Does Sabean Know What He's Doing??
by truebruin on Jan 4, 2009 3:13 PM PST
131 comments
I'd like to start out this post by saying that I've been as harsh on Sabean as anyone for the past few years. He made a few amazing transactions when he first took over, and then fell into a let's-overpay-veterans-who-under-perform pattern. However, this offseason seems to be a bit different. Maybe it's just me being far too optimistic, but he's made some very good signings that won't adversely affect the Giants' longterm future at all. A lot of us on this site seem to assume that Sabean will offer a horrible deal to any free agent (myself included). Which is why I thought I should make this post. Although I originally thought that everyone would be right in their analysis of the Giants-Manny rumors, assuming that Sabean would be offering 4+ years for way too many dollars, it appears that the offers are actually very reasonable. In fact, the A's here on SBNation are jealous of Sabean's GMing this offseason! I never thought the day would come that the A's wish Beane was acting like Sabean.
Anyway, I just wanted to get this viewpoint out there. I'm not suggesting that Sabean's helped the club in the last few years. But I'm all for giving him another chance, given his performance over the last few weeks. If he signs Manny to a reasonable, short-term deal, he'll manage to field a contending team without sacrificing the farm system. It's a rare GM that can pull of that feat.
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Like the way the organization is headed. My main peeve is that they need to replace whoever is doing the negotiating because SF seems to overpay.
by wilriv21 on Jan 4, 2009 3:31 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
I actually don’t mind overpaying to get fewer years on a contract. As long as a new contract doesn’t block a prospect, it probably doesn’t matter how much the Giants overpay.
by truebruin on Jan 4, 2009 3:42 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
So it doesn’t matter that the Giants overpaid for Zito?
Never has a poster been more correct in the history of the internet. Ever! - ResDog on yours truly
by jcb9 on Jan 4, 2009 4:41 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
except
the giants overpayed AND didnt get less years. thats not what he was saying
by kvdp12 on Jan 4, 2009 4:53 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Ah, right, right, I didn’t connect the first sentence with the last in my head.
I’m still not sure I agree, mind you, but that makes more sense.
Never has a poster been more correct in the history of the internet. Ever! - ResDog on yours truly
by jcb9 on Jan 4, 2009 4:58 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
So , ah , Mr. Bruin...
A lot of us on this site seem to assume that Sabean will offer a horrible deal to any free agent (myself included).
The question is – can you hit well enough to play 1B?
Who has the fun?
Is it always the man with the gun?
- The Stranglers
by victor frankenstein on Jan 4, 2009 8:45 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Disagree. There is a budget. SF overpaid grossly for Renteria. The other GMs said so. Which player is better – Renteria or Cabrera? Yes there is a draft pick involved but someone will sign Cabrera for less than Renteria. Rowand was too many years and dollars. Zito too. So was Winn. A $10M deal (it will be because of easily attainable incentives) was an overpay for RJ because the market at that price was not there. Other high offers through the years have thankfully been turned down.
SF has a beautiful ballpark and is a relatively nice area so there should be no need to overpay. If you say well hitters do not want to hit here then pitchers should want to pitch here at a discount.
by wilriv21 on Jan 4, 2009 5:09 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe I don’t understand how it works, but doesn’t Xanthan’s spreadsheet show that almost everyone on the team except for Zito, Roberts and a few relievers is likely to be underpaid based on their projected production?
We're all basically Pedro Feliz.
by SF Pete on Jan 4, 2009 5:17 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
There's a budget
But the money isn’t coming out of my pocket, so what does it matter? Why should I care if the payroll increases by 5 or 6 million for a season? And whether or not Cabrera is better than Renteria is strictly a matter of opinion.
What you said about players wanting or not wanting to play in SF is the same type of thing Yankees fans have been clamoring about for such a long time. “How come Sabathia hasn’t taken the money yet? He should realize that it’s an honor to play here!” Of course factors like location and ballpark type have an affect on player signings, but money talks like nothing else, unfortunately. If it takes the extra few million to get a coveted player for a season or two, then go for it.
Wall-E for Best Picture 2008
by Useful_Idiot on Jan 4, 2009 5:38 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
But the money isn’t coming out of my pocket, so what does it matter?
As a season-ticket holder, it is coming out of my pocket, so I want it spent wisely
My adopted Giant: "Raptor Jesus" Guzman
by Goofus on Jan 4, 2009 9:15 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Right
If it’s a contract for only one year, it doesn’t make a difference whether the contract is 5 million or 10 million, assuming the team has a plan going into the offseason. It won’t hamper us like a long term contract would. As long as the deal doesn’t prevent the team from signing another player that it is targeting, go ahead and spend what it takes. On the other hand, adding more years could hurt the teams long-term plans and be a weight on any plans in future offseasons.
