The Giants and Orlando Hudson, Take Two
by Grant on Jan 9, 2009 12:43 PM PST
104 comments
Pablo Sandoval at third? Okay. I’ll pretend that I’m not worried about his defense and hope for the best. The Giants need to get his bat in the lineup, and if they aren’t trading Bengie Molina, third base is where the opening is.
Travis Ishikawa at first? Okay. I’ll pretend that I’m not worried about last year’s minor league performance being a total fluke. If he didn’t have 171 stellar at-bats in Fresno last season, he wouldn’t even be in the conversation for this year’s job. That isn’t to minimize the improvement he showed in Connecticut, but if he hit .289/.383/.461 for a full year in AA, the consensus would be that was just ducky, but that he needs to do it again in AAA. The glove is good, though, and you can’t just dismiss the AAA performance, so I’ll hope for the best. Josh Phelps is a pretty sweet backup plan.
Kevin Frandsen, Eugenio Velez, or Manny Burriss at second? Uh, okay. I guess. Burriss should start every game somewhere as a shortstop; the Giants don’t have any other in-house options above A-ball should Renteria implode, and Burriss could use the experience. Velez finished the season strong, but so did Dan Ortmeier in 2007; I don’t ever see Velez starting for a good major league team. I like Frandsen more than most, and I think he has a fair shot of becoming a Mark kind of second baseman (Grudzielanek, DeRosa, Loretta), but that half-hearted optimism should not stand in the way of any substantial upgrades.
But I’m hoping Frandsen would get the job, mostly because I didn’t want to see Madison Bumgarner traded in a Dan Uggla deal, nor did I want to see Orlando Hudson on a 4- or 5-year deal. So here’s to Kevin Frandsen, the startin…
Wait. Now I can’t stop thinking about Orlando Hudson. I wrote about him here, scoffing at the eventual contract he was going to receive. But that was before free agents started selling apples on street corners and registering with temp agencies. After the Pat Burrell deal, it’s clear that a lot of hitters aren’t as valuable on the market as they might have thought they were in October.
Orlando Hudson on a two-year deal? Yes, yes, a thousand times yes. It would put the Giants over their budget, which they might not want to break for a non-famous player. Hudson would be the best defensive player in the infield, though, and he’d also help the Giants score more runs than any of the alternatives. Three years? Ehh. I’m starting to lose interest, but I wouldn’t be upset.
I don’t know if Hudson’s price has dropped that much. That part is all wild speculation. But if so, I’d rather have Hudson than any of the other remaining free agents. Well, except for Manny Ramirez on a two-year deal, of course, but I don’t even know if the Giants are considering him. You think that someone would let us know how that’s going.
SS Renteria
3B Pablo
C Molina
LF Lewis
2B Hudson
CF Rowand
1B Phelpshikawa
You have to love a lineup where the leadoff hitter, cleanup hitter, and eighth-place hitter are interchangeable in terms of power. But there aren’t too many question marks up there. You kind of know what to expect from everyone up there except for Sandoval and Phelpshikawa; three-quarters of the lineup would likely be league average hitters for their position -- no misplaced optimism needed -- and there is room for varying degrees of league-average optimism at the other two spots.
The Giants have been active on the free-agent market, and they’ve done a good job of making the 2009 team better while keeping their options for 2011 wide open. If they can do the same with Orlando Hudson, they should jump at the chance. Apologies to Kevin Frandsen, but there is suddenly a little more value in having a known quantity for the next two seasons.
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Where’s the masterbatin’ monkey when you need him?
I voted yes, for two years. What do people think it would take to get him?
My adopted Giant: "Raptor Jesus" Guzman
by Goofus on Jan 9, 2009 1:05 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
check out jon heyman's column today
Giants are loaded. Get Hudson, Crede AND Manny. FU Yankees, see you in the Series!!
Brian Sabean's dad- will make a few phone calls to help his son find a new job after next season
by rxmeister on Jan 9, 2009 12:58 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
You mean the Little League World Series, right?
Never has a poster been more correct in the history of the internet. Ever! - ResDog on yours truly
by jcb9 on Jan 9, 2009 2:09 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
or Danny Almonte and the Bronx Team :-)
"Just take the ball and throw it where you want to. Throw strikes. Home plate don't move."-Leroy "Satchel" Paige
My adopted son Matt Downs . Utility Infielder with a Bat !
by nvsfg on Jan 9, 2009 2:51 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Bronx Team R OLDZ!
They say some players get out of bed hitting; Pablo Sandoval doesn't wait that long
by bgunn on Jan 9, 2009 3:53 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I like it!
I like that threesome. The Giants’ hitting would likely still be below average, but at least they would be close enough that they could see what average hitting looks like rather than being buried in a hitting hole as they are now.
If the Giants can sign Manny or even Adam Dunn, I think signing Orlando could be worthwhile. Otherwise, I don’t. Orlando likely wouldn’t improve their chances too much, and as small improvement over a small chance (if the Dodgers sign Manny) doesn’t seem like a good idea.
by sharksrog on Jan 10, 2009 3:26 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Molina has been great over the last 2 season, but think about how great he’d be if he was hitting 6th with a true clean up hitter and Rowand in front of him. And when I say Rowand, I mean White Sox Rowand.
by Zott on Jan 9, 2009 1:05 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
I’ll do a quick WAR for those who are interested in the difference between Burriss and Hudson. I’m using CHONE for both the offense and defense projections. I’ve set the league wOBA to .332.
