Zomg, Walks! (Part 1)
A look at the importance of walks as a predictive factor of young players future success, using E. Velez, P. Sandoval, and F. Lewis as examples.

It is generally accepted in the post Moneyball era that walking is an important controllable skill for a batter. Walking is a pretty good way to not make an out, and not making outs is ultimately the goal of the batter. If enough batters don't make outs in an inning, runs invariably score.
However, it is also occasionally stated that a player, despite hitting well, does not "walk enough." I will explore this a little and talk about the potential relevance of this in terms of evaluating young players without an established ML track record. (In the interest of brevity I will not, however, delve much into established major leaguers who are sometimes criticized, IMO unfairly, for not "walking enough" despite impressive batting average driven on base percentages.)
To say a player doesn't "walk enough" when that player is hitting well sounds foolish. Ultimately, the how isn't as important as the what and if the player is getting on base at a sufficient rate, that should be all that matters. This is true in terms of evaluating past performance - and also may be true for older, established players who have established performance patterns. Ultimately however, when we are looking at un-established players in a year like 2008, we are primarily interested in predicting those player's future performances. It doesn't really matter if those players had a great or terrible year this year - what does matter is how those players will do in 2009 and beyond. Walks help us do this.
Walking is an indicator of patience and pitch selection. Generally, what this means is that a batter who walks a significant amount of time can both identify pitches out of the strike zone as well as elect not to swing at those pitches. In effect, the batter forces the pitcher to throw strikes during the at bat. In general, pitches in the strike zone are going to be much better pitches to hit, and will result in the batter having a higher chance of making quality contact with the ball. It is pretty clear that a batter who can indentify which pitches he should or shouldn't swing at is going to have an advantage when he does choose to swing. However, that is not necessarily the most important piece of information that a player's walk rate reveals.
Instead, the most valuable piece of information revealed in a players walk rate is the inverse. A player who does not walk puts little pressure on the pitcher to throw strikes at all. This puts the batter at a disadvantage because he is forced to try to make solid contact with bad pitches, typically resulting in weakly hit balls and swinging strikeouts. Major league pitchers will quickly learn that player X doesn't take pitches. As a result, that player will get a steady diet of unhittable garbage out of the zone.
Now, this isn't to mean that a batter cannot be successful in this realm. Several players in MLB attain success with a low walk rate. However, those players also must be able to make hard contact with garbage pitches, the so-called "bad ball hitter." Bengie Molina is an example of this type of player, as is Vlad (despite his average BB %). A player who regularly swings at pitches off the plate but either misses or makes weak contact will never be successful at the ML level. A high strikeout rate combined with a low BB rate is a recipe for a perpetual career in AAAA. (or getting DFA'ed and picked up by the Astros.)
It is easy for us as fans to get overly excited when we see a young player come up and hit the ball all over the yard - but the question of whether or not that player can continue that performance hinges heavily on his walk rate. A low walk rate does not necessarily doom the player - It can certainly be the case that in the small number of at bats we have to analyze that player he didn't see many pitches off the plate, and as a result did not have the "opportunity" to walk. As the sample size grows however, this will invariably make itself evident. ML pitchers are not going to continue to throw a player who is hitting the ball well strikes - and it will then be incumbent on that batter to take the bad pitches, forcing the pitchers to come back into the zone.
If we take a look at three young players who have done fairly well for us this season, we look at their walk rates (and strikeout rates) and get an idea of what to expect in the future (maybe).
Data Disclaimer - Data taken from Fangraphs and BBR. I am using "averages" based on my calculated averages of all position players with more than 400 AB's this season. Perhaps not as good as a compilation of the last several seasons, but I think good enough for what I am trying to do here.
