Kevin Frandsen or Emmanuel Burriss

Giants officials said that Burriss could become one of the best second basemen in the gamelink where the quote came from
I'm not sure exactly what the Giants want to do, or where they envision Frandsen when he comes back...
I just wanted to see how all of you felt about this matter.
This FanPost is reader-generated, and it does not necessarily reflect the views of McCovey Chronicles. If the author uses filler to achieve the minimum word requirement, a moderator may edit the FanPost for his or her own amusement.
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Obviously I pick Manny but I am biased. :)
Other compelling factors for him: he was the high draft selection. He was fast-tracked to the majors. Yes, the decision to fast track him was ill-advised and I still don’t agree with how they’re using him. But he’s not crashing and burning like his unfortunate buddy Brian Bocock. In fact he’s showing flashes of brilliance.
If Burriss and Frandsen were to be graded they’d both have incompletes on their report cards. It sucks for Frandsen that he had the catastrophic injury this season. This year was as good as any for him to have his chance.
Not everyone subscribes to the “let’s throw Guy X out there and see what he can do” theory like I do, in these times. It worked for Fred Lewis. Will it work for Frandsen? Will there be a time for him to have his chance? We don’t know that. If the organizational philosophy is to still play these nothing veterans and idiot pickups from the scrapheap while crowing “rebuiling! rebuilding!” then we may not see Frandsen get a chance.
It is to say I don’t think the fate of either man is totally in his control. And that’s pretty depressing.
I should have posted on AngelIntheInfield’s post on rebuilding. I want to know who the F thinks it’s rebuilding if Jose Castillo is getting starts at second base over Burriss. There is nothing left to live for this season. It’s over. Fate has been cast. Get that Koopa Troopa looking fool out of there and play the goddamn kids already.
"While conservatives tell you 'leave things alone and no one will lose,' and liberals tell you 'interfere a lot and no one will lose,' baseball says 'someone will lose.' Not only says it - but insists upon it! ... Democracy is lovely, but baseball's more mature." BVCE supports SF Dugout and Manny Burriss.
by BaronVonCurrentEvents on
Aug 7, 2008 9:47 AM PDT
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He was fast-tracked to the majors.
don’t you think that was more out of necessity than merit?
Proud adopted parent of future big league slugger Thomas Neal
by nostocksjustbonds on
Aug 7, 2008 10:33 AM PDT
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In the very next breath I mention the decision was ill advised so yes, it was out of necessity.
"While conservatives tell you 'leave things alone and no one will lose,' and liberals tell you 'interfere a lot and no one will lose,' baseball says 'someone will lose.' Not only says it - but insists upon it! ... Democracy is lovely, but baseball's more mature." BVCE supports SF Dugout and Manny Burriss.
by BaronVonCurrentEvents on
Aug 7, 2008 10:41 AM PDT
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it’s not even really fair to say he was “fast-tracked” is there a such phrase as “lightning-tracked” or something that goes way beyond fast? Somebody could write a book on horribly the Giants “plan” for his development has been.
by FluLikeSymptoms on
Aug 7, 2008 1:26 PM PDT
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except
He isn’t sinking in the majors, and may in fact be progressing fine there, so that book might be a short, meandering mess of sniffling faux expertise.
by haverecords on
Aug 7, 2008 2:40 PM PDT
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+1 to both Flu and have
"While conservatives tell you 'leave things alone and no one will lose,' and liberals tell you 'interfere a lot and no one will lose,' baseball says 'someone will lose.' Not only says it - but insists upon it! ... Democracy is lovely, but baseball's more mature." BVCE supports SF Dugout and Manny Burriss.
by BaronVonCurrentEvents on
Aug 7, 2008 2:50 PM PDT
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yeah, so far what he has done in the majors is very impressive (and surprising). It may turn out that the kid is so good that he makes it in spite of getting jerked around.
by FluLikeSymptoms on
Aug 7, 2008 6:57 PM PDT
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or
he might be the sort that progress better in advanced conditions. He is clearly a smart player who understand the game well (and apparently he’s been something of a student of the game since he was young), and that might allow him to adjust quickly, and pick up more of what he’ll need to learn to be a player at the MLB level.
Remember every player is a unique situation, even though the general pattern of develop still obtains as general pattern. Being thrown into the fire too early often hurts players, but some players need that sort of thing to excel. While it isn’t clear that Burriss is that latter sort, he may well be.
by haverecords on
Aug 7, 2008 9:13 PM PDT
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error
‘general pattern of development’ that is,
by haverecords on
Aug 7, 2008 9:13 PM PDT
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well, if that is true than it is a happy accident of him succeeding in spite of the Giants jerking him around.
Last year he started in high A and after failing there (.156/.233/.180) the Giants sent him down to low A where he did quite well in what seemed like the more appropriate level for him. I find it pretty hard to believe that the Giants saw something in that (his first full season in pro ball) that suggested he really needed to be challenged at an advanced level.
but I hope you’re on to something with that theory
by FluLikeSymptoms on
Aug 7, 2008 11:22 PM PDT
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well, if that is true than it is a happy accident of him succeeding in spite of the Giants jerking him around.
Let’s not go crazy here. Burriss has perhaps adapted to the bigs a little better than one might’ve expected, but he’s been one of the worst hitters in baseball thus far. “Succeeding” may be putting it strongly.
Thus far, Burriss looks to be Juan Pierre offensively. Of course, he’s a solid shortstop, rather than a bad center fielder, so he’s more useful than Pierre. A guy like Burriss could contribute to a winning team. But he’d be more likely to contribute as a bench piece… he’d be stretched as a starter.
by onlxn on
Aug 8, 2008 1:10 AM PDT
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a .270 average makes for ‘one of the worst hitters in baseball so far’ 13 So in 148 AB? Serious?
I generally agree about the bench piece, but I do think Burriss might end up being more. If he can better his plate discipline, and take more walks, he could stick nicely—and he could reasonably achieve this (not saying he will, of course).
by haverecords on
Aug 8, 2008 1:29 AM PDT
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Yeah it was a surprising call up. I doubt the Giants saw something in his first year that suggested to them he needed to be challenged more. (Though they could have seen him correct some of the mistakes he was making in high a, perhaps allowing his transferable skills—that is, those which would transfer to MLB, to do so).
