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Revised Poll: NL Cy Young

Goofus_tiny by Goofus on

(I deleted the previous post and re-posted with Santana as an option.  If you voted before, please vote again.)

I know it's been discussed before, but I'd like to see who people think should win the NL Cy Young.  Hard to imagine anyone besides Lincecum, Webb, Santana or Sabathia getting votes, so I'll include just those choices.

Please try to be as objective as possible when voting!  So as not to taint the results, I'll share my own opinion in the comments with everyone else.

Poll
Who should win?
Lincecum
229 votes
Santana
16 votes
Sabathia
14 votes
Webb
1 votes

260 votes | Poll has closed

This FanPost is reader-generated, and it does not necessarily reflect the views of McCovey Chronicles. If the author uses filler to achieve the minimum word requirement, a moderator may edit the FanPost for his or her own amusement.

0 recs | Comment 159 comments

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I still think Cole Hamels should be in there.

But I voted for CC.

by Evan on Sep 29, 2008 11:42 AM PDT   0 recs

I think that if you're going to suggest an alternative

You need to back it up. As a pretty heavy Hamels fan, I must admit that I’m not aware of Hamels being dramatically better in any category than the 4 candidates mentioned. What am I missing?

¿Julio is tourist in San Francisco? Harper's Bizarre!

by hairball on Sep 29, 2008 1:54 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I don’t think that he’s dramatically better, but as best I can tell without getting all scientific about it, he was just about as good as Santana and Lincecum, and better than Webb.

But I’m still voting for CC.

by Evan on Sep 29, 2008 2:06 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I'm pretty much in agreement with almost everything you have to say around here

but Hamels as good as Timmy?

Hamels: 14-10 (on a team that actually scores runs), 3.09 ERA, 145 ERA+ .86 K/IP, 3.7 K/BB
Timmy: 18-5, 2.62 ERA, 164 ERA+, 1.17 K/IP, 3.15 K/BB

I’ll take Timmy.

STEVE HOLM! refuses to be the odd man out.

by UnleashTheGore on Sep 29, 2008 2:49 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Hamels had to deal with a bandbox ballpark, a pennant race, and tougher competition. That may not be enough to even the scale, but it’s getting pretty close …

by Evan on Sep 29, 2008 2:52 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Maybe

Maybe it’s the fanboy in me, but Hamels seems like a more effective Rueter. I’d rather have the strikeout power-pitcher. What the hell do I know, though, I guess there’s a reason I’m not a GM.

STEVE HOLM! refuses to be the odd man out.

by UnleashTheGore on Sep 29, 2008 3:15 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Hamels throws 94 though.

"While conservatives tell you 'leave things alone and no one will lose,' and liberals tell you 'interfere a lot and no one will lose,' baseball says 'someone will lose.' Not only says it - but insists upon it! ... Democracy is lovely, but baseball's more mature." BVCE supports SF Dugout and Manny Burriss.

by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Sep 29, 2008 3:19 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

does he really?

I don’t watch the phillies often but I don’t remember him topping 90(he was around 89 the whole game) the few times I watched him.

by superk1ng on Sep 29, 2008 9:45 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I recall an interview where Lincecum mentioned facing Hamels in the batters box and said he was throwing 94.

"While conservatives tell you 'leave things alone and no one will lose,' and liberals tell you 'interfere a lot and no one will lose,' baseball says 'someone will lose.' Not only says it - but insists upon it! ... Democracy is lovely, but baseball's more mature." BVCE supports SF Dugout and Manny Burriss.

by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Sep 29, 2008 9:58 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Cole Hamels's average fastball is 90.4 MPH

per fangraphs.

Lincecum was either exaggerating for effect or just incorrect. I doubt Hamels was burning his limited supply of 94 Octane Gas on the opposing pitcher.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Sep 30, 2008 1:25 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I don’t know of many people who can correctly identify the speed of a pitch when they’re standing in against a pitcher. A few months ago I shook off the rust and stood in the batting cage. I got a couple 70 MPH pitches whistling up near my head. Let me tell you, those did not feel like 70. They felt like holy shit my head’s gonna cave in.

