Revised Poll: NL Cy Young
by Goofus on Sep 29, 2008 11:35 AM PDT
159 comments
(I deleted the previous post and re-posted with Santana as an option. If you voted before, please vote again.)
I know it's been discussed before, but I'd like to see who people think should win the NL Cy Young. Hard to imagine anyone besides Lincecum, Webb, Santana or Sabathia getting votes, so I'll include just those choices.
Please try to be as objective as possible when voting! So as not to taint the results, I'll share my own opinion in the comments with everyone else.
This FanPost is reader-generated, and it does not necessarily reflect the views of McCovey Chronicles. If the author uses filler to achieve the minimum word requirement, a moderator may edit the FanPost for his or her own amusement.
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I still think Cole Hamels should be in there.
But I voted for CC.
by Evan on Sep 29, 2008 11:42 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I think that if you're going to suggest an alternative
You need to back it up. As a pretty heavy Hamels fan, I must admit that I’m not aware of Hamels being dramatically better in any category than the 4 candidates mentioned. What am I missing?
¿Julio is tourist in San Francisco? Harper's Bizarre!
by hairball on Sep 29, 2008 1:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t think that he’s dramatically better, but as best I can tell without getting all scientific about it, he was just about as good as Santana and Lincecum, and better than Webb.
But I’m still voting for CC.
by Evan on Sep 29, 2008 2:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm pretty much in agreement with almost everything you have to say around here
but Hamels as good as Timmy?
Hamels: 14-10 (on a team that actually scores runs), 3.09 ERA, 145 ERA+ .86 K/IP, 3.7 K/BB
Timmy: 18-5, 2.62 ERA, 164 ERA+, 1.17 K/IP, 3.15 K/BB
I’ll take Timmy.
STEVE HOLM! refuses to be the odd man out.
by UnleashTheGore on Sep 29, 2008 2:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hamels had to deal with a bandbox ballpark, a pennant race, and tougher competition. That may not be enough to even the scale, but it’s getting pretty close …
by Evan on Sep 29, 2008 2:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe
Maybe it’s the fanboy in me, but Hamels seems like a more effective Rueter. I’d rather have the strikeout power-pitcher. What the hell do I know, though, I guess there’s a reason I’m not a GM.
STEVE HOLM! refuses to be the odd man out.
by UnleashTheGore on Sep 29, 2008 3:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hamels throws 94 though.
"While conservatives tell you 'leave things alone and no one will lose,' and liberals tell you 'interfere a lot and no one will lose,' baseball says 'someone will lose.' Not only says it - but insists upon it! ... Democracy is lovely, but baseball's more mature." BVCE supports SF Dugout and Manny Burriss.
by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Sep 29, 2008 3:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
does he really?
I don’t watch the phillies often but I don’t remember him topping 90(he was around 89 the whole game) the few times I watched him.
by superk1ng on Sep 29, 2008 9:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I recall an interview where Lincecum mentioned facing Hamels in the batters box and said he was throwing 94.
"While conservatives tell you 'leave things alone and no one will lose,' and liberals tell you 'interfere a lot and no one will lose,' baseball says 'someone will lose.' Not only says it - but insists upon it! ... Democracy is lovely, but baseball's more mature." BVCE supports SF Dugout and Manny Burriss.
by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Sep 29, 2008 9:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cole Hamels's average fastball is 90.4 MPH
per fangraphs.
Lincecum was either exaggerating for effect or just incorrect. I doubt Hamels was burning his limited supply of 94 Octane Gas on the opposing pitcher.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Sep 30, 2008 1:25 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t know of many people who can correctly identify the speed of a pitch when they’re standing in against a pitcher. A few months ago I shook off the rust and stood in the batting cage. I got a couple 70 MPH pitches whistling up near my head. Let me tell you, those did not feel like 70. They felt like holy shit my head’s gonna cave in.
"While conservatives tell you 'leave things alone and no one will lose,' and liberals tell you 'interfere a lot and no one will lose,' baseball says 'someone will lose.' Not only says it - but insists upon it! ... Democracy is lovely, but baseball's more mature." BVCE supports SF Dugout and Manny Burriss.
by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Sep 30, 2008 7:37 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Its funny how perception changes, too
Take a few 90 mph pitches, and suddenly it seems like you can count to 10 before those 70 mph pitches reach the plate.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on Sep 30, 2008 11:29 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The softball machine at the cage was busted
I really don’t want to have any 90 MPH pitches near my head in a softball game.
"While conservatives tell you 'leave things alone and no one will lose,' and liberals tell you 'interfere a lot and no one will lose,' baseball says 'someone will lose.' Not only says it - but insists upon it! ... Democracy is lovely, but baseball's more mature." BVCE supports SF Dugout and Manny Burriss.
by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Sep 30, 2008 11:50 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bandbox..
Well, ERA+ is there.
The Basil Fawlty Moderating Strategy:
"We could run a nice blog here if we didn't have all these members getting in the way."