I suspect what happened is that they called him up to spell the tired and struggling Bocock, expecting competent defense and slightly better offense, but found themselves happily surprised at his play (and hopefully, his ability to learn as a sub at the MLB level).
by haverecords on
Aug 8, 2008 1:35 AM PDT
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Burriss at SS, Frandsen at 2B. They’re our best options at both positions.
by rotorueter on
Aug 7, 2008 9:49 AM PDT
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Until Noonan arrives of course.
"While conservatives tell you 'leave things alone and no one will lose,' and liberals tell you 'interfere a lot and no one will lose,' baseball says 'someone will lose.' Not only says it - but insists upon it! ... Democracy is lovely, but baseball's more mature." BVCE supports SF Dugout and Manny Burriss.
by BaronVonCurrentEvents on
Aug 7, 2008 9:51 AM PDT
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That is of course he has learned to take a walk by the time he’s in Fresno.
Can’t wait for his SJ debut next season.
Adopted brother of the AnVil / GIANTSPACE⢠returns!
by SoFa King Mike on
Aug 7, 2008 9:56 AM PDT
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I’m giddy about the 2009 SJ squadron.
"While conservatives tell you 'leave things alone and no one will lose,' and liberals tell you 'interfere a lot and no one will lose,' baseball says 'someone will lose.' Not only says it - but insists upon it! ... Democracy is lovely, but baseball's more mature." BVCE supports SF Dugout and Manny Burriss.
by BaronVonCurrentEvents on
Aug 7, 2008 10:04 AM PDT
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+1000
I wonder if Gillaspie or Posey will start there, also.
It is good to see Noonan has busted out of his recent slump, btw.
by haverecords on
Aug 8, 2008 1:37 AM PDT
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Denker at 2B please.
Neglectful father of David Quinowski
by marcello on
Aug 7, 2008 10:15 AM PDT
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I really do not understand
The argument for Denker over Frandsen.
I do agree that Denker has the strongest case other than Frandsen for the 2b job, but I also think that Frandsen has a slight edge in the here and now.
Frandsen has a higher career MiL OPS as well as some previous success at the ML level. He is also a little older, which means that we either need to give him his shot now or forgetaboutit and send him down the AAAA route (I’m sick of 27 year old “prospects” making their ML debuts).
Frandsen may turn out to be an AAAA player, but I don’t think he has done anything yet to demonstrate that this is the most likely outcome. In my eyes, Denker and Frandsen are fairly equivalent in terms of offensive production, with Frandsen edging Denker out in every category except HR’s.
I’m really not sure why one could desire Denker over Frandsen, based on the #’s.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on
Aug 7, 2008 10:34 AM PDT
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In the short term, I would agree that Frandsen is probably the answer since Denker needs more time in the upper minors. But I would prefer Denker as the long term solution.
I’m curious about Frandsen’s average and whether he’ll be able to sustain it in the majors. If he can’t, he’ll be a terrible player since he doesn’t walk or have any power. Denker, on the other hand, has a good eye and some pop.
Neglectful father of David Quinowski
by marcello on
Aug 7, 2008 10:46 AM PDT
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Prefering Denker as the long term solution
Based on current numbers? – Maybe?
But right now (assuming he rehabs back to previous levels) Frandsen needs to play 2b next season and we can let Denker try to take his job in 2010.
But yes, it appears we are in agreement that today (ignoring DL) Frandsen is the more appropriate choice for 2b.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on
Aug 7, 2008 10:59 AM PDT
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Omar would make a great defensive 2b as well.
And, In fact, I think that Manny would make a great defensive 1b too. Just being great defensively at the position doesn’t mean that is where you should play. You need to have the bat to carry you there, as well.
If there is any position on the infield where this team has something resembling depth, it is second base. Of all the potential Second base candidates, Burriss has both the weakest bat as well as the most chance of being able to play SS (which is quite likely tied with 3rd as our biggest positional black hole).
Bursiss’ bat is going to be lacking for a 2b. It could, however, be sufficient at SS.
It makes, by far, the most sense to play Buriss at SS this season and see if he can stick there. If so, and his production at the plate continues it’s current place, I think that makes him a pretty decent young player.
At 2b, regardless of his defensive prowess, his Bat will always make him below average.
You need to make a LOT of brilliant plays @ 2b to make up for a .311 slugging percentage. Probably an unrealistic #.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on
Aug 7, 2008 9:54 AM PDT
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Medium and long term I agree with you.Short term things get sticky.
Currently the Giants looking at Frandsen, Burriss, Travis D filling in time at 2nd in ‘09.
Personally Frandsen has not impressed ( defensively) me in most of the positions he has played at in the MLB. The expectation being 2nd and my jury is out on him at third. For the purposes of conversation Iāll assume he returns healthy. There is also the possibility he is playing a fair amount at third next year.
Travis D. might still be a half season or more way. In either case when the they bring him up for Gawds sake play the kid!
Thus I have no problem with Burris playing a lot at second ( with some SS time to keep his hand in that position active) next season tell things solidify at second or ( miracles of miracles) third.
Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!
by daveinexile on
Aug 7, 2008 10:08 AM PDT
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I guess I just feel
That Buriss should be playing the bulk of his time @ SS in order to improve his defense there, and he can always slip to second if that is what works out best long term for unforeseen reasons..
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on
Aug 7, 2008 10:22 AM PDT
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I also think
That while Frandsen isn’t going to be a whiz with the glove, he can certainly hit a little (and better than any of the other options).
And defense just isn’t that important in the grand scheme of things. Frandsen’s un-stealler D is not going to devalue his offensive production, much like Fred Lewis.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on
Aug 7, 2008 10:27 AM PDT
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I get you. Usually I would be echoing your words. But these are not yet usual times for the Giants.
I really donāt see anything on the INF free Agent market worth more then a 2 year contract ( maybe Blalock if his option is not used, Crede and Furcal thatās it. ) So that means need to look in house, waiver wire and rule 5 for 2nd, SS and 3rd. If Frandsen can hold down 3rd defensively, Ochoa continues the trend at SS with his glove having Burris hold down 2nd actually might give the team a real infield defense. I think its unlikely the Giants bring in a power bat but they could at least improve in one aspect of the game w/o spending a dime or committing to several years of "meh" from a single player.
And if they did bring ina power bat ( Burrell or Dunn) moving them to First base would make the most sense. Lets the team continue to sift through the "maybe he is maybe he isnāt" O.Fers and gives the Team punch at first. Even if the "D" takes a hit its still a large over all improvement.
Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!
by daveinexile on
Aug 7, 2008 10:39 AM PDT
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crap. time to clarify...
meant to say nothing in the INF free Agent market at 2nd, ss & 3rd is worth more then 2 years. and only those 3 would i consider a 2 year contract for.
Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!
by daveinexile on
Aug 7, 2008 10:41 AM PDT
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After seeing both players in limited action, I’ve gotta think so far Ochoa is the better SS with the glove. I am really impressed with him, and a little upset he wasn’t called up instead of Bocock at the beginning of the year. While I realize the Glen Hubbard era is over at 2B, I don’t mind Burriss’ .311 slugging % there as much because he brings a lot to the game with his legs/bunging ability. He may be able to serve as a second leadoff hitter kind of 2 hole hitter in the future.
by tyrannoman on
Aug 7, 2008 10:17 AM PDT
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It's a problem
Because this team is not likely to be overflowing w/ power at any of the other infield positions in the realistic future to compensate for it.
The best we can hope for over the next 3-4 years is average or mildly above average offensive production from any given infield position (barring some unforeseen emergence).
Putting a .311 slugging percentage @ 2b means that, in order to achieve average offense, we need to find a well above average 1b, 3b, or SS to compensate.
That is a lot more difficult than finding an average 2b and sliding Buriss to SS.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on
Aug 7, 2008 10:25 AM PDT
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Over 3 -4 year terrm I agree Burriss should be at SS.
Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!
by daveinexile on
Aug 7, 2008 10:43 AM PDT
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Absolutely
Burriss at SS is the best short-term solution. Frandsen deserves the shot at 2B next year, baring an Ishikawa-like resurgence by Denker in Spring Training next year.
Of course, none of this matters when Noonan takes over 2B and Posey takes over SS.
Your 2011 SF Giants: the 2008 Augusta Greenjackets!
by Lyle on
Aug 7, 2008 12:58 PM PDT
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Yeah. Since neither of them have the bat at play anywhere else, Ochoa and Burriss should be competing for the starting SS job. The loser should be kept around for a Ramon Martinez-type utility infielder.
I really wish Velez could make enough progress to stick at 2B, letting Frandsen move to 3B. Add Burrell (or Texiera) and the team would look better heading into next season.
Adoptive father of howtheyscored. The beatings will begin momentarily.
by Goofus on
Aug 7, 2008 1:02 PM PDT
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Velez could make a lot more progress in the field
Than he can on the bench.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on
Aug 7, 2008 1:09 PM PDT
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I’m not sure what “bunging ability” is, but it sounds like something nasty.
Adoptive father of howtheyscored. The beatings will begin momentarily.
by Goofus on
Aug 7, 2008 1:03 PM PDT
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I hear it's big in prison
Some guys prefer jelly others like maple syrup.
by Change Up on
Aug 7, 2008 1:15 PM PDT
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If it was in reference to Velez...
...then it should have read “bungling ability”.
If it was about Burriss it probably should say “bunting ability”.
The All-Father is now a Giant!
by EliminateMe on
Aug 7, 2008 3:56 PM PDT
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What’s Travis Denker done that’s made everyone forget about him?
you can't block the Bocock
by oldjacket on
Aug 7, 2008 10:02 AM PDT
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Nothing really. It’s just that the combination of his age and our relative depth at 2B probably makes keeping him in the high minors a sensible call.
by rotorueter on
Aug 7, 2008 10:09 AM PDT
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Oh yeah, and what's with people hating on Frandsen?
Of all the “potential” 2b we have, he has by far the most impressive track record.
2007 ML OPS+? 84
Career MiL OPS? .849
For comparison,
Burriss: .684
Denker: .826
Velez: .792
Ochoa: .656
If any of these guys were putting up the numbers Frandsen put up last year (.269/.331/.379) we would be all excited about our future 2b. (Wishing he was showing a little more power, but happy w/ average and OBP)
If Frandsen can recover from his injury, he is far and away the leading candidate for the 2b job (closest is Denker). He’s not the future of the franchise, but he certainly is the most likely future 2nd baseman.
(All the more reason playing Burriss there is stupid)
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on
Aug 7, 2008 10:02 AM PDT
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unless he is penciled in on the Bill Mueller/Joe Castle track for 3rd.
Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!
by daveinexile on
Aug 7, 2008 10:15 AM PDT
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This might be what the Giants are thinking. Fransden at 3B, Ochoa SS and Burriss 2B. I’d like to see Manny at SS personally with Denker at 2B, Ochoa being the bench guy.
And when I say like to see, I mean of what we currently have in the organization. I’d obvious wish we had better choices but we don’t right now.
by AngelWillSaveUs on
Aug 7, 2008 10:37 AM PDT
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Yes, I like this too
Frandsen 3, Buriss SS, Denker @ 2.
That is assuming Velez never gets his act together.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on
Aug 7, 2008 10:39 AM PDT
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Seriously
Fuck you, autoformat. That doesn’t even make any sense.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on
Aug 7, 2008 10:40 AM PDT
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Just don’t use 2 @ signs in the same post.
Trent Kline: Decentish. Also, my website is called ChatterBalks Dot Com and on it I make jokes about things.
by groug on
Aug 7, 2008 11:53 AM PDT
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yeah cause that would be stupid
Adoptive father of howtheyscored. The beatings will begin momentarily.
by Goofus on
Aug 7, 2008 1:05 PM PDT
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A little light hitting for the infield, but at the tradeoff of getting maximum AB's for these players.
I’ll take it.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on
Aug 7, 2008 10:41 AM PDT
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i think that is the “best case” of avialible options. Though i think i might be a bit into ‘09 before Denker gets his shot.
Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!
by daveinexile on
Aug 7, 2008 11:09 AM PDT
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I suppose this is a possibility
That the “Master Plan” is to see Frandsen @ 3b next season, with Burriss leading the pack for 2b.
Perhaps this explains the thought behind trying Castillo @ 2b.
That still leaves a huge hole SS however, and I think Frandsen is a little light hitting for a 3b. Combining that w/ Buriss 2b puts a heavy requirement on the C, SS, and 1B in order to achieve average infield offensive production.
Frandsen 3b and Buriss 2b wouldn’t be the worst thing in the world (and would be better than Castillo 3b Frandsen 2b) but I also don’t think it is ideal.
