Hall of Fame Stuff
by Grant on Jan 12, 2009 1:30 PM PST
200 comments
I realized that I didn’t have set standards for the Hall of Fame when Kirby Puckett retired. I liked Kirby. Everyone liked Kirby. This was before the…unpleasantness that surfaced later, of course. But at the time, I thought, heck, if not Kirby, then who? But then I started to read compelling debates against him. He played ten seasons, seven of them in center, and was a fantastic hitter in all of them. His defense, though, wasn’t stellar, and his glaucoma-shortened career hurt his overall numbers.
I didn’t care. It was Kirby. Kirby!!! Big, pink puffball who won a World Series game with a home run. He was famous. They don’t have a Hall of Statistical Goodness *snort*. It’s the Hall of Fame, dammit.
Then I realized that argument could be made for every player. It’s Don Mattingly. Donnie Baseball! Never mind that he wasn’t much better than non-Hall first basemen like Cecil Cooper, John Olerud, or Wally Joyner. It was Don Mattingly! I was never convinced by that argument. If the pro-Mattingly faction added an extra exclamation point, maybe. Notice that Kirby had three, and that’s really what put him over the edge. Jim Rice, apparently, had at least two. It was Jim Rice!! He was feared!!
So I don’t have immutable Hall-of-Fame criteria. I rely heavily on statistics, but I’ll give an extra nudge if I really liked the player. Will Clark, say. And this is no different than anyone else, with the caveat that we’re all probably looking at different statistics. A majority of the voters are looking at wins for pitchers, RBI for hitters, and not giving a flying fornication about positional or era adjustments. I love these kinds of exchanges, though, and the yearly Hall of Fame votes are good for a few of them:
Stat Nerd: Well, then. Who are you voting for?
Person 1: Johnny Von Sluggerpants. He had a ton of homers and RBI.
Stat Nerd: But those are statistics. You’re forming an opinion based on recorded and collected data. How is that different?
Person 1: *unplugs Stat Nerd*
Here’s all I know:
- My opinion means more than your opinion.
- I am the final arbiter of intangibles and baseball coolness, which is why Robb Nen is an obvious choice and Don Mattingly is not a Hall-of-Famer. If anyone’s favors a player for the Hall and bases their opinion on something other than career stats, that opinion is incorrect. Unless I agree with the opinion, of course. Then the stat dorks need to keep their
lawsnumbersoff my bodyaway from the decision-making process! - People who do not vote for Tim Raines should be stripped of their U.S. citizenship, much less their BBWAA membership.
- I couldn’t care less about Jim Rice one way or the other.
- I’m a big Hall guy. Bobby Grich, Ron Santo, Lou Whitaker, and Darrell Evans? Sure. Climb aboard. Bert Blyleven? Heck, if MS Word doesn’t highlight his name as a misspelling, he has to be famous. Ergo, he’s in.
That’s about it. Open how-you-pick-your-own-personal-Hall-of-Famers-thread.
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I pick based on how much fear they created via DINGERs, and how scrappy they were!
by xanthan on Jan 12, 2009 1:31 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
/UPS kicks on
Sorry, I drank way too much coffee this afternoon and lost my head for a second.
by xanthan on Jan 12, 2009 1:40 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
This creates an interesting conundrum when Eckstein is up for election.
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realized God doesn’t work that way, so I stole one and prayed for forgiveness. - Emo Philips
Neglectful father of David Quinowski
by marcello on Jan 12, 2009 1:38 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Ecks – 2 WS rings, 1 WS MVP
Bonds – 0, 0
Ecks – Inner Circle
Bonds – Can watch the ceremony from his leather recliner
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realized God doesn’t work that way, so I stole one and prayed for forgiveness. - Emo Philips
Neglectful father of David Quinowski
by marcello on Jan 12, 2009 1:46 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Eckstein didn’t put stuff in his butt.
And if he did, it would have been in a really scrappy way.
We don't really have that much pitching depth. We don't really have that much pitching depth. FOR GOD SAKE, VERUCA, DON'T GO FAKE TRADING JONATHAN SANCHEZ. We don't really have that much pitching depth
by oldjacket on Jan 12, 2009 1:49 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Ecks would have taken it like a man.
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realized God doesn’t work that way, so I stole one and prayed for forgiveness. - Emo Philips
Neglectful father of David Quinowski
by marcello on Jan 12, 2009 1:51 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
If he put stuff in his butt while hustling = that’s scrap
by xanthan on Jan 12, 2009 1:54 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
You never know man.
He did go from years of 3 and 2 homers in his prime to 8 homers after his prime. I’d say that’s evidence to me.
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by WalrusMan on Jan 12, 2009 2:22 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I think a good formula for scrappiness would be something like:
(SH + SF + SB + HBP + BB’s) / PA * 100 = SF (Scrap Factor)
(81 + 33 + 112 + 125 + 310) / 4645*100 = 14.2% Scrap Factor
I need to figure out how to give a bonus for being white and below 6ft tall.
by xanthan on Jan 12, 2009 1:45 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I have this memory of someone putting together a scrappiness or grit quotient, but I can’t remember where.
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realized God doesn’t work that way, so I stole one and prayed for forgiveness. - Emo Philips
Neglectful father of David Quinowski
by marcello on Jan 12, 2009 1:50 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I should probably penalize hitters for HR’s or something? Because that’s not very scrappy. I think I need to weight the events more, too. Heavily weight bunt attempts! Or something.
by xanthan on Jan 12, 2009 1:51 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Absolutely
Groundouts that move the runner(s) over should count huge as well. Also, I’m not sure if BB’s should count as a positive event. It’s a selfish act after all.
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realized God doesn’t work that way, so I stole one and prayed for forgiveness. - Emo Philips
Neglectful father of David Quinowski
by marcello on Jan 12, 2009 2:07 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I feel like you should factor in how hard someone runs down to first on walks and routine grounders to the pitcher or second baseman.
We're all basically Pedro Feliz.
by SF Pete on Jan 12, 2009 2:10 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
That might be it.
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realized God doesn’t work that way, so I stole one and prayed for forgiveness. - Emo Philips
Neglectful father of David Quinowski
by marcello on Jan 13, 2009 7:32 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Pedroia
scrappy AND good
The 2008-2009 offseason is driving me sane!
by hairball on Jan 12, 2009 2:17 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
For the record, just so there's no misunderstanding
I hate that guy.
The 2008-2009 offseason is driving me sane!
by hairball on Jan 12, 2009 2:17 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
A very true statement
Giant Dirtbags: Brian Anderson, Todd Jennings, Steve Hammond, John Bowker
Jeremy Affeldt Ready To Make His Father Proud
by Giant among Angels on Jan 12, 2009 6:44 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Bonus for being white and below 6ft tall = 100% scrappiness.
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by WalrusMan on Jan 12, 2009 2:23 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Hey! I’m white (ish) and below 6 feet tall!
We don't really have that much pitching depth. We don't really have that much pitching depth. FOR GOD SAKE, VERUCA, DON'T GO FAKE TRADING JONATHAN SANCHEZ. We don't really have that much pitching depth
by oldjacket on Jan 12, 2009 2:26 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
And I’m even whiterish than you and also below 6 feet tall!
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Jan 12, 2009 2:34 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Oh yeah?
Well I’m practically a dwarf and you could go snowblind just from looking at me!
Adoptive father to the All-Father. Does that make me the All-Grandfather?
by EliminateMe on Jan 12, 2009 2:36 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Does being white and above 6 feet tall exclude me from being scrappy? Because that would suck.
I CAN BE AS SCRAPPY AS YOU SHORT GUYS!!
by Lars The Wanderer on Jan 12, 2009 6:02 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
What about being white and exactly 6 feet tall?
Never has a poster been more correct in the history of the internet. Ever! - ResDog on yours truly
by jcb9 on Jan 12, 2009 6:06 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
You’re not scrappy! By that definition, you’re practically a real athlete!
