Giants "aggressively pursue" Ramirez
by kenshin1 on Jan 1, 2009 11:13 AM PST
384 comments
According to ESPN (television) and mlbtraderumors.com, the giants are in talks to sign Ramirez.
Ramirez remains a great hitter, posting a remarkable 432 wOBA last season. However, Ramirez constitutes a huge defensive liability. From 2005-2007 Manny contributed an astonishingly awful -22.6, -19.5, and -18.3 runs below average in the field (caveat: in 2008 he "only" cost in his team -4.8 runs in the field which reaks of small sample size).
This defense significantly curtails his value. Let's say for the sake of argument that his 2005-2007 represents Manny's true defensive performance. If in 2009 he contributes 5 wins with his bat, Manny will be worth a total of 3 wins above replacement overall or roughly 1 more win than 2008 Fred Lewis.
Uggh, the dreaded stupid Sabean mistake contract. We really need the dodgers to step up here.
This FanPost is reader-generated, and it does not necessarily reflect the views of McCovey Chronicles. If the author uses filler to achieve the minimum word requirement, a moderator may edit the FanPost for his or her own amusement.
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Sabean is just running up the price for the Dodgers, agent Ned must play along!
But hey, a high priced, slow, swatting, left fielder, with personality quirks…
Hmmmmmm… No more than 5years 120mil!!! ;→
by toofruss on Jan 1, 2009 11:26 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
It isn't Sabean
Isn’t this obvious to everyone that Boras is behind this rumor. He knows the only place Manny will get paid well is with the Dodgers, so he makes up a rumor that their rivals who happen to need a power hitter are now in the market.
There’s no reason for us to sign Manny – my opinion is the our outfield is already set with Lewis, Winn, Rowand and Schierholtz as a #4. However, the real reason we have no need to sign Manny is there’s already a certain old, defensive liability power-hitting leftfielder out there looking for work, who we could sign for a lot less money. He also happens to be the favorite player of a large percentage of Giants fans. Not that I think we SHOULD sign Barry, but if we were seriously considering Manny, I’d rather just bring Bonds back.
by Missing Barry on Jan 2, 2009 10:25 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Funny
Your username seems to suggest we should sign Barry..
I only have a signature because I recognize everyone else by their sigs, not their usernames..
by lmaozedong on Jan 3, 2009 3:37 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
So we get him for a year , maybe?
That’ll guarantee a good two months. Not that all that production will run consecutively or nothin’…
Who has the fun?
Is it always the man with the gun?
- The Stranglers
by victor frankenstein on Jan 1, 2009 11:27 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
I was under the impression
that the Giants couldn’t sign any more A/B free agents….?
Ceci n'est pas une signature.
by DbacksSkins on Jan 1, 2009 11:34 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
I think there are exceptions to that rule, but I don’t know how it works.
by Dan from NM on Jan 1, 2009 11:36 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
We're the West Coast Yanquis.
Pedro Feliz Nuevo Ano to the ’Pit.
Who has the fun?
Is it always the man with the gun?
- The Stranglers
by victor frankenstein on Jan 1, 2009 11:37 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I believe
that if they aren’t offered arbitration they don’t count towards the limit? I’m not sure, but that’s what I remember. I know Renteria wasn’t offered arb, and I think one of the relievers wasn’t either.
Less arm, more talk. Raisingcain is a GAMER.
Adopted Giant: Henry Sosa
by raisingcain on Jan 1, 2009 11:42 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
wait never mind
there’s some discussion in the fanshot section, looks like I’m wrong about the rule
Less arm, more talk. Raisingcain is a GAMER.
Adopted Giant: Henry Sosa
by raisingcain on Jan 1, 2009 11:44 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
What's a Fanshot?
A Giant fan at Chavez Latrine?
Who has the fun?
Is it always the man with the gun?
- The Stranglers
by victor frankenstein on Jan 1, 2009 11:45 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Nice one, Vic
Sergio Romo: striking out professional hitters since 2005.
by Lyle on Jan 2, 2009 9:01 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think
that Howry was offered arbitration… I’m not sure how the Yankees got 3 free agents the way they did… I guess rules don’t apply in New York. Clearly recessions and economics don’t.
by MonkeyChow on Jan 3, 2009 8:16 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
The comments MLBTR are f’in hillarious
Sergio Romo will gladly hand you a bench to sit on / GIANTSPACE™ / Adopted brother of the AnVil
by SoFa King Mike on Jan 1, 2009 11:41 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
My favorite:
The only way the Giants get anything for Winn is if they eat his contract.
Sabean stuffs Winn’s contract into his mouth. “So now what’s your offer?”
Wall-E for Best Picture 2008
by Useful_Idiot on Jan 1, 2009 12:56 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Why is the Vice President and General Manager of a baseball franchise dressed like Kramer?
by satyricrash on Jan 1, 2009 1:57 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Um....
because George was already working for the Yankees?
Ceci n'est pas une signature.
by DbacksSkins on Jan 1, 2009 2:46 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
"I'm gonna do it!"
I’m a burgeoning photoshop artist
Wall-E for Best Picture 2008
by Useful_Idiot on Jan 1, 2009 3:42 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Impressive....
Ceci n'est pas une signature.
by DbacksSkins on Jan 2, 2009 1:13 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
haha, you can all look forward to more from me in the future
Wall-E for Best Picture 2008
by Useful_Idiot on Jan 2, 2009 10:09 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Sergio Romo will gladly hand you a bench to sit on / GIANTSPACE™ / Adopted brother of the AnVil
by SoFa King Mike on Jan 2, 2009 9:16 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Rowand is a great outfielder, didnt he win a gold glove or something. The Giants have Brian Wilson for a closer although Howry could do it.
The giants need a bat badly to contend and Manny would be good.
Yes…
by Natto on Jan 1, 2009 2:37 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
that’s a lot of wrong there
We don't really have that much pitching depth. We don't really have that much pitching depth. FOR GOD SAKE, VERUCA, DON'T GO FAKE TRADING JONATHAN SANCHEZ. We don't really have that much pitching depth
by oldjacket on Jan 1, 2009 2:41 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Wrong:
1. Rowand is a great outfielder
2. didn’t he win a gold glove or something. (no question mark)
3. Howry could do it
Right:
1. The Giants have Brian Wilson
2. The giants need a bat badly
Wall-E for Best Picture 2008
by Useful_Idiot on Jan 1, 2009 3:16 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on Jan 1, 2009 12:03 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
we could just be driving the price up for the dodgers though. i hope that’s what we’re doing.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on Jan 1, 2009 12:37 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
What makes you think that Agent Ned isn’t running the price up on us?!?
I mean give it to Sabes to be outwitted by a nitwit underling!
Omar...I'm done with you. Hello Darren Ford! Come to papa.
by PacBellBoozer on Jan 1, 2009 12:40 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
/fingers crossed
I Don't Tolerate Intolerance!
Jeremy Affeldt Ready To Make His Father Proud
by Giant among Angels on Jan 1, 2009 3:07 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Can't wait...
If he cuts off a throw from 15 feet away again, that’s worth the price of season tickets right there!!!
by Rusty the Robot on Jan 1, 2009 12:31 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Who cares about his defense!
As Goofus has shown us all, he has the range to cover both Center AND Left field.
Omar...I'm done with you. Hello Darren Ford! Come to papa.
by PacBellBoozer on Jan 1, 2009 12:41 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Wheelin’ it big in the outer outfield!
My adopted Giant: "Raptor Jesus" Guzman
by Goofus on Jan 1, 2009 5:22 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Wheels on the barca lounger
I Don't Tolerate Intolerance!
Jeremy Affeldt Ready To Make His Father Proud
by Giant among Angels on Jan 1, 2009 5:53 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I like Baggs' take on this
For now, I hope you had a happy holiday season and are looking forward to another year of Giants baseball coverage here at Extra Baggs and the San Jose Mercury News. And if Manny Ramirez becomes a Giant while I’m abroad … well, I just might stay in New Zealand!
Better book that return trip, Andrew!
by Lars The Wanderer on Jan 1, 2009 12:43 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
here is the original report, the very last sentence in the “footnotes” section (obviously Troy Renck thought it was enormous news). Personally I believe this just about not at all.
by FluLikeSymptoms on Jan 1, 2009 1:05 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Manny is pretty bad on defense, but doesn’t Fenway break UZR and other PBP defensive metrics? His true talent on defense is probably closer to -10 runs than it is -15 or above.
by xanthan on Jan 1, 2009 1:05 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
There is something to this. Think playing shallow in Fenway and with The Monster to “protect” him, Ramirez played a different LF. The games I watched where Ramirez played LF for the Dodgers was surprised that Ramirez played a decent LF rather than the terrible defense that one normally hears about his play.
by wilriv21 on Jan 1, 2009 1:19 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
this may be true...
we’ll obviously know more after next season
Flossing a dead horse
by kenshin1 on Jan 1, 2009 1:57 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I thought UZR had park-specific adjustments, no? I know that +/- doesn’t…
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all.
by baetown415 on Jan 1, 2009 9:08 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
eyeroll
"While conservatives tell you 'leave things alone and no one will lose,' and liberals tell you 'interfere a lot and no one will lose,' baseball says 'someone will lose.' Not only says it - but insists upon it! ... Democracy is lovely, but baseball's more mature." BVCE supports SF Dugout and Manny Burriss.
by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Jan 1, 2009 1:06 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Check out The Examined Life. Or don't. Whatever.
"I been waitin' a long time for this! I been waitin' since the f**kin' amateurs!" --WILL "THE THRILL" CLARK
by Josh from Hollywood on Jan 1, 2009 4:38 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Please. God. No.
