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CLEMENS VS. BONDS

  in light of recent legal developments ( seeming positive for bonds, and negative for clemens), is it not likely that in 5 years clemens will be the face of the steroid era ?

    clemens may also find it more difficult to get into the hall of fame. barry, although he had "diva" and personality issues, has a combination of stats and gold gloves that we've never seen before. roger was an outstanding pitcher, but i can not think of one mlb record he owns by himself. ( i believe he's tied with a few other for k's in one game.)

  finally, i believe the worst is still ahead for clemens. we have the dude on the stand, telling all which cheek of roger's he injected, and the needles to prove it.

   who gets into the hall first ?   i think barry....

This FanPost is reader-generated, and it does not necessarily reflect the views of McCovey Chronicles. If the author uses filler to achieve the minimum word requirement, a moderator may edit the FanPost for his or her own amusement.

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When the dust settles

Jose Canseco will be the face of the steroid era. Or he’ll be the WWE World Champion. It’s hard to say.

by StickRat on Jan 19, 2009 3:38 PM PST reply actions  

No way Triple H will let him be a legit main eventer.

New to McCovey Chronicles? Check out the McFAQs! McFAQ I & II
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by Natto on Jan 19, 2009 3:43 PM PST up reply actions  

Roger Clemens can be the new Stone Cold. Clemens is already a natural, detestable a-hole and has his weasel manager waiting in the wings.

He’d be Vince McMahon’s new BFF.

it's always noonan somewhere

by sectionop92 on Jan 19, 2009 3:57 PM PST up reply actions  

Natto.

I have to say that your new avatar is FREAKIN ME OUT.

The Basil Fawlty Moderating Strategy:
"We could run a nice blog here if we didn't have all these members getting in the way."

by WalrusMan on Jan 20, 2009 2:27 PM PST up reply actions  

Excellent.

New to McCovey Chronicles? Check out the McFAQs! McFAQ I & II
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by Natto on Jan 20, 2009 2:44 PM PST up reply actions  

+1

Especially after Jose starts flirtin with Steph.

by faust10 on Jan 20, 2009 6:32 PM PST up reply actions  

Bonds will always be the face of the steroid era to the media

He’s the perfect anti-hero.

When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realized God doesn’t work that way, so I stole one and prayed for forgiveness. - Emo Philips

Neglectful father of David Quinowski

by marcello on Jan 19, 2009 4:09 PM PST reply actions  

Anyone else getting the Roger Clemens Underage Affair ad in the top right corner?

because its cracking me up

Rafael Rodriguez: Your number 8 organizational prospect before stepping a foot on American soil and has "looked just super so far," according to Felipe Alou...according to Baggs.

by BrianBokake on Jan 19, 2009 4:10 PM PST reply actions  

yes !!

  i saw that ad right after i posted ! too funyy….

by giantdonkey on Jan 19, 2009 4:12 PM PST up reply actions  

Just saw it

Verdict: lol

"While conservatives tell you 'leave things alone and no one will lose,' and liberals tell you 'interfere a lot and no one will lose,' baseball says 'someone will lose.' Not only says it - but insists upon it! ... Democracy is lovely, but baseball's more mature." BVCE supports SF Dugout and Manny Burriss.

by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Jan 19, 2009 8:19 PM PST up reply actions  

There is this as well....
McNamee’s lawyer: Bush would pardon Clemens

Commence derogatory comments :-)

"Just take the ball and throw it where you want to. Throw strikes. Home plate don't move."-Leroy "Satchel" Paige

My adopted son Matt Downs . Utility Infielder with a Bat !

by nvsfg on Jan 19, 2009 4:47 PM PST reply actions  

Dangerous_Idiot is still prez for about 16 more hours...

I still fully expect him to:
Pardon Scooter Libby
Pardon Alberto Gonzalez & Harriet Myers & anyone else who offered counsel that war crimes are ok
Pardon dick cheney
Pardon Roger Clemens
Punish Canada for those geese that brought down the US Airways flight in the Hudson River
Invade Mexico.

I'm adopting a true Giant and an awe-inspring gamer: tk. "Atta babe."

by Mayor of 311 on Jan 19, 2009 5:20 PM PST up reply actions  

did you momentarily get this confused with DailyKos?

by FluLikeSymptoms on Jan 19, 2009 6:18 PM PST up reply actions  

Bush is a poopoo head!

There…happy?!?

Omar...I'm done with you. Hello Darren Ford! Come to papa.

by PacBellBoozer on Jan 19, 2009 6:39 PM PST up reply actions  

Someone has to take over the drug cartels.

"While conservatives tell you 'leave things alone and no one will lose,' and liberals tell you 'interfere a lot and no one will lose,' baseball says 'someone will lose.' Not only says it - but insists upon it! ... Democracy is lovely, but baseball's more mature." BVCE supports SF Dugout and Manny Burriss.

by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Jan 19, 2009 8:19 PM PST up reply actions  

Bonds is guilty in the court of public opinion

And that is going to hurt his hall chances. He will get in eventually. The veterans committee would put him in on the first vote they had if it took that long.

The hall of fame is a sham now, anyway. It used to be something special but after this year and all the BS surrounding it, it’s completely lost its luster. I hope he never gives a speech. They don’t deserve it.

by positiveuphemism on Jan 19, 2009 5:01 PM PST reply actions  

how is this year any more or less absurd than any other?

"he walked 18; new league record! Struck out 18, another new league record! He also hit the sportswriter, the PA announcer, the bull mascot twice..."

by i did my job on Jan 19, 2009 6:27 PM PST up reply actions  

Jim Rice plus the idiot in Arizona who got publicly lambasted by not voting for Rickey and writing about it.

by positiveuphemism on Jan 19, 2009 6:43 PM PST up reply actions  

False choice: They both deserve it.

The HOF is a joke: (a) Pete Rose isn’t in because of an intellectually lazy & incoherent conflation of the ideas of ‘ineligible for MLB’ with ‘ineligible for induction into a museum that isn’t owned by MLB and has nothing to do with baseball operations on any field.’ (I fully agree with Pete Rose’s lifetime ban from MLB and its affiliated minor league teams & operations; but even my cat sees that that can still be accomplished and let the man take his rightful place in a museum.) (b) Voters who think someone is perfectly qualified, but then won’t vote for him in his first year of eligibility because of some “message” or “meaning.” © The years of abuse by the Veterans Committee that has resulted in, just for one example, Phil Rizzutto’s enshrinement. [Interesting topic starter: who is the least deserving inductee? And are there any flat-out unqualified inductees? I’ll throw out the first pitch: Rizzutto doesn’t deserve it.]

But the undeniable fact is that both Bonds and Clemens deserve their spaces in the HOF. Their stats, the dizzying numbers of MVPs (Bonds) & Cy Youngs (Clemens), the levels of achievement in their era, the dominance, the game-changing factor they both brought in their appearances… if there is any worthwhile definition of a HOF, they should both go in at the first opportunity. (And Rose, too.)

And we have always understood that ballplayers are only validly compared within their own era (varying rules, varying heights of the pitchers mound, varying specifications of the equipment used, dead ball, live ball, etc.). Well, here is a case of a pitcher dominating in an era in which batters juiced, and of a batter who dominated in an era in which pitcher’s juiced. They kind of validate each other. (Somewhere, the Baron is working on a screenplay idea in which Clemens and Bonds … “validate” each other.)

I'm adopting a true Giant and an awe-inspring gamer: tk. "Atta babe."

by Mayor of 311 on Jan 19, 2009 5:13 PM PST reply actions   1 recs

Thank you Mayor, thank you.

I can haz homerunz!

by jbowl on Jan 19, 2009 5:30 PM PST up reply actions  

I basically agree with everything said here. Unfortunately, it makes too much sense to actually happen.