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Jan 12, 2009 6:34 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Wait
you just have to be above 6 feet tall to be an athlete? Why has Sabean not called me for a tryout?
by bondslegend on Jan 12, 2009 6:37 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I am under six feet tall, but not white. According to Joe Morgan, I’d probably be fundamentally sound and efficient.
by Natto on Jan 13, 2009 12:40 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Can you turn a TV into a watch?
..so allow me to present Tim Lincecum and Matt Cain as two sweet, sweet bottles of warming hooch.
by Cookyman on Jan 13, 2009 8:30 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Oh please, even I could do that.
Unless you mean a functional watch. Then we might have to leave to Natto.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Jan 13, 2009 9:25 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I can turn on a TV to watch.
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by WalrusMan on Jan 13, 2009 6:44 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Unfortunately..
I think that probably about 80% of the people here are dwarfs and so white people can go blind looking at us.
I’m aware there are non-Caucasians here. They’ve just adapted themselves to the dark basements they live in.
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by WalrusMan on Jan 13, 2009 6:43 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
That's very offensive
They don’t al live in dark basements! Many of them actually live in Unabomber-style shacks.
Never has a poster been more correct in the history of the internet. Ever! - ResDog on yours truly
by jcb9 on Jan 14, 2009 9:12 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
BB's
Scrapsters put the damn ball in play!
Plus the weight for HBP and sac bunt should be like 80. At least. Those are the ultimate examples of laying it all on the line for your team!
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
by baetown415 on Jan 12, 2009 2:38 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Hyperbole!
Raines, McGwire, Blyleven – Travesties
Rice – Travesty
Dawson – Eventual travesty
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realized God doesn’t work that way, so I stole one and prayed for forgiveness. - Emo Philips
Neglectful father of David Quinowski
by marcello on Jan 12, 2009 1:37 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Raines, McGwire, Blyleven – Travesties
Vote for them because of how they played baseball, not for how they dressed in women’s clothing.
by Grant on Jan 12, 2009 1:51 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I was trying to come up with a transvestites grouping, but sadly, Oscar de la Hoya never played baseball.
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realized God doesn’t work that way, so I stole one and prayed for forgiveness. - Emo Philips
Neglectful father of David Quinowski
by marcello on Jan 12, 2009 2:08 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Why...
did I read “Raines, McGwire, Blyleven – Transvestites”?
by scout6 on Jan 12, 2009 2:02 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
You're not the only one
We’re evidently a bunch of weirdos around here.
The 2008-2009 offseason is driving me sane!
by hairball on Jan 12, 2009 2:18 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
You just now noticed?
Adoptive father to the All-Father. Does that make me the All-Grandfather?
by EliminateMe on Jan 12, 2009 2:27 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
why, what does it say?
It's spelled "M-A-R-C-H-I-N-G-B-A-N-D."
I support inroywetrust in his support of The VD Special in his support of me supporting Roger Kieschnick in his quest to becoming the best Kieschnick ever to play professional baseball.
by Takimoto on Jan 12, 2009 2:34 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Groupthink?
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
by baetown415 on Jan 12, 2009 2:39 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm
really pissed that Blyleven isn’t in yet. That’s a fooking joke. It would be like if the Arizona Cardinals hosted an NFC championship gam…..
by bondslegend on Jan 12, 2009 6:38 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Why is Dawson an eventual travesty?
He’s on the borderline basically. You can make equally good cases for putting him in, or keeping him out.
His OBP is low, lower than league average. OTOH, he made up for that with D and baserunning and power.
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
by rfloh on Jan 12, 2009 8:15 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I would say he’s out personally, but that’s why I put Hyperbole! in the title. I don’t really think it’s a travesty.
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realized God doesn’t work that way, so I stole one and prayed for forgiveness. - Emo Philips
Neglectful father of David Quinowski
by marcello on Jan 12, 2009 9:33 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think that...
a bit above average defense will push someone over the top if their offense is just not enough.
The only players that would get into the hall for defense are if they won a gold glove just about every year they played and had at least average hitting stats.
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by WalrusMan on Jan 13, 2009 6:46 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Well it is not just the a bit above average defense
The case for Dawson is the defense at a difficult position, CF, for a number of years, 4 gold gloves. And then the defense in RF. And while Dawson’s OBP was slightly below average, his power was well above average. His OBP was 323, relative to a park adjusted league average of 332, true. However, his slugging was 482, relative to a park adjusted league average of 395. He was a plus baserunner.
Dawson did one thing below average: getting on base. At pretty much everything else, hitting for power, defense, baserunning, he was very good. Is that a HoFer? Perhaps. Perhaps not.
Taking position, defense, baserunning into consideration, Dawson really isn’t a worse player than someone like Paul Molitor. BPro has Dawson at 341 batting runs above average. Molitor, 414. This includes SBs and CS into the offense. Molitor spent most of his career at DH. Dawson played 54% of his innings at RF, and another 45% of those innings in CF. For some comparisons, they have Rice at 290 runs above average. Dwight Evans, 364. Bobby Bonds at 407.
FWIW, the guy who does the CHONE projection system has Dawson at 58.6 wins above replacement over his career, offense + defense. That is basically around the borderline for a deserving HoFer.
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
by rfloh on Jan 13, 2009 8:02 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I go to obscure baseball stat websites and find HOF debates about players where the threads last for 50 or more printed pages, include insults involving the terms “WARP” and “EQA”, and conclude with nothing being resolved or agreed upon. Then I just decide which players I enjoyed watching and invite them into my hall (That’s what she said!).
Kirby Puckett is a great example. I ignore his shortened career and highly disturbing post-retirement personal life and remember his enthusiasm, his scrappiness, his willing a not-so-talented Twins team to two World Series titles (with help from Jack Morris) and his autograph on the baseball that’s sitting in my bedroom.
My plans for 2009: getting married and attending Tim Lincecum Bobblehead Day.
by Kitspool on Jan 12, 2009 1:42 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
+1
I also would vote for Kirby based on his fatness, his winning WS, and the autograph he gave me after a Twins game in Minnesota…and then turning down my brother’s attempt at an autograph (bc the wristband he had given Kirby was already filled by Tony Oliva’s auto) and then quickly jumping into a cab (with a waiting woman who I assume was not his wife, according to newspaper articles). One cannot undervalue the worth of getting a baseball player’s autograph and having his brother denied said autograph within a 1 minute span. Utterly an amazing moment (I’m not such a bad brother any more, but I do like to put extra thoughts in parenthesis)
by Mrbasepaul on Jan 12, 2009 3:42 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Jim Rice over Tim Raines makes no sense. I get that every baseball writer has a man-crush on Jim Rice because he hit dingerz, but come one, Tim Raines was absolutely the best lead-off man of his generation who didn’t refer to himself as Ricky.
by cornball on Jan 12, 2009 2:00 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
believe it or not,
Ricki. Weird, huh.
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
by zenbitz on Jan 12, 2009 2:06 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
But he hit dingerz!!!
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by WalrusMan on Jan 12, 2009 2:24 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Actually it does make sense
Stolen bases, and length of career, are the only categories where Raines has a big advantage. With all that speed, you would expect Raines to have a big advantage in doubles and triples. But Rice averaged over 23 doubles a year to Raines’ 18. Both averaged about 5 triples a year. Rice tops Raines in all the power stats.
Greetings, Marklar! I am Marklar! This is Marklar.
by marklar on Jan 12, 2009 2:25 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Raines also has an OBP about 30 points higher, and struck out significantly less in significantly more at bats.
Never has a poster been more correct in the history of the internet. Ever! - ResDog on yours truly
by jcb9 on Jan 12, 2009 2:29 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
A big part of that is the role
you are asked to play in the batting order. Leading off you are asked to take a lot of pitches and get on base. Batting 3rd or 4th you are asked to put the ball in play and hit it hard. There are some managers that would be pissed if his clean-up hitter did not expand the stike zone a little to put the ball in play, took a walk instead.