The Giants need a bat, but not that badly. Put down the phone Brian. Right Now .
The clock doesn't matter in baseball. Time stands still or moves backwards. Theoretically, one game could go on forever. Some seem to.-Herb Caen
My adopted son Matt Downs . Utility Infielder with a Bat !
by nvsfg on Jan 1, 2009 1:11 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
I rather have big boy Bonds
Hasheem "The Dream" Thabeet or Brandon Jennings. A Warrior in 09.
With the 6th Pick in the 2009 MLB Draft, the SF Giants pick Donovan Tate.
Andre Smith in Silver & Black in 2009.
by ejdacanay on Jan 1, 2009 1:13 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
I’d prefer this did not happen, but I’m not too worried about it.
GROUGTHINK ALERT
by groug on Jan 1, 2009 1:14 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Caveat: in 2008 he “only” cost in his team -4.8 runs in the field which reaks of small sample size…Let’s say for the sake of argument that his 2005-2007 represents Manny’s true defensive performance
2008 does not “reek of small sample size” anymore than any other season. This is why we use multiple years for defensive stats – the year to year variance is pretty big. You can’t just toss out the years that don’t fit your theory. Average the last five years for Ramirez (in his case, PMR and UZR pretty much agree so there’s no real need to use more than one stat) and he’s more like a -15 fielder. That’s still terrible, but not as bad.
But no, I don’t want him, though I not too worried either.
..so allow me to present Tim Lincecum and Matt Cain as two sweet, sweet bottles of warming hooch.
by Cookyman on Jan 1, 2009 1:19 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Evaluating....
any player by 1 season of defensive stats is by definition small sample size.
Flossing a dead horse
by kenshin1 on Jan 1, 2009 1:55 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Which is why I used 5 years.
..so allow me to present Tim Lincecum and Matt Cain as two sweet, sweet bottles of warming hooch.
by Cookyman on Jan 1, 2009 1:57 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Also
Ignoring a players last year just because (???) is the definition of…umm…I don’t know. something bad.
..so allow me to present Tim Lincecum and Matt Cain as two sweet, sweet bottles of warming hooch.
by Cookyman on Jan 1, 2009 2:03 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
players...
not named Omar Vizquel tend to peak as defenders in their early 20’s and decline fairly rapidly thereafter. In Manny’s case we have a mid 30’s player with a terrible defensive reputation (and corroborative stat evidence) who posts a season completely out of line with the trend of his career. You can’t ignore Manny’s 2008 season but I don’t think you can give it to much weight.
That said, if you want to call Manny a -1.5 win defensive player rather than a -2 win defensive player, I have no problem with that decision.
Flossing a dead horse
by kenshin1 on Jan 1, 2009 2:10 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Manny's UZR over the last 7 years
2002: -0.9
2003: 3.7
2004: -2.5
2005: -22.6
2006: -19.5
2007: -18.3
2008: -4.8
Three average years, three terrible years, one below average year. If you want the largest sample size possible, use all seven years. If you want to focus on recent performance, since 2002 was a long time ago, you can just look at the last three or something. You can also use all of them, but give more weight to recent years. But there’s no logic behind picking three years from the middle of the list and deciding that they’re the only ones the that matter, or giving less weight to his last year because his numbers that year were surprising, or because they weaken your point.
Let’s say a reliever has pitched for six years. His ERA was 3.00 in the first year, 5.00 over next 4 years, and then 3.00 again in the last one. What would you predict his ERA to be next year? Obviously, you shouldn’t just look at the last year and say that he’s a 3.00 ERA pitcher. But should you just toss out the two years with a 3.00 ERA, and assume that he’s a 5.00 ERA pitcher? Of course not.
Defense stats are already shaky, and suffer from lack of sufficient sample size. The last thing we should be doing is ignoring data. No, it doesn’t really matter that much if Ramirez is -15 or -20, but I still think that this is a pretty important general point.
..so allow me to present Tim Lincecum and Matt Cain as two sweet, sweet bottles of warming hooch.
by Cookyman on Jan 1, 2009 3:09 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
plus the fact that manny had a UZR of -4.8 after 3 years of negative values in double digits would seem to emphasize how much manny put into last year trying to get a multiyear deal. Seeing the defensive stats only amplifies my opinion that manny should not get a multiyear deal under any circumstances
Todd Jennings: If he's on the DL, he can't suck as much, right?
by Speedforthewin on Jan 2, 2009 6:47 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Well, it was ...
the only year he wasn’t playing all his home games in an odd, misshapen stadium. So one might make the case that you can give 2008 more weight than any other single season.
Saving countless runs with my Brian Horwitz
by lyricalkiller on Jan 1, 2009 3:16 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I can’t stop thinking about you thinking about Manny Ramirez.
Check out The Examined Life. Or don't. Whatever.
"I been waitin' a long time for this! I been waitin' since the f**kin' amateurs!" --WILL "THE THRILL" CLARK
by Josh from Hollywood on Jan 1, 2009 4:27 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
are there maybe 10 things you think you think about grant thinking about manny ramirez?
what? too far?
Idolizing Robb Nen since 2002...
by Smoke on the Water on Jan 1, 2009 9:09 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
The 28 year old rational part of me is saying “No, don’t do this. If his bat slips at all, his defense kills us. And don’t undo all the good rebuilding work you’ve done the last two years.”
The 15 year old in me is saying “OMG DOOOOOO IT! PABLITO AND MANNY WILL COME UP WITH SO MANY KEWL DUGOUT HANDSHAKES!”
I’m torn.
by KCE on Jan 1, 2009 1:27 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Does this assume we get rid of Winn?
I am not too comfortable with Freddie Lew in Right, Manny in Left, and Rowand doing the worm out in Center.
In the words of Mr. Horse, “No sir, I don’t like it.”
"Forget it Donny, you're out of your element"-Walter Sobchak
by icanplaythird on Jan 1, 2009 1:30 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
I think Freddie would be the odd man out
Winn has dibs on RF. We wouldn’t pay him 8 mil just to be a 4th OF.
by boonitez on Jan 1, 2009 2:06 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
He Is Talking About Trading Winn To Free Up Some Of The Dollars And Moving Lewis To RF To Free Up LF For Manny
But, again, I think this is moot. The Giants have already reached their limit on the number of Type A/B Free Agents they can sign.
by giantsrainman on Jan 1, 2009 2:09 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
How can this rule be true?
The Yankees signed 3 type A’s, and they might sign another in Andy Petitte. I think we probably can sign Manny if we really wanted to or nobody would be reporting it. Baseball writers usually aren’t THAT dumb.
by boonitez on Jan 1, 2009 2:52 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
We signed 4 players. The Yankees signed 3.
..so allow me to present Tim Lincecum and Matt Cain as two sweet, sweet bottles of warming hooch.
by Cookyman on Jan 1, 2009 3:10 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
but 3 of them weren't offered arbitration
by boonitez on Jan 1, 2009 3:26 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
No Where In The CBA Does Not Offering Arbitration Effect This Quota
It only effects compentation (no draft picks).
by giantsrainman on Jan 1, 2009 3:30 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Really? Baseball Writers Aren't THAT DUMB?
It seems to me that the Yankees can sign one of Petitte or Manny but not both. Even if the writers know and understand this limitation they can still discuss both since both are still options for the Yankees.
by giantsrainman on Jan 1, 2009 3:36 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think many writers read the CBA
And the FA quota’s pretty obscure
I’d never heard of it until I looking in the CAB for info about salary arbitration a couple seasons ago, I’ve NEVER heard/read it discussed in the media.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
by Bhaakon on Jan 1, 2009 4:59 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
If Manny becomes a Giant...
I think Rowand has to be the guy who goes. I can’t even begin to imagine Rowand and Manny peacefully coexisting next to one another in CF and LF over an entire season.
No way is any of this going to happen, though. Not a chance.
Why couldn't McCovey have hit the ball just three feet higher??
by tobias on Jan 1, 2009 11:22 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
If the Giants sign manny, there is no youth movement. That talk will have gone out the window. Lewis and Schierholtz will be on the bench so the giants can have a “veteran” lineup with Crede and Ramirez in it, and a veteran OF in Rowand, Ramirez and Winn. ugh.
Todd Jennings: If he's on the DL, he can't suck as much, right?
by Speedforthewin on Jan 2, 2009 6:42 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I’ve heard that the Giants can sign one more Type A/B but they definitely can’t sign two more. So it’s Crede OR Ramirez. (I hope they choose Crede.)
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on Jan 2, 2009 6:42 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
How does signing Ramirez matter since he wasn’t offered Arb per the terms of the trade that sent him to the bums?
Todd Jennings: If he's on the DL, he can't suck as much, right?
by Speedforthewin on Jan 2, 2009 6:43 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
that part apparently doesn’t make a difference.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on Jan 2, 2009 6:44 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
what is the quota? 4 players?
Todd Jennings: If he's on the DL, he can't suck as much, right?
by Speedforthewin on Jan 2, 2009 6:44 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
It depends on how many you lose and how many there are.
Someone here has laid it all out quite nicely. If he’s right, anyway.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on Jan 2, 2009 6:48 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
ok, thanks for the link. For the record, i also would prefer to sign crede but would rather sign neither
Todd Jennings: If he's on the DL, he can't suck as much, right?
by Speedforthewin on Jan 2, 2009 6:51 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I hope you are right, and all the Manny crap blows over.
I Don't Tolerate Intolerance!
Jeremy Affeldt Ready To Make His Father Proud
by Giant among Angels on Jan 2, 2009 6:48 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I’m hoping Omar Minaya jumps in and steals Manny from both us and the Dodgers. Best case scenario, IMO
Wall-E for Best Picture 2008
by Useful_Idiot on Jan 2, 2009 10:11 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I’m not real into this.