ML -
Average BB rate: 9.3%
Average K rate: 18.3%
Average BB/K: .60
Average OPS: .797
Fred Lewis -
BB rate: 9.8%
K Rate: 26.5%
BB/K: .41
OPS: .791
Fred is the one "young" player that I think we as fans would unanimously agree has been a success this season. His OPS of .791 ranks him right around average of ML left fielders, and his defense has been anywhere from good to great depending on who you ask. Overall, he has been a + player for us this season and is a reason to be excited for the future. On top of that, his walk rate is slightly above ML average this year. This bodes well for him into the future, suggesting that he is waiting for pitches to hit and will continue to see strikes as pitchers have a reasonable concern that he will get away if they nibble too much. Interesting to note is that while the general perception amongst Giants fans is that Lewis walks a lot - that is not especially true. Yes, he walks a lot compared to the rest of the Giants - but compared to the league regulars he is barely above average. Fred really needs to bring his strikeouts down next season to get his BB/K closer to .5 in order to improve his performance at the plate. If he can do this (which I think he can) I think he stands a significant chance of repeating and possibly improving on his 2008 season.
Eugenio Velez -
ML season - total:
BB rate: 4.2%
K rate: 14.0%
BB/K: .31
OPS: .679
MiL season:
BB rate: 9.0%
K rate: 18.7%
BB/K: .53
OPS: .881
ML season - post call up:
BB rate: 4.3%
K rate: 12.9%
BB/K: .36
OPS: .805
I break Velez down because I think it shows something interesting. He is hitting really well since his call up, and extremely well since he has seen semi-regular playing time, .917 OPS since mid August. He however is not really walking. He is well below league average and that is a red flag (he is not striking out very much, however - which helps). The one bright spot is that during his time in Fresno this season, he walked at a league average rate and kept his strikeouts down, too. His .53 BB/K was solid, and tells me that he is at least somewhat capable of identifying pitches and swinging selectively. While his career #'s are close to his ML numbers from this season, his Fresno numbers (over 171 AB's) give a glimmer of hope that as pitchers start to be more careful with him, he will start taking more pitches and force them back into the zone. You can't blame the guy for not walking much this year (since his call up, anyway) because he has obviously been getting plenty of good pitches to hit (.805 OPS). We really need to see more AB's from Velez to see what happens to the BB rate when the bat cools off before we can make any solid predictions - but I think his Fresno numbers mean there is some chance he puts it all together.
Pablo Sandoval -
ML season:
BB rate: 3.4%
K rate: 9.7%
BB/K: .36
OPS: .842
MiL season:
BB rate: 6.4%
K rate: 13.9%
BB/K: .53
OPS .Alot
Pablo is probably far and away everyone's favorite rookie sensation this summer. Hitting his way from A+ to the ML in one season, he has done a lot to make us think he deserves to be here and hope that he is the homegrown impact bat that this team has been missing for so long. There is one problem - the guy doesn't walk. His 3.4% BB rate puts him as tied with Bengie Molina for 4th worst in the ML amongst players with 400 AB's or more. Even more alarming, his walk rate this year in the minors was pretty bad, too. The guy just doesn't walk very much no matter how you try to qualify it. This is a problem. However, what he also doesn't do is strikeout. That means to me that, regardless of what kind of garbage pitchers are throwing him (and they have started throwing him some doosies) he is hitting it. From his OPS, we can see that he is hitting it pretty well, too. It's been said that Pablo is a "bad ball hitter" much in the vein of Vlad or Bengie. This may be true, but if so he would be the exception to the rule. Can he continue his ML success taking as few pitches as he does? Maybe - he does seem to have some ability to turn pitchers pitches into hits. However, I am ultimately pretty worried that ML pitching will find the pitch he can't hit, and he will suffer a significant drop in performance. His track record lacking a respectable walk rate at any level worries me because it speaks to his approach. Unless he turns out to be a see ball - hit ball impenetrable wall like Molina or Vlad, he is going to have to learn pitch recognition on the fly. That could present a significant challenge for the 21 year old sensation.
FWIW, here are the BB rates of all 2008 Giants w/ more than 200 plate appearances:
Randy Winn: 9.1%
Fred Lewis: 9.8%
Rich Aurilia: 6.4%
Aaron Rowand: 7.7%
Bengie Molina: 3.4%
Emmanuel Burriss: 8.7%
John Bowker: 5.8%
Eugenio Velez: 4.2%
Omar Vizquel: 8.5%
The team, as a whole, clearly does not walk "enough". Hmm...