How is my adopted son almost twice as old as I am? Nevermind...Go Omar! Warm the Bench!
by WalrusMan on Sep 29, 2008 3:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
ERA+ IS NOT PARK ADJUSTED LA LA LA I CAN’T HEAR YOU
by Evan on Sep 29, 2008 3:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
THAT'S ONLY OPS+!!!!
The Basil Fawlty Moderating Strategy:
"We could run a nice blog here if we didn't have all these members getting in the way."
How is my adopted son almost twice as old as I am? Nevermind...Go Omar! Warm the Bench!
by WalrusMan on Sep 29, 2008 5:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
nope
that is too.
Mischievously implosive purple pitching staff.
by SloIsLonelyForTheOrange on Sep 29, 2008 5:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Keeping in mind there is no way i can be objective
1st in winning percentage
1st in opp avg
2nd in Era to santana
1st in k’s by a wide margin
2nd in wins to webb
The Enchanter gets my vote no question.
Rafael Rodriguez: More tools than Home Depot.
by BrianBokake on Sep 29, 2008 11:45 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
My vote also.
The Bear Will Not Quit, The Bear Will Not Die.
by The Enchanter on Sep 29, 2008 8:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
no question
Rafael Rodriguez: More tools than Home Depot.
by BrianBokake on Sep 30, 2008 12:42 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Objectively speaking...
…Tim the Enchanter pitched with great awesomeness.
Objectively, I am a Giants fan. Therefore I am being completely objective when I say that Lincecum deserves the award.
Scott McClain: Great story, no place on the 2009 Giants.
by EliminateMe on Sep 29, 2008 11:46 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Sterling, impeccable logic. I cannot disagree.
The Bear Will Not Quit, The Bear Will Not Die.
by The Enchanter on Sep 29, 2008 8:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
What it really comes down to
Is if you had a 1 game tie breaker to get you into the playoffs, who would you want to start it ?
I’d say it’s either Lincecum or Sabathia, and I DQ Sabathia for switching leagues.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on Sep 29, 2008 11:49 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I don’t see how you could go wrong with Santana in that situation. Actually over the last 48 hours both CC and Santana were put in roughly that situation and both performed magnificiently.
Get the hell out the way Bengie, Pablito's hit the show!
by Roger on Sep 29, 2008 11:53 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Santana, Sabathia and Lincecum
All pitched like Cy Young winners in the final game of the season. Actually, they all pitched at an even higher level. Let them share it. Or lock them in a room with the award, until two are dead.
¿Julio is tourist in San Francisco? Harper's Bizarre!
by hairball on Sep 29, 2008 1:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd like to see them take on the Enchanter
by SoFa King Mike on Sep 29, 2008 2:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
YOU PLAY WITH THE ARCADE FIRE
you’re going to get arcade burned.
Mischievously implosive purple pitching staff.
by SloIsLonelyForTheOrange on Sep 29, 2008 5:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I read recently in the sf chronicle that the MVP rules state that at-bats or playing time or something like that should be taken into account. I’m not sure if that’s true for the cy young, but it seems logical that it might be.
Either way, I think it should be taken into account. Look at Rowand’s first half season. I know Sabathia still pitched in the first half in the AL and was pretty good, but we’re talking about a national league award here. Timmy, Webb, Santana, etc. excelled over an entire NL season, while CC did for half. I know it would suck for CC not to win some award after the season he’s had, but I still don’t believe he deserves the NL cy young over other pitchers who had incredible full seasons.
Less arm, more talk. Raisingcain is a GAMER.
Adopted Giant: Henry Sosa
by raisingcain on Sep 29, 2008 5:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
who doesn't?
Proud adopted parent of future big league slugger Thomas Neal
by nostocksjustbonds on Sep 29, 2008 12:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'll drive to the next town over just for some DQ
I used to live down the street from one…man that was good eatin’.
"While conservatives tell you 'leave things alone and no one will lose,' and liberals tell you 'interfere a lot and no one will lose,' baseball says 'someone will lose.' Not only says it - but insists upon it! ... Democracy is lovely, but baseball's more mature." BVCE supports SF Dugout and Manny Burriss.
by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Sep 29, 2008 2:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
damn it
now i want some ice cream
by Giant Voodoo on Sep 29, 2008 7:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Up until recently, I was totally 100% behind Lincecum, but I’m having trouble ignoring what Sabathia has meant to his team. I know he’s only been with them for 1/2 a season, but wow…just wow! His final three starts on three days rest is pretty amazing.
I can’t help but think it’s not his fault that he didn’t spend the whole season with them.
If voters think of the Cy Young as “Most Valuable Pitcher”, it’ll be hard to ignore C.C.
Zooperstars, they quack me up!
by Goofus on Sep 29, 2008 11:52 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
actually I think it's exactly what it means
However, I don’t nullify “value” for any team that isn’t a contender.
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN
by zenbitz on Sep 29, 2008 12:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's not his fault
But it can’t be ignored.
