son wonders why Bork doesn’t let Buster play the rest of the season.
Tommy Joseph is the Dingerzball Wizard
by SoFa King Mike on Oct 2, 2009 12:51 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I like Lewkerholtz’d. Is that a first, or has that been used before?
by calpolynate on Oct 2, 2009 12:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think I just made it up but variations have been used before.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
by jponry on Oct 2, 2009 1:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lewkerholtz… so it’s got that going for it.
by Wonderful Terrific Monds on Oct 2, 2009 1:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lewkerholtzey’s?
GROUGTHINK ALERT
The first Chester Arthur fanboy ever.
by groug on Oct 2, 2009 3:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Are you referring to Gerald Lewkerholtz?
by TwoBagger on Oct 2, 2009 12:49 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Rygerald Lewkerholtz
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
by jponry on Oct 2, 2009 12:51 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That’s what I meant. Please excuse my error.
by TwoBagger on Oct 2, 2009 1:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I fucking give up
Bruce Bochy: Leave him alone, he's the Manager Man and his BORK is much worse than his bite.
by zodiac_chiller on Oct 2, 2009 12:52 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I seem to remember a good amount of sac bunts
and that’s sensible enough with a team so inept at moving runners and getting them in. Ya know, hitting. It’s his absolutism concerning squeeze bunts, be they safety or suicide that really annoys me.
by Rorsavelt on Oct 2, 2009 12:54 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaaha!!!!!
Oh, Grant. Your comedy skill are in full effect here. Whoa ho ho! In the years I have been coming to this sight, that might have been the funniest thing I have seen yet.
sig
/autodefenestrates
something something jhiat00 will swindle
Young Studs for Old Bats: The Brian Sabean Story
FREE KEVIN FRANDSEN!!! Member of the Frandsen 5% Club.
by Uribe nee Gonzalez on Oct 2, 2009 12:55 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
This comes off as really sarcastic for some reason.
Jesse Foppert: I Still Believe. Maybe a little less now.
"I've come to the conclusion that the two most important things in life are good friends and a good bullpen." ~Bob Lemon,
by AndYourBirdCanSing on Oct 2, 2009 1:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
/swindles something from Uribe nee Gonzalez
Mustache. Grow one. - Steve Balboni
by jhiat00 on Oct 2, 2009 2:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Even Hitler knows Sabean and Bochy need to go!
Someone here had to have created this, right?
I'm thinking but nothing's happening.
by JRPhillips on Oct 2, 2009 1:02 PM PDT reply actions 4 recs
I think this is the work of JctGamer.
WHY IS BOCOCK?!
by Lars The Wanderer on Oct 2, 2009 1:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
nah I just posted that as a fanshot a few days ago. Stole it from somebody else.
Obviously any links in the above post are probably NSFW
by jctGamer on Oct 2, 2009 5:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Whether it's Big Head at the helm or anyone else
the Giants are not going to be a good team until their hitters are willing and able to show some plate discipline. I mean it seems like they make the decision to swing while in the on deck circle. It’s just a matter of time before one of them actually takes a cut at a pick off attempt. I doubt the Giants are going to clean house of the culprits since that would be the bulk of the team, so of course that means someone on the coaching staff will get blamed instead, namely Lansford. I don’t know if there is any batting coach out there who might be able to impress the value of working the count on the Giants hitters, but I’ll toss a name out as food for thought: Cecil Cooper just got canned as manager of the Astros, and I remember watching him in his prime… dude could rake and was a pretty disciplined hitter to boot. He’s a low key kind of guy but could be someone the hitters respect and follow.
by baseballjunkie on Oct 2, 2009 1:15 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Whether it is Langsford, Cooper or someone else the key is to have almost no established veterans as long a Big Head is the manager. The only way a veteran loses playing time in Big Head Reign is on the DL and the management refuses to use the DL. So the Veterans have no reason to listen to any hitting coach.
There are a lot of ways for hitting discipline to show itself but one of the easiest ways is to look ( raw data from here) at walks, K’s & GiDP per plate appearance. Molinia, Renteria, Rowand, Winn, & Uribe have 148 BB, 431K, 55 GiDP in 2,580 PA’s going into today. They walk ~6% of the time , K ~17% of the time & GiDP ( A.K.A. Kill the Inning) 2.1% of the time.
Travis, Burriss, Sandoval, Lewiss and Nate have 144BB, 340 K and GiDP 29 time in1775 PA’s. They walk 8% of the time, K ~19 % of the time and GiDP ( A.K.A. Kill the Inning) 1.6% of the time.
I would say the class of players that would mosty likely to listen to the hitting coach ( not established veterans) is producing at a comparable rate ( if not better because the slightly lower GiDP rate) as the Veterans at that point it is up to the manager to make the Veterans earn their play time.
That’s it! Katie bar the door for this 79 win team is star crossed! And I am loving it.
by daveinexile on Oct 2, 2009 1:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
Unless Big Head is willing to sit non-productive vets they will have absolutely no disincentive to keep hacking away like they have always done. It’s hard to teach old dogs new tricks especially when the dogs are constantly rewarded for bad behavior with more PT. Our best hope may be for Buster and Bowker (hopefully new and improved) to get more PT next year, along with Sanchez and Garko if they are still around.
by baseballjunkie on Oct 2, 2009 3:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sanchez is a miss placed hope. We swings at 50%, or more, of the pitches he sees every years for the last 4 years. In his carrer he walks 4.6% of the time. Just for Grins & giggles Figgens ( anothr name batted arround here today) has never swang at 43% of the pitches he sees in his entire carrer and walks about 10% of the time ( this last season it is 14%).
That’s it! Katie bar the door for this 79 win team is star crossed! And I am loving it.
by daveinexile on Oct 2, 2009 4:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Badly worded on Figgens. I should say has his has never taken a swing at more then 43% of the pitcher he sees in a season.
That’s it! Katie bar the door for this 79 win team is star crossed! And I am loving it.
by daveinexile on Oct 2, 2009 4:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ya know...ignorance really IS bliss.
Well - I do , anyway.
by victor frankenstein on Oct 2, 2009 4:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
My Martzen. MINE!!
/ hands over cooler
alright you can the Gar can have some.
That’s it! Katie bar the door for this 79 win team is star crossed! And I am loving it.
by daveinexile on Oct 2, 2009 4:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I guess it’s time to stop being angry and start accepting this.
by deuce deuce on Oct 2, 2009 1:18 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
NEVER
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Oct 2, 2009 1:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sigh
This is on rotoworld:
Jason Bay is expected to get at least four years at around $14-15 million, reports Alex Speier of WEEI.com.
Bay got off to a scorching start before hitting a severe summer slump. Since busting out of it on August 5, however, he’s led the AL in home runs. Boston talked about an extension with Bay earlier in the year, but it was tabled until the offseason. Both he and Matt Holliday are the biggest bats on the market.
Would you rather have Bay at 4/56 or Rowand at 5/60?
YOU EAT YOUR DAMN EGGROLL
by heimy25 on Oct 2, 2009 1:19 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
dear lord.
"There he goes. One of god's own prototypes. Some kind of high powered mutant never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die."
by KINGofCRA5H on Oct 2, 2009 1:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I had my hopes up that Sabean and Bochy wouldn't come back
I won’t even bother getting my hopes up, for either Bay or Holiday coming to the giants
I would take Bay though
by NateEveryday on Oct 2, 2009 1:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah
If it’s between Holliday and Bay, I take Bay.
"The BB's are out. The BB's are being arseholes to me." - Brian Wilson.
by hairball on Oct 2, 2009 2:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
funny
since Holliday is a year younger, a mildly better hitter (depending on AL→NL correction), and a better fielder.
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
-------
PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game currently in early planning stages.
by zenbitz on Oct 2, 2009 3:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have to wonder why.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
by jponry on Oct 2, 2009 3:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The plethora of potential Bay puns.
I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
Mr. F! | comics | art | New Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory
by Natto on Oct 2, 2009 3:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, no potential puns available for Holliday, that’s for sure.