Wall-E for Best Picture 2008
by Useful_Idiot on Jan 4, 2009 10:38 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Just because
..the money doesn’t come out of your pocket (directly, as noted by Goofus), that doesn’t mean there isn’t a budget.
Sergio Romo: striking out professional hitters since 2005.
by Lyle on Jan 5, 2009 2:18 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I'd like to know the names of those GMs
So that on opening day we can compare their offseasons to Sabean’s.
by Sabertooth on Jan 4, 2009 5:51 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
There were reports (many) that industy insiders and GMs stating SF grossly overpaid – meaning SF still could have signed Renteria but at a much lower cost.
by wilriv21 on Jan 4, 2009 5:53 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I saw the anonymous reports
GMs say all kinds of things.
by Sabertooth on Jan 5, 2009 7:10 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
It Was Actually A Single Report Quoting Annonymously Onee GM And One Scout
This single report just keep getting reported over and over again. Frankly, I think these back seat drivers are full of you know what.
by giantsrainman on Jan 5, 2009 7:20 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
The Winn deal wasn’t overpayment, IMO
My adopted Giant: "Raptor Jesus" Guzman
by Goofus on Jan 4, 2009 9:20 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I Agree
Randy’s Offense and Defense combined is worth alot more then the $8M we pay him. It was both a great trade to get him and a great signing to keep him for the extra three years.
by giantsrainman on Jan 4, 2009 10:00 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
agree
Proud father of Eric Surkamp!!!
by The Thrill on Jan 4, 2009 10:04 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Yup.
Just wish this sentiment was more widely applicable.
Who has the fun?
Is it always the man with the gun?
- The Stranglers
by victor frankenstein on Jan 5, 2009 11:59 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
He was signed too early and doubt if SF would have re-signed him to the same deal when the original deal did expire.
by wilriv21 on Jan 4, 2009 10:41 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Bingo
Similar to, but less egregious than, the recent extension that Warriors gave to Stephen Jackson.
Fair deal? Maybe. Too early? Absolutely.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
by Bhaakon on Jan 4, 2009 11:49 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I Totally Disagree
Both the timing and the dollars were right. He has been a bargin and I fully expect he will remain so in 2009.
by giantsrainman on Jan 4, 2009 11:52 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
He could spend the whole '09 season on the DL and his contract still be a bargain
His contract was for 24MM
He’s been worth 36MM combined in ’07-08.
"And you just don't get it, you keep it copacetic..."
by Blicks on Jan 5, 2009 7:04 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
At the time of the signing, people here were saying “too much, too early” and I worried about it, but still thought it was fair.
Weren’t players’ salaries going crazy at the time? I think it was a pre-emptive strike to protect them from inflation. Kotsay had just signed a very similar deal and their numbers at the time were very similar. Winn’s deal proved to be a smart move.
My adopted Giant: "Raptor Jesus" Guzman
by Goofus on Jan 5, 2009 9:29 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
What's the current payroll?
Because if we’re still in the 75-80mil range, then we’re still in good shape. If it’s 90mil, then it could be money poorly spent.
"He called the sh** POOP!" -- Adam Sandler
by JRPhillips on Jan 4, 2009 10:33 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
We Are At $82M Commited To 11 Contracted Players
We Have one arbitration eligable player (Jack Taschner) who should get about the same $700K Vinnie Chulk got last year, 1 Cy Young Award Winning Pre Arb player (do I have to name him) that should get about the same $1M Ryan Howand got when he won his MVP as a pre-arb player, 12-13 other pre arb players (depending upon Noah Lowry’s health) that should average a little above $400K thus totaling about $5.3M, and 14-15 non 40 man roster players (again depending upon Noah Lowry’s health) that should average a little above $60K thus totaling a little under $1M.
All told we are at about $90M for our 40 Man Roster.
by giantsrainman on Jan 4, 2009 10:48 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Why "depending upon Lowry's health" GRM?
Lowry has a guaranteed contract. He’ll make $4.5 mil whether or not he’s ever on the active roster this year (whether or not he’s on the 40 man, even).
Get the hell out the way Bengie, Pablito's hit the show!
by Roger on Jan 5, 2009 8:53 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I think he means that if Lowry’s injured, then he’ll need to be replaced on the 25 man roster & probably will be replaced on the 40 man roster, which would mean we’d need to pay an additional pre-arbitration player. I presume he’s already included Lowry’s $4.5M in the $82M commited to contracted players.
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by GiantFan on Jan 5, 2009 9:25 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Ah, I see.
Get the hell out the way Bengie, Pablito's hit the show!
by Roger on Jan 5, 2009 9:29 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
That Is About Right
You are understanding me correctly that Lowry and his $4.5M is included in the $82 for 11 Contraced Players and that we will need a 13th pre-arb player is Lowry goes on the DL.
