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Kevin Frandsen or Emmanuel Burriss

Cute_tiny by starry night on

It has been extremely tough watching the Giants play this season (to say the least)... I have been trying to find all the positives with this season and I must say that Emmanuel Burriss has to be one of the positives. Other positives include: Lincecum, Cain, Sanchez, Wilson, & Hinshaw.

Star-divide

Anyhow, back to point... Who will be the starting future 2nd baseman for the Giants? With Durham being traded to the Brewers it seems as if this position is for the taking to whomever proves themselves worthy. I haven't seen enough of Emmanuel Burriss to say that he's a sure knock in, BUT he's been extremely good defensively and I've definitely become a big fan of his. I've seen Kevin Frandsen play and quite frankly I feel that when he comes back healthy he's going to have to earn a position on the roster... I've read some stuff in the paper which says the Giants feel that although Burriss is a good SS, he can be one of the best 2nd basemen in the game.
Giants officials said that Burriss could become one of the best second basemen in the game
link where the quote came from

I'm not sure exactly what the Giants want to do, or where they envision Frandsen when he comes back...

I just wanted to see how all of you felt about this matter.

This FanPost is reader-generated, and it does not necessarily reflect the views of McCovey Chronicles. If the author uses filler to achieve the minimum word requirement, a moderator may edit the FanPost for his or her own amusement.

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best DEFENSIVE 2b

put him at SS plz.

by Viliphied on Aug 7, 2008 9:45 AM PDT reply reply   0 recs

Obviously I pick Manny but I am biased. :)

Other compelling factors for him: he was the high draft selection. He was fast-tracked to the majors. Yes, the decision to fast track him was ill-advised and I still don’t agree with how they’re using him. But he’s not crashing and burning like his unfortunate buddy Brian Bocock. In fact he’s showing flashes of brilliance.

If Burriss and Frandsen were to be graded they’d both have incompletes on their report cards. It sucks for Frandsen that he had the catastrophic injury this season. This year was as good as any for him to have his chance.

Not everyone subscribes to the “let’s throw Guy X out there and see what he can do” theory like I do, in these times. It worked for Fred Lewis. Will it work for Frandsen? Will there be a time for him to have his chance? We don’t know that. If the organizational philosophy is to still play these nothing veterans and idiot pickups from the scrapheap while crowing “rebuiling! rebuilding!” then we may not see Frandsen get a chance.

It is to say I don’t think the fate of either man is totally in his control. And that’s pretty depressing.

I should have posted on AngelIntheInfield’s post on rebuilding. I want to know who the F thinks it’s rebuilding if Jose Castillo is getting starts at second base over Burriss. There is nothing left to live for this season. It’s over. Fate has been cast. Get that Koopa Troopa looking fool out of there and play the goddamn kids already.

"While conservatives tell you 'leave things alone and no one will lose,' and liberals tell you 'interfere a lot and no one will lose,' baseball says 'someone will lose.' Not only says it - but insists upon it! ... Democracy is lovely, but baseball's more mature." BVCE supports SF Dugout and Manny Burriss.

by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Aug 7, 2008 9:47 AM PDT reply reply   0 recs

He was fast-tracked to the majors.

don’t you think that was more out of necessity than merit?

Bonds stands alone.

Proud adopted parent of future big league slugger Thomas Neal

by nostocksjustbonds on Aug 7, 2008 10:33 AM PDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

In the very next breath I mention the decision was ill advised so yes, it was out of necessity.

"While conservatives tell you 'leave things alone and no one will lose,' and liberals tell you 'interfere a lot and no one will lose,' baseball says 'someone will lose.' Not only says it - but insists upon it! ... Democracy is lovely, but baseball's more mature." BVCE supports SF Dugout and Manny Burriss.

by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Aug 7, 2008 10:41 AM PDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

it’s not even really fair to say he was “fast-tracked” is there a such phrase as “lightning-tracked” or something that goes way beyond fast? Somebody could write a book on horribly the Giants “plan” for his development has been.

by FluLikeSymptoms on Aug 7, 2008 1:26 PM PDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

except

He isn’t sinking in the majors, and may in fact be progressing fine there, so that book might be a short, meandering mess of sniffling faux expertise.

by haverecords on Aug 7, 2008 2:40 PM PDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

+1 to both Flu and have

"While conservatives tell you 'leave things alone and no one will lose,' and liberals tell you 'interfere a lot and no one will lose,' baseball says 'someone will lose.' Not only says it - but insists upon it! ... Democracy is lovely, but baseball's more mature." BVCE supports SF Dugout and Manny Burriss.

by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Aug 7, 2008 2:50 PM PDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

yeah, so far what he has done in the majors is very impressive (and surprising). It may turn out that the kid is so good that he makes it in spite of getting jerked around.

by FluLikeSymptoms on Aug 7, 2008 6:57 PM PDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

or

he might be the sort that progress better in advanced conditions. He is clearly a smart player who understand the game well (and apparently he’s been something of a student of the game since he was young), and that might allow him to adjust quickly, and pick up more of what he’ll need to learn to be a player at the MLB level.

