Instant Replay Doesn't Help
by capnk on Sep 3, 2008 9:07 PM PDT
39 comments
A-Rod hit what looked like a home run off the right field foul pole against the Rays today, and it was contested in MLB's first use of instant replay. After umpires consulted the replay, they upheld the home run call.
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080903&content_id=3412816&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb
But watch the clip from the TV broadcast. The Yankees announcers point out that the ball clearly hits a catwalk in foul territory.
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haha. It doesn’t help? It was a home run, was called so, and was upheld as one.
It seems you think it wasn’t, but slow motion enlargement of the image, as shown on espn, and the mlb link you show, show the ball hitting to the right of the pole, meaning fair.
Adoptive Parent of Francisco Peguero. He can throw, he can run, he can hit(fastballs), and he's Dominican. What else do you need to know?
by haverecords on Sep 3, 2008 9:13 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Eh?
The part that it hit was in fair territory.
Last of the Ninth - Photography Site / jamesvenes.com - Blog
by Flashfire on Sep 3, 2008 9:32 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Actually, you do have a point
If the yellow line behind the pole is the cutoff for the back wall/catwalk, it did hit to the left of it which would be foul if that’s what the ground rules are.
I wonder if the ground rules of each place are known by the ‘home office.’
Last of the Ninth - Photography Site / jamesvenes.com - Blog
by Flashfire on Sep 3, 2008 9:34 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
That yellow line against the far wall looked weird to me. Maybe it was just the camera angles, but it did not seem to be along the same line as the left field line extended past the foul pole. Instead it looked to be in toward center field a bit. Do we even know for sure that that line was indeed there to indicate fair vs foul territory? If so, what kind of crazy ass homerun would it be that would pass the foul pole in fair territory and then tail instead of hook (assuming a RH-hitter) so that it would hit the far wall “fair”?
by non sequitur on Sep 3, 2008 10:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is all I can find on the ground rules for the Trop that may even come close to relating to this
CATWALKS, LIGHTS AND SUSPENDED OBJECTS
1) Batted ball strikes catwalk, light or suspended object over fair territory:
- Batted ball that strikes either of the lower two catwalks, lights or suspended objects in fair territory: Home Run.
- Batted ball that is not judged a home run and remains on a catwalk, light or suspended object: Two Bases.
- Batted ball that is not judged a home run and strikes a catwalk, light or suspended object in fair territory shall be judged fair or foul in relation to where it strikes the ground or is touched by a fielder. If caught by fielder, batter is out and runners advance at own risk.
2) Batted ball strikes catwalk, light or suspended object over foul territory: DEAD BALL
Last of the Ninth - Photography Site / jamesvenes.com - Blog
by Flashfire on Sep 4, 2008 1:22 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Then again, why should the yellow line behind the fair pole matter?
It’s when it passes the fair pole, not where it lands.
Last of the Ninth - Photography Site / jamesvenes.com - Blog
by Flashfire on Sep 3, 2008 9:39 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Which I think is what they ultimately decided happened, because it clearly hits foul, but wraps around fair.
by giants9107 on Sep 3, 2008 10:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I dont know if it was
but if it wasn’t, it counts as the one that hit the stairs for a hr in Yankee satdium, so now he’s even
"I think I was the best player I ever saw"
Willie Mays, you ain't kidding
by CB30 on Sep 3, 2008 10:02 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
THIS TIME IT COUNTS!!! (or not)
Omar...I'm done with you. Hello Darren Ford! Come to papa.
by PacBellBoozer on Sep 3, 2008 10:59 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
AWKTOBER
Michael Ambort: Dude hits TATERS.
Bay City Ball
by xanthan on Sep 4, 2008 5:38 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Follows SEDTEMBER
Fred Lewis can stand under my umbrella.
31 May 2007, 21:38 EST - the last time Matteh's career W-L wasn't below.500
by S.F. Giangst on Sep 4, 2008 8:45 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You mean GREPTEMBER!
Like Barry Zito, I'm mildly half-OK.
by EliminateMe on Sep 4, 2008 9:48 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It was dismaying to learn that IR was specifically for HR calls. I thought it would be used more extensively.
"Ain't got a hope in Hell - that's my belief." - Bon Scott
by victor frankenstein on Sep 3, 2008 11:15 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Yuk to that.
That would mean ten minute delays every third inning. I won’t have any watchable sports left.
"Don't trust anyone under the age of 30" - Brian Sabean
by Smotheredinhugs on Sep 4, 2008 7:03 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
This whole process took about three and a half minutes, including a 2:15 review.
This idea that games are somehow going to be extended by half an hour or so is just absurd.
Last of the Ninth - Photography Site / jamesvenes.com - Blog
by Flashfire on Sep 4, 2008 9:29 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The camera angle was really bad (seriously, and off-center angle like that will screw with your perception), and I’m not going to assume that I can account for something like 400 feet of parallax just because it’s being presented in high speed (high speed = slow-mo, by the way).