¿Julio is tourist in San Francisco? Harper's Bizarre!
by hairball on Sep 29, 2008 1:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If you bring up the value argument though, how valuable has Timmy been this year?
How many wins did the Giants probably not deserve, but earned because of a dominant Lincecum start?
If the bullpen only blew say two of his leads he would have had as many wins as Webb…
Furthermore, Cliff Lee is an automatic AL winner and his team was pretty shitty
by lincysgiants on Sep 29, 2008 3:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think it’s Tim. Leads the league in a variety of categories, including the defense-independent ones. (He is the only qualified pitcher in the NL with a FIP under 3, for example. Also leads the league in the dreaded xFIP. I dunno where one finds leaderboards for tRA+, which is suddenly the stat du jour but I imagine he ranks pretty well there as well.)
It’s not entirely fair to Sabathia, but I don’t think someone who didn’t spend the entire year in the NL should win the award if there’s a good option among the pitchers who did (and there are several.)
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on Sep 29, 2008 11:52 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
tRA
http://statcorner.com/leader.php?type=2
Neglectful father of David Quinowski
by marcello on Sep 29, 2008 12:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
So that Lincecum fellow is pretty good.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on Sep 29, 2008 12:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yup
I’d like people to note, Johan Santana is down at #26 in tRA. He was the 2nd best Santana this year.
Neglectful father of David Quinowski
by marcello on Sep 29, 2008 12:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I say old bean
"While conservatives tell you 'leave things alone and no one will lose,' and liberals tell you 'interfere a lot and no one will lose,' baseball says 'someone will lose.' Not only says it - but insists upon it! ... Democracy is lovely, but baseball's more mature." BVCE supports SF Dugout and Manny Burriss.
by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Sep 29, 2008 2:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree
Like you said, he destroys the NL in FIP and other sabre stats and even though Santana has an ERA advantage, Lincecum still beats him in ERA+(although it’s only by 1). It’s gotta be Lincecum!
by superk1ng on Sep 29, 2008 12:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
This
Potentially an odd rounding issue?
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on Sep 29, 2008 12:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
How is it possible for Lincecum to beat Santana in ERA+ despite a higher ERA? lgERA of 4.30 for Tim/Giants and 4.12 for Santana/Mets. Shea played as a pitcher’s park and AT&T as an average park.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on Sep 29, 2008 12:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Huh. I never realized ERA+ is park-adjusted.
by Evan on Sep 29, 2008 12:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That’s pretty much the whole point of ERA+…
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on Sep 29, 2008 1:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
But..
OPS+ is just league adjusted.
The Basil Fawlty Moderating Strategy:
"We could run a nice blog here if we didn't have all these members getting in the way."
How is my adopted son almost twice as old as I am? Nevermind...Go Omar! Warm the Bench!
by WalrusMan on Sep 29, 2008 1:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m pretty sure it’s based on lgOBP and lgSLG which are park adjusted.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on Sep 29, 2008 1:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
yep
Mischievously implosive purple pitching staff.
by SloIsLonelyForTheOrange on Sep 29, 2008 1:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wait..
So lgOBP and lgSLG aren’t just straight “league’s OBP” and “league’s SLG”?
Damn….I’m going back to average and HR.
The Basil Fawlty Moderating Strategy:
"We could run a nice blog here if we didn't have all these members getting in the way."
How is my adopted son almost twice as old as I am? Nevermind...Go Omar! Warm the Bench!
by WalrusMan on Sep 29, 2008 1:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
They’re adjusted for park! That’s why they’re different for players from different teams.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on Sep 29, 2008 1:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
and why they’re listed on BB-Ref’s player cards as well as on statcorner.com
Mischievously implosive purple pitching staff.
by SloIsLonelyForTheOrange on Sep 29, 2008 1:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
AVG AND HR ARE THE SAME AND EVERY PARK
LALALALALALALALALALALALALA
The Basil Fawlty Moderating Strategy:
"We could run a nice blog here if we didn't have all these members getting in the way."
How is my adopted son almost twice as old as I am? Nevermind...Go Omar! Warm the Bench!
by WalrusMan on Sep 29, 2008 3:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sabathia’s NL ERA+ of 262 (162 overall) couldn’t be much shinier.
Zooperstars, they quack me up!
by Goofus on Sep 29, 2008 12:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Small sample size
I don’t even consider him a candidate and I hope the writers don’t either.
by superk1ng on Sep 29, 2008 12:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
This
Shiny, but in the same way Sandoval is shiny. The league has not had a full season to get to know Sabathia.
¿Julio is tourist in San Francisco? Harper's Bizarre!
by hairball on Sep 29, 2008 1:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not trying to compare the two
Obviously, C.C. is a proven monster. Just had to get that disclaimer out of the way.
¿Julio is tourist in San Francisco? Harper's Bizarre!
by hairball on Sep 29, 2008 1:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
17 starts
That’s a a full half-season*. I don’t think that’s all that small.
