Worst Defensive seasons: Giants 02-09
Was looking at previous UZR numbers and wondered if people could guess which Giants put up the worst 7 defensive seasons over this period? There are two multiple offenders so you're looking for 5 players. These are total UZR so will be dependent on playing time.
about 1 month ago
GiantFan
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I did something like this last year but only until 2008.
Dave Roberts (in CF) and Maqruiss Grissom were pretty bad on defense.
by xanthan on Oct 15, 2009 7:09 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I knew someone must have done it before. The (unsurprising) additions to your lists for this year would be WInn and Sandoval.
Yeah, Grissom was pretty terrible holding the two worst seasons (in UZR although not in UZR/150)
Proud parent of Waldis Joaquin!
by GiantFan on Oct 15, 2009 7:26 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I remember watching Grip play CF for the Giants. It wasn’t a pretty sight. I just remember ball after ball falling in front of him. He just didn’t have the leg speed to play CF at that point in his career.
Winn is awesome. I’ll be interested to see how the next person playing RF handles the position. Winn made it look pretty easy during his time with the Giants.
by xanthan on Oct 15, 2009 7:50 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Winn is definitely a good RF, and in our park we should always have a good defensive RF. I have my questions about how well RF translates to UZR, though. I think our park might inflate RF UZR numbers. Some reasons I think this may be true:
Winn has a career 2.9 UZR/150 in LF in over 3,000 innings. Most of these innings came when Winn should have been in his prime on the Rays and Mariners. Obviously someone can improve defensively over time, but you have to figure he’s lost a step or two from back then.
Winn is a career -1.2 UZR/150 CF (5,600+ innings), which is actually pretty good and that confirms to me that he really is good defensively since CF’ers are such good defenders. The two years he got over 1,000 innings there were 2002 and 2004, so not too long before he came to the Giants. Since he joined the Giants, however, his CF play has been pretty bad (relative to CF’ers), though caveat for SSS.
Winn didn’t really play any RF until he came to the Giants, and since he’s been pretty off the charts. I wish he had gotten more time in LF for the Giants so we actually had a comparison for him, but at least in the limited sample size in LF for us he’s also posted ridiculous numbers. Maybe that means his RF defense is for real, maybe not, I don’t know.
For these reasons I question whether he’s really as good defensively as the numbers say. I have no doubt he is a well above average RF’er (RF’ers aren’t exactly known for their D, after all), but I’m just not sure he’s quite as good as the numbers say. I’m looking forward to our next RF to see how he rates.
by Missing Barry on Oct 15, 2009 8:02 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I want to know if there’s a way to get the UZR for all of the opposing right fielders at Mays Field. In theory, it should come out close to 0.0, right? I have a feeling it wouldn’t.
I appreciate Winn’s RF coverage, but there’s no way he’s a net positive for a team when he’s playing a corner.
by Grant on Oct 15, 2009 9:44 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
there’s no way he’s a net positive for a team when he’s playing a corner.
You could say the same thing about Nate Clements!
Note: I actually think Clements gets a bad rap, and all corners get burned by number-one receivers. Still, this last game was not fun.
Context, people. More context is good. Less context is bad. If you're willing to be reductive, then you're willing to be wrong.
by howtheyscored on Oct 15, 2009 10:01 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That’s interesting. I actually bet it would come out slightly negative.I think RF in AT&T has a learning curve.
Please hit better, Randy Winn.
by oldjacket on Oct 15, 2009 11:03 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
UZR is park-adjusted, so the UZR for all of the opposing right fielders at AT&T is, by definition, 0.0.
HA HA HA LOOK AT ME I'M ALL HAPPY AND STUFF NO REALLY CAN WE STOP WITH THE COOKYMAN IS SAD JOKES?
:-) :-) :-)
by Cookyman on Oct 17, 2009 6:10 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think our park might inflate RF UZR numbers. Some reasons I think this may be true:
I am not sure "inflate" is the right term here. UZR , by it’s nature is ment to emphise range. RF at Mays Field demands the fielder cover a lot of ground if he is going to defend it well. To me it seems a perfect match of a metric meeting a real life condition. Maybe I am just babbleing to myself though. Again.
Who’s brain did you bring me?