Greetings, Marklar! I am Marklar! This is Marklar.
by marklar on Jan 12, 2009 2:36 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
And yet Barry Bonds drew a lot of walks and Rickey Henderson hit a lot of homers, but they were pretty good for their respective spots in the lineup.
Never has a poster been more correct in the history of the internet. Ever! - ResDog on yours truly
by jcb9 on Jan 12, 2009 2:39 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
This was a comparison between Raines and Rice.
It was in response to Raines is better than Rice comment. Plus, it isn’t fair to compare anyone to Barry Bonds; everyone comes up short. Henderson played for 9 more seasons than Rice and is still 85 HRs short of Rice’s career total. I bring that up only because Rice’s career was injury-shortened.
Greetings, Marklar! I am Marklar! This is Marklar.
by marklar on Jan 12, 2009 2:47 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
The point is
Home runs are good, walks are good, strike outs are bad. True, relative expectations for these stats vary depending on where you are in the lineup, but the basic rule still holds, and if you’re comparing two hitters, OBP and strike out rates are relevant. If those two categories shouldn’t count because Rice hit in the middle of the lineup and Raines was a leadoff guy, why was it relevant for you to mention that Raines had more stolen bases?
Never has a poster been more correct in the history of the internet. Ever! - ResDog on yours truly
by jcb9 on Jan 12, 2009 2:50 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I didn't say that strikeouts and OBP are irrelevant.
But I do believe that the position in the line-up needs to be considered and a certain weight applied for what a player is asked to do. Raines has 808 SBs. That is what he was asked what to do. His .385 OBP should be considered more than Rice’s OBP because Raines was asked to get on base, Rice was asked to drive in the guys that were on base.
I think Raines SBs and OBP is worth more considering him than those same stats are when considering Rice.
I think Raines is HOF worthy. But I don’t think Raines over Rice = no brainer is correct.
Greetings, Marklar! I am Marklar! This is Marklar.
by marklar on Jan 12, 2009 2:59 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Well, okay – but if the criteria is what players were asked to do based on their place in the lineup, then Tim Raines = one of the best leadoff hitters you’re ever going to fine, and Jim Rice = a very good middle of the lineup guy, but not even close to the best.
Never has a poster been more correct in the history of the internet. Ever! - ResDog on yours truly
by jcb9 on Jan 12, 2009 3:04 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I disagree
When Rice was playing, at least until the last few years of his career, there was nobody better in MLB in the middle of the order.
Greetings, Marklar! I am Marklar! This is Marklar.
by marklar on Jan 12, 2009 3:13 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
There were many players better than him. He was an entirely overrated hitter due to his home park.
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realized God doesn’t work that way, so I stole one and prayed for forgiveness. - Emo Philips
Neglectful father of David Quinowski
by marcello on Jan 12, 2009 3:17 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Name those
“…many better players…”
Greetings, Marklar! I am Marklar! This is Marklar.
by marklar on Jan 12, 2009 3:18 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Eddie Murray and Dave Winfield come to mind.
Never has a poster been more correct in the history of the internet. Ever! - ResDog on yours truly
by jcb9 on Jan 12, 2009 3:21 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
His teammate Fred Lynn as well.
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realized God doesn’t work that way, so I stole one and prayed for forgiveness. - Emo Philips
Neglectful father of David Quinowski
by marcello on Jan 12, 2009 3:24 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Reggie Jackson was pretty good, too.
Proud adopted parent of future big league slugger Thomas Neal
by nostocksjustbonds on Jan 12, 2009 3:27 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
He was drafted after Steve Chilcott – he couldn’t have been that good.
Never has a poster been more correct in the history of the internet. Ever! - ResDog on yours truly
by jcb9 on Jan 12, 2009 3:29 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
darn. I thought I could sneak that one by.
Proud adopted parent of future big league slugger Thomas Neal
by nostocksjustbonds on Jan 12, 2009 3:31 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Actually
Winfield and Rice’s stats are very similar. The only real difference is that Winfield padded his career totals with seven additional fair to good seasons that were less than HOF-caliber.
I do think Murray was better, but not enough to say it’s …not even close….
Greetings, Marklar! I am Marklar! This is Marklar.
by marklar on Jan 12, 2009 3:49 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Also, he finished in the top 5 in OPS+ just twice in his career, 1978 and 1979. Kinda weak for such a great hitter.
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realized God doesn’t work that way, so I stole one and prayed for forgiveness. - Emo Philips
Neglectful father of David Quinowski
by marcello on Jan 12, 2009 3:35 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
He finished in the top 5
of MVP voting 6 times (more than Jackson). His OPS was over .900 4 times.
Greetings, Marklar! I am Marklar! This is Marklar.
by marklar on Jan 12, 2009 3:52 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
MVP voting is stupid because it’s done by people who don’t know shit. That shouldn’t be a point.
OPS is a bad stat because it isn’t adjusted at all. OPS+ is nothing special, but it will do here.
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realized God doesn’t work that way, so I stole one and prayed for forgiveness. - Emo Philips
Neglectful father of David Quinowski
by marcello on Jan 12, 2009 4:06 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Amen to that
2 things that shouldn’t decide a player’s worth AT ALL:
MVPs and All-star appearances.
by bondslegend on Jan 12, 2009 7:06 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
But they do all the time.
And not just to people like the HOF voters.
Contracts are built around MVP votes or all-star appearances.
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by WalrusMan on Jan 13, 2009 6:47 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah
and that’s stupid. Same w/ pro bowl for football.
by bondslegend on Jan 13, 2009 7:22 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Mike Schmidt
Dwight Evans was a better hitter for a longer time.
We don't really have that much pitching depth. We don't really have that much pitching depth. FOR GOD SAKE, VERUCA, DON'T GO FAKE TRADING JONATHAN SANCHEZ. We don't really have that much pitching depth
by oldjacket on Jan 12, 2009 3:40 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I give up
This comment about Evans is absurb.
Greetings, Marklar! I am Marklar! This is Marklar.
by marklar on Jan 12, 2009 3:52 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
it is?
I think Rice’s peak seasons were better than Evans’s peak seasons (though Evans had some pretty awesome seasons) but Evans was still a pretty good hitter after Rice had retired, and Rice’s last two seasons were merely okay.
We don't really have that much pitching depth. We don't really have that much pitching depth. FOR GOD SAKE, VERUCA, DON'T GO FAKE TRADING JONATHAN SANCHEZ. We don't really have that much pitching depth
by oldjacket on Jan 12, 2009 3:58 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
The funny thing is, Rice was probably the 3rd best outfielder on his own team many years.
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realized God doesn’t work that way, so I stole one and prayed for forgiveness. - Emo Philips
Neglectful father of David Quinowski
by marcello on Jan 12, 2009 4:10 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Well, I think it’s fairer to say that he wasn’t consistently the best outfielder on the field when he was playing with Dewey and Lynn, which you would like to see from a HOFer.
I also don’t want to sound like I’m downplaying anything about Rice’s crazy good1977-1979, either. But what you do with the rest of your career matters too, otherwise Kevin Mitchell would be in the hall. (Not that I’m implying that the rest of Rice’s career was as bad as Mitchell’s).
We don't really have that much pitching depth. We don't really have that much pitching depth. FOR GOD SAKE, VERUCA, DON'T GO FAKE TRADING JONATHAN SANCHEZ. We don't really have that much pitching depth
by oldjacket on Jan 12, 2009 4:21 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Yup
Rice had 3 great years, and some pretty good other years.
However, in 1977, he was a DH, so there has to be some major discounting done there. In 1978, he was back in LF, but you’d have to figure out the defensive difference between him in LF and Lynn in CF to determine who was more valuable. No clue on this. In 1979 Lynn clearly had a better year at the plate while playing CF. So, even during those amazing three years, it isn’t clear that he was the best OF on his own team for any of them.
