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Matt Cain....

From Rotoworld:

Matt Cain was tagged for six runs in 3 1/3 innings by the Padres in a loss on Thursday.

Stick a fork in him. After the rest of the Giants put up a great fight against the Diamondbacks over the previous three days, Cain came out tonight and gave the team no real chance of winning. He must be hurting, because the alternative is worse."

Weirdest Rotoworld quote ever. I know that Cain has struggled over his past three starts, but what in the hell does, "He must be hurting, because the alternative is worse" mean?

Cain doesn't lactate quality starts like Tim Lincecum. We get it. Cain is probably a little tired. But, good gravy, have a little perspective. Pitchers will have back-to-back-to-back poor outings. Don't get all Dylan McKay on us, Rotoworld. Don't jump on your hog and withdraw from society because all is lost. It isn't quite time to say, "Gee, I hope he's hurt, otherwise, he just stinks now! Trade him for Shane Reynolds in your keeper league if you can."

It's time to monitor Cain closely. Don't let him suffer for inning after inning if he's struggling, and don't let him throw 130 pitches the next time he has a good game. It would be a good idea to ease him out of the season. But am I the only one who isn't freaking out about Matt Cain?

Though, if he continues to struggle, we might have to include an additional prospect in the Fielder trade.

Poll
Are you worried about Cain?
Yep. His fastball doesn't have the same zip, his change up is sloppy, and his mental toughness is giving way to a Jan Brady-complex
60 votes
A little. But I worry about all young pitchers who throw a ton of pitches over a season.
183 votes
Not at all. The dude's 23. Twenty-freaking-three. If he were a Red Sox prospect in AA, he'd have a .82 ERA, and the media would be giving him backrubs upon request.
218 votes

461 votes | Poll has closed

Comment 143 comments  |  0 recs  | 

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And if I receive a certain amount of Buzzes, I get 10% at Outback.

by Grant Brisbee on Sep 12, 2008 10:40 AM PDT reply actions  

10% of...

total caloric intake of a normal meal at Outback? Still enough to feed a family of four.

Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.

by delorean on Sep 12, 2008 10:47 AM PDT up reply actions  

I have no idea who Dylan McKay is but I’m buzzing this post anyways!

#1 JUDY STEFFES FAN
My favorite pie is (name of pie flavor)
Bay City Ball

by xanthan on Sep 12, 2008 10:47 AM PDT up reply actions  

WTF? You cannot be serious.

by Grant Brisbee on Sep 12, 2008 10:56 AM PDT up reply actions  

I just googled it and I still didn’t know.

I’ve never seen 90210. Your pop culture references are wasted on me!

#1 JUDY STEFFES FAN
My favorite pie is (name of pie flavor)
Bay City Ball

by xanthan on Sep 12, 2008 10:59 AM PDT up reply actions  

I didn't know who he was either

We’re not all Luke Perryheads like you are, Grant.

Farewell, Ray. We'll miss your smile and your sugar. Welcome, Steve Hammond "Eggs". Throw strikes.
comics | cartoons | Nattowear

by Natto on Sep 12, 2008 11:00 AM PDT up reply actions  

She was killed by her own father, guys. And they were trying to kill Dylan. You can’t respect that kind of pain? You guys are heartless dicks.

by Grant Brisbee on Sep 12, 2008 11:06 AM PDT up reply actions  

I'm With Ya

Long live the Dylan McKay and Luke Perry references. Next time you could go with a reference to him in Buffy The Vampire Slayer.

"Liberal is to the media what the 2008 San Francisco Giants are to good baseball."
-My Father.

by thecrippesking on Sep 12, 2008 11:45 AM PDT up reply actions  

or 7 Seconds or whatever that god awful bull riding movie was…..not that I saw it…um…nevermind.

Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes.

by WilliamVanLandingham on Sep 12, 2008 12:23 PM PDT up reply actions  

8 Seconds?

Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.

by delorean on Sep 12, 2008 12:32 PM PDT up reply actions  

8 Seconds is correct.

"Liberal is to the media what the 2008 San Francisco Giants are to good baseball."
-My Father.

by thecrippesking on Sep 12, 2008 1:16 PM PDT up reply actions  

Went over my head too.

Like Barry Zito, I'm mildly half-OK.

by EliminateMe on Sep 12, 2008 11:55 AM PDT up reply actions  

I always thought that the hole thing was kind of a Godfather I ripoff.

..so allow me to present Tim Lincecum and Matt Cain as two sweet, sweet bottles of warming hooch.

by Cookyman on Sep 12, 2008 12:33 PM PDT up reply actions  

hole = whole

..so allow me to present Tim Lincecum and Matt Cain as two sweet, sweet bottles of warming hooch.

by Cookyman on Sep 12, 2008 12:33 PM PDT up reply actions  

I agree

Sadly to say, I remember that episode. My freshman year of college, that was on in the dorms and most of mine attended. I remember the Noxzema chick getting shot and Luke Perry crying like he was going for a Primetime Emmy or something. It did have the whole mafia undertone thing going for it. Funny what you remember from college.

Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes.

by WilliamVanLandingham on Sep 12, 2008 1:08 PM PDT up reply actions  

my dick never had a heart

by Giant Voodoo on Sep 12, 2008 5:43 PM PDT up reply actions  

GET THE HELL OFF MY LAWN

All of you, what with your Gossip Girls and your vampire books.

Goddamn kids

Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.

by delorean on Sep 12, 2008 11:05 AM PDT up reply actions  

I was 7 when the show started, so I was alive but I never watched it. I know the name of the show but none of the characters or really anything about it.