The play was obviously close (close enough to be inconclusive on video replay), and barring the umpire actually having a decent angle that we didn’t get to see, there’s no reasonable evidence there to suggest that the original call was incorrect.
Therefore, I suggest rather that Instant Replay IS working. A call was made, subsequently reviewed, and in the absence of satisfactory contrary evidence, it was upheld. That sounds like a perfectly functional system to me.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Sep 4, 2008 2:58 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Definitely a home run in my opinion
I just looked at some full-screen versions of photos down the lines of the ballpark at Seatdata’s site and it does appear that yellow line beyond the fair poles line up with it against the back of the dome, but what the announcers seemed to miss is that the ball can hit anywhere back there and it only matters where it crosses the fair pole. I think they were confused.
To be honest, I’m not sure what purpose the line on the back wall serves. It’s not like the ball is going to stay straight down the line. It’s almost always hooking or slicing one way or the other.
Last of the Ninth - Photography Site / jamesvenes.com - Blog
by Flashfire on Sep 4, 2008 9:29 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, you’re right — the line on the back wall serves no purpose. The broadcasters on the SNY feed, especially Al Leiter I think, kept harping on the line but it’s as you say where it crosses the fair/foul pole that matters.
God damn you, Al Leiter.
by non sequitur on Sep 4, 2008 1:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
A-rod sucks at math
“There’s probably 800 players in the big leagues, and the odds of me being involved were probably 2-1,” Rodriguez said. “It’s funny. Somehow I find myself in those situations all the time. It was just nice to get the right call and get a fair ruling.”
A-rod HR / MLB HR =.5? He’s UNDERPAID!
Fred Lewis can stand under my umbrella.
31 May 2007, 21:38 EST - the last time Matteh's career W-L wasn't below.500
by S.F. Giangst on Sep 4, 2008 3:21 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I would argue that the reason instant replay “doesn’t work” is that it introduces such an arbitrary and capricious element into the game. Blown calls obviously change games, but why review only some of them — and the least game changing ones at that? Any blown out/safe call on the basepaths (or trapped vs. caught fly) changes the number of outs in an innings, which seems much more “game changing” to me, but these are apparently not important enough to review (no doubt do to the politics of negotiating with the union).
Two scenarios with enhanced drama to prove the point:
a) Tie Game. Top of the Ninth. Two out. Man on third. The batter hits a dribble to short and beats it out, allowing the go ahead run to score. But the 1B umpire mistakenly calls him out and ends the inning. In the bottom of the ninth, a player hits a ball off the top of the wall, called a double. After reviewing the play, the call is changed to a game-winning HR and the home team prevails by a run.
Who would argue that replay had made this game more fair?
b) Bottom of the ninth. Home team down by a run, 4-3. Two out. Nobody on. Batter grounds to SS and is thrown out to end the game, but the 1B umpire mistakenly calls him safe. Next batter hits a ball of the top of the wall ruled a double. A good play by the OF and well executed relay home holds the runner at 3B. But on protest, the umpires review the ball and change their ruling to HR. Two runs score and the home team wins.
Who would argue that replay allowed the umps to “get it right” in this game?
Really, all it’s going to take is the wrong call in the right situation and the hew and cry will begin again. And all of this conveniently overlooks the fact that nothing umpires do after a ball is put in play has anywhere near the affect on a baseball game that the home plates umpires strike zone does (conveniently because they’d never get the union to discuss using technology to call balls and strikes). To try to use technology to “get the game right” and NOT start with the strike zone, is in my mind akin to a doctor “treating” a man with a terminal illness by giving him a manicure and a shave. It may make the patient look more presentable, but as to improving his overall condition it’s somewhat dubious.
Get the hell out the way Bengie, Pablito's hit the show!
by Roger on Sep 4, 2008 6:12 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I think this is just a start
I hope they add a few more types of plays like catches and close plays at the bases.
Last of the Ninth - Photography Site / jamesvenes.com - Blog
by Flashfire on Sep 4, 2008 9:30 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
My understanding is they started with HR calls only because (a) they’re already reviewable in the sense that umpires consult and sometimes change their calls, (b) they’re infrequent enough to not completely bog down the game, and © the initial call of an HR doesn’t affect the rest of the play.
With live-ball plays (outfield catches, close outs at first) the initial call affects what happens to the rest of the play. Suppose a runner goes halfway from second to third on a ball to the outfield, the fielder misses the catch, and the runner goes to third without tagging. On reviewing the replay, the play is ruled an out – is the runner now out also, for failing to tag up?
Or, with runners on base and two outs, the batter grounds to third. On a close play at first he’s called out, but the runners keep going and score. On review the batter is ruled safe – what happens to the runners? Or, what if the first baseman throws home and the runner gets tagged out?
Like Barry Zito, I'm mildly half-OK.
by EliminateMe on Sep 4, 2008 10:01 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You really can't
Have replay on live-play situations. Baseball is not like football or soccer where a ref can blow a whistle and everyone stops.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on Sep 4, 2008 10:04 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
They complete the play in football first, anyway.
Last of the Ninth - Photography Site / jamesvenes.com - Blog
by Flashfire on Sep 4, 2008 10:23 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sometimes they do.
Replay could be used in more situations in baseball, but it would have to be fairly well defined:
Force outs with 2 outs.
Force outs with no other runners on base
Other base-outs with no other runners on base (at the time of the out).
Example. Batter hits a bases empty triple but is called out on the tag (Eugenio!). Replay could effectively be used in that circumstance. I can also recall a play this year where someone was forced out at 3rd, but video showed that the 3rd baseman did not actually catch the ball. (It was sitting on the ground next to him when the runner was ruled out)
I think the bigger problem is then how often do you use it ? Who determines that the play is close ? I don’t think you want to give the managers each a finite # of challenges.
Certainly a group of people could sit down and define what plays could be subject to replay without interfering with the live action of the game.
I don’t really think that is the biggest issue with using replay in baseball.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on Sep 4, 2008 10:43 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have no idea what you're on about here
Batter hits a ground ball with runner on first. Runner is “thrown out” at second, no double play. Play is challenged, call of out at second is overturned. 1st and 2nd, no outs instead of 1st, 1 out.
What exactly is the problem here? Every replay will create a “challenge situation” that would be contrasted with the situation that occurred on the play as it was ruled. If the second baseman, on the above play, threw the ball into the right field corner and the runner came around to score on the play, and the batting team would rather take the 1 run than the 2 on/no out situation, they don’t HAVE to challenge the call!
If the replays are all being “called by the replay booth”, that’s a different story, but I think that’s an inferior solution.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Sep 6, 2008 1:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually football had this same problem for years — a non-fumble ruled a fumble COULD be reviewed and overturned, but a fumble ruled a non-fumble COULDN’T. And they’ve only come close to a solution by essentially telling refs not to blow their whistles at the end of plays and players not to stop at the whistle. It’s a stupid solution that only makes an untenable situation crappily tenable.
If you’ve ever seen the NFL Films show on the Niners/Packers playoff game in 1998 (the TO game) you might remember that Packers refer to the blown call on Jerry Rice’s fumble very late in the game, as the play that caused Instant Replay to return to the NFL and one of them says that if they’d had Instant Replay in that game the Packers would have won it. It’s a sign of how screwed up instant replay systems can be that if they had had IR in that game, that play (which supposedly brought the system back) would have been unreviewable and would have stood as called.
Get the hell out the way Bengie, Pablito's hit the show!
by Roger on Sep 4, 2008 10:47 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And lest anybody miss my point
I’m not suggesting they have replay on missed calls on the bases. I’m saying don’t bother because it will damage the game in several ways. Just let the umps blow calls now and again. If anybody who was an NFL fan back in 1979 could take a time machine to the present and see how horribly that sport is officiated in virtually every game, they’d go back and try hard to convince people to just let it be.
Get the hell out the way Bengie, Pablito's hit the show!
by Roger on Sep 4, 2008 10:49 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly
A similar approach to baseball would result in players continuing to run the bases after being called out, players making plays on balls called foul, etc.
It would be lame in all sorts of ways.
IMO, bad calls are part of the game. I love technology, but not in baseball.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on Sep 4, 2008 12:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I love technology, but not in baseball.
Lights for night games, scoreboards, televised baseball, baseball on the radio, stadiums…heck, baseball bats, gloves, cleats, uniforms, baseballs themselves.
It seems to me that technology is integral to the game.
Bad calls are, indeed, part of the game. But so was the spitball at one time.
Only 835 games until the end of Zito's contract
by thehavenot on Sep 4, 2008 2:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
moral of the story: domes suck.
BROCK BOND LIKES HIS MARTINIS PUNCHED IN THE FACE, NOT STIRRED.
by SloIsLonelyForTheOrange on Sep 4, 2008 6:40 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Let’s remove the foul lines, foul poles and walls. They can be virtual. Only seen on TV, or at the park with the use of special glasses. That way we can have the green monster on Thursdays and the Wrigley ‘virtual ivy’ on Saturdays. Or maybe Tiger Stadium on retro night. And we can finally get rid of those pesky umpires- Such a waste of money.
"Don't trust anyone under the age of 30" - Brian Sabean
by Smotheredinhugs on Sep 4, 2008 7:19 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
They can be virtual. Only seen on TV,
So you mean like the NFL ?
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on Sep 4, 2008 8:11 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Let's replace all shortstops with adorable puppies!
by satyricrash on Sep 4, 2008 8:31 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Awwwwwwwww-mar
Fred Lewis can stand under my umbrella.
31 May 2007, 21:38 EST - the last time Matteh's career W-L wasn't below.500
by S.F. Giangst on Sep 4, 2008 8:44 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Let's replace all Giant's hitters with REAL hitters
Get the hell out the way Bengie, Pablito's hit the show!
by Roger on Sep 4, 2008 9:38 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Now you're just talking crazy talk.
Like Barry Zito, I'm mildly half-OK.
by EliminateMe on Sep 4, 2008 10:02 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
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