Remember every player is a unique situation, even though the general pattern of develop still obtains as general pattern. Being thrown into the fire too early often hurts players, but some players need that sort of thing to excel. While it isn’t clear that Burriss is that latter sort, he may well be.

by haverecords on Aug 7, 2008 9:13 PM PDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

error

‘general pattern of development’ that is,

by haverecords on Aug 7, 2008 9:13 PM PDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

well, if that is true than it is a happy accident of him succeeding in spite of the Giants jerking him around.

Last year he started in high A and after failing there (.156/.233/.180) the Giants sent him down to low A where he did quite well in what seemed like the more appropriate level for him. I find it pretty hard to believe that the Giants saw something in that (his first full season in pro ball) that suggested he really needed to be challenged at an advanced level.

but I hope you’re on to something with that theory

by FluLikeSymptoms on Aug 7, 2008 11:22 PM PDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

well, if that is true than it is a happy accident of him succeeding in spite of the Giants jerking him around.

Let’s not go crazy here. Burriss has perhaps adapted to the bigs a little better than one might’ve expected, but he’s been one of the worst hitters in baseball thus far. “Succeeding” may be putting it strongly.

Thus far, Burriss looks to be Juan Pierre offensively. Of course, he’s a solid shortstop, rather than a bad center fielder, so he’s more useful than Pierre. A guy like Burriss could contribute to a winning team. But he’d be more likely to contribute as a bench piece… he’d be stretched as a starter.

by onlxn on Aug 8, 2008 1:10 AM PDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

a .270 average makes for ‘one of the worst hitters in baseball so far’ 13 So in 148 AB? Serious?

I generally agree about the bench piece, but I do think Burriss might end up being more. If he can better his plate discipline, and take more walks, he could stick nicely—and he could reasonably achieve this (not saying he will, of course).

by haverecords on Aug 8, 2008 1:29 AM PDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Yeah it was a surprising call up. I doubt the Giants saw something in his first year that suggested to them he needed to be challenged more. (Though they could have seen him correct some of the mistakes he was making in high a, perhaps allowing his transferable skills—that is, those which would transfer to MLB, to do so).

I suspect what happened is that they called him up to spell the tired and struggling Bocock, expecting competent defense and slightly better offense, but found themselves happily surprised at his play (and hopefully, his ability to learn as a sub at the MLB level).

by haverecords on Aug 8, 2008 1:35 AM PDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Burriss at SS, Frandsen at 2B. They’re our best options at both positions.

by rotorueter on Aug 7, 2008 9:49 AM PDT reply reply   0 recs

Until Noonan arrives of course.

"While conservatives tell you 'leave things alone and no one will lose,' and liberals tell you 'interfere a lot and no one will lose,' baseball says 'someone will lose.' Not only says it - but insists upon it! ... Democracy is lovely, but baseball's more mature." BVCE supports SF Dugout and Manny Burriss.

by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Aug 7, 2008 9:51 AM PDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

That is of course he has learned to take a walk by the time he’s in Fresno.

Can’t wait for his SJ debut next season.

Adopted brother of the AnVil / GIANTSPACE™ returns!

by SoFa King Mike on Aug 7, 2008 9:56 AM PDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

I’m giddy about the 2009 SJ squadron.

"While conservatives tell you 'leave things alone and no one will lose,' and liberals tell you 'interfere a lot and no one will lose,' baseball says 'someone will lose.' Not only says it - but insists upon it! ... Democracy is lovely, but baseball's more mature." BVCE supports SF Dugout and Manny Burriss.

by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Aug 7, 2008 10:04 AM PDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

+1000

I wonder if Gillaspie or Posey will start there, also.

It is good to see Noonan has busted out of his recent slump, btw.

by haverecords on Aug 8, 2008 1:37 AM PDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

+1

Please God, let us have at least average hitters at each position

by Change Up on Aug 7, 2008 10:03 AM PDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Denker at 2B please.