I would rather look @ someone like Crede for 3b for the next 3 seasons.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on
Aug 7, 2008 10:38 AM PDT
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what the fuck
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on
Aug 7, 2008 10:38 AM PDT
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I look at Crede for more then 2 years as a prime candidate to over spend, get “meh” production with frequent trips and flirtations with the DL. Think modern day Edgardo Alfonzo but with out the supporting line up. In which case i ask why do it?
not sure which branch might be answered to posted in both spots.
Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!
by daveinexile on
Aug 7, 2008 10:50 AM PDT
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You only do it if:
It doesn’t block anyone.
As long is it doesn’t keep anyone from getting AB’s (which, right now, it wouldn’t) then it makes the team more fun to watch and wins us a few more games.
If it keeps Frandsen (for example) on the bench instead of @ 3b, then it would be a terrible choice.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on
Aug 7, 2008 10:56 AM PDT
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Until they part ways with Boulder Skull we know this is exactly what would happen. Then we would be trying to sort/devolve 5 guys in 2 playing spots. And thatās if Sabean resists his over 33 year old veteran fetish for another year.
Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!
by daveinexile on
Aug 7, 2008 11:00 AM PDT
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That’s what happens when you surround something with @’s.
by Natto on
Aug 7, 2008 11:15 AM PDT
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Except
When I copied the text and pasted it into another reply, it worked fine.
fine
@ 3b next season, with Burriss leading the pack for 2b.
Perhaps this explains the thought behind trying Castillo @ 2b.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on
Aug 7, 2008 11:26 AM PDT
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See? Inconsitency FTW!
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on
Aug 7, 2008 11:27 AM PDT
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the @ signs
have to be on the same line
by Viliphied on
Aug 7, 2008 12:46 PM PDT
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So explain to me
Why, the first time I posted
I suppose this is a possibility
That the “Master Plan” is to see Frandsen @ 3b next season, with Burriss leading the pack for 2b.
Perhaps this explains the thought behind trying Castillo @ 2b.
That still leaves a huge hole SS however, and I think Frandsen is a little light hitting for a 3b. Combining that w/ Buriss 2b puts a heavy requirement on the C, SS, and 1B in order to achieve average infield offensive production.
Frandsen 3b and Buriss 2b wouldnāt be the worst thing in the world (and would be better than Castillo 3b Frandsen 2b) but I also donāt think it is ideal.
I would rather look @ someone like Crede for 3b for the next 3 seasons.
I got the white shit, but the second time I posted it (which was a copy/paste from the original) I didn’t.
fuck if I know…
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on
Aug 7, 2008 12:59 PM PDT
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AHHF UCKING I GIVE UP
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on
Aug 7, 2008 12:59 PM PDT
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It’s better just to write “at” rather than ”@”.
by Natto on
Aug 7, 2008 1:03 PM PDT
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But 'at' means I have to push 2 keys, but using the symbol for it means I only have to push shift + 2. Oh, wait.
I'm adopting a true Giant and an awe-inspring gamer: tk. "Atta babe."
by Mayor of 311 on
Aug 8, 2008 12:26 AM PDT
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Two keys simultaneously >>>> Two keys in succession.
Keys are kind of like sexual partners that way.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on
Aug 8, 2008 12:56 AM PDT
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Because in this copy pasted version, all of your autoformat screwing @’s are missing.
That still leaves a huge hole SS however
Combining that w/ Buriss 2b puts a heavy requirement on the…
Frandsen 3b and Buriss 2b wouldnāt be the worst thing …
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on
Aug 7, 2008 1:02 PM PDT
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Was this on purpose? It would take some serious skills do that.
Less arm, more talk. Raisingcain is a GAMER.
Adopted Giant: Henry Sosa
by raisingcain on
Aug 7, 2008 6:54 PM PDT
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Frandsen
Burriss at SS. Ochoa at Util. Thanks.
by AndOnTheDrums... on
Aug 7, 2008 10:38 AM PDT
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+tu?
Neglectful father of David Quinowski
by marcello on
Aug 7, 2008 10:48 AM PDT
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did you actauly watch frandsen at SS in ‘07?
It would do in pinch but as a steady diet migth as well brake out the pitcure of the bird sitting on the cage while the cat is inside it.
Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!
by daveinexile on
Aug 7, 2008 10:55 AM PDT
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No one suggested Frandsen @ SS.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on
Aug 7, 2008 10:57 AM PDT
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I thought AndOnTheDrums… suggested Burriss & Frandsen at SS. My apologies for misreading.
Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!
by daveinexile on
Aug 7, 2008 11:02 AM PDT
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I believe Masochists are supposed to post in a different thread.
by Change Up on
Aug 7, 2008 11:16 AM PDT
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Hush. or Grant will kick me out.
Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!
by daveinexile on
Aug 7, 2008 11:42 AM PDT
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I suppose this is a possibility
That the "Master Plan" is to see Frandsen @ 3b next season, with Burriss leading the pack for 2b.
Perhaps this explains the thought behind trying Castillo @ 2b.
That still leaves a huge hole SS however, and I think Frandsen is a little light hitting for a 3b. Combining that w/ Buriss 2b puts a heavy requirement on the C, SS, and 1B in order to achieve average infield offensive production.
Frandsen 3b and Buriss 2b wouldnāt be the worst thing in the world (and would be better than Castillo 3b Frandsen 2b) but I also donāt think it is ideal.
I would rather look @ someone like Crede for 3b for the next 3 seasons.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on
Aug 7, 2008 10:38 AM PDT
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Reply Fail, but you get the idea.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on
Aug 7, 2008 10:39 AM PDT
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I look at Crede for more then 2 years as a prime candidate to over spend, get “meh” production with frequent trips and flirtations with the DL. Think modern day Edgardo Alfonzo but with out the supporting line up. In which case i ask why do it?
Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!
by daveinexile on
Aug 7, 2008 10:49 AM PDT
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+1
Frandsen at third, Burriss at second, and a plug-in shortshop (I don’t see much in Ochoa) would lead to some pretty brutal offenses. Better to give second to Frandsen, shortstop to Burriss and look elsewhere for a 3B. If we’re gonna use these low-upside guys to plug holes, they should plug the holes where better hitters are hardest to find.
by onlxn on
Aug 7, 2008 11:27 AM PDT
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Bam!
You nailed my entire thought process in one sentence:
If weāre gonna use these low-upside guys to plug holes, they should plug the holes where better hitters are hardest to find.