/lights bag of poop and places it on old man Delorean’s doorstep

#1 JUDY STEFFES FAN
My favorite pie is (name of pie flavor)
Bay City Ball

by xanthan on Sep 12, 2008 11:07 AM PDT up reply actions  

In college, we used to play Drinking 90210. Unlike most drinking games, this one didn’t really have a lot of rules:

1. Pick a character. Ex: “I’m Steve Sanders tonight!”

2. Whenever your character would say something stupid, wear something stupid, or look stupid, people would yell at you to drink.

3. Only pick Tori Spelling’s character if you wanted to blackout and wake up in a vomit-strewn laundry basket.

by Grant Brisbee on Sep 12, 2008 11:10 AM PDT up reply actions  

That sounds fun, it probably made the show watchable!

What year was this, if I may ask?

#1 JUDY STEFFES FAN
My favorite pie is (name of pie flavor)
Bay City Ball

by xanthan on Sep 12, 2008 11:13 AM PDT up reply actions  

The 1860s, I believe.

Farewell, Ray. We'll miss your smile and your sugar. Welcome, Steve Hammond "Eggs". Throw strikes.
comics | cartoons | Nattowear

by Natto on Sep 12, 2008 11:15 AM PDT up reply actions  

1997ish?

Of course, there’s a moral to the story. I’m still in college.

by Grant Brisbee on Sep 12, 2008 11:41 AM PDT up reply actions  

Ahhh…the Academic Decade. I remember it well.

by bgunn on Sep 12, 2008 12:33 PM PDT up reply actions  

I believe Natto's answer.

The Basil Fawlty Moderating Strategy:
"We could run a nice blog here if we didn't have all these members getting in the way."
How is my adopted son almost twice as old as I am? Nevermind...Go Omar! Warm the Bench!

by WalrusMan on Sep 12, 2008 12:53 PM PDT up reply actions  

I remember a house full of girls at my college had a “Hot Damn Dylan’s Back!” party when Dylan returned to 90210. 1999 I believe.

Speed, defense... and an almost fanatical devotion to getting picked off.

by SF Pete on Sep 12, 2008 11:48 AM PDT up reply actions  

All of this 90210 talk is making me feel really old.

I couldn’t even relate to the original show because all of the actors were younger than me….BACK THEN!

GET OFFA MY LAWN…AND MY OXYGEN HOSE!

by Lars The Wanderer on Sep 12, 2008 12:07 PM PDT up reply actions  

Well I wouldn’t mind hearing about the “Who Shot JR?” party you guys had back in the day.

Speed, defense... and an almost fanatical devotion to getting picked off.

by SF Pete on Sep 12, 2008 12:34 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'm fine!

Wait… Are you threatening me???

"He called the sh** POOP!" -- Adam Sandler

by JRPhillips on Sep 12, 2008 12:40 PM PDT up reply actions  

well now i need to clean my keyboard again.

Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!

by daveinexile on Sep 12, 2008 12:42 PM PDT up reply actions  

Afton was a hottie.

Charlene Tilton…lip gloss FTW!

"Ain't got a hope in Hell - that's my belief." - Bon Scott

by victor frankenstein on Sep 12, 2008 12:44 PM PDT up reply actions  

STFU, Gossip Girl is quality trash television!

"While conservatives tell you 'leave things alone and no one will lose,' and liberals tell you 'interfere a lot and no one will lose,' baseball says 'someone will lose.' Not only says it - but insists upon it! ... Democracy is lovely, but baseball's more mature." BVCE supports SF Dugout and Manny Burriss.

by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Sep 12, 2008 1:16 PM PDT up reply actions  

I thought Dylan McKay is a AA prospect for the Cardinals (i.e. Dave McKay’s son). I had no idea this was a character on 90210, a show I never watched once nor do I know who was even on the show.

A gamer does NOT wear a foam finger, a dork does.

by SFGuy on Sep 12, 2008 2:26 PM PDT up reply actions  

I still don’t know what you guys are talking about.

Are those lotto numbers?

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on Sep 12, 2008 1:02 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yahoo buzz, eh? Well, I’m sure the Yahoo community will have some very intellegent non-racist/sexist/homophopic things to say about this.

by chilibean_3 on Sep 12, 2008 10:49 AM PDT up reply actions  

This sounds like a pyramid scheme, one of those GET A FREE* iPHONE deals.

by satyricrash on Sep 12, 2008 10:51 AM PDT up reply actions  

gross...

have you SEEN THE BOSTON MEDIA?

Adopted Giant: Aaron King

Wearing the crown by 2011. Or at least the LOOGY hat

by baetown415 on Sep 12, 2008 1:07 PM PDT up reply actions  

I’m not concerned.

by Hobbes2d on Sep 12, 2008 10:42 AM PDT reply actions  

I am.

“Noah Lowry”

"Ain't got a hope in Hell - that's my belief." - Bon Scott

by victor frankenstein on Sep 12, 2008 11:13 AM PDT up reply actions  

Lowry

was obviously hurt for more than 2 seasons. Until I see the same type of signs then I’ll be worried. Until then, no.

by Hobbes2d on Sep 12, 2008 11:24 AM PDT up reply actions  

Just general concern then.

If it’s fatigue , shut him down. What do we – or he – lose at this point?

"Ain't got a hope in Hell - that's my belief." - Bon Scott

by victor frankenstein on Sep 12, 2008 11:26 AM PDT up reply actions  

Agreed

We should have gone with the AAA rotation so we can tank for Strasburg this entire month.

by Hobbes2d on Sep 12, 2008 11:30 AM PDT up reply actions  

Rotoworld...

Providing quality insightful baseball commentary since…. uh….. wait, I just had it here somewhere. I’ll get back to you.