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realized God doesn’t work that way, so I stole one and prayed for forgiveness. - Emo Philips
Neglectful father of David Quinowski
by marcello on Jan 12, 2009 4:28 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
My favorite part of this is that at Age 35, as Rice (1 year younger) is clearly on his way out, Evans puts up a season equal to anything Rice did during his peak years, then still puts up two good years, followed by two okay ones after that.
I’m not mad that Jim Rice is a hall of famer, but I’m kinda irked that Evans isn’t.
We don't really have that much pitching depth. We don't really have that much pitching depth. FOR GOD SAKE, VERUCA, DON'T GO FAKE TRADING JONATHAN SANCHEZ. We don't really have that much pitching depth
by oldjacket on Jan 12, 2009 4:35 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
You're assessing a player then not on what he did
But on what you believe he could have done abstractly.
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
by rfloh on Jan 12, 2009 8:19 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
What about defense?
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
by baetown415 on Jan 12, 2009 2:40 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
we call those managers
“idiots”
and
“fire them”
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
by zenbitz on Jan 13, 2009 8:21 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Batting 3rd or 4th you are asked to put the ball in play and hit it hard.
Rice career OBP: .352.
Rice career OBP with the base empty: .344.
Rice didn’t draw many walks because he wasn’t good at drawing walks. Not because he hit cleanup and constantly had men on base, not because it was his job to drive in runs, not because BB’s were undervalued in the 70’s, or any of that stuff. He was just not good at drawing BB’s. It’s that simple.
..so allow me to present Tim Lincecum and Matt Cain as two sweet, sweet bottles of warming hooch.
by Cookyman on Jan 13, 2009 8:52 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Uhh, GIDP.
Rice had 315, in 9058 PAs. Raines, 142, in 10359 PAs.
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
by rfloh on Jan 12, 2009 8:18 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I am a cold hearted stat machine
Raines Y
McGwire Y
Blyleven Y
Trammell Y
Rice N
Dawson… N (but it’s close)
Will Clark? N, sorry.
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
by zenbitz on Jan 12, 2009 2:07 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Why would Dawson be closer than Rice?
Never has a poster been more correct in the history of the internet. Ever! - ResDog on yours truly
by jcb9 on Jan 12, 2009 2:30 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
defense.
home field
Pedro Feliz would look great in Dodger Blue.
by irwin on Jan 12, 2009 5:55 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Because of my age I tend to think of Dawson as a Cub
…and to forget how long he spent in Montreal.
Never has a poster been more correct in the history of the internet. Ever! - ResDog on yours truly
by jcb9 on Jan 12, 2009 6:00 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
And for what it’s worth, my own instinct is to prefer Dawson over Rice, too. I’m just not sure that’s justified by reality.
Never has a poster been more correct in the history of the internet. Ever! - ResDog on yours truly
by jcb9 on Jan 12, 2009 6:01 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Good centerfield defense (for six or seven years) vs. ehhh left field defense makes a ton of difference.
by Grant on Jan 12, 2009 9:05 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
grant wins
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
by zenbitz on Jan 13, 2009 8:23 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
oops
blyleven -YES.
if he was a yankee his whole career, he’d have 350 wins, 2 cy youngs, and be a hof’er 1st ballot. he played for the crappy twins….
by giantdonkey on Jan 12, 2009 9:39 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm for a big hall too.
My complaint with current voters is that the look at career totals. Having a career that lasts 23 seasons like Yastrzemski and Winfield is just plain lucky. Both Yaz and Winfield in their first 16 seasons have numbers very similar to Jim Rice’s. Yaz had a very product 17th year, but the finally 6 years are clearly not HOF caliber. Winfield padded his stats with an additional 7 seasons of fair to good, but not great, numbers.
There is no reason in the world why Blyleven is not in the HOF. He is 5th in K’s all-time, and will be in the top 10 in K’s for at least another decade or 2.
For Kirby though, playing only 10 seasons is tough. I would think 12 – 15 seasons with HOF stats in an injury-shortened career would be about minimum.
Greetings, Marklar! I am Marklar! This is Marklar.
by marklar on Jan 12, 2009 2:08 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
This is why I sort of like Jay Jaffe’s JAWS system. It looks at both peak and career value and averages them. I don’t really know if it’s the best way, but it’s a bit better than just looking at career value. Although, it is based on WARP, so it has some inherent flaws:
1) Replacement level is jacked in WARP, although this has supposedly been fixed for the upcoming year.
2) BP’s fielding metrics aren’t any good. I don’t know if these are being fixed, I believe they are.
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realized God doesn’t work that way, so I stole one and prayed for forgiveness. - Emo Philips
Neglectful father of David Quinowski
by marcello on Jan 12, 2009 2:15 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Nothing I've read from Jay Jaffe indicates that
he has much of problem with FRAA and how it evaluates D. From the articles I’ve read from him, only FRAA is used in JAWS. Secondly, when he makes evaluations when writing articles, while he might consider a metric like Dan Fox SFR, or one of the PBP metrics, he still gives more importance to FRAA.
BP does have better fielding metrics. Dan Fox’ SFR. For whatever reason, possibly because he is now working for the Pirates, other than Christina Kahrl, most of their writers seem to ignore it.
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
by rfloh on Jan 12, 2009 8:29 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Recently they have seemed to change that. I see them referencing +/- and UZR more often. I believe I read that they were going to be updating their fielding metrics this offseason to be PBP based, but I can’t remember for sure.
Anyways, I like the approach he takes, not the flawed metrics he uses (which hopefully should be improved/fixed soon).
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realized God doesn’t work that way, so I stole one and prayed for forgiveness. - Emo Philips
Neglectful father of David Quinowski
by marcello on Jan 12, 2009 9:36 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
But if that's true...
…then why isn’t Blyleven in the Hall? Blyleven is one of the guys who would benefit from voters looking at career totals. Those 3701 K’s came over a 22 year career, and he only led the league in strikeouts once.
Adoptive father to the All-Father. Does that make me the All-Grandfather?
by EliminateMe on Jan 12, 2009 2:34 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
You are correct in pointing out
the inconsistency of my argument. That said, I don’t think career totals should be thrown out all together. And I think it is different for pitchers and Ks. After all, no one controls what happens in a game more than a pitcher when he strikes out a batter. Career totals on Ks for pitchers should carry more weigh that career RBI for a hitter.
Greetings, Marklar! I am Marklar! This is Marklar.
by marklar on Jan 12, 2009 2:41 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, having a (very) long career is just plain luck
Is Andruw Jones a HOF by your standards? Since he’s “unlucky” for being a fat lazy slob.
Compare Jim Rice’s career with that of Bobby Bonds. Don’t forget defense and baserunning while you are doing so.
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
by rfloh on Jan 12, 2009 8:25 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Cap the total # of HOFers at 500
Every time you want to add someone after that, you have to kick someone out. You thought there was debate before…
Hector Sanchez: really getting tired of playing baseball in foreign countries...
by tedfordfan on Jan 12, 2009 2:37 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
If you’re going to cap it, which I find to be an interesting idea, you would need to cap it based off a percentage of total players in the history of the game. Otherwise, the pool will be way too big to select from at some point.
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realized God doesn’t work that way, so I stole one and prayed for forgiveness. - Emo Philips
Neglectful father of David Quinowski
by marcello on Jan 12, 2009 2:42 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
This
And this is a great idea -
by FairweatherFan on Jan 12, 2009 2:43 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
That is a pretty interesting idea. Not sure if I like it or not, but it’s very interesting.
by chilibean_3 on Jan 12, 2009 2:56 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t know, I like an always expanding-hall, so in like 2200 we will have a bigass Cooperstown for our kids’ kids’ kids’ kids’ kids’ kids’ kids’…and they can say, hey, who was this Rickey Henderson guy and wow, so people used to grow up in Oakland and be successful?!?!? Actually, that’d be a cool thread, name cool people from Oakland
by Mrbasepaul on Jan 12, 2009 3:47 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
A lot of this Jim Rice hate has to be because he played in Boston.
