Post-Game Musings
When Joe Lefebvre was fired last year, most of us yawned. The offense was bad, sure, but how much of that was Lefebvre’s fault, and how much of that was the fault of the octogenarians in the lineup? I had my own problems with Lefebvre –a painful and deep-rooted phobia of silent letters, for one – but I had no idea if he was part of the problem with the wretched offense.
Carney Lansford was the replacement. As a major league hitter, Lansford wasn’t easy to label. He wasn’t a walking machine, but he generally exhibited good plate discipline. He wasn’t a slugger, but he hit enough homers to keep pitchers honest. Somewhere along the way, he found time to steal over 200 bases for his career. There was no reason to believe he would preach an especially aggressive approach, nor was there a reason to believer he would preach an especially patient approach. When he was hired, Lansford indicated that the Giants would focus on "selfless baseball", but that was the company line at the time. You couldn’t really expect him to say, "Small ball? What kind of 19th-century crap is that? We’re swinging for the fences, even if the count is 0-2."
At first glance, it would seem like Lansford has failed with whatever it was he was trying to do. The Giants probably aren’t going to break 100 home runs, and the team is dead last in runs scored. But how many players have really flopped this year? Brian Bocock, Omar Vizquel, John Bowker, Jose Castillo, and Eugenio Velez come to mind. Ted Williams wouldn’t have been able to help Bocock, and Vizquel was almost as bad last year with Lefebvre. Bowker came straight up from AA after his first good professional season, and even that breakout came with an iffy B/KK ratio. Jose Castillo has been frustrating organizations for several years now, and in April and May, Eugenio Velez was swinging like a boneless lemur. On which of these players are you prepared to judge a hitting coach?
A note of support for Lansford’s work: Fred Lewis has shown flashes of power, even if he’s called out on strikes far too often. Manny Burriss is making pitchers throw him strikes, driving the ball all over the field. Other than Vizquel, the veterans have either kept pace or improved over last year’s performance
Rebuttal to the note of support: The team is almost last in the world in taking walks. That has to be the most measurable aspect of a hitting coach’s influence. You can cherry pick players to make it seem like the team is doing okay, but it isn’t. The team can’t score, and a lot of that has to do with an impatient approach.
Rebuttal to the rebuttal: This team would struggle to hit 100 home runs if they were allowed to use aluminum bats. Of course they don’t take a lot of walks. If a pitcher falls behind to anyone in this lineup, that pitcher will challenge.
At the risk of sitting on the fence until I get splinters, I’ll have to put a big "incomplete" next to Carney Lansford right now. Things could have been worse – there was a chance this offense was going to be once-in-a-generation awful. Things aren’t good, brother, but they aren’t apocalyptic, either. There’s a chance that next year’s lineup will feature Pablo Sandoval, Manny Burriss, Travis Ishikawa, and other youngsters, so a column like this might have some more substance at the end of 2009.
Open hitting coach thread...
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52 comments
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It's pretty impossible to tell
These guys aren’t supposed to hit well, and they don’t.
So he is clearly not an amazing coach, turning water in wine.
However, it is essentially impossible to know how much better or worse they would be with someone else.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on
Sep 3, 2008 5:31 PM PDT
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He’s turned water into vitamin water!
Travis Denker can hit a little. That's why I drive his bus.
by oldjacket on
Sep 3, 2008 9:12 PM PDT
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I know, it tastes all vitaminy.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on
Sep 3, 2008 11:35 PM PDT
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I don’t like it because the vitamins are so watered down.
Trent Kline: Decentish. Also, my website is called ChatterBalks Dot Com. It's not being updated right now. Hope for more at your own risk.
by groug on
Sep 3, 2008 11:57 PM PDT
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Gimme a bottle of Flintstones vitamins any day!
by Natto on
Sep 3, 2008 11:59 PM PDT
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mmmmmm Flintstones!
by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on
Sep 5, 2008 11:26 AM PDT
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Me neither, really.