We don't really have that much pitching depth. We don't really have that much pitching depth. FOR GOD SAKE, VERUCA, DON'T GO FAKE TRADING JONATHAN SANCHEZ. We don't really have that much pitching depth
by oldjacket on Jan 1, 2009 1:37 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Evaluate the source
Who was the source of this rumor?
1, Is it the agent who wants to get teams interested in his client to drive up price?
2. Is it an SF organization guy to change the subject of Bonds having hip surgery so he can return to MLB?
3. How did Denver reporter get the scoop?
by wilriv21 on Jan 1, 2009 1:49 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Eviscerate the source.
we’re all a – twitter.
Who has the fun?
Is it always the man with the gun?
- The Stranglers
by victor frankenstein on Jan 2, 2009 8:28 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Needs more tire kicking if you ask me.
by deuce deuce on Jan 1, 2009 2:34 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
The clock doesn't matter in baseball. Time stands still or moves backwards. Theoretically, one game could go on forever. Some seem to.-Herb Caen
My adopted son Matt Downs . Utility Infielder with a Bat !
by nvsfg on Jan 1, 2009 2:59 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I really, really don’t buy that Manny Ramirez is only slightly better than Fred Lewis. Stuff like that makes me question both how these stats measure defense and how much weight is given to them.
by kingofthacove on Jan 1, 2009 2:40 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
I think it’s fine to take that with a grain of salt. It’s well known that Fenway deforms defensive metrics and I’m inclined to think that there’s a chance that whatever correction people are using isn’t correcting enough.
That being said Manny sure as hell looks like he’s got all the range of Edgardo Alfonso in a wet pair of flip-flops.
We don't really have that much pitching depth. We don't really have that much pitching depth. FOR GOD SAKE, VERUCA, DON'T GO FAKE TRADING JONATHAN SANCHEZ. We don't really have that much pitching depth
by oldjacket on Jan 1, 2009 2:44 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
He does...
…but -25 in LF tends to stretch the bounds of reason..Dunn and Burrell aren’t any better, and I’m pretty sure neither guy rates so badly in UZR.
And make no mistake, the Giants need to sign one of these guys, unless contending in a ridiculously winnable division is not something we’re interested in. So there should be a statue in LF in 09, just depends on what you want.
by Bitter Fan on Jan 1, 2009 2:47 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
why though? If they’re going to give away the runs they take and cost a fortune, why not just go to war with the soldiers we’ve got?
We don't really have that much pitching depth. We don't really have that much pitching depth. FOR GOD SAKE, VERUCA, DON'T GO FAKE TRADING JONATHAN SANCHEZ. We don't really have that much pitching depth
by oldjacket on Jan 1, 2009 3:07 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with this. Manny almost singlehandedly won the NL west for the Dodgers last year, and for all of you complaining about his attitude, he has two more rings than the Giants do. Do you have any stats about how much better he makes the other players in the lineup, just like Barry used to do when he was in his prime?? If the Giants signed Manny Ramirez they would be prohibitive favorites in the NL west in 2009. That being said, I don’t believe for a second that they will sign him, or that they’re even interested. It’s probably the same type of interest that they had in Sabathia, where they don’t make an offer, but wait and see if somehow the player’s price comes way down.
Brian Sabean's dad- will make a few phone calls to help his son find a new job after next season
by rxmeister on Jan 1, 2009 5:34 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I think this is a good point
any stat (or group of stats) that shows Manny Ramirez to be only slightly better than Fred Lewis is a stat that needs some work.
by FluLikeSymptoms on Jan 1, 2009 4:11 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
or you
don’t know how to evaluate baseball players. There’s that possibility as well. BTW Manny was worth 3-4 more games than Fred Lewis last season which is huge.
Flossing a dead horse
by kenshin1 on Jan 1, 2009 4:16 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
yes, I’m probably the idiot here. I’ll look forward to seeing Fred Lewis play in many All Star games
by FluLikeSymptoms on Jan 1, 2009 4:23 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
that's not what I'm saying....
it’s just dismissing stats out of hand because they don’t jive with your expectations is completely ignorant.
Flossing a dead horse
by kenshin1 on Jan 1, 2009 4:27 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
no it isn’t. What you see with your own eyes tells you more than any stat can. I watch 162 Giants’ games a season. If I decide after watching all those games that a player sucks, than I won’t believe any stat that tells me he’s good.
Brian Sabean's dad- will make a few phone calls to help his son find a new job after next season
by rxmeister on Jan 1, 2009 5:42 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
that's just silly...
I am 100% certain that a system that takes play-by-play data into account is better than your or my eyes.
Furthermore, if you are not using an advanced metric to evaluate offense you are irretrievably wrong. Using BA/HR/RBI is just out-moded.
Flossing a dead horse
by kenshin1 on Jan 1, 2009 5:52 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Damn.
That’s all I can carry.
Who has the fun?
Is it always the man with the gun?
- The Stranglers
by victor frankenstein on Jan 1, 2009 5:53 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
the thing is vic...
that offensive stats are really quite mature at this point. They do a very good job of describing that half of the game. They will be refined in time but they are not going to be re-invented.
Flossing a dead horse
by kenshin1 on Jan 1, 2009 5:57 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
speak for yourself
maybe your eyes deceive you but mine work pretty well. I’ve had Lasik surgery. Normally my opinions jibe with the stats, but I’m not going to apologize for trusting my own instincts and knowledge of baseball when they don’t.
Brian Sabean's dad- will make a few phone calls to help his son find a new job after next season
by rxmeister on Jan 1, 2009 6:15 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
There are far too many variables and intangibles in the game of baseball for statistics to be the supreme evaluator of a player’s value.
A fan who hasn’t watched Yankees games might look at ARod’s stats from his first couple years with the team and say he had a good season, but most Yankee fans will tell you that most of his RBIs and hits came when the Yanks were ahead or the game was out of reach.
Armando Benitez was a fantastic closer with Florida, but when he played for teams in bigger markets and he was under more pressure, he was awful.
There are way too many variables to consider when acquiring a player. Any GM that would ignore all the questions and points of consideration because of a statistic shouldn’t have a job.
Wall-E for Best Picture 2008
by Useful_Idiot on Jan 1, 2009 8:13 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
you’re saying that what the fans think should be the ultimate guide to what GMs do?
We don't really have that much pitching depth. We don't really have that much pitching depth. FOR GOD SAKE, VERUCA, DON'T GO FAKE TRADING JONATHAN SANCHEZ. We don't really have that much pitching depth
by oldjacket on Jan 1, 2009 8:47 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
There's a reason that "most fans" are fans.
Good scouting is an important and valuable part of evaluating players.
What fans think they see, and even what a knowledgeable fan thinks s/he sees (myself included) is not good scouting.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
by Bhaakon on Jan 1, 2009 8:55 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I know. Judging ARod by what the typical Yankee fan thinks is substitute an imperfect method of evaluation (statistical) for a completely nutso one.
I would never denigrate the importance of good scouting (not after seeing what Dick Tidrow has done for pitching in this organization), but even that isn’t perfect. I guarantee you that the Giants scouted Armando Benitez before they signed him.
We don't really have that much pitching depth. We don't really have that much pitching depth. FOR GOD SAKE, VERUCA, DON'T GO FAKE TRADING JONATHAN SANCHEZ. We don't really have that much pitching depth
by oldjacket on Jan 1, 2009 9:08 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
wow
No. I’m saying that anybody (GM, fan, whatever) can learn more about a player and his value by watching him on a consistent basis rather than paging through stat sheets.
Wall-E for Best Picture 2008
by Useful_Idiot on Jan 2, 2009 10:14 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I disagree with that. Not anybody can do that. Only people who trained or talented at knowing what they are seeing can do that.
We don't really have that much pitching depth. We don't really have that much pitching depth. FOR GOD SAKE, VERUCA, DON'T GO FAKE TRADING JONATHAN SANCHEZ. We don't really have that much pitching depth
by oldjacket on Jan 2, 2009 10:16 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
That's a legitimate point
But I wanted to clear up my argument- I wasn’t saying that GMs should listen to the fans for guidance
Wall-E for Best Picture 2008
by Useful_Idiot on Jan 2, 2009 10:19 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
good
GMs should never listen to either fans or sportswriters.
We don't really have that much pitching depth. We don't really have that much pitching depth. FOR GOD SAKE, VERUCA, DON'T GO FAKE TRADING JONATHAN SANCHEZ. We don't really have that much pitching depth
by oldjacket on Jan 2, 2009 10:25 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
that’s true.
The Benitez lemma, we call it.
We don't really have that much pitching depth. We don't really have that much pitching depth. FOR GOD SAKE, VERUCA, DON'T GO FAKE TRADING JONATHAN SANCHEZ. We don't really have that much pitching depth
by oldjacket on Jan 2, 2009 12:58 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, I don't want Arod on my team
because of what Yankee fans say. Let’s face it, they are about the most reasonable people you’ll ever meet.
He just singed a 10 year, 2.4 billion dollar deal because he can’t “hit when it counts”.
by bondslegend on Jan 2, 2009 1:03 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Why are you all putting words in my mouth?
I never said I wouldn’t want ARod on my team. The point is, he was better on paper than he was in reality, and he’s a better fit in some places than in others.
Wall-E for Best Picture 2008
by Useful_Idiot on Jan 2, 2009 10:17 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
but most Yankee fans will tell you that most of his RBIs and hits came when the Yanks were ahead or the game was out of reach.
Why wouldn’t you be able to check that with stats? Some stats take context into consideration.