Or did I just get chasm’d?
by taliesin on Oct 2, 2009 3:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
We’re in the Bay Area, so…
I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
Mr. F! | comics | art | New Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory
by Natto on Oct 2, 2009 3:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
SIGN ’EM BOTH! HOLLIDAY BY THE BAY.
by Dan from NM on Oct 3, 2009 12:03 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cost? That’s all I can think of. Bay’s worse and older.
by taliesin on Oct 2, 2009 3:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Holiday & Bay
only two available that would significantly upgrade the Giants next year (aside from a wild-ass trade).
well, it was really gary thomasson--the great, giant, fan
Language of the McCoven--TWSS!, Meh!, STFD!, Bork!, Fail!, STFD! STFD! STFD!
by greatgiantfan on Oct 2, 2009 1:24 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I hope that Manny decides to stay with the Dodgers, otherwise that 20 million might go straight to Holliday or Bay.
YOU EAT YOUR DAMN EGGROLL
by heimy25 on Oct 2, 2009 1:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Uggla is one guy on the trade market that I could see being a difference maker.
Can’t think of anybody else, since I don’t think the giants will trade Cain for Fielder.
Sanchez + prospects for Fielder maybe, but I still don’t see it. Who else?
by NateEveryday on Oct 2, 2009 1:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Any of the Upton brothers
Tommy Joseph is the Dingerzball Wizard
by SoFa King Mike on Oct 2, 2009 1:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think you’re thinking of the Doobie Brothers
Tommy Joseph is the Dingerzball Wizard
by SoFa King Mike on Oct 2, 2009 1:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Crawford. Pena. Cody Ross. Jose Reyes. BJ Upton.
by taliesin on Oct 2, 2009 1:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hunter Pence and Jayson Werth might be have-able. Phils could definitely be in market for a closer (wink wink nod nod)…
by capn on Oct 2, 2009 1:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pence is inexpensive. Why would Houston trade him?
by Wonderful Terrific Monds on Oct 2, 2009 1:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
they probably would not; it depends on what they need and what we have to offer. As it is, they have some depth in the OF (Lee, Pence, Bourn, Michaels, Erstad). Just saying…
by capn on Oct 2, 2009 1:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Uggla, Hardy. Those guys – if prorperly used by big head – could realy do a lot.
That’s it! Katie bar the door for this 79 win team is star crossed! And I am loving it.
by daveinexile on Oct 2, 2009 1:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sanchez, Franny, Flew + filler for Uggla and Hermida. That’s the one that will go down.
Matt Cain: throwing complete game shutouts since 06'. No big deal.
by cain1rstballothof on Oct 2, 2009 2:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
the Marlins are likely to non-tender Hermida anyway. I’d just wait for them to do that instead of trading for him.
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Oct 2, 2009 2:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe so. I think he’d be worth a cheap look, more upside than Nate or Bowker in RF.
Matt Cain: throwing complete game shutouts since 06'. No big deal.
by cain1rstballothof on Oct 2, 2009 2:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Either coner spot. A 350 OBP & a 340 OBP in front of Panda’s 385 OBP put Uglla’s 350 OBP in front or behind Panda… now wouldn’t that be a bit more intresting?
That’s it! Katie bar the door for this 79 win team is star crossed! And I am loving it.
by daveinexile on Oct 2, 2009 2:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yup. That that have me chubby.
I would shift Uggla over to first and get a very good defensive MI and call it a day.
That’s it! Katie bar the door for this 79 win team is star crossed! And I am loving it.
by daveinexile on Oct 2, 2009 2:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Uggla loses most of his value if he’s not a second baseman.
by Wonderful Terrific Monds on Oct 2, 2009 4:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would argue that 354 wOBA at first base would be large upgrade offensively at 1st base. It would also mitigate the defensive range hit he gets from playing 2nd ( something like - 9 UZR/150).
Just for giggles we could look at Nick the Stick 369wOBA this season with a – 5.2 UZR/150 at an easier position but only able to take the field 300 innings less this year and with much larger durability issues.
I fail to see how Nick Johnson could get consideration at first base for us in 2010 & 2011 will team controlled Uggla does not. I can’t remember the last time the Giants’ had First baseman with a 350+wOBA.
That’s it! Katie bar the door for this 79 win team is star crossed! And I am loving it.
by daveinexile on Oct 2, 2009 5:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I like Uggla. Just keep him at second.
I’m also not so sure about a 5’8" first baseman.
I don’t want Johnson. I like the OBA but he’s bound to be hurt all the time.
by Wonderful Terrific Monds on Oct 2, 2009 5:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The smaller first baseman can work Rod Crew comes to mind ( … 6’0 my hairy left….). Also without a very good defensive SS Uggla at second creates a lot more problems. After this is not about reselling Uggla to another team after we are done with him but improving the 2010 & 2011 Giants as much as possible. some like a +40wOBA jump at 1st base would give the Giants league average offense there. If Uggla wOBA’s higher, like he has in the past, the better.
That’s it! Katie bar the door for this 79 win team is star crossed! And I am loving it.
by daveinexile on Oct 2, 2009 5:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
How about a 6’ 1" first baseman who’s got a big contract and range issues at short?
by maysian on Oct 2, 2009 5:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would love to have either of them.
I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
Mr. F! | comics | art | New Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory
by Natto on Oct 2, 2009 3:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’d love to have both! And I’d love to give up nothing but a pony to get them!
MAKE IT HAPPEN SABES
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
by jponry on Oct 2, 2009 3:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wasn’t there a rumor about Sabes being interested in both Uggla and Nick Johnson?
by esseffgeez on Oct 2, 2009 3:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe, but where would that leave Sandoval?
Matt Cain: throwing complete game shutouts since 06'. No big deal.
by cain1rstballothof on Oct 2, 2009 3:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
third base still?
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
by jponry on Oct 2, 2009 3:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
shortstop? or elsewhere?
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
by jponry on Oct 2, 2009 3:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sandoval’s new bodyguard.
Please hit better, Randy Winn.
by oldjacket on Oct 2, 2009 3:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
he can GTFO
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
by jponry on Oct 2, 2009 3:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah but how do you REALLY feel?
Mustache. Grow one. - Steve Balboni
by jhiat00 on Oct 2, 2009 3:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah
I could get used to this infield:
C Posey
1B Johnson
2B Uggla
SS Uribe
3B Sandoval
by esseffgeez on Oct 2, 2009 3:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
that infield would get used to playing in October…
by capn on Oct 2, 2009 3:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
/drools
Joe Martinez: You are cool.
When it's all said and done, America will be remembered for three things: The Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
by cornball on Oct 2, 2009 4:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sanchez will be back.
Matt Cain: throwing complete game shutouts since 06'. No big deal.
by cain1rstballothof on Oct 2, 2009 3:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’d hope that if they acquired Johnson and Uggla, that wouldn’t be the case.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
by jponry on Oct 2, 2009 3:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe there’s some backpedaling on that?
by esseffgeez on Oct 2, 2009 3:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That it ! Give him a swirlly.
That’s it! Katie bar the door for this 79 win team is star crossed! And I am loving it.
by daveinexile on Oct 2, 2009 4:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
jpon, would you trade Sanchez for Uggla?
Matt Cain: throwing complete game shutouts since 06'. No big deal.
by cain1rstballothof on Oct 2, 2009 3:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And we will get neither of them.
I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
Mr. F! | comics | art | New Nattowear | Unofficial McImage Directory
by Natto on Oct 2, 2009 1:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That sounds like another adventure for Sabes & Baer comic.
Tommy Joseph is the Dingerzball Wizard
by SoFa King Mike on Oct 2, 2009 1:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Derrek Lee?
He has one year left on his contract and looks to be on the decine but still had a 5.2 WAR this season (before getting hurt in a freak back-slapping accident). Cubs could use help in lots of places. Is there a deal there?
by capn on Oct 2, 2009 1:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Holiday, maybe the right priced Middle infielder that would be counted on to play over 1100 innings of +1.5 or better WAR would do wonders.
Bay I need convencing on that he would not be Rowand II – The Sequal.