*oxymoron FTW
Zooperstars, they quack me up!
by Goofus on Sep 29, 2008 2:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m not buying the sample size argument. Lincecum threw 92.33 more innings in the NL than Sabathia did, and gave up 40 more runs. Give Sabathia 92.33 more innings and he would have to fall way off his pace (ERA higher than 4, which he hasn’t done in years) for them to be tied in runs allowed. When you consider park, pennant race, and quality of opposition, Sabathia comes out clearly ahead.
by Evan on Sep 29, 2008 3:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, because it’s not just rate based, you have to factor in total value as well. Lincecum dominates Sabathia in that and it’s not particularly close. The Sabathia support has to stop, it is insane.
Neglectful father of David Quinowski
by marcello on Sep 29, 2008 3:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sabathia gave up 24 earned runs in 130.7 IP. The league average pitcher, in Sabathia’s ballpark, would have given 63 ER’s in 13.7 IP. So Sabathia was 39 runs above average.
Lincecum gave up 66 earned runs in 227 IP. The league average pitcher, in Lincecum’s ballpark, would have given up 108 ER’s in 227 IP. So Lincecum was 42 runs above average.
If you compared to replacement level instead of average – like you should – Lincecum would have a much bigger lead. Set replacement level at an ERA of 5, for example, and Lincecum leads by 12 runs. Set it at an ERA of 5.5, and Lincecum leads by 17 runs. The pressure of a pennant race and the quality of the opposition can not make up for that big a differnce.
..so allow me to present Tim Lincecum and Matt Cain as two sweet, sweet bottles of warming hooch.
by Cookyman on Sep 29, 2008 4:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right, Sabathia’s 130 innings aren’t quite as valuable in absolute terms as Lincecum’s 227 innings. But any reasonable attempt one can make to calculate what he might done with those extra hundred innings comes out with Sabathia well ahead.
by Evan on Sep 29, 2008 4:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s not as close as you make it sound. Even when we set replacement level ERA at 5 (and we both know that it should be higher than that), Lincecum is worth over a win more than Sabathia. And I don’t see why we should try to calculate what he could have done – he didn’t do it, and in this case it’s all that matters.
..so allow me to present Tim Lincecum and Matt Cain as two sweet, sweet bottles of warming hooch.
by Cookyman on Sep 29, 2008 5:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
WOW!
Sabathia had a 1.65 ERA when the league average pitcher there would have had a 41.49 ERA!
The Basil Fawlty Moderating Strategy:
"We could run a nice blog here if we didn't have all these members getting in the way."
How is my adopted son almost twice as old as I am? Nevermind...Go Omar! Warm the Bench!
by WalrusMan on Sep 29, 2008 5:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is tough
I think, objectively speaking, a very good case can be made for Timmy, Santana or CC (less for CC since he only pitched a couple months in the NL). Ironically, the guy with 22 wins (Webb) should NOT be finishing in the top 3 at this point.
I still think Tim’s had the best season given both his numbers and the anemic offense that he had to support him. But if Santana wins the CYA I won’t consider it a travesty, I’ll just be a bit bummed out.
No, my Crazy Crab bobblehead is not for sale.
by Kitspool on Sep 29, 2008 11:54 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I agree that Webb is the lesser of the 4 at this point
¿Julio is tourist in San Francisco? Harper's Bizarre!
by hairball on Sep 29, 2008 1:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think..
I can vote for Sabathia. But wow, not only his year in the NL but his year in the AL. There’s a piece on BTB about how amazing his season after his first 4 disastrous starts were.
The Basil Fawlty Moderating Strategy:
"We could run a nice blog here if we didn't have all these members getting in the way."
How is my adopted son almost twice as old as I am? Nevermind...Go Omar! Warm the Bench!
by WalrusMan on Sep 29, 2008 11:54 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I think you have to consider Sabathia’s AL stats. This isn’t a criminal case where the jury isn’t allowed consider evidence that isn’t legally admissable. MLB is MLB.
by Evan on Sep 29, 2008 2:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
But it's the NL Cy Young, not the MLB Cy Young
Noonan. Nooooonan!
by Giant Fan in Singapore on Sep 29, 2008 2:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
To me, that’s just a legalistic distinction. But he’s still the best if you throw out his AL stats. If you count both leagues he wins on quantity; if you count just the NL he wins on quality.
by Evan on Sep 29, 2008 2:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It might be legalistic but it's a distinction that needs to be made.
I agree he had an absolutely awesome half-season in the NL, but it was just half a season. And there are candidates who had full seasons in the NL who are just as worthy.
Noonan. Nooooonan!
by Giant Fan in Singapore on Sep 29, 2008 3:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why does it "need to be made?"
It’s essentially disqualifying him for an award based on a technicality— and if that wasn’t bad enough, a technicality he has NO control over.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Sep 30, 2008 1:33 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It "needs to be made" because them's the rules...
And it may be a technicality but it’s a pretty big technicality. The award is called the NL Cy Young. It’s not his fault that he was traded mid-season, but life’s not fair.