Disfrute Los Gigantes every day at www.leftymalo.com

by leftymalo on Sep 12, 2008 10:45 AM PDT reply actions  

I’m not worried at all.

Farewell, Ray. We'll miss your smile and your sugar. Welcome, Steve Hammond "Eggs". Throw strikes.
comics | cartoons | Nattowear

by Natto on Sep 12, 2008 10:49 AM PDT reply actions  

Color me concerned.

He’s thrown more pitches and more innings than ever before in his career, and he’s getting hit hard. I hope Bochdoz will handle him gingerly the rest of the way, even though I know he won’t.

Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.

by delorean on Sep 12, 2008 10:50 AM PDT reply actions  

I am with you here.

Look at the list of the 10 players thrown the most pitches in ‘07 and then look at their ‘08 campaigns and I am defiantly whistling has we walk past this grave yard at night .

Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!

by daveinexile on Sep 12, 2008 11:11 AM PDT up reply actions  

Actually this outing was better

His fastball had the right movement and velocity although he was leaving it up; alas the Padres and especially Gonzalez were hitting well. The last game with Pitt Cain was throwing 89 mph fastballs which is very uncainlike. Since he’s young and showing signs of wear maybe the G-men can skip him once in the rotation for rest and keep him at or under 100 pitches for the re0st of the season.

by Change Up on Sep 12, 2008 11:56 AM PDT up reply actions  

Yeah, I thought that was a really bizarre blurb as well. Stick a fork in him… for this season? For ever?

I’m a bit worried that his K/BB ratio has gone to shit the last few starts, but overall, I’m pretty sure he’s just tired. He’s going to be fine.

Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.

by jponry on Sep 12, 2008 10:50 AM PDT reply actions  

Even Johan Santana will have wonky K/BB ratios for a couple of starts. But this reminds me of the first half of last year. OMG Matt Cain isn’t striking out enough people over his first nine starts! His arm is shredded!

by Grant Brisbee on Sep 12, 2008 10:55 AM PDT up reply actions  

“This”, meaning the Rotoworld blurb, not your comment. Your comment reminds me of “Midnight Cowboy”, for some reason.

by Grant Brisbee on Sep 12, 2008 10:56 AM PDT up reply actions  

Hahahaha what.

Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.

by jponry on Sep 12, 2008 11:11 AM PDT up reply actions  

The first half of last year? How about the first half of THIS year? It’s time to face it, guys, Matt Cain isn’t it! He’s a third starter at best! He has no swing-through stuff! Sanchez is better than Cain!

What man? Which man? Who’s the man? When’s a man a man? What makes a man a man? Am I a man? Yes. Technically I am. - FotC

by jcb9 on Sep 12, 2008 11:09 AM PDT up reply actions  

What?

Are you crazy? He’s #1 material who could be forced to a #3 spot because of Timmy and MadBum in a few years. I hate people like you who always insult people at the first sign of failure.

The Basil Fawlty Moderating Strategy:
"We could run a nice blog here if we didn't have all these members getting in the way."
How is my adopted son almost twice as old as I am? Nevermind...Go Omar! Warm the Bench!

by WalrusMan on Sep 12, 2008 12:56 PM PDT up reply actions  

This reply was almost too subtle.

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on Sep 12, 2008 1:03 PM PDT up reply actions  

Do you guys read Rotoworld on a regular basis?

Believe me , this is not the oddest post…if it’s at all possible go back to when they bought Gillaspie’s contract.

Rotoworld is NOT objective , and they are DEFINITELY not pro – Giant.

"Ain't got a hope in Hell - that's my belief." - Bon Scott

by victor frankenstein on Sep 12, 2008 11:16 AM PDT up reply actions  

I actually considered making a fan post based on that very quote. It’s puzzling.

by rotorueter on Sep 12, 2008 10:59 AM PDT reply actions  

They need to shut him down

I said the same in last night’s game thread while watching him pitch.

by Lars The Wanderer on Sep 12, 2008 11:06 AM PDT reply actions  

yeah, i don’t understand why they kept him in as long as they did last night

"ever so cynical yet whimsical giants related signature"

by The Gene Hackman on Sep 12, 2008 11:08 AM PDT up reply actions  

I am definitely concerned

Lots of innings & lots of pitches for a young arm when it really is meaningless doesn’t make a lot of sense to me. I think we have some serious mismanagement going on here.

I know it’s not a popular concept here, but I think the Giants should seriously consider trading Cain for the young impact needs that they sorely need.

Why isn't Sabean held accountable for leading the Giants into many years of mediocrity???

by oldrips on Sep 12, 2008 11:11 AM PDT reply actions  

Cain's not young?

This based on your bolding…

“And now in prep action…”

"Ain't got a hope in Hell - that's my belief." - Bon Scott

by victor frankenstein on Sep 12, 2008 11:19 AM PDT up reply actions  

OOPS

…meant to read “young, impact bats”

Why isn't Sabean held accountable for leading the Giants into many years of mediocrity???

by oldrips on Sep 12, 2008 12:26 PM PDT up reply actions  

IAWTC and your sentiments.

"Ain't got a hope in Hell - that's my belief." - Bon Scott

by victor frankenstein on Sep 12, 2008 12:45 PM PDT up reply actions  

There are maybe a handful of teams that could afford to trade value with us. Then you have to factor in which ones would. then factor in Sabean does not accept minor leagues as any sizeable part of any trade. Then add to it most teams currently are not trading any young help. Top that off if the Giants are not getting 2-3 impact players it does not make since. Its just shuffling the holes around and the Giants would need to find a front of the rotation pitcher to boot. I much harder hole to fill.