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This FanPost is reader-generated, and it does not necessarily reflect the views of McCovey Chronicles. If the author uses filler to achieve the minimum word requirement, a moderator may edit the FanPost for his or her own amusement.
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Comments
I don't know what all that shit at the end is, btw...
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on Sep 16, 2008 1:25 PM PDT 0 recs
You can edit it out
#1 JUDY STEFFES FAN
My favorite pie is (name of pie flavor)
Bay City Ball
by xanthan on
Sep 16, 2008 1:28 PM PDT
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Unfortunately, I can't
It’s not there when I click edit.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on
Sep 16, 2008 1:30 PM PDT
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Weird!
#1 JUDY STEFFES FAN
My favorite pie is (name of pie flavor)
Bay City Ball
by xanthan on
Sep 16, 2008 1:31 PM PDT
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THat is what I get for writing in word first
And copying it over, I guess.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on
Sep 16, 2008 1:34 PM PDT
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Yeah, MS Word is goofy with copy/paste (not that you didn’t know that). SB Nation has actually globally implemented a fix for that pretty soon, if they haven’t already, where there is a tool you can copy text into that cleans out all of MS Word’s evil hidden code.
I know because I briefly destroyed Niners Nation by doing a Word paste and one of the IT guys told me so. In his own words:
we recently rolled-out an unannounced new feature on the story/fanpost editor. When you got to make a new post, you’ll notice a small icon with the small blue W icon for Word. If you click that it will open a window where you can paste in the content of a post you wrote in Word. When you save that, it knows how to strip out all the ugly Word formatting, but preserve things like paragraph breaks, etc.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on
Sep 16, 2008 1:53 PM PDT
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Whoops, my second sentence went through a few different iterations, and it looks like parts of each made it into the final copy…
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on
Sep 16, 2008 1:54 PM PDT
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HTS
I actually did use that tool. Apparently, it doesn’t get everything.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on
Sep 16, 2008 2:01 PM PDT
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Oh wow, good on you. This should probably be brought to IT’s attention, then.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on
Sep 16, 2008 2:19 PM PDT
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In fact
I first copied it over straight, and saw the issue in preview.
I then copied it over using the word import tool, and still saw the issue.
Finally, I copied it over using the plain text insert tool, and saw no issue.
So then I posted, and there it is.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on
Sep 16, 2008 2:26 PM PDT
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I’m letting the IT guy know what’s going on because it sounds really weird to me. It might just be a glitch or something. I guess we’ll see.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on
Sep 16, 2008 2:27 PM PDT
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mso-pagination:widow-orphan;
Makes perfect sense to me.
"Ain't got a hope in Hell - that's my belief." - Bon Scott
by victor frankenstein on
Sep 16, 2008 2:27 PM PDT
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Most creative filler/75 ever?
Neglectful father of David Quinowski
by marcello on
Sep 16, 2008 5:55 PM PDT
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So we have 1 guy..
above the league average BB%? weak. BTW 9.3/18.3 = .508 not .60.
proud father of the newly acquired Brandon Crawford..
by Azmanz on Sep 16, 2008 1:27 PM PDT 0 recs
BB/K is not a ratio of percentages
Because BB% is a ratio of PA’s while K% is a Ratio of AB’s.
Or something like that. It confused me too at first.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on
Sep 16, 2008 1:31 PM PDT
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I should state I did not calculate those ratios, they are supplied by Fangraphs.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on
Sep 16, 2008 1:32 PM PDT
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Yeah after I posted that I thought of it.
They really should do K% as ratio to plate appearances or else someone who walks a lot would look like he has a higher K% (because of his lower amount of AB’s).
proud father of the newly acquired Brandon Crawford..
by Azmanz on
Sep 16, 2008 2:28 PM PDT
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Yup
It fucked me up when I did the math, too.
9/18 = .6… huh?
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on
Sep 16, 2008 2:29 PM PDT
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I would also suggest that you check out some of the swing data at Fangraphs. Pablo’s Swing% (total amount of pitches swung at) is really, really high but he’s also making contact on pitches out of the zone at something like +20% over league average.