That’s it! Katie bar the door for this 79 win team is star crossed! And I am loving it.
by daveinexile on Oct 2, 2009 1:51 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’ve heard Red Sox fans say he’s basically a DH playing the field at this point. I’d rather have Holliday, even if he’s more expensive.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
by jponry on Oct 2, 2009 1:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
/ nods
That’s it! Katie bar the door for this 79 win team is star crossed! And I am loving it.
by daveinexile on Oct 2, 2009 1:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
OBP OBP OBP
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
by jponry on Oct 2, 2009 1:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
PLUS INFIELD DEFENSE
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
GET THAT VORP AND WHIP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!
by baetown415 on Oct 2, 2009 1:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
THE NONOUT IS OVERRATED!!!
Can I haz Giants Front Office job nowz?
That’s it! Katie bar the door for this 79 win team is star crossed! And I am loving it.
by daveinexile on Oct 2, 2009 2:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
for third?
We're all basically Pedro Feliz.
by SF Pete on Oct 2, 2009 2:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Probably. You know, his UZRs are weird — he’s superb at 3b and poor in the outfield. My guess is that that’s mostly fluke, so I wouldn’t mind having him in RF either.
by Evan on Oct 2, 2009 2:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
who do you want for 2nd base then? Are you assuming that they won’t bench Rent and have Uribe play SS? I’m intrigued by Chone.
We're all basically Pedro Feliz.
by SF Pete on Oct 2, 2009 2:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
wiht his shrinking range I could also see them entertaining the idea of Renteria filling in at 2nd if a Veteran SS was availible of Big Head usddenly removed.
That’s it! Katie bar the door for this 79 win team is star crossed! And I am loving it.
by daveinexile on Oct 2, 2009 2:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Figgins on a two or three year deal would be a very solid pickup. I suspect he’s gonna be pretty expensive though. 3/30? That would likely be the only significant free agent move, other than Sanchez (or another 2B) and (sigh) Molina.
by taliesin on Oct 2, 2009 2:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Too expensive… What about Garrett Atkins or Hank Blalock? Both had down years and both are said to be available.
by capn on Oct 2, 2009 2:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
On a Big Head Team? No thanks.
That’s it! Katie bar the door for this 79 win team is star crossed! And I am loving it.
by daveinexile on Oct 2, 2009 2:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why?
-From MLBTR:
“But Blalock has made his name at the plate ever since he broke in with a 29 homer season as a 22-year-old. He hit 19 homers in the first half this year, putting up an .854 OPS. Since the break, he’s managed just six long balls and his second-half OPS is only .590.
The late summer slump will hurt Blalock this offseason, but some teams should still have interest."
by capn on Oct 2, 2009 2:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Home/road splits
Arlington: .293 / .358 / .516
Everywhere else: .246 / .300 / .414
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
by jcb9 on Oct 2, 2009 2:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I didn’t notice that… 2008 was even worse. He had OPS of 1.025 @ home and .720 on road… he might not fare well in China Basin
by capn on Oct 2, 2009 2:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Blalock is an “Established Veterans”. That means he can’t lose play time period no matter how bad he sucks. That also means he is less likely to DLed when hurt ( which happens to him a good bit as well) or benched to rest up when hurting too badly to be more productive then their backups.
In Atkins case did I miss when he suddenly figured out how to play the field or hit outside of hitters parks? At Age 29 with a 304 OBP and a 256 BA he looks a lot like Felez w/o the glove to me. The 546 OPS vs RHP looks pretty brutal as well. As minor league invite with a chance to make the squad ( Ala Uribe this spring) sure. Any more then that is a rip off.
That’s it! Katie bar the door for this 79 win team is star crossed! And I am loving it.
by daveinexile on Oct 2, 2009 2:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m with you. Just throwing out names. I still like Nick Johnson at 1B. Problem is that the list of available middle of the order types who are not going to cost Cain or Lincecum is short. What will the Rays want for BJ?
by capn on Oct 2, 2009 2:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think our biggest problem is the most attractive pieces to trade to a lower budget team were moved in July. And Typical Sabean he got a handful of beans and painted rocks. He seems intent of throwing the beans away and planting the painted rocks.
That’s it! Katie bar the door for this 79 win team is star crossed! And I am loving it.
by daveinexile on Oct 2, 2009 2:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The July trades were a disaster, but he had to make a move and the market was not great. He is never good when he has to make a move (see Rowand, Renteria). In retrospect, they should have held in July, but the average fan would have gone nuts and the average fan does not know Tim Alderson or Scott Barnes from Sandy Alderson or Ricky Barnes.
by capn on Oct 2, 2009 2:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
1 of those moves I am (and was at the time) fine with. I preferred the Garko move because I thought that was the proper stakes table to be playing at all things considered. But Both those moves and then add in the trade the last time the Front Office though the Giants’ had a chance at the post season ( Hillenbrand) and I am now very, very down on the idea of Sabean making any midseason trade.
I will not go into wondering/rant why he did not take a flier on Kennedy for a couple weeks when the Cards released him and it was obvious Burriss was too far over his head.
That’s it! Katie bar the door for this 79 win team is star crossed! And I am loving it.
by daveinexile on Oct 2, 2009 3:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He did ok with Schmidt, but otherwise, you are probably right.
by capn on Oct 2, 2009 3:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He was tradeing for a young pitcher then though. Trading away young pitchers he is not so much good at.
That’s it! Katie bar the door for this 79 win team is star crossed! And I am loving it.
by daveinexile on Oct 2, 2009 4:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Atkins? Maybe. Blalock? No effing way.
Joe Martinez: You are cool.
When it's all said and done, America will be remembered for three things: The Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
by cornball on Oct 2, 2009 4:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed 3/30 Figgens >>> Molinia + Fred Sanchez.
That’s it! Katie bar the door for this 79 win team is star crossed! And I am loving it.
by daveinexile on Oct 2, 2009 2:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, but I’m assuming that Sanchez is nearly a lock (and if not another FA 2B is) and that Molina is a near lock. I also should have included Uribe. But other than that no FA acquisitions. So in essence you’d have this year’s team plus Figgins and a full year of Sanchez. That’s better, probably — but by how much?
by taliesin on Oct 2, 2009 2:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It is interesting. If Big Head does not screw the pooch the infield D should be much better and more consistent with Big Head should having enough veteran infielders he trusts to rest the coldest/more banged up of Uribe, Renteria, Sanchez and Figgens.
Not that I want all 4 of them ( I don’t) but that senerio makes it easy to see how much better Figgens for 3/10 would be than Sanchez + Molinia and one of Renteria or Uribe.
That’s it! Katie bar the door for this 79 win team is star crossed! And I am loving it.
by daveinexile on Oct 2, 2009 2:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Depends on how much bounceback we get from Renteria and Rowand, and whether they make good decisions about the corner outfielders.
Why so sure about Molina? I’ll be very surprised if he’s back.
by Evan on Oct 2, 2009 2:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Depends on how much bounceback we get from Renteria and Rowand
I predict negative bounceback.
by Missing Barry on Oct 2, 2009 2:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’d dump both of them if I could, but I’d bet good money that collectively they’ll be better next year than they were this year.
by Evan on Oct 2, 2009 2:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Rowand, I’m not so sure. I want to believe that if he gets healthy and gets a little more rest during the season (Torres!), he can be a little above average. But he might be toast.
Renteria at least cannot be as bad as he was this year. If he starts the year with two months like he had to finish this year, he’ll just be DFA’d. So the amount of harm he can do is somewhat limited. But I’ll be stunned if he puts up a .325 wOBA.
by taliesin on Oct 2, 2009 3:51 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Rowand isn't "toast"
His stats are the same as 2008, 2006, 2005. Just 2004 and 2007 are outliers. He’s a streaky, batting-average dependent hitter who plays a passible CF.
He is who we thought he would be.
You know, the kind of guy you give a 4 year $50M contract to.
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
-------
PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game currently in early planning stages.
by zenbitz on Oct 2, 2009 3:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I guess if he’s not really declining then that defeats my 32 year old who thinks he’s 23 idea.
We're all basically Pedro Feliz.
by SF Pete on Oct 2, 2009 4:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No I think you are on to something...