How about Kool-aid, then? Something ok, but very not miraculous.
Travis Denker can hit a little. That's why I drive his bus.
by oldjacket on
Sep 4, 2008 8:29 AM PDT
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No matter how bad Chili Con Carne is
He isn’t as ugly as any of the Rockies
by Lars The Wanderer on
Sep 3, 2008 5:36 PM PDT
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Hard to tell
It is indeed hard to tell how much a hitting coach is contributing, but I have been highly impressed with the positive changes Carney has helped Emmanuel Burriss make from the left side. Emmanuel is actually hitting WELL from the left side now, and even hit his first major-league homer from the left side.
When he came up, it wouldn’t have shocked me if Manny had NEVER hit a homer from the left side. It wouldn’t have shocked me if he had been forced to hit right-handed exclusively.
Again, we don’t really know how much credit for Manny’s improvement Carney deserves, but my feeling is that it is quite a bit.
by sharksrog on
Sep 3, 2008 5:40 PM PDT
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Burriss looking like a major leaguer — like a slap hitter who has been slap hittin’ since ’02 — is what prompted this post. I know Lansford has been working a lot with him.
by Grant on
Sep 3, 2008 7:10 PM PDT
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I agree...
I was about to write a similar post about Burriss as a lefty. I’m sure Carney
needs a season to get to know the merry-go-round of players he’s tasked
with improving.
by bgunn on
Sep 3, 2008 7:38 PM PDT
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I’m with you all the way on this. How Burriss looks right now is a testament both to Burriss’s ability to adjust quickly, and wise guidance from Carney. Hopefully it continues.
Adoptive Parent of Francisco Peguero. He can throw, he can run, he can hit(fastballs), and he's Dominican. What else do you need to know?
by haverecords on
Sep 3, 2008 8:36 PM PDT
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I know the “Smells like Cabbage. Small hands.” thing is from Austin Powers, but it’s reminding me of Rorschach.
“Possibly homosexual? Must investigate further.”
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
by jponry on
Sep 3, 2008 5:40 PM PDT
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i’ve always thought blb should be the hitting instructor
"ever so cynical yet whimsical giants related signature"
by The Gene Hackman on
Sep 3, 2008 6:46 PM PDT
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Or that Mays guy. What else does he do , exactly?
"Ain't got a hope in Hell - that's my belief." - Bon Scott
by victor frankenstein on
Sep 3, 2008 11:12 PM PDT
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Gives batting tips to Rob Schneider in the clubhouse
Adopted brother of the AnVil / GIANTSPACE™ returns!
by SoFa King Mike on
Sep 4, 2008 10:31 AM PDT
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I think he's been a success.
We all knew we would have a dreadful offense. I’m not so sure we can blame the lack of walks on Lansford. We just don’t have hitters who draw walks. Barry Bonds could be the hitting coach and these guys would likely still be last in that category. Molina is a guy who tries to put the ball in play. Same with Rowand. Bowker didn’t have any real high BB rate in the minors. Aurilia has never been a guy who walks a lot. Etc.
It’s no coincidence that the guys who had high OBP’s were Durham (who we know is patient and has a good eye), Winn, and Lewis.
Still I think we’ve seen some improvement with Lewis against LHP, and Burriss against RHP that probably would not have occurred under Lefebvre.
by Hobbes2d on
Sep 3, 2008 6:50 PM PDT
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Who knows? Without anything to measure, or at least the opinions of experienced baseball man, it’s hard to take a stand one way or the other.
by rotorueter on
Sep 3, 2008 7:05 PM PDT
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I approve
It seems as if Lewis has turned into a major leaguer, Burris i think has an average enough bat to stay because of his defense. I want to see if the improvement continues as some of the young hitting prospects come up. Its hard to make a definitive descion until his teachings reach all levels of the organization.