In summary would say trading Cain is just not a viable option. The only guy that might bring an impact player at a price other teams would part with is Sanchez.

Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!

by daveinexile on Sep 12, 2008 11:26 AM PDT up reply actions  

I'm very concerned!

It’s not that I think he’s done, or injured, or necessarily that it’s anything more than a rough patch. I don’t like that it’s happening at the end of the year, to be sure. But ultimately, it’s just in my nature to worry about Matt Cain. It’s what I do.

"He called the sh** POOP!" -- Adam Sandler

by JRPhillips on Sep 12, 2008 11:14 AM PDT reply actions  

"...that it's happening at the end of the year..."

Better now than in the middle of (snort) a pennant race (stifles additional nasally dichargelike indicators of amusement)

"Ain't got a hope in Hell - that's my belief." - Bon Scott

by victor frankenstein on Sep 12, 2008 11:31 AM PDT up reply actions  

This made me laugh

I simply mean that it seems like it could be fatigue-related since it’s happening at the end of the season. However, Cain tends to have rough patches occasionally, so it’s not necessarily worrisome. But because I don’t know, I’m going to worry about Matt Cain.

Then I’m going to recommend we put him in a package deal with Jonathan Sanchez, Nate Schierholtz, Henry Sosa, and Randy Winn for Prince Fielder. Problem solved on our end!

"He called the sh** POOP!" -- Adam Sandler

by JRPhillips on Sep 12, 2008 12:25 PM PDT up reply actions  

Except finding clubhouse room for Fielder’s hydroponic garden.

"Ain't got a hope in Hell - that's my belief." - Bon Scott

by victor frankenstein on Sep 12, 2008 12:46 PM PDT up reply actions  

Why the total dismissal of trading Cain?

I don’t get why the issue of trading Cain gets summarily rejected by many commenters here. I’m not saying that he isn’t good and shouldn’t bring back some value, but in order for the GIants to make a serious move in fixing their team, they’re going to have to make some sacrifices. I think Cain is the most logical guy to trade. He’s young, tied up through his arbitration years, talented, and the type of guy that could bring a good return on the open market.

I’m not saying that we should trade him for the sake of trading him, but I wouldn’t consider him untouchable, like I would say about Timmy. We need to make a bold move to get some real hitters on this team, not the likes of the types of guys that we have now, whether on the ML roster or in the minors.

Why isn't Sabean held accountable for leading the Giants into many years of mediocrity???

by oldrips on Sep 12, 2008 2:54 PM PDT up reply actions  

I’m against trading Cain mostly because of my deep sentimental attachment to the guy, but also mostly because of the complete lack of any realistic scenario in which we get back fair value. Not that people don’t try to be realistic, but really…

If a good trade does happen, I’ll back it. Unless there is evidence that a good trade will or can happen, which I don’t see, then I will reject it.

That’s my stance. And explains why I reject it so readily.

The other half of this to remember is that trading Cain isn’t simply getting a good hitter, it’s also losing a good pitcher who you don’t have a replacement for. So unless you really fleeced your trading partner, you’re still looking at coming out of the trade in about the same position you were in before you made it.

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on Sep 12, 2008 3:08 PM PDT up reply actions  

Except that you become a more balanced team by acquiring a real hitter to put in the middle of the lineup. We have more pitchers that are getting close, but we don’t have many hitters that are close at all.

I just don’t think that the concept of trading Cain should be rejected summarily.

Why isn't Sabean held accountable for leading the Giants into many years of mediocrity???

by oldrips on Sep 12, 2008 3:21 PM PDT up reply actions  

To be fair, I don’t see many people doing that (summarily rejecting the idea of trading him). I think HTS does a pretty good job of summing up my feelings: sentimentally attached, and don’t see a plausible/beneficial trade scenario. I’ll add: feeling a little gunshy about trading pitchers. I know good trades are supposed to hurt both teams, but I’m still smarting over Liriano/Nathan/Bonser.

Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.

by delorean on Sep 12, 2008 3:25 PM PDT up reply actions  

All I’m saying is show me something remotely realistic, and we can talk.

I reject the idea of trading Cain when people are being insane about the returns, which is most of what I’ve seen. I also reject the idea of trading Cain when the returns aren’t even considered (the trade Cain because he can bring back a mystery bat scenario), which is the rest of what I’ve seen.

I do not reject the idea that Cain can be traded, and I wouldn’t feign negativity if a good trade actually did happen. But I haven’t seen anything to suggest that one either exists or can be made. I mean, if we can’t even speculate decent, realistic trades….

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on Sep 12, 2008 3:27 PM PDT up reply actions  

There really is no credible scenario

In which the Giants get back equal value for Cain.

Eugeniooooooo!!!!

by FairweatherFan on Sep 12, 2008 3:54 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yes. There is.

Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.

by delorean on Sep 12, 2008 3:59 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yeah, but our rotation, which is already pretty mediocre, becomes even more mediocre. So where are we then?

Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.

by jponry on Sep 12, 2008 4:11 PM PDT up reply actions  

I call Shenanigans!

Let’s pretend for a moment that Matt Cain were to be traded for Prince Fielder, straight up.

What’s effectively happened in this scenario? Let’s see, the pitching staff is weakened by the departure of one of the two best pitchers on the team, and one bat is added to the middle of the lineup. I just don’t see that as truly improving the team.