Since coming to the Giants in 2007 his first-half/second-half splits have been:
2008: 0.290/.359/0.445 – 0.242/0.309/0.356
2009: 0.288/0.348/0.458 – 0.217/0.270/0.364
He may not be getting worse from year to year, but he is definitely getting worse within the year, and this is probably because he is breaking down physically.
by capn on Oct 2, 2009 4:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
just a pattern
if you take any 2 halves of 4 seasons the changes are 25% that they are coordinated.
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
-------
PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game currently in early planning stages.
by zenbitz on Oct 2, 2009 4:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It is uncanny how similar the splits have been… is that proof of anything? No.
by capn on Oct 2, 2009 4:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You wish it was 4/50! Sabean got a bargain: 5/60! He’s locked up through 2012! Wheee!
by taliesin on Oct 2, 2009 4:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That is like me hoping my WebVan stock will soon bounce back as well…
by capn on Oct 2, 2009 2:50 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh, I want to believe Molina will not be back, but the fact that he’s still playing is worrisome. Add to that the Ray Ratto column; I think many times the sportswriters in this town get basically assigned by the Giants FO to do a little advance marketing for what they’re planning.
Hopefully I’m just paranoid.
by taliesin on Oct 2, 2009 3:44 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I tend to agree but if they do bring him back, they really won’t have much money to upgrade elsewhere.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
by jponry on Oct 2, 2009 3:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m into having these two back.
I feel like the cyclical downturn in fortune that follows any period of success in professional sports has already bottomed out, and this season marks a move back into contention. Without a lineup that up and down is filled with players having career years due to illegitimate power. Aurillia and Barry combined for 110 HR’s in 2001. Yeah that Aurillia.
I think it’s easy to henpeck the daily lineup, that is limited, and build a case that this team is garbage, but I take a step back from the Giants, and I see improvement. B&B made the calls that brought about said improvement, and they seem to have a plan. So I’m looking forward to this off season, and the potential for success.
gully
by DanRed on Oct 2, 2009 1:30 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
What’s down doesn’t necessarily eventually come up..
El Presidente Larry Baer's epitaph
"Nothing important ever happened without me."
by ResDog on Oct 2, 2009 1:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
So if they post a 10 game improvement from one year to the next, you can understand why I would take heart. Right?
gully
by DanRed on Oct 2, 2009 1:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Do you expect the pitching to be as good next year as it was this year, especially if htey have to trade someone to get a bat?
by AndOnTheDrums... on Oct 2, 2009 2:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, because we were really bad beforehand, because of Sabean’s failures as a GM, which are still so blindingly obvious this season (we still suck on offense).
by Missing Barry on Oct 2, 2009 2:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I see improvement. B&B made the calls that brought about said improvement, and they seem to have a plan.
Of course there’s an improvement. Really bad teams improve by default. Now, who’s fault was it that we were really bad to begin with? But somehow you’re arguing that’s evidence in Sabean’s favor? I’m not seeing it. I’m also not seeing plan in the least bit, unless that plan invovles only playing guys who aren’t going to be here long term (in other words, terrible old guys who are overpaid and worse than our young guys).
by Missing Barry on Oct 2, 2009 1:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Inherent in your argument is the assumption that the Giants, if managed correctly, could have maintained their status as the best team in the National League over the past 7 years. That if only Sabean hadn’t messed it up we’d be looking at a team that was in the playoffs every year.
gully
by DanRed on Oct 2, 2009 1:44 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, inherent in his argument is that the Giants could have done BETTER than they actually have during the post-Bonds transition period. It’s not exactly a high standard.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
by jcb9 on Oct 2, 2009 1:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
So given even that as an assumption, what is to honestly have been expected? This sort of revisionist history fan-dom just doesn’t resonate with me. I mean they got better this year. So I am stoked as fan, because they were relevant again.
gully
by DanRed on Oct 2, 2009 1:50 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
But they got worse each year several years in a row before that? Does that go out the window now?
Please hit better, Randy Winn.
by oldjacket on Oct 2, 2009 1:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well yeah. I would expect a decline, if your championship caliber team was filled with Bonds, Kent, Aurillia, Snow, and the steroid experiment named Benito, then you’d see a pretty precipitous drop off. I mean from afar the middling nature of the Yankees over the past decade speaks volumes. That’s like an ideal post championship run study of an organization with F.U. money, and quality players. They haven’t been able to break through, and they can stock their pantry every year, with whatever they want.
So to me, after the high always comes the low.
gully
by DanRed on Oct 2, 2009 2:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Making the playoffs 9 times in 10 years = “they can’t break through?”
Okay.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
by jcb9 on Oct 2, 2009 2:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Come on. Really? Isn’t it common knowledge that there is much hand wringing and clenching of teeth as the yankees have lost their dominance in the past 9 years? In spite of their playoff appearances, they have failed to win…. That’s the point. Not simple win/loss records.
gully
by DanRed on Oct 2, 2009 2:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yankees fans think the World Series is their birth right and they freak out if they don’t win it every year.
They’ve had very good teams. They get to the postseason every year. Once you get there, it’s a crapshoot to a large extent.
Oh, and by the way: if winning the World Series is the criteria for a successful team, Sabean’s failed to do that for 13 years running.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
by jcb9 on Oct 2, 2009 2:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You appear to be trying to find the devil in my details here. But the point of my Yankees example is that even in the best case scenario, an organization can’t keep it up.
Because the Giants are not the Yankees, and the Giants can’t do what the Yankees can financially, I have more patience for failure.
gully
by DanRed on Oct 2, 2009 2:44 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Win/loss records are pretty important.
I don’t see a whole lot of actual decline in the Yankees. The Red Sox certainly have gotten better, but I don’t think that, say, the Yankees that lost to DBacks was worse than any of the ones that won it all in the late 90’s.
Please hit better, Randy Winn.
by oldjacket on Oct 2, 2009 2:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yankees that lost to DBacks
That WS was bad ass.
Mustache. Grow one. - Steve Balboni
by jhiat00 on Oct 2, 2009 2:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Randy Johnson is BAMF.
Please hit better, Randy Winn.
by oldjacket on Oct 2, 2009 2:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
As much as I don’t like the Diamondbacks and Luis Gonzalez, that dying quail he hit off of Mariano Rivera is one of my favorite non-Giants moments. I was so sick of the Yankees. Especially living in New York at the time.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
by jcb9 on Oct 2, 2009 2:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ditto. One of my favorite postseason moments.
by Evan on Oct 2, 2009 2:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I had just moved to PHX in September. Being in college we couldn’t afford tix to the WS so we watched outside of the stadium on a jumbotron the had setup. Being there when they came back against Rivera and celebrating with what was probably hundreds of thousands of people is one of the coolest moments in my life.
Mustache. Grow one. - Steve Balboni
by jhiat00 on Oct 2, 2009 2:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
well, I’d love to have the Yankee’s middling years, they make the playoffs every year but one in the toughest division in either league.
That aside, no one’s really disputing that some decline was inevitable. We’re just saying that if Sabean realized what kind of team he had in, say, 2005 he could have started the rebuild sooner and more thoroughly.
Please hit better, Randy Winn.
by oldjacket on Oct 2, 2009 2:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And if he acquired guys with OBP instead of looking for guys with BA we wouldn’t have been the worst offensive team in the league over the last 4 years.
by Missing Barry on Oct 2, 2009 2:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Da da ding!
Joe Martinez: You are cool.
When it's all said and done, America will be remembered for three things: The Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
by cornball on Oct 2, 2009 4:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I think everyone wishes that the organization had navigated the post ‘roid waters with a little more tact, but to me that is a waste of time. PeSo to me had they fired Sabean when they fired Alou, I would have understood. But in 2007 they gave him a state of the union, put up or shut up opportunity, and he agreed. So now we have a Pablo in the lineup and a Buster on the horizon, the best young pitching in the majors, and we’re saying goodbye to Classy & Bengie. So in that I see a steady progression towards being relevant again.
gully
by DanRed on Oct 2, 2009 2:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
But what has changed since then? We’re still running out terrible veteran hitters that can’t get on base and are paid way more than their cheaper, younger, better counterparts that we refuse to play…?
by Missing Barry on Oct 2, 2009 2:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
My problem is that even after the put up or shut up opportunity, he signed Aaron Rowand to a 5yr/$60 million deal, Renteria to a 2yr/$19 million deal, traded a very promising prospect for an injured (at the time!) 2nd baseman and another one for a platoon player that was tied to the bench shortly thereafter.