I expect there would be rejoicing on this blog had Rice been a Giant, and I’d likewise expect a lot more hate for Raines had he been a Dodger.
Greetings, Marklar! I am Marklar! This is Marklar.
by marklar on Jan 12, 2009 2:49 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Nah
My Jim Rice “hate” = acknowledgment of the way his home park helped him tremendously + Rice’s bad defense + not many contributions from his baserunning/basestealing
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
by baetown415 on Jan 12, 2009 2:54 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Actually
I take back what I said about Rice’s defense. That still doesn’t make him Hall-caliber though (or it shouldn’t have anyway).
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
by baetown415 on Jan 12, 2009 2:59 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
The truth is that Fenway hurt him more than it helped.
I went to school in Boston and saw many games at Fenway. Rice was a line-drive hitter. He crushed balls that ended up as singles on a regular basis. He would have gotten a lot more help had he been a flyball hitter. He was not a bad baserunner until knee problems slowed him down. He was good for 8 to 10 SBs a season. He had 15 triples in 1977, and another 15 in ’78.
Greetings, Marklar! I am Marklar! This is Marklar.
by marklar on Jan 12, 2009 3:09 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
This is false
Rice was much better at home than you would expect from just the home field advantage. Fenway helped him out tremendously.
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realized God doesn’t work that way, so I stole one and prayed for forgiveness. - Emo Philips
Neglectful father of David Quinowski
by marcello on Jan 12, 2009 3:20 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Only for BA
not for power. This is the problem with stats. I saw him play every day for 10 years.
Greetings, Marklar! I am Marklar! This is Marklar.
by marklar on Jan 12, 2009 3:54 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I understand this type of argument
But I also think it’s silly. You can say that about any player – I could say that, because I saw Marvin Benard play day in and out for years, I KNOW he’s a Hall of Fame caliber player even though the numbers don’t show it.
Having that kind of connection to a player is great – it’s a big part of what makes baseball so great. But having that kind of connection doesn’t help you to objectively analyze a player’s worth, because it makes you less objective, not more.
Never has a poster been more correct in the history of the internet. Ever! - ResDog on yours truly
by jcb9 on Jan 12, 2009 3:59 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think you do,
since you have skewed the argument. No one ever said Marvin Benard is a HOFer, while many people believe Rice is. Still, what I did learn watching Marvin play everyday was that he sucked at CF and leading off. The stastics did not reflect how badly he did suck, and watching him was the best way to understand that.
It is silly to think you can truly evaluate a player purely on stats. There are too many variables that cannot be quantified. The best way, is to see him play day after day. When I watched Rice play there was no doubt in my mind that he was HOF caliber. I did not feel anything like that watching Dwight Evans or Fred Lynn, or anyone else on the Red Sox, except for Clemens and Yaz.
Greetings, Marklar! I am Marklar! This is Marklar.
by marklar on Jan 12, 2009 4:20 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I saw Will Clark play every day from 1986-1993, and there was no doubt in my mind that he was HOF caliber. But here we are.
Never has a poster been more correct in the history of the internet. Ever! - ResDog on yours truly
by jcb9 on Jan 12, 2009 4:26 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
he is HOF caliber
Proud adopted parent of future big league slugger Thomas Neal
by nostocksjustbonds on Jan 12, 2009 4:41 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Wait...
HOFcaliber?
Now you’re edging into a qualitative/quantitative discussion.
If a player puts up KILLER numbers for a few years but flames out early – Steve Avery comes to mind – can we say he was of HOF caliber?
Hell , Mike Benjamin. Three days.
Who has the fun?
Is it always the man with the gun?
- The Stranglers
by victor frankenstein on Jan 12, 2009 6:41 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
There is a big difference
between seeing a young player like Clark that you think has a chance for a HOF career and one that you think is. I thought the former about Clark, and many others, but the latter only about a few. Other than a few exceptions, I have not been off much in my assessments.
Greetings, Marklar! I am Marklar! This is Marklar.
by marklar on Jan 12, 2009 5:04 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
No, he's not.
I'm adopting a true Giant and an awe-inspring gamer: tk. "Atta babe."
by Mayor of 311 on Jan 12, 2009 5:04 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
You do realize the stats are just a summary of what actually happened, right? Like this actually happened – Jim Rice .320/.374/.546 at home .277/.330/.459 away. Rice was obviously a good hitter, but nowhere near HoF calibur if Fenway hadn’t inflated his stats the way it did.
by Missing Barry on Jan 12, 2009 4:30 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
The best way, is to see him play day after day.
No it’s not, feelings get in the way that have no basis in reality. Unless you are a scout, then maybe it is, but you would still need to supplement your observations with his actual stats.
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realized God doesn’t work that way, so I stole one and prayed for forgiveness. - Emo Philips
Neglectful father of David Quinowski
by marcello on Jan 12, 2009 4:30 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
*unplugs marcello*
We don't really have that much pitching depth. We don't really have that much pitching depth. FOR GOD SAKE, VERUCA, DON'T GO FAKE TRADING JONATHAN SANCHEZ. We don't really have that much pitching depth
by oldjacket on Jan 12, 2009 4:37 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Numbers alone are simply inadequate.
All of those road stats, with all the variables cannot be lumped in together and be insightful. I looked at Rice’s numbers on the road in stadiums where he had a minimum of 280 ABs. Clearly, some parks gave him big trouble, Chicago Comisky, KC Kaufman and Milwaukee County, where he hit one HR for every 37, 54, and 44 ABs respectively. At other parks he hit about what he hit at home, in Baltimore – 1/21 ABs, Cleveland -1/19ABs, and Detroit -1/21ABs. . He hit a HR for every 19.5 ABs at Fenway. He also hit 1 in every 16 ABs in Toronto and 1 in less than every 13 ABs in NY.
It is similar to the argument that Babe Ruth was greater than everyone thinks because he hit so many homers on the road. Meaninig that the short porch in right was not a factor. People who say that never looked at the stadiums that Ruth played in on the road. All but 2 of the road stadiums he played in had very short RFs. You have look beyond the numbers; they don’t, and never will tell the whole story.
Greetings, Marklar! I am Marklar! This is Marklar.
by marklar on Jan 12, 2009 4:59 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
You’re using statistics to argue that statistics aren’t a good way to construct an argument.
Never has a poster been more correct in the history of the internet. Ever! - ResDog on yours truly
by jcb9 on Jan 12, 2009 5:00 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
WIN
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realized God doesn’t work that way, so I stole one and prayed for forgiveness. - Emo Philips
Neglectful father of David Quinowski
by marcello on Jan 12, 2009 5:21 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Take a stats class and maybe you’ll understand the argument a bit more. Road stats are a lot more representative of hitting in a league average ballpark than home stats are for a player like Rice that plays in such a hitter friendly park (or Rockies/Rangers players nowadays). And 700 PA’s in a particular park are a lot less influential on a players career stats (of 10,000+ PA’s) than the 5500 home PA’s Rice had at Fenway.
by Missing Barry on Jan 12, 2009 5:11 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Stats are not reality; they are ONE way of DESCRIBING some realities
I am not anti-stats, but I’m also not anti-observation. Both are important. Further, each is necessary to understand the other. You’re right that subjectivity enters into pure observation, but it is no less subjective to believe that ThisStat is more telling or important than ThatStat. A statistic is an argument that X represents reality, and that purported reality is significant.
I think the folks who are strong on stats start thinking that it represents some sort of Truth, capital ‘T’. They don’t. They’re great and they’re important and they help us organize what we’re seeing, but they are still just a way of organizing and sorting our observations of reality, not Truth unto themselves.