Look, when you’re in a position like the Giants are, you can’t afford to give away your more talented players just to get perceived equal value in return. That doesn’t improve the team. I summarily reject the notion of trading Matt Cain typically based on the principle that most trade scenarios people present are often one-for-one. If you’re rebuilding your team, one-for-ones to get equal value in return is a ridiculous notion. Trading from a team like this, when there isn’t anyone to replace the departing player, I don’t think you should be looking for fair value. I’d be up front and tell the other side that I’m looking to fleece them if they want what we got. Otherwise, I summarily dismiss.

"He called the sh** POOP!" -- Adam Sandler

by JRPhillips on Sep 12, 2008 4:32 PM PDT up reply actions  

how just don’t see how that does not improve the team. Fielder is a presence in the middle of the lineup…something we don;t have anywhere in our system. Yes, we weaken our pitching staff, but we have a couple of pitchers who are a couple of years away to replace him. We just don’t have that on the hitting side. I think the team is definitely better off in that scenario.

Why isn't Sabean held accountable for leading the Giants into many years of mediocrity???

by oldrips on Sep 12, 2008 4:37 PM PDT up reply actions  

Old rips let me ask you the last time the Giatns orgainiozation as produced a pitcher like Cain? Hint Nixion wasn’t president yet. So to assume the arms in “A” ball will replace Cain is a flaw so be that the Hubble telscope would be need to see most of it.

Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!

by daveinexile on Sep 12, 2008 4:40 PM PDT up reply actions  

Or, in other words.

TINSTAAPP!

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on Sep 12, 2008 5:08 PM PDT up reply actions  

You misspelld...

Tin Staples..

The Basil Fawlty Moderating Strategy:
"We could run a nice blog here if we didn't have all these members getting in the way."
How is my adopted son almost twice as old as I am? Nevermind...Go Omar! Warm the Bench!

by WalrusMan on Sep 12, 2008 5:20 PM PDT up reply actions  

Ahem.

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on Sep 12, 2008 7:44 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'm sticking with Shenanigans

Who’s a couple years away? MadBum and TimA? Maybe. Sosa? Maybe. What do we do until then? Free agent filler garbage off the scrap heap? Overspend on Sabathia? So now we’ve got one bat in the middle of the lineup plus HUGE question marks on the pitching staff until one of our youngers guys is actually ready, not one of whom is a lock to really be able to replace Cain. Maybe that’s a chance you take, but that’s a BIG chance.

It’s fleecing time or it’s nothing, buddy! Otherwise you’re just rearranging the deck chairs… Well, you know.

"He called the sh** POOP!" -- Adam Sandler

by JRPhillips on Sep 12, 2008 4:42 PM PDT up reply actions  

So you’d rather sit back and run a team full of 7th & 8th place hitters out there for the next few years while we use up the years that we control Cain & Lincecum for? Where does that get us in 3 years from now? No hitters & Cain & Lincecum leaving SF for the free agent market with a chance to cash in with an organization that will not only pay them, but also give them a chance to win.

Why isn't Sabean held accountable for leading the Giants into many years of mediocrity???

by oldrips on Sep 12, 2008 4:46 PM PDT up reply actions  

An EXCELLENT point!

And where does trading Cain for someone like Prince Fielder get us in three years? Now we have one bat surrounded by 7th and 8th place hitters while we use up the years that we control Fielder and Lincecum? Only to watch the two of them leave SF for the free agent market with a chance to cash in with an organization that will not only pay them, but also give them a chance to win.

For the record, I think we’re beginning to see some young talent making its way to the major league level. Sandoval, Lewis, maybe Burriss, Posey, etc. can all be solid contributors to the next good Giants team. Perhaps the future isn’t as dire as you believe it to be? We do have young talent coming up, but killing our pitching for a quick fix is just a silly idea.

"He called the sh** POOP!" -- Adam Sandler

by JRPhillips on Sep 12, 2008 4:52 PM PDT up reply actions  

Pitching means squat if you can’t score runs.

Why isn't Sabean held accountable for leading the Giants into many years of mediocrity???

by oldrips on Sep 12, 2008 4:56 PM PDT up reply actions  

And scoring runs means squat if you can’t keep the other team from scoring more.

"He called the sh** POOP!" -- Adam Sandler

by JRPhillips on Sep 12, 2008 4:59 PM PDT up reply actions  

Agreed, that’s why you need balance between offense & defense to be a successful team. The pitching & defense mantra that the Giants brass would like to shove down your throat is not a receipe for success. It’s a tagline for ……“We’ve got some pitching, but we’ve really mismanaged our player development on the offensive side.”

Why isn't Sabean held accountable for leading the Giants into many years of mediocrity???

by oldrips on Sep 12, 2008 5:04 PM PDT up reply actions  

The key word you used there is SOME. As in, we’ve got SOME pitching." As in, not enough pitching that trading one of our two best pitchers for one hitter is a good idea, because that SOME pitching we have isn’t enough to hide the deficiencies we’ll now be seeing because we only traded Cain for one hitter.

Let me put it another way… Trading a now-established major league player for another now-established major league player is a foolish move. Now if the talk was of trading Cain for a couple three top prospects from an organization that’s known to produce decent players, I’d be interested in hearing more, especially if one of those top prospects is a pitcher and one is a power hitter. But Cain for Fielder just doesn’t make sense for a team in our position.

"He called the sh** POOP!" -- Adam Sandler

by JRPhillips on Sep 12, 2008 5:15 PM PDT up reply actions  

Funny that explains all those banners the Reds have won. And our beloved Giantsas won sooo many banners since the mid 60’s.

Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!

by daveinexile on Sep 12, 2008 4:59 PM PDT up reply actions  

Rips when was the last time the Giants signed or developed a power hitter? I bet you its a lot more recently the Nixon Administration. I am for playing better odds. I am for building team that can play well in the post season. The latter requires 2 front end pitchers. Getting a front line starter to replace Cain forces us to field 7th & 8th place hitters. It will Bonds & teh 7 dawf Years all over again. Better then the Spec year but then that isn’t saying much.