At the same time, players with spotty or bad track records (Velez, Rohlinger, Burriss) were given playing time over players with good track records (Bowker, Nate, Fransden).
So although there was some improvement, there was also enough mismanagement and bad decisions that make me want someone else to run the team.
by AngelWillSaveUs on Oct 2, 2009 2:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
As far as I’m concerned, Winn and Molina are not gone until they either retire or sign with another team. I think Molina will be back, and as absurd as it seems, I think there’s like a 50% chance that Winn will be too (admittedly, on a very cheap deal).
by taliesin on Oct 2, 2009 3:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
So to me, after the high always comes the low.
To a degree it is true. You’re always more likely to go in a direction towards the average (it’s simple probability distributions). Like I said, a bad team is expected to improve just like a good team is expected to decline. Moving towards the average and turning into one of the worst teams in baseball are two very different situations, though.
by Missing Barry on Oct 2, 2009 2:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m glad they improved. But, the team’s biggest issue is offensive production. Sabean has put together a team of players for the past 5 years that was consistently one of the worst offensive teams in baseball. So, with that evidence, he is not capable of puting together a good offense. Therefore, we should replace him with someone else who could possibly do that.
by AngelWillSaveUs on Oct 2, 2009 1:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s not “revisionist history” when a lot of us have been saying the same thing for two years. If anything it’s unwillingness to adjust to changed circumstances. But I don’t think it is.
Yeah, they got better this year. There’s some credit to go around (almost exclusively to do with pitching), but there’s also clearly some luck involved – we have almost the same run differential as the Blue Jays, and they’re 9 games below .500.
Before they got better this year, the Giants had 4 years of losing seasons in a row. Even with some of the awful teams they had in the early 80s and mid 90s, they never had that many losing seasons in a row in either decade. I’m sorry, but when you’re a team with a good payroll and quality pitching, having one okay season in five years isn’t a good result.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
by jcb9 on Oct 2, 2009 1:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Also, our offense is a heaping pile of god-awful refuse, even with Pablo Sandoval in there. It’s been that way for years. Any GM who puts together a team that hits so badly for so long and who doesn’t seem to have learned from the experience is not competent, let alone deserving of praise. That’s just pathetic.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
by jcb9 on Oct 2, 2009 2:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Never 4 in row seems pretty circumspect when they have a pattern of 3 losing seasons in a row.
‘94-’96, ‘83-’85, ’79-81
Before that I was not born, so it doesn’t count to me… But you get the idea right? They have sucked before. Like all of the ’80’s until the end.
And yeah their offense has been pitiful recently, and it is the stuff of gray hairs, and spousal discomfort. And all that being true they’ve already won 14 more games than they did last year, and there is no reason to give the credit for this turn around to anyone other than people in charge.
So you can wish that they hadn’t signed Rowand and Zito and Renteria, because you have the gift of hindsight. But why get hung up on that shit today? As you look a winning a team for the first time in a while, your balking at the they way they’ve done it. It’s just not fun. It’s some pessimistic, woulda coulda type of meandering logic that kills the fun that is this season. Haters.
gully
by DanRed on Oct 2, 2009 2:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, they had three losing years in a row on occasions. That’s not as long as four years.
Also, “all of the 80s until the end?” No. They had winning seasons every year from 1986-1989 (86 and 88 were the worst years in that run, and those years their records those years weren’t much worse than they are this year). They won 87 games in 1982, which is about what they’re going to do this year. The bad stretch in the 80s – 1983-1985 – was about as bad as the bad stretch this decade, except that the low was a bit lower and they were back to respectability a bit quicker.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
by jcb9 on Oct 2, 2009 2:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's not hindsight
I wasn’t pleased about Rowand and Zito and Rentaria when they were signed.
by DrStankus on Oct 2, 2009 2:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Also
So you can wish that they hadn’t signed Rowand and Zito and Renteria, because you have the gift of hindsight.
Yeah, you’re full of shit here. A lot of folks here – myself included – were down on both those signings WHEN THEY HAPPENED. That ain’t hindsight.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
by jcb9 on Oct 2, 2009 2:44 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You’re getting a little worked up here.
gully
by DanRed on Oct 2, 2009 2:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
RAGE
But not really, no. Just casual swearing and calling a spade a spade. Standard McCoven discourse. I’ve rolled my eyes at a couple things you’ve said, but that’s about it.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
by jcb9 on Oct 2, 2009 2:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
if we can't get worked up about our fucking sports teams
then what do you expect us to get worked up about?
by DrStankus on Oct 2, 2009 2:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I just want keep it above the belt. What if outside of the internet we are all actually nice.
gully
by DanRed on Oct 2, 2009 3:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
eh
if you tell me that the only down on Zito, Rowand and Renteria, then I’d tell you that you were full of shit to your face.
by DrStankus on Oct 2, 2009 3:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Telling someone they are full of shit is not exactly a huge insult.
by DrStankus on Oct 2, 2009 3:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I just re-read this. Wow, you are really tough on the internet. Please be this tough in real life.
gully
by DanRed on Oct 3, 2009 11:34 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
he’s a hothead that one.
I was going to comment that this has been the most civil argument that this board has seen in some time.
Please hit better, Randy Winn.
by oldjacket on Oct 2, 2009 2:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s either I vent on a messageboard about the Giants or I stab a hobo drifter. It’s your call.
by AngelWillSaveUs on Oct 2, 2009 2:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Angel’s a stabbin’ hobo, not a signin’ hobo.
Please hit better, Randy Winn.
by oldjacket on Oct 2, 2009 2:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh, huh
I said “both those signings” because I missed that you included Zito. Yeah, everyone thought that was a god-awful, horrible signing from the moment it happened. Not just the McCoven, either. It was almost universally panned across the baseball world as I recall.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
by jcb9 on Oct 2, 2009 2:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And what I hope that I have not conveyed is an overall endorsement of every signing. Or really, any recent signing. I groan when I see the names on the lineup card just like everyone else here.
I differ in that I don’t think that Sabean has had final say in something as egregious as the Zito signing. To me that seemed like an organization wide move towards Disney-fying up the team’s image. To counter Barry. And that until the farm starts to bear fruit, he’s forced to overpay for crap players because someone has to play.
I think that since the Vlad misstep that signing free agents as the main strategy for filling out a roster year to year is fools gold, and they they’re only ever gonna get good again if their core comes up through the farm. That’s how we end up with the talent black hole at SS that we’ve seen ever since Richie was enjoying injections in the posterior.
So as I see the farm start to pop up in the majors I am impressed, and I take it to mean that the change has begun.
gully
by DanRed on Oct 2, 2009 3:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
if the above is true
Sabean should have quit , rather than be overruled by a monumentally stupid decision that he will forever more be linked with professionally.
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
-------
PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game currently in early planning stages.
by zenbitz on Oct 2, 2009 3:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Really? Do you know how much he gets paid? Would you have quit?
gully
by DanRed on Oct 2, 2009 3:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Or what I like to call, Monday, Tuesday & very often Thursday.
El Presidente Larry Baer's epitaph
"Nothing important ever happened without me."
by ResDog on Oct 2, 2009 3:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
So if only 29 other jobs like yours existed, you would quit if your boss did something stupid?
GROUGTHINK ALERT
The first Chester Arthur fanboy ever.
by groug on Oct 2, 2009 3:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Barry Zito
has been called the WORST FREE AGENT signing in history. Now, that’s a bit over over the top -because there are a few guys who got injured… but I’m not even sure that’s fair.
Sabean will forever be tainted with that signing. He’s the GM.
He’s the one responsible for player aquistions and compensation. He takes the blame.
If he’s not comfortable with the blame, he should have quit. Just like (slightly off subject) Crabtree’s
agent should quit if he is really acting on Crabtree’s orders to sit out.
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
-------
PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game currently in early planning stages.
by zenbitz on Oct 2, 2009 3:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Really? Blame?
Here’s the most likely scenario (to me, anyway): Brian Sabean thought the Giants were signing a good pitcher to a too-large contract.