"I think I was the best player I ever saw"
Willie Mays, you ain't kidding
by CB30 on
Sep 3, 2008 7:19 PM PDT
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A question
Does Lansford really have the ability to dictate how hitting instruction is done in the minors? Or is there someone else in charge of developing the minor league hitting and the Giants’ batting coach is just the MLB Giants’ batting coach? Or is there no comprehensive system/philosophy in place (see Ortmeier, D.)?
by Johnny Disaster on
Sep 3, 2008 7:49 PM PDT
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I have no idea, good question
I meant that when the younger prospects from all the levels get to learn from him at the big league level, we will be able to tell if something seperates him from Lefebrve or any other past hitting coaches.
"I think I was the best player I ever saw"
Willie Mays, you ain't kidding
by CB30 on
Sep 3, 2008 8:23 PM PDT
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He’s part of the advisory group, but only part. The roving instructors/special assistants tend to be the main club emissaries, and most of the actual instruction is by the coaches on the minor league team. The development folks will report to Sabean, but for the most part the development people are an entity unto themselves, with their own hierarchy.
Lansford probably doesn’t have much input with the players in the minors he hasn’t seen in the Majors, but they might seek him out in some situations.
Adoptive Parent of Francisco Peguero. He can throw, he can run, he can hit(fastballs), and he's Dominican. What else do you need to know?
by haverecords on
Sep 3, 2008 8:51 PM PDT
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Is there any way to prove the ML hitting coach can influence BB's?
Even in moneyball they seemed convinced that this was a predisposition. I don’t think you can pin the lack of patience on the hitting coach at the major league level for a team’s lack of patience. It is hard to say if you can even pin it on the minor league instructors.
With that said, if we were going to be pointing fingers, I would be more inclined to blame the people in the lower levels than the guy in the show. To me, pointing the finger at Carney for the team not walking detracts from the debate.
I do think he has helped some of the younger players improve which Lefebvre didn’t really have a chance to do as there were not many young position players around during his tenure.
I would say this is a tough nut to crack.
Someone get Damon Minor's agent on the phone stat!
by fanofvanlandingham on
Sep 3, 2008 8:20 PM PDT
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Low strikeouts
Lots of walks weren’t a Carney Lansford calling card as a player. Low strikeouts were. After his first couple of seasons, Carney actually walked as often as he struck out — and that wasn’t because he walked a lot. The low strikeout totals allowed Carney to hit for a nice average despite not having much power.
by sharksrog on
Sep 4, 2008 12:52 AM PDT
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I think everyone's missing the important point here:
HE BROUGHT PEPPER BACK
by Sammy Danger on
Sep 3, 2008 8:22 PM PDT
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but is he bringing sexy back also?
"I think I was the best player I ever saw"
Willie Mays, you ain't kidding
by CB30 on
Sep 3, 2008 8:27 PM PDT
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NO PEPPER
Trent Kline: Decentish. Also, my website is called ChatterBalks Dot Com. It's not being updated right now. Hope for more at your own risk.
by groug on
Sep 3, 2008 9:34 PM PDT
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salt with a little pepa?
Just aksin.
Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."
by natteringnabob on
Sep 4, 2008 10:30 PM PDT
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Dude is a fellow Wilcox HS Charger!
How can I not approve?!
/Wilcox is a dump, but it was MY dump.
Bengie: Like an Aurilia kidney stone, slow-moving and tough to get out.
by juanboy on
Sep 3, 2008 9:14 PM PDT
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I went to Mountain View HS, and we were told about a HR Lansford hit at MVHS around 20 years earlier that cleared not the HR fence, which we didn’t have, but the fence to the homes that must have been well over 400 feet to LF.
by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on
Sep 5, 2008 11:32 AM PDT
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the offense
would be terrible with anyone as the hitting coach.
Of course they don’t take a lot of walks. If a pitcher falls behind to anyone in this lineup, that pitcher will challenge.