Emmanuel Burriss
+2.25 wins for replacement
+0.25 wins for position
-1.39 wins for batting (CHONE wOBA of .308)
+0.4 wins for defense
————————————————
1.51* .80 = +1.21 Wins Above Replacement
Orlando Hudson
+2.25 wins for replacement
+0.25 wins for position
+0.29 wins for batting (CHONE wOBA of .337)
+0.3 wins for defense
————————————————
3.09 *.80 = +2.47 Wins Above Replacement
2.47 – 1.21 = +1.26.
The Giants would gain about +1.25 wins if they went with Orlando Hudson instead of Burriss. From my team projections, that would move the Giants from 82-83 wins to 83-84 wins. I think if Hudson would sign for a 2-year deal, you would have to consider it. But, I think anything beyond a 2-year deal and I’d rather just see if Burriss can play 2B like Mark Ellis because he did look like a plus-defender last year at the position.
by xanthan on Jan 9, 2009 1:07 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Meh.
What about Frandsen? CHONE woba of .334 ( .343/.411) although zips only has him at .325/.370… that’s still better than Burriss (even if his defense isnt’ all that).
I don’t think the pay off is worth it here. At SS, the drop off to Burriss + Noone was more huge.
I now think the guy we should have inked was Giambi. 1 year 4.5 Mil! That’s chump change!
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
by zenbitz on Jan 9, 2009 1:23 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I would really be surprised if Frandsen hit that CHONE wOBA projection. For my WAR calculations, I’m setting league wOBA to .332 and K-Fran’s projection would make him a slightly better than league average hitter…which I can’t buy yet. I think he’s got the tools to be almost league average, but I’m not sure it’s going to happen. Especially after missing a year with an injury.
The Oliver projections, which seem decent, have Frandsen at a .325 wOBA.
by xanthan on Jan 9, 2009 1:29 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
sure
but cherry picking sorta defeats the purpose of using a projection system. We (i.e, you and I) know allot more about Fransden than we do about, say, Josh Phelps. Why keep Phelps’ projection but not Frandsen?
Best would probably to take all 4 projections, normalize them to .332 and average.
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
by zenbitz on Jan 9, 2009 3:16 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t think I’m cherry picking with Frandsen, Phelps has been a league average hitter before.
by xanthan on Jan 10, 2009 8:59 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Better deal
Jason Giambino at $5.5 million guaranteed for for one season is likely a better deal than $18.5 million guaranteed for two seasons of Edgar Renteria.
by sharksrog on Jan 10, 2009 3:29 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
In a league wide context I agree with you.
In a team need context I still think Renteria was the move. As much as I cheer for Ochoa that does not mean I want to see him starting at SS for 50+ games. I don’t think Burriss is quite ready for a MLB team that is not slated to lose 90+ games. And I know tis will irritate some Frandsen backers but tell he shows me differently his glove a SS is like the emergency dough nuts that come with cars as a spare now days.
Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!
Here comes Captain Obvious wearing his Atomic Wedgie!
by daveinexile on Jan 10, 2009 8:24 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
yeah, you have to look at the individual teams involved and their needs. Giambi would be horrible at first and push Sandoval over to third where he probably would be horrible as well. You can’t build your plans around a top level pitching staff and then surround them with terrible defenders.
Brian Sabean's dad- will make a few phone calls to help his son find a new job after next season
by rxmeister on Jan 10, 2009 8:32 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Nah
I think we’d end up getting the Toronto version of Hudson rather than the Arizona version. That might still end up being better than Frandsen, but I do not want to team to pay to find out.
by Lars The Wanderer on Jan 9, 2009 1:07 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
if we get the Toronto glove and the Arizona bat, I’d be for it. Otherwise, nah.
We don't really have that much pitching depth. We don't really have that much pitching depth. FOR GOD SAKE, VERUCA, DON'T GO FAKE TRADING JONATHAN SANCHEZ. We don't really have that much pitching depth
by oldjacket on Jan 9, 2009 1:28 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
So that’s what they mean by “cherry picking stats.” I like it.
But I don’t want the real Hudson, who would not be part of the Next Good Giants Team™ anyway. And I want to see what Frandsen can do for a full year.
Sergio Romo: striking out professional hitters since 2005.
by Lyle on Jan 10, 2009 8:07 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
/touches nose
We don't really have that much pitching depth. We don't really have that much pitching depth. FOR GOD SAKE, VERUCA, DON'T GO FAKE TRADING JONATHAN SANCHEZ. We don't really have that much pitching depth
by oldjacket on Jan 10, 2009 8:54 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
AS BCB just confirmed….This could make sense if we picked up Manny or trade for a real middle of the order hiter. Then having a known vet helps. Right now our best chance is that those little known youngsters have some type of unprojectable breakout… so, our only hope is the Fran, Ishi’s, Pablo’s etc. We know what to expect from Hundson, and it ain’t enough. I’d rather play long odds on the rookies.
by GiantEscape on Jan 9, 2009 1:11 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
I’d rather have Crede, but if you can get Hudson on a cheapish 2-year deal, you should.
by Evan on Jan 9, 2009 1:22 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Why Is Everybody Now Wanting To Abandon The Rebuild When It Is Starting To Work?