What are the odds that he’ll get another GM job at all if he gets fired? There aren’t that many of them.
What are the odds that would be a GM job with a team that had the same (or more) financial resources as the Giants? There are even fewer of those.
Brian Sabean believed he could build a good team in San Francisco even with a bad contract in Zito. That’s what he was trying to do. To say he should have quit a prestigious lucrative almost-impossible-to-get job because he might have taken the blame for something is almost nonsensical. This is an excellent job, even with Zito on the books, and he had absolutely no reason to want to give it up.
GROUGTHINK ALERT
The first Chester Arthur fanboy ever.
by groug on Oct 2, 2009 4:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I differ in that I don’t think that Sabean has had final say in something as egregious as the Zito signing. To me that seemed like an organization wide move towards Disney-fying up the team’s image. To counter Barry.
Well, okay, but I wasn’t responding to that because that’s not what you said. You said:
So you can wish that they hadn’t signed Rowand and Zito and Renteria, because you have the gift of hindsight.
And that’s nonsense.
I think that since the Vlad misstep that signing free agents as the main strategy for filling out a roster year to year is fools gold, and they they’re only ever gonna get good again if their core comes up through the farm.
Which is exactly why we’re so het up over the fact that our brain trust seems to think that Molina and Whiteside > Posey.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
by jcb9 on Oct 2, 2009 3:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Especially when it’s the same organization that gave up Barnes and Alderson for Garko and Sanchez, particularly when Sanchez was hurt and Garko was a brief slump away from being benched.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
by jcb9 on Oct 2, 2009 3:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And when they’ve been talking about maybe bringing Molina back.
I can go on if you want.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
by jcb9 on Oct 2, 2009 3:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
O.k., I like your use of gray boxes around my prose. Here comes some more…
Specific to your claim that hindsight allows you to bemoan these lame contracts is nonsense,
i would counter that had Scott stayed above .315 this year, and not already started to fade, we wouldn’t mind him. And had Freddy not been Mr. Glass as soon as he donned the cream, it’d be less likely that the Aldersen trade was one of the articles of evidence for dismissal. But because we saw these two fail, we use hindsight to wish taht something else had happened, and we hold it against the people in charge.
Garko’s inability to field the easiest position on the diamond probably lead to his disappearance. That and his non-existent bat when playing in the Bay.
I too can go on ad nauseum, but all this sifting through daily lineup changes, and roster moves is the stuff of fantasy. I mean there are people on here who are POSITIVE that certain players (F.Lew, Bowker, Posey, Garko) should get the start each day, and that the people who are being paid to decide these things are too dumb to see it.
I just don’t believe that anybody participating in this discussion knows more than Bochy does about his roster.
No One Knows that Posey, Barnes, Aldersen, Lewis, Bowker, Velez, Torres, MadBum, Neal, Ishi, etc. would have done better than the people who played in their place this year. I mean you can assume it. You can use your statistical splits to argue for it. But at the expense of enjoying the winning season, I just don’t get the point.
I want Bengie gone. I want to suffer through a few years of crappy Posey A.B.‘s while he rounds into form. But all that aside, when that fat catcher hit the triple and legged it out I was giddy. And when Whiteside hit that granny in Houston, I was giddy. So I am glad they played the lion’s share, because they provided me with enjoyment this season.
gully
by DanRed on Oct 2, 2009 3:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
i would counter that had Scott stayed above .315 this year, and not already started to fade, we wouldn’t mind him
you are losing me….
I just don’t believe that anybody participating in this discussion knows more than Bochy
ok you lost me
Mustache. Grow one. - Steve Balboni
by jhiat00 on Oct 2, 2009 3:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Okay, here are some more grey boxes for you
i would counter that had Scott stayed above .315 this year, and not already started to fade, we wouldn’t mind him.
That would be hindsight – “Oh, I didn’t like the Rowand signing at the time, but he’s doing okay this year so I guess it’s okay.” That’s hindsight. The position you’re complaining about, however, is, “I never liked the Rowand signing and he’s proven to be just the mediocre player I thought he was.” That isn’t hindsight – that’s being better at analyzing Aaron Rowand than Sabean apparently was.
Garko’s inability to field the easiest position on the diamond probably lead to his disappearance.
Garko’s defense was a known quantity before we traded for him. He’s not exactly new. If anything, this is a point against Sabean.
Also, Freddy was ALREADY hurt before we signed him, and there had been talk (from KLaw, I think) that he might be breaking down. This is part of why a lot of us didn’t like the trade at the time. Those fears were, it seems, justified.
No One Knows that Posey, Barnes, Aldersen, Lewis, Bowker, Velez, Torres, MadBum, Neal, Ishi, etc. would have done better than the people who played in their place this year. I mean you can assume it. You can use your statistical splits to argue for it. But at the expense of enjoying the winning season, I just don’t get the point.
Sure. But the guys who played instead of the folks you list were, for the most part, terrible, and did not contribute to having a winning season. We don’t know what other guys would’ve done, but even if they were replacement level, that wouldn’t have hurt the team much if any.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
by jcb9 on Oct 2, 2009 3:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You Are Fantastic
Quick, determined, awesome.
And in all fairness you’re right about the hindsight argument. If you were panning it at first, and now your initial panning has been proven true, then I would encourage you to use your powers for good.
What I don’t see in any of your arguments is an appreciation for the change in fortunes of the Giants. There are a slew of things to be dissatisfied with, enough that an entire website can thrive off of it. Like this one.
I don’t know the gray box trick, but you said…
“But the guys who played instead of the folks you list were, for the most part, terrible, and did not contribute to having a winning season. We don’t know what other guys would’ve done, but even if they were replacement level, that wouldn’t have hurt the team much if any.”
And this is the absolute crux of the problem with your position. You THINK this, because you feel like it’s true. And that’s all that it is, a feeling.
As terrible as the guys who played were, they actually produced a low run scoring, RISP abandoning winning record. For all their faults they are at least 14 wins better than last years team. If they can throw even half that much improvement my way next year I will be GEEKED.
gully
by DanRed on Oct 2, 2009 3:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
For the grey box trick, you use the Blockquote button next to the Bold, Italics and Strikethrough buttons.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
by jponry on Oct 2, 2009 3:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And this is the absolute crux of the problem with your position. You THINK this, because you feel like it’s true. And that’s all that it is, a feeling.
Well, not really, no. If you assume that statistical analysis of baseball has any validity at all, you can look at guys like Edgar Renteria, Randy Winn, etc., and pretty definitively conclude that they weren’t much more than replacement level this season. So, if the Giants played other guys instead of Winn, Renteria, etc., and those guys produced replacement level numbers, the Giants’ performance wouldn’t have been significantly affected.
It’s possible they would’ve been sub-replacement players, of course. I don’t think so, but that really is a feeling on my part.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
by jcb9 on Oct 2, 2009 4:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Randy Winn was apparently worth 1.9 wins above replacement
by kingofthacove on Oct 2, 2009 4:51 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If you believe he’s really 18 runs above average on defense, then yes.
by taliesin on Oct 2, 2009 5:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
you know what really kills the fun of this season: missing the playoffs b/c the team refused to field a decent offense on a daily basis. when given an opportunity to put better offensive players on the field, it largely didn’t.
Like many, I’m happy the team won a lot more game than expected in the pre-season, but I’m certainly disappointed it didn’t do better than it could have. I don’t completely blame the players for their inability to hit and get on base and form at least an average offense (I do only to the extent that they refused to adjust and be more selective), I blame the people who loaded up the roster and continually filled out the lineup card with first pitch slop hackers who can’t hit. That the offense was just as bad as last year’s is the problem. Yes, Sabes deserves some credit for bolstering the bullpen last offseason. It was terrific this year. But he didn’t improve the offense one iota and that’s the problem that I have with him.
Also, I think that most of us are evaluating him and Bochy based on what they’ve done over the spate of several seasons, and not solely on this latest one, even if it was an improvement record-wise.