Brain SabeanOranother.
by daveinexile on Oct 15, 2009 10:28 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That might be a fair point. I honestly don’t know enough to even speculate whether it’s simply giving someone like Winn a chance to use his strengths more often (and thus actually produce better), or just has some weird issues that inflate his theoretical contributions relative to what he’s actually contributing. If we assume his UZR goes up in RF at AT&T for him, can we at least agree that that would inflate the perception of his “true talent level”?
I think in time as we get the chance to see more players in RF for the Giants we’ll figure out more about it’s effects…
by Missing Barry on Oct 15, 2009 11:57 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with your summary.
Personly if the Giatns had a “good fielding” RF ( useing eyes and perception) that was low in UZR i would be very inclined to think UZR has a seriuos issue. It would like kind of a guy that gets 125 BB a season and a terrible OBP.
Who’s brain did you bring me?
Brain SabeanOranother.
by daveinexile on Oct 15, 2009 2:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It is an interesting question as i do understand the question as to whether his numbers are slightly inflated. The only way to find out is to look at other players playing the position but that’ll take a while to find out.
Another thought is that RF is pretty harsh on fly-balls and so i wonder whether it gives the fielder more opportunities than the average park. Of course UZR is supposed to be park corrected but I’m not sure how the park corrections are done.
Proud parent of Waldis Joaquin!
by GiantFan on Oct 16, 2009 3:09 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well I dunno anything about how they may or may not park correct for things, but I do know how to figure out if a player is getting more or less opportunities than they should. Look at their UZR/150 – the denominator is not actually 150 games for it, but rather the number of expected opportunities a player would get over the course of 150 games. The perfect example is Franklin Gutierrez. He lead all players in UZR by a substantial amount. His UZR was 28.5 in 153 games. His UZR/150, though, was only 19.2. This indicates that he received about 50% more opportunities than expected. So just looking at UZR/150 takes care of that problem.
by Missing Barry on Oct 16, 2009 9:57 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks, good point. In Winn’s case he did get more opportunities than expected but it wasn’t a huge effect and he had a UZR/150 of 15.5 (16.6 the previous year).
Proud parent of Waldis Joaquin!
by GiantFan on Oct 16, 2009 10:19 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
without looking, I bet Moises Alou was pretty bad
Please hit better, Randy Winn.
by oldjacket on Oct 15, 2009 8:35 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Depending on how you use PEE can negativley affect UZR
I R 5
by say hey nation on Oct 15, 2009 8:45 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, his UZR might not have been pretty, but it’s a good bet that his PEE rating for RF was off the charts.
Context, people. More context is good. Less context is bad. If you're willing to be reductive, then you're willing to be wrong.
by howtheyscored on Oct 15, 2009 10:02 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Moises Alou isn’t one of the five. Surprisingly he was around average in 2005 according to UZR. In 2006 he was one of the worst but wasn’t OMG terrible and also missed a lot of playing time.
Proud parent of Waldis Joaquin!
by GiantFan on Oct 15, 2009 8:47 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t remember thinking “Man, that’s ugly” until his last year.
Please hit better, Randy Winn.
by oldjacket on Oct 15, 2009 9:16 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Alou is another case that makes me think weird things happen with UZR in RF at AT&T. His LF UZR/150 was 7.5 in 576 innings in 2005 (-29.3 in 79 innings in 2006), but in RF he was at -12.2 in 412.2 innings in 2005 and -6.7 in 646.2 innings in 2006. Small sample sizes all around, so if I’m being technical I doubt I can reach any real conclusions from any of that, but it just seems like there might be some big disparity in UZR depending on whether you play LF and RF at AT&T. They’re virtually the same position – I’d expect a fielders ability to stay roughly the same in both places, and while the peer group changes, I can’t image the average ability of LF and RF players are very different….so I dunno. Need more sample size…
by Missing Barry on Oct 15, 2009 12:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
GIVING UP COUNTLESS RUNS ON DEFENSE
Context, people. More context is good. Less context is bad. If you're willing to be reductive, then you're willing to be wrong.
by howtheyscored on Oct 15, 2009 8:12 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Juan Uribe is good at 3B. According to fangraphs.