I don’t want Adam Dunn for 1B I want to find out if Travis Ishikawa can be the answer. I don’t want Joe Crede for 3B I want to find out if Pablo Sandoval can be the answer. I don’t want Orlando Hudson for 2B I want to find out if Kevin Frandsen can be the the answer. We need to find out what these guys can do not block them!
by giantsrainman on Jan 9, 2009 1:29 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
+1
And let’s stop blocking Bocock too
by Great Success! on Jan 9, 2009 5:00 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
How?
How is the rebuilding starting to work — short term? The Giants won 72 games last season, and had a Pythagorean record of 68-94. The Giants have yet to commit to any veteran for over two seasons, thus trying to have their cake for next decade while eating it this one.
Travis Ishikawa likely isn’t the answer at first base, unless the question is, who would make a slick-fielding, well below average hitting starting first baseman? Pablo Sandoval likely IS the answer if the question is, who could really hit nicely for a catcher and might have his greatest value to the Giants as a super-utilityman who plays the 2, the 3 and the 5? Kevin Frandsen is likely the answer if the question is, who can hold down second base half-way decently until Nick Noonan or Conor Gillaspie is ready?
by sharksrog on Jan 10, 2009 3:34 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
No way Pablo is a 2 or a 5. He can’t defend the pick and roll, and he can’t get his shot off against taller defenders.
Sergio Romo: striking out professional hitters since 2005.
by Lyle on Jan 10, 2009 8:09 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I like it. Maybe it’d just make us a win or so better, but 1) that win could definitely matter, given the makeup of the division, and 2) it continues to not be my money, and there’s nothing else on the near horizon we’d need the money for.
Our current 2B options? Forget ‘em. Burriss will only have value if he can hang at shortstop, and he’s not there yet… a year in AAA , with some trips up to spell guys, would be good for him. I don’t see much in Frandsen, and I think backup 2B/3B is a fine use of him. As little as I see in Frandsen, I see far less in Velez — I don’t think he’ll ever be a real asset to an MLB team.
The main reason not to do this is an aesthetic one: because we told ourselves we’d be younger. That’s a silly reason. I want to see October, and if it’ll take another graybeard to help get us there, I say go. Orlando Hudson would help get us there.
by onlxn on Jan 9, 2009 1:34 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
and 2) it continues to not be my money,
I’m sorry, but I found this line to unreasonably funny :-)
"Just take the ball and throw it where you want to. Throw strikes. Home plate don't move."-Leroy "Satchel" Paige
My adopted son Matt Downs . Utility Infielder with a Bat !
by nvsfg on Jan 9, 2009 2:55 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
2 years for $15 million
Yes. Frandsen as utility guy, Burriss in AAA, Velez with some other organization….
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
by baetown415 on Jan 9, 2009 1:36 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Pitching, pitching and then some more pitching
SF gave up a ton of runs in 2008. There are still some valuable relief pitchers available in free agency that SF could sign for a season or two max – especially LHP in the pen. Jack Taschner is always a gamble and Sir Alex Hinshaw is still looking for the strikezone on a consistent basis. Beef up the pen and possibly the Giants could salvage the wins for Cain & Co.
Also agree that SF should have at least sniffed at Jason Giambi for chump change.
by wilriv21 on Jan 9, 2009 1:36 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
while you were out of town the Giants signed Affeldt and Howry. If you’re talking about signing even MORE relievers than I’m against it. I’m against any move for 2009 that hurts the long term future. Signing more relievers would probably even put Sergio Romo in the minors. Don’t like that idea. I’m also against Hudson for the same reason, and I was kidding before when I said to sign Crede, Manny and Hudson. The Giants’ don’t have THAT kind of money. I’m sure between Frandsen, Burriss and Velez they can find someone who can do a decent job there in 2009.
Brian Sabean's dad- will make a few phone calls to help his son find a new job after next season
by rxmeister on Jan 9, 2009 1:50 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
The Giants’ don’t have THAT kind of money.
Really? I’m pretty sure we do… by all accounts, the franchise is kinda raking it in right now. There are smaller-market teams whose owners consistently devote more money towards player salaries than ours do. It can be done.
I wouldn’t dispute that it’d be strange to go above your usual payroll level to field a 86-76 transitional team, but I don’t know why any of us fans would fight it. I feel no sentimentality towards the $85-90 million payroll ceiling we’ve been sticking to. We generate more revenue than most teams, so why shouldn’t we spend more than we’ve been spending?
by onlxn on Jan 9, 2009 2:23 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I have a fondness for the 85-90M payroll because I believe it greatly increases the odds the front office can keep any worthy young kids the prove out. I know it is not a belief I can cite figures and examples to back up. Yet it helps me get through those 6 run 5th innings when our offense has yet to make the other pitcher throw 60 pitches.
Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!
Here comes Captain Obvious wearing his Atomic Wedgie!
by daveinexile on Jan 9, 2009 2:31 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Let me amend my comment to....
The Giants’ HAVE that kind of money, but are not planning on spending it.