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Oct 2, 2009 2:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s not revisionist at all. I look at the process Sabean goes through to sign players. The process is very, very broken. He still signs old, expensive piece of shit players because they posted 2 months of good batting average at some point, and our offense continues to fail because of it. The signings and trades we get are extremely indicative of the fact that Sabean has no idea how to properly value offense, something any competent GM needs to know, and is why we will not continue to improve past where we are right now in the future with Sabean at the helm.
by Missing Barry on Oct 2, 2009 2:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I doubt that he thinks that. Even the best GM probably would have merely had us back in it last year.
Please hit better, Randy Winn.
by oldjacket on Oct 2, 2009 1:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
YOUR argument, sir, is that the Giants are better than they were last year so Sabean has done a good job. We were terrible last year, and the year before that, and the year before that, and before that. Sabean was equally responsible for those years. How does that make sense that we look at the one good year to evaluate him? That’s the exact type of thinking Sabean used to decide Renteria was a good signing. “Oh, he hit well in the 2nd half last year, so we like him”. It’s flawed.
The important point is why were we bad before? Because we signed terrible veterans who were overpriced and too old and didn’t get on base. What kept us from making the playoffs this season? Terrible old veterans who were overpriced and didn’t get on base. Yes, that’s a fireable offense. Sabean’s shown no progress in his thinking whatsoever.
by Missing Barry on Oct 2, 2009 2:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Instead of working, I just re-read the post game thread for Sanchez’s no hitter because of the Grant appreciation thread. That thread was fucking epic.
Jesse Foppert: I Still Believe. Maybe a little less now.
"I've come to the conclusion that the two most important things in life are good friends and a good bullpen." ~Bob Lemon,
by AndYourBirdCanSing on Oct 2, 2009 1:30 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
God, that was such a freaking awesome night.
Joe Martinez: You are cool.
When it's all said and done, America will be remembered for three things: The Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
by cornball on Oct 2, 2009 4:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Regardless of who's GM and coach...
…we’re still handcuffed by the ridiculous contracts of Zito and Rowand.
by calpolynate on Oct 2, 2009 2:07 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
More like a silk scarf tie around our wrists by a less then pretty girl at 2:30 AM.
Rowand does play almost up to the value of his contract this year. Zito was not Mike Hamptonish either. It doesn’t make them values just minor black holes of suck.
I really think our biggest worry going forward with the Gm & Manger clogging up the 25 & 40 rosters with a bunch of “meh” veterans that could be, by and large, be equaled within house talent over the next 3+ seasons.
That’s it! Katie bar the door for this 79 win team is star crossed! And I am loving it.
by daveinexile on Oct 2, 2009 2:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Are you trying to say that Zito and Rowand aren’t overpaid?
by calpolynate on Oct 2, 2009 2:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He saying the biggest problem is Sabean signing a new Randy Winn, Bengie Molina, etc. to try and “fix” the offense when the current crop of young players could produce just as well for a fraction of the cost.
He’s also saying Zito and Rowand are overpaid, but that are worth something.
by AngelWillSaveUs on Oct 2, 2009 2:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No they are still ugly. I am say they currently would not win an Ugly dog fight. Fangraph current has Rowand down as 1.8 WAR or producing around $8MM this year. He is paid $4MM more then he should so that is not a drastic over pay.
Zito is a 2.1 WAR pitcher worth ~ $ 9.5MM this year. He was paid $18.5 MM so he is over paid by $9MM. Again not good but not crippling. We are not in the Vernon Well or Sarge Jr category were the real ugly dogs live.
What I am say is $12MM over pay this season is a lot more likey to be over taken by signing 3-5 "meh veterans scrubs" to play 2-4 years. First of the "meh veteran scrubs" contact are basically a sunk cost. Secondly the team can’t develop young players to keep the franchise going positively because the "meh veteran scrubs" get all the playing time and thirdly the chance to either trade the developed young players or get compensation picks from them is thrown out as well. All 3 costs make a crop of 3-5 veteran scrubs a very, very, very bad idea and much more damaging then the dreaded Rowand & Zito contracts.
That’s it! Katie bar the door for this 79 win team is star crossed! And I am loving it.
by daveinexile on Oct 2, 2009 3:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
dave roberts was supremely overpaid this year.
I think we can all agree.
by DrStankus on Oct 2, 2009 3:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
that is probably going too far out on the limb…
by capn on Oct 2, 2009 3:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Harsh but fair.
$6.5MM for 0 production.
That’s it! Katie bar the door for this 79 win team is star crossed! And I am loving it.
by daveinexile on Oct 2, 2009 3:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
you want unfair
Dave Roberts – $6.5 to sit home and watch Oprah was a BETTER deal than Renteria, $9M to put up 0.2 WAR.
Renteria was worth roughly NEGATIVE $8M, so that would be $1.5M worse than Roberts, AND takes up a spot on the 25 man.
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
-------
PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game currently in early planning stages.
by zenbitz on Oct 2, 2009 3:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yet they can’t shut him down in July, or August or September to go get fixed and play Uribe. Yeh , Again I’ve come full circle on why Big Head the exact wrong manger for this type of club.
Any ways this just reinforces the point between refusal to use the back up to Renteria properly and Roberts we have more cost over pay on the 2009 then what was paid to Zito & Rowand for what they provided.
That’s it! Katie bar the door for this 79 win team is star crossed! And I am loving it.
by daveinexile on Oct 2, 2009 4:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sabean's Test
2010 will be the first year that they are finally out from under the contracts of the vets that were signed to complement BB. This off-season will be Sabean’s test as to whether he can build an offense without Bonds. Obviously, Bonds presence in the line-up boosted the stats of everyone else, and I wonder if this prevented serious analysis of the rest of the lineup’s actual talent (kind of like a Coors Field effect).
by Keith0909 on Oct 2, 2009 2:11 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
So what you’re saying is we should expect more signings like Renteria, since he was our first positional FA signing in the post-Bonds era?
by Missing Barry on Oct 2, 2009 2:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would say Rowand was the first post-Bonds positional signing.
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Oct 2, 2009 2:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And he was pretty much signed to be Not Barry Bonds.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
by jcb9 on Oct 2, 2009 2:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Mission accomplished.
El Presidente Larry Baer's epitaph
"Nothing important ever happened without me."
by ResDog on Oct 2, 2009 3:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
SUCCESS!!
Mustache. Grow one. - Steve Balboni
by jhiat00 on Oct 2, 2009 3:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
/tears up Sabean contract. New 10-year deal!
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Oct 2, 2009 3:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bochy should be
a pitching coach.
Mischievously implosive purple pitching staff.
by SloIsLonelyForTheOrange on Oct 2, 2009 2:13 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Bochy should be an armchair manager, like the rest of us…
by Missing Barry on Oct 2, 2009 2:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bochy should be an armchair manager, like the rest of us…
Mustache. Grow one. - Steve Balboni
by jhiat00 on Oct 2, 2009 2:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bochy should be tied to an armchair and dropped into the grizzly bear cage at the zoo manager, like the rest of us…
by capn on Oct 2, 2009 2:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bochy should be tied to an armchair and dropped into the grizzly bear cage at the zoo manager, like the rest of us…
by Sabean's_Folly on Oct 2, 2009 4:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Joe Posnanski
"One of the more frustrating things about being a fan is when you root for a team that so clearly has a different philosophy about sports than you have about sports."
I refer, of course, to the Giants’ Cartesian dualism and my causal determinism.
by Your mother on Oct 2, 2009 2:22 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
The Royals believe in Scientology.
Please hit better, Randy Winn.
by oldjacket on Oct 2, 2009 2:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Pirates believe in Juche. With similar results.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
by jcb9 on Oct 2, 2009 2:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The dodgers eat thier young.
Mustache. Grow one. - Steve Balboni
by jhiat00 on Oct 2, 2009 2:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
FWIW
Big rumor down here is that Kevin Towers could be fired on Monday. Personally, I don’t buy it though.
by NeifiChicken on Oct 2, 2009 2:23 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
His name would certainly lend itself to some fun photos.
by calpolynate on Oct 2, 2009 2:44 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
But Sabean’s biggest problem this off-season will be deciding between Russell Branyan and Garret Anderson.
by Every6thDay on Oct 2, 2009 2:51 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
It could be...