But, I confussed you and everyone else with regards to “14-15 non 40 man roster players” this should have read 14-15 non 25 man roster players from the 40 man roster. This too is tied into Lowry’s health in that Lowry will be the 15th man of this group if he does go on the DL (thus only 14 others) and his $4.5M is already accounted for.
by giantsrainman on Jan 5, 2009 9:35 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree that it’s great what is happening this offseason because of the way he has improved the present without sacrificing the future to do so. However, for A’s fans to say that Sabean is doing better than Beane isn’t really fair. One has money to work with, the other doesn’t. I’ve always thought that Beane was overrated and not the genius everyone says he is, but he’s definitely done more than Sabean these last few years with much less to work with.
Brian Sabean's dad- will make a few phone calls to help his son find a new job after next season
by rxmeister on Jan 4, 2009 3:46 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
I have to disagree a little. The Haren trade was soley motivated by the fact that the A’s drafted poorly, and had no B or better prospects in their system. Haren has a great contract, and could’ve been a cornerstone in Oakland for several years and not much $$$.
by tyrannoman on Jan 5, 2009 8:26 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I too am pleased with what has happened this offseason…so far. If Sabes does not make any moves that could either hurt the possibility of signing younger players (i.e. Tim) to long-term contracts or blocks prospects then I will be extremely happy with the offseason going into ST.
I Don't Tolerate Intolerance!
Jeremy Affeldt Ready To Make His Father Proud
by Giant among Angels on Jan 4, 2009 3:56 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
I love Brian Sabean!
Proud father of Eric Surkamp!!!
by The Thrill on Jan 4, 2009 4:09 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
I Can't Stop Thinking About Brian Sabean
Adoptive father to the All-Father. Does that make me the All-Grandfather?
by EliminateMe on Jan 5, 2009 2:10 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
so far I'm happy with it
But I think the real test will come in a year or two. What we’ve done this offseason is sign players to (possibly) make us competitive now without sacrificing the future. At some point, we’ll see which homegrown players can become everyday contributors, and which will burn out. The real work for the franchise comes then, locking up the useful players, trading the vets (unless they decide we could get a more valuable draft pick from then).
One question I have is what happens if the trading deadline approaches and we’re barely on the fringes of contending? Should Sabean try to trade winn/molina, since their contracts end? What about the guys with 2-3 year contracts? They can probably wait at least another year, but I’m curious about what happens with the players in their last year under contract.
Less arm, more talk. Raisingcain is a GAMER.
Adopted Giant: Henry Sosa
by raisingcain on Jan 4, 2009 4:19 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
It’s probably something that will take care of itself. If the Giants’ are contending they will stay, and if they’re not, it probably means that players like Winn or Molina aren’t doing the job and they wouldn’t get much in return anyway.
Brian Sabean's dad- will make a few phone calls to help his son find a new job after next season
by rxmeister on Jan 4, 2009 4:42 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
If the Giants are on the fringe of contending and Sabean wants to make a run at the postseason, it won’t be guys like Winn and Molina who are traded. It will be players from the minor leagues.
"He called the sh** POOP!" -- Adam Sandler
by JRPhillips on Jan 4, 2009 10:30 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
But that's the dilemma
That could be sacrificing the future. He must decide whether to take the outside shot at the postseason for one year, or keep with the general rebuilding plan. Maybe 2010 is a better example, since more contracts come off the books then.
Less arm, more talk. Raisingcain is a GAMER.
Adopted Giant: Henry Sosa
by raisingcain on Jan 4, 2009 10:48 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
But would you sacrifice the future for a shot at winning your first world series title in likely your lifetime? That’s something one has to weigh. And basically EVERYBODY that Sabean has ever traded away has never amounted to jack shit in the long run. Funny enough I think Foulke and Howry are the only guys who ever (long term) amounted to anything in this league.
I wouldn’t really count Nathan btw since he was already a very good reliever when traded.
by Hobbes2d on Jan 4, 2009 11:21 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
That's a double edged argument, though
The guys Sabean’s traded haven’t amounted to much because the team has been so bad at identifying and developing future major leaguers.
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by Bhaakon on Jan 4, 2009 11:51 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Oh really?
I think that’s an overstated and wrong argument. I’d say the Giants haven’t been any worse than most other teams when it comes to developing players who make the Major Leagues. Especially when talking pitching. They have been among the best in that department. As far as developing star or even decent positional players, that’s a completely different story.
Texas for instance may be able to develop hitters but they cant develop pitching. Same can be said for the Rockies.
The Padres are in the same boat we are in. They can’t develop positional players to save their life. Gonzalez was traded for. I mean I guess you can count Khalil Greene but other than 20 homers he’s been pretty mediocre.
There’s very few teams who have consistently been GOOD at developing talent. And those teams have even had their ups and downs.
by Hobbes2d on Jan 5, 2009 12:18 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Depends on what time frame you're using
Without bothering to look up some statistical breakdown, I think Sebean’s Giants have been moderately above average on pitching, and pretty terrible on position players. Only moderately above average on pitching because the system produced no notable pitchers between Ortiz and Lowry (save Foulke and howry, who were traded). Really, Lincecum is Sabean’s saving grace. If it weren’t for the freak, Cain would be the grand result of a decade of pitching-heavy drafts (which, no disrespect to Cain, would be a rather sad state). As for position players, Feliz is the best player the team’s produced since the mid-ninties… I don’t think there’s much need to beat that dead horse.
The pitching’s been good, but overrated IMO (what were they doing between 1997 and 2000, did it take them that long to figure out how to scout arms?). The position players virtually non-existent. That adds up to a poor job in my book.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
by Bhaakon on Jan 5, 2009 1:25 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Wasn't Joe Nathan Between Ortiz and Lowry?
Freak injuries and health issues (Williams getting Fat) killed AFW which really should have been a very nice trio.
by giantsrainman on Jan 5, 2009 9:47 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Nathan was drafted in 1995, and failed to make a significant positive impact in the majors until 2003.
Liriano was an amateur FA, both he and Bonser debuted after Lowry.
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by Bhaakon on Jan 5, 2009 5:29 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Didn't Know Nathan Was Drafted That Long Ago
When was Ortiz Drafted? Before or after Nathan?
by giantsrainman on Jan 5, 2009 6:53 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Same year.
Ortiz was a 4th round selection, Nathan a 6th rounder. Nathan was originally a SS, IIRC. That and the litany of injuries explain his protracted development.
You’ve got me on Liriano and Bonser, but it only pushed the gap up one season. Of course, both were traded for a year of substandard Pierzynski (in case you blocked that out).
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
by Bhaakon on Jan 5, 2009 7:20 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
thanks for pouring that delightful salty lemon juice in my papercut. I appreciate it.
by tyrannoman on Jan 6, 2009 10:56 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Me likey the Two Florida Marlins rings
by wilriv21 on Jan 5, 2009 12:25 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Didn’t they win those rings primarily by building from within?
"He called the sh** POOP!" -- Adam Sandler
by JRPhillips on Jan 5, 2009 1:26 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
The second one, yes
The first one, absolutely not.
GROUGTHINK ALERT
by groug on Jan 5, 2009 3:18 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
This is the ultimate problem
If the Giants are in contention come late July, there’s a good chance they might go for it and trade away guys from the minor leagues in hopes of making a run at the playoffs. But here’s the problem with trading away your minor league talent for a shot at postseason glory for one year: If it doesn’t work out (only one team wins the WS each year), there’s a dang good chance you might screw over your team again for years to come. Imagine if Sabean starts moving Bumgarner, Alderson, Noonan, etc. for some rental players so we can make a run at the World Series for this one year. And even if he does, there’s still no guarantee of success. So while it might seem worth it at the time of the trades, will it still seem worth it in November?
"He called the sh** POOP!" -- Adam Sandler
by JRPhillips on Jan 5, 2009 1:25 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
That is the gamble every team makes at that point.
The ideal situation would be not to trade Alderson and Bumgarner for really good players, but to trade the Darren Ford’s of the MiL system for a Durham like player.
What you really don’t want to see is us trading Alderson and Noonan for Holliday at the deadline.
by FairweatherFan on Jan 5, 2009 3:15 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
The real question
I think what you are highlighting is the real question… Has Sabean embraced youth as the way to build a team long term, or is he just going to go back to short-term goals if just getting in to the playoffs seems within reach? Was Bonds’ age and Magowan’s hunger for a title the main drivers in dealing for “vets with one more run,” or is it intrinsically the way Sabean will always behave?
Probably most of us prefer to support a team with a lot of continuity… that most deals should have long-term upside and that budgets should be used principally to retain great players. I don’t think the free agent era has changed what we still want.
"[Greg] Vaughn is in a funk so deep, George Clinton wearing a miner's helmet couldn't find him."
- Jim Baker, ESPN.com, May 2002
by achiappanza on Jan 5, 2009 5:24 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
No serious mistakes yet
By not committing to more than two years in any of his free agent signings and not trading away any future prospects, Brian has yet to make a serious mistake with regard to the future, while at least giving the Giants a CHANCE in 2009.
by sharksrog on Jan 6, 2009 1:40 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, this is what I was trying to find opinions about. (Although, I meant if they were a bit farther back, and had only a small chance at the playoffs)
Basically, as you said, that’s a very risky move. I’m not sure I would make it. There’s a slight chance we’d make the playoffs, but would we really be good enough to go far? Maybe the playoffs are kind of a crapshoot, but it’s still a disadvantage to be one of the worse teams. And if it doesn’t work out, then the Giants organization is completely fucked. We’ve already suffered through several losing seasons, might as well build for the future. If we trade away the future, then we have a very good chance of having a decade-long stretch (started a few years ago) of fans dieing slow, painful deaths.
Less arm, more talk. Raisingcain is a GAMER.
Adopted Giant: Henry Sosa
by raisingcain on Jan 5, 2009 5:31 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Does Sabean Know What he's Doing??
Check out The Examined Life. Or don't. Whatever.
"I been waitin' a long time for this! I been waitin' since the f**kin' amateurs!" --WILL "THE THRILL" CLARK
by Josh from Hollywood on Jan 4, 2009 4:27 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Who has the fun?
Is it always the man with the gun?
- The Stranglers
by victor frankenstein on Jan 4, 2009 8:53 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I like the moves so far
Sabean seems to be doing an adequate job. it’s clear that there is a different strategy in place. They are making short-term veteran FA moves w/o sacrificing the future and making the team more watchable in the process. I’m hopeful that this is a sign of things to come, but it isn’t as if Sabean doesn’t have a history to be concerned about.
However, if things continue with the current trend, I’ll buy (more than I have) that Magowan was the real problem before.
Proud adopted parent of future big league slugger Thomas Neal
by nostocksjustbonds on Jan 4, 2009 5:46 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
A's got Matt Holliday for replaceable players
I’d say Beane is doing fine.
Proud adopted parent of future big league slugger Thomas Neal
by nostocksjustbonds on Jan 4, 2009 5:47 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
The Holliday trade would have been good if he hadn’t traded his whole pitching staff last year for a bunch of kids. It makes no sense to now trade kids for one year of Matt Holliday when he doesn’t have the talent around him to contend.
Brian Sabean's dad- will make a few phone calls to help his son find a new job after next season
by rxmeister on Jan 4, 2009 7:26 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
The plan was and apparently still is to surround Holliday with talent. Oakland really wanted to sign Furcal for SS and leadoff. They still are talking to Abreu, Giambi etc. The A’s have a few pitchers ready to make an impact. The Angels will fall back to the pack and the A’s could be vastly improved.
by wilriv21 on Jan 4, 2009 7:34 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
agreed. There’s still plenty of time and an unbelievable amount of free agents left. I just read there’s still over 150 free agents remaining. Have there ever been that many free agents available this late in the offseason?? There’s going to be some real bargains at the end. Fortunately you can’t say that Sabean jumped the gun, because the players he signed are better than what’s out there. Affeldt was the best non closer lefty out there, Howry was cheap and not offered arbitration, there’s no better shortstop than Renteria out there right now, and atlhough there’s better starters than a 45 year old Big Unit, he fit the Giants’ one year need more than anyone else could have.
Brian Sabean's dad- will make a few phone calls to help his son find a new job after next season
by rxmeister on Jan 5, 2009 6:04 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
plus, the Giants’ have certanity at a few positions moving forward. They know the rotation is set, they know who is playing SS, and the bullpen is pretty much in place. Now you can target certain positions and try to wait out the market without any real needs.
by tyrannoman on Jan 5, 2009 8:34 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
The best and most important thing Sabean has done this winter is shore up the pitching staff. We all talk like SF had very good pitching in 2008 but the pitching gave up a ton of runs and needed to improve. Yes the offense needs upgrading but by upgrading the pitching Sabean has improve the team very much.
by wilriv21 on Jan 5, 2009 9:00 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes
My god we walked a lot of batters last year.
We don't really have that much pitching depth. We don't really have that much pitching depth. FOR GOD SAKE, VERUCA, DON'T GO FAKE TRADING JONATHAN SANCHEZ. We don't really have that much pitching depth
by oldjacket on Jan 5, 2009 9:06 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
That’s true, though I for one am worried about our defense’s affect on the staff. We’re weak up the middle and have a pretty porous looking infield. We could end up fairly strong in FIP and still give up a bushel of runs. And then of course, there’s still the walk thing which is partially addressed with Affeldt, Howry, Romo, and Johnson, but with Cain, Zito, Timmy, Wilson, Henshaw,etc. there’s still going to be plenty of free baserunners to go around — not a good thing when every 10 hopper to the left side has the potential to be a single.
Get the hell out the way Bengie, Pablito's hit the show!
by Roger on Jan 5, 2009 9:26 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
The defense
My defensive philosophy is that ALL defenders have to make the routine plays. The catcher needs to have the faith of the staff, call a solid game and control the running game. The SS and 2b should be above average defensively. The CF needs to control the outfield, catch everything gap to gap and have a solid accurate arm.
At Mays Field an above average RF is also needed.
by wilriv21 on Jan 5, 2009 10:35 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
The second most important thing he’s done has been to improve the depth. By bringing Jesus into our lives, we have a Plan B at 3rd. By adding Renteria, Burriss becomes Plan B at SS. Phelps gives the team a “Plan B” at 1B.
It was lack of Plan Bs that gave us things like Castillo at 3B, Bocock at SS and Bowkock at 1B last season.
My adopted Giant: "Raptor Jesus" Guzman
by Goofus on Jan 5, 2009 9:39 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
The offense
Believe a second season of Fred Lewis plus full seasons of Kevin Frandsen, Edgar Renteria, Pablito Sandoval and hopefully the good Aaron Rowand the Giants should be more productive.
by wilriv21 on Jan 5, 2009 10:19 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I’ve been saying the same thing, but others have pointed out that those things will be partially offset by no Durham and likely regression of Molina.
we’ll see.
My adopted Giant: "Raptor Jesus" Guzman
by Goofus on Jan 5, 2009 11:53 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
How does Ray’s removal offset production?
Who has the fun?
Is it always the man with the gun?
- The Stranglers
by victor frankenstein on Jan 5, 2009 12:06 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Durham was really good at getting on base. You can’t say the same for most of the current Giants.
by Natto on Jan 5, 2009 12:20 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Last year
Ray Durham was a good hitter last year, recovering from a disasterous 2007 season. He actually was a pretty good hitter overall as a Giant, with his biggest problems being staying healthy and not denting the ball with his glove.
by sharksrog on Jan 5, 2009 12:51 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Ray Also Had One Very Positive Defensive Atribute
He was one of the quickest I have ever seen at turning two or starting two. He did not make many errors either. His defensive problems were all about range and i suspect all tied to his hamstrings just as his reduced base running skills and DL tme were.
by giantsrainman on Jan 5, 2009 12:59 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
He couldn’t field a backhand to save his life, though
Wall-E for Best Picture 2008
by Useful_Idiot on Jan 5, 2009 3:45 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Fortunately He Was Playing 2B And Could Thus Just Knock Them Down
pick them out and still have time to make the throw to firstbase. And my eyes told me he did this alot.
by giantsrainman on Jan 5, 2009 3:52 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Hmmm...
…having Vizquel there couldn’t have been a disadvantage either.
Who has the fun?
Is it always the man with the gun?
- The Stranglers
by victor frankenstein on Jan 5, 2009 3:58 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Not on balls to his backhand
My adopted Giant: "Raptor Jesus" Guzman
by Goofus on Jan 5, 2009 4:37 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Backhand For 2B Is Up The Middle
I don’t know of any left handed 2Bs.
by giantsrainman on Jan 5, 2009 4:46 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
oops! My bad! being a lefty, I pictured it in my mind quickly and forgot I was a lefty.
My adopted Giant: "Raptor Jesus" Guzman
by Goofus on Jan 6, 2009 5:47 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
what about
backhands to his balls?
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
by zenbitz on Jan 5, 2009 9:39 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
This answers Vic’s question.
I don’t expect whoever wins the starting 2B job to put up Durham-type numbers, so it’ll offset offensive gains elsewhere.
My adopted Giant: "Raptor Jesus" Guzman
by Goofus on Jan 5, 2009 4:39 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes To A Small Extent
But in no way is the offensive advantage of Durham over the winner of the 2B competition going to match the offensive advantage of Sandoval and Renteria over the offensive clowns we had on the left side of the infield last year. Net the 2009 Giants will be better offensively (I think significantly) then the 2008 Giants were.
by giantsrainman on Jan 5, 2009 4:49 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't know
it’s certainly not unreasonable to think that some 3 or even 4 of Sandoval, Renteria, Rowand, Winn, and Molina will have worse offensive numbers than last year; Sandoval because he’ll have his first experience with major league scouting and the ability of people at this level to expose and pound a hitter’s weakness, and the others because of age and/or natural decline (I certainly hope it’s not Pablito, but it wouldn’t surprise me that much).
Get the hell out the way Bengie, Pablito's hit the show!
by Roger on Jan 6, 2009 7:49 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Well, Sandoval would have to regress a LOT to be worse than Castillo
by FairweatherFan on Jan 6, 2009 8:42 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, let’s just file that thought away under “Worst Nightmares”. Nevertheless, in talking about the team offense as a whole, it’s easy to see it generating about the same level of production as last year, or better put it’s hard to make a definitive case for it’s improvement that isn’t relying on a lot of wishes and hopes.
Get the hell out the way Bengie, Pablito's hit the show!
by Roger on Jan 6, 2009 9:02 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree
I expect the team offensive to be about the same or slightly better than last year.
I see improvements @ 1b, 3b, SS, and CF. Regression @ 2b, C, LF and RF.
It is really going to come down to magnitudes and if anyone has a breakout year.
by FairweatherFan on Jan 6, 2009 10:25 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
The Projection Systems Agree With You.
But the see the magnitude of the improvements exceeding the magnitude of regressions resulting in a real improvement in the overall offense.
by giantsrainman on Jan 6, 2009 12:59 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
tyring to imagine the scouting report on Pablo makes me laugh. He seems to swing at (and hit) every thing every time.
by tyrannoman on Jan 6, 2009 11:04 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Renteria
I expect Edgar Renteria to bounce back to .290 or above, but I agree that the other four players you mentioned — plus Fred Lewis — are good candidates for decline. I do think Aaron Rowand might improve a bit, but I don’t see a huge bounce-back coming, and as you correctly point out, he might actually decline again.
by sharksrog on Jan 6, 2009 1:42 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Edgar really needs a bounce back year offensively. Because my wife’s from Detroit we caught a couple Tigers series last year (in Michigan and again in Baltimore), and I have to say I was just amazed by some the balls he didn’t get to. He really appeared at times to be the Eddie (“have glove will wave”) Murray of SS. Without a strong bat, I just don’t see how he’s going to stay on a major league field much longer. In fact, I’d say that other than Johnny Damon’s arm, Renteria’s range was the most shocking performance I saw at the ol’ ballpark last season.
Get the hell out the way Bengie, Pablito's hit the show!
by Roger on Jan 6, 2009 2:15 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Title Response
If you had asked me anytime but right now, I would have said no. Now I say maybe.
72-90 - TIMMY FOR CY YOUNG!!!
Adopted Giant: Daryl Maday - The roller coaster ride continues - Augusta to Norwich to San Jose, the latter of which has been a success so far. 1.59 ERA.
by rhys on Jan 4, 2009 7:56 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Eras
Brian Sabean was very good through the end of the 2002 season. He then was lousy until the 2006 draft. Since then he has been good again, even while taking a new approach.
by sharksrog on Jan 5, 2009 11:57 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, Mr. Lowe
You hold out for that 5-year deal. I hear Bullsh*tville is nice in the summer.
STEVE HOLM! refuses to be the odd man out.
by UnleashTheGore on Jan 5, 2009 12:01 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Don't act Lowe
Just what is wrong with Derek Lowe’s holding out for a five-year deal at this point? I’m not saying he deserves it, but what is wrong with his trying to achieve it, particularly when he’s likely to provide more value per dollar than the average free agent pitcher?
Derek is still “just” 35, and his ERA+ numbers in the National League have been 114, 125, 118 and 131. That’s pretty close to #1 starter territory.
A.J. Burnett got a five-year contract, and he hasn’t been nearly as healthy as Derek. Burnett has fabulous potential, but he has pitched more than 100 fewer innings than Lowe over the past four seasons and has put up ERA+ numbers of 115, 115, 11 and 105.
Lowe will almost certainly receive less money than Burnett, even if he does achieve his five-year pact. To me, Lowe looks a bit more attractive than Burnett, despite being three years older. I think the age differential is offset by the health advantage.
Lowe’s career ERA+ of 122 is twice as much better than average as Burnett’s 111.
by sharksrog on Jan 5, 2009 1:03 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
The Giants could do worse
Than signing Lowe and trading Sanchez or (gasp) Cain.
by FairweatherFan on Jan 5, 2009 3:17 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
With our IF defense? I suppose we could do worse, but we’d have to try.
We don't really have that much pitching depth. We don't really have that much pitching depth. FOR GOD SAKE, VERUCA, DON'T GO FAKE TRADING JONATHAN SANCHEZ. We don't really have that much pitching depth
by oldjacket on Jan 5, 2009 3:23 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Not if it takes 5 years
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on Jan 5, 2009 3:23 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Sign Lowe (4Yrs $52M) Trade Cain and Ishikawa To Texas for Chris Davis And Their Best Pitching Prospect
Works for me.
by giantsrainman on Jan 5, 2009 3:36 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
This trade scenario needs Adrian Gonzalez!
by xanthan on Jan 5, 2009 3:59 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Who has the fun?
Is it always the man with the gun?
- The Stranglers
by victor frankenstein on Jan 5, 2009 4:05 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t think we’d be able to get their best pitching prospect for Cain/Ishikawa, tbh (if we’re getting Davis too.) Neftali Feliz is supposed to be a very special prospect
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on Jan 5, 2009 5:31 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
+1
For some perspective, Feliz was rated only a few spots lower than bumgarner on the minorleagueball prospect list. And that list generally overrates giants prospects.
Less arm, more talk. Raisingcain is a GAMER.
Adopted Giant: Henry Sosa
by raisingcain on Jan 5, 2009 5:33 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Is 0.8 big or small?
Matt Cain lost 0.8 mph off his fastball last season. Is that a big deal or just noise?
by sharksrog on Jan 6, 2009 1:44 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Cain
Said he’s going to slow down his fastball in order to throw more strikes.