I'm adopting a true Giant and an awe-inspring gamer: tk. "Atta babe."
by Mayor of 311 on Jan 12, 2009 5:11 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes and no. When looking at a players body of work, we are not interested in a sample statistic to estimate the population (which would be a players “true” ability), but rather we are looking at summary statistics. These are actual facts about what happened, and our offensive stats these days have evolved to a point where we can explain almost everything a player contributed on offense (at least at the plate) – when looking backwards.
Forecasting and player evaluation for the future is entirely different, and certainly observation plays a huge part in this, so I agree with you that both sides are important. And I also agree on the subjectivity of choosing which stats to use in an argument like this – obviously there is no clear definition of a Hall of Fame career, and everyone has to make their own judgement as to what qualifies as one, and who is worthy based on the facts at hand.
by Missing Barry on Jan 12, 2009 7:33 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, for power too. His ISO at home was .226, on the road it was .182. Fenway helped him out tremendously.
You have zero objectivity in this argument. You saw him play, you loved him, that’s fine. His numbers (what he actually did) aren’t Hall worthy. There is no problem with stats, you just have to use them right.
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realized God doesn’t work that way, so I stole one and prayed for forgiveness. - Emo Philips
Neglectful father of David Quinowski
by marcello on Jan 12, 2009 4:14 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, for power too. His ISO at home was .226, on the road it was .182. Fenway helped him out tremendously.
Objective observer here. I couldn’t care less. Really. I even wrote as much on my Peabody-nominated blog.
But did Fenway help all hitters as much as it did Rice? Because if it didn’t, I wouldn’t downgrade Rice’s home numbers as significantly.
Just curious…
by Grant on Jan 12, 2009 5:10 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
No clue. I’d imagine they helped all hitters, but I don’t know how much.
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realized God doesn’t work that way, so I stole one and prayed for forgiveness. - Emo Philips
Neglectful father of David Quinowski
by marcello on Jan 12, 2009 5:56 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
too much effort to look up, and i’m too lazy…anyone know if there are historical park adjustment numbers up online anywhere?
by Missing Barry on Jan 12, 2009 6:38 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
BB-Ref has PF’s for most years, I think.
Fenway PF’s for Jim Rice’s career:
Year - single/multi 1974 - 107/108 1975 - 110/110 1976 - 111/113 1977 - 118/113 1978 - 109/112 1979 - 108/106 1980 - 102/106 1981 - 107/107 1982 - 111/107 1983 - 101/107 1984 - 110/105 1985 - 104/104 1986 - 99/101 1987 - 99/103 1988 - 109/105 1989 - 106/107
The first number is a single-year factor and the second number is a mutli-year factor. A score of 100 indicates a neutral park. You can see that from 1975-1978 Fenway played nearly 10% above league for scoring. It tapered off some by the early-80’s but was still considered a good park for hitters.
It wasn’t Coors Field — which was scoring in the 120’s in it’s prime — but it was a good place to hit. Especially if you were right-handed, as was Rice.
by xanthan on Jan 12, 2009 7:13 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
thanks, can you post a link so i can find it in the future?
by Missing Barry on Jan 12, 2009 7:34 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
It's on each team's page
For example, Oakland (see the column on the far right)
http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/OAK/attend.shtml
Can't get enough of the Oakland A's? Visit Oaktown Awesomer's
by iamawesomer on Jan 12, 2009 11:27 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Jim Rice is just the proxy in a battle over evaluation criteria in baseball circles between the newer stat oriented thinkers and the old-schoolers.
Also, I think part of it is that there has been a big media blitz the last few years to get Rice elected, and he probably wouldn’t have had that much support if he put up those same numbers playing his entire career in Milwaukee. So, as much as him being a Boston guy hurts him, it certainly helped him get into the Hall of Fame.
Proud adopted parent of future big league slugger Thomas Neal
by nostocksjustbonds on Jan 12, 2009 3:21 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
My 2009 ballot
Yes
Rickey Henderson – obvious choice.
Bert Blyleven – top 10 in ERA+ 12 times and #5 all time in k’s.
Lee Smith – I’m a proponent of closers getting in, and this guy was one of the best for a long time.
Mark McGwire – 500+ homers = hall of fame, imo.
Alan Trammell – good offensive and defensive SS.
Tim Raines – very good player. Great leadoff man, but unlike Rickey, he stopped stealing bases (at a high clip) after his age 32 season.
Bubble guys – I’m willing to be swayed either way:
Leaning yes:
Andre Dawson – power/speed combo + Defense helps me overlook bad on base skills
Harold Baines - very good hitter for a very long time. No defense, but the DH is a legitimate position in the major leagues, so I won’t hold it against him.
Dave Parker –Great arm when an OF. Same boat as Baines.
Coin Toss:
David Cone – I need to look closer at his numbers.
Leaning No:
Jim Rice – don’t have a huge problem with him getting in, but think some of the others should go in first.
Tommy John – long career, but I wouldn’t vote Jamie Moyer in either.
Jack Morris – a couple good post-season games isn’t enough for me, though he had a very nice career.
Sorry – Definitely not Hall of Famers:
Dale Murphy – in the Hall of Fame of Giant Killers, though.
Don Mattingly
Mark Grace – good hitter, very good fielder.
Matt Williams – .317 career OBP? Wow. My memories fail me on that one.
Mo Vaughn
Jay Bell
Jesse Orosco
Ron Gant
Dan Plesac
Greg Vaughn
Guys not on the 2009 Ballot that should be and I’d probably write-in:
Will Clark
Robb Nen
Proud adopted parent of future big league slugger Thomas Neal
by nostocksjustbonds on Jan 12, 2009 3:14 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
I love your list. Being a Small Hall guy only the "Yes" category counts to me though. The next group goes into the "Hall of very very Good". Only differences I see is I would drop Big Mac down by Cone and Morris. I would place Dwight Evens and Dawson in the "Yes" camp. Dawson is on the edge for me. The grumpier I feel the smaller my hall gets. This morning the coffee is bad and I am grumpier then usual.
Well and Rice. But I am in the minority here. I don’t mind Rice getting in. I don’t think he was the most deserving of the current crop but thats small potatoes for me.
Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!
Here comes Captain Obvious wearing his Atomic Wedgie!
by daveinexile on Jan 13, 2009 10:11 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm confused.
Grant wants abortion in the HoF?
D&E FTW.
Tyler Walker, my son, it's time you left the nest. No seriously. Go.
by multiphasic on Jan 12, 2009 3:34 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
No he wants miniature American flags in the HOF
"While conservatives tell you 'leave things alone and no one will lose,' and liberals tell you 'interfere a lot and no one will lose,' baseball says 'someone will lose.' Not only says it - but insists upon it! ... Democracy is lovely, but baseball's more mature." BVCE supports SF Dugout and Manny Burriss.
by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Jan 12, 2009 9:55 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Who's the next Giants player to be a HOF candidate?
(Besides Bonds?)
by Mrbasepaul on Jan 12, 2009 3:48 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
/cries and flies into vengeful rage
We don't really have that much pitching depth. We don't really have that much pitching depth. FOR GOD SAKE, VERUCA, DON'T GO FAKE TRADING JONATHAN SANCHEZ. We don't really have that much pitching depth
by oldjacket on Jan 12, 2009 4:09 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Unfortunately
I would have to say Jeff Kent.
This is less funny than Grant’s answer.
by taliesin on Jan 12, 2009 3:51 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Or Randy Johnson.
Never has a poster been more correct in the history of the internet. Ever! - ResDog on yours truly
by jcb9 on Jan 12, 2009 3:52 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
yes. and since 2001 the HOF has decided which cap appears on the player’s HOF cap. I believe that Kent will wear a Giants cap when he enters the Hall of Fame.