Noonan. Nooooonan!
by Giant Fan in Singapore on Sep 30, 2008 6:23 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
But here’s the thing, completely ignoring AL results would be akin to completely ignoring results from previous years. I think we’d all agree that voters take into account a player’s reputation into account, which is based on what he’s done for his career.
Zooperstars, they quack me up!
by Goofus on Sep 30, 2008 6:57 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe they do, but that doesn’t mean that they should.
..so allow me to present Tim Lincecum and Matt Cain as two sweet, sweet bottles of warming hooch.
by Cookyman on Sep 30, 2008 8:47 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
So should Cliff Lee not win in the AL because he’s never been close to this good before and was actively horrible last year?
Trent Kline: Decentish. Also, my website is called ChatterBalks Dot Com. It's not being updated right now. Hope for more at your own risk.
by groug on Sep 30, 2008 11:23 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Uh.. what? Quantity?
If Sabathia’s combined season of 17-10 2.70 ERA 251 Ks is in any way better than Lincecum’s, I’d like to see how….
I only have a signature because I recognize everyone else by their sigs, not their usernames..
by lmaozedong on Sep 30, 2008 7:58 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s closer than I thought at first (see here) but . . . come on. Sabathia threw 26 more innings with very comparable numbers, had to deal with tougher competition and tougher ballparks, and delivered a series of pennant-race performances that’s already legendary. If there were an overall award for best pitcher in MLB, he would win unanimously.
by Evan on Sep 30, 2008 8:47 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If there were an overall award for best pitcher in MLB, he would win unanimously.
Probably. But there isn’t.
..so allow me to present Tim Lincecum and Matt Cain as two sweet, sweet bottles of warming hooch.
by Cookyman on Sep 30, 2008 8:52 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Couldn't have put it better myself
Noonan. Nooooonan!
by Giant Fan in Singapore on Sep 30, 2008 5:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You guys do realize that we were talking about Sabathia’s combined numbers, right?
by Evan on Sep 30, 2008 7:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
To me, that’s just a legalistic distinction. But he’s still the best if you throw out his AL stats. If you count both leagues he wins on quantity; if you count just the NL he wins on quality.
I’m saying that you can’t give him the NL Cy Young based on his AL stats.
..so allow me to present Tim Lincecum and Matt Cain as two sweet, sweet bottles of warming hooch.
by Cookyman on Oct 1, 2008 2:12 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
My problem with Sabathia
Is that he is enjoying the advantage of pitching in a new league. Many of these teams he is dominating are only seeing him for the first or second time.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on Sep 29, 2008 12:27 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
More than compensated for
by his pitching on no rest and personally dragging the Brewers into the playoffs. He’s the only pitcher of these four to have really led his team somewhere, and under unreal pressure.
Also, Timmy is almost as new to the league as Sabathia, especially considering Timmy unveiled a full repertoire of pitches for his first full season.
The above poll is JUST a little skewed for our guy. I think this thing comes down to Timmy and Sabathia.
Santana gets the substantial east coast bias, but is shrouded in the Mets’ gloom.
Webb had a chance to take the trophy with his last start, but failed, and left it wide open.
by Moggeee on Sep 29, 2008 12:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
geeze
they might give to CC, migh’t they? I am not actually totally familiar with the rules… are they allowed to consider his AL pitching? I guess he’d be a better pick than Gagne was.
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN
by zenbitz on Sep 29, 2008 12:51 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Yea..
If we’re going with better picks, basically I’d be meh with Santana winning it, happy with Sabathia winning it, but happiest with Lincecum winning it.
The Basil Fawlty Moderating Strategy:
"We could run a nice blog here if we didn't have all these members getting in the way."
How is my adopted son almost twice as old as I am? Nevermind...Go Omar! Warm the Bench!
by WalrusMan on Sep 29, 2008 1:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Coin flip
Santana or Lincecum
Pedro Feliz would look great in Dodger Blue.
by irwin on Sep 29, 2008 1:06 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
The Award is for the Best Pitcher, period.
Lincecum dominated hitters like no other pitcher this year. He led the league in K’s by such a wide margin that he deserves the award – and you can’t credit his strikeout dominance to scoring decisions, or defense, or park factors, or how much offense was provided, or whether the bullpen was good or not. That he was also 1st in ERA+, K/9, hits allowed/9ip, BAA, 2nd in ERA and 3rd in IP (only 7 behind Santana), just confirms that he was the most dominant pitcher this year in the NL. He also gave up only 11 homeruns, Webb gave up 13, Sabathia 19, Santana 23 and Hamels 28. Tim also had a better GB% than Santana or Hamels (Webb led the league).
His one downside is that he walked 84 batters, more than any of the major contenders for the award.
He was the best pitcher in baseball this year, period. He deserves the award.