..so allow me to present Tim Lincecum and Matt Cain as two sweet, sweet bottles of warming hooch.
by Cookyman on Jan 2, 2009 12:19 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Which stats?
Honest question
Wall-E for Best Picture 2008
by Useful_Idiot on Jan 2, 2009 1:22 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
WPA and Clutch from Fangraphs. They back up your Yankee fans to a certain extent, rating Arod as horribly unclutch last year, and bouncing around from terrible to pretty clutch in previous years.
We don't really have that much pitching depth. We don't really have that much pitching depth. FOR GOD SAKE, VERUCA, DON'T GO FAKE TRADING JONATHAN SANCHEZ. We don't really have that much pitching depth
by oldjacket on Jan 2, 2009 1:31 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
WPA
WPA (win probability added): The difference in win expectancy (WE)*** between the start of the play and the end of the play. That difference is then credited/debited to the batter and the pitcher. Over the course of the season, each player’s WPA for individual plays is added up to get his season total WPA.
***WE (win expectancy): The percent chance a particular team will win based on the score, inning, outs, runners on base, and the run environment.
An average players will have a WPA of 0. Anything over 2 is very good. Over 4 is great, and anything over 6 is MVP caliber (this is all in wins above average). And like in pretty much every other stat, Barry Bonds holds the record with an obscene 12.63 WPA in 2004. You can get it at FanGraphs.
..so allow me to present Tim Lincecum and Matt Cain as two sweet, sweet bottles of warming hooch.
by Cookyman on Jan 2, 2009 2:21 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Too be fair...
while I agree that is true, accepting a stat just because it’s on fangraphs is just as ignorant. There has to be some proof and/or reasonable arguments or explanations for what exactly the stat measures and how it does that.
by kingofthacove on Jan 1, 2009 6:11 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
(not that this is always the case; it’s just that some stats whose formulas were never revealed and could have been a bunch of bullshit have in the past been highly regard)
by kingofthacove on Jan 1, 2009 6:14 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
manny is #3-4 bat lewis is a #5-6 bat….
regardless of stats / potential wins we DONT HAVE A POWER HITTER anywhere in the lineup, as scary as ManRam is in the OF he would def be worth the “power hitter” status
lastly w/ ManRam giants have a better chance to win the west
by cazzuno on Jan 1, 2009 10:31 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
actually Manny is a 3-4 hitter and we HOPE that Lewis is a 5-6 hitter. I like Freddie Lewis and hope he gets even better, but he’s still pretty unproven as a winning everyday player. Comparing him to Manny is just ridiculous. I don’t want to knock stats, so let’s just say in this case there’s a statistical anomoly.
Brian Sabean's dad- will make a few phone calls to help his son find a new job after next season
by rxmeister on Jan 2, 2009 5:52 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Hard for Lewis to get better on the bench……
I Don't Tolerate Intolerance!
Jeremy Affeldt Ready To Make His Father Proud
by Giant among Angels on Jan 2, 2009 6:51 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree. In order to compete in seasons after 2009, we will need development. That means Lewis, Schierholtz, Sandoval, Ishikawa and a 2B need a good number of ABs to develop. If Crede and Ramirez are signed, organizationally we take a step back, IMO
Todd Jennings: If he's on the DL, he can't suck as much, right?
by Speedforthewin on Jan 2, 2009 6:53 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Definitely. Though I am not nearly concerned with Crede as I am with Manny.
I Don't Tolerate Intolerance!
Jeremy Affeldt Ready To Make His Father Proud
by Giant among Angels on Jan 2, 2009 7:18 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Lets get this shit straight.
The stats Kenshin was referring to say Mandy was a way better player last year than Fred Lewis. Really.
There’s a bigger difference between Mandy and Fred than there is between Fred and Jose Castillo.
What they also say is that before last year, Mandy had been declining slowly with the bat and rapidly on the field, and that he hasn’t been better than that since 2002. If he resumes his decline, then Lewis may be a better player by the end of whatever contract Mandy gets offered.
Whether you think that risk is too big really doesn’t depend on what you think about stats, but what you think about Mandy. I’m skeptical mainly because I just don’t trust a guy to keep trying who doesn’t seem to be that into the game for the game’s sake. Plus all the normal stuff for baseball players in their late 30’s.
We don't really have that much pitching depth. We don't really have that much pitching depth. FOR GOD SAKE, VERUCA, DON'T GO FAKE TRADING JONATHAN SANCHEZ. We don't really have that much pitching depth
by oldjacket on Jan 2, 2009 8:17 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
But...but...
…he’s worth $11 million!
Me , I’d just stop trying to prove myself and kick back in Bali.
Who has the fun?
Is it always the man with the gun?
- The Stranglers
by victor frankenstein on Jan 2, 2009 8:32 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
we claim he doesn’t try, but doesn’t he play everyday?? Does he sit out day games after night games?? Does he miss games with silly minor injuries?? The guy shows up to play 162 games a season and while he pulled some shit to get out of Boston, there’s really no evidence to support all the bad things about him that’s being said over here.
Brian Sabean's dad- will make a few phone calls to help his son find a new job after next season
by rxmeister on Jan 2, 2009 9:32 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Wtf
I seem to remember there being a lot of talk about Manny faking injuries and taking more time off than he actually needed.
FWIW, Manny has never, in 18 years, played 162 games in a season. That took me like 5 seconds to look up. He only played in 133 in 07 and 130 in 06, about the same number of games that Bonds played in during the same time period.
by bondslegend on Jan 2, 2009 9:36 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
And here's your evidence:
Boston thought they were a better team by getting rid of him. Not because they could find a better player, but because he was such a galactic fucktard. They got rid of 1 of their 2 best offensive players simply because he was being a dick. That doesn’t happen too often, unless you’re Terrell Owens, and Manny doesn’t even play as hard as TO,
by bondslegend on Jan 2, 2009 9:38 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
“galactic fucktard” is an awesome desription. I am going to find a reason to call someone this today.
by Lars The Wanderer on Jan 2, 2009 9:43 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Um...
…I was referring to Fred Lewis , who elsewhere was WARP evaluated to have a 2008 value of eleven mil. Sorry for the confusion.
Who has the fun?
Is it always the man with the gun?
- The Stranglers
by victor frankenstein on Jan 2, 2009 10:32 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
?
he’s saying Lewis is a two win player, Manny, shitty defense and all, is usually more like a 6 win player.
I thought we were talking about what he will be, though. Manny had a great season last year, but he’d been declining before that. He’s at the age where he might just turn from a bad defender to an unplayable (and expensive) one.
We don't really have that much pitching depth. We don't really have that much pitching depth. FOR GOD SAKE, VERUCA, DON'T GO FAKE TRADING JONATHAN SANCHEZ. We don't really have that much pitching depth
by oldjacket on Jan 1, 2009 4:28 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
/Pulls the tarp off the BALCO machinery
Who has the fun?
Is it always the man with the gun?
- The Stranglers
by victor frankenstein on Jan 1, 2009 4:33 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
yeah...
you pretty much nailed it.
If you believe that Manny’s awesome performance last year (which truly was impressive) represents a sustainable level over the length of his next contract, he is absolutely a superstar.
However, even if I overstated his defensive problems (which is the consensus apparently), he is still a poor defensive player (lets say -5 to -10 ratther than -15 to -20) and gives back a bit of his offensive value. Take into account that Manny was nowhere near as good in the 2 seasons prior to this one and the Lewis comments make more sense.
Flossing a dead horse
by kenshin1 on Jan 1, 2009 4:34 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Looking at Fangraphs, last year was Ramirez’s best season since 2002, which was the last time he could play defense without embarrassment.
We don't really have that much pitching depth. We don't really have that much pitching depth. FOR GOD SAKE, VERUCA, DON'T GO FAKE TRADING JONATHAN SANCHEZ. We don't really have that much pitching depth
by oldjacket on Jan 1, 2009 4:38 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
ok, but Fred Lewis put up an OPS+ of 105 last year in his only full season and at age 28 is unlikely to get a whole hell of a lot better. I won’t waste everybody’s time listing all of Manny’s OPS+s but let’s just say none of them have ever existed in the same stratosphere as 105. To add a guy like Manny Ramirez makes a fundamental difference in a team’s lineup that would take a hell of a lot of defensive deficiency to make up for. I am also highly skeptical of Lewis’s good defensive statistics last year, he has still played a pretty small number of games (204) in his career. I tend to take surprising defensive stats with a grain of salt if they are based on a small sample size (this is where giantsrainman could really help out my argument with his UZR numbers showing Euey Velez and Blake Dewitt to be relatively equally defenders at 2B).
by FluLikeSymptoms on Jan 1, 2009 4:45 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Lewis...
if you believe UZR (which I do in this case as Lewis is pretty athletic and , I believe played some CF in the minors) was essentially a league average player last season. It’s not that he’s particularly good, it’s just that pre-2008 Manny was not that much above average.
Flossing a dead horse
by kenshin1 on Jan 1, 2009 4:50 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Nothing unreasonable about any of that, except that neither Captain Pickoff nor Dewitt played enough games at second to really undermine UZR’s credibility.
We don't really have that much pitching depth. We don't really have that much pitching depth. FOR GOD SAKE, VERUCA, DON'T GO FAKE TRADING JONATHAN SANCHEZ. We don't really have that much pitching depth
by oldjacket on Jan 1, 2009 6:55 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
3-4 games?
If this is true then I don’t see the comparison at all. 3-4 games is a huge amount, so he’s not really “slightly better than fred lewis”, he’s “much much better than fred lewis” which is very reasonable.
Less arm, more talk. Raisingcain is a GAMER.