That pretty much sums it up. Nicely done.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on
Aug 7, 2008 11:33 AM PDT
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Would viagra help the hole pluggers with low upside?
Adoptive father of howtheyscored. The beatings will begin momentarily.
by Goofus on
Aug 7, 2008 3:26 PM PDT
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i wonder if the leauge tests for it…
Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!
by daveinexile on
Aug 7, 2008 3:40 PM PDT
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1) Just who outside the system would you target for 3rd? And how are they not likely to be Edgardo Alfonzo Jr.?
2) Giants and Brutal infield offenses has been the given for 2 seasons. Why is it not suddenly more relevant? Giants and brutal infield Defense as also been the norm for a couple seasons. Is improving that not a priority because it would cost he team little to nothing?
Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!
by daveinexile on
Aug 7, 2008 11:34 AM PDT
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1) Just who outside the system would you target for 3rd? And how are they not likely to be Edgardo Alfonzo Jr.?
I think they should take a look at Crede on a two or three-year deal. I don’t like Crede much, and I don’t totally trust him… but he seems to be a genuine major-league hitter at this point. Sooner or later, we’ll need a couple of those. The only 3B possibility we have is Gillaspie… I like that guy a lot, but it’s not smart to punt a position because you just drafted a guy.
You don’t rebuild simply by filling every slot with the best-available guy in your system. You do some of that, yeah—the Giants haven’t done nearly enough of that in recent years, and we’re all hankering for them to do more of it. But sometimes you just have holes that should be filled. I think we should regard our hole as 3B, and fill it with a free agent. We have the money and the need. (Trading for Beltre would also make some sense.)
2) Giants and Brutal infield offenses has been the given for 2 seasons. Why is it not suddenly more relevant? Giants and brutal infield Defense as also been the norm for a couple seasons. Is improving that not a priority because it would cost he team little to nothing?
I don’t think the defensive downgrade of the Frandsen 2B/Burriss SS alignment is as big as the offensive downgrade of the Burriss 2B/Frandsen 3B alignment. Burriss seems to be a capable shortstop… Frandsen doesn’t rate as stellar at either 2B or 3B, and not really terrible at either, either. The alignment you prefer might be be a little better defensively, but to be worthwhile, it’d require us finding a shortshop who can field better than Burriss and who can also be one of the top five bats on the team. Guys like that don’t grow on trees.
Bad infield defense is a problem. But it’s not worth solving that problem with three below-average hitters for their positions… that’s missing the forest for the trees.
by onlxn on
Aug 7, 2008 11:47 AM PDT
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re: #1 I could be cool with the risk of 2 years on Crede. But then I except Edgardo Alfonzo type production. I am not saying they are identical just similar numbers and durability. On a team with less roster holes this move have a lot more to recommend it. But that topic is probably better severed in a different discussion. The biggest risk for a Crede ( or Blalock) 2 year contract I can see Boulder Skull running them both out there regardless if their production falls off a cliff. ( See Durham ā07 or Omar this year for examples.)
As for
We have the money and the need. Both true but there is not a product to go get that is a high percentage upgrade. You mention Beltre and to me he his head and shoulders better then this off seasons 3rd basemen in free agent market. Beltreās contract expires next winter. Something to consider.
Re:2 I was curious why the "d" improvement was getting no play from you. Its not like I am in love with the Frandsen at 3rd , Ochoa/ Burris at SS and Burris tell/ when ready Travis D at 2nd alignment but it has 3 things going for it. It up grades one aspect of the game for free. It does not commit the team to multiple years of "meh" or drek production from a single player. And it does not block the possibility of upgrades – wheather signing a better suited Free Agent for ā10 and onwards or better prospect arrives from in house.
Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!
by daveinexile on
Aug 7, 2008 12:11 PM PDT
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All true… I just don’t think slightly improved defense, saved money and flexibility are worth punting on three positions offensively. I don’t see any realistic scenarios where a viable in-house SS or 3B comes along in the next year or two, and next winter’s infield free agents don’t look much better than this one’s.
It’s not that Crede is the right guy… it’s that now is the right time. It makes sense to find patches for ‘09-’10, even if they’re expensive. Crede could fit that bill.
by onlxn on
Aug 7, 2008 12:26 PM PDT
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Beltre. Free agent in one seaon.
Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!
by daveinexile on
Aug 7, 2008 12:28 PM PDT
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does that really matter though?
by stealth snail on
Aug 7, 2008 12:29 PM PDT
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True, and I’d prefer Beltre to Crede. But I’d rather trade for him now. I think there are moves that could make us plausible contenders in this crappy division in 2009 and 2010. No reason to waste one of those years waiting on a guy.
by onlxn on
Aug 7, 2008 12:30 PM PDT
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If Beltre’s contract was not up after next season I doubt he would be on the market. In that reguard we get 2 bites at the apple, so to speak.
Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!
by daveinexile on
Aug 7, 2008 12:31 PM PDT
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No reason to waste one of those years waiting on a guy.
There is every reason to wait the year, if need be. the biggest is a team usually only carries 13 position players. If you can man one the 8 positions with just one slot and get good production on both sides of the ball that kind of player is well worth the trouble to get. Even if that trouble requires waiting a bit.
The other reason is its not like the Giants are built to contend and our window is closing. In fact the window does not start to crack open for another season or two unless we get lucky.
Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!
by daveinexile on
Aug 7, 2008 12:36 PM PDT
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The other reason is its not like the Giants are built to contend and our window is closing. In fact the window does not start to crack open for another season or two unless we get lucky.
See, that’s the thing on which we disagree.
It looks like a window may conceivably open for this team around 2011. I wouldn’t say it’s a given by any means, but we might have some actual high-upside young hitters by then, plus a bunch of pitching talent… seems like we might be able to make some noise starting around then.
But we could also make noise in the interim. Nothing about that 2011 potential is predicated on anything we do with the big-league club now… Bumgarner, Alderson, Sosa and our hitting prospects just need to keep playing their way up the ladder, and Cain and Lincecum need to stay healthy, and we need to not block the progress of anyone with star potential (which, I’d argue, we haven’t).
This is an extremely weak, extremely winnable division. If we spend some money in ‘09-’10, it’s possible that we can make a mini-window before the bigger one opens. If spending on, say, Teixeira, Beltre and Derek Lowe could get us to 84 wins, and 84 wins might win the division, and nobody relevant is blocked in the meantime, why shouldn’t we? We probably wouldn’t win a World Series, but do we have to be bad for no reason?
The only thing we’d risk by gambling on short-term deals this winter is money. We have nothing at 3B and very little at SS and 1B, no matter how much we like these young guys. The team has money. Why wouldn’t we try to become good again?
by onlxn on
Aug 7, 2008 12:51 PM PDT
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The team has money. Why wouldnāt we try to become good again?
We also risk not being able to hold onto and locking up any worth while young talent. In 3 years the Giants get to make a choose on Tim, Cain and Sanchez. We already have a lot of money tied up in Rowand & Zito in those years. They pretty much removes a lot of budgetary slack for the next 3 years for us. We are not poor but we are treading a very thin line. So if signing people they better damn well be worth it or we will be leaving in the Aās world were we canāt sign the talent we devolve/ find. We were differ is my threshold on a valuable free agent is much higher then yours.
I also do not expect the N.L West to be like this next year. I expect It to be something between this and last year.
Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!
by daveinexile on
Aug 7, 2008 1:09 PM PDT
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I also do not expect the N.L West to be like this next year. I expect It to be something between this and last year.
Yeah, this is sort of a key question… going for FAs is more or less wise, depending on how strong one thinks the NL West is going to be.
I think there’s a very good chance it’ll continue to be a crappy division. The Rockies committed to a not-that-great core… they may bounce back a bit from this year, but I don’t see them as a really strong team. As smart as Kevin Towers is, the Padres look real bad. The Dodgers have been Collettied into mediocrity… they certainly have the talent and money to improve, but I don’t know if he’ll put them in that position.
The D-Backs are the likeliest team to put the divisional crown out of reach in ‘09 and ‘10. I certainly wouldn’t put it past them, but a lot of their young ballyhooed hitters are struggling… it’s quite possible that one or two of them simply won’t figure it out. The back of their rotation is somewhat thin. I could see them scuffling around at 85 wins for another year or two.
I think it’s fair to think the Giants couldn’t contend in the next two seasons, but I think it’s plausible enough for us to take a shot at it.
by onlxn on
Aug 7, 2008 1:17 PM PDT
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well if the Stars align and the Giants are pretenders ( or better) in ‘09 the only way to do it is go for a strong D and kids pan out. They can’t get the power bat without selling the window that will open in two years. That would be getting pennies on the dollar for that talent and it will remove any progress the team has made in the last 2 seasons. ( See Astros for current example of the later path.)
Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!
by daveinexile on
Aug 7, 2008 1:23 PM PDT
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I totally agree with this about Crede if we could get a 2 or 3 year deal for him. He’d be a defensive and offensive upgrade over anybody else we could throw out there, as well as give us some semblance of a cleanup hitter. However, he is a HUGE injury risk; hs on the DL right now because of lumbar inflammation, which is related to the surgery he had last season.
by stealth snail on
Aug 7, 2008 12:21 PM PDT
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Nothing personal but If I see the words “Crede clean up hitter” I am going to think Damon Bruce posting.
Just because the 08 Giants would bat you there does not make you clean up hitter. Hell the ‘08 Giatns would bat Feliz in clean up. Enough said on that topic.
If the Giants sign a Crede ( Blalock) you no longer are in the market for a better 3rd base man. So no Beltre. No possible trade of a young arm in a season or two if the current batch of wonder kids in A ball develop.
Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!
by daveinexile on
Aug 7, 2008 12:28 PM PDT
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Why not a possible trade ?
Signing Crede (example) to a 3 year deal doesn’t prevent you from trading for __ 2 years from now to replace him.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on
Aug 7, 2008 12:31 PM PDT
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when was the last veteran Sabean traded whose carrer was not already in the Zombie corpse stage?
With a rational Gm i get your drift though.
Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!
by daveinexile on
Aug 7, 2008 12:38 PM PDT
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Well, if you include FA's
Winn, Rowand, Molina, Omar, need I continue?
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on
Aug 7, 2008 12:47 PM PDT
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Wait, I misunderstood your statement
You mean trading a guy away? Yeah, I dunno – that’s a good one. Durham maybe, he might have another year or two.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on
Aug 7, 2008 12:48 PM PDT
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yup. with another Gm I could go that route. This guy runs the Sandford & Son home for Vetrans.
Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!
by daveinexile on
Aug 7, 2008 12:50 PM PDT
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I agree that Beltre is a better option. But I think we’ll have no shortage of opportunities to move young arms for bats if we actually develop young arms. We’re looking at 3B as our hole, but if we want to become a top-tier team, we should probably look at upgrading every position besides left field, center field and catcher.
by onlxn on
Aug 7, 2008 12:32 PM PDT
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But then we are back to Sabean’s world view. I have a hard time viewing him as not seeing 3rd solved for the foreseeable future because he signed a Crede( Blalock).
See Omar ā08 at SS roster decisions or Durham at second or Feliz last time Beltre was on the market go back to Edgardo Alfonzo time with the Giants for examples of an establish pattern.
Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!
by daveinexile on
Aug 7, 2008 12:43 PM PDT
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It’s true – Sabean has a bad habit for falling in love with these guys. But in a vacuum, spending on temporary 1B and 3B solves this winter would be a good idea. I don’t trust Sabean to handle it right, but it is what I wish he would do.
by onlxn on
Aug 7, 2008 12:52 PM PDT
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agreed.
Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!
by daveinexile on
Aug 7, 2008 12:57 PM PDT
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I just don’t really see how we are supposed to solve the 3rd base problem without going outside the organization. Competing in ‘09 aside, auditioning Frandsen at 3b for a possible future at 2b seems like a waste, considering the perceived “depth” we have at that second.
We have absolutely NOBODY in the organization to play third now or in the future besides maybe Gillaspie, but at this point it’s nothing more than speculation. I remember reading in a post recently where people were talking about him possibly moving over to second as well…
by stealth snail on
Aug 7, 2008 1:02 PM PDT
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All we are saying...
is “give Ryan Rohlinger a chance.”
Your 2011 SF Giants: the 2008 Augusta Greenjackets!
by Lyle on
Aug 7, 2008 1:04 PM PDT
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all i am saying it who outside the organization is demonstrable up grade?
So far the only name agreed upon is Beltre.
Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!
by daveinexile on
Aug 7, 2008 1:12 PM PDT
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Beltre is the best option
Crede is a second, not as good option.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on
Aug 7, 2008 1:12 PM PDT
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Crede is a second riskier option. I can agree with that.