Proud adopted parent of future big league slugger Thomas Neal
by nostocksjustbonds on Sep 29, 2008 1:09 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
He led the league in K’s by such a wide margin that he deserves the award
Well yeah, but Sabathia had 251 Ks and spent half the season pitching to DHs. Just sayin’
Zooperstars, they quack me up!
by Goofus on Sep 29, 2008 2:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
ifs and buts
I’m only considering CC’s NL stats as it is an NL award. I believe the amount of time he spent in the AL cuts against him in this case. It isn’t as if he shouldn’t be considered, but he spent half his time in the AL. I won’t speculate on what he would have done had he spent more time in the NL. He’s worthy, but not asworthy.
but, yeah. good point.
Proud adopted parent of future big league slugger Thomas Neal
by nostocksjustbonds on Sep 29, 2008 3:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
IF Sabathia's AL stats mean anything, then
…pretty good point on the Ks — not to mention the usual fatter ERA from the AL.
Gotta assume Lincecum got about 50 Ks out of the No. 9 hole in those awesome NL batting orders…
So Timmy’s Cy win is lopsided, not quite a landslide…
by Moggeee on Sep 29, 2008 3:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Peter Gammons said that Lincecum would probably win the award
He said on BBTN last night. He didn’t seem to thrilled about it, though. He sounded as if he were a Johan kind of guy, because Johan pitched in NY and was awesome in a pennant race.
Gammons probably has a pretty good feel of how sportswriters think (or don’t) and if he thinks Timmy will win the award, that’s saying something. At least Timmy isn’t being ignored for being on a crap team.
Proud adopted parent of future big league slugger Thomas Neal
by nostocksjustbonds on Sep 29, 2008 1:12 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
+1
Red Sox/east coast homer.
Noonan. Nooooonan!
by Giant Fan in Singapore on Sep 29, 2008 2:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
but he at least knows what he's talking about
even if he’s obviously biased.
STEVE HOLM! refuses to be the odd man out.
by UnleashTheGore on Sep 29, 2008 2:51 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
plus he plays a mean guitar!
STEVE HOLM! refuses to be the odd man out.
by UnleashTheGore on Sep 29, 2008 2:51 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
this
even if he is in a band with the Red Sox GM Theo Epstein
Adopted brother of the AnVil / GIANTSPACE™ returns!
by SoFa King Mike on Sep 29, 2008 2:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He’s not that bad compared to some other guys
by Natto on Sep 29, 2008 2:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I never said he doesn't know what he's talking about, I just don't like him.
And I don’t like him because 50% of what he wrote about — I’m going based on pre-Insider days since I’m not an ESPN Insider — was Red Sox/Yankees/Mets.
Noonan. Nooooonan!
by Giant Fan in Singapore on Sep 29, 2008 2:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I used to like him, but the more I learned about baseball and the more I watched ESPN, the more I came to discover his bias and dislike him.
Proud adopted parent of future big league slugger Thomas Neal
by nostocksjustbonds on Sep 29, 2008 3:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bias homers like him shouldn't be allowed to call themselves journalists
You should heard how crazy he went when one of the BBTN analysts questioned the manny trade. He was like “HOW DARE YOU QUESTION LORD EPSTEIN!?!”
by superk1ng on Sep 29, 2008 9:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Voted Jamie Moyer.
#1 JUDY STEFFES FAN
My favorite pie is (name of pie flavor)
Bay City Ball
by xanthan on Sep 29, 2008 1:22 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
SIGN JAMIE MOYER SABES
The Basil Fawlty Moderating Strategy:
"We could run a nice blog here if we didn't have all these members getting in the way."
How is my adopted son almost twice as old as I am? Nevermind...Go Omar! Warm the Bench!
by WalrusMan on Sep 29, 2008 1:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually… if it’s a reasonable one-year deal, I wouldn’t mind.
by Natto on Sep 29, 2008 1:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Me either, actually.
#1 JUDY STEFFES FAN
My favorite pie is (name of pie flavor)
Bay City Ball
by xanthan on Sep 29, 2008 1:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Moyer's a surfboard and guitar from being a Zito
Imagine two Zitos in your rotation.
I’d vote to send the Giants to Tampa Bay.
by Moggeee on Sep 29, 2008 1:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’ll bet you 5 McCovey Bucks that Moyer has a better 2009 than Zito.
#1 JUDY STEFFES FAN
My favorite pie is (name of pie flavor)
Bay City Ball
by xanthan on Sep 29, 2008 1:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'll give you ten macbucks to take your side of the bet
But when Moyer has a bad night, he stinks to High Zito.
by Moggeee on Sep 29, 2008 1:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
um
tRA of 99, ERA+ of 120 this year in 196 innings with a 1.32 WHIP.
yeah the guy is a lot more than that from zito. he’s average.
Mischievously implosive purple pitching staff.
by SloIsLonelyForTheOrange on Sep 29, 2008 1:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is getting costly
I’ll give you the five macbucks I just bought from xanthan for ten.
by Moggeee on Sep 29, 2008 1:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
THE MARKET IS CRASHING YOUR MACBUCKS ARE WORTHLESS!