For giggles here is a list of players that are due to free Agents in next winter. Golly Gee a few of those player might actually fit and not cost 20 MM per year.

Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!

by daveinexile on Sep 12, 2008 4:56 PM PDT up reply actions  

Hate to break it to you, but all of the impact bats on that list that would be desirable….not available until after the 2009 season……will cost $20MM a year.

Why isn't Sabean held accountable for leading the Giants into many years of mediocrity???

by oldrips on Sep 12, 2008 5:01 PM PDT up reply actions  

that why I said NEXT winter.

Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!

by daveinexile on Sep 12, 2008 5:02 PM PDT up reply actions  

To farther expand who is going to pay LaRoche, Beltre, Mora , Wigginton all getting 20MM year? How do you figure that?

And what would sun set guys them to eh?

Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!

by daveinexile on Sep 12, 2008 5:12 PM PDT up reply actions  

We have more pitchers that are getting close, but we don’t have many hitters that are close at all.

This is the exact opposite of true. Ishikawa, Sandoval, and Schierholtz (along with maybe Bowker) are a lot closer than any starting pitchers in the Giants system.

Trent Kline: Decentish. Also, my website is called ChatterBalks Dot Com. It's not being updated right now. Hope for more at your own risk.

by groug on Sep 12, 2008 5:59 PM PDT up reply actions  

More #7 hitters

Why isn't Sabean held accountable for leading the Giants into many years of mediocrity???

by oldrips on Sep 12, 2008 8:17 PM PDT up reply actions  

As opposed to the glut of 8th starters in the high minors for the Giants? There is no one to take Cain’s place. There are guys who might be decent who are hitters. This is pretty simple math.

Trent Kline: Decentish. Also, my website is called ChatterBalks Dot Com. It's not being updated right now. Hope for more at your own risk.

by groug on Sep 12, 2008 8:32 PM PDT up reply actions  

What makes Cain expendable but Lincecum untouchable?

Just because Lincecum has peaked sooner then Cain has? If you really wanted to get something good back you would trade the guy with the most value, which would be Lincecum. But I’m sure you would NEVER do that.

by Hobbes2d on Sep 12, 2008 4:23 PM PDT up reply actions  

I honestly don’t believe that Cain will ever be as good as Lincecum. Just my opinion…but I don’t think there’s any comparison.

Why isn't Sabean held accountable for leading the Giants into many years of mediocrity???

by oldrips on Sep 12, 2008 4:38 PM PDT up reply actions  

also in agreeance

Cain will never be as good as Lincecum is now.

Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.

by delorean on Sep 12, 2008 4:45 PM PDT up reply actions  

True

But I’d bet that Cain will improve beyond what he is now.

"He called the sh** POOP!" -- Adam Sandler

by JRPhillips on Sep 12, 2008 4:46 PM PDT up reply actions  

i agree with that, too.

Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.

by delorean on Sep 12, 2008 4:53 PM PDT up reply actions  

Again I don’t think a legit package is out there to be gotten. Only a handful of teams have the goods to even pony up the price. Fewer of them would do it. Pluss Sabean will not except the currency they would use ( unproven, not yet MLB veterans). So you get some bastardized version of a Rios trade. I already leaved through Spec Richardson once, Thank you. No

Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!

by daveinexile on Sep 12, 2008 4:42 PM PDT up reply actions  

I haven’t seen his last couple of starts. Is he looking tired out there? Arm angle changing? Less velocity? If he’s looking like he’s worn out, then by all means give him the rest of the season off and let his arm start recovering.

No, really, I have updated my blog this year: http://skaldheim.livejournal.com/tag/baseball

by Skaldheim on Sep 12, 2008 11:15 AM PDT reply actions  

He is only 23, but this is his 3rd full year in the league. I think it’s reasonable to expect a little more from him.

by G-Rob on Sep 12, 2008 11:19 AM PDT reply actions  

Even with his recent troubles, he’s still 35th in the majors in VORP among pitchers. Before he started struggling, he was in the top 20.

Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.

by jponry on Sep 12, 2008 11:23 AM PDT up reply actions  

NO HE SUCKS

What man? Which man? Who’s the man? When’s a man a man? What makes a man a man? Am I a man? Yes. Technically I am. - FotC

by jcb9 on Sep 12, 2008 11:26 AM PDT up reply actions  

VORP standing for Very Overrated and Really Poor

by rotorueter on Sep 12, 2008 11:30 AM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

LOL

Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes.

by WilliamVanLandingham on Sep 12, 2008 12:31 PM PDT up reply actions  

In 2004,

CC Sabathia was only 23, but was already in his 4th full year in the league. It was reasonable to expect a little more from him. In 1990, Tom Glavine was only 24, but was already in his 3rd full year in the league, It was reasonable to expect a little more from him. In 1994, John Smoltz was only 24, but was already in his 3rd full year in the league. It was reasonable to expect a little more from him.

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Sep 12, 2008 11:57 AM PDT up reply actions  

Good Point...

All these guys had 3-4 years experience under their belts, but they did not have stellar seasons in those years. Sabathia had pitched 200 innings in 2002, but would not do so again until last year. Glavine had a 4.29 ERA in 1990 and went on to win the Cy Young in 1991. Smotlz, well, he was 27 in 1994, but he went on to win the Cy Young in 1996.

Matt Cain will probably pitch at least 210 innings this year, with maybe as many SO as his rookie year. I think Cain is one of those guys who will put it all together in the blink of an eye and turn into a Halladay/Sabathia esque innings eating ace. Maybe that is a little optimistic, but that is the way I see it.