Neglectful father of David Quinowski

by marcello on Aug 7, 2008 10:15 AM PDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

I really do not understand

The argument for Denker over Frandsen.

I do agree that Denker has the strongest case other than Frandsen for the 2b job, but I also think that Frandsen has a slight edge in the here and now.

Frandsen has a higher career MiL OPS as well as some previous success at the ML level. He is also a little older, which means that we either need to give him his shot now or forgetaboutit and send him down the AAAA route (I’m sick of 27 year old “prospects” making their ML debuts).

Frandsen may turn out to be an AAAA player, but I don’t think he has done anything yet to demonstrate that this is the most likely outcome. In my eyes, Denker and Frandsen are fairly equivalent in terms of offensive production, with Frandsen edging Denker out in every category except HR’s.

I’m really not sure why one could desire Denker over Frandsen, based on the #’s.

Eugeniooooooo!!!!

by FairweatherFan on Aug 7, 2008 10:34 AM PDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

In the short term, I would agree that Frandsen is probably the answer since Denker needs more time in the upper minors. But I would prefer Denker as the long term solution.

I’m curious about Frandsen’s average and whether he’ll be able to sustain it in the majors. If he can’t, he’ll be a terrible player since he doesn’t walk or have any power. Denker, on the other hand, has a good eye and some pop.

Neglectful father of David Quinowski

by marcello on Aug 7, 2008 10:46 AM PDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Prefering Denker as the long term solution

Based on current numbers? – Maybe?

But right now (assuming he rehabs back to previous levels) Frandsen needs to play 2b next season and we can let Denker try to take his job in 2010.

But yes, it appears we are in agreement that today (ignoring DL) Frandsen is the more appropriate choice for 2b.

Eugeniooooooo!!!!

by FairweatherFan on Aug 7, 2008 10:59 AM PDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Omar would make a great defensive 2b as well.

And, In fact, I think that Manny would make a great defensive 1b too. Just being great defensively at the position doesn’t mean that is where you should play. You need to have the bat to carry you there, as well.

If there is any position on the infield where this team has something resembling depth, it is second base. Of all the potential Second base candidates, Burriss has both the weakest bat as well as the most chance of being able to play SS (which is quite likely tied with 3rd as our biggest positional black hole).

Bursiss’ bat is going to be lacking for a 2b. It could, however, be sufficient at SS.

It makes, by far, the most sense to play Buriss at SS this season and see if he can stick there. If so, and his production at the plate continues it’s current place, I think that makes him a pretty decent young player.

At 2b, regardless of his defensive prowess, his Bat will always make him below average.

You need to make a LOT of brilliant plays @ 2b to make up for a .311 slugging percentage. Probably an unrealistic #.

Eugeniooooooo!!!!

by FairweatherFan on Aug 7, 2008 9:54 AM PDT reply reply   0 recs

Medium and long term I agree with you.Short term things get sticky.

Currently the Giants looking at Frandsen, Burriss, Travis D filling in time at 2nd in ‘09.

Personally Frandsen has not impressed ( defensively) me in most of the positions he has played at in the MLB. The expectation being 2nd and my jury is out on him at third. For the purposes of conversation I’ll assume he returns healthy. There is also the possibility he is playing a fair amount at third next year.

Travis D. might still be a half season or more way. In either case when the they bring him up for Gawds sake play the kid!

Thus I have no problem with Burris playing a lot at second ( with some SS time to keep his hand in that position active) next season tell things solidify at second or ( miracles of miracles) third.

Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!

by daveinexile on Aug 7, 2008 10:08 AM PDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

I guess I just feel

That Buriss should be playing the bulk of his time @ SS in order to improve his defense there, and he can always slip to second if that is what works out best long term for unforeseen reasons..

Eugeniooooooo!!!!

by FairweatherFan on Aug 7, 2008 10:22 AM PDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

I also think

That while Frandsen isn’t going to be a whiz with the glove, he can certainly hit a little (and better than any of the other options).

And defense just isn’t that important in the grand scheme of things. Frandsen’s un-stealler D is not going to devalue his offensive production, much like Fred Lewis.

Eugeniooooooo!!!!

by FairweatherFan on Aug 7, 2008 10:27 AM PDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

I get you. Usually I would be echoing your words. But these are not yet usual times for the Giants.