But is he realy an upgrade? We have no idea what his contract might be so it impossible to gauge just all teh risks involed.
Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!
by daveinexile on
Aug 7, 2008 1:15 PM PDT
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His offensive production
Would likely be a solid upgrade over what we can expect out of Castillo or Frandsen excepting an Andruw Jones-eqsue decline.
Frandsen MAY (may) breakout and break 100 OPS+, but that would be unlikely IMO. Castillo never will.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on
Aug 7, 2008 1:23 PM PDT
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I did not mean to sound like his bat was pure crap. More like without the contract terms we have no idea how long he is here, how likely they would play him no matter what, if his health goes south just what we lose etc. Just acknowledging limits to what we can speculate on and the degrees of the risks involved.
Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!
by daveinexile on
Aug 7, 2008 1:28 PM PDT
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Jorge Cantu?
He’s 26, has more runs, RBI, OBP, SLG, OPS, and HR than Crede or Beltre. The Marlins weren’t even sure he was going to start until we claimed Jose Castillo off waivers (wow that was painful to type). With the Marlins’ constant turnover of players, he might not be completely insane to speculate about.
by stealth snail on
Aug 7, 2008 1:27 PM PDT
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Cots has him list as 3 years of MLb time. he might be a very likely canidate in the next 18 months.
Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!
by daveinexile on
Aug 7, 2008 1:30 PM PDT
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as third his glove seeems a little shakey but he his young enough for that to change. I like him as a target better then Crede(Blalock).
Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!
by daveinexile on
Aug 7, 2008 1:35 PM PDT
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Frandsen has the better track record in the minors, so I’m going with him. I like Burriss better at SS anyway. I see Denker as our future 2B though (hopefully).
by Natto on
Aug 7, 2008 11:20 AM PDT
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Matt Downs!
"Don't trust anyone under the age of 30" - Brian Sabean
by Smotheredinhugs on
Aug 7, 2008 11:31 AM PDT
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This is mute point for all intensive porpoises because the Giants will probably sign crappy vets to play these positions.
by xanthan on
Aug 7, 2008 11:36 AM PDT
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NOOOOOOO!!!
Want hope of some year getting better. Need hope. Gimme hope now!!!
Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!
by daveinexile on
Aug 7, 2008 11:39 AM PDT
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I fully predict an expensive Orlando Cabrera-type to render all of this moot.
by rotorueter on
Aug 7, 2008 12:33 PM PDT
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Well I can’t except that!
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on
Aug 7, 2008 1:04 PM PDT
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I think they are looking at
outside options for 3B next year. Sabean thinks this team can move up to .500 and compete in a weak division for the title next year by simply adding one power bat. With Lewis holding down LF from the 3 or 5 spot in the order, and the rest of the outfield apparently set for 2009 (ugh), and Molina here through the remainder of his contract, that leaves either 1B or 3B to add power. They seem to be leaning towards 3B for the upgrade, no matter what they do at SS and 2B.
I don’t think they would gamble on Crede or even Blalock, but I do think they are considering Beltre at 3B as the one tweak they would make to the offense for next year, depending on the cost back to the Mariners. I don’t think you will see either Frandsen or Castillo at 3B next year.
Meet my three little friends: Timmy, Dirty, and Cain
by Buck Henry on
Aug 7, 2008 11:43 AM PDT
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I actually really like the idea of trading for Beltre, assuming we don’t give them anyone of value (which I’m guessing we wouldn’t—it’d mainly be about salary relief for them, presumably).
I’m also not convinced that contending in ‘09 is impossible. We absolutely should not give away young ‘uns to try to make it happen, but spending a little money on black holes in the lineup (3B, maybe SS and 1B, depending on how you look at it) could get us back to .500 faster than people might realize.
We’re in this strange window, where the core isn’t good enough to win but there aren’t really young hitters to build with in the immediate future. Given that, and the fact that the fanbase is used to seeing a competitive team, I think there’s something to be said for trying to compete in this window—I think it could be done without committing long-term money and without blocking anybody interesting for 2011 and beyond.
Honestly, if I were Sabean, I’d think about doing something crazy. I’d trade for Beltre and then offer Teixeira a two-year, $54-million-dollar contract… insane money, but for a short period. I might even offer a short but rich deal to a starter, as well. It sounds crazy, and maybe it is, but honestly, every MLB team is swimming in money… we have the money to at least try something here.
by onlxn on
Aug 7, 2008 11:59 AM PDT
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Then I'll play too;
No matter what we may think of Burriss at SS, and given that they will have a relatively moderate payroll next year, how much better offensively would they be by adding Beltre at 3B and Jack Wilson at SS, to get the team through the next several years until Gillaspie/Noonan are ready? At least Cain/Lincecum would not be wasting fine starts during that time due to a lack of offense.
Meet my three little friends: Timmy, Dirty, and Cain
by Buck Henry on
Aug 7, 2008 12:23 PM PDT
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It's worth a thought...
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on
Aug 7, 2008 12:24 PM PDT
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IAWTC
Crazy money / short years for Tex + Beltre (or even Crede) at 3rd would make this team an instant contender in this division without blocking anyone (really) or constricting the budget when it matters (beyond next 2 years).
But i’ve already voiced this opinion at length.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on
Aug 7, 2008 12:24 PM PDT
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hm
tex won’t sign a small contract, he has no reason to.
Crede might and should be looked at, although the idea of having another Feliz makes me gag.
Beltre should get a legitimate look as well and he might sign for a more moderate amount of money.
by Giant Voodoo on
Aug 7, 2008 1:03 PM PDT
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Tex won't sign 30m for one year ?
I bet he would…
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on
Aug 7, 2008 1:12 PM PDT
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Crede wouldn't sign 35m for one year? :)
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on
Aug 7, 2008 1:12 PM PDT
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fuck
I thought i canceled this.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on
Aug 7, 2008 1:12 PM PDT
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I'll end this
3B – I dunno, FA? Elmo? prop a glove up and pray?
SS – Burriss, light hitting guy and I don’t trust anyone else there for now.
2B – Frandsen, let’s him get away with some bad D and concentrate on “hitting”
1B – Bowker and some platoon partner i’m sure, because why have 1 good player when you can have 2 pretty okay ones?