..so allow me to present Tim Lincecum and Matt Cain as two sweet, sweet bottles of warming hooch.
by Cookyman on Jan 8, 2009 11:18 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Problem?
With Matt having already lost 0.8 mph off his fastball, if he slows it down to throw more strikes, is he asking for it to be hit more often? I might recommend it on his first pitch, so he can get ahead more often, but I’m not sure doing so after that makes sense in the at bat.
And once batters see that Matt is goosing up that first pitch, they might begin swinging at it a lot — perhaps with impressive results.
by sharksrog on Jan 8, 2009 11:17 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I think the attempt to throw more strikes was what he said before last season, so that comment accounts for the loss of .8 mph.
GROUGTHINK ALERT
by groug on Jan 9, 2009 12:26 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Yup.
..so allow me to present Tim Lincecum and Matt Cain as two sweet, sweet bottles of warming hooch.
by Cookyman on Jan 9, 2009 2:45 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I guess it's possible
My comment results mostly out of what I would do, not what might actually happen. I thought the Burnett deal was silly too, and yeah, I’d rather have Lowe as well if you put a gun to my head. I just don’t think he’ll be worth it, and I would be slightly surprised if he got a 5-year deal somewhere.
It is nice to see the Dodgers relying so heavily on Billingsley, though. Without any other major moves, I think they stick towards the middle to bottom of the NL West next year.
STEVE HOLM! refuses to be the odd man out.
by UnleashTheGore on Jan 5, 2009 4:50 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I still think he deserves to lose at least one testicle somehow, and no, he cannot replace it with a prostetic one for appearances.
by Norm Median on Jan 5, 2009 12:12 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Maybe.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Jan 5, 2009 9:19 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
One thing to remember,
all FAs are over-priced. There are probably a half dozen teams that would sign any one FA if they could sign him for his true worth. Then there are usually 2 or 3 additional teams willing to overpay. The only way you might get a bargain is to sign someone coming off a bad year. But how many of you would want to sign Andruw Jones if he were a FA? Because of that, I don’t mind Sabean overpaying a little.
I also think that the good job Sabean has done this season leads me to believe the rumors that Magowan was interfering too much, and might bear some of the responsibilty for the bad signing.
My one big complaint with Sabean is the aforemention trade to get AJ. I didn’t know it was a bad trade at the time, but I think a good GM should have. And in retrospect, Nathan was a perfect candidate to be a closer. He was converted from SS, and in most such conversions, injuries are inevitable. Not starting would have helped in that regard. He had the fastball to be a closer, why didn’t the Giants ever try him in that role?
Greetings, Marklar! I am Marklar! This is Marklar.
by marklar on Jan 6, 2009 12:58 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Nathan on ordinary Joe
Joe Nathan was dominant for long stretches of the 2003 season. It appeared Brian Sabean and the Giants soured on him because he didn’t perform well in the 2003 post-season.
Apparently they weren’t familar with the concept of small sample size.
by sharksrog on Jan 6, 2009 1:46 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
For all we know
There was an attitude issue there that contributed.
by FairweatherFan on Jan 6, 2009 1:57 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Bonser
I do know that the Giants had soured on Bonser’s attitude. If Joe Nathan had a bad attitude, it might go to show of how little importance a bad attitude is if a guy can play.
by sharksrog on Jan 6, 2009 2:16 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I think it is safe to assume
That many players have attitude problems. You don’t go your whole life being the best baseball player anyone that knows you has ever known w/o getting a little bit of a distorted perspective on life.
Bad attitude + good player is usually accepted, but bad attitude + borderline player may be enough to get you shipped out of town.
There is a lot that we, as fans, do not see.
by FairweatherFan on Jan 6, 2009 2:25 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
One of Joe Nathan’s first comments in Minn was about how nice it felt to be on a team where everyone was treated as equals. Maybe he didn’t like Barry’s recliner taking up so much space.
Fairley odd parent to Wendell
by WTF on Jan 6, 2009 3:32 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Look at the guy we got in return. Pierzinsky had lots of talent but the man was at the center of way too many clubhouse problems
Wall-E for Best Picture 2008
by Useful_Idiot on Jan 6, 2009 5:12 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Right.
Attitude can be an issue. Speaking of which, I would now like every single person who is favor of Manny to remember AJ and how well that worked out.
by FairweatherFan on Jan 6, 2009 5:44 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
If AJ could hit like Manny,
we would all be a lot more forgiving. One of the reasons we hate that guy so much is he stunk it up so badly at the plate. Manny’s bat will get him a lot more indulgence than AJ’s ever will.
Greetings, Marklar! I am Marklar! This is Marklar.
by marklar on Jan 6, 2009 6:29 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
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