Brian Sabean's dad- will make a few phone calls to help his son find a new job after next season
by rxmeister on Jan 10, 2009 8:35 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
thank you.
Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!
Here comes Captain Obvious wearing his Atomic Wedgie!
by daveinexile on Jan 10, 2009 8:58 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
What's an investment banker, daddy?
We’ll see how MLB manages to not suffer the exact same fate as virtually every other industry… it’s the first sport to have season ticket renewals come up after the bubble has burst.
SF has held up better than other places, but we’ll see.
Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."
by natteringnabob on Jan 10, 2009 7:03 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
“Well, son, that’s a person who takes other people’s money and turns around and gambles it with still other people’s ideas. And gets paid handsomely for doing it. If those pitching lessons I’m paying for don’t turn out, you should consider investment banking as a future.”
Sergio Romo: striking out professional hitters since 2005.
by Lyle on Jan 10, 2009 8:13 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
When’s the Phone Booth paid off again?
Just out of curiosity, how many other MLB teams are paying on their stadiums?
Hey with the market crash maybe the property tax rate has gone down !
by Merope on Jan 10, 2009 9:27 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
According to this article written in 2004
“SBC Park cost $315 million. After selling the naming rights for $50 million and raising about $90 million through personal seat licenses and corporate sponsorships, the Giants borrowed $175 million for construction. The team pays about $17 million annually to service that debt, and will for another 15 years.”
I am pretty sure that you are right on with the property value comment. It has been a common business practice this year to re-appraise property values to reduce and write down taxable (property) assets. A one time hit to net worth, but a big tax savings. Net worth increases with a well timed appraisal when the market starts to recover.
"Just take the ball and throw it where you want to. Throw strikes. Home plate don't move."-Leroy "Satchel" Paige
My adopted son Matt Downs . Utility Infielder with a Bat !
by nvsfg on Jan 10, 2009 11:26 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I’m bullish on Fransden and bearish on Hudson, so I say no. I’m probably being too optomistic for Fransden, but I think he has the ability to outproduce Hudson over the next two years for a lot less.
by AngelWillSaveUs on Jan 9, 2009 1:38 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
On with the youth movement
Frandsen deserves a shot. Signing Hudson thereby blocking Frandsen at 2b would go against the youth movement. Unlike Burriss, Frandsen wouldn’t benefit from another year or two in the minors. Management should give him this year to prove himself, which he deserves at the very least.
by ThePassionOfTheNeifi on Jan 9, 2009 1:56 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
I vote no on Hudson, unless the deal is just ridiculously cheap.
I think one of the three options at 2B will step up and provide decent production. Ideally, it’ll be Frandsen and then Burriss can have another year at AAA playing SS, with Velez coming off the bench.
It’s too bad Velez is so bad at stealing bases, despite all his speed. He’d really be an ideal bench player if he could be a strong pinch runner as well.
by The Double Deuce on Jan 9, 2009 1:58 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
I agree. Let things play out and see what we got.
by daniel9 on Jan 9, 2009 2:23 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Nah
Xanath (the secret son of Seymour Cray? ) does a real nice job of showing the potentional improvement Orlando would expected to bring. What makes me say "Nah" is by August we could very well find ourselves with almost all our young left side infielders ( Conor, Burriss, Cubberson etc) being unsuited for the left side. It would a bit of a stretch but is plausible.
That would make playing Frandsen more important. If he proves near league average with a bat and glove his being under team control would make him a nice chip to partner up in a trade. If he doesn’t prove so hot then the Giants know not worry about keeping him except as the 2010 or 2011 version of Ochoa. (Want a middle infield job then beat him.)
Now if we were talking about a 1 year deal some one would have to tie my hands to the oar and plug my ears. It would be too tempting for me to be expected to resist.
Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!
Here comes Captain Obvious wearing his Atomic Wedgie!
by daveinexile on Jan 9, 2009 2:23 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
If the Giants WERE to sign Hudson, he would hit in the three spot, and Sandoval would drop to sixth or seventh. I think Burriss is going to open some eyes this year though. He really shined as a second baseman last year, and I think starting the year with his feet on the ground as a big leaguer can only fuel his game.
by StickRat on Jan 9, 2009 2:35 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
I love Burriss too...
But I have to agree with Grant. The Giants NEED an in house short stop. Burriss proved last year he can play at this level and I want to see him there, but something happened this winter. He is still very young, needs to work a little on his glove. He has a top flight arm and a great step. His power, while probably never great, will develop more. He has shown the ability to get on base, eventually he will grow into a swing that’ll produce alot of doubles and triples. Let’s see him at AAA this year, at least to start.
by NuschlersNews on Jan 9, 2009 2:42 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I disagree that Burriss should be considered as a shortstop. The way I see it, he can either be a decent shortstop, or a superb second baseman. It isn’t like the Giants have a lot of in-house options at second base. Frandsen and Noonan are both have potential, but Burriss is ready to go. Why juggle a guy that is ready to step into a big-league starting role just to keep the position open for Frandsen, who probably won’t be up to speed until 2010, and Noonan who is several years years away? If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it. And Burriss certainly ain’t broke at second base.
by StickRat on Jan 9, 2009 2:55 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Burriss'
fielding isn’t the issue, it’s his bat. His bat (until he takes a big step forward) doesn’t play at SS and it certainly don’t play at 2B. He would literally have to be Mark Ellis level defense to consider him at 2B.
