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because most people around here are fans of the San Francisco Giants.
by FluLikeSymptoms on Jan 29, 2009 4:32 PM PST up reply actions
I’m not so much about protecting Bonds as I am about saying: Get real people! For as long as there have been athletes there have been ways to enhance performance. All the surgeries and stuff we have now that prolong careers… the changing balls and dimensions of ball parks….
Baseball needed to draw the fans back after the strike so they when it was convenient and financially expedient they looked the other way. Now they want to come back and penalize players ? Now looking the other way is a bad business decision. bah- whatever… this whole topic makes my blood boil.
Trust me , mods , it's a cooler head. I apologize for the outburst.
Because he brought excitement and respect and a whole lot of good feeling to an organization we align ourselves with , and while deep in our hearts we may understand the lack of purity we’re still caught up in the sentimentality.
Maybe I only speak for myself , but it’s not an easy thing to simply dump that by the side of the road and drive away.
This just in...Bobby Estallela can suck a dead donkey dick.
by victor frankenstein on Jan 29, 2009 6:02 PM PST up reply actions
but don’t you think he brought this all on himself by being full of shit?
I enjoyed his playing days as much as anyone and celebrated all his milestones, but I don’t have any respect for him as a human.
If he simply told the truth, I probably would.
I too am a pretty big Giants fan btw.
Fairley odd parent to Wendell
I don’t think he brought all of this on himself. I think he’s getting about 1,000 times more than he deserves, and about 1,000 times more than many who are just as guilty. I think that the kind of human he is should not be a factor in the kind of treatment he receives from a supposedly unbiased media.
I also don’t quite get the connection between admitting that he used PEDs and being released from all the rancor. I don’t see how saying, “Yes, I did it, and I’m really, really sorry” would change the essential fact that he cheated. I hear this a lot: “Well, if he’d just admit it, like Giambi did, all of this would go away.” Why? If I commit a crime, can I just go to the police a week later and say, “I committed a crime and I’m really sorry about it.”, will they say, “Hey, no problem. As long as you’re genuinely sorry, that’s the most important thing.”? And anyway, I really have serious doubts that if Barry had admitted to PED use right from the beginning that things would be much different for him in the public opinion arena than they are now.
What are we getting after here, anyway? What’s the end game? Is it really to rid the sporting world of PEDs? Because to be honest, I get the impression that this isn’t about saving our children from the horrors of PEDs. I think it’s about seeing Barry Bonds frog-walked in an orange (no black) jumpsuit off to the pokey.
Why couldn't McCovey have hit the ball just three feet higher??
And what if he came out and said, yes, I used the clear, and it was legal. The ESPN headline the next day – “BONDS ADMITS HE’S A CHEATER”. The legal part wouldn’t even find its way into the article. Either way he’d be crucified, and if he admitted to anything, he’d be in jail. He’s obviously not going to go that route.
by Missing Barry on Jan 29, 2009 7:55 PM PST up reply actions
Wow! Get out of here!
Are you not a Giants fan? Do you not understand what Barry did for our team for years and years? This witch hunt is a total joke and has gotta stop.
Also. Estalella is a sack of crap for doing this. Maybe he’ll write a book too.
Check out my blog at www.dantheman85x.blogspot.com
by dantheman85x on Jan 31, 2009 1:12 PM PST up reply actions
preemptive link fail…
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2009/01/28/sports/s153028S86.DTL&tsp=1
Fairley odd parent to Wendell
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2009/01/28/sports/s153028S86.DTL&tsp=1
The Basil Fawlty Moderating Strategy:
"We could run a nice blog here if we didn't have all these members getting in the way."
I like how ESPN has such knowledgeable sources that they can tell us Estalella turned on Bonds without citing facts, while ignoring details like the clear was legal. Estalella was subpoenaed, his testimony probably won’t mean shit in the outcome of the case. Unless he can stand up as a credible witness and testify that he saw Bonds take something and Bonds acknowledged it was an anabolic steroid…unlikely at best. This should barely be news at all, except for the fact that ESPN is waging war against Bonds.
by Missing Barry on Jan 29, 2009 7:20 PM PST up reply actions
I think he is prepared to testify that he and Barry injected anabolic steroids together in the Mays Field men’s room while signing a song called “we are knowingly injecting illegal anabolic steroids”
by FluLikeSymptoms on Jan 29, 2009 7:42 PM PST up reply actions
I’m imagining it as a drinking tune.
Ohhhhhhhhh, we know it’s illegal
and not very healthy
But these ’roids produce dingers
and dingers make me wealthy
They help us recover
after lengthy workout sessions
we’ll add lots of muscle mass
and there won’t be any questions
Because the people love home runs,
We’re happy to oblige
The reporters won’t care,
and Bud’s on our side
Sammy and Big Mac are doing it,
so we have to keep keep pace
The opposing pitcher did it,
and now he’s their ace
You may scream, you may shout
“That’s cheating!”, you holler
But it’s an easy decision to make
When I can gain millions of dollars
This juicing, it might end up
biting us in the ass
but I don’t really see why
everybody’s making lots of cash
So when you go out to the ballpark
See me putting on my lid
Remember I’m not a role model
Just an athletic, overgrown kid
Barry Zito - Mildly half-OK! Sometimes.
Outstanding! I Am Here This To A Janis Joplin Tune
Oh Lord won’t you buy me
a Mercedes Benz
My Friends all drive porsches
I must make amends
May I suggest you modify the opening verse to:
Oh Lord we know it’s illegal
and unhealthy
But these roids make dingers
and dingers make us wealthy
by giantsrainman on Jan 29, 2009 8:33 PM PST up reply actions
"Here" Was Supose To Be "Hearing"
But I type too fast and didn’t proof read as usual.
by giantsrainman on Jan 29, 2009 8:43 PM PST up reply actions
When Estalella's name first came up in this whole steroids mess, was anyone really surprised?
Giants! Giants! HELP US GOD!
Yeah, sure. In the outfield.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Jan 30, 2009 1:08 AM PST up reply actions
Whoops… had him confused with Armando Rios for a brief, deeply fatigued moment there.
Please amend that in your minds to apply to a catcher.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Jan 30, 2009 1:10 AM PST up reply actions
Does any find this funny...
Greg Anderson, Bonds’ trainer, advising him to use human growth hormone, the steroids “the cream” and “the clear,” and the female fertility drug Clomid.
its poetic justice
Best sign you didn't see on TV during the 2008 WS...WS tickets $250...Parking $30...Beer $9...Not having to listen to Joe Buck...Priceless
Hey, I think we already established that Bonds loves kids. I think it’s only natural to want to make that a Junior-sized kind of love.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Jan 30, 2009 7:05 AM PST up reply actions
Bobby Estalella is probably the worst witness they could call. First of all, he supposedly testified in the Balco trial that he had no knowledge of other players using steroids. Now he’s going to say he knows Bonds’ did it?? How can anyone consider him a credible witness?? And second of all, his testimony lends credence to the idea that this trial is a Bonds witch hunt. Estalella is admitting here he lied on the stand, and the govt has taken no action against him, so why are they putting Bonds on trial?? Is he on trial for being better than the other players that used steroids?? The amazing thing to me is that this trial is actually going to take place. Every judge that has looked at it has said it’s a joke and demanded that the prosecution redo the charges. It’s surprising to me that one judge hasn’t finally just taken it and thrown it out. What a waste of time and taxpayer money.
Brian Sabean's dad- will make a few phone calls to help his son find a new job after next season
It's not their money!
wait…what?
This just in...Bobby Estalella can apply oral suction to a deceased pack animal's penile extremity.
by victor frankenstein on Jan 30, 2009 8:00 AM PST up reply actions
/ rant
The ignorance of this ongoing trial , the government’s evidence and the credible witnesses are shameful. It is a modern form of "McCarthyism"
The primary difference, as with everything in this decade, is that this is about greed. MLB, aided by the government and by racist blowhards in the Senate and justice departments, are spending taxpayer money to investigate an individual, not the issue, and they have of course found the perfect scapegoat.
MLB is a business. The purist movement in baseball is driven by sportswriters and the commissioner to protect their pocket books, more than the integrity of the game. If the concern is about the integrity of the game, every individual mentioned in the Mitchell report, and every athlete linked to steroid use would be censored or sanctioned, as well as every athlete ever linked to drug use of any kind. I’m looking at you Roger Clemens, as well as Ruth, Mantle, Aaron, Rose, Bench, and much of the players in the modern era of baseball that have ever used any chemical substance to enhance their play. Pitchers on steroids threw the ball to hitters on steroids, that either hit it out of the park, or it was fielded by fielders on steroids. These guys are just pissed of that Bonds did it better than anyone, chemicals or not. Between 2000 and 2004 they walked the guy 900 times
Please just stop with the false morality and purity of the game bullsh*t. I love baseball, but this is just a crock of sh*t. It is what it is. Acknowledge what happened and move on.
Much like the TARP program for the investment and banking community, the answers are not important, as long as all of the good old boys are being paid.
I am so happy to see this period of the "morality police" coming to an end. How about we tell the truth to people and let them make up their own minds. Let us not spend my money for you tell me how to feel. How about we spend my money to educate my children, my grandchildren, repair the roads on which I drive to get to my job, to pay the taxes for my government to do the right and moral thing for my country and its people.
"Just take the ball and throw it where you want to. Throw strikes. Home plate don't move."-Leroy "Satchel" Paige
My adopted son Matt Downs . Utility Infielder with a Bat !
Is your road broken?
You must be talking about the I – 15 , lol
This just in...Bobby Estalella can apply oral suction to a deceased pack animal's penile extremity.
by victor frankenstein on Jan 30, 2009 9:18 AM PST up reply actions
Pretty much all of the roads in Nevada are broken. That is what happens when your tax base is Tourism and Sales Tax :-)
"Just take the ball and throw it where you want to. Throw strikes. Home plate don't move."-Leroy "Satchel" Paige
My adopted son Matt Downs . Utility Infielder with a Bat !
Pretty much all of the roads in Nevada are is broken.
Oh , yeah. Not the only gaming in town anymore. The foreign tourist contingent was really propping it up there for awhile but now this downturn is sort of global. Franz and Gerta might just tube the Rhine instead…
The “Third straw” fiasco…supposedly when it finally comes online it’ll already be above the waterline.
Oscar Goodman.
Well , at least he’s trying…
This just in...Bobby Estalella can apply oral suction to a deceased pack animal's penile extremity.
by victor frankenstein on Jan 30, 2009 9:58 AM PST up reply actions
WHATEVER YOU DO
DO NOT take the “Express Lane” South of Las Vegas on I-15. Especially at night.
The Basil Fawlty Moderating Strategy:
"We could run a nice blog here if we didn't have all these members getting in the way."
Or attempt your first exodus from Vegas at night on the 15 driving a Miata.
The proper offramp signage may elude you because you CAN’T SEE A DAMNED THING DOWN HERE and you’ll be miles out of your way on the 95 before you realize your error.
The car kicked ass , though.
Tiptronic/paddle shifters.
Shimmied at 80…but not at 90.
This just in...Bobby Estalella can apply oral suction to a deceased pack animal's penile extremity.
by victor frankenstein on Jan 31, 2009 12:14 PM PST up reply actions
Question
Having not followed this latest news, is Estelella possibly being threatened with perjury/obstruction/whatever and therefore being compelled to testify? If so, getting on the witness stand and yapping sure seems to beat jail time.
I wouldn’t expect Bobby to have the same loyalty to Bonds and Greggy.
My adopted Giant: "Raptor Jesus" Guzman
Where’s Santiago in all this mess?
This just in...Bobby Estalella can apply oral suction to a deceased pack animal's penile extremity.
by victor frankenstein on Jan 30, 2009 10:01 AM PST up reply actions
He’s out in an institution somewhere swinging ridiculously hard at imaginary baseballs.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Jan 30, 2009 10:30 AM PST up reply actions
And...
still throwing people out from his knees.
"Just take the ball and throw it where you want to. Throw strikes. Home plate don't move."-Leroy "Satchel" Paige
My adopted son Matt Downs . Utility Infielder with a Bat !
Imaginary people.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Jan 30, 2009 12:51 PM PST up reply actions
Don't Pick on Benito
I will always have fond memories of Benito from that 2002 playoff series with the Cardinals when everytime they pitched around Barry he made them pay.
Brian Sabean's dad- will make a few phone calls to help his son find a new job after next season
No, I loved Benito. I never saw anybody swing harder than he did, either 9saw plenty swing better, but efficiency is not the same as sheer force). It probably cost him quite a few hits, but when he connected with that swing – and I mean really connected – it was a hell of a lot of fun to watch.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Jan 30, 2009 4:01 PM PST up reply actions
The true definition of swinging out of your ass
Giant Dirtbags: Brian Anderson, Todd Jennings, Steve Hammond, John Bowker
Don't F with the Affeldt
by Giant among Angels on Jan 30, 2009 10:32 PM PST up reply actions
I just watched that 2002 World Series highlights show on MLB network, and as much as he made the Cardinals pay for walking Barry, he sure as hell did nothing against the Angels. Man, it seemed like everytime he batted it was with one out and the bases loaded and he didn’t come through.
Brian Sabean's dad- will make a few phone calls to help his son find a new job after next season
He was talking about Benito.
Giant Dirtbags: Brian Anderson, Todd Jennings, Steve Hammond, John Bowker
Don't F with the Affeldt
by Giant among Angels on Jan 31, 2009 6:58 PM PST up reply actions
Ummm . . . the prosecution is NOT about performance enhancers . . .
It’s about lying under oath about whether he knew he was taking such substances. Regardless of whether or not you think that it was morally acceptable to be taking PEDs at that point in baseball history, I would hope that everyone would agree that lying to a grand jury under oath is not acceptable in a society that wants to have a well-functioning legal system. IF the feds prove that Bonds lied under oath, then it is right and proper that he be convicted and sentenced to a nice long term of confinement. And if Bonds took drugs and didn’t want to answer truthfully, he could have taken the Fifth Amendment and avoided perjuring himself.
On the merits, I don’t think we know from the NYT and ESPN reporting much more that we did before. The new pieces of information are:
1. Estalella may testify. But to what? That Bonds was doping? Insofar as this trial, so what—Bonds ADMITTED to the grand jury that he was doping with the cream and the clear. Now, if Estalella is going to say “Bonds told me that Greg Anderson sells great steroids” then Bonds has a problem. But I haven’t seen any reporting about WHAT Estalella is going to say.
2. The Giambi boys may be called to explain the calendar system used by BALCO to dope. Again, so what—unless they can establish that certain codes refer to a type of doping (injections) which Bonds denied at the grand jury. Then it gets more interesting.
The evidence thus far is entirely consistent with the possibility that the feds at this point only have Bonds’s supposed admissions to the ex-mistress (a problematic witness in terms of credibility, given her motive for disparaging Bonds) and the powerful (to me) circumstantial case that he had so many drug contacts that he must have known what he was taking. The feds may have more, but none of the ESPN or NYT stuff to date really shows that.
by NiceGuysFinishEtc on Jan 30, 2009 1:30 PM PST reply actions
According to Yahoo, the Cream and the Clear were legal when the Balco athletes were questioned. Grand jury testimony shows the government was aware that the athletes did not break the law, but tried to lay a perjury trap for them because those were the only charges they could bring against them. All the while the Feds were spending taxpayer money to conduct this investigation, with the aforementioned goal of perjury. It seems to me it’s a much more morally/legally gray area than just “Athlete A committed perjury, they should go to jail”, especially if 2X2L is right about not being able to take the fifth.
by Missing Barry on Jan 30, 2009 3:17 PM PST up reply actions
Citation to that eminent legal authority Yahoo demonstrating the legality of “cream” and “clear” please?
2X2L is right—I had forgotten about the limited immunity. So Bonds’ choices were:
1. Refuse to answer the questions and risk imprisonment for contempt of court, similar to Greg Anderson.
or
2. Tell the truth.
Is lying under oath justified when the government is wasting taxpayer money?
I’m not saying the government can prove that Bonds lied by denying that he knew he was taking PEDs. But if they do prove that, it’s perjury and he should do his time.
by NiceGuysFinishEtc on Jan 30, 2009 8:02 PM PST up reply actions
"the prosecution is NOT about performance enhancers . . ."
It’s about perjury traps set where there was insufficient evidence to charge anyone with any crime other than one that allegedly occurred after the BALCOn grand jury was convened.
So Bonds may have walked into a “perjury trap”? Does that justify lying under oath. Reminder to all those who want to compare the government action here to McCarthyism—the folks who challenged McCarthy and the HUAC cited freedom of speech and assembly and refused to testify, facing contempt charges to protect their constitutional freedoms. Bonds may be proven to have lied under oath . . . to protect his constitutional right to dope? to be free of dumb government investigations? Puh-lease.
by NiceGuysFinishEtc on Jan 30, 2009 8:05 PM PST up reply actions
Lying under oath isn't justified
Neither are malicious prosecutions instigated by vendetta-driven IRS agents on fishing expeditions, who are trying to create crimes when they don’t have sufficient evidence to get a conviction on any initial crime. Without the malicious prosecution, there is no grand jury, no perjury trap, and no perjury trial.
I haven’t mentioned McCarthy or HUAC, so I’m afraid I don’t understand their relevance in your reply to me.
First, the McCarthy reference was above. Not mentioned by you, of course.
Second, let’s unpack some of the language here. “Malicious prosecution”, as you use it here, must mean the feds’ decision to chase after the owners and employees of BALCO. You disagree with the feds’ decision to pursue the distribution of PEDs by BALCO. So that prosecution is malicious in the sense that you disagree with it. The feds successfully managed to put the BALCO crew behind bars, so it certainly wasn’t malicious prosecution in the conventional sense of the term.
So is it OK to lie under oath if you disagree with a prosecutor’s choice of targets? IF Bonds made knowingly false statements under oath (and nobody’s proved anything yet), he should face the consequences for his own decision.
by NiceGuysFinishEtc on Jan 30, 2009 8:42 PM PST up reply actions
Responding to multiple comments
First, here is the Yahoo article:
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=Am3dP.nX4rxHLoKhbkHn2bo5nYcB?slug=li-clear011409&prov=yhoo&type=lgns
For the record, the claim that the clear and the cream were legal is based on grand jury testimony – the same testimony all of Game of Shadows came from.
Now nobody mentioned McCarthy stuff here, let’s move on, it’s comparing apples to oranges. Here’s my take. I do not claim to be a lawyer/legal expert, but my interpretation is this is basically the same as entrapment (which is illegal and will not stand up in a court of law). Sure, somebody under entrapment does end up committing the crime, such as theft. However, they were deliberately set up to commit the crime. My understanding is with some of the other athletes this does not necessarily apply as they were convicted of using illegal substances such as EPO and HGH, but with Bonds the evidence is that he used the cream and the clear. Neither of these were illegal. To know that they are legal and you cannot prosecute someone for taking them, and the only option is to lay a perjury trap – that’s the same concept as entrapment.
So there is my argument why lying under oath is ok. However, I also believe it’s a moot point because the prosecution did not get him to say anything other than he did not knowingly take steroids. Proving he lied about that is damn near impossible, whether it’s true or not. Bonds also has capable lawyers, while the prosecution does not. There is 0% chance he loses this case.
I have to also disagree with the whole notion of successfully putting the BALCO crew behind bars. A couple of athletes served about 6 months or so. The “mastermind” of the whole operation, Victor Conte, served less than those athletes. For all the big deal made about BALCO, and $60 million spent, the person in charge of it gets 4 months? I hardly call that successful.
by Missing Barry on Jan 30, 2009 10:04 PM PST up reply actions
Just to be clear.
the McCarthy reference from me was in regard to the mindset, not the actual events. The analogy was made to compare a group of government oficials that are infatuated with a particular issue of limited importance that is meant to distract from other more important issues.
"Just take the ball and throw it where you want to. Throw strikes. Home plate don't move."-Leroy "Satchel" Paige
My adopted son Matt Downs . Utility Infielder with a Bat !
he could have taken the Fifth Amendment and avoided perjuring himself
No, he could not, not with a grant of limited immunity.
Yep, I agree—I had forgotten that fact. So he had to answer or face contempt charges. Does that justify a lie under oath?
by NiceGuysFinishEtc on Jan 30, 2009 8:03 PM PST up reply actions
there have already been quite a few athletes prosecuted in this case .
Marion Jones, Tim Montgomery, Tammy Thompson.
I don’t think the feds have lost one yet in this case.
Fairley odd parent to Wendell
They'll lose this one
I don’t know about Tammy, but with Marion Jones and Tim Montgomery they also had the check fraud charges. While I normally don’t like it when a rich person buys his freedom, Barry Bonds has alot more money than the three you mentioned, and he’s hired himself some lawyers who are going to wipe the floor with these prosecutors. I don’t know the details of the other cases, but this Bonds’ case has been continually botched by the prosecution from the beginning. Considering what a witch hunt this has been from the beginning, I’m glad Barry has the money to buy his way to a fair trial.
Brian Sabean's dad- will make a few phone calls to help his son find a new job after next season
For 756 Balcobucks spot the hidden Rush reference in that last comment.
Tammy Thomas is obviously too intelligent to attempt check fraud like those lesser folk who hadn’t evolved into cycling.
This just in...Bobby Estalella can apply oral suction to a deceased pack animal's penile extremity.
by victor frankenstein on Jan 30, 2009 4:13 PM PST up reply actions
Conte also testified against the rest of them but refuses to implicate Bonds.
by Missing Barry on Jan 30, 2009 5:30 PM PST up reply actions
I love him.
hellroadintentions
The inspiration for my moniker.
This just in...Bobby Estalella can apply oral suction to a deceased pack animal's penile extremity.
by victor frankenstein on Jan 31, 2009 12:17 PM PST up reply actions
it was proven that they lied under oath about their drug use.
I believe that’s what will be proven here also.
Fairley odd parent to Wendell
Jones pled guilty. Montgomery was charged only with other crimes; he had admitted steroid use in his grand jury testimony in the original BALCO case. Thomas was convicted on several charges of perjury. Graham was convicted on one count of lying to investigators.
So, two jury trials so far, Thomas’ and Graham’s, both of which resulted in convictions on some but not all of the charges that were brought against them. Not really up to the feds’ usual standards, overall.
I just can’t help thinking that maybe our energies and priorities (as a country) should be focused in a different direction right now.
Not to mention the billable hours
But that requires a conscience , not always a lawyerly prerequisite.
This just in...Bobby Estalella can apply oral suction to a deceased pack animal's penile extremity.
by victor frankenstein on Jan 31, 2009 12:20 PM PST up reply actions
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