"While conservatives tell you 'leave things alone and no one will lose,' and liberals tell you 'interfere a lot and no one will lose,' baseball says 'someone will lose.' Not only says it - but insists upon it! ... Democracy is lovely, but baseball's more mature." BVCE supports SF Dugout and Manny Burriss.

by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Sep 30, 2008 7:37 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Its funny how perception changes, too

Take a few 90 mph pitches, and suddenly it seems like you can count to 10 before those 70 mph pitches reach the plate.

Eugeniooooooo!!!!

by FairweatherFan on Sep 30, 2008 11:29 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

The softball machine at the cage was busted

I really don’t want to have any 90 MPH pitches near my head in a softball game.

"While conservatives tell you 'leave things alone and no one will lose,' and liberals tell you 'interfere a lot and no one will lose,' baseball says 'someone will lose.' Not only says it - but insists upon it! ... Democracy is lovely, but baseball's more mature." BVCE supports SF Dugout and Manny Burriss.

by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Sep 30, 2008 11:50 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Bandbox..

Well, ERA+ is there.

The Basil Fawlty Moderating Strategy:
"We could run a nice blog here if we didn't have all these members getting in the way."
How is my adopted son almost twice as old as I am? Nevermind...Go Omar! Warm the Bench!

by WalrusMan on Sep 29, 2008 3:24 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

ERA+ IS NOT PARK ADJUSTED LA LA LA I CAN’T HEAR YOU

by Evan on Sep 29, 2008 3:35 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

THAT'S ONLY OPS+!!!!

The Basil Fawlty Moderating Strategy:
"We could run a nice blog here if we didn't have all these members getting in the way."
How is my adopted son almost twice as old as I am? Nevermind...Go Omar! Warm the Bench!

by WalrusMan on Sep 29, 2008 5:17 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

nope

that is too.

Mischievously implosive purple pitching staff.

by SloIsLonelyForTheOrange on Sep 29, 2008 5:34 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Keeping in mind there is no way i can be objective

1st in winning percentage
1st in opp avg
2nd in Era to santana
1st in k’s by a wide margin
2nd in wins to webb

The Enchanter gets my vote no question.

Rafael Rodriguez: More tools than Home Depot.

by BrianBokake on Sep 29, 2008 11:45 AM PDT   0 recs

My vote also.

The Bear Will Not Quit, The Bear Will Not Die.

by The Enchanter on Sep 29, 2008 8:48 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

no question

Rafael Rodriguez: More tools than Home Depot.

by BrianBokake on Sep 30, 2008 12:42 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Objectively speaking...

…Tim the Enchanter pitched with great awesomeness.

Objectively, I am a Giants fan. Therefore I am being completely objective when I say that Lincecum deserves the award.

Scott McClain: Great story, no place on the 2009 Giants.

by EliminateMe on Sep 29, 2008 11:46 AM PDT   0 recs

Sterling, impeccable logic. I cannot disagree.

The Bear Will Not Quit, The Bear Will Not Die.

by The Enchanter on Sep 29, 2008 8:49 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

What it really comes down to

Is if you had a 1 game tie breaker to get you into the playoffs, who would you want to start it ?

I’d say it’s either Lincecum or Sabathia, and I DQ Sabathia for switching leagues.

Eugeniooooooo!!!!

by FairweatherFan on Sep 29, 2008 11:49 AM PDT   0 recs

I don’t see how you could go wrong with Santana in that situation. Actually over the last 48 hours both CC and Santana were put in roughly that situation and both performed magnificiently.

Get the hell out the way Bengie, Pablito's hit the show!

by Roger on Sep 29, 2008 11:53 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Santana, Sabathia and Lincecum

All pitched like Cy Young winners in the final game of the season. Actually, they all pitched at an even higher level. Let them share it. Or lock them in a room with the award, until two are dead.

¿Julio is tourist in San Francisco? Harper's Bizarre!

by hairball on Sep 29, 2008 1:55 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I'd like to see them take on the Enchanter

Play with fire, and…. you know the rest.