Still, I am concerned about the high pitch counts the guys has had. The walk rate has been out of control in the second half in a way it has not been in Cain’s career.

by Squire_Boone on Sep 12, 2008 1:03 PM PDT up reply actions  

You make a good point. My expectations are probably too high. He’ll probably do better next year. It’s just frustrating to see him struggle like he did last night against a team like the Padres. I also looked at different pitchers for comparison at the same age regardless of experience, particularly Billingsley who has pitched much better this year.

by G-Rob on Sep 12, 2008 1:52 PM PDT up reply actions  

Well, the fact that Cain is on a similar path as guys like Glavine and Sabathia does not mean that he will have their type of careers. I could be dead wrong. But, I think it does show that pitchers are guys who usually reach their full potential between ages 25-27 (give or take a year).

Cain could still have frustrating years in the future, or he could start fulfilling expectations next year. I just think he is young enough, and has shown enough flashes of his true potential, to deserve a little slack.

by Squire_Boone on Sep 12, 2008 4:52 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yeah, there will be guys like Billingsley, Lincecum

That doesn’t mean that every good pitcher is going to follow that development path.

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Sep 13, 2008 6:32 AM PDT up reply actions  

I HATE YOU

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on Sep 12, 2008 1:05 PM PDT up reply actions  

OT- Grant

Do you think Dylan ever found out that his half-sister became a prostitute? I’m guessing he would have killed Kelly and Brandon had that been the case. That might have made for a fun episode come to think of it.

by Hobbes2d on Sep 12, 2008 11:26 AM PDT reply actions  

Especially if the Brandon was Webb.

time on my hands. It’s murder , I tell ya…

"Ain't got a hope in Hell - that's my belief." - Bon Scott

by victor frankenstein on Sep 12, 2008 11:32 AM PDT up reply actions  

Concerned, am I.

With him sucking and all, I would be much less concerned if he was Tim Lincecum. Then he wouldn’t suck, and wouldn’t get injured.

STEVE HOLM! refuses to be the odd man out.

by UnleashTheGore on Sep 12, 2008 11:48 AM PDT reply actions  

Definitely worried and fearful

And I totally own that a big part of that is just my nature. But Cain hasn’t seemed “right” to me or terribly consistent for most of the season, nor really big patches of last season.

As for the shutting him down theme that emerges from this thread, though, I am of two minds. One: if there is a chance that he will get injured in any lasting way by continuing to throw, then shut him down. Two: if no real risk of sustained injury, then keep pitching him. How are guys ever supposed to develop full-season type of arm strength if they don’t pitch the whole season? So he’ll not be good; this team won’t even notice the additional losses. But like I said, that’s only if he’s not really risking injury by continuing.

I'm adopting a true Giant and an awe-inspring gamer: tk. "Atta babe."

by Mayor of 311 on Sep 12, 2008 12:29 PM PDT reply actions  

Although Rotoworld went over the top

on that comment, the sentiment is correct. His velocity seemed to be up from before, but so were his pitches, and he didn’t pitch as well as freaking Hennessey did. He’s either tired, showing bad mechanics, or not focusing enough, but I’ll defer to those of you who have watched him more closely than me.

And it’s not the first time he’s had bad starts where it seems his head isn’t in to it.

Meet my three little friends: Timmy, Dirty, and Cain

by Buck Henry on Sep 12, 2008 12:36 PM PDT reply actions  

I think that it might just be attributed to the fact that he is a young pitcher still trying to find consistency. Yeah, he’s 23 and has been in the league for 3 years but that doesn’t mean his pitching has matured to the point where he’s not allowed to have consecutive bad starts. The fact is he was luckier and he had the run support, he might be 12 – 8 instead of 8 -12 and this might not be an issue (if you are swayed by the win stat). Funny what high expectations will do to a young pitcher. We expect you to be able to place every pitch perfectly and also that when you do make a good pitch the hitter isn’t allowed the mash it (the HR to Macias last night was a good pitch – down and in). Dude throws hard and is only 23.

I don’t think he is done. He could easily bounce back and give you one of those good Cain games ( allow 1 or 2 runs). As for Rotoworld, I haven’t visited that site much to really too much to have an opinion, but I would have to say they are wrong on this one.

Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes.

by WilliamVanLandingham on Sep 12, 2008 12:55 PM PDT reply actions  

He's definitely not done by any means,

which is why I think RW went over the top. But his focus seems to have wandered several times this year, and the pitches are getting up. Again, it could simply be he’s tired, or hasn’t nailed down the mental toughness part yet since he’s only 23.

Meet my three little friends: Timmy, Dirty, and Cain

by Buck Henry on Sep 12, 2008 1:02 PM PDT up reply actions  

I suppose....

That if we follow Rotoworld’s logic, than the D’backs should be sticking a fork in Brandon Webb too. That guys has imploded in a far bigger way in his last few starts than Cain has.

by Squire_Boone on Sep 12, 2008 1:05 PM PDT reply actions  

I’m not worried, but I’m only saying that so I can be like “I TOLD YOU GUYS DUDE CAN PITCH” in the next gameday thread during a game in which he dominates.