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
by zenbitz on Jan 9, 2009 3:18 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
It’s ridiculous to position a player based on his offense. Burriss played a solid second base last year, and his bat has shown that he deserves playing time. Renteria is pretty much our primary shortstop now, so aside from filling in for him a handful of times, Burriss should and will see most of his ML playing time at 2B. I don’t think he necessarily needs to spend time at AAA, though it wouldn’t hurt, but staying and developing his bat in the bigs is something I’d like to see.
"Just another ahahahaha... laugher."
by capnk on Jan 9, 2009 4:15 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
You don’t position a player solely based on offense, but you do recognize when a player’s offense isn’t going to cut it at a given position. Burriss wasn’t a productive hitter last year, even despite a performance that few expected he’d be capable of. There’s no reason to expect him to develop any power, and if he loses even a couple walks or infield singles, he becomes borderline unplayable.
In today’s MLB, it’s very difficult for a team to carry a Burriss-type bat at short and succeed. It’s just about impossible for a team to carry a Burriss-type bat at second and succeed, because it means punting on a position where you can reasonably expect some decent offense along with good defense. It’s great that Burriss seems to be a good defensive second baseman, but the truth is, you can go find a good defensive second baseman if you want to. Orlando Hudson being a good example.
I like Burriss, and I root for him, but his only path to being a viable major-league starter is by becoming a strong defensive shortstop. We should send him to AAA so he can work on that. There’s not much point in planting him at second base… all that does is insure that we need to go find a second baseman.
by onlxn on Jan 9, 2009 4:53 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I think that’s a little harsh. It sounds like you were spoiled by having Jeff Kent at second. I don’t expect Burriss to become a power hitter. If you really want power hitters, they’re going to be corner IF/OF guys, and not because that’s where their offense dictates they go, but because the type of players that hit for power are the guys whose skill sets wind up at the corners.
2B and SS aren’t all that different from each other in my eyes. I see Burriss developing into a player that relies on OBP, not power, and I think that’s a reasonable expectation for a middle infielder. Even if you think his defense is replaceable and all that could conceivably carry him at the ML level, why go out and sign someone else when you already have Burriss? I don’t intend to assert that Orlando Hudson is the only option, but Hudson’s offense is league average at best, and I’m willing to bet that Burriss’ has the ability to at least match Hudson’s level of production if given the chance to play in the bigs.
"Just another ahahahaha... laugher."
by capnk on Jan 9, 2009 6:59 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with onlxn. Burriss only has a future at SS, and the question is whether he will ever hit enough in the bigs to stick there. Last year’s results were inconclusive. I would have been okay with sticking with him this year, but management decided Renteria was too good to pass up, so that decision has been made. So now, we need to decide if we want Burriss in SF, getting only sporadic at-bats, or if we want him in Fresno, starting every day and working on his game. I vote the latter, now that Renteria is signed.
I think, if given a chance, Frandsen will do fine at 2B. If Noonan or Gillaspie or Rohlinger or whomever comes along in the future and blows him away, so be it.
Sergio Romo: striking out professional hitters since 2005.
by Lyle on Jan 10, 2009 8:20 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree that Burriss will never hit well enough to be a major league second baseman. His future is at short. Maybe you can play him at second if you’re the Yankees, but the Giants’ lineup needs as much pop as they can, and only Kevin Frandsen of the three potential second basemen we have for 2009 MAY fit that description.
Brian Sabean's dad- will make a few phone calls to help his son find a new job after next season
by rxmeister on Jan 10, 2009 8:38 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I kind of split the middle here.
To me Burriss might be that kind of defensive force at second that a Punch and Judy bat will do on a team with power coming from the corners. But I just don’t think that time is right now. His AZL showing with a glove did two things for me.
1)It tempered my enthusiasm and reminded me how young he is.
2)Under scored, with bold print, his need for regular playing time to farther master his game.
So play him at SS in Fresno. The SS time would still keep him sharp enough to go to 2nd with just a little work if condition demand it.
Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!
Here comes Captain Obvious wearing his Atomic Wedgie!
by daveinexile on Jan 10, 2009 8:41 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Burriss in AAA? No way!
To all those eager to send Burriss back to the minors….
who backs up SS for the SF Giants? Ochoa? ack.
Noah Lowry?
by Kid Fresh on Jan 9, 2009 5:22 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Do you think Burriss has reached his ceiling?
If so then giving him a case Bench Rot™ is perfectly fine.
If however you think Burriss can get better then avoiding a case of Bench Rot™ demands Burriss goes down to play every day.
In other news:
Your lack of support for our local infield scrub is duly noted. Don’t be surprised to find your wearing tire tracks from his fan band wagon wobbly tricycle. But that is another topic.
Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!
Here comes Captain Obvious wearing his Atomic Wedgie!
by daveinexile on Jan 9, 2009 6:47 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I’m also against giving Burris Bench Rot™, but I think Dave should release Bench Rot™ under a Creative Commons license so it can be more widely enjoyed…
by Johnny Disaster on Jan 9, 2009 6:53 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Done & Done.