#1 JUDY STEFFES FAN
My favorite pie is (name of pie flavor)
Bay City Ball
by xanthan on Sep 16, 2008 1:30 PM PDT 0 recs
I didn't want to take this to that level of detail.
There are certainly more factors beyond just BB% and BB/K, but that’s where I wanted this to stop. It was long enough already.
Yeah, Pablo is hitting a lot of pitches out of the zone, and well.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on
Sep 16, 2008 1:34 PM PDT
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thanks
for the great post, FwF. It all seems to point to fairly reasonable indicators, to me. With Velez, I get the impression that most (though clearly not all) of his hits have been hoppers in (or just through) the infield, where he uses his speed to “steal” his way on-base. I may be wrong on that, but it makes me wonder if players with his kind of wheels tend to, in a sense, overcome a low walk% (and perhaps even a low xb-hit rate, by actually stealing 2nd, 3rd). Of course, it also makes sense that that speed could be put to even better use if he (they) could take a few more walks!
by BigO on Sep 16, 2008 1:52 PM PDT 0 recs
Velez has been driving the ball well lately, though. I’ve seen fewer IF hits (gamewinners notwithstanding) and more hard-hit balls overall.
Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.
by delorean on
Sep 16, 2008 1:54 PM PDT
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Velez needs to walk more, period.
Yes, his speed will allow him to reach base safely on more poorly hit balls – however that is not going to compensate for a lack of strike zone recognition.
Right now, the average ML regular is swinging at 25% of pitches out of the zone. Velez is closer to 30%, which tells me he is reaching a little too much.
But it’s not horrible. It goes to support the theory that he is not getting many “opportunities” to walk. He is seeing 52% of pitches in the zone, compared to an average of 50%.
So pitchers aren’t really throwing him garbage yet – and thus you can’t really criticize him for swinging (and making hard contact) like he has been. Pitchers are challenging him (probably because of his slow start) and he is meeting that challenge. We need to see what happens when pitchers start being more careful with him and that zone % goes down. Hopefully he keeps the bat back.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on
Sep 16, 2008 2:11 PM PDT
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so much for that
I just took a peak at Velez’s hit chart on MLB.com, and it would seem that he has about 4 infield hits, and 52 groundouts. Guess the assist from speed is minimal, in this sense. I still can’t shake the feeling that his irregular swing gives a bit of a knack to get balls through the holes, but then these don’t depend on speed (unless the defense has moved in to try to get him).
by BigO on
Sep 16, 2008 2:23 PM PDT
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Yeah, I had that assumption busted earlier this season too.
Now, it should not be discounted that those are 4 IFH that someone else probably would not have gotten – but it’s not a HUGE factor.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on
Sep 16, 2008 2:25 PM PDT
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I'll help you out.
Velez has an IFH% of 8%.
Players w/ more than 400 PA’s in the ML have a % of 5.3
Speed or SSS? I don’t know…
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on
Sep 16, 2008 2:28 PM PDT
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nice
is this still from FanGraphs? I tried to look at BP’s cards, but just got confused…
by BigO on
Sep 16, 2008 2:30 PM PDT
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Yeah
Fangraphs is better for rates.
So Velez has 10 IFH in 220 AB’s.
The average ML regular has 10 IFH in 485.
What would be more telling was his BABIP on IFH – but I don’t know where to dig up that information.
It would be an interesting study. Certainly, faster players will get more IFH – the question is whether or not that # is significant.
I would argue that in Velez’s case, it may be. An extra 10 IFH hits across ~500 AB’s is 20 points of batting / on base average as compared to the rest of the league.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on
Sep 16, 2008 2:35 PM PDT
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One other point
Is that IFH is not the only measure of the effect of speed. RBOE also can be a result of a players speed, causing the defense to rush/make mistakes.
We’ve seen that a few times this year.
These things would all certainly fall under “secondary skills” however.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on
Sep 16, 2008 2:41 PM PDT
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I think
his BABIP on IFH would be somewhere around 1.000.