FUCK WORK, LET’S DRINK!
by Giant Voodoo on
Aug 7, 2008 11:47 AM PDT
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Rohlinger for 3B?
Rohlinger has put together a steady year between SJ and Conn.
He has shown ability to get on base, and while the SLG #s are meh, they compare favorably to Frandsen et al.
IIRC correctly, doesn’t he play some nice D too? He could be a fit for the 2nd half of 09 if the team commits to moving him upto Fresno at the start of next season.
I’m also heavily into recruiting Burrell for 1B. Giants could really use a legit clean-up OB-SLG guy. Offer him 4 years, which should give Big V enough time. Front-load a deal so if Big V is ready sooner, Burrell is easier to move on the back end.
by aGIANTfan on
Aug 7, 2008 1:06 PM PDT
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eh
Not horrible…
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on
Aug 7, 2008 1:14 PM PDT
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i could go for that. Of even Dunn.
the biggest things would have either guy agree and making Bouldes Skull play him at First not in the O.F.
Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!
by daveinexile on
Aug 7, 2008 1:18 PM PDT
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Dunn V Tex
I’m preferring Dunn, even though Tex is a better player. I’m just betting that Tex is going to sign a deal for something in the range of 150m or so, while Dunn isn’t a highly regarded player. If we could get Dunn for something like 20 times 3 with a 20 million option or 5 million buyout, it could really work out.
But none of this matters until the 3rd base problem is sorted out.
by Change Up on
Aug 7, 2008 1:22 PM PDT
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Minky
Here’s a really random one;
how about signing Doug M. for next year?
Plug him in as a platoon at 3B, hitting in the 2-hole. Will provide some good defense, some decent OBP (MLB career .360). Might also be able to teach Burrell some good 1B D or replace him in late inning close games if necessary (much like Philly has done with Burrell in LF in recent years).
Its not the best solution, but better than Joe Castle. As a LH hitter, it’ll complement what the Giants already have in Frandsen, Rohlinger and Castillo. Doesn’t even have to be a strict platoon, but could definitely help the club next year.
by aGIANTfan on
Aug 7, 2008 1:26 PM PDT
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Hmm. So this is a discussion of everything I was trying to round up in my post today. I should probably check these things before I write.
by Grant on
Aug 7, 2008 1:32 PM PDT
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also, look in the Fanshots
whatever those are
Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.
by delorean on
Aug 7, 2008 1:36 PM PDT
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hahhaha
Scooped!
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on
Aug 7, 2008 1:37 PM PDT
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Franny
Hope Kevin Frandsen recovers fully and see some playing time in September. Believe Frandsen can be the starting 2b for the Giants for seasons to come. He seems to be the perfect teammate and a manager’s dream.
See Burriss as a very light hitting middle infielder with a good glove. Let the competion begin.
by wilriv21 on
Aug 7, 2008 1:43 PM PDT
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I hate when I see an interesting topic and by the time I get to stick in my two cents there are already 132 responses. Whatever I want to say on the topic has already been said several times. So rather than read all 132 responses, my opinion is that Burriss will never hit well enough to be a good major league second baseman, Kevin Frandsen probably will, and Ivan Ochoa is more major league ready than Manny is. The 2009 Giants should have Ochoa at short and Frandsen at second, while Manny plays short at Fresno for one full season.
Brian Sabean's new dad: Firm believer in corporal punishment
by rxmeister on
Aug 7, 2008 1:45 PM PDT
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that is logical. This is Sabean era Giants. I realy hate the second fact tends to trump the first.
Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!
by daveinexile on
Aug 7, 2008 2:09 PM PDT
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Yeah, pwned by Sabean.
Your 2011 SF Giants: the 2008 Augusta Greenjackets!
by Lyle on
Aug 8, 2008 10:16 AM PDT
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2B
I agree with the Giants that Manny Burriss could become the best defensive second baseman in the game. I mean he’s ALREADY darn good there. His cover on the bunt to Rich Aurilia avoided a play that had disaster written all over it. He came a LONG way to get to the base, using his great speed, but setting the play up by getting a GREAT jump toward first base even before the ball was actually bunted.
That said, I am quite worried about his hitting—especially from the left side. Manny has no pop, and both infielders and outfielders could play him shallower than they do, without paying much of a power price. The hit he got yesterday was nicely hit. But if the right fielder were playing 25 to 50 feet more shallow as he probably should be, the ball might have turned into an out.
Kevin Frandsen can hit - and the last month of last season he actually was achieving his stated goal of waiting for more pitches he could drive. As Kevin’s number of pitches seen per plate appearance went up, so did his average and his walks. He doesn’t hit well enough to play third base, but he probably fields well enough to play second - IF his hitting holds up. I’m not worried about his batting average. It is his secondary skills I worry about.
I figured the long-term second baseman would be Nick Noonan, but I am now concerned by his very poor K/BB ratio at Augusta. Nick LOOKS like a hitter to me, but I think he needs to make the same adjustment Frandsen and to some extent Nate Schierholtz made - have the patience to look for more balls he can drive. It’s either that or cut way down on his strikeouts. His high number of strikeouts and lack of patience to wait for walks are likely to translate into an unacceptable OBP at the major league level - unless he makes some changes, hopefully including a bit more power.
So now I’m learning toward the just-signed Conor Gillaspie for second base. Conor is now a third baseman, of course, but he is considered to have the athleticism to play second. And his good bat with so-so power would play better there.
The Giants haven’t given up on Angel Villalona at third base, so Gillaspie could be an exciting option for the keystone. Start that duo, them bring in Burriss for defense and either move Angel to first base or sit him.
And if Gillaspie or Noonan has difficulties against southpaws, Burriss would make a nice platoon partner. Manny CAN hit lefties a little.
by sharksrog on
Aug 7, 2008 4:50 PM PDT
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lots of head nodding
and not because of a long day indoors with a whiskey buzz from that other thread
The Burriss lack of power esp as a lefty, like you say, is a major problem when word gets around. He doesn’t set his feet or swing with any body in it. Teams with decent outfielders will cut off many of his hits, and even a gapper is hit so soft if won’t get past them far.
A year at Fresno working with hitting coaches is in order.
Interesting if Conor G could be the 2b and Angel V the 3B, wow. They used to say you don’t even need good hands for 2B, most balls you can just keep in front of you.
adopter/sponsor of "Go, Antoan" Richardson
by foothillsfan on
Aug 7, 2008 5:35 PM PDT
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