This last trade deadline, the giants were going for the playoffs for the first time in years. To maximize their chances, the management decided to trade for two players to help the offense at multiple positions. In retrospect, neither acquisition really did much to help the team down the strech.
How different would our chances have been if we traded for one impact player rather than two modest upgrades. I'm thinkin we missed the bus on Victor Martinez. The indians obviously liked Barnes, add Alderson and another minor piece (Guzman, Lewis, Peuctas, random cast off) and I bet we had a deal. Roster with Pandamanic and V Mart to build on this offseason would make our 2010 outlook much brighter. Its amazing the management that rode BLB's back for so many years doesn't realize that you need special, impact players to play in October. Who do you all think we should target this offseason to fill the void and push this team up a notch?
P.S. Trade Cain proposals are lame
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sometimes it’s just luck though. Victor Martinez wasn’t having that much better a year than Ryan Garko and one got hot and the other went cold. Don’t forget that Garko switched leagues and had to learn a bunch of new pitchers, something Victor Martinez didn’t have to do. Finally, your package to acquire Martinez is wrong. Sabean came right out and said at one point that Victor Martinez would have cost us Bumgarner.
No Edgar, it's not your fault, it's the fault of the idiot that plays you
not that I think we should have traded for him
but victor martinez was having an infinitely better year than Garko before the trade, maybe you should go back and check his stats again.
no he wasn't
Martinez with the Indians: .284/.368/.484, 15 HR, 56 RBI, 2.8 WAR (with a lot of that coming because he played over half of his games at catcher, which he would not have played as a member of the Giants)
Garko with the Indians: .285/.362/.464, 11 HR, 39 RBI, 1.3 WAR
Martinez is, yes, slightly better, but is ~25 points of OPS (since they would have both played mostly 1B as members of the Giants) really worth the difference between Barnes and Bumgarner?
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
I know you nerds know NOTHING about the real game of baseball, or any other athletic endeavor requiring teamwork under physical stress.
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Who could’ve guessed that Victor Martinez would hit better than Ryan Garko in the second half of 2009?
Nobody likes money
Well, they were both terrible in 2008, so I don’t know how much of a conclusion you’d draw on that. And, again, Martinez went to Fenway Park, which does make a difference.
No one’s still answered whether those 25 points of OPS at the time (and Garko wasn’t hitting outside of his realm of possibility) is worth the difference between Barnes and Bumgarner.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
J, I hope you’re not saying that Victor Martinez isn’t a MUCH better hitter than Ryan Garko.
I do think you can question whether or not he’s the equivalent of Madison Bumgarner better than Ryan Garko.
"The part of the roster where most of the money is spent, though, is on free agents and guys acquired through trade — guys Sabean did play a big role in acquiring. And they are not good. When you get 2/5 of a pitching rotation for free, you would think you could do better with $76 million than to field the league’s worst offense."
-Taliesin September, 2009
The difference certainly isn’t worth the difference between Barnes and Bumgarner in my opinion. I was never a fan of trading for Martinez because he isn’t actually worth it unless you’re playing him at catcher (which we weren’t going to).
He’s still a decent 1B but he no longer becomes the great player that you’d require him to be if you’re giving up Bumgarner (or equivalent talent).
Proud parent of Waldis Joaquin!
Just to carry on what RX is saying for a bit then toss out something else…
I would have loved to gotten Hardy instead of either one of those two (Garko or Fred Sanchez) or even more then both. But then I am just an old fashioned baseball fan that think solid up the middle defense is necessary to get anywhere in a playoff race.
/shrugs
As for possible trade candidates I still look at Hardy. At some point the Fish will realize the teams look at Uggla and see a guy that should play a corner spot but as no experience there. The Fish will also tire of paying him and adjest their demands. I could be real happy with Uggla at first next year.
Who’s brain did you bring me?
Brain SabeanOranother.
thanks for the feedback. As for offseason targets I think Uggla could be a really nice addition, probably at 3rd assuming Sanchez returns. Alternatively, I would look into Nelson Cruz of the Rangers or Joey Votto, see what they would cost, or signing one of Holliday/Bay probably just wishful thinking though.
As for V Mart, is MadBum really paying that much more than Alderson + Barnes?
I don’t see the Reds letting Vatto go for anything less than a blow them out of the water type offer.
I am not a big Bay fan this off season. That makes our left side defense ( Panda, Renteria & Bay) extremely flammable. I have large doubts his Stick out ways the late innings chances his glove would have.
Uggla I would move to 1st. He has good hands and that mid 350’s wOBA he posted this season makes him on par league average 1st base offensive output. That would be like the 3rd or 4th time in the last 15 years we get league average offense from 1st base. Before anyone wants to cry about him not being over 6 foot neither were Pete Rose or Rod Carew. A sub 6’1" can work well enough over there. While I am at it to the heck with resale value. If other teams thought Uggla could stick at 2nd they would have already traded for him.
The Rangers are in the midst of selling. Historically a selling team is either shedding off high pay roll or basically holding pat. Neither scenario bodes well for Cruz moving to us.
As for Madison , yes that would have been an insane over pay. The Indians were starting with Madison. Not just Madison
Who’s brain did you bring me?
Brain SabeanOranother.
by daveinexile on Oct 10, 2009 11:33 AM PDT up reply actions
I agree with moving Uggla to first. I don’t understand why a lot of people say he is too short for 1B and that the solution would be moving him to 3B and Sandoval to 1B. Do people not realize Uggla and the Panda are both 5’11"? And that if Uggla is a slighty below average 2B that he is probably not going to be better at third?
Bleeding orange and black since 1987
by TehGreekStallion on Oct 10, 2009 12:29 PM PDT up reply actions
If you move Uggla to first it’s pretty likely that he’s going to be a butcher, at least initially.
If he’s horribly defensively, is his .826 OPS really all that much of an improvement. I’m okay with Uggla, but only as a second baseman.
As for Votto, he would be one of the few guys I’d consider trading Cain for.
by Wonderful Terrific Monds on Oct 10, 2009 3:03 PM PDT up reply actions
To my eye Uggla’s hands are alright. He moves to his right ok , for a none middle infielder, not so much to his left. Now I could be wrong or falling victim to SSS.
What makes you think his questionable glove work is easier to hide at 2nd? It goes against anything I know about baseball and against positional defensive adjustment numbers. Uglla has to play a corner or your team has to have very good defenders around him or your team I not seriously trying to play for the post season.
Who’s brain did you bring me?
Brain SabeanOranother.
Fair enough.
I just can’t see a team leaving him in middle infield w/o a lot a very good fielders around him or basically admitting they are not aiming for the post season. Where 1st, 3rd & LF ( RF for some teams) would be places you could mitigate his glove work and still keep his stick.
Who’s brain did you bring me?
Brain SabeanOranother.
At this point I wished the Giants had not been in the playoff hunt as long as they were. Sabean must have felt he had to do something. As it turned out, and has turned out for many years now, what he does at the trade deadline is nothing but waste young talent. Ideally, the Giants should have dealt the minor league pitching surplus for a minor league hitting prospect. Now that have blown a hole in their minor league pitching depth and cannot makes such a deal, or at least a deal that will amount to anything.
But Bork! can’t use minor league hitters!
/ tongue in check
Who’s brain did you bring me?
Brain SabeanOranother.
by daveinexile on Oct 10, 2009 11:34 AM PDT up reply actions
Why Are so Many So Willing To Conclude Already That Both Freddy Sanchez And Ryan Garko Suck?
I hear here all the time that the Giants are too quick to give up on youngsters because of bad small sample size results and yet so many of those with this complaint are guilty right now of doing the same to Freddy Sanchez and Ryan Garko. Both are in the primes and both have a much larger sample size of sucess with their previous major league teams. The fact is that the odds favor these two returning to their first half 2009 form in 2010 for the Giants.
Rainman why do you think Sanchez will be different then his track record?
Who’s brain did you bring me?
Brain SabeanOranother.
I Think He Will Match His Track Record But Has Proven Upside To Do Even Better.
Over his five years as a starting 2B Freddy has averaged 2.9 WAR per year with a peak year of 4.8 WAR.
by giantsrainman on Oct 10, 2009 6:51 PM PDT up reply actions
I look at the over 50% swing rate for the last 4 seasons, that low walk rate ( making him extremely BABIP dependant), It has been since ’06 or ’07 since he posted a league average ( or better) wOBA add in his age ( 32 next season) and injury issues in the last 3 season And I see guy worth taking a flier on but not worth spending a fair amount for money one. Unlike last season’s SS & Renteria situation there are other option avail be from outside the franchise.
Unlike last season’s SS & Renteria situation there are other option available from outside the franchise. If the base is low and the incentives high am cool with it be not anywhere near what is be batted about.
Who’s brain did you bring me?
Brain SabeanOranother.
Your Problem Is That You Still Live In The Past Where Defense Barely Matters.
This seems to be a common mistake of many in the McCoven. Sabean is playing moneyball by going after defense as the market still undervalues it (as you do). The market however seems to be catching up faster then you are and for that matter many others here in the McCoven.
by giantsrainman on Oct 11, 2009 3:23 PM PDT up reply actions
Raiman: I undervalue defense? You need to stop guzzling old bong water dude.
You need to acknowledge the market this winter provides a half dozen players can give us good glove work at second base and most of them will be getting paid less them $5MM.
Who’s brain did you bring me?
Brain SabeanOranother.
I Very Much Doubt If A Higher Average Annual WAR 2B Signs For Less Then F.Sanchez.
The man has averaged providing 2.9 WAR a year for the last 5 years and is very likely to do so again in 2010 and for that matter 2011.
by giantsrainman on Oct 11, 2009 8:57 PM PDT up reply actions
LOL living in the past
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
GET THAT VORP AND WHIP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!
Garko, maybe, but I think it’d be pretty easy to argue, given the history of similar players at that age, that Freddy Sanchez is not in his prime.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
I See Prime Years As Age 27 To 33.
Freddy too is in this age range though admittedly 3 years older then Ryan.. Sanchez will be 32 next season while Garko will be 29.
by giantsrainman on Oct 10, 2009 6:58 PM PDT up reply actions
Prime isn’t the same for every player and between the injuries and the fates of players similar to him, it’s not very difficult to think that Sanchez’s best years are behind him.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"AT LAST I AM A PARENTS." - Buster
Oh, I agree He Is likely To Run Out of Gas Somewhere Around 35 And Not Make It To 40.
That said, I would be shocked if he did so next year in his age 32 season.
by giantsrainman on Oct 10, 2009 11:24 PM PDT up reply actions
Sanchez done ran out of gas in his age 31 season. Right it, take a picture, I don’ t give a …….
Matt Cain: throwing complete game shutouts since 06'. No big deal.
by cain1rstballothof on Oct 10, 2009 11:50 PM PDT up reply actions
I don’t think the original poster or most people here think they suck. I think the argument is that they are not difference makers that we traded serious prospects for.
by AndYourBirdCanSing on Oct 10, 2009 5:46 PM PDT up reply actions
exactly
and those two guys are the reason we will not be going after uggla b/c we’d have first and second “filled” (to sabean that is).
just for fun, how about this trade: cain, wilson, and kieschnick for carl crawford, bj upton and jeremy hellickson…let the bashing begin
by speedyt72000 on Oct 10, 2009 10:30 PM PDT up reply actions
The Giants Don't Consider 1B Filled By The ishikawa/Garko Platoon.
Yes, Sanchez fills 2B but having him does not prevent the Giants from going with an infield of Uggla 1B, Sanchez 2B, Sandoval 3B, and Renteria SS, with Garko and Ishikawa on the bench. Now re-signing Uribe with a commitment to make him the starting 3B would block getting Uggla. But, I think it is possible that we can get Uribe to re-sign with just a 400+ PA commitment and then we would still have room for Uggla. We would also have a pretty good bench with Uribe, Garko, and Ishikawa among the members.
That said, the Giants do need to look long at hard at weither Uggla is enough of an upgrade over a platoon of Ishikawa/Garko to justify the cost of such a trade in talent and dollars. I for one think that they might be better off focusing this talent to trade and dollars on a rightharded hitting outfielder that is a more significant upgrade over what we have available in house.
by giantsrainman on Oct 10, 2009 11:42 PM PDT up reply actions
I really don’t think the Giants would, nor should, carry Uribe, Garko, Ishii, and another 1B/3B type on the 25 man.
I am also very curious as to who they keep between Garko and Ishii. I’d personally keep Garko. But I suspect they’ll let an accuisition dictate that for them, with Bochey’s fondness of platoon’s and all.
Matt Cain: throwing complete game shutouts since 06'. No big deal.
by cain1rstballothof on Oct 10, 2009 11:55 PM PDT up reply actions
Replace Crawford with Jennings, and Hellickson with Price, and I’d probably put my finger on the trigger.
Matt Cain: throwing complete game shutouts since 06'. No big deal.
by cain1rstballothof on Oct 10, 2009 11:59 PM PDT up reply actions
reply fail
Matt Cain: throwing complete game shutouts since 06'. No big deal.
by cain1rstballothof on Oct 10, 2009 11:59 PM PDT up reply actions
I know he F-up in the playoffs, but I wanted to see the Giants take a swing at Matt Holliday.
FIRE BRUCE BOCHY NOW!!!!!!
AND TAKE BRIAN SABEAN WITH HIM!!!!!
Look on the bright side
Maybe the Cardinals are pissed enough about that one comic nut-shot to cool on re-signing him.
Probably not, though.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
Even if the error didn’t turn them off, (and it probably didn’t) the disappointing over all playoff performance and the fact that the agent is Scott Boras puts Holliday into play for the Giants and any other team that might be interested. It’s hard to judge what the Giants’ are going to do this offseason though. I just listened to that Neukom interview on KNBR and I’m still clinging to hope that Sabean and Bochy won’t be back. Ralph asked him straight out to confirm or deny the Shea story and Neukom said that article was “speculation.” I believe their contracts expire Oct 31, and if nothing is in place by then, we get the additional hope that they find better deals elsewhere. Supposedly Neukom is still waiting for Sabean to sit down with him and discuss the future, and if Neukom is anything like us fans who listened to the post season press conference, he’s not going to like what he hears.
No Edgar, it's not your fault, it's the fault of the idiot that plays you
I doubt Neukom is really anything like the fans on this site, in analysis or goals. Still, he seems smart… damn you for nurturing the hope that will be crushed when they re-hire Sabes and his henchman.
Utter frustration and futility.
by Johnny Disaster on Oct 11, 2009 9:40 AM PDT up reply actions
I would be surprised, if over time, it doesn’t come out he is a bit more stat friendly. The man made living having to shift though data and present the correct points to support a position. To me that makes him a bit less disinclined to well presented stats.
Who’s brain did you bring me?
Brain SabeanOranother.
by daveinexile on Oct 11, 2009 10:17 AM PDT up reply actions
Try this again. Please ingnore above.
I would be surprised, if over time, it doesn’t come out he is a bit more stat friendly. The man made living having to shift though data and present the correct points to support a position. To me that makes him a bit less disinclined to ignore well presented stats.
Who’s brain did you bring me?
Brain SabeanOranother.
by daveinexile on Oct 11, 2009 10:18 AM PDT up reply actions
That may be true – I certainly do think it’s probable that he is quite smart as Microsoft has a reputation for hiring very smart people and then getting out of their way. But…
The desire around here is for championships, but he (and/or the ownership group) may feel differently, especially with the passing of Harmon and Sue Burns. If profit is the ultimate goal, it may be decided that merely contending enough to maintain attendance/ratings without breaking the bank is the proper strategy going forward. Then Sabean’s track record of ‘meanigful’ games well into September might look pretty attractive.
Utter frustration and futility.
by Johnny Disaster on Oct 12, 2009 9:51 PM PDT up reply actions
I fear 70’s & 80’s "Cubs-itis" as well. I just think it will take a few years into his reign to see which way he is leaning.
Who’s brain did you bring me?
Brain SabeanOranother.
by daveinexile on Oct 13, 2009 10:23 AM PDT up reply actions
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