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on Sep 12, 2008 1:06 PM PDT reply actions  

Fielder Trade

Let’s do it. Cain for Fielder, keep Molina as the catcher, play Sandoval at third, and sign CC Sabathia. Then we put Ochoa and Velez at short and second to provide a sense of scale.

by FPTV on Sep 12, 2008 1:24 PM PDT reply actions  

I was looking through their fantasy football player updates and I actually found their reporting to be fairly objective until I saw their blurb on Jeff Garcia:

Profootballtalk.com reports that Bucs are shopping Jeff Garcia and are “willing to take anything they can get.”
Jon Gruden and Garcia are reportedly “ready to kill each other.” The Bucs look set to go forward with Luke McCown backing up Brian Griese after benching Garcia. If Packers GM Ted Thompson wasn’t so married to his draft picks, including late-rounders, Green Bay would be a good fit. But no team is going to go out of its way for a twinkle toed 38-year-old with an illogically big ego.

I don’t really visit this site, so I don’t if this is fairly common, or this guy just really hates Jeff Garcia.

Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes.

by WilliamVanLandingham on Sep 12, 2008 1:26 PM PDT reply actions  

Don’t talk about Jeff Garcia in earshot of Howtheyscored. He may go postal!

"He called the sh** POOP!" -- Adam Sandler

by JRPhillips on Sep 12, 2008 1:47 PM PDT up reply actions  

Jeff Garcia can suck it, Russell Martin.

Illogically big ego? Illogically big head, too! Must have made it hard to jump every time he throws carrying that half ton crate on top of his neck!

GRRR! howtheyscored HATE JEFF GARCIA!

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on Sep 12, 2008 2:33 PM PDT up reply actions  

So you agree with that blurb?

Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes.

by WilliamVanLandingham on Sep 12, 2008 3:23 PM PDT up reply actions  

I agree with the part that is insulting Jeff Garcia. The rest of it, I really have no comment on.

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on Sep 12, 2008 3:28 PM PDT up reply actions  

Dude, if you’re going to be the next starting QB for the Niners, you might want to be a little more gracious than this.

Hire a PR guy already!

"He called the sh** POOP!" -- Adam Sandler

by JRPhillips on Sep 12, 2008 5:20 PM PDT up reply actions  

I’m waiting for PRPhillips to return my phonecalls.

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on Sep 12, 2008 7:44 PM PDT up reply actions  

Agree with the blurb. Garcia has no eason to be copping an attitude in his position.

Why isn't Sabean held accountable for leading the Giants into many years of mediocrity???

by oldrips on Sep 12, 2008 4:39 PM PDT up reply actions  

What’s not correct about that post by Rotoworld?

Why isn't Sabean held accountable for leading the Giants into many years of mediocrity???

by oldrips on Sep 12, 2008 2:46 PM PDT up reply actions  

Two posts in one!

Serious answer: I haven’t watched Cain’s last few starts, but I’m wondering whether his sub-par performances aren’t related to him being mentally tired and lacking some focus. It’s the end of another losing season for him and the team, he’s leading the league in innings pitched, and even if he doesn’t say it to the press, there’s gotta be a part of him that’s frustrated with his lack of run support during all those games where he pitched brilliantly—for chrissakes, even freaking BARRY ZITO has more wins. Didn’t he have something like a 1.90 ERA in July but only went 2-3? Eventually that must get to you, even if you have a thick skin.

Joking answer: He’s pitching poorly because the Netflix service interruption delayed his order of “The Notebook” and “Sex and the City” from getting delivered on time.

No, my Crazy Crab bobblehead is not for sale.

by Kitspool on Sep 12, 2008 1:43 PM PDT reply actions  

Yes! (to serious answer)

A person can only suck up a loss so many times. The Giants have scored so few runs for Cain that he must feel he’s got to be perfect. This cannot help

by Shoeless on Sep 12, 2008 4:05 PM PDT up reply actions  

MaTt CaIN TeH SuCKs OnLy 8 wins LoLz

"I think I was the best player I ever saw"
Willie Mays, you ain't kidding

by CB30 on Sep 12, 2008 3:33 PM PDT reply actions  

Rotoworld hates the Giants

Anyone else see what they wrote under Drew Macias’ note. “Macias is used to facing Double-A pitching, so he was perfectly prepared for Matt Cain”

Alright? dicks.

Rotoworld has always hated the Giants. Thats why I stopped reading what they write, but back when I did I copied some of their best anti-Giants material. Let me share.

“Triple-A Fresno’s Brian Bocock went 0-for-5 with three strikeouts on Tuesday and is 4-for-31 since being sent down.
It’s like the Giants said to themselves, "Let’s destroy whatever shred of confidence he might have left after he hit .143 in 77 major league at-bats.” Except they probably wouldn’t have used that many big words."

“Barry Zito is just the third pitcher in Giants history to begin the season 0-7, and the first to do it in 81 years.
With all the attention Brandon Webb is getting for his 8-0 start, it’s important that we don’t forget about Zito’s record-setting campaign.”

“The Giants said Merkin Valdez is nursing tightness in his right forearm.
Surprisingly, the Giants haven’t put him on the DL. It’s odd that they’d want to take any chances with a pitcher coming back from Tommy John surgery in a year in which they’re not going to contend. But they are the Giants.”

Im just curious as to what Dodger fan they have writing for them. Way to to be unbiassed Rotoworld. I dont know though. I dont really read their non-giants stuff. Maybe they are just all around assholes.

by kvdp12 on Sep 12, 2008 6:24 PM PDT reply actions  

Seems like the correct amount of editorial sarcasm to me. The points are all well taken.

Why isn't Sabean held accountable for leading the Giants into many years of mediocrity???

by oldrips on Sep 12, 2008 8:19 PM PDT up reply actions  

I agree with all of these comments except for the first one.

..so allow me to present Tim Lincecum and Matt Cain as two sweet, sweet bottles of warming hooch.

by Cookyman on Sep 13, 2008 2:56 AM PDT up reply actions  

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