#1 JUDY STEFFES FAN
My favorite pie is (name of pie flavor)
Bay City Ball
by xanthan on Sep 29, 2008 1:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I need a bailout
I’m also having a Credibility Freeze.
by Moggeee on Sep 29, 2008 1:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m also kinda hoping to sign Maddux for a 1-year deal. Petco helped him a bunch but he’s still basically a league average pitcher and I’ve always been a big fan of Maddux. Plus, he likes to play on the west coast so he might consider the Giants.
Maybe he could teach Zito to not suck.
#1 JUDY STEFFES FAN
My favorite pie is (name of pie flavor)
Bay City Ball
by xanthan on Sep 29, 2008 1:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would be so
for signing either of those. We really don’t have a whole lot of starter material in the high minors unless pereira or english or palmer somehow goes ballistic.
Mischievously implosive purple pitching staff.
by SloIsLonelyForTheOrange on Sep 29, 2008 1:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’d like to have Maddux too, but I don’t feel like he’d want to come to the Giants. Imagine if Cain could pick/eat his brain though…
by Natto on Sep 29, 2008 2:51 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Zombie Cain?
"While conservatives tell you 'leave things alone and no one will lose,' and liberals tell you 'interfere a lot and no one will lose,' baseball says 'someone will lose.' Not only says it - but insists upon it! ... Democracy is lovely, but baseball's more mature." BVCE supports SF Dugout and Manny Burriss.
by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Sep 29, 2008 3:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You guys both fail
You’re not allowed to say that name without prefacing it with “ageless lefty”.
Scott McClain: Great story, no place on the 2009 Giants.
by EliminateMe on Sep 29, 2008 1:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Proud adopted parent of future big league slugger Thomas Neal
by nostocksjustbonds on Sep 29, 2008 3:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hmmmm…I wonder who’s gonna win in this particular survey on this particular site…
-D
by dw4848 on Sep 29, 2008 1:24 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Hitler won in similar landslides and we Giant Nazis know those elections weren’t rigged…
by Moggeee on Sep 29, 2008 1:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
109th vote! Lincecum duh.
I see the future, and it is Pablo
by CB30 on Sep 29, 2008 1:38 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
125 votes, and zero for Webb?
That settles it. Webb will clearly win the award.
¿Julio is tourist in San Francisco? Harper's Bizarre!
by hairball on Sep 29, 2008 2:01 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
science
Adopted brother of the AnVil / GIANTSPACE™ returns!
by SoFa King Mike on Sep 29, 2008 2:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’d be inclined to vote for CC if he’d spent the whole season in the NL. He just got screwed with the cross-league trade.
If I had a vote it’d go to Tim, and no, not because we love him the way we do. He simply had the numbers and the performances to back it up.
"While conservatives tell you 'leave things alone and no one will lose,' and liberals tell you 'interfere a lot and no one will lose,' baseball says 'someone will lose.' Not only says it - but insists upon it! ... Democracy is lovely, but baseball's more mature." BVCE supports SF Dugout and Manny Burriss.
by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Sep 29, 2008 2:53 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
My name is Can of Corn, and I approve this message.
It's my blarg! Quick Pitch
by can of corn on Sep 29, 2008 3:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
BVCE/CoC: Tim First
"While conservatives tell you 'leave things alone and no one will lose,' and liberals tell you 'interfere a lot and no one will lose,' baseball says 'someone will lose.' Not only says it - but insists upon it! ... Democracy is lovely, but baseball's more mature." BVCE supports SF Dugout and Manny Burriss.
by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Sep 29, 2008 3:44 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I can't believe we've gone almost 100 comments. . .
by can of corn on Sep 29, 2008 3:31 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I’d like to go just one day without a discussion about Goofus’ taint.
by Natto on Sep 29, 2008 3:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry, not possible. It’s there, and we must discuss it.
It's my blarg! Quick Pitch
by can of corn on Sep 29, 2008 5:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I chose CC
The guy was fantastic all year except his first 3 starts in the AL. Yes, he moved to the other league wah wah wah. Well what he did in the NL was on par with what Lincecum did. And for those who think CC wouldn’t have put up the same numbers in the NL all year then I think you are biased and full of shit. Sabathia WON the Cy Young last year too, in the more difficult league. So it’s not like he’s some average pitcher who changed leagues only to start dominating for half a season, like Edinson Volquez.
Here is what CC did in 3 interleague starts before being traded:
June 15th vs SD: 8 IP, 6 H, 3 R, 3 ER, 1 BB, 10 K, 112 Pitches, He got the win.
June 21st @ LAD: 7 IP, 5 H, 1 R, 1 ER, 1 HR, 1 BB, 10 K, 116 pitches. He got a ND, but the Indians won 7-2.
June 27th vs Cincinatti: 8 IP, 4 H, 0 R, 0 ER, 2 BB, 11 K, 116 pitches. He got the win and lowered his ERA by a quarter point.
So if you want to get technical his record against the NL was 13-2 in 20 starts, 153 2/3 IP, 159 K, and his ERA would be even LOWER than the 1.65 he had in 17 NL starts. Probably somewhere in the 1.3 or 1.25 range. Which is absolutely disgusting however you want to put it.
by Hobbes2d on Sep 29, 2008 4:47 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Very good point. I hadn’t even thought to look at his interleague record.
by Evan on Sep 29, 2008 4:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And Ted Williams would have hit more home runs had he not gone to war.