ALSO, imagine that Kent retires now and is eligible for the HOF in 2014. Also, imagine that Bonds, who is eligible (assuming he doesn’t play again, which is likely) is punished by the voters on the first ballot, but gets in on the 2nd ballot. Kent and Bonds could both go in at in 2014.
Now maybe Kent isn’t a “first-ballot” guy, but I think he is.
I also think that as time goes by and we just remember Kent as the great player he was, we’ll remember him more for the way he played for the Giants and not as much, the jerk.
Proud adopted parent of future big league slugger Thomas Neal
by nostocksjustbonds on Jan 12, 2009 4:52 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I didn’t know that the Hall chooses which hat the player wears.
You’re right about Kent. He’ll be a first or second ballot HOFer, but I can’t imagine enough writers really punishing Bonds, who regardless of the steroids issue was obviously such a better player than his peers that when you look back at his numbers, it looks fake.
How about Omar?
by Mrbasepaul on Jan 12, 2009 6:41 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I wish I could agree with you…but McGwire’s vote totals aren’t making me overly optimistic for Barry, though obviously Barry has a much better case than McGwire.
by Missing Barry on Jan 12, 2009 7:24 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
The Hall of Fame is going to become a joke soon. Jeff Kent is virtually a lock to get in, and Barry’s going to watch Kent get into the Hall while the writers snub the greatest player since Willie Mays. Choices like Rice show how uninformed many writers still are, you don’t even have to get into “fancy” stats to show it, either. Say what you want about whether you think Fenway hurt or helped him, but look at the splits. .320/.374/.546 at home, .277/.330/.459 away, in 4507 and 4551 PA’s, respectively. Keep in mind those are actual plate appearances, in real games, played on a real field. Fenway hugely inflated his stats, and considering he doesn’t do anything other than hit, there is no real case for him.
by Missing Barry on Jan 12, 2009 4:25 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
i agree
I was so sick listening to Bruce Jenkins on the radio this morning talking about how he voted for Jack Morris and not Blyleven because he the “feel” factor. He, apparently, didn’t think feel like Blyleven was considered a HOF’er by the general public in his playing days(or some bullshit like that). People like him should not be allowed a vote.
by superk1ng on Jan 12, 2009 4:35 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
The problem is, I think arguments like that have some merit…if used intelligently. Something like that or the “Jim Rice was the ‘most feared’ hitter” is made up and means nothing – unless supported by actual facts like: in a 10 year span from 77-86 he went to 8 all-star games, in a 5 year stretch from 75-79 he finished in the top 5 in MVP voting 4 years, and finished in the top 5 two more years after that (whiling winning one in ’78). Unfortunately a large amount of writers choose to ignore actual facts for…I dunno, whatever writers value.
*Note – Ultimately Jim Rice’s candidacy comes up short because of his lack of anything but hitting, and how much his hitting was inflated by Fenway.
by Missing Barry on Jan 12, 2009 4:41 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
So you're saying
You wouldn’t elect Rice to the Hall of Home/Road Splits?
by Sabertooth on Jan 12, 2009 5:42 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Jenkins is a moron
When the Chron goes bust I hope they do a man on the street type thing, where I can say I’m not sorry because I hated hearing Jenkins act like he knew anything about baseball.
I’ve actually had a Chron writer admit to me he thought Jenkins was an idiot.
by Bitter Fan on Jan 13, 2009 10:06 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I’ve actually had a Chron writer admit to me he thought Jenkins was an idiot.
I think we can rule out current TV critic and former music critic Tim Goodman.
by 2X2L on Jan 15, 2009 3:14 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Big Hall
Okay, first off, one of the writers truly thought Jesse Orosco deserved to be a Hall of Famer? Get real! Nothing against Jesse Orosco personally, but come on.
Next year, I would vote for Dawson, Blyleven, Raines, and McGwire (along with first-time-eligible Roberto Alomar) . Hopefully Tommy John is recognized by the veterans committee: not only for the wins, but for his role in pioneering a “radical” surgery that is now mainstream.
Congratulations to Rickey Henderson and “Pitchers pay the price when the face” Jim Rice. Although in my book, Rice was right on the bubble. I’m glad he got in, though— baseball should not be so stingy when celebrating their heroes with Cooperstown admission. That being said, if Jim Rice is a HOF player, then “bubble guys” like Trammell, Morriss, and Smith, and maybe even Murphy should also get the nod.
Noah Lowry?
by Kid Fresh on Jan 12, 2009 6:35 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
I agree with just about everything you wrote, right down to Dale Murphy.
by Grant on Jan 12, 2009 9:07 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I voted for Orosco
I’m kidding. I love the guy for being the old dude who was always throwing as I grew up. When he finally retired I was sad. But yeah no, he’s no HOFer. Sorry.
"While conservatives tell you 'leave things alone and no one will lose,' and liberals tell you 'interfere a lot and no one will lose,' baseball says 'someone will lose.' Not only says it - but insists upon it! ... Democracy is lovely, but baseball's more mature." BVCE supports SF Dugout and Manny Burriss.
by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Jan 12, 2009 9:49 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I would vote for Orosco
Orosco is famous… for being old. That guy struck out Tris Speaker with the game on the line.
Brian Sabean is akin to a treatable form of cancer... just get rid of it before it kills you
by milesntrane on Jan 13, 2009 12:41 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
“But yeah no,…”
I’ve never seen that in print before.
Who has the fun?
Is it always the man with the gun?
- The Stranglers
by victor frankenstein on Jan 13, 2009 3:39 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I say it quite a bit. I know that’s not the same as putting it in print, but yeah, no. :p
"While conservatives tell you 'leave things alone and no one will lose,' and liberals tell you 'interfere a lot and no one will lose,' baseball says 'someone will lose.' Not only says it - but insists upon it! ... Democracy is lovely, but baseball's more mature." BVCE supports SF Dugout and Manny Burriss.
by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Jan 13, 2009 11:08 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Similarly, I’ve been known to say, “I usually always…”
Never has a poster been more correct in the history of the internet. Ever! - ResDog on yours truly
by jcb9 on Jan 14, 2009 9:13 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Technically that’s never wrong most of the time.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Jan 14, 2009 10:36 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
You wouldn’t vote Larkin???
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on Jan 13, 2009 5:55 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
The only thing I can think of..
Is that some writers send in blank ballots while some writers fill in every single player, just to protest the hall being too big or too small, or just to be idiots.
The Basil Fawlty Moderating Strategy:
"We could run a nice blog here if we didn't have all these members getting in the way."
by WalrusMan on Jan 13, 2009 7:02 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Bubble's No More
Insted of a Hall of Fame we need a Sanctum of Fame. Let the Jim Rice’s reside in the Hall and admit the Ricky, Babe and Willie’s into the Sanctum.
by daniel9 on Jan 12, 2009 7:44 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Jay Bell...
… got two HOF votes, one by Barry’s BFF Pedro Gomez.
That’s an outrage. Even Grant’s lax standards wouldn’t have Bell in the Hall.
808-KNBR, your thoughts…
by Ed Jew on Jan 12, 2009 8:56 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Gomez
can srsly go fuck himself. He doesn’t vote for Blyleven, but votes for JAY BELL?
And we’re supposed to take anything he says about baseball seriously?
by bondslegend on Jan 12, 2009 9:35 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Some asshole on MLB Network didn't vote for Blyleven either
Jon Heyman I think. He’s so awful. He was blah-blahing about how it’s not about stats, but then faulted Blyleven for only winning 17 games in a season one time. Which I don’t even think is correct.
We know the argument to include Bert in the HOF of course. I’m just agog at the complete stupidity of some of these people. They have jobs in the business, and I don’t. I can’t possibly be worse than they are, unless one of you wants to perform a lobotomy on me.
"While conservatives tell you 'leave things alone and no one will lose,' and liberals tell you 'interfere a lot and no one will lose,' baseball says 'someone will lose.' Not only says it - but insists upon it! ... Democracy is lovely, but baseball's more mature." BVCE supports SF Dugout and Manny Burriss.
by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Jan 12, 2009 9:54 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Heyman did say he would vote for both Bonds and Clemens. So he’ll be one of a few who will since neither will get enough votes to get in.
A McC newcomer but not outstanding.
by SFGuy on Jan 13, 2009 12:35 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Lee Smith Lee Smith Lee Smith
The closers are getting voted in—Gossage and Sutter were the latest additions. Many people say Rivera and Hoffman are locks once they’re eligible. Without Lee Smith, there is no Hoffman or Rivera. And never mind the guy held the all time saves record for a very long time until Hoffman broke it a few years ago.
"While conservatives tell you 'leave things alone and no one will lose,' and liberals tell you 'interfere a lot and no one will lose,' baseball says 'someone will lose.' Not only says it - but insists upon it! ... Democracy is lovely, but baseball's more mature." BVCE supports SF Dugout and Manny Burriss.
by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Jan 12, 2009 9:48 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Preach it Sister!!
Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!
Here comes Captain Obvious wearing his Atomic Wedgie!
by daveinexile on Jan 13, 2009 10:14 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I write a manifesto on Lee Smith’s case for the HOF last season for SF Dugout (hint). I need to print it onto a flier and hand it out.
"While conservatives tell you 'leave things alone and no one will lose,' and liberals tell you 'interfere a lot and no one will lose,' baseball says 'someone will lose.' Not only says it - but insists upon it! ... Democracy is lovely, but baseball's more mature." BVCE supports SF Dugout and Manny Burriss.
by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Jan 13, 2009 11:11 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
2013 is gonna be a year
The first year of eligibility for the following: Craig Biggio, Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, Mike Piazza, Curt Schilling, and Sammy Sosa. That’s six votes out of ten possible for several voters.
"While conservatives tell you 'leave things alone and no one will lose,' and liberals tell you 'interfere a lot and no one will lose,' baseball says 'someone will lose.' Not only says it - but insists upon it! ... Democracy is lovely, but baseball's more mature." BVCE supports SF Dugout and Manny Burriss.
by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Jan 12, 2009 9:52 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
If Big Mac continues to make little progress
Sammy has no fucking shot. I think Clemens and Bonds won’t be first timers (I personally think it’s a crock of shit but that’s just how I feel the writers will end up going). Schilling I’m sure hasn’t made many friends in the journalist business.
Piazza and Biggio are the only two locks from that group, and I think Biggio will actually outvote Piazza based on stupid things like scrappiness and such (look at me I get hit by pitches all day), even though Piazza has an career 142 OPS+ as a catcher (wtf). Though goddamn Piazza couldn’t throw out anyone, 155:34 SB:CS (18%) in 1996 lol.
Can't get enough of the Oakland A's? Visit Oaktown Awesomer's
by iamawesomer on Jan 12, 2009 11:41 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
HOLY SHYTEOMG
Piazza’s career OPS+ was 142???
I knew he was one of the best-hitting catchers ever, but WOW
by bondslegend on Jan 13, 2009 1:03 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Crazy
That 28 voters did not vote for Rickey. Did they have a 20+ year blackout? That says a lot about the people who vote for this thing.
Giant Dirtbags: Brian Anderson, Todd Jennings, Steve Hammond, John Bowker
Jeremy Affeldt Ready To Make His Father Proud
by Giant among Angels on Jan 12, 2009 10:04 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
DER
BABE RUTH WUZNT UNANIMOUS SO NEITHER IS RICKY DERR IM OLD AND A TOTAL FUCKTARD
These guys need to get over themselves and just do what’s actually right for the game. Assholes.
by bondslegend on Jan 13, 2009 1:04 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Well, what’s right for the game is that Rickey goes to the Hall. Since his election not being unanimous doesn’t slow him down at all, I don’t really see how anyone has hurt the game of baseball by not voting for him.
Adoptive father to the All-Father. Does that make me the All-Grandfather?
by EliminateMe on Jan 13, 2009 11:43 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
By not voting for him, could they have theoretically used that vote on somebody else who shouldn’t have gotten it?
I’m kind of naive about the HOF voting process, so I don’t know exactly this works.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Jan 13, 2009 12:42 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
They can vote for up to 10 players
My impression is that few voters actually vote all 10, though. The 11 ESPN voters linked above ranged from a low of 2 to a high of 9 (Tim Kurkjian). But still, it’s possible that someone had 11 candidates they wanted to vote for, and figured they could skip Rickey since he’d get in fine anyway…
Adoptive father to the All-Father. Does that make me the All-Grandfather?
by EliminateMe on Jan 13, 2009 12:56 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I guarantee you
that’s not what happened. Deadspin had a story about one of the old curmudgeons who didn’t vote for him, then blamed his not voting for him on “forgetting how many votes he had”. Right.
It’s not that anyone’s hurt by it, but it’s just stupid that someone wouldn’t vote for such an obvious hall-of-famer because they’ve got some sort of point to prove. Meh.
by bondslegend on Jan 13, 2009 2:50 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, theoretically
Voters can vote for up to 10 players. So, if they had 11 guys they wanted to vote for, they could leave off Rickey knowing he would get in.
EliminateMe, while not voting for Rickey doesn’t really matter because he’s in anyways, it just shows how incompetent and unequipped some voters are. We just want the voter pool to be informed and deserving of the honor they’ve been handed.
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realized God doesn’t work that way, so I stole one and prayed for forgiveness. - Emo Philips
Neglectful father of David Quinowski
by marcello on Jan 13, 2009 12:56 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
+109
And by the way The Dodgers are still EVIL.
Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!
Here comes Captain Obvious wearing his Atomic Wedgie!
by daveinexile on Jan 13, 2009 4:08 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I also read that voters have their “vote card” for life. So if they are retired from writing and go even more brain dead than they already were, they can still vote.
VOTE OR till you DIE Mutha Fucka!
Giant Dirtbags: Brian Anderson, Todd Jennings, Steve Hammond, John Bowker
Jeremy Affeldt Ready To Make His Father Proud
by Giant among Angels on Jan 13, 2009 6:16 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I would just like to say...
The Hall of Fame induction process is stupid. BBWA should be the least important part of the induction. Fans, Peers, then Writers. I don’t care if the BBWA don’t like Mark McGwire. I personally hate the guy. But how is one of the most famous baseball players of an era not a first ballot HOFer? It’s weird. They should just start a new hall called the Hall of Baseball. Only have people in it that fans want in there.
Brian Sabean is akin to a treatable form of cancer... just get rid of it before it kills you
by milesntrane on Jan 13, 2009 12:38 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Fans are just as stupid as the writers
..if not more so. Remember, there’s literally millions of people who lap up whatever Jenkins or Shaughnessy or George King say. Jim Rice probably would have been a Hall of Famer ten years ago if the fans voted on it. The players in the Hall of Fame won’t elect anybody. There’s no perfect solution unfortunately.
The one thing I’ve noticed is that the writers have gotten dumber over the years rather than smarter.
by Bitter Fan on Jan 13, 2009 10:13 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
It’s ok if fans are stupid, though. Different fans are going to know different amounts about the game based on how closely they follow it and how interested they are in learning about the game, but in the end as fans we are just trying to enjoy baseball. For writers, not only do they have a huge influence on fans perceptions, but it’s their job to write about the sport. Jenkins gets paid to follow baseball. That’s the difference, and that’s why it’s so frustrating when members of the media like him choose to not know what they’re talking about.
by Missing Barry on Jan 13, 2009 11:10 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Jenkins gets paid to follow baseball. That’s the difference, and that’s why it’s so frustrating when members of the media like him choose to not know what they’re talking about.
VERY THIS. That statement sums up the entire ESPN network quite well.
by bondslegend on Jan 13, 2009 11:19 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
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