It’s not like I don’t shamelessly recycle & reuse things. Were do I sign so any, and all, proceeds go to McCoven beer & pizza fund?
Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!
Here comes Captain Obvious wearing his Atomic Wedgie!
by daveinexile on Jan 10, 2009 8:43 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Ceiling
I hope to be wrong, but I fear that Emmanuel Burriss wasn’t all that far off his ceiling with the bat last season. I’m hoping he can become a good defensive shortstop, since his bat would fit better than at second base, where he already IS a good defensive player and likely could become one of the best.
by sharksrog on Jan 10, 2009 3:41 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Frandsen
Kevin Frandsen should be the backup shortstop if Emmanuel Burriss is sent down, which likely would benefit Emmanuel most. If Edgar Renteria were injured, either Emmanuel or Ochoa could be brought up to start. If Kevin has to play shortstop briefly, the Giants could just use Eugenio Velez at second base and hope all balls are hit in the air.
by sharksrog on Jan 10, 2009 3:39 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Frandsen is scary bad at SS
Frandsen can’t field the position of short stop.
Exhibit A: Spring Training, 2008, where Bochy out-and-out gave Franny the job for the first month of the season. (Believe it or not, Bocock was not option one!). 4 games and 7 errors later, the experiment was called to a close.
Frandsen at 2B? Sure. Burriss at SS? Why not. A double play combo of Frandsen & Velez? No thanks.
Noah Lowry?
by Kid Fresh on Jan 10, 2009 7:54 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
No no. If Renteria is hurt in a game, then Frandsen finishes the game at SS, and we call up Burriss for the next day’s game. Simple. Or Adrianza, if his team is geographically closer that day.
Sergio Romo: striking out professional hitters since 2005.
by Lyle on Jan 10, 2009 8:22 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, i’m fine with Frandsen as a substitute SS or to give Renteria the day off now & again. I think it’s easy to read too much into a few spring training games, and whilst Frandsen isn’t a solution at SS, he’s alright as a backup. If Renteria gets injured or there’s a need for more of a long term SS then we can simply call up Burriss
Proud owner of the most boring Username! Alex Hinshaw: Now showing in a bullpen near you!
by GiantFan on Jan 10, 2009 8:35 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t think Frandsen was that bad when used at short during the Arizona Fall League this offseason. I think Frandsen made a couple of errors in spring training last year and it mentally affected him. Hopefully he’s gotten over that by now. I’m sure he’ll get plenty of opportunities in spring training to show he can handle the position. If not, Burriss could win the second base job because of his versatility.
Brian Sabean's dad- will make a few phone calls to help his son find a new job after next season
by rxmeister on Jan 10, 2009 8:42 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
His SS time in ’07 still makes me cringe. Tell he shows differently at SS his glove is a soft spare dough nut for a spare there.
Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!
Here comes Captain Obvious wearing his Atomic Wedgie!
by daveinexile on Jan 10, 2009 8:55 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Back-up SS
In the event of an injury, calling up a short stop from Fresno (when needed) is a dandy plan. But the possibly of Renteria getting hurt and needing to be replaced is only part on the equation.
We all know that Bochy will rest Renteria about once per week, and these MLB starts at SS will go to either Burriss, Ochoa, or Frandsen. I would prefer the starts go to Burriss, even if it is once per week. Between playing short stop, second base, pinch running and pinch hitting, I can actually see Burriss getting a fair amount of MLB game experience, even if he is not a starter. (And I actually think that Burriss will win the starting job at 2B, batting 8th, w/Frandsen the utility guy, and Velez in AAA or relased).
Renteria played in 138 games last year, and has averaged 143 games played per season over his 13 year career. It’s not just about injury replacement. Renteria will play about 80-85 of the games at SS if healthy, so it’s just a question of who will help the Giants the most in those other 15-20 of the games….
Frandsen imploded defensively as SS when given the chance. Ochoa struggles to hit .200 in the majors. I see Burriss as clearly the best option to back up SS. The concept of “bench rot” is funny, but it’s not like the players sit around and do nothing until game time. The coaching, practice, drills, etc. afforded at a MLB level will also help the career development of Emmanuel Burriss.
Noah Lowry?
by Kid Fresh on Jan 10, 2009 11:07 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I respect your commitment to a meritocracy.
Now if , some how, The Giants are leading the division in August/ September and we are looking to set a roster for the post season that the Burriss, as he is now, should be the back up middle infielder. But we are not leading the Division and it is not August or September. We are talking about an April roster after losing 90 games the year before. Thus the more talented player who has the most upside should placed were he can play every day so he has the best chance to convert more of his ceiling into reality.
Seriously a young unproven player on a Botchy team only plays if the front office decrees it, or there is no veteran that can hobble out there. Botchy’s track record here proves it and his reputation from SD also backs it up. Don’t let the last 2 months fool you. The Front office starting saying the kids would play in July and finally a month later it was implemented. So in short Bench Rot™ really does exist as a possible fate in this franchise.
If you disagree name specific cases. I hate to go all "appeal to authority" but this is topic that has been address many times here and I would rather not dredge it up again just for the joy of tenderizing dead horse meat. Beside your the one state some does nto exist so the pnus is on you to back it up.