That isn’t a perfect comparison, but I don’t think you can give out awards based on what a player probably would have done.
by rotorueter on Sep 29, 2008 5:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
strength of schedule
This was nagging at me, so I took a stab at calculating the quality of the opposition. Here are the average runs scored per game for the teams faced by each of the pitchers:
Hamels: 4.60
Sabathia (AL & NL): 4.59
Santana: 4.56
Lincecum: 4.48
Webb: 4.44
So the NL West guys clearly had an easier time of it.
Multiplying these figures together with the number of innings pitched against each team allows you to figure out how many runs each pitcher would have been expected to give up in total over the course of the season.
Hamels: 116 expected runs allowed, 89 actual, difference of 27 runs saved
Sabathia: 129 expected, 85 actual, difference of 44
Santana: 119 expected, 74 actual, difference of 45
Lincecum: 113 expected, 71 actual, difference of 42
Webb: 112 expected, 98 actual, difference of 17
Webb clearly trails. Hamels’s tough home park isn’t enough to narrow the gap between him and the others. The other three guys are neck and neck.
So I’m happy with Timmy winning after all.
by Evan on Sep 29, 2008 5:56 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
A much more interesting poll would have been "Who do you think WILL win the Cy Young?"
I’m not going to put it up though, in the spirit of reducing signal/noise.
by cakes on Sep 29, 2008 6:01 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Webb.
The Basil Fawlty Moderating Strategy:
"We could run a nice blog here if we didn't have all these members getting in the way."
How is my adopted son almost twice as old as I am? Nevermind...Go Omar! Warm the Bench!
by WalrusMan on Sep 29, 2008 6:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t think so anymore.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on Sep 29, 2008 6:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think it’ll be a pretty close vote, but Lincecum will come out on top.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on Sep 29, 2008 9:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Some asshat in LA will probably vote for Chad Billingsley.
No, my Crazy Crab bobblehead is not for sale.
by Kitspool on Sep 30, 2008 8:55 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
lol where the hell is that 1 guy that voted for webb. burn the witch!!
by lincypoo i wuv u on Sep 30, 2008 2:10 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Tim WinCyYoung
Here is how I rank the top six for the Cy:
1. Lincecum — the most dominant pitcher in the league.
2. Santana — didn’t lose after June 28th, going 9-0 in a tremendous playoff drive, won the ERA title.
3. Webb — doesn’t have as much going for him except his 22 wins, which play heavily with the voters.
4. Sabathia — the best pitcher in the NL after being traded to Milwaukee but was in the NL for less than half a season.
5. Dempster — pitched very well for arguably the best team in the NL.
6. Volquez — kind of a mini-Tim, lacking primarily control.
Because of his great final Saturday, keeping the Mets alive until the season’s final day, his pitching in New York, his winning the ERA title and his not losing even once in the season’s second half, I fear Johan will win the award. Oh, and he’s been the best pitcher in baseball over the past five or six years.
by sharksrog on Sep 30, 2008 11:40 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, but if you want to talk about f'ed up intangibles
If the Twinkies make it into the playoffs, Johan will have gotten traded from a team that made the playoffs after he left to another team that failed to make the playoffs once he got there.
Don’t tell me that BBWRA doesn’t think about those kinda “leader” BS things.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on Sep 30, 2008 12:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That Santana trade is looking like a true disaster for the Twins. A bit of karmic payback for Liriano & Nathan, I’d say.
by Evan on Sep 30, 2008 12:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Is this the most useless poll (well, maybe not useless but you get my drift) ever on McC? I think we might have seen a closer race for
Q: DO YOU LIKE PIE
YES
NO
#1 JUDY STEFFES FAN
My favorite pie is (name of pie flavor)
Bay City Ball
by xanthan on Sep 30, 2008 1:01 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Y
"While conservatives tell you 'leave things alone and no one will lose,' and liberals tell you 'interfere a lot and no one will lose,' baseball says 'someone will lose.' Not only says it - but insists upon it! ... Democracy is lovely, but baseball's more mature." BVCE supports SF Dugout and Manny Burriss.
by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Sep 30, 2008 1:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I kind of expected as much. The discussion has been far more interesting than the poll results.
Zooperstars, they quack me up!
by Goofus on Sep 30, 2008 2:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
What kind of pie?
Trent Kline: Decentish. Also, my website is called ChatterBalks Dot Com. It's not being updated right now. Hope for more at your own risk.
by groug on Sep 30, 2008 4:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fish and Finger Pie
The Basil Fawlty Moderating Strategy:
"We could run a nice blog here if we didn't have all these members getting in the way."
How is my adopted son almost twice as old as I am? Nevermind...Go Omar! Warm the Bench!
by WalrusMan on Sep 30, 2008 7:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
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