Adopted brother of the AnVil / GIANTSPACE™ returns!

by SoFa King Mike on Sep 29, 2008 2:24 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

YOU PLAY WITH THE ARCADE FIRE

you’re going to get arcade burned.

Mischievously implosive purple pitching staff.

by SloIsLonelyForTheOrange on Sep 29, 2008 5:35 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I read recently in the sf chronicle that the MVP rules state that at-bats or playing time or something like that should be taken into account. I’m not sure if that’s true for the cy young, but it seems logical that it might be.

Either way, I think it should be taken into account. Look at Rowand’s first half season. I know Sabathia still pitched in the first half in the AL and was pretty good, but we’re talking about a national league award here. Timmy, Webb, Santana, etc. excelled over an entire NL season, while CC did for half. I know it would suck for CC not to win some award after the season he’s had, but I still don’t believe he deserves the NL cy young over other pitchers who had incredible full seasons.

Less arm, more talk. Raisingcain is a GAMER.
Adopted Giant: Henry Sosa

by raisingcain on Sep 29, 2008 5:15 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I hear Sabathia enjoys DQ

by Giant Voodoo on Sep 29, 2008 12:12 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I'll drive to the next town over just for some DQ

I used to live down the street from one…man that was good eatin’.

"While conservatives tell you 'leave things alone and no one will lose,' and liberals tell you 'interfere a lot and no one will lose,' baseball says 'someone will lose.' Not only says it - but insists upon it! ... Democracy is lovely, but baseball's more mature." BVCE supports SF Dugout and Manny Burriss.

by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Sep 29, 2008 2:54 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

damn it

now i want some ice cream

by Giant Voodoo on Sep 29, 2008 7:05 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Up until recently, I was totally 100% behind Lincecum, but I’m having trouble ignoring what Sabathia has meant to his team. I know he’s only been with them for 1/2 a season, but wow…just wow! His final three starts on three days rest is pretty amazing.

I can’t help but think it’s not his fault that he didn’t spend the whole season with them.

If voters think of the Cy Young as “Most Valuable Pitcher”, it’ll be hard to ignore C.C.

Zooperstars, they quack me up!

by Goofus on Sep 29, 2008 11:52 AM PDT   0 recs

actually I think it's exactly what it means

However, I don’t nullify “value” for any team that isn’t a contender.

FIRE BRIAN SABEAN

by zenbitz on Sep 29, 2008 12:47 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

It's not his fault

But it can’t be ignored.

¿Julio is tourist in San Francisco? Harper's Bizarre!

by hairball on Sep 29, 2008 1:56 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

If you bring up the value argument though, how valuable has Timmy been this year?

How many wins did the Giants probably not deserve, but earned because of a dominant Lincecum start?

If the bullpen only blew say two of his leads he would have had as many wins as Webb…

Furthermore, Cliff Lee is an automatic AL winner and his team was pretty shitty

by lincysgiants on Sep 29, 2008 3:57 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Lee

is not so automatic as he was thanks to Doc Halladay’s awesome finish. But Lee will probably win.

by Hobbes2d on Sep 29, 2008 4:10 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I think it’s Tim. Leads the league in a variety of categories, including the defense-independent ones. (He is the only qualified pitcher in the NL with a FIP under 3, for example. Also leads the league in the dreaded xFIP. I dunno where one finds leaderboards for tRA+, which is suddenly the stat du jour but I imagine he ranks pretty well there as well.)

It’s not entirely fair to Sabathia, but I don’t think someone who didn’t spend the entire year in the NL should win the award if there’s a good option among the pitchers who did (and there are several.)

Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.

by jponry on Sep 29, 2008 11:52 AM PDT   0 recs

So that Lincecum fellow is pretty good.

Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.

by jponry on Sep 29, 2008 12:20 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Yup

I’d like people to note, Johan Santana is down at #26 in tRA. He was the 2nd best Santana this year.