Adopted Giant: Henry Sosa
by raisingcain on Jan 1, 2009 7:44 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
3-4 games
IS huge. But Manny had a season markedly better than his prior ones. If you anticipate age-based decline and regression to the mean, Manny is unlikely to be so much better than average again.
Flossing a dead horse
by kenshin1 on Jan 1, 2009 7:50 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
of course, at the same time, there are those who argue that Fred is unlikely to be as good in 09 as he was in 08.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on Jan 1, 2009 10:53 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I was referring to the initial post
by kingofthacove on Jan 2, 2009 3:23 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Honestly...
Are you guys insane? Manny would be freakin’ great for the Giants.
I guess it’s defensible to say, I don’t want Manny because I want Adam Dunn since he’s cheaper and less of a headcase, and we can use the surplus money to maybe take on a bat with less than optimal contract, but if you don’t want Manny because of his defense, you’re high. Manny fills the Giants most gaping need (and it’s not close) in having a great bat and being able to jerk the ball out of the park more than once every 25 ABs.
I don’t know about youse guys, but I tend to find value in 88 wins and the playoffs rather than 82 wins and nuttin’.
by Bitter Fan on Jan 1, 2009 2:44 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
It's more that Scott Boras
would fuck our payroll. He’s also old, so we don’t know how much longer he’ll last. If he flames out because of age we’re fucked because he would be making more than 20 mil. He’s also a prick asshole, and not exactly the ideal leader in your clubhouse.
by boonitez on Jan 1, 2009 2:48 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
+1
I Don't Tolerate Intolerance!
Jeremy Affeldt Ready To Make His Father Proud
by Giant among Angels on Jan 1, 2009 3:03 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry, I don’t agree. He’s getting three years at the max, so he’s not screwing up your payroll long term. In fact it does you a favor because if the Giants’ total payroll rises greatly this year, it will probably stay there permanently. As for the “prick asshole” thing, we had another another leftfielder who was an even bigger prick asshole and everyone loved him. This new prick asshole has greatly contributed to two world champion teams, and the other one that we loved so much never won us anything.
Brian Sabean's dad- will make a few phone calls to help his son find a new job after next season
by rxmeister on Jan 1, 2009 5:50 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't care about Manny being an Ass
I do care if he doesn’t put forth sufficient effort, which he has done in the past, and Bonds never did. And I’m not refering to jogging to 1B on ground outs and other forms of “hustle.” With his final big payday in hand, he’ll loaf around, take unnecessary days off, and generally allow his skills to degrade, possibly even attempting to force another trade.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
by Bhaakon on Jan 1, 2009 6:00 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Further, I am sure he would also require some sort of special treatment that I dont want our young players getting infected with.
I believe he will cause turmoil in the clubhouse.
I Don't Tolerate Intolerance!
Jeremy Affeldt Ready To Make His Father Proud
by Giant among Angels on Jan 1, 2009 6:06 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
you gotta be kidding. You’re not referring to “jogging to 1B??” How about playing countless catchable flyballs on hops?? How about jogging out of the baseline instead of trying to break up a DP?? How about lobbing throws into the infield instead of exerting himself trying to throw a runner out at the plate?? We forgave him for everything because he was Barry Bonds, and we wouldn’t allow ANYONE else to get away with that shit. Manny Ramirez is Pete Rose compared to Barry Bonds.
Brian Sabean's dad- will make a few phone calls to help his son find a new job after next season
by rxmeister on Jan 1, 2009 6:07 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Let me put it like this...
I never had to worry that Bonds wasn’t motivated to win. I never had to worry that Bonds wasn’t keeping his body in the best possible shape. I never had to worry that Bonds would be happy to sit on his laurels (and large bank account) and cease his assault on history/a ring/etc. I have to worry about all those things with Manny.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
by Bhaakon on Jan 1, 2009 6:14 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
yeah, not like Barry didn’t get fat his last couple of years or anything.
Brian Sabean's dad- will make a few phone calls to help his son find a new job after next season
by rxmeister on Jan 1, 2009 6:25 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Eh, I don't see it.
Except that comeback at the end of 2005 when he’d been hobbled for most of a year by three knee surgeries.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
by Bhaakon on Jan 1, 2009 6:28 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
You appear to have an irrational hatred of Bonds
But it’s tough to argue Manny is better for your clubhouse than Bonds. Remember how Manny picked fights with his own teammates, knocked around the team travelling agent for not getting him enough tickets, and literally told his team he wasn’t playing until he got traded? Did you ever see Bonds ride the Chevron car off the field to take a piss? No. You didn’t. Bonds definitely wasn’t a class act, but he was by no means Manny. And that arguement of Bonds didn’t win us anything is kind of a crap arguement; the Red Sox didn’t win because Manny singlehandedly took them there; he happened to be on a loaded ass team. Bonds was on an offensively loaded team that choked on the pitching end. It’s not his fault his team didn’t suceed; the stats show he did all he could.
by boonitez on Jan 2, 2009 5:32 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree that Bonds did do those thing you describe which in my opinion disrespects the game.
There is the saying “Manny being Manny” for a reason. Whether it was to say “F you” to the FO or he did not feel like playing that day or that particular play. But there are 8 other guys on the field playing their balls off to win the game. So in my eyes Manny is a selfish SOB that WILL taint the youth on the team.
Selfish
I Don't Tolerate Intolerance!
Jeremy Affeldt Ready To Make His Father Proud
by Giant among Angels on Jan 1, 2009 6:20 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Baseball gods will strike him down sooner or later.....Headphones, Really?
I Don't Tolerate Intolerance!
Jeremy Affeldt Ready To Make His Father Proud
by Giant among Angels on Jan 1, 2009 6:26 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
If he has the earphones in also... then he is damned as well..........
I Don't Tolerate Intolerance!
Jeremy Affeldt Ready To Make His Father Proud
by Giant among Angels on Jan 1, 2009 8:05 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
They’re these Oakleys with a built-in MP3 player
http://oakley.com/pd/2794
by Natto on Jan 1, 2009 9:17 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I’ve seen them before. My point is that it is an insult to the game if a player is actually listening to music when playing the game.
I Don't Tolerate Intolerance!
Jeremy Affeldt Ready To Make His Father Proud
by Giant among Angels on Jan 1, 2009 9:20 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I dunno
Maybe it helps them concentrate. It doesn’t seem that big of a deal for me.
by Natto on Jan 1, 2009 9:59 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I dont buy it. The game too boring that music is needed? If that was the case that it helped him concentrate, then he would be wearing them in the batters circle as well. I think it was Manny’s way as saying “F YOU” to the FO.
Mr. Doubleday is turning in his grave.
I Don't Tolerate Intolerance!
Jeremy Affeldt Ready To Make His Father Proud
by Giant among Angels on Jan 2, 2009 6:33 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
They're listening to music anyway
Better their favorite tunes than the lowest common denominator fair pumped through the stadium sound system.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
by Bhaakon on Jan 1, 2009 11:01 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Have you ever been to a game? Ever noticed that the music and all sound effects and all musical organs are turned off when the pitcher is set and the ball is in play? It is very bush.
I dont think it is a big deal during BP or in a situation like that, but during a game, come on.
I Don't Tolerate Intolerance!
Jeremy Affeldt Ready To Make His Father Proud
by Giant among Angels on Jan 2, 2009 6:38 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I like players who respect the game and play the game in a way that makes me feel as if they are bringing everything they have to each game. That being said…well, let’s put it this way: if Barry (circa 1993-2004) had regularly worn those things, I’d have been OK with it.
Why couldn't McCovey have hit the ball just three feet higher??
by tobias on Jan 1, 2009 11:06 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
No One Is Above the Game
Even beloved Barry.
Barry did some very bush things, I dont see that he would get away with something like that w/o getting an earful from someone like Mays or his father. I dont see a coach at any level letting their players getting away with something like that. Only the Pre-madonnas would even consider doing something so disrespectful to the game. No one is above the game.
I Don't Tolerate Intolerance!
Jeremy Affeldt Ready To Make His Father Proud
by Giant among Angels on Jan 2, 2009 6:46 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
you guys are dead wrong about the earphones thing. You can see by the scoreboard that that was a road game. Don’t you think it’s possible that Manny was taking alot of shit from the fans and thought it would be better not to hear them?? I used to always sit out in leftfield whenever the Giants came to New York, and you wouldn’t believe the vile obscenities that were thrown at Barry. I bet Barry wishes he would have thought of the earphones at the time.
Brian Sabean's dad- will make a few phone calls to help his son find a new job after next season
by rxmeister on Jan 2, 2009 8:01 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Barry fed off that shit talking, though.
Sergio Romo will gladly hand you a bench to sit on / GIANTSPACE™ / Adopted brother of the AnVil
by SoFa King Mike on Jan 2, 2009 8:23 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I knowed it! wuz not the roidz that sweld hiz hed.
Who has the fun?
Is it always the man with the gun?
- The Stranglers
by victor frankenstein on Jan 2, 2009 8:40 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Actually, you are dead wrong.
Sorry, but you must be forgetting that these are MLB’ers we talking about here, Not LL’ers. I am sure Barry did not give a shit that the crowd was saying anything to him. I am sure he blocks all that shit out.
If that is true (which none of us will ever know) about Manny trying to block out the crowd noise with earphones, then that is pretty soft.
So the Center fielder has to run over to him to get his attention while Manny is listening to La Vida Loca?
Doesn’t belong on a baseball field.
I Don't Tolerate Intolerance!