…worse. The Orioles are the Prozac of Baseball Franchises.
by capn on Oct 2, 2009 3:09 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
not really...
they have one of the most promising young cores in baseball. I’d trade all of our players for all of theirs
by NeifiChicken on Oct 2, 2009 3:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would not. It would be hard not to have good young players after the 10+ years of shit. Peter Angelos will find a way to fuck it up. Trust me!
by capn on Oct 2, 2009 3:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
they’ve done the rebuild in the right way. Yes, they take their lumps, but they’ve gotten rid of price/aging vets or soon to be FAs and gone with the kids, a lot of whom happen to be really good. It won’t be long, though, before they’re competing again, if they keep up the strategy and build around those guys.
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Oct 2, 2009 3:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Could not agree less. They will not be better until Peter Angelos dies or sells the team. Taking their lumps is one way to put it. Since their last winning season (in 1998, they are 235 games under 500). They are an embarssment.
by capn on Oct 2, 2009 3:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Could not agree less. They will not be better until Peter Angelos dies or sells the team. Taking their lumps is one way to put it. Since their last winning season (in 1998), they are 235 games under 500. They are an embarssment.
by capn on Oct 2, 2009 3:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Went to a few games at Camden this year. It’s shocking how empty the place is. One of the most sneakable ballparks I’ve been to.
They’re black and orange. We’re black and orange. Let’s merge. I would take their offense & our pitching.
by Your mother on Oct 2, 2009 3:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’d mix and match some of the pitching.
I mean, I’d happily dump Zito and our fifth starter for Tillman and Matusz.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
by jponry on Oct 2, 2009 3:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If we can mix and match…. shall we move Posey or Wieters to 1st?
by Your mother on Oct 2, 2009 3:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
C: Wieters
1B: Sandoval
2B: Brian Roberts
SS: ??
3B: Posey
OF: Reimold, Jones, Markakis, Scott, Pie
Lincecum
Cain
Matsuz
Tillman
Sanchez
+Giants bullpen
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
by jponry on Oct 2, 2009 3:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The O’s do also have Josh Bell, who looks like a decent 3B prospect, so you could move Posey to SS (LOL) or something.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
by jponry on Oct 2, 2009 3:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fuck. I’m kind of salivating. So: home games in Puerto Rico?
Hell, put Uribe at SS.
by Your mother on Oct 2, 2009 3:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I grew up in Baltimore. I went to the WS as a kid in 1979 and in 1983. I left there in 1998 and started rooting for the Giants basically because of the fact that they were in different leagues and sort of looked alike. What has happened to that franchise is criminal. After the Colts left in 1983, they owned the region. It is very sad to me.
by capn on Oct 2, 2009 3:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
My impression is similar… but am I wrong, or hasn’t their management made some decent moves lately?
by Your mother on Oct 2, 2009 3:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think they’re on the right track. But Peter Angelos is definitely an organizational cancer.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
by jponry on Oct 2, 2009 3:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m guessing Camden Chat holds a less nuanced opinion of the fellow.
by Your mother on Oct 2, 2009 3:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cancer is too kind a word…
He euthanized one of the all time great franchises.
by capn on Oct 2, 2009 3:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The CW was that McPhail is great and that the Angelos boys have been generally leaving him alone, but the fact is that the old man and the boys will no doubt make some impetuous move at exactly the wrong time and fuck it all up. There is simply no other way to explain how bad they have been. If it were not for the Pirates, the the Orioles wretchedness over the past 12 seasons would be truly unprecedented.
by capn on Oct 2, 2009 3:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The CW also seems to be that Baltimore & Toronto, being in the AL East, have to make risky moves in order to lunge for the playoffs once in a while. I wouldn’t want Angelos at the controls of my Lunge Machine.
by Your mother on Oct 2, 2009 3:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You nailed it. He hates New York and has been killing himself and the team ever since Jeffrey Maier stole game 1 of the 1996 ALDS (I was at that game too). He is really a lunatic. I know him personally (and hope he is not reading this)…
by capn on Oct 2, 2009 3:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
They averaged between 43,000 and 46,000 fans from ’92 when they moved to Camden until 1998. Since then, the average attendance has gone down steadily each year and this year was 23,705. That is the lowest it has been since 1988 when they lost 107 games. Thank you Peter Angelos!
by capn on Oct 2, 2009 4:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You know what else sucks?
Finally having a plan which includes drafting and retaining young talent, paying good money in signing bonuses, playing a couple of those young guys, being somewhat aggressive with promotions, and then turning it all around and selling off two of the most promising guys you have in the farm system for a one-trick pony and an Orthopedist’s teaching manual so that you can save your own ass and pay for professional goatee trimming.
You know what is even worse? Being rewarded for it. Fuck Neukom. I am over (ok, not really) blaming Sabean and Bochy – they are idiots and will not learn because if the saying “cant’ teach an old dog new tricks” ever applied to anybody, it applies to personnel in Major League Baseball. Flailing against a brick wall while somewhat gratifying, is pointless.
But Neukom is supposed to be smart. He is a fan. He hires people. He has the ability to take this team into the 21st century, but he doesn’t have the balls or refuses to educate himself enough to understand that Bochy and Sabean have clear deficiencies when it comes to evaluating talent.
This team was better this year than it had any right to be. It was better than it should have been with the talent it had, and it had more talent than it should have had. 2009 should have been a bridge year, but since “we’re in this thing”, we played the trade youngsters for oldies broken record again, and now the future is looking less shiny. Bochy and Sabean are retained and the prospect for improvement of the offense vanishing as the young players wither away or are traded away for scraps.
Ok, so I’m not having a great day…
/autodefenestrates
something something jhiat00 will swindle
Young Studs for Old Bats: The Brian Sabean Story
FREE KEVIN FRANDSEN!!! Member of the Frandsen 5% Club.
by Uribe nee Gonzalez on Oct 2, 2009 3:23 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
My wish is for the Giants to win the World Series next year.
GROUGTHINK ALERT
The first Chester Arthur fanboy ever.
by groug on Oct 2, 2009 3:25 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I’ll take winning the World Series before I die of old age.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
by jcb9 on Oct 2, 2009 3:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
29
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
by jcb9 on Oct 2, 2009 3:44 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
no UR5
Mustache. Grow one. - Steve Balboni
by jhiat00 on Oct 2, 2009 3:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
but he has rage issues
We're all basically Pedro Feliz.
by SF Pete on Oct 2, 2009 3:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m 40 so I guess that means I miss it… Bummer
by capn on Oct 2, 2009 3:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, I didn’t say it had to be JUST before I die of old age. Just at some point between now and then.
Brian Sabean wants to kick tires. I want to kick Brian Sabean.
Adopted Giant: FREDEMPTION Lewis
by jcb9 on Oct 2, 2009 3:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Aurilia, going all in at the last minute, gets an Ace on the river and wins with World Series.
by Giant Voodoo on Oct 2, 2009 3:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I refuse to believe that this written by Grant and instead ascribe to the theory that that Bochy and Sabean hired Russian ninjas to kidnap Grant and are now writing blog entries under Grant’s name.
Joe Martinez: You are cool.
When it's all said and done, America will be remembered for three things: The Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
by cornball on Oct 2, 2009 3:35 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Russian ninjas
DO WANT
"There he goes. One of god's own prototypes. Some kind of high powered mutant never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die."
by KINGofCRA5H on Oct 2, 2009 3:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
can they play CF?
Mustache. Grow one. - Steve Balboni
by jhiat00 on Oct 2, 2009 3:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dude, they are RUSSIAN NINJAS! They can do whatever they want.
Joe Martinez: You are cool.
When it's all said and done, America will be remembered for three things: The Bill of Rights, jazz, and baseball.
by cornball on Oct 2, 2009 4:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Is this right?
coming off the books for 2010:
Winn: 9,600,000
Johnson: 8,000,000
Molina: 6,500,000
Lowry: 4,750,000
Affeldt: 3,500,000
Howry: 2,750,000
Aurliia: 1,000,000
That’s a total of just over $35M. I realize some of these guys might be coming back, so we’ll spend some of that money on them, and on some of the pitching(Timmy). What does that leave us with, and who can we get with what’s left?
by calpolynate on Oct 2, 2009 3:41 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
You might find this fanpost useful.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
by jponry on Oct 2, 2009 3:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs