A little insider Giant info made public this morning by Fred Lewis..
by pittsburghian on Jan 15, 2009 9:25 AM PST
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PrintDuring my morning commute I turned off the CD and switch to KNBR to hear the tail end of Fred Lewis speaking about the potential for Manny Ramirez being signed. Apparently, he has already had discussions with Bobby Evans concerning this and has been told that in case they do sign another left fielder (who, eh?) that Freddy will still be in the lineup daily, likely at right field.
This is another piece in the puzzle of the outfield that perchance has been put in place. My guess is that either one of Winn or Rowand are assured of being traded. My guess, considering their interest in retaining both Freddy and Nate long term is that Rowand is the likeliest to be traded. A Manny signing is more of an all-in proposition at this point with the collection of Cy Young winners on board.
Going further, my _feeling_ is that the likeliest trading partner is the Yankees, moving Rowand to them as their CF, with Swisher in return for first base duty, along with perhaps some cash. Longer term, one can only presume that the outfield would be Manny, Lewis, and Nate from left to right, agreed?
MP3 of Fred's conversation is now up! -- Edited to add the interview
This FanPost is reader-generated, and it does not necessarily reflect the views of McCovey Chronicles. If the author uses filler to achieve the minimum word requirement, a moderator may edit the FanPost for his or her own amusement.
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Lewis- RF
Winn- CF
Sandoval- 3b
Ramirez- RF
Renteria- SS
Molina- C
Swisher- 1b
Frandsen/Burriss/Velez- 2b
Pitcher
Sounds good to me.
Psycho killer, qu'est-ce que c'est?
personally i would much prefer
Winn S
Edgar R
Lewis L
Manny R
Pablo S
Bengie R
Swisher S
Franny R
Idolizing Robb Nen since 2002...
by Smoke on the Water on Jan 15, 2009 9:38 AM PST up reply actions
other than the Manny part...
I like this batting order.
Just kidding. If Scott goes, I could live with having Manny for two (with a benchmark one year option maybe ) . If the Swisher part of the rumor is true, Pandamonium™ stays at 3B all season ? Who else rotates in ? Frandsen ?
"Just take the ball and throw it where you want to. Throw strikes. Home plate don't move."-Leroy "Satchel" Paige
My adopted son Matt Downs . Utility Infielder with a Bat !
Swisher for Rowand makes no sense for the Yankees. The reason that Swisher or Nady is on the market in the first place is because the Yankees have too many outfielders. What good would trading Swisher do if they acquire another outfielder with an even worse contract?? And let’s not forget that Rowand has a no trade clause. I would prefer to move Rowand, but he’s not going anywhere. Winn would be the one to go. One year left on his deal at a decent price.
Brian Sabean's dad- will make a few phone calls to help his son find a new job after next season
I dunno..
Do we want to split up Pablo and Bengie? That’d be like a double basepath clogging machine.
The Basil Fawlty Moderating Strategy:
"We could run a nice blog here if we didn't have all these members getting in the way."
While Not Fast, Pablo Unlike Bengie Is No Turtle or Snail. Sadoval Is Actually Close To Average Speed Wise.
by giantsrainman on Jan 15, 2009 1:09 PM PST up reply actions
I'm aware Pablo is much faster than Bengie..
But still do you want your two slowest players to bat next to eachother?
The Basil Fawlty Moderating Strategy:
"We could run a nice blog here if we didn't have all these members getting in the way."
Who Would You Suggest We Surround With Them? Will Not His Speed Be Wasted Then?
I like Smoke’s lineup. Speed 1-3 and more speed 7-8 with power and below average speed in the middle 4-6.
by giantsrainman on Jan 15, 2009 4:06 PM PST up reply actions
Seriously, I admire you guys for the way you worry about down the road, and of course the Giants need to do this as well. However, as a fan I just want to sit myself in front of the tube on Opening Day and see the best possible team we can see for 2009, and that would mean Manny in left field. Why am I worried about 2012?? Why should any fan be??
Brian Sabean's dad- will make a few phone calls to help his son find a new job after next season
So you would have been in favor of signing Tex for $400M over 10 years?
..so allow me to present Tim Lincecum and Matt Cain as two sweet, sweet bottles of warming hooch.
not a penny over 395!!
I think you’re taking my comment to a bit of an extreme, aren’t you?? I’m just saying that I’m assuming the Giants’ will not spend any money they can’t afford to spend. I’m going to assume that the multi millionaires that own the Giants’ aren’t going to spend themselves into bankruptcy. If they spend a few more million or an extra year or two on a contract then fans think they can afford to, they probably have the money. Everyone fretted about the money the Giants’ would have after the Zito contract, yet here they are spending 9 million per year on Renteria, 8 million on Unit, and are discussing a 20 million per year player. The Zito contract was a mistake because Zito is no longer a good pitcher, but it certainly hasn’t financially broken the Giants.
Brian Sabean's dad- will make a few phone calls to help his son find a new job after next season
But there is no doubt that Zito improved our team last year. He was still worth a few wins above replacement. So by your logic, we should be grateful for the contract, since it helped us in the short term, and shouldn’t worry about 2009 and beyond.
..so allow me to present Tim Lincecum and Matt Cain as two sweet, sweet bottles of warming hooch.
I don't think that is what he was saying
I don’t think Mark was saying that the Zito contract was a good one — only that the Giants’ increased willingness to spend has made it a large hinderance but not a brick wall.
Not what I'm saying
Rex said that
as a fan I just want to sit myself in front of the tube on Opening Day and see the best possible team we can see for 2009, and that would mean Manny in left field. Why am I worried about 2012?? Why should any fan be??
And
I’m just saying that I’m assuming the Giants’ will not spend any money they can’t afford to spend. I’m going to assume that the multi millionaires that own the Giants’ aren’t going to spend themselves into bankruptcy. If they spend a few more million or an extra year or two on a contract then fans think they can afford to, they probably have the money.
In other words, he doesn’t worry about the long term as long as the short term is OK, and he trusts the Giants FO not to screw themselves with long term contracts. By that logic, the Zito signing was a decent one.
..so allow me to present Tim Lincecum and Matt Cain as two sweet, sweet bottles of warming hooch.
No, Rex did not say that
I don’t see any way you can take my comments and twist them around so that I’m saying that the Zito contract was a good one. I said that it hasn’t stopped them from signing free agents, and spending quite a bit in the process at that, but it’s still a horrible contract. Good CAN come from it though, because perhaps the Giants’ have finally learned their lesson, as you can see from all the one year and two year contracts they are dealing out this offseason. Not only that, but the Zito contract proved that the Giants’ can and will compete with the big market teams for talent, if they deem them necessary to the team’s success. The only problem here was that they won the battle for the wrong player.
Brian Sabean's dad- will make a few phone calls to help his son find a new job after next season
Again
I think you’re missing my point. You were saying that you trust the Giants to handle long term contracts, and that you don’t worry about the long term consequences of those contracts. I was just giving Zito as an example for a contract that was reasonable-ish in the short term, but is terrible because of its long term consequences.
..so allow me to present Tim Lincecum and Matt Cain as two sweet, sweet bottles of warming hooch.
I “miss your point” because your example of Zito is not the kind of example I’m talking about. How is the Zito contract reasonable in the short term when he’s stunk right from the beginning?? If he came in here and had a couple of good seasons before stinking it up your point would be a good one, but you simply cannot make a case that his contract has been reasonable so far, and will only be bad 2-3 years from now.
Brian Sabean's dad- will make a few phone calls to help his son find a new job after next season
In his first year
He gave us 197 IP of 4.44 ERA (98 ERA+), and we paid him $10M. That’s pretty reasonable. The signing helped us in the year followed it. Sure, it was already a bad (though probably not terrible) contract the next year, and it’s going to be terrible in three, but in the extreme short term, it was a fine deal.
..so allow me to present Tim Lincecum and Matt Cain as two sweet, sweet bottles of warming hooch.
I sure hope those numbers don’t equal “reasonable” in any kind of reality I’m forced to participate in. Mark is right.
Sergio Romo: striking out professional hitters since 2005.
As he usually is
Mark was right, as he usually is.
Even at $10 million, a 98 ERA+ isn’t very good — unless you are saying that $10 million for a slightly-below-average pitcher is a fair deal. And while the Giants may have paid “only” $10 million to Barry Zito in 2007, his seven-year deal averaged $18 million per season
Or about $5000 per pitch. Whichever way you want to look at it.
I can see Barry’s dilemma now. Do I really want to make $5000 in the next five seconds, or should I just not throw this pitch?
Even at $10 million, a 98 ERA+ isn’t very good — unless you are saying that $10 million for a slightly-below-average pitcher is a fair deal.
First of all, a 98 ERA+ is slightly above average for a starting pitcher. Second of all, 200 IP of league average ERA is a valuable thing to have. Using a WAR calculator, Zito was worth 2.3 wins above replacement in 2007 – or about $10.5M. It might not be a great deal, but it would be hard for me to see how it’s an unreasonable one.
And while the Giants may have paid "only" $10 million to Barry Zito in 2007, his seven-year deal averaged $18 million per season
Or about $5000 per pitch. Whichever way you want to look at it.
I have no idea what you’re trying to say. My point is that the Zito deal is an example for a deal the Giants signed, and is terrible because of its long-term consequences. By showing how much Barry is going to make, you’re only proving my point.
..so allow me to present Tim Lincecum and Matt Cain as two sweet, sweet bottles of warming hooch.
OK
It seems we are indeed coming to the same conclusion. I think the point that most bothered me is when you quoted Barry’s salary at $10 million. That was technically correct for that one season, but it ignored spreading out Barry’s signing bonus and that his contract averages $18 million per season, with the Giants backloading it for salary management and perhaps present value considerations.
I believe Brian Sabean is back on track, but I can’t believe what fools the Giants were for signing Barry when any sabermetician who was even half-baked as well as some scouts would have told — and probably did — Peter Magowan, who likely made the signing decision, that he was making a big mistake.
Between Zito and Dave Roberts, two winters ago the Giants paid Mark Teixeiera or Manny
Ramirez money for players who didn’t come close to justifying their pay. The majority of us knew they were likely making big mistakes, but for some reason they didn’t consult us. :)
some consensus?
So we all agree that the Zito signing was insanity? (Why do I seem to remember being among the minority who were opposed to the concept that winter before he was signed?) But we disagree on whether or not we got $10million worth of pitching from Mr. Zito last year?
I’d say we got, perhaps, $4million worth last year from Barry. Maybe $5m, depending on your view of inflation. I’d rather take a flier on a Corriea-type pitcher in that spot and be flexible enough, budget-wise, to sign a Teixeira-type hitter.
Sergio Romo: striking out professional hitters since 2005.
Off the Mark
Mark (Rxmeister) is hardly ever wrong. In fact, if you have a baseball problem that ails you, Mark can give you the right prescription.
But probably the only mistake he has made in his life came when on another board he tried to defend the signing of Barry Zito. He actually made about as good an argument as could be made, but anyone looking at Fan Graphs could see that such arguments were on a very slippery slope.
Here it comes - idiot math!
Barry was 10 wins 17 losses…woof.
if I cut that in half he was – if I round down – 5 and 8.
Yeah , that’s nicer.
Who has the fun?
Is it always the man with the gun?
- The Stranglers
by victor frankenstein on Jan 16, 2009 5:40 PM PST up reply actions
…then, Cain IZ SMARTZ
Giant Dirtbags: Brian Anderson, Todd Jennings, Steve Hammond, John Bowker
Don't F with the Affeldt
by Giant among Angels on Jan 17, 2009 2:05 PM PST up reply actions
Manny and non-Manny rosters
We know that the Giants usually stick to 12 man positional rosters.
With Manny, we are looking at an outfield of Lewis, Nate, Rowand and Winn w/ Roberts being DFAd if one of the above are not traded. If Manny isn’t there, you probably don’t have the DFA here or you keep that 3rd catcher in the Majors. Otherwise, the other slots I think go to Guzman (surprise ST 3rd base choice), Edgar, Frandsen w/ Burriss as the sub (or vice versa), and Pablo at first (Ishikawa as sub). Bengie at catcher with Pablo available there. Frandsen is the backup 3rd baseman. Burriss is the backup SS.
That’s 5 outfielders, 7 infielders. 12. Considering this, a lineup with Manny (and no trade otherwise) has:
Winn S
Edgar R
Lewis L
Manny R
Bengie R
Pablo S
Guzman®
Franny R / Burriss S
(Rowand is intermixed with Winn/Lewis)
w/o Manny, you sadly see
Winn S
Edgar R
Pablo S
Bengie R
Lewis L
Rowand S
Guzman®
Franny R / Burriss S
Which ain’t bad either on second thought.
by pittsburghian on Jan 15, 2009 8:12 PM PST up reply actions
How come you have Pablo in the number 3 slot without Manny, but with Manny in the lineup you have Pablo batting 6th? I like Lewis batting 5th either way. With an improved lineup I think Freddy could pick up a lot of RBIs in the middle of the order with that line drive swing of his
Wall-E for Best Picture 2008
by Useful_Idiot on Jan 15, 2009 8:42 PM PST up reply actions
It was said earlier by Bochy that Lewis bats 5th
And in Lewis’ interview, indicated that he’d bat third if Manny came to the team. I moved Pablo into the old before-Bengie slot as before when Lewis is 5th.
by pittsburghian on Jan 15, 2009 8:47 PM PST up reply actions
How Do You See Guzman Beating Out Ishikawa?
In both AA and AAA last year Ishikawa had the better year and he played both more and more successfully in AAA then Guzman did? Guzman is going to have to shown something in AAA Fresno (not the VWL) before anyone actually responsible for making these decisions moves him ahead of Ishikawa.
Put Ishikawa back in the non Manny lineup and you have the lineup Bochy has discussed. The one change I would like to see in this lineup is to swap Lewis and Sandoval as Lewis’ speed is wasted hitting after Bengie. Not so much with Sandoval.
If we sign Manny I do not see us trading either Winn or Rowand but Roberts instead putting Lewis on the bench. The lineup I would then expect from Bochy would be Winn-S, Renteria-R, Sandoval-S, Ramirez-R, Molina-R, Rowand-R, Ishikawa-L, Frandsen-R.
In addition the Giants go almost exclusively with 13 position players and 12 pitchers not the other way around. I can only think of a handful of times for just a few games that they have gone with only 12 positon players and 13 pitchers. In the Non Manny Team the 5 man bench I would expect would be Holm-C, Phelps-1B, Velez-IF, Roberts-OF, Schierholtz-OF, with Burriss playing SS at Fresno. In the Manny team the 5 man bench I would expect would be Holm-C, Phelps-1B, Velez-IF, Lewis-OF, Schierholtz-OF, with Roberts traded and again Burriss playing SS at Fresno.
by giantsrainman on Jan 15, 2009 9:27 PM PST up reply actions
For the most part, Giants have hewed to youth since Bonds left
They mainly only acquired players who they thought were better than the player/prospect that they had who either was a question mark or just not that good.
Benching Lewis to play Rowand/Winn in the outfield would not fit that M.O. as Lewis was good in 2008, just not as good as Manny. In addition, sitting him AND Schierholtz on the bench would be a huge waste of talent for the season (though perhaps good for the World Series, should they be extremely lucky enough to make), as they both could be starters on a rebuilding team in transition, which the Giants are.
I think a signing of Manny would inevitably be followed by the Giants trading off Rowand or Winn, to save salary for 2009, with Winn more likely because he would be easier to trade with his one year contract and good stats, offensively and defensively. The Giants are already above where they thought they would be and signing Manny would only push them way beyond that. When the Giants were in a similar situation like that before, they traded off players later to bring the salary outlay back in line with previous budgeted target.
Adoptive parental unit of Kevin " 2007's Most Spectacular Pitcher" Pucetas.
"I'm a Giant now... I like watching the ball get up there" - Wendell Fairley
"I'm really proud to be on this team." - Nate Schierholtz
"Woo hoo" - Tim "The Kid" Lincecum
by obsessivegiantscompulsive on Jan 19, 2009 4:36 PM PST up reply actions
25-Man Roster Composition
Thought SF carried 13 position players and a pitching staff of 12. Five starters and seven in the pen.
I bet this is how they go, except for a couple trips to Colorado, Philly and Cincy where they might bring up an extra pitcher. They need to have a second true catcher (meaning that Sandoval isn’t the primary back-up) on the roster because A) it’s dumb to have your only back-up catcher somewhere else in the starting line-up and B) you wouldn’t be able to pinch-run for Bengie (this is actually important) if Pablo needs a night off or taken out of the game. Six IFs, five OFs, and two Cs.
it’s dumb to have your only back-up catcher somewhere else in the starting line-up
I need help understanding why this is so. The only reason I can think of is the risk of already having subbed the back-up catcher (Sandoval) out of the game. Perhaps you’d want to take him out of the game for defense, but since he switch hits, I don’t see the Giants pinch hitting for Pablo much.
As long as they have a back-up 3rd baseman (Frandsen? Jesus?), I don’t see why Pablo couldn’t be the back-up catcher. You just can’t rest both guys on the same day.
My adopted Giant: "Raptor Jesus" Guzman
I would feel very comfortable having Winn in center rather than Rowand. This was be a wicked good scenario, methinks
Wall-E for Best Picture 2008
by Useful_Idiot on Jan 15, 2009 10:49 AM PST up reply actions
Actually, he was told he'd move to 3rd in the order if they signed Manny
by pittsburghian on Jan 15, 2009 10:29 AM PST up reply actions
Don't Count On It.
He was told not to worry that they would get him regular playing time. The Giants view signing Manny as a longshot and they are not going to let any of their players start to worry about how it might effect them when it likely will not happen. They will deal with informing Lewis about his new lessor role only if he is actually going to have a lessor role. They are not going to deal with it now when they do not have to.
by giantsrainman on Jan 15, 2009 9:32 PM PST up reply actions
If we could trade Rowand for Swisher, why not just skip Manny and do that?
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realized God doesn’t work that way, so I stole one and prayed for forgiveness. - Emo Philips
Neglectful father of David Quinowski
because it doesn't improve the lineup?
STEVE HOLM! refuses to be the odd man out.
by UnleashTheGore on Jan 15, 2009 9:53 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
False
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realized God doesn’t work that way, so I stole one and prayed for forgiveness. - Emo Philips
Neglectful father of David Quinowski
Mainly because this would allow Bochy to insert Nate into the everyday starting lineup, not to mention the probably upgrade at 1b with Swisher
Wall-E for Best Picture 2008
by Useful_Idiot on Jan 15, 2009 10:51 AM PST up reply actions
are you joking?
Rafael Rodriguez: Your number 8 organizational prospect before stepping a foot on American soil and has "looked just super so far," according to Felipe Alou...according to Baggs.
by BrianBokake on Jan 15, 2009 12:27 PM PST up reply actions
It is most likely Winn and not Rowand. I really doubt Sabean trading Rowand right after getting him, and i honestly believe Rowand is better than what last year showed. Winn did as he always does and I could see him going to the Yanks for Swisher (and maybe something else).
Manny LF
Rowand CF
Lewis RF
Schierholtz
Roberts
Not bad at all, hopefully Rowand can cover up Manny’s glove. or
Lewis LF
Rowand CF
Schierholtz RF
Roberts
Horwitz?
I’m really happy wih either lineup as long as Manny comes on for 2 years. If Sabes is willing to trade Rowand and his fat contract for Swish or something, please pull the trigger!
Somewhat related.. Richie may go to the Cubs / Scott Borass speaks
MLBtraderumors also spoke of the Cubs interest there. KNBR also had Scott Borass making his marketing dollar pitch on the air last night. If you put all this together and you can get some cash for the Swisher trade, you definitely have the recipe for getting the Giants to pull the trigger on Manny at the required 3 years they want.
Think about it. If they solve 1B with an extra CF, Rowand is as good as gone, and that extra longer term money takes away their concerns about a “longer” term contract with Manny, based on whatever gulf currently exists. I’m more of the thought now that a decent deal for Manny for both sides may keep Manny happy enough to get the expect production from him for 2+ years, and that would well be worth a 3 year deal on the balance.
Rowand is as good as gone
The more I think about it, the more I think Rowand is immovable. If he were a free agent, he wouldn’t get close to the 4/$48M remaining on his contract. Maybe 3/$24M, though that’s just a guess. The only way Rowand gets moved is for another bad contract. If that bad contract fills a need, say Paul Konerko, then maybe it’s a good idea. But that’s not going to happen. The offers would be Luis Castillo and a rhesus monkey, in which case we should just keep Rowand.
by Grant Brisbee on Jan 15, 2009 10:15 AM PST up reply actions
Not only that
but you do kinda have to think ahead to 2010, when our OFs would be:
Manny
Lewis
Shierholtz
There no CF in there. This is the same Sabean still who signed Rowand to play CF when he had Winn and Roberts … so methinks that he is not going to go into 2010 (or even 2009) without a CENTER FIELDER.
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
Why not just resign Winn for a year? I wouldn’t mind that
Wall-E for Best Picture 2008
by Useful_Idiot on Jan 15, 2009 10:56 AM PST up reply actions
I doubt he’d sign a one year deal. More teams are starting to assess and value defense correctly, so he’s likely going to have a few offers at the end of the season.
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realized God doesn’t work that way, so I stole one and prayed for forgiveness. - Emo Philips
Neglectful father of David Quinowski
I agree
I agree with you here, and if the Giants could somehow trade Aaron Rowand by eating some of his contract (something that in the past they have shown a huge reluctance to do) they would then be secure in offering Randy Winn arbitration after this season, ensuring either that they would get him for one more year or that they would get compensation if another team signed him.
Say hello to your 2010 starting CF...
…Clay Timpner!
No? Antoan Richardson? Mike McBryde?
Okay, I got nothing.
Adoptive father to the All-Father. Does that make me the All-Grandfather?
no, what we have is
an (approximately) league average CF signed for more than he’s worth. Give that up for nothing in return, then we have nothing. Then we’ll have to give up something ELSE just to get something marginally better than what we already have.
Doesn’t seem like a particularly vexing problem. You could probably extend Winn right now for less than the remaining cost of Rowand’s contract. You could try Fred Lewis in center. You could take Gary Matthews Jr off the Angels’ hands. You could put together a platoon of AAAA guys. Whatever.
If you get a chance to dump a terribly overpaid player, you don’t hand onto him just because you’re not certain who you’re going to find to take his place the year after next.
Why would you worry about centerfield in 2010?? Even if there isn’t one on the roster, there’s 175 free agents every offseason. One of them will be able to play centerfield.
Brian Sabean's dad- will make a few phone calls to help his son find a new job after next season
That’s some sound logic right there.
..so allow me to present Tim Lincecum and Matt Cain as two sweet, sweet bottles of warming hooch.
For this logic to be sound it presumes The Decider of Center Field Talent is both accurate and competent.
/ looks wistfully down the bench at Mr. Roberts & Rowand.
Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!
Here comes Captain Obvious wearing his Atomic Wedgie!
by daveinexile on Jan 19, 2009 11:01 AM PST up reply actions
Or Ralph Barbieri?
We don't really have that much pitching depth. We don't really have that much pitching depth. FOR GOD SAKE, VERUCA, DON'T GO FAKE TRADING JONATHAN SANCHEZ. We don't really have that much pitching depth
fine, keep whining
who’s going to play second base in 2030??
Brian Sabean's dad- will make a few phone calls to help his son find a new job after next season
Your'e right
We should trade Villalona, Bumgarner, Posey, and Alderson for Dan Uggla. I mean, they’re not going to be ready before 2010 – who knows what’s going to happen by then?? We need dingerz!
..so allow me to present Tim Lincecum and Matt Cain as two sweet, sweet bottles of warming hooch.
Good one, you really got me.
C’mon. I want the team to be managed in a way that keeps them good for the reasonable future.
We don't really have that much pitching depth. We don't really have that much pitching depth. FOR GOD SAKE, VERUCA, DON'T GO FAKE TRADING JONATHAN SANCHEZ. We don't really have that much pitching depth
what evidence have you had this offseason that this team will be managed in any other way but responsibly?? I haven’t seen any move from the Giants that sabotages the future, and I rarely see a post from even a fan who wants us to trade kids like Posey, Bumgarner and Villalona. Signing free agents to short term deals is the quick fix way to go that doesn’t mortgage the future, and that’s what the team is doing. With regards to Manny, even a 3 year deal means he’ll be long gone by the time the kids are seeking the big bucks. This year the Giants’ owners would take a hit with the payroll, but next year his salary will be easily managed with Winn, Molina, Johnson and Roberts coming off of the books. The Giants’ shouldn’t have to replace any of those guys with more free agents with players like Nate, Posey, Sandoval, Bumgarner, and Alderson around.
Brian Sabean's dad- will make a few phone calls to help his son find a new job after next season
what evidence have you had this offseason that this team will be managed in any other way but responsibly??
I’m actually reasonably sure that they will be managed responsibly. I hope that Sabean’s found the true religion when it comes to having a long term plan. But I was responding to your “who cares about 2010?” comment. I care a lot about 2010 because even though I really like what the Giants have done this off-season, I still see .500 team. Manny is really the only FA that can change that, but he’s no sure thing to come here. So, as we stand I still see 2010 as the main thing to think about in 2009.
I take it from your response that you didn’t. really mean that, though. In fact, it looks like we have zero disagreement when it comes to assessing where the Giants are and this off-season has gone.
I don’t agree that every fan takes the long view. Ralph Barbieri has openly said that he doesn’t care about anything beyond this season and that the Giants should ignore the future and give Manny whatever he wants, and I know there are plenty of people who feel the same. I think that you, me and Brian Sabean would all agree that Ralph is an idiot but he speaks for a lot of fans.
this is the longest comment I’ve ever, or probably will ever make.
We don't really have that much pitching depth. We don't really have that much pitching depth. FOR GOD SAKE, VERUCA, DON'T GO FAKE TRADING JONATHAN SANCHEZ. We don't really have that much pitching depth
I, for one, think that if you don’t have a 5-year plan, you don’t have a plan. And those who fail to plan…
Sergio Romo: striking out professional hitters since 2005.
Let's take a look
Let’s take a look at the Giants’ five-year plan, the implementation of which actually began about two and a half years ago with the drafting of Tim Lincecum.
The initial plan was to rebuild from within, starting with drafting and development. Thus far the Giants have executed this plan quite well.
The next step has been to add some veterans on a short-term basis in order to help the team become more competitive in the short term while not interfering with their long-term plan to rebuild from within. The Giants are off to a good start there, although the plan would REALLY be dynamite if they could make another big move or two (such as signing Manny Ramirez and packaging Randy Winn with a couple of not-too-damaging prospects for Adrian Beltre).
The plan will continue with some potentially very good players arriving somewhat as follows (and I’m talking more about contribution dates than arrival dates):
2009 — In addition to the above, Mark and Mordy resume their annual trips to AT&T park. If their plane isn’t forced to land in the Hudson River, the Giants might even make the playoffs. If their plane is forced to land in the river but their pilot is from Danville, the Giants STILL might make the playoffs.
2010 — Buster Posey, Tim Alderson, #6 overall draft pick in 2009 if he is a college player.
Definitely make playoffs.
2011 — Madison Bumgarner, Conor Gillaspie, Henry Sosa. Win at least one round in the playoffs.
2012 — Angel Villalona, Nick Noonan. Make the World Series.
2013 — Rafael Rodriguez, #6 overall draft pick in 2009 if he is a high school player. Win World Series. Hold ticker tape parade.
2014 — The Giants’ dynasty has begun and continues it competition with the Yankees’ dynasty.
2020 — A new decade begins with the Giants’ being chosen the team of the decade of the 2010’s.
2032 — Mordy’s son is elected President of the United States.
2040 — Mordy finally admits he was really far more satisfied with the Giants all along than he was willing to admit. His daughter is elected President of the United States.
2050 — Mordy is ecstatic as the Giants are named the team of the first half of the 21st century. He becomes a great grandfather and says he is now ready to go at any time. But when the Grim Reaper arrives, Mordy sternly tells him that he meant only that he was ready to go to the new ballpark the Giants just built, not to wherever the Grim Reaper had in mind.
2060 — The Grim Reaper says he won’t wait this time, and Mordy is secretly buried under the pitching mound at the new Giants stadium. In lieu of donations, his family requests he be sent a 24-foot high pile of orange and black flowers.
2070 — Tim Lincecum says he no longer can get batters out with his knuckle ball and retires, going out while still on top and still not having reached his nineties.
2075 — Lincecum is inducted into the Hall of Fame in the newly established Freak wing and announces that now that he is enshrined, it is time for a comeback.
2080 — Lincecum wins his 1000th game and retires for good. He says he has enjoyed pitching with his two sons, his four grandchildren, and his six great grandkids, but he feels the Giants can now get by with only a 12-man pitching staff, returning to the old six-man rotation popularized after the inauguration of Mordy’s son.
Mordy’s great, great grandson becomes the Giants’ first-round draft pick and vows to outdo Lincecum on the mound. He doesn’t specify WHICH Lincecum he plans to outdo, realizing he needs to keep his political options open. Mordy’s great, great grandson features a 120 mph fastball that peaks in the mid 120’s. His only secondary delivery is a new pitch, the wiffle ball. He doesn’t develop his third delivery, the political pitch, until late in his career, preparing it for use after he retires.
2100 — In honor of the new turn of the century, The McCovey Chronicles are renamed The Mordy Chronicles. No one posting telepathically still remembers where the McCovey name came from, anyway. Someone mentions he believes it came from that cove in San Franciso which was filled in half a century ago so the new ballpark could be built.
by sharksrog on Jan 18, 2009 6:51 PM PST up reply actions 7 recs
This might be my favorite post of all time
Wall-E for Best Picture 2008
by Useful_Idiot on Jan 19, 2009 12:23 PM PST up reply actions
Thanks!
Thanks very much, guys. I had a blast writing it.
Mark and Mordy used to come out here every year to watch the Giants — back when they were good. I think we should woo them back out by offering another McCovey Chronicles event at McCovey’s Restaurant.
I have a feeling that no one meeting Mark and Mordy would be disappointed. Plus, after Mordy’s kids have been elected President, I don’t think the Secret Service will allow us to meet him.
I rec’ed and I dont even know who Mordy is.
They say some players get out of bed hitting; Pablo Sandoval doesn't wait that long
Mordecai
Mordy is Mark’s (Rxmeister’s) very good friend who was nice enough to send me a picture of his lovely family a way back.
Mordy occasionally posts here under the moniker of holiday. I hope he gets to see the post for himself. Perhaps it will bring him out of hibernation.
There is NO one I enjoy jousting with more than Mordy!
That was completely awesome.
Good work!
by walkoff baltimore chop on Jan 19, 2009 7:07 PM PST up reply actions
Thanks so much
Thank you so very much. I really appreciate it.
I can’t wait for Mark and Mordy to weigh in. By the way, I said that Mordy posts under the screen name “Holiday.” That is true on another board, but here I think he posts as “Mordy from Monsey.”
Both Mark and Mordy are GREAT Giants fans from back in New York. And until recently when the Giants became a little discouraging, they really DID come out each summer to watch their favorite team.
Mark once even arrranged his Florida vacation while the Giants had a four-game series there. I’m waiting for those scouting reports when he visits his vacation home in the Dominican Republic!
Great stuff
But it better all come true….
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
Your 2009 Opening Day starter at second base*: Eugenio Velez
*For the Fresno Grizzlies
What Makes You Think The Trade Partner Will Take All $48M?
If they only take say $32M what would be the point of the trade then? Aaron Rowand is actually worth $32M for 4 years.
by giantsrainman on Jan 15, 2009 2:28 PM PST up reply actions
You got to think entire roster. Let’s say they do not take the entire total but the $32M you mention that still is saving a lot of money. SF then could play Lewis or Schierholtz at minimum price and use the other monies to extend any players, take on new salary, sign FA or player development.
and where, pray tell, do we replace rowand’s production? league average or better CFs don’t grow on trees (and Fred Lewis isn’t one).
So let’s say your deal goes through, we get 32m/4yrs = 8m/yr off the books. Our 4th OF is downgraded from Schierholtz to Roberts, our CF position is a HUGE ? after this year, and we haven’t added anything to the team. As GRM said, a league avg CF is worth at least 8m/yr, so we’re gonna use all that money to replace production we already have. So in essence, all we’re doing is hurting ourselves this year for the ability to give another team a discount on Rowand’s contract. It’s moronic.
Fred Lewis..
I guess isn’t one because of defense? The average CF hit .267/.334/.426 last year where he hit .282/.351/.440. That’s about what the average RF hit too, .271/.344/.444. His defense would probably leave something to be desired in CF, but perhaps he has just about the same amount of value (compared to average at the position) in center and in left. Above average defense in left, below average production. Below average defense in center, above average production.
The Basil Fawlty Moderating Strategy:
"We could run a nice blog here if we didn't have all these members getting in the way."
Well,
for one, I expect his offense to fall off a little (not a ton, probably to somewhere between the average RF/CF #s), and as was pointed out previously, the average LF is not very good defensively, so I think he’d be slightly above avg offensively in CF, but well below average defensively. I’m not willing to write off Rowand’s anti-career year defensively, just like I’m not prepared to expect another career defensive year from Winn
I agree. Sabean didn’t intend for Rowand to be a short term fix, and he doesn’t tend to give up on guys until they REALLY tank (see Alfonzo, Edgardo). Winn is the guys smart teams would ask after, and the guy who doesn’t have the prohibitive contract. Even if Sabean wanted to trade Rowand, no team is going to offer something good for him when Winn could be had with little commitment and a much smaller salary.
I'm as tall as Mel - why can't I hit 500 home runs?
also
it is not unreasonable that Rowand has a bounce-back year – he is more than a little streaky. That would push his trade value up (better numbers, fewer years remaining)… it’s just not a good time to trade him (since Littlefield was fired).
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
Would take a fungo bat or a bag of balls for Aaron Rowand in trade. It would free up cash and a 4 year oobligation. What I would like to see Sabean do is go out and find a real CF. One who is a defensive whiz , can get on base and run.
you know they don’t just give guys like that away right?
by FluLikeSymptoms on Jan 15, 2009 12:44 PM PST up reply actions
Si
With the solid pitching staff a defensive whiz CF would be great. Since there are no inhouse prospects to fill this role SF would need to go outside to find a quality CF. Maybe the Angels will trade the seldom used Reggie Willits or the Cubs Felix Pie. Who doesn’t like pie? Was thinking a Raj Davis type – but one who can actually hit and get on base. There are others around that SF could inquire on.
Oh, you mean
a good defensive CF with a good Avg and OBP and speed.
Those totally grow on trees. We could probably get one for, like, Yabu, they’re so common.
yeah, I think that’s why we can’t even name a name of a player who fits that description. Who’s a Raj Davis type sitting out there on the trade or FA market that can hit and get on base??
Brian Sabean's dad- will make a few phone calls to help his son find a new job after next season
Dav Rajis?
Adoptive father to the All-Father. Does that make me the All-Grandfather?
by EliminateMe on Jan 16, 2009 12:46 PM PST up reply actions
you will not get a bag of balls
It will COST you millions to trade Rowand.
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
His numbers last year were like a lot of other years he’s had
Rafael Rodriguez: Your number 8 organizational prospect before stepping a foot on American soil and has "looked just super so far," according to Felipe Alou...according to Baggs.
by BrianBokake on Jan 15, 2009 12:29 PM PST up reply actions
except
his OPS+ was 10 points below his career average, his wOBA was 20 points below his career average, and most defensive metrics had it as one of the worst years in his career.
Yes OPS+ does.
It uses the park adjusted league average OBP and SLG.
From a quick overview it doesn’t look like wOBA is park adjusted.
The Basil Fawlty Moderating Strategy:
"We could run a nice blog here if we didn't have all these members getting in the way."
Yeah, you’re right.
Here’s what I mean, though. Rowand’s wOBA+, which like OPS+ is adjusted for park and league effects, from 2003-07 went like this:
101
113
97
101
116
Median is 101, weighted mean is 106 or so.
And in 2008, he was at 102. His year fits in perfectly, especially when you consider that a player’s early 30s are generally a step down from his late 20s.
Sadly
Sadly you’re pretty much right on the money here, Evan.
Rog, when the Giants’ signed Rowand, I remember you did a breakdown of his homeruns and concluded that almost all of the homeruns he hit in Philly in 2007 would have also been homeruns at ATT. His terrible slump the second half of the 2008 season was probably more mental or physical than it was that he is a crappy ballplayer. I’m as down on Rowand as the next guy, but I still think he’ll have a bounceback season in 2009. Let’s not forget we were all going to mlb.com just a few months ago and trying to get him voted on to the all star team. Now he’s a bum?? I doubt it.
Brian Sabean's dad- will make a few phone calls to help his son find a new job after next season
The allstar game is stupid
Rowand isn’t a bum, but he’s also closing in on 32, and had a pretty crappy year last season. Forgive me for not being optimistic.
by bondslegend on Jan 17, 2009 11:01 AM PST up reply actions
We probably all expect him to bounce back
We just expect it to be to his career norm, not his crazy 2007 line.
..so allow me to present Tim Lincecum and Matt Cain as two sweet, sweet bottles of warming hooch.
Average year?
To be honest, I would be slightly surprised if Aaron bounced back to his career average. Take out 2004 and 2007, and he was pretty much AT his career average in 2008.
Taking out two seasons from a player with only six full campaigns isn’t fair, of course, but those two seasons are beginning to look like outliers. It wouldn’t seem Aaron is old enough for this to be the case, but is it possible he will never again approach his 2007 season?
I'm not selling
I’m not selling it, so it really doesn’t matter. :)
I understand your point and specifically said taking two seasons out of six full years wasn’t fair. But to me the chances of Aaron having even one more season such as 2004 and 2007 seem unlikely. Since he’s on a three-year pattern, maybe 2010! :)
Before I looked more deeply into the subject I too expected a bounce-back season from Aaron in 2009. But how is he going to have more than a modest bounce-back?
Well, he could cut down on his strikeouts, but over the past three seasons they have been getting clearly worse. He could hit more balls out of the park, but do you honestly think he’ll hit much more than 20 in a single season again?
He could get lucky — but his BABIP was .331 last season, or slightly higher than his .324 career mark.
Show me what makes you — or anyone — believe Aaron is likely to have a significant bounce-back. I want to believe, but thus far the facts just won’t let me.
Yeah it doesn't look good
However, he did hit like in 2004 and 2007 for the first two months of 2008 (900+ OPS), then was absolutely horrible for most of the rest of the season, even below his other seasons.
A veteran player normally does not lose it all suddenly during a season, the change is evident from season to season. So the hope is that he injured something serious when he banged himself up the first week he was with us, that while he recovered quickly enough to play well, it eventually affected his stamina enough (or finally gave up) to cause him to hit so terribly after May.
And we have a recent example of this happening too. Not too long ago, pretty much the same comments were made about Randy Winn, about how lousy he was and he’ll only get worse because of his age, plus he was horribly overpaid, but he apparently had an injury that some said affected him all season (though he claimed it didn’t). But if you averaged out his good year with his bad, you get pretty much what we have seen from him, season in, season out..
I think Rowand’s going to bounce back with a better season in 2009, so selling him low would just cost us, I would rather wait until mid-season to try to get better value for him.
However, Swisher would be an obvious player to pair up with Rowand in trade. Rowand is a better CF than Swisher, whereas we could play Swisher at 1B. Both had horrible 2008 seasons, but good careers up to then. Swisher is cheaper but contract lengths are about equal, Swisher is younger, but Yankees can eat contracts like Rowand’s without getting indigestion.
I would rather have Cano, but that’s not going to happen and in any case Swisher would be pretty good too, trading a surplus item for something we don’t have a good hitting 1B, though I would worry about him and the park..
Adoptive parental unit of Kevin " 2007's Most Spectacular Pitcher" Pucetas.
"I'm a Giant now... I like watching the ball get up there" - Wendell Fairley
"I'm really proud to be on this team." - Nate Schierholtz
"Woo hoo" - Tim "The Kid" Lincecum
by obsessivegiantscompulsive on Jan 19, 2009 5:07 PM PST up reply actions
How about?
How about Xavier Nady for Rowand, Norman? Xavier has been more than a serviceable first baseman when he has played there.
Randy Winn could play some version of center field in 2009, opening up right field for Nate Schierholtz (who is just FUMING that he hasn’t been considered for the hot corner, since as everyone at the McCovey Chronicles knows, Nate can play third base).
And after the 2009 season, the Giants could get a REAL center fielder to take over until
Rafael Rodriguez wows the world.
rowand injury
of course he was injured. fractured corneas in both eyes… it affected his pitch recognition, fly ball tracking, depth perception on cut off men, and well… finding the infield.
Only one Bum
The Giants have only one Bum — and that is Mad Bum.
I wasn’t going to mlb.com to vote him onto the All-Star team a few months ago because I didn’t think he deserved it even then. He had hit for a nice average, but not for much power. And his vaunted defense was, well, unvaunted.
Maybe Aaron was suffering from the injury he suffered early in the season — but it certainly didn’t hold him back in April and May, when he hit .313 and .343, respectively. And that was on top of going 2-for-3 in March.
The last four months of the season Aaron hit only .225, .256, .258 and .217. During those last four months he hit only 6 homers (4 of them in August) and walked only 27 times.
The only month of the season in which Aaron didn’t strike out 20 or more times as May, when he fanned on “only” 18 occasions.
Aaron his only 6 homers at home after hitting 17 the previous season. At least half that drop was expected. But he also fell from 10 road homers to just 7.
The cutback in homers doesn’t bother me NEARLY as much as his increase in strikeouts. Aaron struck out once every 4.4 at bats last season, after striking out once every 5.1 in 2007 and once every 5.4 trips in 2006. That’s not a good trend, and it escalated considerably last season.
Unless Aaron cuts well back on his strikeouts, he is going to have a hard time building much more than a minor bounceback. Despite his disappointing average, his BABIP was actually ABOVE his career average.
Aaron hit homers on 9.6% of his fly balls, not far off his 10.0% career average. But his 31.7% fly ball percentage was well off his 37.5% rate in 2007 — although not really much below his career average of 32.8%.
Rowand’s 2004 season in which he hit 34.9% fly balls and homered on an amazing 17.6% of them, and his 2007 season in which he hit 37.5% fly balls, knocking 14.5% of those out of the park, are beginning to look like outliers. Aaron hit .310 and .309 in those two seasons, his only two .300 years. With those two exceptions, Aaron has never hit above his .271 of last season in either of his other two full seasons.
Aaron had a .749 OPS last season, compared to a .795 career mark. But his declining home run rate and his escalating strikeout rate have Bill James, CHONE and Marcel projecting him at only .777, .759 and .777, respectively.
That would be a little bounceback in 2009 — but not the big one the Giants need.
After May, Aaron was WELL below an average center fielder last season. If he had finished strongly, perhaps we could be more optimistic. But over the last four months he batted only about .240 — with very little power or ability to reach base.
Oh, and his fielding was below-average, as well — not exactly what one would expect from a Gold Glover the previous season.
Maybe Aaron just needed glasses, and he’ll be back in 2009 with contacts as a new man. Let’s hope so.
You Are Making Too Many Assumptions
It could just as easily be that 2004 and 2007 represent what a fully healthy Aaron Rowand can do and the other years represtent what a banged up Aaron Rowand can do. You just choose to ignore this possibility because frankly you want to.
by giantsrainman on Jan 17, 2009 2:31 PM PST up reply actions
yeah, sharksrog, you want Rowand to suck!
by FluLikeSymptoms on Jan 17, 2009 2:35 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
even if rainman is right here, and it was injuries that have caused Rowand’s poorer seasons, what guarantee is there that he’ll be completely healthy throughout 2009?? The way he plays the game he’ll probably hurt himself again. Oh well, more playing time for Nate!!
Brian Sabean's dad- will make a few phone calls to help his son find a new job after next season
This Is True - But HIs History Say's About A 1/3 Shot At A Healthy Year
With 2008 being the likely downside I like the 1/3 shot at this upside.
by giantsrainman on Jan 17, 2009 4:57 PM PST up reply actions
Here's why I don't buy it
I like the 1/3 shot at this upside too, but at that rate Aaron will have only one good season in his remaining four. Two if luck goes his way a bit.
Do you think his poor performance last season was due to his early injury? I thought about that, but he actually played his best ball of the season both before and even WHILE he was injured. I was surprised at how well he played through the injury.
It was actually later that he had his problems. After a very nice April and May, he was well below average the last four months of the season.
Was it his injury that caused him to chase balls out of the strike zone? Was it his injury that caused him to continually miss the cutoff man? Was it his injury that caused him to take poor routes to fly balls?
Aaron keeps swinging at more and more pitches outside the zone. In 2005, he swung at just over 1/4 of pitches outside the zone. Last year he swung at nearly 1/3 of them. His percentage has been steadily rising each year.
Aaron’s contact rate was only 74.7% last season, after falling no lower than 77.8% in any of the previous three campaigns.
Because his discipline has decreased, pitchers have thrown him fewer and fewer strikes over the past four seasons, not even throwing half their pitches in the zone the past two years.
Pitchers weren’t particularly scared of Aaron last season, throwing him over 60% first-pitch strikes, even as they threw him fewer fastballs (57.3%) than in any of the previous three seasons.
It certainly isn’t to the degree of Barry Zito after the 2006 season, but far too many of Aaron’s peripherals seem to be heading the wrong direction.
Don't rain on my parade
You actually make a good point, Rainman — although you somewhat destroy it while making it.
2004 and 2007 might indeed represent what Aaron Rowand can do when healthy. I hadn’t really thought about that. But if he as been injured four of the past six years, what makes us think he is more likely to be healthy as he ages?
As for your saying that I choose to ignore the possiblity because frankly I want to, unless you can read my mind, that is an idiotic statement to make.
Maybe I was wrong
Perhaps I was wrong. Maybe you CAN read my mind. In that case your statement was not only idiotic but a lie.
Oh man
You actually make a good point, Rainman — although you somewhat destroy it while making it.
The rare, yet extra painful sharksrog burn.
..so allow me to present Tim Lincecum and Matt Cain as two sweet, sweet bottles of warming hooch.
I find
That you’re always better off using all of the data you have. I see no reason to ignore such a big chunk of Rowand’s career.
..so allow me to present Tim Lincecum and Matt Cain as two sweet, sweet bottles of warming hooch.
You make a good point
You make a good point here, Cookyman, but let’s take a look at Aaron’s 2007 season.
. He hit 17 of his 27 homers in the friendly confines of his home park.
. He hit for a .348 BABIP in 2007, indicating some of his success may have been due to luck.
Aaron’s career batting average is .283. Does that make him more likely to hit .271 as he did last season, or .309 as he did in 2007?
As for Aaron being healthy in only 2004 and 2007, while he played in only 109 games in 2006, he played in 157 games in 2005, batting .270, and in 152 games last season, batting .271.
I would just LOVE for Aaron to have a bounce-back season — and stay there. Can you give me some logical reason for hope here?
Don't get me wrong
I agree. I’m just saying that ignoring 2 full seasons just because they’re different from the other four isn’t a good idea. But you seem to understand that.
..so allow me to present Tim Lincecum and Matt Cain as two sweet, sweet bottles of warming hooch.
Yeah
Yeah, Cookyman, your point was a good one. And even though I want Aaron Rowand to suck, I hope he breaks out with the four best years of his career, at which point the World Champion Giants will turn his position over to Rafael Rodriguez.
Um
Don’t you think it makes it more likely that he will hit .283? Otherwise, why even pay attention to what he did in the past.
This is “Marvin the brain damaged Monkey” prediction system.
I am reasonably certain that the fact that he sometimes hits .275 and sometimes hits .310 is a selective end points fluke due to seasons of finite length. I don’t think you should treat it as a discreet probablilty bag and put 2 .300 seasons and 3 .270 seasons in a bag and pull out one for 2009.
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
Yes
That’s what I was trying to say.
..so allow me to present Tim Lincecum and Matt Cain as two sweet, sweet bottles of warming hooch.
Don't
Don’t you hate it when someone else makes your point better than you did?
You probably don’t have that problem, but it plagues me continually. I had to hire the great, great, great, great grandson of Cyrano DeBergerac to woo my wife, only to find out he wasn’t so great after all. But my wife too pity on me and became my wife.
Also a good point
Also a good point, Zenbitz. But I’m worried about the escalating increase in Aaron’s strikeout rate.
I just don’t know any of these guys well enough to call them by their first name.
Fairley odd parent to Wendell
First name
My son is named Aaron, so it just came naturally to me.
Statcorner has park adjusted wOBA, I think.
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
The offers would be Luis Castillo and a rhesus monkey, in which case we should just keep Rowand.
I’m not so sure… I’d like to hear more about this rhesus monkey.
“I’d like to hear more about this rhesus monkey.”
+1
Does he wear diapers? Because I think that’s just adorable.
Haven't been to The Examined Life? No wonder your life feels so empty.
"I been waitin' a long time for this! I been waitin' since the f**kin' amateurs!" --WILL "THE THRILL" CLARK
by Josh from Hollywood on Jan 15, 2009 2:26 PM PST up reply actions
Rhesus peace
/obscure Pearls Before Swine reference
Molina's gonna test his arm...
by Victorious Secret on Jan 15, 2009 5:11 PM PST up reply actions
Could the rhesus monkey play 3B? He’d definitely draw a lot of walks…
Idolizing Robb Nen since 2002...
by Smoke on the Water on Jan 15, 2009 4:33 PM PST up reply actions
No, but he could throw his poop at the fans. For strikes.
Disfrute Los Gigantes every day at www.leftymalo.com
Sign him!!!
Great for games at The Laterine.
Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!
Here comes Captain Obvious wearing his Atomic Wedgie!
by daveinexile on Jan 19, 2009 11:05 AM PST up reply actions
I gotta like Fred for being candid with us fans. Maybe at the expense of getting management mad at him for it.
Shulman a couple of days ago was real clear that Boras wants 4 yrs guaranteed, and there was a “Grand Canyon” of difference as Giants would not go that long. 4 yrs seems like a huge risk with Manny’s lousy D and varying enthusiasm.
Rowand for Swisher makes sense to me. Got Winn for center this year, see if Fred can handle it next, or somebody else. I forget what Swisher’s contract is.
adopter/sponsor of "Go, Antoan" Richardson
that's a fun interview, thanks
We don't really have that much pitching depth. We don't really have that much pitching depth. FOR GOD SAKE, VERUCA, DON'T GO FAKE TRADING JONATHAN SANCHEZ. We don't really have that much pitching depth
Similar FLew story in today's Chron
They say some players get out of bed hitting; Pablo Sandoval doesn't wait that long
i’ll be upset if they really do bat lewis behind molina.
"ever so cynical yet whimsical giants related signature"
by The Gene Hackman on Jan 15, 2009 12:01 PM PST up reply actions
Really. I mean what was even the point of taking the bunion off if you’re gonna do that?
Get the hell out the way Bengie, Pablito's hit the show!
The're cold and insensitive.
Who has the fun?
Is it always the man with the gun?
- The Stranglers
by victor frankenstein on Jan 15, 2009 2:28 PM PST up reply actions
Who has the fun?
Is it always the man with the gun?
- The Stranglers
by victor frankenstein on Jan 15, 2009 2:32 PM PST up reply actions
Wow that is bizzare
How did Icanhascheezburger get a pic of my left foot.
I am totally dead serious my foot looks exactly like that – down to the bunion, funny toes, and big veins.
Hmm… my pinky toe is slightly less squished however.
Oh ya Bunions. I’ve had one for 20 years. Hurt a little bit when I first got it. Now the only effect is that I wear out shoes a little faster.
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
Shoes? HA!
Really am wondering what Fred’s beef was…
Who has the fun?
Is it always the man with the gun?
- The Stranglers
by victor frankenstein on Jan 15, 2009 6:01 PM PST up reply actions
Bengie Molina's foot
Brian Sabean's dad- will make a few phone calls to help his son find a new job after next season
Cause/effect
Who has the fun?
Is it always the man with the gun?
- The Stranglers
by victor frankenstein on Jan 17, 2009 9:18 AM PST up reply actions
Could use a pedi…
"While conservatives tell you 'leave things alone and no one will lose,' and liberals tell you 'interfere a lot and no one will lose,' baseball says 'someone will lose.' Not only says it - but insists upon it! ... Democracy is lovely, but baseball's more mature." BVCE supports SF Dugout and Manny Burriss.
by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Jan 17, 2009 10:22 AM PST up reply actions
Since
But since Baron started taking mental steroids, she doesn’t make typos anymore. She simply imagines she is on steroids, and suddenly her words go farther, even though she isn’t typing them harder.
pft
My finger to keyboard coordination is off the charts. Steroids don’t do that! It was B12…
"While conservatives tell you 'leave things alone and no one will lose,' and liberals tell you 'interfere a lot and no one will lose,' baseball says 'someone will lose.' Not only says it - but insists upon it! ... Democracy is lovely, but baseball's more mature." BVCE supports SF Dugout and Manny Burriss.
by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Jan 18, 2009 9:01 PM PST up reply actions
Mentats fTW!
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
I like to throw three down, Mentats, Psycho, and Buffout, and just go CRAZY!
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realized God doesn’t work that way, so I stole one and prayed for forgiveness. - Emo Philips
Neglectful father of David Quinowski
Watch out, man. That stuff is addictive.
by chilibean_3 on Jan 19, 2009 12:05 PM PST up reply actions
So they tell me
But that’s why I have my very own laboratory in my house.
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realized God doesn’t work that way, so I stole one and prayed for forgiveness. - Emo Philips
Neglectful father of David Quinowski
Don't forget the
“Flax Seed Oil” (wink,wink)
"Just take the ball and throw it where you want to. Throw strikes. Home plate don't move."-Leroy "Satchel" Paige
My adopted son Matt Downs . Utility Infielder with a Bat !
wtf...over.
Who has the fun?
Is it always the man with the gun?
- The Stranglers
by victor frankenstein on Jan 18, 2009 7:14 PM PST up reply actions
There will be a whole bunch of angry people when Manny eventually signs with the Dodgers.
by Lars The Wanderer on Jan 15, 2009 11:19 AM PST reply actions
Maybe so
But I won’t be one of them. I’d settle for Boras using the Giants to drive up Manny’s price, and the Dodgers signing another pricey outfielder just to try and stay in contention.
If that happens, I will consider it another good piece of collaboration between Sabean and Secret Agent Ned.
I'm as tall as Mel - why can't I hit 500 home runs?
I totally agree
frankly im happy if we get manny for 2 years or just trade winn for swish + prospect/cash.Hell even if we stand pat im okay with Ish getting the nod.
by Giant Voodoo on Jan 15, 2009 11:37 AM PST up reply actions
I can't stop thinking of Travis Ishikawa
Hope TI does not get lost in the mix this spring. Hope SF gives him a real opportunity to compete for the 1b job.
absolutely
I like being pleasantly suprised i.e. Fred Lewis and Pablo Sandoval. It is also one of the reasons im hot on Swisher. Swisher can easily play right or left for us and Ish can play 1b here and there.
by Giant Voodoo on Jan 15, 2009 1:26 PM PST up reply actions
Not me
If he signs with LA, I’ll be relieved not to have to climb on the bandwagon and happy not to see a bunch of fake dreads at Mays Field. If he signs with us, I’ll just hold my nose and enjoy the dingerz.
We don't really have that much pitching depth. We don't really have that much pitching depth. FOR GOD SAKE, VERUCA, DON'T GO FAKE TRADING JONATHAN SANCHEZ. We don't really have that much pitching depth
But we could use those fake dreads to pass Pablo off as Manny
.. as commented on below :)
by pittsburghian on Jan 15, 2009 1:46 PM PST up reply actions
♥Fred♥
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
I SAW HIM FIRST!!!
Haven't been to The Examined Life? No wonder your life feels so empty.
"I been waitin' a long time for this! I been waitin' since the f**kin' amateurs!" --WILL "THE THRILL" CLARK
by Josh from Hollywood on Jan 15, 2009 2:28 PM PST up reply actions
I WILL CUT YOU
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
...LIKE A BUNYON
They say some players get out of bed hitting; Pablo Sandoval doesn't wait that long
Hey bitch this is me and jponry’s fight. He’s ours. Get your own!
"While conservatives tell you 'leave things alone and no one will lose,' and liberals tell you 'interfere a lot and no one will lose,' baseball says 'someone will lose.' Not only says it - but insists upon it! ... Democracy is lovely, but baseball's more mature." BVCE supports SF Dugout and Manny Burriss.
by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Jan 15, 2009 4:11 PM PST up reply actions
Everyone get your popcorn ready
Wall-E for Best Picture 2008
by Useful_Idiot on Jan 15, 2009 8:44 PM PST up reply actions
hearts
Saying how happy he was that he can wear a shoe on his right foot again after the surgery and lengthy rehab, the noted clothes horse said, “Now I get to match my wardrobe better. I was wearing black Air Force Ones with black socks trying to match my outfits.”
"While conservatives tell you 'leave things alone and no one will lose,' and liberals tell you 'interfere a lot and no one will lose,' baseball says 'someone will lose.' Not only says it - but insists upon it! ... Democracy is lovely, but baseball's more mature." BVCE supports SF Dugout and Manny Burriss.
by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Jan 15, 2009 8:28 PM PST up reply actions
Lewis get to stompin’ in his Er Force Ones
Giant Dirtbags: Brian Anderson, Todd Jennings, Steve Hammond, John Bowker
Jeremy Affeldt Ready To Make His Father Proud
by Giant among Angels on Jan 15, 2009 8:36 PM PST up reply actions
for the love of God, Rowand is not getting traded
as I have said on here before, show me a case where a team signed a player to a long term contract and then traded him within a year or so. The only case anybody has been able to think of is Carlos Delgado, and that was part of a full on fire sale. I think trading a guy that soon after signing him to a long term contract would be seen as an ethical breach and would lead every future free agent who negotiates with the Giants to ask “do you plan to actually honor my contract, or are you going to trade me as soon as your plans change?” followed by them insisting on an absolutely iron-clad no trade clause.
by FluLikeSymptoms on Jan 15, 2009 12:41 PM PST reply actions
Swisher is a different situation, because he was traded to the White Sox originally, he didn’t choose to sign with them as a free agent.
by FluLikeSymptoms on Jan 15, 2009 1:04 PM PST up reply actions
Seems like a whole bunch of yeah buts you got down there below. How bout the Red Sox signing Bronson Arroyo to a three year “hometown discount” contract and then trading him to the Reds before the ink was dried.
Get the hell out the way Bengie, Pablito's hit the show!
man, I had forgotten about that Arroyo situation
that is incredibly bush league
by FluLikeSymptoms on Jan 15, 2009 8:47 PM PST up reply actions
It’s true, that’s awful… But I lol every time someone brings it up.
Wall-E for Best Picture 2008
by Useful_Idiot on Jan 15, 2009 11:49 PM PST up reply actions
no
he was traded just before his original MLB contract expired (so, like, the exact opposite of this situation would be)
by FluLikeSymptoms on Jan 15, 2009 1:07 PM PST up reply actions
he played one year in Detroit and then left as a free agent
by FluLikeSymptoms on Jan 15, 2009 1:33 PM PST up reply actions
Edgar Renteria
December 19, 2004: Signed as a Free Agent with the Boston Red Sox.
December 8, 2005: Traded by the Boston Red Sox with cash to the Atlanta Braves for Andy Marte.
We're all basically Pedro Feliz.
that's a good one
but a bit of a different situation because it was a mutually beneficial divorce after the contract didn’t work out well for either side.
by FluLikeSymptoms on Jan 15, 2009 1:17 PM PST up reply actions
different situation
b/c rowands contract is working out so well here?
"ever so cynical yet whimsical giants related signature"
by The Gene Hackman on Jan 15, 2009 1:31 PM PST up reply actions
Matt Morris
December 13, 2005: Signed as a Free Agent with the San Francisco Giants.
July 31, 2007: Traded by the San Francisco Giants to the Pittsburgh Pirates for a player to be named later and Rajai Davis. The Pittsburgh Pirates sent Stephen MacFarland (minors) (August 27, 2007) to the San Francisco Giants to complete the trade.
We're all basically Pedro Feliz.
yes, but Morris was halfway through a 3 year contract, which I think is a lot different than being 20% of the way through a 5 year contract.
by FluLikeSymptoms on Jan 15, 2009 1:18 PM PST up reply actions
Also
How is it an ethical breach when you play like shit? If you play like crap there really is no onus on the team for trying to get rid of you. No matter how many years are left on your contract. And I really don’t think it would effect other people trying to sign here.
Corey Koskie
December 14, 2004: Signed as a Free Agent with the Toronto Blue Jays. (3 years, $17M)
January 6, 2006: Traded by the Toronto Blue Jays to the Milwaukee Brewers for Brian Wolfe.
We're all basically Pedro Feliz.
really, Corey Koskie?
the total value of that contract is barely more than 1 year of Rowand’s
by FluLikeSymptoms on Jan 15, 2009 1:34 PM PST up reply actions
Mike Hampton
Traded 2 years into an 8-year contract (then flipped again two days later). Rockies had to eat a huge chunk of the contract, but still.
Adoptive father to the All-Father. Does that make me the All-Grandfather?
Moises Alou
Another fire-sale situation, but traded by the Marlins one year after signing a five year deal.
Adoptive father to the All-Father. Does that make me the All-Grandfather?
McGriff
Signed as FA with the Braves in 2005 and was traded two years later
My adopted Giant: "Raptor Jesus" Guzman
they basically gave McGriff to the Devil Rays when they were an exapnsion team, and (if i remember right) that was at McGriff’s request.
by FluLikeSymptoms on Jan 15, 2009 2:56 PM PST up reply actions
Kevin Mitchell!
March 8, 1996: Signed as a Free Agent with the Boston Red Sox.
July 30, 1996: Traded by the Boston Red Sox to the Cincinnati Reds for Roberto Mejia and Brad Tweedie (minors).
My adopted Giant: "Raptor Jesus" Guzman
He was playing on a 1 year contract. Although, in Kevin Mitchell’s world, one year is long term.
by FluLikeSymptoms on Jan 15, 2009 2:58 PM PST up reply actions
so, my point was that this would be frowned upon as unethical within in the industry, and that it is very rare that a player would sign a long term contract as a free agent and then be traded away so quickly.
On the 2nd point, so far, we have come up with:
Carlos Delgado and Moises Alou being traded as part of organizational fire sales
Mike Hampton being traded in one of the most complex 3 way trades you will ever see
Edgar Renteria being traded by the Red Sox in a mutually beneficial divorce
Corey Koskie being traded 1 year into a (relatively) modest 3 year contract
Fred McGriff being given away so that he could play for his hometown expansion team
I think this proves my point that this would be extremely rare quite nicely. It has only happened a few times and has always involved an extenuating circumstance.
by FluLikeSymptoms on Jan 15, 2009 4:39 PM PST up reply actions
he was traded after playing 3 years of a 6 year contract, I wouldn’t exactly call that immediately
by FluLikeSymptoms on Jan 15, 2009 8:29 PM PST up reply actions
How to get Manny Ramirez under contract for free for the foreseeable future...
I just saw part of the video of Pablo at bat. We just need someone to go to a Dodgers store, get one of those Manny-Dreds and get Pablo to wear ’em. The only deficiency is what side of the plate he bats if you watch the video, as some of his home plate approaches look a bit like Manny. Just put him in left field and perhaps no one will know better.
If Happy Pete was willing to go a few years with the wrong name, I’m sure Pablo won’t mind us putting Ramirez on his jersey.
I'm not sure I get what you're saying...
Feliz had the wrong name?
The Basil Fawlty Moderating Strategy:
"We could run a nice blog here if we didn't have all these members getting in the way."
Don't You Rember When We Found Out He Was Actually 26 and not 23?
Post 9/11 Visa problem forced him to confess he had been using the identity of a younger cousin. I forget what first name he went under before but I do remember the incident.
by giantsrainman on Jan 15, 2009 4:11 PM PST up reply actions
Felix was the name if I recall.
(Topps card had him as Felix for a few years, as that is what the organization had him listed as)
by pittsburghian on Jan 15, 2009 5:00 PM PST up reply actions
Rowand at WAR
Three days ago Xanthan posts 2009 WAR projections for the Giants hitters, and shows Rowand as the most productive hitter they have, followed by Renteria and Winn. Today Rowand, in this thread, is getting trashed, traded, and tricked out like a rhesus monkey. I know that Obama said that embittered provincials cling to their guns and Bibles, but I suppose he should have added free venting space on the McCovey chronicles.
dude
You should know by now that “best projected hitter on the 2009 SF Giants” is damning with faint praise indeed.
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
Best hitter on the 2009 Giants?
you take that back buddy!
by FluLikeSymptoms on Jan 15, 2009 4:07 PM PST up reply actions
Do..
WAR projections, let along any projections, really do anything to project a single hitter? I mean, what is the success rate to a single projection? I’m aware that they do well for multiple situations, say a projection for a team or league, but to say Rowand will be the most productive hitter is kind of misleading.
The Basil Fawlty Moderating Strategy:
"We could run a nice blog here if we didn't have all these members getting in the way."
each individual projection has a sample size of 1
by FluLikeSymptoms on Jan 15, 2009 4:08 PM PST up reply actions
hey
you learned something from that stats class after all
Projections are designed to minimize the total difference between actual and predicted performance for a group of players, not to get any single player right.
We don't really have that much pitching depth. We don't really have that much pitching depth. FOR GOD SAKE, VERUCA, DON'T GO FAKE TRADING JONATHAN SANCHEZ. We don't really have that much pitching depth
I've never taken stats.
The Basil Fawlty Moderating Strategy:
"We could run a nice blog here if we didn't have all these members getting in the way."
It’s better than regular math.
"While conservatives tell you 'leave things alone and no one will lose,' and liberals tell you 'interfere a lot and no one will lose,' baseball says 'someone will lose.' Not only says it - but insists upon it! ... Democracy is lovely, but baseball's more mature." BVCE supports SF Dugout and Manny Burriss.
by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Jan 15, 2009 5:50 PM PST up reply actions
I've been interested in it..
And I know there are some places that teach it with a baseball view, which would be interesting at least.
The Basil Fawlty Moderating Strategy:
"We could run a nice blog here if we didn't have all these members getting in the way."
You mean you've never knowingly taken stats.
And anyway, they weren’t considered stats at the time you took them.
Adoptive father to the All-Father. Does that make me the All-Grandfather?
by EliminateMe on Jan 16, 2009 12:47 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
No it isn't.
What the projection is saying is that he is MOST LIKELY to be their most productive hitter.
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
Position
Isn’t Wins Above Replacement sorted by position? If so, Rowand would be competing against lesser replacements than would Randy Winn in right field. As for Molina, he isn’t a good hitter — just a very clutch one.
Only True When You Ignore Defense.
Yes, lesser offensive replacements but better defensive replacements and thus the same overall.
by giantsrainman on Jan 16, 2009 3:50 PM PST up reply actions
Manny's attitude
Has anyone thought about Manny’s attitude if he does not get the 4 year deal he thinks he deserves? If the market is not there for 4 or even 3 year guaranted deal for Manny, it seems less likely every day, I can guaranttee you that sooner rather than later, his attitude, performance and antics are going to fall off the table. He will only be happy and hence productive IF he gets what he thinks he deserves.
IMHO Any GM that gives Manny a guaranteed 4 year or even 3 deal is a fool.
Radical Racing
Exactly
There are two options here: overpay for 4 years, or put up with his sulking and pouting for 2 years
Wall-E for Best Picture 2008
The above is supposed to be a response to Radical Racing
Wall-E for Best Picture 2008
by Useful_Idiot on Jan 15, 2009 6:33 PM PST up reply actions
why would he sulk and pout with the team that gives him the best offer that he gets? I would bet it’s more likely that Manny goes out there and tries to show what a mistake all the other teams made. Not to mention the fact that if he signs a two year deal he’ll want to get yet another contract after that one expires. He’d probably actually be worse with a guaranteed four year deal. What incentive would he have after he signs what probably would be the last deal of his career??
Brian Sabean's dad- will make a few phone calls to help his son find a new job after next season
I don't think Manny thinks that way
I just can’t see him going out there thinking, “well I didn’t get what I wanted, but you know what? Oh well, I did the best I could.”
Last year was a contract year, and look how he screwed around in Boston? He only quieted down once he got out of Boston, like he wanted.
Wall-E for Best Picture 2008
by Useful_Idiot on Jan 17, 2009 5:09 PM PST up reply actions
Tonight's MLB Hot Stove on MLB Network mentioned this
…They then did a side by side comparison of Lewis and Manny’s 09 stats……
Then interviewed Agent Ned over the phone
“We will do what we can do to get them back…….We will do whatever it takes to get him back…” but then says “The problem is the length and the amount..”
Then he would not go into detail when/if they will put their next offer out there.
Giant Dirtbags: Brian Anderson, Todd Jennings, Steve Hammond, John Bowker
Don't F with the Affeldt
by Giant among Angels on Jan 15, 2009 11:14 PM PST reply actions
…They then did a side by side comparison of Lewis and Manny’s 09 stats……
Out of curiosity, what stats did they show? My guess is AVG, HR’s, RBI’s, and AVG w/ RISP.
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realized God doesn’t work that way, so I stole one and prayed for forgiveness. - Emo Philips
Neglectful father of David Quinowski
Yeah, they showed the basic stats you mentioned
Giant Dirtbags: Brian Anderson, Todd Jennings, Steve Hammond, John Bowker
Don't F with the Affeldt
by Giant among Angels on Jan 16, 2009 12:35 PM PST up reply actions
all that’s keeping them apart is the “length and the amount??” Isn’t that the thing keeping every single FA out there from every single team??
Brian Sabean's dad- will make a few phone calls to help his son find a new job after next season
True. I was just relaying some footage(dialogue) from the MLB channel that not everyone gets on their tv provider.
Giant Dirtbags: Brian Anderson, Todd Jennings, Steve Hammond, John Bowker
Don't F with the Affeldt
by Giant among Angels on Jan 16, 2009 1:53 PM PST up reply actions
It ain't you
it’s Colletti. Brian Sabean trained him to talk about kicking tires and what to do “at the end of the day.” See what happens when he goes off message??
Brian Sabean's dad- will make a few phone calls to help his son find a new job after next season
At the end of the day
As a Giants fan, I have found that kicking the tires often leaves a team at the end of the day hoping to find lightning in a bottle.
Be that as it may, you can rest assured that you have done your due diligence.
by Lars The Wanderer on Jan 17, 2009 2:19 PM PST up reply actions
it’s so true about how the Giants’ try to find “lightning in a bottle.” Sabean made comments after last season about being able to find a power hitter because teams will be looking to trade arb eligible players. As we have seen, this didn’t happen. Now Neukom talks about how teams will be unloading players during the season, basically because of the economy. After this doesn’t happen either, what will be the next miracle they expect to happen which will make teams want to hand over their power hitters to the Giants??
Brian Sabean's dad- will make a few phone calls to help his son find a new job after next season
Sabean’s Jedi mind powers
Wall-E for Best Picture 2008
by Useful_Idiot on Jan 17, 2009 5:14 PM PST up reply actions
Possible
It is possible the economy will indeed force some teams to unload salary. But that would seem more likely to me over next winter or perhaps during the 2010 season.
The one good thing the owners have managed to do without colluding (to the best of my knowledge) is put more reasonable contracts in place for baseball’s middle class. In most cases the stars deserve their contracts as long as they produce. It is the second-tier and lower players who have been the most overpaid IMO.
The guys at the very top deserve lots, and the guys at the bottom deserve little above the minimum. It is the guys in the middle who have been getting too much.
The top stars might be compared to corporate presidents. The average player is more like middle management, much more easily replaced and thus far less valuable.
Even after
Even after I had done my due diligence, the playoffs were STILL a crapshoot.
Do your due. Do the Dew.
Sometimes it makes no difference or sense whatsoever.
Who has the fun?
Is it always the man with the gun?
- The Stranglers
by victor frankenstein on Jan 19, 2009 12:28 PM PST up reply actions
Don't forget
Don’t forget Mr. Green Jeans, Captain.
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