Neglectful father of David Quinowski

by marcello on Sep 29, 2008 12:54 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I say old bean

"While conservatives tell you 'leave things alone and no one will lose,' and liberals tell you 'interfere a lot and no one will lose,' baseball says 'someone will lose.' Not only says it - but insists upon it! ... Democracy is lovely, but baseball's more mature." BVCE supports SF Dugout and Manny Burriss.

by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Sep 29, 2008 2:54 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I agree

Like you said, he destroys the NL in FIP and other sabre stats and even though Santana has an ERA advantage, Lincecum still beats him in ERA+(although it’s only by 1). It’s gotta be Lincecum!

by superk1ng on Sep 29, 2008 12:30 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Wait, how is that possible?

by Evan on Sep 29, 2008 12:34 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

This

Potentially an odd rounding issue?

Eugeniooooooo!!!!

by FairweatherFan on Sep 29, 2008 12:47 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

How is it possible for Lincecum to beat Santana in ERA+ despite a higher ERA? lgERA of 4.30 for Tim/Giants and 4.12 for Santana/Mets. Shea played as a pitcher’s park and AT&T as an average park.

Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.

by jponry on Sep 29, 2008 12:52 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Huh. I never realized ERA+ is park-adjusted.

by Evan on Sep 29, 2008 12:56 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

That’s pretty much the whole point of ERA+…

Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.

by jponry on Sep 29, 2008 1:00 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

But..

OPS+ is just league adjusted.

The Basil Fawlty Moderating Strategy:
"We could run a nice blog here if we didn't have all these members getting in the way."
How is my adopted son almost twice as old as I am? Nevermind...Go Omar! Warm the Bench!

by WalrusMan on Sep 29, 2008 1:03 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I’m pretty sure it’s based on lgOBP and lgSLG which are park adjusted.

Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.

by jponry on Sep 29, 2008 1:06 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

yep

Mischievously implosive purple pitching staff.

by SloIsLonelyForTheOrange on Sep 29, 2008 1:07 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Wait..

So lgOBP and lgSLG aren’t just straight “league’s OBP” and “league’s SLG”?

Damn….I’m going back to average and HR.

The Basil Fawlty Moderating Strategy:
"We could run a nice blog here if we didn't have all these members getting in the way."
How is my adopted son almost twice as old as I am? Nevermind...Go Omar! Warm the Bench!

by WalrusMan on Sep 29, 2008 1:22 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

They’re adjusted for park! That’s why they’re different for players from different teams.

Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.

by jponry on Sep 29, 2008 1:25 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

and why they’re listed on BB-Ref’s player cards as well as on statcorner.com

Mischievously implosive purple pitching staff.

by SloIsLonelyForTheOrange on Sep 29, 2008 1:30 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

AVG AND HR ARE THE SAME AND EVERY PARK

LALALALALALALALALALALALALA

The Basil Fawlty Moderating Strategy:
"We could run a nice blog here if we didn't have all these members getting in the way."
How is my adopted son almost twice as old as I am? Nevermind...Go Omar! Warm the Bench!

by WalrusMan on Sep 29, 2008 3:24 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Sabathia’s NL ERA+ of 262 (162 overall) couldn’t be much shinier.

Zooperstars, they quack me up!

by Goofus on Sep 29, 2008 12:35 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Small sample size

I don’t even consider him a candidate and I hope the writers don’t either.

by superk1ng on Sep 29, 2008 12:41 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

This

Shiny, but in the same way Sandoval is shiny. The league has not had a full season to get to know Sabathia.

¿Julio is tourist in San Francisco? Harper's Bizarre!

by hairball on Sep 29, 2008 1:58 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Not trying to compare the two

Obviously, C.C. is a proven monster. Just had to get that disclaimer out of the way.

¿Julio is tourist in San Francisco? Harper's Bizarre!

by hairball on Sep 29, 2008 1:58 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

17 starts

That’s a a full half-season*. I don’t think that’s all that small.

*oxymoron FTW

Zooperstars, they quack me up!

by Goofus on Sep 29, 2008 2:42 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I’m not buying the sample size argument. Lincecum threw 92.33 more innings in the NL than Sabathia did, and gave up 40 more runs. Give Sabathia 92.33 more innings and he would have to fall way off his pace (ERA higher than 4, which he hasn’t done in years) for them to be tied in runs allowed. When you consider park, pennant race, and quality of opposition, Sabathia comes out clearly ahead.

by Evan on Sep 29, 2008 3:19 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

No, because it’s not just rate based, you have to factor in total value as well. Lincecum dominates Sabathia in that and it’s not particularly close. The Sabathia support has to stop, it is insane.