Matt Cain: throwing complete game shutouts since 06'. No big deal.
by cain1rstballothof on Oct 15, 2009 9:40 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I Am Betting JT Snow Was One Of The Multiple Offenders
Now I will go to fangraphs and see if I am right and who the other multiple offender was.
by giantsrainman on Oct 15, 2009 10:05 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I Am Finding Only 1 Multiple Offender - Marquis Grissom Who Was The Worst All Three Years He Played With Us.
2002 JT Snow -12.4 in 113 DG at 1B.
2003 Marquis Grissom -6.3 in 131 DG in CF.
2004 Marquis Grissom -17.7 in 138 DG in CF.
2005 Marquis Grissom -13.7 in 30 DG in CF.
2006 Barry Bonds -5.4 in 102 DG in LF.
2007 Dave Roberts -12.1 in 99 DG in CF.
2008 Aaron Rowand -6.5 in 162 DG in CF.
2009 Eugerio Velez -4.7 in 40 DG at 2B.
by giantsrainman on Oct 15, 2009 10:25 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I think it’s worst overall. Not worst every individual year.
Context, people. More context is good. Less context is bad. If you're willing to be reductive, then you're willing to be wrong.
by howtheyscored on Oct 15, 2009 10:39 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah it’s worst overall and not by individual year so as to punish more fairly. The seven worst individual years are:
-17.7 Marquis Grissom (2004)
-13.7 Marquis Grissom (2005)
-12.4 JT Snow (2002)
-12.1 Dave Roberts (2007)
-9.5 Barry Bonds (2006)
-8.7 Barry Bonds (2007)
-6.6 Edgardo Alfonzo (2005)
So Grissom and Bonds were the two repeat offenders and Alfonzo was the only one who wasn’t mentioned.
Proud parent of Waldis Joaquin!
by GiantFan on Oct 16, 2009 3:17 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
How do you have repeat offenders if its worst overall
I R 5
by say hey nation on Oct 16, 2009 6:15 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry, i meant it’s worst overall defensive seasons (hence multiple offenders) and not who was the worst offender in each season (as per giantsrainman).
Proud parent of Waldis Joaquin!
by GiantFan on Oct 16, 2009 6:24 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Got you. I am really dense today.
I R 5
by say hey nation on Oct 16, 2009 6:41 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I thought you meant worst over ALL the seasons, or you added the season UZR’s together.
I R 5
by say hey nation on Oct 16, 2009 6:43 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah looking at my reply i can see why you thought that. It would be interesting to look at that as well although it’d only be useful for comparing recent players!
Proud parent of Waldis Joaquin!
by GiantFan on Oct 16, 2009 6:56 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Best defensive years
Producing a similar list for those in that period (who were better than 10 runs above) you get the following:
20.8 Pedro Feliz (2007)
20.2 Omar Vizquel (2007)
18.3 Pedro Feliz (2005)
17.4 Randy Winn (2009)
17.4 Randy Winn (2008)
14.7 Pedro Feliz (2006)
13.2 Jose Cruz (2003)
12.7 Barry Bonds (2003)
11.7 Reggie Sanders (2002)
10.4 Travis Ishikawa (2009)
11.4 Randy Winn (2006)
Not a very surprising list as they’re mostly all good defensive players. Interesting to see Vizquel on their only once and looking at his numbers UZR really didn’t rate him as highly as you’d expect (aside from 2007 obviously).
Proud parent of Waldis Joaquin!
by GiantFan on Oct 16, 2009 3:25 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
What about looking at UZR/150 years (for guys who played 130 or so+ games) for the opportunities reason I discussed above?
by Missing Barry on Oct 16, 2009 10:00 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That’s certainly a better way of determining ability (due to variable playing time as well as opportunities as you mention). I was merely looking for who ended up costing us the most runs defensively (Bonds for example would rate lower as he didn’t play as much)
Proud parent of Waldis Joaquin!
by GiantFan on Oct 16, 2009 10:23 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fair enough, it’s a true point of course. I’d just like to see if UZR/150 changes anything – maybe we find someone like Vizquel just wasn’t getting many opportunities since we didn’t have a GB staff, you know?
by Missing Barry on Oct 16, 2009 10:34 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
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