Interesting theory. Totally untested, as no one ever takes enough pitches to get ahead in the count. Well, since Ray-Ray was t-ray-ed
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN
by zenbitz on
Sep 3, 2008 10:22 PM PDT
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Fact:
Fred Lewis is third in the NL in pitches per plate appearance at 4.23.
Randy Winn (3.81, 36th in the league) has done pretty well also.
Like Barry Zito, I'm mildly half-OK.
by EliminateMe on
Sep 4, 2008 10:12 AM PDT
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FLEW and Winn are definitely selective hitters. Bengie is not, Aurilla can be. I hesitate to write the book on a lot of the younger guys.
Is it me or does Aaron Rowand swing at more bad pitches in hitter’s counts than any player in mlb?
Travis Denker can hit a little. That's why I drive his bus.
by oldjacket on
Sep 4, 2008 10:42 AM PDT
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Aaron Rowand is a hacker
Or at least, he is this season.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on
Sep 4, 2008 10:45 AM PDT
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Taking a quick look
his BB% this year is actually up from his career.
And so his is K%.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on
Sep 4, 2008 10:48 AM PDT
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I hesitate to call him a hacker.
He seems to get deep into the count, but then swings at garbage.
Maybe he thinks Chase Utley is hitting behind him.
Travis Denker can hit a little. That's why I drive his bus.
by oldjacket on
Sep 4, 2008 11:09 AM PDT
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As Grant pointed out, Lewis looks at a lot of called 3rd stikes. Might he be too picky?
Zooperstars, they quack me up!
by Goofus on
Sep 4, 2008 11:30 AM PDT
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I think
That Lewis’s most obvious improvement path is reducing his strikeouts.
I would like to see him take fewer close pitches with 2 strikes and engage a defensive swing.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on
Sep 4, 2008 12:43 PM PDT
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I just took a quick look
And lewis is pretty horrible w/ 2 strikes:
.173/.231/.257
7% BB percentage compared to 10% overall.
So, chances are when he gets to 2 strikes he isn’t gonna walk – so he should probably not be taking so many pitches.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on
Sep 4, 2008 12:50 PM PDT
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Everyone is pretty bad with two strikes.
League average hitter with two strikes in ’08: .189/.261/.288
Michael Ambort: Dude hits TATERS.
Bay City Ball
by xanthan on
Sep 4, 2008 1:37 PM PDT
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Sure
My point just being that once concern if Lewis starts swinging more on two strikes is that it will cause him to walk less.
But he doesn’t appear to be walking much on 2 strikes anyways so he might as well swing.
Altho I’m not totally convinced. Like I said – quick look.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on
Sep 4, 2008 3:29 PM PDT
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I look at it this way. Ray Durham batted .218 last year. Before he left, Durham was batted about .293 this season.
A gamer does NOT wear a foam finger, a dork does.
by SFGuy on
Sep 4, 2008 12:28 AM PDT
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incontrovertible evidence!`
Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.
by delorean on
Sep 4, 2008 8:46 AM PDT
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If you consider that Benjie, Richie and Winn have all improved from last year, it does become more compelling.
Zooperstars, they quack me up!
by Goofus on
Sep 4, 2008 9:38 AM PDT
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What's it called
when the pitcher throws the ball outside, and the batter swings, and somehow it goes into the opposite field?
I don’t remember that happening before. Now, maybe it’s because Pedro and the other Caribbean slop-hackers have gone away, but Pablo and several others seem to have (1) listened to Lansford (2) just know how to hit and haven’t been messed up by minor league coaches or (3) spent a lot of time watching the scenes in Major League 3 where Gus Cantrell finally teaches Downtown Anderson how to hit to the opposite field.
Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti. "I treat Timmy differently from most pitchers: I leave him alone."
by natteringnabob on
Sep 4, 2008 10:33 PM PDT
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I was at the game in Cincinnati (luxury suite – niiiice) when Eugenio Velez hit a HR. Over the fence, even. I think Carney deserves bonus points for that.
by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on
Sep 5, 2008 11:36 AM PDT
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