Jeremy Affeldt Ready To Make His Father Proud
by Giant among Angels on Jan 2, 2009 11:03 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I’m sorry, but this whole thing just seems silly. If it doesn’t detract from his playing ability, why do you care?
by Viliphied on Jan 2, 2009 12:09 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
My whole point was that it disrespects the game and is not needed in the game. This is just one of the many reasons why I do not want Manny on the Giants roster.
Ask your old college coach or someone who respects all aspects of the game and I guarantee you that they will agree.
I Don't Tolerate Intolerance!
Jeremy Affeldt Ready To Make His Father Proud
by Giant among Angels on Jan 2, 2009 12:28 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
why does it matter?
to me “respecting the game” is playing within the rules, performing to the best of your ability, and not doing anything to hurt your team. MP3 sunglasses don’t violate any of those.
by Viliphied on Jan 2, 2009 12:33 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
“Hey this game bores me. I know, I ’ll listen to my music to keep me interested in this boring game”
or
“Hey, "F” those FO guys. I’m going to listen to music like I dont care about any of this. I’ll show them!"
or
My analogy:
Manny with MP3 earphones is to Bored LL’er playing right field picking daisies facing towards the OF fence.
In my eyes that disrespects the game.
I Don't Tolerate Intolerance!
Jeremy Affeldt Ready To Make His Father Proud
by Giant among Angels on Jan 2, 2009 12:42 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
but now you’re assuming what his thought process must be. It being Manny, you might be right, but you’re still making unfounded assumptions. What if the music helps him concentrate? What if he’s a better baseball player and teammate because he can be more relaxed out in the field?
These might not be the case either, and you might be right, but saying something is always wrong because of what you think the motivation might be is a little silly to me
by Viliphied on Jan 2, 2009 12:50 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
You’re right those assumptions may or may not be correct.
If they work for him to help him concentrate, then great. I just dont think that those belong in the game of baseball.
Ok. We agree to disagree, ok?
OK
I Don't Tolerate Intolerance!
Jeremy Affeldt Ready To Make His Father Proud
by Giant among Angels on Jan 2, 2009 1:05 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I think this is more of a safety issue than a “respect for the game” issue. If he collides with the SS or CF on a ball and doesn’t hear someone call him off because he is wearing earphones, then that is just stupid.
by Lars The Wanderer on Jan 2, 2009 1:20 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
yeah
that’s why i had my “doesn’t interfere with his performance” caveat above
by Viliphied on Jan 2, 2009 1:40 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe he’s listening to Anthony Robbins motivational tapes on there, so it’s helping his performance.
My adopted Giant: "Raptor Jesus" Guzman
by Goofus on Jan 2, 2009 2:02 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe the entire team is mic'd up.
And they’re all chanting some ragga.
“Om Manny throwit om…”
Who has the fun?
Is it always the man with the gun?
- The Stranglers
by victor frankenstein on Jan 2, 2009 4:54 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
IS he the GIANT from Shallow Hal?
I Don't Tolerate Intolerance!
Jeremy Affeldt Ready To Make His Father Proud
by Giant among Angels on Jan 2, 2009 5:44 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I want the Giants to stay the hell away from old position players. He will be declining and we will have both Rowand and Manny in the outfield both with big contracts. Im more on the side of developing the youth and giving them a shot rather than having another “prick asshole” playing lousy LF. BTW THIS “Prick Asshole” had a much better supporting cast around him when he won those WS.
I Don't Tolerate Intolerance!
Jeremy Affeldt Ready To Make His Father Proud
by Giant among Angels on Jan 1, 2009 6:02 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Tell me...
Who do the Giants have who could hit even half as good as Manny in a future LF position? Sandoval? He’s going to be just as bad as Manny if he doesn’t stop raiding the fridge every night. Manny blocks no one, he can be had for pretty reasonable money since there is no interest in them, and he basically makes the team pencilled in favorites for the NL West.
Complaining about payroll structure is lame, it’s not your money and the Giants spend a much lower percentage of revenues on payroll than they did 6 years ago, since Giants payroll is within $10 million of 2002 while revenues in baseball have skyrocketed. This ain’t the freakin’ Royals here, if you want minimum dollars per win go be a Marlins fan.
by Bitter Fan on Jan 1, 2009 10:09 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
This is nuts
The Giants have a finite payroll. Spending money on one player means not spending money on another. Even the Yankees top out at some point and that stupid contract they signed Carl Pavano to means that they can’t sign Carlos Beltran. You get that, right? You get that if Manny wanted $159 million per season, that would be NOT good, right, even if it isn’t my money? So if $159 million per season is too much, how much isn’t too much? That’s the debate. The debate is not whether it’s my money or not.
Saving countless runs with my Brian Horwitz
by lyricalkiller on Jan 2, 2009 6:46 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
THANK YOU!!
Well said.
Sergio Romo: striking out professional hitters since 2005.
by Lyle on Jan 2, 2009 9:17 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Name says it al....
You tell me … Where can I get ahold of your crystal ball? Both you and I have no idea if Manny will be anywhere near as good as he was last year, If he is like any other aging ball player then he will probably decline in production to a certain extent.
Who is your source that says Manny can be had for “pretty reasonable” money? I am more concerned about the future rather than the immediate present when it comes to big contracts. I want TImmy locked down. In no way whatsoever do I want Manny’s 60-70-80M contract to interfere with that.
That Marlins fan comment is pretty bush.
I Don't Tolerate Intolerance!
Jeremy Affeldt Ready To Make His Father Proud
by Giant among Angels on Jan 2, 2009 7:05 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
and the other one that we loved so much never won us anything.
Have you been drinking?
No , really.
Who has the fun?
Is it always the man with the gun?
- The Stranglers
by victor frankenstein on Jan 1, 2009 6:18 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
no, but you have. That victory champagne must have hit you sometime around the seventh inning of game six and you forgot everything that happened afterwards. I’ve enjoyed the little triumphs along the way just as much as you have, but to most fans and ALL fans of other teams that I deal with on a daily basis, we’re known as the team that hasn’t won a world championship since 1954. When I point to to divisional titles, world series appearances, and wild cards, I’m actually kind of embarrassed. And if you don’t think Barry’s horrible playoff performances in every year except for 2002 contributed to the Giants’ never winning a ring, then please get me the name of that champagne so I can have some too.
Brian Sabean's dad- will make a few phone calls to help his son find a new job after next season
by rxmeister on Jan 2, 2009 5:59 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Nah , it's just that one line.
and the other one that we loved so much never won us anything.
Gives the impression that you blame Bonds for not singlehandedly delivering a championship.
Who has the fun?
Is it always the man with the gun?
- The Stranglers
by victor frankenstein on Jan 2, 2009 8:55 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
well, he WAS the best player, and his playoff performances were pretty pathetic. Needless to say they don’t even make it there without him, but still when you’re trying to get over the top you rely on your best player to take you there.
Brian Sabean's dad- will make a few phone calls to help his son find a new job after next season
by rxmeister on Jan 2, 2009 9:41 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Gonna go ahead and call bullshit
he wasn’t making the pitching change decisions in the world series. If we have a sem-competent manager and the strike doesn’t happen, we’re not having this conversation, and it has nothing to do with what Barry did during that time. He was completely instrumental to the team’s success during that run.
by bondslegend on Jan 2, 2009 9:44 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
OK.
I just spent an inordinate – for me – amount of time on BR analyzing 2002 , and from what is available there I can confidently say that Barry Bonds did about everything in his power to win a World Series for San Francisco that year. (Except kidnap Troy Glaus)
Please , allow me to cherrypick.
NLDS – Against Atlanta’s pitching he struck out once in 17 AB.
Were they pitching around him? Four walks.
And when they pitched to him? Three HR.
NLCS – St. Louis DID try to pitch around him – 10 walks in 11 AB…yet he somehow managed to knock six runs in.
In the Series That Never Happened Because Of The Strike he really slacked off.
8 for 17 , with 13 BB
4 HR.
The RBI total looks bad , only six. Damn Richie and his .273 OBP anyway…
Barry didn’t strike out w/RISP in any crucial situation (In Game Six they were up 4 – 0. I suppose if he homered the’d have won – OK , it’s on him…)
Who has the fun?
Is it always the man with the gun?
- The Stranglers
by victor frankenstein on Jan 2, 2009 11:49 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
The payroll got fucked...
when Barry Zito said “These idiots are offering me this much money?” We’re past the point of no return.
by Bitter Fan on Jan 1, 2009 9:50 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
So then lets keep fucking it?
I dont agree
I Don't Tolerate Intolerance!
Jeremy Affeldt Ready To Make His Father Proud
by Giant among Angels on Jan 2, 2009 7:07 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
defense doesn’t count
We don't really have that much pitching depth. We don't really have that much pitching depth. FOR GOD SAKE, VERUCA, DON'T GO FAKE TRADING JONATHAN SANCHEZ. We don't really have that much pitching depth
by oldjacket on Jan 1, 2009 3:09 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Why does it have to be either about the money or about his defense? Why can’t we say that his defense, while not preventing from being a good player, is still bad enough to prevent him from being worth the money he’s going to get?
..so allow me to present Tim Lincecum and Matt Cain as two sweet, sweet bottles of warming hooch.
by Cookyman on Jan 1, 2009 3:14 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
that’s the rightest thing I’ve heard in weeks
We don't really have that much pitching depth. We don't really have that much pitching depth. FOR GOD SAKE, VERUCA, DON'T GO FAKE TRADING JONATHAN SANCHEZ. We don't really have that much pitching depth
by oldjacket on Jan 1, 2009 3:44 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
/blushes
..so allow me to present Tim Lincecum and Matt Cain as two sweet, sweet bottles of warming hooch.
by Cookyman on Jan 1, 2009 3:49 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
New toy. Look out , y'all.