Do you mean BABIP on balls in the infield?
by Viliphied on
Sep 16, 2008 10:24 PM PDT
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Also, with regards to the lack-o-power you perceive.
Velez’s ISO this season is .131, compared to an “average” I get of .173 for ML.
However, if we look at his ISO since his call up, it is up to .148. Since playing “every” day, his ISO is .190.
So he is actually not as low on power as it might appear.
He’s the kinda guy that can get away w/ a swinging bunt in one AB and then drive a triple into the gap on the next.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on
Sep 16, 2008 2:22 PM PDT
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Some Things
Fred Lewis: “his defense has been anywhere from good to great depending on who you ask”
I haven’t heard many, if anyone, use the word “great” to describe Fred’s defense. Fair to good is more like it.
IMO the BB/K ratio is the most significant stat. Reggie Jackson holds the major league record for Ks with 2597 striking out once in every 3.8 ABs. Sammy Sosa with 2306 Ks also struck out once in every 3.8 ABs. What separates these two is the walks. Jackson’s BB/K is .5, Sosa’s BB/K is .4; a significant difference, and why Jackson was a 1st ballot HoFer .
A better example is our own beloved Shea Hindenburg. He only struck out once in every 7.7 ABs, but he didn’t walk. His BB/K is .3, which is a big reason why he stunk up AT&T.
FLew’s 4.1 BB/K, Velez’s 3.1/3.6, and Sandoval’s .36 are reasons for concern.
My favorite BB/K stat is Joe DiMaggio’s 2.14.
Greetings, Marklar! I am Marklar! This is Marklar.
by marklar on Sep 16, 2008 2:09 PM PDT 0 recs
Certainly BB/K is important, and it is a big part of my discussion.
But you have to be careful, because a player who neither walks or strikes out isn’t necessarily good (even if he has a high BB/K ratio). Just making contact with a lot of pitches isn’t always a good thing.
I think you need to look at BB% first, and then look at K% to get some perspective (and hence, the ratio). A high BB % coupled with a really high K% (Bocock?) is not very good, it just means you can’t hit the ball. That gives pitchers no fear of challenging you in the zone because you are just as likely to not swing (or swing and miss) as anything.
But a low BB% is generally a bad sign, even if the K% is also low. There are very few players who can succeed in this mold.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on
Sep 16, 2008 2:17 PM PDT
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A high BB% combined with a high K%
is not necessarily bad. That is why I quoted the Reggie Jackson stats. Nobody is close to him in the number of total Ks. But his stats show that you can strike out a lot and still be very productive. You can strike out a lot and still be able to hit the ball. Part of Jackson’s production is due to him drawing a lot of walks. Bocock is just not a good hitter; it isn’t the high BB% and high K% that makes him a bad hitter.
Greetings, Marklar! I am Marklar! This is Marklar.
by marklar on
Sep 16, 2008 5:00 PM PDT
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Well
In Bococks case, he has a “high” BB rate of 13% but a rediculous K% of 37% (from memory). While striking out a lot isn’t always a problem (if you walk a lot, Adamn Dunn, Ryan Howard, Etc) striking out a lot without walking a lot is.
My point is just that the ratio itself (BB/K) only tells part of the story, as a player can have a good ratio without much success.
Both BB% and K% are important in this evaluation.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on
Sep 16, 2008 5:08 PM PDT
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I should have checked Bocock's stats
before I replied earlier. I based my comment on your statement that Bocock had a high BB% and a high K%. His BB/K ratio is .4 – not good. This was my point about BB/K being the best indicator. To have a good ratio means that if you K a lot, then you must also get a lot of BBs. I could be wrong, I haven’t looked at everyone, but I don’t think a player can have a good ratio and not be somewhat successful. At least I haven’t found one yet. The bad players I have looked at have BB/K ratios under .5 (Bocock, Hillenbrand, e.g.) The productive ones are over .5. HoFers even higher.
Greetings, Marklar! I am Marklar! This is Marklar.
by marklar on
Sep 16, 2008 5:34 PM PDT
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I don't disagree with you.
But I think you will find few players with both a BB/K ratio > .5 And a lower than average BB%.
The two are intimately connected.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on
Sep 16, 2008 5:48 PM PDT
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Here are a few examples
Of players with great ratios, but not great offensive performances.
Over the last 3 years:
Cezar Izturis. BB/K 1.00, OPS .609 BB% 6.2
Omar Vizquel. BB/K .99, OPS .658 BB% 8.8
Jason Kendall. BB/K .96, OPS .668 BB% 8.0
Luis Rodriguez. BB/K .95, OPS .644 BB% 7.9
The list goes on, there are quite a few players in the > .5 BB/K but < .700 OPS catagory. None of the 4 payers I’ve listed here attained that great BB/K by drawing a lot of walks as much as they did by no striking out.
Striking is bad, but meekly putting the ball in play because you are making contact with garbage pitches isn’t much better.
A good (even excellent) BB/K ratio can be misleading. However, there are very few players who manage to attain a “high” BB% but a low OPS.
Does that make any sense?
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on
Sep 16, 2008 6:05 PM PDT
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Check your math
Izturis’s BB/K ratio is .55, not 1.00, and his BB/AB ratio is 5. Omar is a potential HoFer who’s played 20 seasons. I don’t see your point there. Unless you have ARod at SS most teams would love to find an Omar Vizquel in their system. Besides his BB/AB ratio is 9.9 not 8.8. I didn’t check the others, but it is still a list of major leaguers, most that have had long careers. I would say that qualifies them as at least average to good players. Remember we were talking about Giants rookies and young players. If Bocock turned into Cesar Izturis I would be ecstatic.
The problem with BB/AB ratio is with players like Albert Pujols and Carlos Pena, both have a BB/Ab ratio of 15%. What separates them is the BB/K ratio:
Pujols – 1.37
Pena – 0.49
BTW, OPS:
Pujols – 1.048
Pena – .849
You can find bad players with good BB/AB ratios (Hillenbrand). You won’t find any bad players with low BB/K ratios.
Greetings, Marklar! I am Marklar! This is Marklar.
by marklar on
Sep 16, 2008 6:54 PM PDT
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I took those numbers strait off Fangraphs, so don't blame me if they are wrong.
Perhaps I made an error, I was typing that up on my way out the door. The point still stands that there are more players with great BB/K ratios and sub .700 OPS’s than there are with great BB% and sub 700 OPS. I maintain that a great BB/K ratio in of itself does not a great player make. You can avoid striking out but still be a pretty crappy player.
Arguing this is really retarded, Looking at BB% and then K% (which I have been advocating) is essentially the same as looking at the BB/K ratio (which you have been advocating)
It’s kinda like me saying looking at OBP and SLG is important, while you say what really matters is OPS…
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on
Sep 16, 2008 9:56 PM PDT
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Cesar Izturiz - Just for the record
ABs: 3,131
BBs: 167
Ks: 303
BB/AB: 5%
BB/K: 55%
I will agree that BB% has some value, But I came to believe that BB/K has more when I was looking at K/ABs. I found they were the most misleading of all stats. Maybe that is why I think the same about BB/AB vs. BB/K. As I mentioned before Shea Hillenbrand had a great K/AB ratio. He only K’d once in every 7.7 ABs; much better than Reggie Jackson’s 3.8, and many other HoFers. But he didn’t walk. His BB/K ratio was only 30. Jackson’s was 53. In the interest of fairness, Hillenbrand’s BB/AB is a terrible 3.9%.
I have looked at the numbers for a lot of players. It seems to me you can K alot if you walk a lot. You don’t have to walk a lot if you don’t K a lot and hit for average (i admit, a big qualifier). But you are not necessarily a good player if you only walk a lot.
Greetings, Marklar! I am Marklar! This is Marklar.
by marklar on
Sep 17, 2008 2:09 PM PDT
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I challenge you
To find me 10 players with over 400 AB’s across the last several seasons with > 15% BB AND < .700 OPS.
Empirically, it appears that it is fairly difficult to walk a lot AND be a bad player.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on
Sep 17, 2008 3:45 PM PDT
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I never said that not walking a lot
was a good thing. Go back and read my first comment. My belief, and I still hold to it, is that BB/K is more illuminating than BB%. I quoted several examples of this: Pujols vs. C. Pena, old vs. productive Vizquel, and why Reggie Jackson was so productive in spite of striking out almost 2,600 times.
What about Joe Mauer? Career OPS of .852. BB% 12.3 . BB/K ratio 125 percent. Which stat is more illuminating between BB% and BB/K?
I challenge you to find any good player with a good BB% and a pedestrian BB/K ratio.
Greetings, Marklar! I am Marklar! This is Marklar.
by marklar on
Sep 17, 2008 4:26 PM PDT
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You are clearly missing the point dude.
High BB% =, with rare exception, high OPS.
High BB/K often comes with high OPS, but there are plenty of high BB/K players with low OPS as well.
That is pretty clear if you look at the data over the last 3 years of MLB.
If I wanted to pick either BB% or BB/K as an indicator of OPS – I would go with BB%.
I keep saying this, but this is really a silly argument. Neither stat is very telling in of itself.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on
Sep 17, 2008 4:39 PM PDT
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Walk to Strikeout to Power Ratio
When I am evaluating a young prospect, I look at walks, strikeouts and home runs or extra base hits. The more a player walks, the more I can take the strikeouts. The more power a player has, the more I can take the strikeouts.
Huge generalization, but most of the young players with the Giants in the bigs have too many strikeouts for their walks and power numbers and thus don’t project particularly well.
There aren’t many total bases on strikeouts, and there aren’t many outs records on walks or home runs. Too many strikeouts and too few home runs, and a player has to have an incredible BABIP in order to be a .300 hitter.
by sharksrog on
Sep 17, 2008 5:38 PM PDT
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“The more a player walks, the more I can take the strikeouts.”
“…most of the young players with the Giants in the bigs have too many strikeouts for their walks…”
This is the point I have been trying to make. It was also in the context of evaluating young players, rookies and prospects. Obviously there is enough data on established major leaguers that we can tell who the better are players are.
And I never said that BB/K was exact; exceptions can always be found to counter anyone’s point.
Greetings, Marklar! I am Marklar! This is Marklar.
by marklar on
Sep 18, 2008 10:53 AM PDT
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Adam Dunn
Adam Dunn is a player with a high walk rate and yet a pedestrian K/BB ratio.
by sharksrog on
Sep 17, 2008 5:34 PM PDT
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say what?
Omar, should be be enshrined, ain’t going in for his offense. Unless you are suggesting that his BB/K helps his defense.
Cesar Izturis, while perhaps being Bococks upside, was a terrible hitter (OPS+ 66)
Luis Rodriguez, has an OPS+ of 75. That is bad.
The reason these guys have careers at all is not their offense.
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN
by zenbitz on
Sep 17, 2008 10:01 AM PDT
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Thank You.
My point is just that you can be a very poor hitter but still maintain a high BB/K ratio.
It’s pretty impossible to be a very poor hitter but maintain a high BB%.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on
Sep 17, 2008 10:02 AM PDT
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What?
I am not suggesting that at all. You seem to be thinking of the 2008 version of Omar; what he did at age 41. In his peak years of 27 to 35 he put up some very decent offensive numbers. He will be enshrined for his defense, yes, as was Ozzie Smith, but Omar was a much better hitter than Smith. You cannot compare the good SSs in baseball to ARod or Derek Jeter; those guys are the exceptions.
You conveniently omitted the aforementioned Jason Kendal. The reason he had a career was definitely not only because of his defense. Even after a couple down years his career numbers are .293/.372/.389. Not a lot of power but a better than most catchers. Even discounting his peak OPS of .939 1n 1999, he still had 5 seasons of +.800 OPS.
Greetings, Marklar! I am Marklar! This is Marklar.
by marklar on
Sep 17, 2008 1:32 PM PDT
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But we are not looking at those seasons...
the fact still remains that Omar Vizquel has posted a very good BB/K ratio over the last few years while posting a sub .700 OPS.
And that as evidence that a good BB/K ratio does not automatically mean a good offensive performance is valid.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on
Sep 17, 2008 1:36 PM PDT
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Well, let's look at a season when he was better versus now.
1999: BB/AB = 11.3%
2008: BB/AB = 9.3%
1999: K/AB = 130%
2008: K/AB = 78%
1999: OPS = .833
2008: OPS =.498
in 1999 and 2008 he walked at a comparable rate. in 1999 he walked more than he K’d. in 2008 he K’d more than he walked. To me the the difference between 1999 and now is best illustrated by the BB/K ratio vs. the BB/AB ratio.
Greetings, Marklar! I am Marklar! This is Marklar.
by marklar on
Sep 17, 2008 2:48 PM PDT
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Oh yeah, btw
BB% is BB/PA, not BB/AB.
I’m not sure which you mean.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on
Sep 17, 2008 3:46 PM PDT
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You're Right
I was computing my own BB% and mistakenly using ABs instead of PAs. It would make the BB% numbers that I’ve posted slightly lower, but the BB/K numbers would stay the same.
Greetings, Marklar! I am Marklar! This is Marklar.
by marklar on
Sep 17, 2008 4:29 PM PDT
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In fact,
you don’t even need to go back to 1999. in his last good year, 2006 Omar hit .295/.361/.389 w/ an OPS of .750.
BB/AB = 9.7% Which is much in line with his entire career.
BB/K = 110% Again walking more than striking out.
Greetings, Marklar! I am Marklar! This is Marklar.
by marklar on
Sep 17, 2008 3:27 PM PDT
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I'm really not sure what your point is?
If I take your #‘s to mean that in 2006 Omar walked 9.7% (he actually walked 8.8%) of the time and OPS’ed .750 with a BB/K ratio of 1.1 – then okay. That is one data point.
In 2008 he is walking at a clip of 8.5% and his BB/K ratio has fallen to .79 (which is still really good).
And his OPS has fallen to .498.
So his K/BB ratio dropped significantly, and so did his OPS. However, his K/BB ratio is still VERY good, but his OPS is crap.
His BB% is below average, and so is his OPS.
Two of those things correlate, and two don’t.
It is clear that there are many players with a good K/BB ratio but a crap OPS.
However, there are very few players with a good BB% and a crap OPS.
Logic dictates, then – that BB% is a better indicator of OPS than K/BB ratio.
But frankly, it’s all kinda stupid – because you really need to look at both.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on
Sep 17, 2008 3:53 PM PDT
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AN OPS OF .750 IS NOT GOOD. It’s “decent for a SS”
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN
by zenbitz on
Sep 17, 2008 4:13 PM PDT
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An OPS of .750 would be between Ryan Theriot and Yuni Escobar in decentness.
by Lars The Wanderer on
Sep 17, 2008 4:22 PM PDT
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Pierre
Actually has a very low BB% , but a 1.01 BB/K over his career.
He barely squeaks in at .716 career OPS.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on
Sep 17, 2008 10:32 AM PDT
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What about Ted Williams?
http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=1014040&position=OF
2.85!!!
There are two ways to argue with a woman, and neither of them work. --Carlos Boozer
by samlet on
Sep 16, 2008 2:47 PM PDT
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That is awesome.
It reaffirms my belief that he was the games greatest pure hitter. Had he played in Yankee Stadium, Tiger Stadium, or some other lefty-friendly park, and not lost playing time fighting in 2 wars, he would probably have hit 800+ homeruns.
One of the things about the DiMaggio stats that always astounded me was that he had 369 KOs and 361 HRs lifetime. Reggie Jackson on the other hand had 2,597 KOs and 563 HRs.
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by marklar on
Sep 16, 2008 5:07 PM PDT
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Check out his numbers from 1941
147 walks, 37 HR, 27 strikeouts.
Not only is that a K:BB ratio of about 0.18, he hit .406 with a BABIP of only .378. That’s virtually impossible.
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