I really don’t see anything on the INF free Agent market worth more then a 2 year contract ( maybe Blalock if his option is not used, Crede and Furcal that’s it. ) So that means need to look in house, waiver wire and rule 5 for 2nd, SS and 3rd. If Frandsen can hold down 3rd defensively, Ochoa continues the trend at SS with his glove having Burris hold down 2nd actually might give the team a real infield defense. I think its unlikely the Giants bring in a power bat but they could at least improve in one aspect of the game w/o spending a dime or committing to several years of "meh" from a single player.

And if they did bring ina power bat ( Burrell or Dunn) moving them to First base would make the most sense. Lets the team continue to sift through the "maybe he is maybe he isn’t" O.Fers and gives the Team punch at first. Even if the "D" takes a hit its still a large over all improvement.

Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!

by daveinexile on Aug 7, 2008 10:39 AM PDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

crap. time to clarify...

meant to say nothing in the INF free Agent market at 2nd, ss & 3rd is worth more then 2 years. and only those 3 would i consider a 2 year contract for.

Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!

by daveinexile on Aug 7, 2008 10:41 AM PDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

After seeing both players in limited action, I’ve gotta think so far Ochoa is the better SS with the glove. I am really impressed with him, and a little upset he wasn’t called up instead of Bocock at the beginning of the year. While I realize the Glen Hubbard era is over at 2B, I don’t mind Burriss’ .311 slugging % there as much because he brings a lot to the game with his legs/bunging ability. He may be able to serve as a second leadoff hitter kind of 2 hole hitter in the future.

by tyrannoman on Aug 7, 2008 10:17 AM PDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

It's a problem

Because this team is not likely to be overflowing w/ power at any of the other infield positions in the realistic future to compensate for it.

The best we can hope for over the next 3-4 years is average or mildly above average offensive production from any given infield position (barring some unforeseen emergence).

Putting a .311 slugging percentage @ 2b means that, in order to achieve average offense, we need to find a well above average 1b, 3b, or SS to compensate.

That is a lot more difficult than finding an average 2b and sliding Buriss to SS.

Eugeniooooooo!!!!

by FairweatherFan on Aug 7, 2008 10:25 AM PDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Over 3 -4 year terrm I agree Burriss should be at SS.

Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!

by daveinexile on Aug 7, 2008 10:43 AM PDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Absolutely

Burriss at SS is the best short-term solution. Frandsen deserves the shot at 2B next year, baring an Ishikawa-like resurgence by Denker in Spring Training next year.

Of course, none of this matters when Noonan takes over 2B and Posey takes over SS.

Your 2011 SF Giants: the 2008 Augusta Greenjackets!

by Lyle on Aug 7, 2008 12:58 PM PDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Yeah. Since neither of them have the bat at play anywhere else, Ochoa and Burriss should be competing for the starting SS job. The loser should be kept around for a Ramon Martinez-type utility infielder.

I really wish Velez could make enough progress to stick at 2B, letting Frandsen move to 3B. Add Burrell (or Texiera) and the team would look better heading into next season.

Adoptive father of howtheyscored. The beatings will begin momentarily.

by Goofus on Aug 7, 2008 1:02 PM PDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

I’m not sure what “bunging ability” is, but it sounds like something nasty.

Adoptive father of howtheyscored. The beatings will begin momentarily.

by Goofus on Aug 7, 2008 1:03 PM PDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

I hear it's big in prison

Some guys prefer jelly others like maple syrup.

by Change Up on Aug 7, 2008 1:15 PM PDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

If it was in reference to Velez...

...then it should have read “bungling ability”.

If it was about Burriss it probably should say “bunting ability”.

The All-Father is now a Giant!

by EliminateMe on Aug 7, 2008 3:56 PM PDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

What’s Travis Denker done that’s made everyone forget about him?

you can't block the Bocock

by oldjacket on Aug 7, 2008 10:02 AM PDT reply reply   0 recs

Nothing really. It’s just that the combination of his age and our relative depth at 2B probably makes keeping him in the high minors a sensible call.

by rotorueter on Aug 7, 2008 10:09 AM PDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Oh yeah, and what's with people hating on Frandsen?

Of all the “potential” 2b we have, he has by far the most impressive track record.

2007 ML OPS+? 84

Career MiL OPS? .849

For comparison,

Burriss: .684
Denker: .826
Velez: .792
Ochoa: .656

If any of these guys were putting up the numbers Frandsen put up last year (.269/.331/.379) we would be all excited about our future 2b. (Wishing he was showing a little more power, but happy w/ average and OBP)

If Frandsen can recover from his injury, he is far and away the leading candidate for the 2b job (closest is Denker). He’s not the future of the franchise, but he certainly is the most likely future 2nd baseman.