Who has the fun?
Is it always the man with the gun?
- The Stranglers
by victor frankenstein on Jan 1, 2009 2:52 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
It does seem odd that he would make us the favorites to win the West, when just a few months ago we had almost no shot at .500, and yet I’m strongly opposed. I guess this is growing up.
Saving countless runs with my Brian Horwitz
by lyricalkiller on Jan 1, 2009 2:58 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Using Grant’s handy-dandy salary chart for the San Francisco Giants, we can see that their current salaries for the 2009 team are as follows:
Barry Zito: $18.5 million
Aaron Rowand: $12 million
Randy Winn: $8.3 million
Dave Roberts: $6.5 million
Bengie Molina: $6 million
Noah Lowry: $4.5 million
Matt Cain: $2.7 million
Tim Lincecum: $1 million
Rest of roster: $7million
Deferred payments:
Barry Bonds: $5 million
Armando Benitez: $1.6 million
Off-season signings:
Jeremy Affeldt: $4 million
Bob Howry: $2.75 million
Edgar Renteria: $7 million
Randy Johnson: $8 million
Grand total: $94.85 million
Let’s assume that, at the low end of the spectrum, Manny will get two years at $20 million per year. This would put the Giants total payroll for 2009 at $114.85 million, and I just can’t see the Giants stretching the payroll that much to accommodate him.
by deuce deuce on Jan 1, 2009 3:12 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
lol
dave roberts makes more than bengie molina
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on Jan 1, 2009 3:13 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
lol
dave roberts makes more than the guy who made my egg mcmuffin this morning
Wall-E for Best Picture 2008
by Useful_Idiot on Jan 1, 2009 3:21 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Would pinstripes clear your vision?
YOUR SAN FRANCISCO GIANTS:“The Left Coast Yankees!”
Who has the fun?
Is it always the man with the gun?
- The Stranglers
by victor frankenstein on Jan 1, 2009 3:20 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Omar Vizquel's deferred payment
of $0.75 million should be on there as well.
And the thing about deferred payments is that they have accrued interest over the years, so they’re likely significantly higher than the listed price.
Hector Sanchez: really getting tired of playing baseball in foreign countries...
by tedfordfan on Jan 2, 2009 8:56 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
A few things to consider...
1. Manny provides protection in a line-up that has none.
2. By signing Manny you prevent the Dodgers from getting him. Although that is mostly Sabean logic.
3. It sets the table for future deals that while not being blockbusters could set the table for a nice Giants 09 run.
#1 Nick Swisher fan...but not in a stalker way.
by SwisherFan33 on Jan 1, 2009 3:13 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
how is #3 true?
if anything it cramps our payroll and prevents us from making big deals.
by boonitez on Jan 1, 2009 3:29 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
spending money allows you to spend more money?
We don't really have that much pitching depth. We don't really have that much pitching depth. FOR GOD SAKE, VERUCA, DON'T GO FAKE TRADING JONATHAN SANCHEZ. We don't really have that much pitching depth
by oldjacket on Jan 1, 2009 3:58 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe he means trades
Wall-E for Best Picture 2008
by Useful_Idiot on Jan 1, 2009 4:06 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
1. ho evidence that protection exists or matters
2. this is actually true. The signing of Manny would probably result in a 5-6 game net swing between the Giants and the Dodgers
3. non-sensical.
Flossing a dead horse
by kenshin1 on Jan 1, 2009 4:15 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't understand your first point
Protection for who? Do you mean that with Manny in the lineup, other players would get more pitches to hit?
Wall-E for Best Picture 2008
by Useful_Idiot on Jan 1, 2009 4:45 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah
Sorry, I do mean trades…as my buddy barenakedladies likes to do, I imagine Sanchez trades left and right.
I don’t think you can discredit having a hitter of Manny’s caliber protecting the hitter in front of him and the hitter behind him. PItchers are less likely to walk the hitter in front of Manny to get to Manny, and with Manny’s OBP, if he gets on base at the high rate that he usually does, it provides the defense less options for the hitter after Manny, since there is at least one runner on. Being a Beane fan, I don’t subscribe to a lot of the myths of baseball that Joe Morgan does, but Manny presence in the line-up effects how the defense handles hitters around him.
#1 Nick Swisher fan...but not in a stalker way.
by SwisherFan33 on Jan 1, 2009 4:50 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
studies...
have pretty extensively looked at protection and have not found a whole lot of merit to it. If it is real, then it should be detectable.
Flossing a dead horse
by kenshin1 on Jan 1, 2009 4:52 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
it makes sense to me how having a hitter of manny’s ability in the line up could effect the way other batters are pitched to. ethier made some comments last year about how he saw much better pitches to hit with manny in the line up and he put up some big numbers with manny hitting behind him. its not proof or anything, but i think there is some merit to it.
by TimLincecumIsGod on Jan 1, 2009 5:17 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
the studies I've seen used enormous parameters
I don’t think its fair to conclude that is was undetectable based on the ones I’ve seen. Has anyone examined Dodger batters before and after Manny?
by Lovejoy on Jan 1, 2009 6:25 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
If it is detectable...
…the STATS LAIR will be all OVER it.
…
/looks around
…
/looks at watch
/
Who has the fun?
Is it always the man with the gun?
- The Stranglers
by victor frankenstein on Jan 1, 2009 6:31 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Either way I don’t think it’s important.
The biggest problem with the Giants lineup was not the huge amount of walks issued to our best hitters. It was the fact that our best hitters were barely above average.
Whatever you think about Manny, the least important thing about his addition is what kind of pitches Bengie Molina is going to see on his account.
We don't really have that much pitching depth. We don't really have that much pitching depth. FOR GOD SAKE, VERUCA, DON'T GO FAKE TRADING JONATHAN SANCHEZ. We don't really have that much pitching depth
by oldjacket on Jan 1, 2009 7:00 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
But the hitters in front of Manny
will likely be Molina or Sandoval, neither of which in capable of taking a walk, so pitchers won’t have to worry about throwing strikes no matter who hits behind them.
Hector Sanchez: really getting tired of playing baseball in foreign countries...
by tedfordfan on Jan 2, 2009 8:58 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
lolwut
Manny would bat 3rd, so it’d likely be Winn or Lewis batting in front of him, and molina or sandoval hitting behind him
by Viliphied on Jan 2, 2009 12:14 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Manny fits in a cleanup spot.
Sergio Romo will gladly hand you a bench to sit on / GIANTSPACE™ / Adopted brother of the AnVil
by SoFa King Mike on Jan 2, 2009 12:20 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
3rd would be better
imo and you wouldn’t have the “players in front of him can’t take a walk” issue
by Viliphied on Jan 2, 2009 12:26 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
MRam...
Puts us in the drivers seat and with our pitching staff, virtually assures us of a divisional title.His bat and presence would be Bondslike in terms of making some of our other hitters better.
Although his defense leaves much to be desired, It still is way better than what Bonds had during his last three playing years. I say go for it…I’ll worry about his defense after we win the NL West. Whats the Matter with you guys? Don’t you see how the Dodgers improved last year once Manny was on board? The Giants would have to be nuts not to go after him!!!
"Buy High-Sell Low"--The Brian Sabean Method Of Trading
by Mordy From Monsey on Jan 1, 2009 3:35 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
His bat and presence would be Bondslike in terms of making some of our other hitters better.
Was that ever fully realized outside of 2002? Which in itself was questionable because it was a confluence of the steep side of the “pitch around Bonds” curve and Santiago’s chemical experimentation. In later years Barry thought about all the reading he could catch up on while idling on base.
Who has the fun?
Is it always the man with the gun?
- The Stranglers
by victor frankenstein on Jan 1, 2009 3:46 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Look at the 2004 Giants
http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/SFG/2004.shtml
That team had exactly three above average hitters (aside from Bonds) – Snow, Durham, and Mohr, and they only got 1080 AB’s combined.
Then you have AJ and Yorvit combining for a full season of below average offense, Neifi Perez with 320 AB’s in which neither his OBP nor his SLG reached .300 (take a moment to let that sink in), and a couple hundred of AB’s going to all kinds of Ransoms and Ledees.
Except for that, you’ve got Feliz, Alfonzo, Cruz, and Grissom, all hitting very close to average.
That sounds like a pretty average offense, maybe a bit above average. And yet we scored 850 runs (that’s 5.25 a game), 2nd in the NL, and only 5 runs behind first place. Replace Bonds with a league average hitter and we’d never sniff 800 runs.
..so allow me to present Tim Lincecum and Matt Cain as two sweet, sweet bottles of warming hooch.
by Cookyman on Jan 1, 2009 4:16 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
/mumbles something about ’a battle of wits"
/searches frantically through pockets
/hangs head
Who has the fun?
Is it always the man with the gun?
- The Stranglers
by victor frankenstein on Jan 1, 2009 5:12 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Not that hard to understand
It’s not really that hard to understand how the Giants scored 850 runs in 2004. And you are correct to attribute much of it to Barry Bonds, who set a major league record with an OBP of .609 (!) enroute to an amazing 1.421 OPS. That improved the Giants’ team OPS by something like 60 points, which by itself is worth about 120 runs.
The Giants team OPS was .795 that season, as opposed to just .703 last season. Using the back of the envelope formula for converting team OPS to its runs scored, we add 450 to 200 times the amount the Giants’ OPS exceedsd .600.
In 2004, we add 390 (200 times .195) to 450, projecting the Giants at 840 runs. They actually scored 850.
Last season we add 206 (200 times .103) to 450, projecting the Giants with 656 runs. They actually scored 640.
So if you would like the Giants to score around 850 runs again, “all” they have to do is improve their team OPS by about 100 points. If they could find one player who would receive about 10% of their total plate appearances and put up an OPS of around 1.700, that would be “all” they would need, assuming everything else remained the same.
Manny Ramirez isn’t going to put up an OPS of 1.700. Even Barry Bonds didn’t quite make it THAT high. In fact, his 1.421 in 2004 was his career high. But Manny might put up an OPS over 1.000, which would add something around 60 runs to the Giants’ total if he received enough plate appearances. Edgar Renteria is sure to add at least SOME more runs — and might add a lot, given that he is replacing Brimar Boquel. The question then becomes how many Pablo Sandoval and perhaps Aaron Rowand can add, and how few Randy Winn, Fred Lewis, Bengie Molina and whoever plays second can lose from last year.
Manny Ramirez can’t by himself make the Giants a great team — but he might bring them to .500 or slightly above.
If you want to see how the 2004 Giants scored so many runs, look to see that JT Snow had a better year than anyone thought possible and that Barry Bonds was flat-out AMAZING — in part because he created so much fear from opposing teams that they walked him FAR too often (a whopping — almost unbelievable — 232 times).
We can’t predict which with much certainty which players will have good and bad years, but we CAN predict the effect on a team’s runs scored if their players have AVERAGE years with the bat. And to a limited extent, we can even predict which players will have seasons that are above or below their career averages — or at least above or below where they performed the previous sesaon.
by sharksrog on Jan 1, 2009 11:43 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I Think We're Done Here.
Nice Job Sharksrog.
The clock doesn't matter in baseball. Time stands still or moves backwards. Theoretically, one game could go on forever. Some seem to.-Herb Caen
My adopted son Matt Downs . Utility Infielder with a Bat !
by nvsfg on Jan 2, 2009 9:22 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
so you’re saying that if there’s one great player out there, but this one great player doesn’t put you over the top, you shouldn’t be interested in acquiring him at all?? If Manny makes you a much better team in 2009, which he does, you should want him anyway. I don’t see how any NL west team would be better than the Giants in 2009 if we sign him, and once you get into the playoffs with a rotation like we have, we can certainly have a shot at winning it all.
Brian Sabean's dad- will make a few phone calls to help his son find a new job after next season
by rxmeister on Jan 2, 2009 9:48 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
depends.
how long would you go?
2 years and I would be on board.
3 years okay.
4 years, now we’re talking about hamstringing future teams.
5 years GTAFO.
We don't really have that much pitching depth. We don't really have that much pitching depth. FOR GOD SAKE, VERUCA, DON'T GO FAKE TRADING JONATHAN SANCHEZ. We don't really have that much pitching depth
by oldjacket on Jan 2, 2009 10:00 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
so you’re saying that if there’s one great player out there, but this one great player doesn’t put you over the top, you shouldn’t be interested in acquiring him at all?? If Manny makes you a much better team in 2009, which he does, you should want him anyway.
You have certainly argued the many points for picking up Manny well. I just feel like the Giants have been down this road before, and I don’t think that winning the west in 2009 is that important. Winning in 2011,12,13,14, and 15 would make me feel a lot better. Unless the cost and terms of the contract are controlled, I’m not sure I want to deal with Manny. I’m with oldjacket, but I would rather not see anything past 2 years.
Would I like to see the Giants contend in 2009 ? You bet, but not at a cost that would hurt the team past 2010. As painful as it was in some respects, I enjoyed watching the 2008 team with it’s mix of young, old, “too old”, good and bad. I would rather they build a team and farm than try to buy off the fans for a year or two. As long they win one before I take the dirt nap, I’m good.
The clock doesn't matter in baseball. Time stands still or moves backwards. Theoretically, one game could go on forever. Some seem to.-Herb Caen
My adopted son Matt Downs . Utility Infielder with a Bat !
by nvsfg on Jan 2, 2009 1:51 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Manny is the mythological clubhouse cancer creature that the media has portrayed Bonds as. I’d rather have Barry back for the league minimum.
Brian Sabean figures that if he buys enough bottles, one of them is bound to have lightning in it.
by jasomack on Jan 1, 2009 4:26 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
This
In fact, the Ramirez story makes “this” make a lot of sense.
by Sabertooth on Jan 1, 2009 4:29 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Who has the fun?
Is it always the man with the gun?
- The Stranglers
by victor frankenstein on Jan 1, 2009 4:59 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Really?
You’d rather have Barry back with his bad knees, the hip surgery he just had, the court case hanging over his head and the always ongoing media circus?? I think your love for Barry has clouded your common sense. As for your comment about Manny being worse in the clubhouse than Barry, the facts don’t bear that out. Name one player on the Giants who is a personal friend of Barry’s. I think the only player who I have ever heard of being friendly with Barry is Bobby Bonilla. Sheffield was his friend for awhile but that didn’t end very well. Meanwhile Manny is close with several of his ex Red Sox teammates like David Ortiz and Pedro Martinez. Last time I heard Manny doesn’t have four lockers, a big screen TV and a lounge chair that nobody other than him is allowed to use. I also don’t remember Manny having any punchups with his teammates, while Barry has that Kent incident and another with Jason Christenson. Barry’s behavior was overlooked by us Giant fans because he was such a great player. However you have to face the facts. Barry is not a good teammate or a good person.
Brian Sabean's dad- will make a few phone calls to help his son find a new job after next season
by rxmeister on Jan 1, 2009 6:02 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
There are definite downsides to signing bonds, but...
He’d be cheap, and short term. Waaay cheaper than Manny, and shorter term.
by Sabertooth on Jan 1, 2009 6:11 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I also don’t remember Manny having any punchups with his teammates
This is true. Manny’s teammates were not old enough to pick on yet..
by Lars The Wanderer on Jan 1, 2009 6:18 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Because there's no reason to argue when you don't really care.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
by Bhaakon on Jan 1, 2009 6:24 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Also, Kevin Youkilis disagrees with you.
by Lars The Wanderer on Jan 1, 2009 6:21 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I think if you ask Red Sox players candidly, most will tell you that Youkilis is a bigger ass than Manny. I heard his teammates took Youk aside last year to talk about his attitude. Not that I wouldn’t love to have a player like Youkilis, but his teammates think he is selfish and cares more for his personal stats over winning.
Brian Sabean's dad- will make a few phone calls to help his son find a new job after next season
by rxmeister on Jan 2, 2009 6:03 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
The same can be said for Jeff Kent.
by Lars The Wanderer on Jan 2, 2009 6:07 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly
Bonds and Ramirez are both prima donnas. Kent and Youk are both dicks. Kent is also a racist. But somehow Ramirez hitting Youk is better than Bonds hitting Kent?
..so allow me to present Tim Lincecum and Matt Cain as two sweet, sweet bottles of warming hooch.
by Cookyman on Jan 2, 2009 8:12 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
who cares anyway?? Bonds being an ass and Kent being an ass didn’t stop the Giants’ from winning any games. Why would the presence of Manny be a problem??
Brian Sabean's dad- will make a few phone calls to help his son find a new job after next season
by rxmeister on Jan 2, 2009 9:50 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
You: Bonds is clubhouse cancer.
Me: So is Manny.
You: Who cares about clubhouse cancer??
..so allow me to present Tim Lincecum and Matt Cain as two sweet, sweet bottles of warming hooch.
by Cookyman on Jan 2, 2009 12:27 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
lol dude what kind of argument is that?
No shit you’re going to hear about fights that happen in the clubhouse. But if Barry did have any good buddies how would anyone know? THIS JUST IN ON ESPN! BARRY BONDS HAS MADE A FRIEND! You only hear about negative shit in the press, and unless you yourself are Barry’s bff, you have no idea who he’s friends with. And Gary Sheffield’s an ass, too. I’m not saying Barry’s a good guy, I’m saying I don’t know and you don’t either. Both him and Manny are pretty terrible teammates, but Bonds has been a lot less outwardly dickish (at least in his later years.)
by boonitez on Jan 2, 2009 7:55 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Me too
Manny is trouble and his contract will be long-term trouble. Stay away. And that goes for Crede too!
Don't believe everything you think.
by wcovington on Jan 2, 2009 11:36 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
signing Crede to a 1 year deal would be “long-term trouble?”
by FluLikeSymptoms on Jan 2, 2009 12:35 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Who would Manny be blocking
Lewis? Bowker? EME?
by wilriv21 on Jan 1, 2009 4:55 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Sort of OT (but kinda not , in a way)
What’s the story with Nik? Does he even play ball?
Who has the fun?
Is it always the man with the gun?
- The Stranglers
by victor frankenstein on Jan 1, 2009 5:51 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
He Was Not Even A Starter On His High School Team
He is in college now and isn’t even a member of the baseball team.
by giantsrainman on Jan 1, 2009 7:14 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
We don’t really know, truthfully.
We don't really have that much pitching depth. We don't really have that much pitching depth. FOR GOD SAKE, VERUCA, DON'T GO FAKE TRADING JONATHAN SANCHEZ. We don't really have that much pitching depth
by oldjacket on Jan 1, 2009 7:01 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
yes. the end. do not want.
Todd Jennings: If he's on the DL, he can't suck as much, right?
by Speedforthewin on Jan 2, 2009 6:59 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
If
getting Manny means we can dump Scott on the Yankees or White Sox, than I am all for this.
Hell dump Scott for Swisher.
Swisher at 1st, Manny in LF, Winn in CF, Lewis in RF sounds like an NL West title to me and a MUCH better offense.
by Hobbes2d on Jan 1, 2009 6:21 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Who is this legendary Scott player? And why on earth would the Yankees want him?
by m34josh on Jan 1, 2009 9:59 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