The only way Bench Rot™ would not apply to a young established player is if the player has already developed enough of his ceiling. With most of his ceiling converted he is either A) not likely to much more then a back up player on the MLB level or B) he has to be an all ready more of a polished big league better then the vet. To me Burriss fits neither in the A or B category right now.
Which leads us to the "learn on the bench myth". You learn by doing. ( insert favored grumpy old man comment here.) At least with the fundamentals. With that spat of 10 errors in AZL Burriss still needs the repetitions to master his glove. Repetitions he will not get playing 9 innings every week with a pitch running appearance. Once he has the fundamentals down cold you can do more of the theoretical type learning ( watching from the bench, occasional pinch runner, 1 day a week).
Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!
Here comes Captain Obvious wearing his Atomic Wedgie!
by daveinexile on Jan 11, 2009 8:07 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
“Beside your the one state some does nto exist so the pnus is on you to back it up.”
You lost me at this sentence.
Noah Lowry?
by Kid Fresh on Jan 12, 2009 9:13 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I think he’s trying to say that the penis is on you.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Jan 13, 2009 9:23 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Hmm It should have say the the "onus is on you". Instead it sounds like I was talking with my mouth full. (Now theres a straight line that should not go to waste around here).
Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!
Here comes Captain Obvious wearing his Atomic Wedgie!
by daveinexile on Jan 13, 2009 9:50 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I believe I may have already covered it just above.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Jan 13, 2009 10:01 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
With Ochoa not being on the 40 man makes things easier. If Velez does not make a strong case compared to Frandsen and Mr. Roberts breaks spring training with the team I would say Ochoa is the logical guy to give Bench Rot™ to.
Roger Burriss really intrigues me. Even if his bat never get much better he really could be a very strong glove on both sides of the bag and with that speed even as the buck MI that is a real nice piece to have on a 25 man roster with strong pitching. But, just to keep tenderizeing the horse flesh, it turns on him playing every day and sharpening his glove.
Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!
Here comes Captain Obvious wearing his Atomic Wedgie!
by daveinexile on Jan 10, 2009 8:52 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Love him, hate him
I LOVE Emmanuel Burriss’ defense at second base. I hate his hitting there.
by sharksrog on Jan 10, 2009 3:37 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
this reminds me of those commercials
“I would like untoasted-toasted bagel”
Giant Dirtbags: Brian Anderson, Todd Jennings, Steve Hammond, John Bowker
Jeremy Affeldt Ready To Make His Father Proud
by Giant among Angels on Jan 10, 2009 4:48 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I'd rather see Frandsen finally given a chance...
But if for some reason Hudson could be considering taking a 1 year deal, ride out the economy, and hope the market is better next year when the Free Agent market is already much worse than this year, than count me in. In 1 year, he will still be considered young and good, it may not be bad…on seconds thoughts, i’ll take Frandsen and some real youth.
by NuschlersNews on Jan 9, 2009 2:38 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
+1
for “Mark-kind of second baseman.”
Leading the Pro-Aaron Rowand contingent on the McC!
You can ridicule me in 2009 if you like...
by ThrillisGone22 on Jan 9, 2009 2:49 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Nooooo.
I think both Frandsen and Burriss hit enough in the AFL to warrant a shot in spring training. I don’t see how Hudson, coming off injuries of his own, can provide that much more value than Frandsen or Burriss. Frandsen is obviously healthy, as he played shortstop and stole 10 bases. Let’s see what he’s got!
by AndOnTheDrums... on Jan 9, 2009 3:17 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
At $2/18
I think we’ve seen that Renteria was a significant overpay in this market but if Hudson is willing to take 2/16 or 2/18, I’m intruiged. I think the 2b is one of the places where the Giants can improve more than marginally, and I have no doubt Josh Phelps would be the best 1b we’ve seen in 5 years if Ishikawa fails (damning with faint praise, no doubt). IMO, giving Sandoval a chance (as opposed to signing Crede) is more important to me than giving Frandsen one.
Jonathan Sanchez. He's left-handed, like Barry Zito. His fastball breaks 80, unlike Zito.
by Aadik on Jan 9, 2009 3:19 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
I’d love to see Phelps get a look, but have you seen any indication from Sabean that he will?? He seems intent on playing Pablo there, and even if he doesn’t he’ll sign Rich Aurilia again before he plays Phelps. I criticized Phelps last year when he signed with the Cardinals, because why the hell would a right handed first baseman sign a minor league contract with a team that has Albert Pujols?? However this time around, he correctly surmised the team he should sign with, but he picked the wrong GM and manager. Even if Sabean signs Wigginton or Crede, he’s also going to bring in Aurilia, and Bochy is going to play him. Phelps will never get a chance.
Brian Sabean's dad- will make a few phone calls to help his son find a new job after next season
by rxmeister on Jan 10, 2009 8:46 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
well that's one thing..
If Renteria got 2/18 then why should Hudson take 2/16 or 2/18. I think he’d go to another team before taking that.
The Basil Fawlty Moderating Strategy:
"We could run a nice blog here if we didn't have all these members getting in the way."
by WalrusMan on Jan 11, 2009 1:04 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
No on Hudson.
I see him as having peaked offensively. There’s injuries, and he’s on the wrong side of 30. No way we get those AZ numbers at AT&T. He will not give us enough to make the team significantly better. No on Crede too.