Neglectful father of David Quinowski

by marcello on Sep 29, 2008 3:48 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Sabathia gave up 24 earned runs in 130.7 IP. The league average pitcher, in Sabathia’s ballpark, would have given 63 ER’s in 13.7 IP. So Sabathia was 39 runs above average.

Lincecum gave up 66 earned runs in 227 IP. The league average pitcher, in Lincecum’s ballpark, would have given up 108 ER’s in 227 IP. So Lincecum was 42 runs above average.

If you compared to replacement level instead of average – like you should – Lincecum would have a much bigger lead. Set replacement level at an ERA of 5, for example, and Lincecum leads by 12 runs. Set it at an ERA of 5.5, and Lincecum leads by 17 runs. The pressure of a pennant race and the quality of the opposition can not make up for that big a differnce.

..so allow me to present Tim Lincecum and Matt Cain as two sweet, sweet bottles of warming hooch.

by Cookyman on Sep 29, 2008 4:29 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Right, Sabathia’s 130 innings aren’t quite as valuable in absolute terms as Lincecum’s 227 innings. But any reasonable attempt one can make to calculate what he might done with those extra hundred innings comes out with Sabathia well ahead.

by Evan on Sep 29, 2008 4:56 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

It’s not as close as you make it sound. Even when we set replacement level ERA at 5 (and we both know that it should be higher than that), Lincecum is worth over a win more than Sabathia. And I don’t see why we should try to calculate what he could have done – he didn’t do it, and in this case it’s all that matters.

..so allow me to present Tim Lincecum and Matt Cain as two sweet, sweet bottles of warming hooch.

by Cookyman on Sep 29, 2008 5:20 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

WOW!

Sabathia had a 1.65 ERA when the league average pitcher there would have had a 41.49 ERA!

The Basil Fawlty Moderating Strategy:
"We could run a nice blog here if we didn't have all these members getting in the way."
How is my adopted son almost twice as old as I am? Nevermind...Go Omar! Warm the Bench!

by WalrusMan on Sep 29, 2008 5:20 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

This is tough

I think, objectively speaking, a very good case can be made for Timmy, Santana or CC (less for CC since he only pitched a couple months in the NL). Ironically, the guy with 22 wins (Webb) should NOT be finishing in the top 3 at this point.

I still think Tim’s had the best season given both his numbers and the anemic offense that he had to support him. But if Santana wins the CYA I won’t consider it a travesty, I’ll just be a bit bummed out.

No, my Crazy Crab bobblehead is not for sale.

by Kitspool on Sep 29, 2008 11:54 AM PDT   0 recs

I don't think..

I can vote for Sabathia. But wow, not only his year in the NL but his year in the AL. There’s a piece on BTB about how amazing his season after his first 4 disastrous starts were.

The Basil Fawlty Moderating Strategy:
"We could run a nice blog here if we didn't have all these members getting in the way."
How is my adopted son almost twice as old as I am? Nevermind...Go Omar! Warm the Bench!

by WalrusMan on Sep 29, 2008 11:54 AM PDT   0 recs

I think you have to consider Sabathia’s AL stats. This isn’t a criminal case where the jury isn’t allowed consider evidence that isn’t legally admissable. MLB is MLB.

by Evan on Sep 29, 2008 2:42 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

To me, that’s just a legalistic distinction. But he’s still the best if you throw out his AL stats. If you count both leagues he wins on quantity; if you count just the NL he wins on quality.

by Evan on Sep 29, 2008 2:56 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

It might be legalistic but it's a distinction that needs to be made.

I agree he had an absolutely awesome half-season in the NL, but it was just half a season. And there are candidates who had full seasons in the NL who are just as worthy.

Noonan. Nooooonan!

by Giant Fan in Singapore on