(All the more reason playing Burriss there is stupid)

Eugeniooooooo!!!!

by FairweatherFan on Aug 7, 2008 10:02 AM PDT reply reply   0 recs

unless he is penciled in on the Bill Mueller/Joe Castle track for 3rd.

Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!

by daveinexile on Aug 7, 2008 10:15 AM PDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

This might be what the Giants are thinking. Fransden at 3B, Ochoa SS and Burriss 2B. I’d like to see Manny at SS personally with Denker at 2B, Ochoa being the bench guy.

And when I say like to see, I mean of what we currently have in the organization. I’d obvious wish we had better choices but we don’t right now.

by AngelWillSaveUs on Aug 7, 2008 10:37 AM PDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Yes, I like this too

Frandsen 3, Buriss SS, Denker @ 2.

That is assuming Velez never gets his act together.

Eugeniooooooo!!!!

by FairweatherFan on Aug 7, 2008 10:39 AM PDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Seriously

Fuck you, autoformat. That doesn’t even make any sense.

Eugeniooooooo!!!!

by FairweatherFan on Aug 7, 2008 10:40 AM PDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Just don’t use 2 @ signs in the same post.

Trent Kline: Decentish. Also, my website is called ChatterBalks Dot Com and on it I make jokes about things.

by groug on Aug 7, 2008 11:53 AM PDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

yeah cause that would be stupid

Adoptive father of howtheyscored. The beatings will begin momentarily.

by Goofus on Aug 7, 2008 1:05 PM PDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

i think that is the “best case” of avialible options. Though i think i might be a bit into ‘09 before Denker gets his shot.

Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!

by daveinexile on Aug 7, 2008 11:09 AM PDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

I suppose this is a possibility

That the “Master Plan” is to see Frandsen @ 3b next season, with Burriss leading the pack for 2b.

Perhaps this explains the thought behind trying Castillo @ 2b.

That still leaves a huge hole SS however, and I think Frandsen is a little light hitting for a 3b. Combining that w/ Buriss 2b puts a heavy requirement on the C, SS, and 1B in order to achieve average infield offensive production.

Frandsen 3b and Buriss 2b wouldn’t be the worst thing in the world (and would be better than Castillo 3b Frandsen 2b) but I also don’t think it is ideal.

I would rather look @ someone like Crede for 3b for the next 3 seasons.

Eugeniooooooo!!!!

by FairweatherFan on Aug 7, 2008 10:38 AM PDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

I look at Crede for more then 2 years as a prime candidate to over spend, get “meh” production with frequent trips and flirtations with the DL. Think modern day Edgardo Alfonzo but with out the supporting line up. In which case i ask why do it?

not sure which branch might be answered to posted in both spots.

Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!

by daveinexile on Aug 7, 2008 10:50 AM PDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

You only do it if:

It doesn’t block anyone.

As long is it doesn’t keep anyone from getting AB’s (which, right now, it wouldn’t) then it makes the team more fun to watch and wins us a few more games.

If it keeps Frandsen (for example) on the bench instead of @ 3b, then it would be a terrible choice.

Eugeniooooooo!!!!

by FairweatherFan on Aug 7, 2008 10:56 AM PDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Until they part ways with Boulder Skull we know this is exactly what would happen. Then we would be trying to sort/devolve 5 guys in 2 playing spots. And that’s if Sabean resists his over 33 year old veteran fetish for another year.

Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!

by daveinexile on Aug 7, 2008 11:00 AM PDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

That’s what happens when you surround something with @’s.

Farewell, Ray. We'll miss your smile and your sugar. Welcome, Steve Hammond "Eggs". Throw strikes.
comics | cartoons | Nattowear

by Natto on Aug 7, 2008 11:15 AM PDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

I always like watching people go

WHAT THE HELL I DONT KNOW HOW THIS IS HAPPENING

Bay City Ball

by xanthan on Aug 7, 2008 11:16 AM PDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

I'M IN A GRAY BOX OF EMOTION

Farewell, Ray. We'll miss your smile and your sugar. Welcome, Steve Hammond "Eggs". Throw strikes.
comics | cartoons | Nattowear

by Natto on Aug 7, 2008 11:17 AM PDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Except

When I copied the text and pasted it into another reply, it worked fine.

fine

@ 3b next season, with Burriss leading the pack for 2b.

Perhaps this explains the thought behind trying Castillo @ 2b.

Eugeniooooooo!!!!

by FairweatherFan on Aug 7, 2008 11:26 AM PDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs