Bonds blockbuster: ‘The Clear’ was legal
Interesting read. The government sure is gonna feel stupid when they have wasted $60 million and don't get a conviction on a single count!
about 3 years ago
m34josh
70 comments
10 recs |
Email
PrintComments
Wow
If this is true, I will be laughing at a lot of people on the espn boards.
Then I will weep over all the taxpayer money gone…
that taxpayer money is just a drop in the bucket of what’s been wasted and not even that compared to what’s going to be wasted.
Proud adopted parent of future big league slugger Thomas Neal
by nostocksjustbonds on Jan 14, 2009 9:11 PM PST up reply actions
That's the deal with designer drugs
They can’t be outlawed until they’re discovered and their molecular structure is known. Then there has to be legislation outlawing the molecule. If a chemist can’t detect a substance, then the chemist can’t know it’s a steroid.
So how is a ballplayer to know?
Wasn't there discussion on this when BALCO first broke
and it turned out that the laws were broad enough to cover similar substances with similar effects (which is kind of funny, because, as we all found out in the BALCO aftermath, there haven’t really been any scientific trials of steroids on humans to establish their effects [and side effects])?
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
most drug laws
close that loophole… by saying “compounds related to with similar properties”. So you cannot make a “trivial” chemical modification to an illegal substance and render it (temporarily) legal. This issue with the clear is that AT THE TIME you had to prove the substance was “androgenic” or something (but since you never do trials…) that loop hole (for sterioids has been closed to)
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
Such laws are overbroad
and presume too much knowledge on the part of potential offenders. How is a ballplayer to know if a chemical change is trivial?
total process crime. the feds have been going after Bonds from the beginning…instead of prosecuting real criminals.
Proud adopted parent of future big league slugger Thomas Neal
by nostocksjustbonds on Jan 14, 2009 9:12 PM PST reply actions
Less than Two thousand fucking dollars worth of drugs?
Neither Conte nor Anderson was charged with distributing THG. In fact, nobody in the seven-year BALCO investigation has been charged with possession or trafficking of the drug. Less than $2,000 of drugs was found in the highly publicized raid of the Burlingame, Calif., laboratory in 2003.
Besides the staggering amount of taxpayers’ money the investigation has cost, BALCO spawned Congressional hearings, countless television news accounts and the bestselling book, "Game of Shadows." Yet the lack of a federal criminal punch made it difficult for the government to bring traditional charges against athletes for taking drugs.
The paucity of illegal profits and drugs raises the question whether prosecutors realized that the only potential for criminalizing the behavior of athletes who took banned substances was to set perjury traps or bait athletes into lying to the grand jury or to a federal agent.
"It sounds like a misuse of the grand jury," said John Bartko, a former assistant U.S. Attorney in San Francisco who has tried perjury cases. "They go and try to trip the guy into lying."
The government believes it has tripped Bonds, but whether he falls will be determined in court. The fact that the key drug he is accused of taking was legal and not recognized as a steroid under federal law could complicate the case, experts say.
"I don’t understand why the government would seek an indictment after obtaining Catlin’s expert testimony that the Clear was not a steroid," Cannon said. "Why come up with an indictment based on an ambiguous definition?"
So, in other words, what Bonds was doing wasn’t illegal and yet they were investigating him anyway, KNOWING THAT IT WASN’T A CRIME???? Sounds like prosecutorial misconduct to me.
Proud adopted parent of future big league slugger Thomas Neal
by nostocksjustbonds on Jan 14, 2009 9:42 PM PST reply actions
This is what happens when people who worship Nixon are allowed off their reservations country clubs with supervision.
Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!
Here comes Captain Obvious wearing his Atomic Wedgie!
I'd disagree...
In fact, I’d say it’s the opposite.
It’s those people who worship those who brought Nixon down that caused this. The thought that any sort of Journalistic Vigilantism is something that can be compared to the job that Woodward and Bernstein started and David Frost finished is ridiculous. The people the want a crime charged are those who were worked into a froth by reporters pushing a story ridiculously hard to find a scandal.
SFDugout.com is BACK! See the Top 50 Giants Prospects!
by BruteSentiment on Jan 15, 2009 11:59 AM PST up reply actions
having just heard a lecture from Woodward and Bernstein last night
They said, and I agree, that the problem with investigative journalism now is that journalists are catering to an audience with a very short attention span. To make up for this, they manufacture controversy, and substitute this false scandal for actual investigative work. Real investigative journalism takes time, and usually only discovers new details in small increments. People (and newspaper publishers) today don’t have the patience for that kind of thing, so you end up with what happened here.
Real investigative journalists who are willing to do the actual work and find the “best available version of the truth” are really valuable to a free society, but those who substitute controversy for facts are extremely harmful.
by Viliphied on Jan 15, 2009 12:07 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
This might be a good place to point out a lot of the same things were bleated by their grand fathers about Sinclair’s books and T.R. actions. They just cry because suddenly they were held accountable, for a brief span of time, the way over 99% of us are ( either to ourselves or society) most of the time. We don’t get to declare when are immune to negative effects we cause.
Nixon wanted the money. He didn’t have to accept Frost’s bid. Nor did Nixon have to answer. He was man with almost 40 years of public life by then and could have talked around things. Neither Frost, Woodward etc were elected public officials. So to expect them to live up an ethical and moral standard that is not even applied to a public officials is lazy ethics and logic on the part of one doing the expecting.
Lastly saying, or inferring, the only people wanting charges were on the far opposite fringe is flat out wrong. When long time serving members of congress from your own party go tell a sitting president he has to go that is huge and that is not fringe. Look at the mess this last clown is leaving and that never happened with him.
All said I feel no animosity towards you Bruce. Just encase others think there is bitterness brewing here. And I will willing drop the topic as non baseball related should the mods feel it is wisest.
Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!
Here comes Captain Obvious wearing his Atomic Wedgie!
by daveinexile on Jan 15, 2009 12:59 PM PST up reply actions
Whoa, hold on a sec..
…just to clarify, I have NO problem with Woodward, Bernstein or Frost. What they did was laudable at worst, and excellent at best. They acted with incredible ethics, in my opinion, in their fact-checking and pursued a true objective.
Also, another clarification. When I said
The people the want a crime charged are those who were worked into a froth by reporters pushing a story ridiculously hard to find a scandal.
I meant in the Bonds case, not with Nixon. I apologize for not making that clearer when I originally wrote it (I was distracted by a beautiful woman, and one who was in person and not on the web, no less :) ).
My problem is those who worship W&B, and view journalism as an outlet for frustration, activism…or, for that matter, paparazzism and profit. Those are things that turn journalism away from the ethics that I feel we should apply to everyone, from President to street sweeper. Whether or not we as a society are doesn’t mean we shouldn’t let anyone off the hook.
The writings of the Chronicle reporters, and the ethics of the editors of said paper, were disgusting to me as a journalist myself (even an admitted fringe one). I approve of vigilante journalism when it appears justice through the system isn’t be served. However, to leak Grand Jury Testimony of an ONGOING trial, leaked by the freakin’ defense attorney in a (successful) bid to compromise the trial and distract people from his client, is the kind of ethical breach that’s clear to even spider monkeys. I’d respect them more if at least they were honest about doing it to sell papers; it’d be shitty, but honest. But for them to invoke names of W&B and talk about duties and all that was just an insult to journalists everywhere.
Again, I apologize for the confusion.
SFDugout.com is BACK! See the Top 50 Giants Prospects!
by BruteSentiment on Jan 15, 2009 6:43 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
First off sorry for the dely. I was out of touch all week end.
Second off I apologize for deeply miss reading your post. I ended up putting words in your mouth and that never cool in my book.
I agree with the whole hero worship thing. Then combining it with "Ends justifying the Means" rarely turns out well and it matters little what the particular ends are.
Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!
Here comes Captain Obvious wearing his Atomic Wedgie!
Here Is What The Rainman Has Been Feeling Now More Then Ever
Barry is going to walk. Manny is going to sign with the Dodgers. Barry is going to get JT to teach him to play 1B and sign with the Giants. Barry is going to lead the Giants to the NL West Title over Manny and the Dodgers.
keep hope alive!
Proud adopted parent of future big league slugger Thomas Neal
by nostocksjustbonds on Jan 14, 2009 10:03 PM PST up reply actions
Referencing yourself in the third person again?
Nice…
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
Giants' aren't taking Barry back
They’ve had enough with the media distractions and the feeding frenzy. They’re not putting themselves through that again, especially when the guy’s 45 years old and coming off of yet another surgery.
Brian Sabean's dad- will make a few phone calls to help his son find a new job after next season
You forgot the part where the Giants trade Barry to the Yankees for A-Rod.
Adoptive father to the All-Father. Does that make me the All-Grandfather?
I believe!
But I don’t think he will play 1b. He’d be a huge defensive liability there.
by positiveuphemism on Jan 16, 2009 12:08 PM PST up reply actions
nice sarchasm
Giant Dirtbags: Brian Anderson, Todd Jennings, Steve Hammond, John Bowker
Don't F with the Affeldt
by Giant among Angels on Jan 16, 2009 11:14 PM PST up reply actions
“Hey guys, we still have the cream, right? Right?”
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
Maybe this remark belongs over in the other fanpost, where people are posting homoerotic pictures.
Never has a poster been more correct in the history of the internet. Ever! - ResDog on yours truly
USA! USA! USA!
Adopted son of in limbo Brad Hennessey. Beloved for a stolen base much like Dave Roberts
by AndYourBirdCanSing on Jan 14, 2009 10:35 PM PST reply actions
HA!
EAT IT HATERS! Go Barry! Fuck Clemens! Fuck the media and their witchhunt of Barry. And most especially FUCK YOU PEDRO GOMEZ!
Rice, Dawson, Dave Fuckin' Parker and Jay Belol
But no TIM RAINES11
Go sit in the corner with Corky asshole
Can't get enough of the Oakland A's? Visit Oaktown Awesomer's
by iamawesomer on Jan 14, 2009 11:24 PM PST up reply actions
More From Yahoo
Chain of Custody for Barry’s allegied failed steroids tests may have too many holes.
Yahoo Is Cleaning All The Other Media Outlets Clock On This
Here are some actual details On Barry’s defense teams’ motions to exclude evidence.
by giantsrainman on Jan 15, 2009 10:20 PM PST up reply actions
NEO-TOKYO IS ABOUT TO E.X.P.L.O.D.E
cues ‘Battle Against Clown’
Fred Lewis can stand under my umbrella.
31 May 2007, 21:38 EST - the last time Matteh's career W-L wasn't below.500
We are at war with Los Angeles. We have always been at war with Los Angles.
Difference between not guilty and not wrong
I don’t get it. If the Clear is a steroid, legal or not, how is Barry escaping conviction going to convince anybody other than Bonds diehards that he wasn’t juicing and thus gaining an unfair advantage over players who stayed away from drugs? He is going to be just as reviled by Bonds haters as ever, perhaps even more so for escaping on a technicality. Most fans with no stake in this that I talk to find it impossible to believe he didn’t know he was getting something that you wouldn’t want publicly disclosed. To the average fan, he’s still compromised.
To the average fan, sure
The government is persecuting him for lying, not for taking steroids. They asked him if he took a steroid. If, at the time, it wasn’t considered a steroid, he didn’t lie.
Therefore, not guilty. He doesn’t even have to admit he took it.
That doesn’t change the morality of the matter, of course.
Since Using The "Clear" Was Neither Illegal Nor Against Baseball's Rules Prior To 2005 How Is Using The Clear Cheating?
Speaking about juicing goes what about all the “Red Juice” and greenies used in MLB since the late 50’s by the likes of Mays, Mantle, and Aaron? This juicing didn’t become illegal until 1973 (like the “Clear” did not become illegal until 2005) so did these guys cheat when they used them when they were both still legal and not against baseball’s rules? You can’t say Barry cheated by using the “Clear” and not say all these original juicers didn’t cheat too.
Today both steroids and stimulents are illegal and banned by baseball. Use of either today in baseball is considered by all to be cheating. But, you can not apply today’s rules (baseball’s or legal) to yesterday’s behavior. This is true for the use of stimulents in the past by the likes of Mays, Mantle, and Aaron and oh so many others and it is true for the use of the “clear” by Barry Bonds as well.
by giantsrainman on Jan 15, 2009 2:19 PM PST up reply actions
exactly
a lot people seem to forget that steroids not only were not illegal or against the rules, but weren’t even culturally taboo 10-15 years ago – no one considered it an “unfair” advantage anymore than an baseball player taking advantage of laser eye surgery or tommy john surgery or a vast number of scientific advancements that baseball players didn’t have 50 years ago
But then, when steroids suddenly became culturally taboo in our society, all the star players (who would have been stars anyway) are blamed for doing something wrong.
I call bullsh**
"Those boos really motivate me to make something happen." - Bonds
The thing is this:
As Giants fans, we’re tired of hearing everyone equating Barry to Satan incarnate for soiling the game, ruining the traditions of baseball, and other crap like that. At this point, we would like to see him walk free not because we think he was 100% innocent of taking steroids, but for the following reasons:
1) There is no good reason Congress should be spending the amount of time and money they have invested in this thus far. Just let baseball be baseball, and go back to protecting our country.
2) The debate of whether or not the steroids he is accused of taking actually give a player an advantage.
3) Everyone wants to condemn Barry, while numerous other players that have actually tested positive are not talked about by the media.
Yeah, it would be wrong if he purjured himself. But is it really that big of a deal that we should be spending $55 million to figure out if he did, when millions in this country are in poverty, Social Security will soon be illiquid, and millions are jobless?
So, we are happy mostly because the government is getting what is coming to them.
STEVE HOLM! refuses to be the odd man out.
by UnleashTheGore on Jan 15, 2009 4:19 PM PST up reply actions
point 2) should read:
The debate of whether or not the steroids he is accused of taking actually give a player an advantage is still a valid discussion.
STEVE HOLM! refuses to be the odd man out.
by UnleashTheGore on Jan 15, 2009 4:19 PM PST up reply actions
The money spent bothers me, but not as much as the media’s coverage:
It has gone from “OMG BARRY BONDS LIED TO A GRAND JURY ABOUT STEROIDS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!” plastered across front pages everywhere.
to
“yeah…ok, maybe he didn’t” buried behind a bunch of other offseason stories ….or not reported at all (ESPN has yet to say anything about this latest info)
by Lars The Wanderer on Jan 15, 2009 4:26 PM PST reply actions
TOO SEXY, TOO SEXY!
STEVE HOLM! refuses to be the odd man out.
by UnleashTheGore on Jan 15, 2009 5:00 PM PST up reply actions
If they can relate it to Brett Favre, the NBA, or Duke basketball, then maybe they’ll think about mentioning it.
by rightcenterfielder on Jan 15, 2009 5:15 PM PST up reply actions
Not Quite
Seems to me the new story is not “maybe he didn’t” but “maybe the Government is going to have a hard time proving it.” There’s going to be no way Barry can ever come up with the evidence to prove he didn’t lie. Fortunately for him he doesn’t have to.
by NearestNorwich on Jan 16, 2009 2:47 PM PST up reply actions
Asking or even expecting him to prove a negative is ridiculous.
by Lars The Wanderer on Jan 16, 2009 2:56 PM PST up reply actions
Also
My main point had to do with the coverage this latest bit of info is NOT receiving. ESPN still is refusing to report it.
by Lars The Wanderer on Jan 16, 2009 2:58 PM PST up reply actions
The story has always been the Government is going to have a hard time proving it. They never had a case. Now the story is “they knew he didn’t do anything illegal and spent $55 million of our money trying to get him and others to lie about doing something that was, in fact, legal.”
by Missing Barry on Jan 16, 2009 3:29 PM PST up reply actions
So let me get this straight …
1) yeah, yeah, so Bonds took steroids – but he didn’t do anything illegal
2) federal prosecutors (and Rep. Waxman & co.) knew Bonds didn’t do anything illegal
3) but these politicians knew that being strong against steroids was supposedly popular
4) so they tried to bait Bonds into committing perjury so that they could prosecute him anyway …
which now brings us to our latest news …
5) it was an epic fail
"Those boos really motivate me to make something happen." - Bonds
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Certain photos copyright © 2012 by Associated Press or Getty Images. Any commercial use or distribution without the express written consent of Associated Press and Getty Images is strictly prohibited.