Less arm, more talk. Raisingcain is a GAMER.
Adopted Giant: Henry Sosa

by raisingcain on Jan 19, 2009 6:03 PM PST up reply actions  

Agreeance

Or agreement if you need a real word

The single greatest blight on baseball isn’t the steroids era. It’s that the all-time hits leader isn’t in the hall-of-fame.

Catcher are base running. Hitters are offense.
Only [hella] games left until the end of Zito's contract.

by thehavenot on Jan 19, 2009 7:15 PM PST up reply actions  

He’s also the all-time outs leader. Counting stats are tricky that way.

Fred Lewis can stand under my umbrella.
31 May 2007, 21:38 EST - the last time Matteh's career W-L wasn't below.500
We are at war with Los Angeles. We have always been at war with Los Angeles.

by S.F. Giangst on Jan 20, 2009 8:06 AM PST up reply actions  

So are you saying that he wasn't a hall-of-fame worthy player?

Catcher are base running. Hitters are offense.
Only [hella] games left until the end of Zito's contract.

by thehavenot on Jan 20, 2009 11:52 AM PST up reply actions  

cy young

  probably gave up more hits than anyone in history.

by giantdonkey on Jan 20, 2009 12:45 PM PST up reply actions  

baseball context

madonna’s been hit more times than biggio

by giantdonkey on Jan 20, 2009 9:30 PM PST up reply actions  

and

 madonna doesn’t lean over the plate as much

by giantdonkey on Jan 20, 2009 9:31 PM PST up reply actions  

but she’s very vulnerable to a backdoor slider

Fred Lewis can stand under my umbrella.
31 May 2007, 21:38 EST - the last time Matteh's career W-L wasn't below.500
We are at war with Los Angeles. We have always been at war with Los Angeles.

by S.F. Giangst on Jan 21, 2009 5:04 AM PST up reply actions  

Being the all-time leader in outs actually isn’t really a bad stat to have. It implies fairly strongly the idea of longevity (and not just that, but longevity in the sense of being a starting player for a long time… for instance, Julio Franco isn’t going to get the hits – or outs – record just by pinch hitting for the next x years), which itself implies fairly strongly the idea that you were good enough to last so long.

How one (that jerk) reads stats is just as important as the stats that one cites.

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on Jan 20, 2009 12:58 PM PST up reply actions  

Yes, you are correct.

I was just hoping to hear him/her say that Pete Rose was not a hall-of-fame caliber player.

Catcher are base running. Hitters are offense.
Only [hella] games left until the end of Zito's contract.

by thehavenot on Jan 20, 2009 3:23 PM PST up reply actions  

He bet on baseball while he was a player-manager. That earned a death penalty which wipes away whatever he accomplished prior to that. Peter Edward Rose skull-fucked baseball.
 
A day before he placed that first bet, he would have had my support for the HOF based on his performance as a player.

Fred Lewis can stand under my umbrella.
31 May 2007, 21:38 EST - the last time Matteh's career W-L wasn't below.500
We are at war with Los Angeles. We have always been at war with Los Angeles.

by S.F. Giangst on Jan 21, 2009 5:22 AM PST up reply actions  

This has nothing to do with whether he was a hall-of-fame worthy player. If you think he should be out of the hall of fame because he bet on baseball, this has nothing do with how many outs he made.

Now as to your actual reasons:

That earned a death penalty which wipes away whatever he accomplished prior to that.

I have never understood why what he did as a manager had any bearing whatsoever on what he did as a player. It makes no sense.

A day before he placed that first bet, he would have had my support for the HOF based on his performance as a player.

Then why the need to talk about how many outs he made?

Catcher are base running. Hitters are offense.
Only [hella] games left until the end of Zito's contract.

by thehavenot on Jan 21, 2009 10:51 AM PST up reply actions  

the number of outs

merely points out that he wasn’t that good. Of course, he’s HOF worthy anyway (Nolan Ryan is similarly overrated)

However, I am fine to have him out of the HOF while he is still alive. He can come out and admit what he did and maybe I’d consider letting him in. I would probably vote for him after his death.

His case is unlike Bonds and Clemens (both who go in first ballot for me) because his crime is so much more severe. About drug use (even assuming guilt here) you can reasonably say that “everyone was doing it” – or at least LOTS of people, and that baseball was not really interested in enforcing it. On the level of “consorting with gamblers” (like Mays was). However, betting on games you have control over is fundamentally damaging to the sport as fair conflict.

FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?

by zenbitz on Jan 21, 2009 5:49 PM PST up reply actions  

Yes, very tricky when you have no idea what matters. Superb, superb point.

I'm adopting a true Giant and an awe-inspring gamer: tk. "Atta babe."

by Mayor of 311 on Jan 20, 2009 9:18 PM PST up reply actions  

Outs don’t matter? Or am I reading this wrong?

..so allow me to present Tim Lincecum and Matt Cain as two sweet, sweet bottles of warming hooch.

by Cookyman on Jan 22, 2009 2:48 AM PST up reply actions  

They matter, but everybody makes outs. If you play a long time you make a lot of outs. I bet the all time outs leaders list is filled with a lot of good players.

Top 15:

1. Pete Rose# 10328 B
2. Hank Aaron+ 9136 R
3. Carl Yastrzemski+* 9126 L
4. Cal Ripken+ 8893 R
5. Eddie Murray+# 8570 B
6. Rickey Henderson+ 8510 R
7. Dave Winfield+ 8422 R
8. Robin Yount+ 8415 R
9. Brooks Robinson+ 8340 R
10. Craig Biggio 8273 R
11. Luis Aparicio+ 8110 R
12. Willie Mays+ 8056 R
13. Paul Molitor+ 8040 R
14. Rabbit Maranville+ 7887 R
15. Rafael Palmeiro* 7857 L

Wow, I rest my case.

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on Jan 22, 2009 7:10 AM PST up reply actions  

gee

if only someone could think of a stat that measured how OFTEN you made an out. I bet that would really be useful for comparing players. Something like outs/plate appearances…. or even (PA – OUT) / PA….

Naw, it would never catch on.

FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?

by zenbitz on Jan 22, 2009 9:42 AM PST up reply actions  

Oh great

I’ve woken the snark beast. Anyway, both of you see my comment below.

..so allow me to present Tim Lincecum and Matt Cain as two sweet, sweet bottles of warming hooch.

by Cookyman on Jan 22, 2009 12:21 PM PST up reply actions  

Rafael Palmeiro sez:

“If you play a long time you make a lot of everything!”

Who has the fun?
Is it always the man with the gun?
- The Stranglers

by victor frankenstein on Jan 22, 2009 6:48 PM PST up reply actions  

Kind of, yeah. Outs, taken alone, mean nothing.

Pete Rose Jr. made several thousand fewer outs than Pete Rose did. So Petey Jr is the better player?

My point was that just because something can be counted doesn’t make it a meaningful statistic in the absence of context or an understanding of what you’re looking at. HowTheyScored & Zenbitz make their excellent points below. HowTheyScored lists the top 15 outmakers, and they are all among the best ever to play the game. Zenbitz points out what should be obvious to you: outs are already incorporated in the offense statistics (OBP, OPS, BA, what have you).

I'm adopting a true Giant and an awe-inspring gamer: tk. "Atta babe."

by Mayor of 311 on Jan 22, 2009 9:58 AM PST up reply actions  

My point was that just because something can be counted doesn’t make it a meaningful statistic in the absence of context or an understanding of what you’re looking at.

Yeah, I think that was S.F.G’s point, or at least it was mine. Counting stats are tricky. . That Rose is the all time leader in outs just goes to show how tricky counting stats are, not that he’s a bad hitter. And really, you can’t use hits as a stat, and then say that outs don’t matter.

Zenbitz points out what should be obvious to you: outs are already incorporated in the offense statistics (OBP, OPS, BA, what have you).

Again, the exact same thing could be said of hits.

..so allow me to present Tim Lincecum and Matt Cain as two sweet, sweet bottles of warming hooch.

by Cookyman on Jan 22, 2009 12:20 PM PST up reply actions  

...

You’re right PETE FUCKING ROSE was a bum…

by boonitez on Jan 21, 2009 6:15 PM PST up reply actions  

If niether of them make it

All of the writers that voted against them need to be sterilized. The HOF shouldn’t involve personal bias. Both of those players, regardless of PED use, accomplished amazing feats that no other players, many of them PED users themselves, can hope to match. To not include the most feared hitter OF ALL TIME and one of the most dominant pitchers in baseball history would be absolutely silly.

Anywho, I’m gonna guess Bonds stays the face of the steroid era. I say this because most of the people that bitch about Bonds being a cheater only do so because they don’t like him as a person; steroids have nothing to do with it.

by boonitez on Jan 19, 2009 6:10 PM PST reply actions  

Neither one's getting in

Bonds won’t get in mostly because they hate his guts, and he made it easy for them with Balco, and Clemens ain’t getting in because if he did, every writer who voted for Clemens and not Bonds would be called a racist. They’ll keep Roger out to show that keeping Bonds out is not racially motivated. (although in alot of cases it will be). Red neck writer: “I’m not racist. I didn’t vote for Clemens, and he’s white!! I have principles!! The sanctity of the game. The children. Mom and apple pie!!”

Brian Sabean's dad- will make a few phone calls to help his son find a new job after next season

by rxmeister on Jan 19, 2009 6:35 PM PST reply actions  

They should both get in

The sports writers as much as anyone else helped turn a blind or semi-blind eye toward the steroid use and helped the baseball owners buildup their cash piles during the era. I find this total outrage/clean up the game bit to be one of the more hypocritical aspects of the steroids era that will always be glossed over because the sports media of America is anything but a watchdog group.

The baseball writers have elected cheaters into the Hall of Fame before and now that they want to split hairs, I find that to bring the whole character of the Hall into question if they want to open that Pandora’s Box. Just because they don’t like the Frankenstein’s they hyped for years doesn’t mean they can just absolve themselves from them and declare the high ground, when they had little of it to begin with.

it's always noonan somewhere

by sectionop92 on Jan 19, 2009 11:13 PM PST up reply actions  

Bonds and Clemens

They are like the Yin and Yang of the steroid era. They are the great two-headed God of steroids. Half black, half white, all jerk, all great.

The best pitcher and hitter of the era. Both fantastic into their early forties. One is the great American hero and one is the great American Anti-hero.

They should go in at the same time. And give a joint speech.

Catcher are base running. Hitters are offense.
Only [hella] games left until the end of Zito's contract.

by thehavenot on Jan 19, 2009 7:14 PM PST reply actions  

hopefully in their joint speech they speak simultaneously, but on their own topics, so their voices jumble into a mess no-one can understand. then we can listen to them without really listening to them.

Castillo got the DFA. Guestimate for Castillo DFA to come before the 2009 season = 2.

by kennv on Jan 19, 2009 7:56 PM PST up reply actions  

I’d settle for a BLB pirouette

Sergio Romo will gladly hand you a bench to sit on / GIANTSPACE™ / Adopted brother of the AnVil

by SoFa King Mike on Jan 19, 2009 10:46 PM PST up reply actions  

I'd settle for BLB pirouette GIF

I know you have one Sofa King…

Barry Zito: so-so command of the changeball

by jordanovich on Jan 20, 2009 12:20 AM PST up reply actions  

Only 'cause you asked nicely

Sergio Romo will gladly hand you a bench to sit on / GIANTSPACE™ / Adopted brother of the AnVil

by SoFa King Mike on Jan 20, 2009 1:53 PM PST up reply actions  

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