Manny is the one I can’t stop thinking about. He is the only FA out there that could bring the Giants a division title. He would pay for much of himself through increased attendance and licensed merchandize. Plus, I love it that there would be so many Dodger fans with useless Manny jerseys on their hands.
I guess all we would have to worry about is if we plays, or quits on us.
Greetings, Marklar! I am Marklar! This is Marklar.
by marklar on Jan 9, 2009 3:46 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Would Manny's bandana be orange or black?
"Just another ahahahaha... laugher."
by capnk on Jan 9, 2009 4:17 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Depends on what he had for breakfast.
by Great Success! on Jan 9, 2009 5:11 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Has Manny ever quit on a team before this thing happened last year with the Red Sox?? While what he did was despicable, there is no evidence that he has ever done anything in the past worse than simply “Manny being Manny.”
Brian Sabean's dad- will make a few phone calls to help his son find a new job after next season
by rxmeister on Jan 10, 2009 8:49 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Signing Manny would help out two ways
Signing Manny Ramirez would help the Giants in two different manners.
First, it would do a GREAT job of filling one of the three holes in the Giants’ batting order (the 3,4 and 5 hitters).
Second, it would provide more playing time for Juan Pierre, who would likely lead the majors in outs made if he played every day and batted leadoff. Having Juan lead off would really hurt the Dodgers.
by sharksrog on Jan 10, 2009 3:44 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
BUT OMG HEEZ FAST AND STEELZ
thts all you need
by bondslegend on Jan 10, 2009 8:29 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I would think the Dodgers would sign Adam Dunn if they lost out on Manny Ramirez. There would have to be a response by the Dodgers after they lost out on Manny, especially if he goes to their hated rivals.
Brian Sabean's dad- will make a few phone calls to help his son find a new job after next season
by rxmeister on Jan 10, 2009 8:50 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
No thanks
I’d rather take my chances with the youngish ones.
On that note, doesn’t Burriss have to make the ML roster if we don’t sign anyone else? There is no way that we would go into the season with Frandsen or Velez as our backup SS… right? Unless we rock the Bocock as a utility infielder.
Giants! Giants! HELP US GOD!
by j14 on Jan 9, 2009 3:54 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Hey what about the not so mighty Ochoa!
Respect Support your local infield scurb.
Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!
Here comes Captain Obvious wearing his Atomic Wedgie!
by daveinexile on Jan 9, 2009 4:24 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
No Thanks
I don’t see what’s so great about Orlando Hudson. Great defender, solid hitter with decent power and decent speed, great teammate, great nickname O-dog, but this is not worth millions of dollars or displacing Frandsen. I want to see Frandsen there on day one, two, three… I also like the idea of having him at third for Pablo when he’s catching. Hudson is just not a difference maker on this team.
by world wide suicide on Jan 9, 2009 8:04 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Frandsen
Kevin Frandsen could play the hot corner as a backup, but if he is starting at third base when Pablo Sandoval is catching, Kevin would likely be a sub-par hitter as a third baseman, and Eugenio Velez likely would be a sub-par hitter AND fielder at the keystone. Pablo WOULD almost certainly hit well for a catcher, though.
by sharksrog on Jan 10, 2009 3:47 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
How about, on the days Pablo catches, we sneak Bengie over to 3B and forbid the opposing team to bunt. Problem solved!
Sergio Romo: striking out professional hitters since 2005.
by Lyle on Jan 10, 2009 8:24 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I originally voted yes for 2 years,
but now I just think “nah”. Let frandsen finally show if he’s for real or not.
by bondslegend on Jan 10, 2009 8:30 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
I think you can make the case that every Sabean move so far this offseason was made without compromising the future. Signing Orlando Hudson would clearly be a change in this philosophy. Kevin Frandsen is ready to play in the majors, (don’t know how good he will be, but he certainly doesn’t need another year at Fresno) and this move would certainly finish him permanently as a starting player for the Giants. Then again, if Sabean feels he will never be a player, then I can understand it. I don’t think the Giants are interested in Hudson though. To me, he was an early backup plan in case the Giants’ didn’t get Furcal or Renteria. I haven’t heard anything about the Giants’ being involved with Hudson for quite some time.
Brian Sabean's dad- will make a few phone calls to help his son find a new job after next season
by rxmeister on Jan 10, 2009 8:55 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
If he is reasonable...
We should sign Hudson. I think some have undervalued his defense in comparing Burress favorable with him. Hudson’s defense is still on par with Brandon Phillips, and Pedroia. Burress is very strong defensively, but I’d still put Hudson a bit ahead of him. Hitting wise, there’s no comparison. Hudson’s style of hitting is only marignally helped by AZ’s ballpark. Really he is a line drive gap hitter. His splits show he is much stronger vs RHP, which also helps his value:
VS RHP
.324/.381/.486
VS LHP
.273/.343/.397
He only hit 8 home runs last year, so the .486 slugging percentage would not be affected as much as one might think moving parks.
Besides, I heard he’s a gamer. :)
My two favorite teams are the Giants, and whomever is playing the Dodgers!
by World Series or Bust on Jan 10, 2009 10:27 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
I voted yes
but nah
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on Jan 10, 2009 9:12 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
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